Ya know I watch a lot of Dbd UA-cam and I enjoy speculation for reworks and balance. I gotta say, this channel is consistently the goat for putting out logical and cool sounding reworks that still keep the identity of the killer in mind. Excellent work my friend
I always kinda wanted the patrol ring to be like.. misty and not a solid circle so you could be 100% certain on where it ends so you have to be extra careful.
I really like this rework actually! Also, Parry is very on-brand for Knight. It gives him something that makes him feel like more of an oppressive force, as he should, since he's this hulking, massive master-combatant, and currently he just feels underwhelming to face. It would definitely go a long way to helping the power fantasy aspect of him.
The problem is the basic ai. It can't cut off or adjust if it gets stuck as it just runs along the survivor's run path. If they can make the guards in any was smarter, he would be exponentially better
I play and main knight religiously and I am obsessing over him so seeing people care about him and trying to come up with a rework is a great sight. The spirit-knight compariosn was great in the video but I haven't seen anyone compare them further than in this video. Think about the knight's power as a worse spirit's power: you enter the spirit realm in both so you don't see survivors but with knight, you have worse control over movement and it doesn't take yourself where you end your path within the spirit realm but an AI guard. Also, both can be stunned in the spirit realm which I think shouldn't be the case for the knight also because it has been said before that it is a bug. Saying that the knight "doesn't earn" the health state a survivor loses when he uses his power mid chase and puts the guard on top of the survivor is unjust. The spirit doesn't earn to make the survivor lose a health state when she successfully phases on top of them? If she does it, it is considered an expression of skill, but when the knight does it, it isn't? It is the exact same thing with extra steps. The only difference is that even if a hunt starts, it might not even be a guaranteed hit because survivors can easly outrun the guards if they don't just run in a straight line but this is only if and when a guard actually sees them at the first place. If you don't use map of the realm or have the jailer being put down as your guard, if a survivor runs in a straight line away from the guard they outrun the detection range and will never get detected. This is why people try to put their guards on top of survivors and use map of the realm almost always, because that's the only way to guarantee a hunt. Also, a better knight doesn't only guarantee the survivor to lose one health state while chasing them during a hunt, because they could double hit them (hitting the survivor as the knight right after the guard hits them), putting the survivor into the dying state immediately. People might find this power annoying because they think they shouldn't lose a health state just to be able to run away or last longer in chase but if you think about it, the counterplay to billy or the cannibal for example is to force an m1 so that you can make distance and waste the killer's time even more. In the latter situation, people even may be happy that they took a hit because "atleast I didn't go down" but in the knight's situation "it's annoying". The counterplay is the same, force a hit to run to other loop to waste more time just in a different way. Onto the rework concept: It is unclear if the knight would still enter the spirit realm while using the power and stay stationary or would just move slower while doing so like for example huntress holding up their hatchet. The switching between guards is not a bad idea but even within this rework, the jailer would still be the worst guard by far and would become useless within 7 uses since he could no longer patrol freely, so you'd be better off to just switch between the assassin and the carnifex. But it is also a bit unclear for me if the downtime for guards would stack. Let's say I summom the carnifex and after 8 seconds I summom the assassin. Since I used the carnifex right before the assassin, he would still have 8 seconds of downtime. But by using another guard while the carnifex is still on cooldown, would it add the other 8 seconds to it's cooldown? If so, after using every guard (if you use them right after one then another), every guard would be at 16 seconds of cooldown. I don't know which one did you mean in the video but the latter one would be punishing the knight for using his power kind of unjustly in my opinion. How the assassin works is also a bit unclear for me. If he still has the animation of floating towards the survivor before starting the hunt, would he drop the standard after the animation or after? Because in the first case he would also be useless. Also him dropping the standard immediately would make him very easly avoidable because the survivor could just make a circle and pick up the standard almost immediately or if there is another survivor around there they could also pick it up once the assassin isn't on top of it. But if you can successfully defend the standard of the assassin, it would make knight into a kind of better legion because with the assassin, he could guarantee to injure the survivor but then he would just become an m1 killer like legion. The only thing that would make knight better is that he also has the carnifex (and the jailer even if he is not that useful). But maybe I am wrong because legion has movement, can injure multiple survivors, putting big pressure on them and also punish them after mending depending on add ons. Onto the jailer, if I understand right, he would basically be like a watchtower on a gen but for only a few seconds and has no range on his summoning? So if you put him on a generator that doesn't have any survivors near you wasted him completely. Him also being recalled instantly you go near the hunted survivor just makes him even worse. Imagine the survivors completed 4 generators already, all of them or 3 of them are still alive and you physically went to 2 of the remaining 3 to check them and they were at 0% progression. Logically, you'd think that the survivors are at the 3rd generator which luckily is still in green, so you spawn a jailer to it. You see that he starts chasing someone and there are multiple other killer instinct on top of that generator. By you doing this, you only pushed off one survivor while 2 or 3 more are still on the generator and if you go anywhere near there, you make summoning the jailer completely useless. But I also have good things to say, like the killer instinc idea is good and would be useful to some extent. The parry idea I really like, I think it's creative and the knight does need something to reflect his capabilities written in the lore. However, there are some flaws in it that I noticed. For example, it would completely negate smash hit and has no counterplay around it unlike the plague's infection system and adrenaline's interaction for example. Againts the plague, you can cleanse whenever, so it is your fault if you choose to stay infected and lose adrenaline's healing effect because of it. Also him not being able to be stunned would promote "comp dropping" (pre-dropping) pallets like againts the doctor or the cannibal for example. Because if you don't get rewarded for stunning the killer, why should you even try to go for it? And there's also an uncertainty here for me: would the parry negate the stun effect of a pallet also when the knight carries a survivor? If so, this perry mechanic would make the knight single handedly the most hated killer to go againts. I think if it had a cooldown instead a condition of swinging, it could be more bearable but it would make the power more clunky. The overall power rework would make it way more harder to understand and this could discourage new/newer players to even give knight a try. The add ons I totally agree with, I think they are much better designed then the current ones. Makes the devs look like they are clueless to how an add on should be rated and work for certain killers. Half of the current add ons are close to useless because they either have a niche effect or a niche condition. I'd say all of his green and purple add ons are useless compared to his yellow and brown add ons which is funny in a sad way. The iridescent add ons on the other hand, the company banner is very situational and also has almost no effect most of the times and the torn contract is just another generic insta-down add on which lowers the knight's required skill for it's power. But the only add on that I think has maybe a worse effect in this rework concept than the real one is ironically the torn contract. Since you can only summon 2 out of your 3 guards within your terror radius, the survivors that are near the guards are also within your terror radius with maybe a few exceptions if the survivor is at the exact opposite direction of the knight compared to the guard's position and it is not clear if they are already in your terror radius, would they still scream. So I can only see this being useful on the jailer who already has tracking built into him so this would only work if you choose to ignore the survivors on a generator you summoned the jailer to so that later you have a homemade ultimate weapon effect once. Sorry for writing a whole novel, I am just really passionate about the knight and I do want to see him in a better place than he is in right now but the first thing that BHVR should do is fix his bugs and give quality of life changes like being able the summom a guard to break a pallet without needing to take a step back. Overall I am really happy that someome took their time to come up with a rework for him and I am sorry if I critiqued it too harshly
Thank you very much for taking the time to leave such extensive feedback. I'm going to try to respond to the points in the order that they were presented in hopes of keeping things clear. Firstly, with regards to The Knight not 'earning' hits mid-chase with the double chase, this was not what I meant. Sorry if this was unclear. Indeed the double chases as a result of dropping a guard mid-chase is entirely valid as a form of skill expression, similar to The Spirit. The point was that in instances when a guard spots a survivor mid-chase the loss of a health state is almost entirely guaranteed, leading to boring gameplay. My point with the lack of 'earning' a hit was based on dropping a guard on a survivor that is outside of a chase. Whilst the health state is earned by The Knight making good use of an information perk (I found 'Gearhead' and 'Scourge Hook: Floods Of Rage' to be the most effective while testing) the survivor hasn't been outplayed by The Knight directly in a chase, this is usually the source of frustration for players. When a health state is lost, players usually want it to be the result of a chase, though there are exceptions (e.g Plague's infection). You're entirely correct about the requirement to use the Map Of The Realm and I think this is just one of the many problems with this characters design. If you don't use it, survivors can very easily avoid the guards and this leads to The Knight only having zoning as a consistent tool in chase. With this add-on equipped the options available to a Knight are better but can also lead to unhealthy gameplay in an entirely new form. This was something that I had hoped to address in the rework with The Knight not requiring any specific add-ons in order to use all aspects of his power consistently. As I had envisioned it The Knight would move at 3.86m/s whilst performing any of his summoning actions. For the cooldowns, after any Class Action was complete all Guard Summons would enter an 8 second cooldown. The most recently summoned guard would enter a 16 second cooldown. As for the clashing effects, cooldowns would be reset after a Class Action was finished. For example, if The Carnifex was summoned he would receive a 16 second cooldown and The Assassin/The Jailor would both receive 8 second cooldowns. Then if you summoned the Assassin, as soon as he finished his Class Action all cooldowns would be reset. A new set of cooldowns would be applied with The Carnifex receiving the Standard Cooldown and The Assassin now receiving the Extended Cooldown. Rinse and Repeat This way guards would only have 8 seconds between summons if the summoning was varied every time. The Assassin after being summoned wouldn't have any floating animation. He would be summoned to The Knight's current position and immediately drop his Standard. Then he would immediately begin pursuing the survivor and The Knight would need to split up from The Assassin in order to guarantee his double chase hit. This would certainly make him similar to The Legion or The Plague by being able to very easily achieve injuries but not downs using this Guard. The difference is that The Knight would have The Carnifex and his Parry as chasing tools in order to achieve the second hit. The double chase was a difficult thing to work with when considering a rework. Currently it acts as a guaranteed health state which isn't very interesting. If it was to be removed entirely as a concept, you would be alienating Knight players that may enjoy this aspect of his power. However, leaving it unaltered could be controversial, given that it's a very powerful and unpopular aspect to play against. I settled on it being able to guarantee injuries as a middle-ground. What do you think about this? Do you think that this is fair or that there are other options for adjustments, if you think this need changing at all? As for The Jailor, his design was something I went through a number of versions of before settling on this one. Whilst it's true that summoning him to an 'empty' generator would be useless this was the risk reward I had intended. Given that his search radius expansion rate would be 8m/s any Survivor working on a generator that is 'Patrolled' would be guaranteed to be chased. In this way a Knight player would need to make use of information perks or add-ons in order to make effective use of The Jailor and his slowdown potential. Whilst his use would certainly diminish towards the end of a trial as Survivors group up on generators more, I feel that pulling a Survivor away from the objective would still have some slowdown value. Further, the 16m cancelling range was to prevent The Jailor himself being used for 'double chases'. This would restrict his ability to use The Jailor as a form of zoning tool, or to achieve hits in chase. The impact this would have on his utility would vary, I think, depending on the generator spread and the size of the map. Though, I can see that in some instances it may make The Jailor less useful. Do you think that adjustments could be made to this version of The Jailor in order to make him more viable or that a new system would be needed? With the Parry I can understand to an extent what you're saying regarding the pre-dropping of pallets. This strategy, however, would be vulnerable to The Carnifex and allow for a Knight to clear pallets from the map very quickly. Survivors would still want to make some use of a pallet before throwing it or face losing a number of pallets quickly. As for the purpose of attempting to stun, The Knight would be locked into a 2.2 second breaking animation during a Parry. This means that a survivor who forces a Parry could guarantee that they could make distance on The Knight while The Knight is breaking the Parried pallet. For example if a Survivor is on an unsafe filler tile, The Knight may not wish to Parry the pallet at all. If he did, the survivor would be given distance during the guaranteed pallet break and potentially make it to a much safer loop. In examples such as this The Knight may wish to respect pallets knowing that they don't wish to break them with a Parry and give the survivor some guaranteed distance. This would leave The Knight vulnerable to stunning during examples such as this if they didn't wish to use a Parry on a particular loop. Do you think these examples would be enough to offer Survivors the chance to stun him during a chase? If not, do you think that adjustments could be made in order to improve potential gameplay attached to this aspect of his power? Finally, you have raised a very good point regarding this power whilst carrying a survivor. I hadn't considered how this would work during these instances. After some brief consideration, no I don't think it should. Not only is no-one parrying a pallet with a hilt (I don't even know what that would look like), I also think it would be unhealthy and unfun to play against. I certainly think that this rework would be less accessible for newer players but I don't necessarily think that's a terrible thing. Some killers are more difficult than others and considered less accessible to newer players, that is just the nature of some powers. As for the Torn Contract, yes it would activate on survivors that are already within your Terror Radius. This way it would still be useful when either The Carnifex or The Assassin are summoned. After summoning The Carnifex this add-on could potentially alert you to other survivors in the area (similar to how Nowhere To Hide works) or provide the potential for mind-games mid-chase. Further, after The Assassin is summoned this could also alert you to other survivors in the area. This way, if you chose to, you could split your attention between two survivors at once. Do you think this would be enough for the add-on to be useful or that adjustments/a new effect would be needed? Do not apologise for being passionate about something. Ever. There is nothing wrong with enjoying or appreciating something and wanting to talk about it. I'm incredibly happy and flattered that you were willing to leave such an extensive response to this video. I love discussing these ideas and considering potential changes. Your critique wasn't too much, you were never rude or dismissive at any point, only ever raising valid concerns. These points can add to a discussion and allow for me to learn from my mistakes. Being able to hear about different perspectives and discuss them is what I love about making these videos. Finally, I'd be curious to know where you think The Knight sits currently on a tier list and where this concept would place him. Do you think it would be a buff, nerf or wouldn't impact his performance in a major way? With this rework I was focused mainly on trying to make him more fun rather than directly buffing or nerfing him. I'd be interested to know how you think changes like these would impact his balance and whether it would be a good thing or not? Thank you again for the feedback, it's been very interesting to consider.
@@DBDBalanceBeyond Thank you for the response! I honestly didn't expect such a detailed response from you, thank you! I understand that survivors may find it frustating if one of knight's guards make them get hit when they themselves are actually far away from the knight but in my opinion, it's one of those things that depending on the person's attitude and mindset and many other things, is not annoying. Outside a "double chase", guards are very easly avoidable and if you lose a health state in a this situation, I think it is totally the survivor's fault for having bad pathing and I don't feel like they are justified to be annoyed. Also I know that even if they don't get hit, their time gets wasted which also can be annoying but the survivors have to consider that during that time, the knight is completely powerless. About the rework of add ons: Again, I think you did a fantastic job and you did adjusted them in a way that none of them would feel required Now that the cooldowns are more clear for me, I think it is completely fair and would be balanced The assassin is also really interesting for me because I haven't even considered at the time of writing my first comment that he would drop the standard where the knight stands. I think it would create a very interesting dynamic between the knight/assassin and the survivors. But I also think some might find this more frustrating than the curent way a hunt works since this way, it would start immediately so survivors wouldn't have the few seconds it takes for the knight to summon a guard in his current version, to better position themselves or maybe even try to go to a different loop. I think that making the hunts' hits only injure survivors would be a good counter-measure againts the frustration of guraranteed hits every time but may make some players playing knight feel weak/powerless at times. I can't really say if this change is needed or not, the summoning penalty also might just do the job of making it less frustrating for the survivor side, but it is hard to say. I understand the purpose of the cancelling range of the jailor and it's intent but survivors could easly "exploit" it by running around the generator they were on in circles, enableing other survivors that might have been on the generator to stay on it and punish the knight for coming towards the generator since the jailor still isn't that great at actually cathcing survivors (if I didn't miss any additional changes given to the jailor regarding his hunt). I do think that the jailor does need some changing to be more viable because at the moment he is only good for patrolling and essentially nothing else. But I think some minor tweaking to his stats would make him more viable than the current version and doesn't really need such a big change. About the parry, in some maps and places, pallets are so close that even with the carnifex the knight couldn't do much againts comp droppers because of the 16 seconds of cooldown. Also one thing that isn't sure for me is that do perks like brutal strenght and fire up alter the parry breaking animation's lenght? If so, the knight would become very similar to the nemesis in tier 2 and above since both can break the pallets very easly with little slowdown that also gives survivors less time to make it to another loop. Also the 2.2 seconds after parrying is almost the same if the knight just immediately went to break a dropped pallet which most killers do anyway after a pallet gets dropped and if the knight knows how to loop which loops (which way to go in a loop to ensure that the survivor has less options to run to), gives the survivors almost no time to reach anything. About the knight not wanting to parry is totally valid but still has the problem of almost always ensuring that smash hit gets countered completely since if the knight doesn't wish to parry a pallet like as you said for example; a filler pallet, he can just respect the pallet and the chance of a survivor potentially use one of their perks is completely in the knight's hands. It may not be such a big problem as I'm picturing it but knowing the average survivor main, they would complain about this even though smash hit isn't particularly a popular perk. I think the windows to stun a knight would be slim and not many which could cause dissatisfaction since stunning takes a bit of skill but parrying wouldn't take many as I imagine. I think that there could be adjustments or changes to this parry system that could make it better but I am not sure of them. As I said in my previous comment, I think a cooldown would be better than a condition to use the parry or even both but I also said that it would make the power more clunky which I still stand by. Maybe instead of actually breaking the pallet when parrying, the knight would just put his hand in the way of the pallet and pull it up and could recieve a slowdown similar to how the singularity's overclock works when steleporting under a pallet or getting stunned. This could give some level of safety to the survivors since if the knight parries, he only would negate the stun but wouldn't get rid of the pallet. So instead of the survivor needing to run to another loop, they could just run another loop on the current one. This could also be a frustrating gameplay-loop so as I said, I am not sure what changes should be made, this is just an idea I had that I think could be interesting since killers have only 1 interaction with pallets (with the exception of freddy with some add ons and doctor). I also think it is the better choice if the power doesn't work while carrying a survivor, I agree with your decision. I understand and acknowledge that some killer's power are hard to understand and are less accessible to newer players because of that, I only pointed out this concern because the knight is alreay a quite unpopular character since his whole chapter isn't a very liked one. Hopefully the borgo lighting change will change people's view towards the forged in fog chapter overall. As for the torn contract, I think it would be a better alternative to the current one but survivors might find it annoying that whenever the knight summon a guard they get "ultimate weapon'd" just because of an add on even if it's iridescent. In my personal opinion it wouldn't be that bad and would be a great replacement and a more healthier add on. About the tierlist, I don't really ever consider to list killers, I have some idea who would go where but it is also very dependant on settings (for example tournament setting or just a regular basic match) and also dependant on the MMR of the knight and the survivors going againts them. I'd say in an even situation, knight would be C tier or low B tier in a tierlist that goes like S-A-B-C-F (just wanted to clarify this since some people may include more or less tiers in their tierlists). I also don't think this rework would change his placement on the list so much, you did a good job of not buffing/nerfing him but just trying to improve the overall experience of his power for both sides. I think changes like these would be a good thing since that would mean BHVR are open to rework killers almost completely which in my opinion would be a good sign since some older killers do need changes. But realisticly speaking BHVR would never implement such big changes to any existing killer especially after how badly they fumbled the twins rework which is also a bit sad knowing that it just added to the list of things why they will never rework killers that actually have a big need for it. Again, I am very thankful for your reply, I love the knight with my whole hearth and love discussing about him so I am open to further discussions always!
@@f1p1420 Thank you very much for another extensive response. Regarding the guard chases outside of 'double-chase', this is fair enough. Attitude's vary on any number of topics (always something I'm interested to hear about) and this is why I try to keep comments like 'This isn't fun.' to a minimum. Broadly speaking, however, I think it's easier to gauge general survivor opinions rather than killer opinions and this is why I usually focus on these aspects in videos. As for the earning of hits outside of a chase, as far as I know, a guards chase speed is related to the length of the patrol path that was drawn. This is based off of what I remember from the changes made soon after the release of Forged In Fog, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. As such Spirit Knight plays that dump a Guard on a survivor from a great distance can lead to the guards chasing at an increased speed and, on rare occasions, earning hits before the Standard even spawns. Also I noticed while playtesting 'Spirit Knight' for this video that the number of disconnects/giving up on hook instances was far greater than what I normally experience. This may be due to the survivors I matchmade with being less willing to put up with gameplay they don't like compared to most players, I'm not too sure. It was based on these results that I decided to include the segment discussing the negative attitudes of survivors towards this killer. To what extent do you think 'fun' should be considered when discussing balance? As you described, instances of getting hit by a guard outside of a chase are fair but not necessarily fun, depending on attitudes. Is that something that should be considered and if so, to what extent is it important? Personally I think fun is the most important aspect of design but also the most difficult to gauge, there will always be a variety of opinions. With The Assassin, I had thought that the system might be a source of frustration given the difficulty in countering it. I think in most instances that it would be an entirely guaranteed hit but that would be acceptable, given the requirement of The Knight to earn the second health state in a chase without using this aspect of his power. I based this off of the current interaction with The Legion. The Feral Frenzy is a guaranteed health state which most players accept, knowing that it cannot be used to instantly down a survivor. As for The Jailor, doubling up on generators is something that I had thought would be an inherent part of the survivor counter play. Typically survivors want to split up on generators and repair separately. This power would encourage players to co-operate in order to guarantee repairs on an important generator continue but this would be less efficient in terms of repair progress overall. Further, I had imagined that the Jailor would be used to 'Patrol' generators that are far from The Knight's current position and thus running towards The Knight in order to cancel the chase would have limited potential. Another person had suggested that The Jailor shouldn't be able to 'Patrol' the same generator multiple times in a row but that after a number of different 'Patrols' the original 'Patrol' would become available again. This way a Jailor couldn't be spammed onto the same generator constantly but could be used more than seven times per trial. I was quite fond of their idea and would be curious to hear what you think? Further what alterations would you suggest to The Jailor in order to make him more viable? I wanted to make it impossible for The Jailor to achieve a hit unless the survivor misplays massively and thereby be focused on slowdown. Do you think this is the way his chases should work or that hits should be a possibility in some instances. With the Parry, perks that alter break speeds such as Brutal Strength would not impact the Parry speed, only the Dried Horsemeat add-on would be able to increase the speed with which a Parry is performed. However, perks that activate after a pallet is broken (such as Spirit Fury or THWACK!) would activate after the pallet has been broken. As for the potential of mind games at pallets, the presented form of the Parry would limit their capability. Another person had suggested that Guard Summons should be tied to the Active Ability button entirely with swapping occurring on a tap and summoning be activated on a hold. This would leave the power button free to be used as a dedicated Parry button. While Parrying The Knight would move slower/not move and if a Survivor predicts that he will attempt a Parry, they could gain distance. This way the Parry would have a similar prediction pattern to The Huntress with players attempting to ascertain when a Parry is or isn't going to occur and drop a pallet accordingly. What do you think of this idea? I thought it would be interesting to play around with and offer more potential for mind games. As for the undo-ing of a pallet drop, this could also be a different option. To be honest though, I think in most instances a player would rather eliminate a pallet (especially a safe one) rather than undoing the drop. Depending on the nature of the Hindered applied this could either be very powerful (similar to a pre-nerf Scamper that basically ignores the pallet drop) or underwhelming (if the Hindered is too punishing) for players to use. Do you think that a system such as this would be difficult to implement fairly or that other restrictions would be needed? It's never a bad thing to consider accessibility, I just think that some powers are inherently less accessible and sometimes trying to make them more accessible can lead to a reduced skill-ceiling or alienating current fans. The killers that I think should have accessibility at their core are the universally available ones such as The Trapper and The Wraith. These are the killers most likely to be used by newer players and that's where accessibility should be a greater consideration. Do you think that any changes could be made to this concept in order to improve accessibility in any way? For the placement of this killer on a tier list, this is interesting. I personally would have placed him within the B tier but that's just based on personal experience (I'm no Knight Main). I'm glad to hear that you don't think the changes would alter the capability of The Knight massively, only seeking to improve the enjoyment for both sides. This was the focus of the rework, I just want such a cool character to be more appreciated in his gameplay. Whilst being able to see great overhauls like these would be cool I definitely see these videos more as a way to start conversations about ideas rather than making serious suggestions for changes. BHVR are never likely to make changes based on these ideas and that's not what I want these videos to be. Instead being able to have discussions like these is the real reward, thank you very much for being a part of it. Finally describing the Twins rework as a 'Fumble' is very generous, I would use more severe descriptions. Thank you again for taking the time to talk about these ideas, it really means a lot.
@@DBDBalanceBeyond Thank you for another response and sorry for the wait, I sat on some toughts since the Anniversary chapter PTB and it's killer, the lich's power has some resemblence to this knight rework. To my knowledge, each guard has a set speed for their hunt regardless of the patrol path the knight has made for them. Maybe I know it incorrectly but I haven't seen a difference in their chasing speed. Regarding the "spirit knight" or any type of gameplay with the knight, I surprisingly didn't experience much DCs or hook give ups or even any bugs at all which is very strange since whenever I see others play knight they always experience some bug with him that is the result of his power's spaghetti code. I think fun shouldn't be the main reason around a balance change but also have to be considered and not forgotten. It is an important aspect and without it, something could become hated for example skull merchant. About the jailer, the suggestion of the jailer being able to patrol the same generator after some use would make him much more useful and wouldn't be the definetive worst guard out of the bunch. I think this would make enough of a difference to make him more viable and less frustrating to use at times. Also having the jailor's main use being only slowdown and not hits would be good in my opinion. As for the parry, I like the base idea of it I just don't/didn't think it would be a fun thing for the survivors to face. But I still think it's a good idea nevertheless. And for the picking up pallets, the knight would want to do that instead of destroying the pallet to maybe secure a hit on the survivor he is chasing more easly. As I said earlier that the new upcoming killer, the lich, has a power that can pick up pallets which I found really surprising when I first saw it. Seeing this interaction in game makes this concept easier to design. The lich can use the mage hand whenever he is nearby a pallet but slows him down a bit making it more fair for survivors. The knight's parry would be similar, but he would need to stand in front of the pallet when it is dropped to lift it back up. It could be an animation between 1-2 seconds while the survivor could try to run away to another tile or a closeby window depending on what kind of loop they are currently on. For example, on a jungle gym tile, if the knight parries the pallet and if the survivor doesn't stand in front of the pallet meanwhile, the survivor would make the window to stay safe. This would make it so that the survivors have to be more careful about where they'll go after the pallet drop. Also, I mentioned that if the parry would work this way, in my opinion it should have a cooldown which I still stand by, because it would eliminate instances where the knight could just repeatedly pick up a pallet on a loop where the survivor is isolated because there isn't another loop near and since the knight doesn't break the pallet technically, he could bloodlust the survivor on that one loop without a problem. About accessibility, I don't think this concept could be made more accessible, but it could be more accessible than the current power if the in-game power's description in the menu would speak about every induvidual guard and their capabilities but I think it's a necessity when they would all act much different from eachother. These concept videos are great and even just to have these conversations about ideas to ptentially changes thigns within the game we love and play is great. I really liked your shape rework concept since recently I started playing him to get his achievements. I think that rework concept was totally fair and would be much much better than the current evil within power. I also thank you very much for having these conversations with me. It means a lot also for me!
This is fantastic to see, the only thing I wish is that this conversation is in a more organized format, it’s hard to read and remember everything looking at it in post. I feel that this was made from the perspective of playing against knight which when paired with the perspective of a knight player, leads to greatest possible outcome I feel. I just want to see this in a more organized format. Now actually contributing to the conversation itself, even if I’m abysmally late, with the carnifex no longer being able to initiate a hunt, audio file will become useless but that’s just something that would hold the devs back (and yes, that sounds stupid but the devs are weirdly inconsistent and make dumb decisions a lot so, just a thought) the current path system may be quite flawed as it is, I think that’s mostly because of a few things the devs didn’t consider or account for. But I think that a full rework like this, while cool, is not only somewhat unnecessary, (as I think the path system works but needs a tweak and a change in how it works.) but is also risky. After all, look at the twins ptb recently. The devs don’t necessarily look at the player base when it comes to HOW they do their reworks but also just how bad it actually was. I’m sure they learned from that mistake, but I think we should stay a bit more grounded as I believe that the current one can work. As a knight main, here’s what I would do and what I would expect a knight “rework” to ACTUALLY look like, versus what could be wishful thinking. First instead of patrols being a set amount of time, they only traverse the path once. From the beginning of where the Knight spawns the guard, to where the knight was when he begins the patrol. For the Carnifex and Assassin. They despawn immediately once they reach the end. The Jailer still needs to specialize in the patrol, so he can traverse the path a total of three times, ending where he started. The point of this is that the time spent patrolling is dependent on how long the path is meaning, that the braindead part of the zoning is now removed, since instantly dropping a guard would just cause the guard to immediately despawn once they take a single step and I like the idea of being able to create paths as there’s lot of creative things that you can do with this. With this limitation in place, Knight players will have to get a bit more creative with their paths if in chase, and this will generally neuter the more braindead aspect. Now of course zoning is still not necessarily fun to go against which is the main, not that it’s too strong, just kinda boring. Well, with the way the game is, sometimes you’re just gonna get hit, hell, nurse counter play consists of “die in the right spot.” Sometimes you’ll get caught off guard and out of position, and you’ll be punished for it. If the devs were to take a more grounded route like this, there’s more changes I would make to knight’s base kit, but not now, need to eat, and I’d like to hear your response in case you have some way to completely disregard everything I said, no matter how unlikely that may be.
Wonderful Video! As a Knight player I was really worried about preserving his Macro-based play but I think you did a wonderful job. There are some issues I'd like to address: The Jailer feels too restrictive. Only being able to use him 7 times in a trial before becoming dead weight doesn't feel great for The Knight,. I think maybe changing the Jailer's summoning restrictions would be good, such as allowing the jailer to patrol a gen again if he has patroled another 2 already, or maybe allowing the jailer to patrol any objective (Totems, exit gates, maybe even allow him to patrol pallets that haven't been dropped)? He could also count as a regression event instead, forcing the Knight to choose between applying pressure with the Carnifex or gaining info with The Jailer Additioanlly while I enjoy the idea of the parry, it should have more counterplay and more reward. Ealier in the video you mentioned the guard rotations being on the Active Ability button. I think moving the guard summons to the Active Ability button would also be a good idea, so you can swap guards by tapping (like switching clown bottles) and summon them by holding (Such as reloding with clown). The opens up the Power Button for parry. Pressing the parry button would drop the knight into a stance and prevent him from moving. Getting hit with a pallet while parrying breaks the pallet and greatly reduces the stun duration. Little nitpicks but great video overall! I love seeing your reworks and greatly appreciate someone who keeps the Multi-task nature of Knight in mind when reworking him!
I love your idea for the parry! I think the original idea for it was really dumb, because you could just turn your brain off and swing through every pallet, so survivors would just be forced to pre drop, flattening all mindgames into one monolith. Your version would instead create a much more complex dynamic, with all kinds of mindgames and fakes.
Thank you very much for the support and taking the time to leave some feedback. With regards to The Jailor, his limited usage was something I had considered. My main focus was on attempting to prevent the spam that is often seen with 'Spirit Knight' gameplay. I think that requiring several other patrols before being able to 're-patrol' a generator could be an interesting middle-ground that would reduce the spam but leave The Jailor feeling less limited. With that said, the search radius expansion rate would be 8m/s meaning that any survivor working on a generator whilst it's being 'Patrolled' would be guaranteed to be spotted. The focus was on The Knight making use of information perks and add-ons in order to know when to summon the Jailor and guarantee that chase. Do you think that this would need to be adjusted in any way, if The Jailor were able to patrol a generator multiple times per trial? As for the Parrying system. Yes. I had wanted to have a dedicated button for Parrying in order to make it more interesting as a power but was limited by having used up the 'Power' button and 'Active Ability' button. This shifting around of button prompts would make the system more interesting overall and allow for more mind-games. I think my only suggestion would be that The Knight could still move while in his 'Parrying' stance, just at movement speed that is slower than the Survivor. This way, the Survivor would still gain distance in chase but not a massive amount. I imagine this would all depend on how long it takes to activate/de-activate the stance. What are your thoughts? Do you think that any other adjustments would need to be made, given that the Parry would be more difficult to pull off? Finally, you describe yourself as a Knight player. I'd be curious to know what it is that you enjoy about him? He is broadly considered to be an unpopular character. I'd be interested to know what it is that you enjoy about him, I always find it interesting to hear about different perspectives.
@@DBDBalanceBeyond I think reducing the expansion radius to 6 m/s would be fair if the Jailer could be summoned multiple times. The internet for my idea of requiring 2 other gens to be patrolled was to stop a 3-gen situation where survivors cant work on a gen. If you want to keep the expansion rate the same then maybe a short delay (about 1.5 seconds) before the Jailer begins to expand his search radius could be implemented to prevent instant-hunts, seeing as how it appears that the Jailer is supposed to be the Information/gen defense part of The Knight As for my idea for parrying it would be a tapped ability that instantly puts you in the parry stance (which visually would look similar the Sqaure Off ash of war from elden ring or the actual Ox guard in fencing) which is why I put the no-movement limitation. It would punish The Knight for being careless or greedy, but allows him to instantly punish survivors who mis-time their stun. When the Knight successfully parries a pallet or other stun (such as head on) he would swing the blade up with the animation lasting 1.25-1.5 seconds (I'm not sure which I prefer) so survivors can still make some distance while still being rewarding for the knight. Hitting a pallet with the parry attack breaks it, and hitting a survivor with it will remove a health state. finally my favorite part about knight is his Macro-playstyle. I love sending guards out to pressure survivors while I chase someone else. I love getting last-second gen hits with a guard forcing survivors to scatter as I approach. I love watching someone panic as I send out a guard to interrupt their healing and watching as their progress goes down due to sloppy butcher,. He fills a niche that most killers, who's powers are best used at preventing loops (and that knight can do to a lesser extent) don't fill. Also the sound design in spot on, and I love the comically dark aesthetics of The Knight.
@@zhadmina2214 Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. I think that either of the suggested alterations to The Jailor would make for a good middle-ground. With one of them in place and an extended cooldown applied you could reduce the number of different patrols required to one i.e no generator can be 'Patrolled' twice in a row but you could have 'Patrols' between two generators on a cycle. It's interesting how you've described the Parry working. I had imagined it working slightly differently but requiring a small 'wind-up' time, with the ability to move during this window. An instant stance change would allow for players with a good reaction time to initiate a Parry even if their opponent took an unexpected action. Further I had only imagined that it would activate on pallet stuns. Having it work in conjunction with other stunning effects would be interesting as well, I hadn't considered this as a possibility. Finally it's interesting to hear about these aspects of Knight appreciation. Having briefly read through some comments I've seen quite a few players describing themselves as 'Knight Players/Knight Mains'. I wasn't aware that there were so many people that enjoyed playing as him. I think it's because, as you describe, he fills a niche macro playstyle. With this rework that was something I was hoping to maintain, with any rework it's difficult to decide to what extent you should alienate current players. I personally find myself in a strange middle-ground in which I *want* to enjoy Knight, I just don't. I love the character design including animations and sounds. I just find the gameplay to be too clunky and uninteresting for my own enjoyment. Thank you again for taking the time to talk about these ideas, they're awesome to discuss.
As a Knight player I both like and dislike things about this idea I like the idea of cycling through them and having to look at the terrain to summon them, but I'm not a fan of each guard only doing certain things and not all of them being able to chase. I like playing knight because I love the ability to split up pressure. But my problem with splitting up pressure doing double chases is 9 times out of 10 if a survivor is competent, the guard is going to lose them or the survivor is going to grab the standard. I don't really think it's fun to lose the identity of Knight being this multi or double chase machine that he's capable of being to only just being exclusive to Assassin and Jailer. I firmly believe all 3 of them should be able to be flexible, but certain ones are better at their own actions like how they are now. Carnifex being better at breaking down the environment, Assassin chasing, and Jailer zoning survivors out as their current specialties should be what they're better at. But I still think they should all chase. I feel like the parry could be problematic with some perks. If you paired it with coup you'd be chewing through so many pallets at a loop. But if it worked in a similar fashion to how blight can use his power to hit a pallet, I can kinda understand its use. I like the summoner and double chase aspect of knight is why i really like playing him. I just hate how buggy his patrol path is.
Thank you for taking the time to share your ideas. This is certainly a viable alternative. Whilst I focused on each guard having a specific role and The Knight needing the right tool for the right job, having all guards be able to perform any action could also be viable with this rework. This would reduce but not remove the restriction on The Knight's actions during a cooldown. My only concern with this is that there could be instances where a guard is summoned to the wrong environmental cue based how they're selected. I think that, though, would be a quality of life issue rather than any fundamental design issue. Would you have guards retain certain aspects of their power if this was the case? For example, under the rework concept The Assassin would chase a targeted survivor for 16 seconds. Currently The Carnifex is able to chase for 24 seconds, would you retain this aspect as well as his improved break speed?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond Assassin chases less because he's the fastest of The 3 If you redid the speed and chase duration of all 3, I'd even be okay with that so long as their AI pathing was less stupid
As a knight main this video is very interesting, well thought out and does not remove what I love about knight and his identity. It sounds very practical on paper but I would need to test a in game version of it to sure but overall a very good rework concept
9:46 you can still get insta downs with this because for a insta down you let the guard hit the survivor and then you hit them after so t doesn’t matter if the guard can down
Thank you very much for taking the time to leave some feedback. Under this concept, having The Assassin strike a survivor would cause The Knight himself to immediately enter a 2.7 second cooldown. During this animation he would be unable to launch a basic attack and thus the 'double hit' would be denied. The intention was to make The Assassin effective at gaining the first health state of a survivor but never able to be used to inflict dying.
Thank you very much for the support. I'd be happy for you to share these videos with anyone if you wish. Adding more voices to the conversation allows for more critique and discussion, which is never a bad thing. My only request is that you don't spam anyone, I imagine that could get annoying quickly.
At first, I thought he would be too weak when u said assassin couldn’t down, but the parry makes up for that beautifully. It gives the knight that little bit of edge he needs to end a chase and makes it more fair for the survivor now that they have more options other than run to the next loop. This rework is perfect. It would be hard to code in the parry due to issues of timing, but still.
As a fellow Knight main,i like the concep. Just a few things. - Jailor with limited used is not cool, i would rather have other effect but with no limit. What if: --- Summon a jailor that doesnt move, in his (16-32 meters) radious this things could happen. Survivors are hindered X%/Killer instinct/Survivors buffs goes out 100% faster and debuffs stay frozen (like fearmonger in a gen)/Apply exhaust. This make jailor a ""support"" guard that doesnt chase but help knight or weakenss survivors. - It would be neat if 3 purple addons buff guards in a way that help/represent 3 knight perks. In general, yeah good concept, still some pincer attack with Assassin and still commanding your guards in game.
Thank you very much for the support and taking the time to share your ideas. For the Jailor, a single patrol per generator could certainly be too limiting. The focus was on preventing a Knight from being able to constantly harass the same generator continuously. A suggestion from another person was that the Jailor would need to Patrol a number of other generators before a generator could be 're-patrolled'. This way The Jailor couldn't be spammed onto a single generator but wouldn't be limited to a maximum of seven or eight patrols per trial. Do you think this would be a good middle-ground to stop The Jailor from feeling so limited? Your options for other effects are also really cool. I especially like the idea of being able to pause negative effects, this could be really powerful in tandem certain status effects. If you like the previous suggestion for reducing the limits on a Jailors patrol, the Cold Steel Manacles add-on would need to be reworked. Adding the buff removal/debuff extension to this add-on could be a way to include this idea. What do you think? The ability to manipulate the duration of status effects is really unique for a killer and I think it'd be awesome to see for The Knight. For the Purple add-ons this could be cool to see. Personally however, creating an add-on that mimics Hubris may have limited utility. The Knight would have the ability, with The Assassin , to gain injuries very easily. I think having an add-on that easily injures a survivor or applies Exposed may have limited utility. As for Nowhere To Hide and Hex: Face The Darkness, I think that these could be awesome to see in a diminished capacity but as an add-on. Do you have any ideas for what this could look like?
My rework was to make it so you summon and play as a chosen guard, and each guard got a personal buff / attribute. Assassin vaults and deep wounds, carnifex break stuff fast, and jailer inherits perks from Knight.
Gotta say I'd miss the patrol mechanic when it comes to countering bully squads, something only the knight could reliably do. Incorporate that and its pérfectement
My rework: knight can choose between guards and can summon all the guards all toghether at once (if a surv is chased by a guard they wont be chased by an another one) this can ideally lead to all survs being chased 3 of them by guards and one of them by the knight ( this gives the knight the basekit slowfown that he needs) however if u choose to summon 2 or all 3 guards at once the cooldow for the last guards knight summoned will increase. The map of the realm and speed boost for pathing will be basekit and the range of path will be increased. Carnifex and jailers speed will be set to 106 and assasin will be 115. This was the basrkit idea i have for the power but i nerd more thinking for the add-ons
dbd map desing is made for 1x1 chases, being 2x1 is guaranteed hit most of the time, 4x1 would be overkill and boring for everyone, but he should be able to choose the summon, that i agree.
@@aliazrael9077 yes man but nothing would stop you from bodyblocking the paths with the other guys, i like your idea but ppl would abuse this more than trying to make the area control Knight that you are talking about, but yeah with some proper code it could be done i guess, like making the chased surv immune to bodyblocking by the other summons
This is great however a few points to note so I’ll start positive parry idea is fantastic unique counter play on pallets specific to that killer however parrying is a timing thing for me instead of tied to the basic attack you can maybe press M2 or Alt at a pallet to trigger a parry punishing you if the survivor doesn’t drop the pallet but rewarding you if they do. Next I feel both the carnifex and jailer are very limited in this version of dbd both due to limited gen kicks and pallets for the carnifex and jailer limited to 1 time per gen (outside of the one add on), the jailer really makes me think of locking down an area and preventing an easy escape there for my idea for the jailer wouldn’t be to lock down gens but instead to lock down an area instead you can put him on gens 1 time but you can also place him anywhere this would say cause the entity to lock out a 20m radius around the jailer locking down pallets unless the standard next to the jailer is claimed? Just an idea not perfect I know but some tweaks/ adjustments would do it better. Carnifex is a difficult one due to yes he his just the big guy break stuff guard so I’d imagine his numbers should be tweaked to make him worthwhile due to his limited usage. All in all tho some very good ideas from yourself Cameron looking forward to seeing more and if you see this let me know what you think! 😀
Idw my brain was following alot like “yes its like freddy you interact with highlight objects” but after analyzing…. wouldn’t it be better for Jailer and Assassin if they worked like the freddy traps specifically? Yeah you lose the map pressure from Jailer but youd be rewarded by placing him near a gen by sacrificing time walking there (Plus it would get rid of the get patrol limit which is not bad but again just a idea you get more Jailer use but have to go and place them)
Thank you very much for taking the time to leave some feedback and share some ideas. With regards to the Parry, this was something I had considered. I opted for a simple system of activation based on the console player experience. For PC players, adding an extra button in order to activate this feature would be simple enough. However, as I understand it (though I have no personal experience of playing DBD on console), players on console are very limited on input bindings. With so many interactions in the game there isn't an option to add other interactions with new buttons. I think this is why all killer powers can only be used with combinations of the 'Power' button (M2 on PC) and the 'Active Ability' button (Ctrl on PC). This was why I suggested the activation for a Parry to be based on an interrupted basic attack. With all that said I certainly think a dedicated button would be cool and definitely make these potential interactions more interesting. If any console players happen to be reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge of the console side of this game is very limited and entirely based on bits and pieces I've read/heard in videos, comments and forum posts. As for The Carnifex I had thought that whilst his usage would be slightly limited, there could be a few advantages to his usage. First, he would be capable of breaking pallets and walls without The Knight losing too much distance on the survivor (depending on the safety of the pallet). Further, the ability to break pallets that are up to 12 metres away would be good for dealing with Survivors that might pre-drop pallets in order to avoid the Parry. Do you think that these instances of value would be too limited for The Carnifex? Further, his capacity to damage generators could reasonably be applied mid-chase, improving slowdown and potentially activating some perks such as 'Nowhere To Hide' that could be useful in chase. Again, do you think that these would be too limited to make The Carnifex useful? You mentioned that some numbers could be tweaked, which ones did you think would be useful to adjust and why? Finally for the Jailor, this was a design that went through many versions before I settled on this one. Whilst I like the idea of The Jailor being able to lockdown an area I personally went with an option that resembles his current strengths more. At present he is focused on tracking Survivors with a wider search radius and longer Patrol duration. This was something I was hoping to maintain under this concept. The idea was that, with an 8m/s search radius expansion rate, he would be able to guarantee a chase on any Survivor that is working on a generator he 'Patrols'. This way the focus would be on a Knight player being able to use information perks or add-ons to decisively guarantee chases and provide slowdown. Do you think that this wouldn't be consistent enough or that the numbers are too limiting? Further, whilst I like the idea of him locking down an area I fear that depending on the implementation it could lead to zoning gameplay. If the summoning grants enough distance, the survivor could simply 'hold W' in order to bypass this aspect of his power. If, however, minimal distance was granted could this become too oppressive? The Knight under this rework concept would be able to easily injure a Survivor thanks to The Assassin, do you think that blocking pallets would be too oppressive? I'm not sure where the happy medium would be, though I'm sure that there could be one. I'd be curious to explore this idea more, as you say The Jailor does make you think of someone that traps Survivors in some way. I think that perhaps summoning a Jailor to Patrol a generator whilst The Knight is in the search radius could apply some effect to Survivors within the search radius but not apply the chase condition. What do you think?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond Hey sorry for getting back a little late for starters the parry system: Square or X on console is definitely usable i play on console mostly myself and for killer i'm not sure if i've seen that input be used once. Carnifex you make some good points on the whole summon aspect and yes the 12m distance to send the Carnifex to would be helpful but his aspect and useage is highly subject to RNG after some thought maybe gens he kicks apply some sort of status effect for X amount of time like a mini dragons grip but maybe not exposed this would give you a reason to get more regression value than a regular kick maybe even killer instinct or the new haunted status effect you mentioned? my whole thought process for this is mainly that a big problem in the longer term would be that you eventually run out of pallets/ gens to kick forcing you to use the other 2 guards and with the jailer also having limited usage you have to accept the longer cool down of continuous use of the assassin because you are forced to use him due to the limited use of the other 2 guards. hope that makes sense? for the jailer if a zoning play style is a worry maybe he can have 2 separate functions the first being he auto hooks survs similar to pyramid heads torment cages denying some perk usage and the other is he can target survs similar to the assassin but maybe he just gives them the hindered but cannot actually damage them himself and after a successful hit the effect goes away similar to how the guards work now a successful hit while the jailer was active would give the jailer an extended cooldown from his normal cooldown so instead of 16 i think you said it would go to 24 and this could not be reduced? appreciate you replying definitely intrigued for another response hopefully this helps make a step in the right direction and we can bring true balance to dbd haha hope to hear again soon!
@@Jamieb2123 No need to apologise for a late reply, I've sometimes taken weeks to respond to comments if I've been busy. It's interesting to hear about the console inputs. I'm not sure where I've heard about limited inputs from, has this ever been an issue? Further, another person had suggested that Guard Summons could be entirely tied to the Active Ability button with a tap for swapping and holding for summoning. This would free up the power button to be dedicated to the Parry aspect of the power. I thought this was a great solution, what do you think? As for The Carnifex, I think applying a status effect could be useful for mid-chase application. Perhaps a small Hindered applied to the Survivor would help with improving this Guards aspect? I think that whilst, yes, there is a slight concern that he could become useless after an extended time in a match, I don't see this as very likely. This would require a Knight to have broken every pallet, breakable wall and damaged every available generator eight times. Still I think that improving The Carnifex and his ability in some way could certainly be useful and make him more impactful in a chase. With The Jailors design, I think that applying Hindered in some way could be an option for improving his chase potential. Another option could be to have less limits on the current Patrols system. I also like the idea of commanding him to performing some sort of hook style action for you, this would be in line with a 'Jailor'. I think that with the caging option some other effects/bonuses as a result of the entrapment would be necessary so that it simply isn't a clone of the Cages Of Atonement. What do you think about this? Would extra effects be needed and if so what do you think they could be?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond So console inputs on survivor side are very limited killer side not as much as most of the time it’s the attack, move, action and power buttons so there is 100% availability for that. I agree with the unlikely chance that all available gens and pallets to be kicked very limited scenarios that could happen but maybe instead of the guard hindering the survivor the carniex gives buffs to the knight? For aslong as he’s in range giving the option for potential use other than big guy break stuff? Also this is cancelled once a survivor in range losses a health state from the knight? Buffs could include; 20% missed attack cooldown, 20% increased parry window etc? Last but not least I really like the idea of the jailer being the lock and key of the knight but unlike pyramid heads cages i believe this should have counter play due to the fact that unlike pyramid head there is no status effect tied to the jailer taking someone away? Not sure on what that could be though or maybe you have an idea to get a status effect that would make the auto hook fair?
Imagine this: You don’t leave your normal view when sending out a guard, it just moves forward as you hold the button and you look left or right to steer it. So you can still walk around while planning a path. So simple, such a difference. It’s the same as the twin’s problem, it’s awkward as hell to use a power that separates you from the actual killer
At first, I felt reluctant as a Knight main, the 2v1 chase scenario being what I love the most in his kit, but after listening to the whole concept, it actually sounds somehow better to play against and as the knight, love the idea of the parry, it could add something to master in his power.
2:09 SAME! I wanted so bad for Patrol night to be good (i mean, he'd need like at least 2 guards at a time to be useful for this), but it's just not rlly viable.
12:18 would it not make more sense for The Knight to just be able to parry the pallet back upright and come crashing down with a basic attack on the survivor that can only injure but never down? The whole point of a parry is to beat your opponent’s attack away just enough to open them up for an attack of your own. To ensure that this won’t become spammable, add a cooldown to the Parry (around 20 seconds or so). Other than that this concept is fantastic and definitely better than how The Knight currently plays. Well done man.
I play Knight sometimes and one of the things I have come to realise is that Carnifex is literally just the best at everything. Jailer is practically useless and feels like a HINDRANCE because his design is fundamentally flawed. He is supposed to be a patroller that stays out for a long time and alerts you to where survivors are, but what are you supposed to do when Jailer tells you a survivor is there? Like great, now I can stare at the survivor while they make distance on my useless Jailer. He is so bad at chasing he wouldn't be able to catch someone blindfolded. So now what? You know WHERE the survivor is but you can't do anything about it because you can't bring out another guy until the Jailer goes away! Jailer is so bad I've had good survivors intentionally get spotted by him right as he is about to expire to deny me my power. Having a long patrol time is a hindrance, not a strength. The correct way to use Jailer is to put him down then immediately hit him. The Assassin is not terrible, but he genuinely is not better at chasing than Carnifex. One flaw of the Knight's power is that the minions will always go to where they first spotted a survivor, so even though the Assassin is a little bit fast, he doesn't have enough chase time to actually catch up. I try using the Assassin and he is pretty good in chase when I am pressuring the survivor, but I have always found that the Carnifex is better at hitting survivors than the Assassin. Carnifex also insta-breaks pallets (if you don't get the stun bug 🙃) and is so good to the point where the Carnifex axe head add-on that makes him appear twice might be one of Knight's best add-ons if he didn't have Map of the Realm and Call to Arms glued into his add-on slots most of the time. Sometimes I sub out Call to Arms for this add-on and it performs well.
I still prefer the Jailor in chase because he has a bigger detection range and is almost the only guard to consistantly detect survivors. The Assassin 4.4m/s are great but in case of double chase it doesn't do much, and outside of double chase if you don't run horsemeat the chase duration isn't long enough...
Great video. I'm really looking forward to the twins or legions rework. Overall, your ideas are really great and I think that BHVR should actually listen to the community and the content creators
Holy cow, I’d want this rework to be implemented for the Parry alone honestly! It really has bugged me that the Knight, who is said to be trained in what I can only assume to be Italian Longswordsmanship, uses his sword more like a hammer. His hands are too close together on the hilt, and he just slams it downward during an attack. It would have been cool if they made his attack animation more similar to the Oni’s, since that actually looks pretty good. But I digress. This entire rework honestly does sound quite fun, and I absolutely would enjoy playing this Knight a whole lot more.
The Knight wields a greatsword (judging by the looks of it, seems to be a Montante). Greatswords were made to be a counter to pole arms such as pikes, spears, and or poleaxes. I agree that BHVR should animate his hands to be less choked up on the upper part of the hilt of his greatsword. However, using the pommel to break pallets and walls is fairly reasonable. If you look into how greatswords are used in combat, one of the things you’ll notice is using the pommel as a way of striking in close quarters situations like grappling or wrestling. Everything on these big weapons like spears, poleaxes, greatswords etc can be used in combat and the pommel of a greatsword is no exception. Furthermore, in longsword combat there are techniques known as the murder stroke where they quite literally grab the blade with both hands and hit the opponent with either the pommel or crossguard, in other words like a hammer.
@@shadowdeath3050 Oh yeah, I am well aware of those techniques as a HEMA nerd myself. I was more just lamenting how in the Pallet Break and Basic Attack animations, he just slams the blade directly downwards and bends weirdly in doing so. And with the Wall Break animation, it looks more like The Knight is using the blade to chop down the wall. I really wish for the breaking animations Knight used some kind of Half-swording to use the pommel in order to damage the Generators, Walls, and Pallets. But hey, at least the carry animation has a thrust using the pommel. I am glad to see that you seem to be a bit of a HEMA nerd as well, though!
I'm all for a Knight rework (Even though I kind of love his current power despite its weakness). Although I worry BHVR would never make a rework for him as reworks don't make money for them so the most we'd get is some QoL improvements to his power I think. If that's the case I'd like them to at least add so you can use the secondary power button to cancel the current patrol route without having to go up to the guard and hit them. And maybe the ability to switch at will with the same button (When no guards are out). Although I doubt they would do that one.
I think taking a page from the new dnd killer might be better. The lich can choose which power to use, but they have separate cooldowns. This should be how the knights summons could work.
Ok question though why doesnt carnifex have any chasing for his class though. Like if he breaks something within 10 to 12 meters he can begin a chase if a survivor is within the radius. Just a thought .
as someone who mains singularity, unknown, and ofc knight, i was worried at first this rework would take away the things I like ab knight but omg this would be so amazing! hoping this gets made official somehow
I love how this rework makes all the guards really unique, but I do have two complaints. It seems to me that the jailor is the most useless since he can be used only a maximum of 7 times. After that, 1/4 of your power is just gone, and there is no guarantee that you will get value out of him during the window he is active. Second of all, it doesn't make sense to me that all of the guards go on a cooldown when you use one. I think it would lead to a lot of scenarios where you want to multitask to punish a mistake from the other team, but you can't because of the cooldown. This really is a really cool rework however, and I like how it still keeps many aspects of the old design!
Thank you for your support and taking the time to leave some feedback. The intention with limiting The Jailor summons was to prevent The Knight from spamming Patrols on a generator continuously. Given that his search radius expansion rate would be 8m/s, Patrolling a generator with a survivor currently working on it would lead to a guaranteed chase. In this way a Knight would want to make decisive use of information perks in order to guarantee a chase. With that said it could certainly be too limiting. Someone else had suggested that simply requiring the Patrol of a number of other generators before making the original generator 'Patrollable' would be a good middle-ground. What do you think of this? Do you think that would that be enough to improve The Jailor's potential or that other alterations would need to be made. For the cooldowns, this was intended to incentivise The Knight to prioritise certain tasks. With the ease of achieving injuries through The Assassin players may see healing as useless, similar to how players avoid healing against The Legion. But since it would force a cooldown on other guards, the utility of healing would be to incentivise summoning The Assassin and limit the use of other guards for some time. Do you think that reducing the duration of the cooldowns would be enough or that a new cooldown system would be needed?
I’d love to see a rework where the survivors could fight the guards by finding swords around the map. And when a guard catches up, the survivor has to hit 2 difficult skill checks to beat the guard in combat. I’d also like the guards AI to be revamped. Moonwalking, mind gaming AI would be hilarious.
Thank you for taking the time to share your ideas. I think that having Survivors directly fight the Guards would be really awesome. I can just imagine a Meg trying to take on The Carnifex and getting absolutely clapped. Also as for improved AI, this would be really nice and allow for a more complex power. I seem to recall at some point BHVR saying that we were going to get functioning killer AI in custom games but I haven't heard anything recently. Do you know if this was the case or not?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond Not really. I heard they would give touch ups to the survivor bots because they were dodging ranged attacks. Huntress hatchet, Pyramid head’s punishment, Nemesis tentacle.
The Parry idea would be interesting to see! Like if you stun him, or what not for like 60 secs if you pallet stun him, he can chop the pallet and try and hit you would be interesting (ofc if it shows up on the screen “he can parry you btw)!
So what happens when a survivor is just even mildly competent? Who cares about the Carnifex? If the Assassin is gonna chase, he better catch them with a measly goddamn 110. Also, Guards can't down? What happens when I'm already injured? I'll just tank it and put your ass on cooldown What do you mean Jailor patrol "once per trial" this is insanity That parry is game design fan fiction, I'll just predrop and flashlight you. This is useless, Instant D tier
I really can't agree with this rework, i love knight, he's one of my favourite characters and quickly becoming my main, but this rework makes his guards feel so underwhelming, even more than they already are. I appreciate the effort but a total rework knight is overkill, all he really needs is some quality of life changes.
The parry mechanic sounds nice but with none of the guards able to actually down you kinda run into the old legion problem of being a nuisance rather than a threat
Thank you for taking the time to leave some feedback. This was something I had considered when limiting The Assassins capabilities. I didn't want to create a rework concept that boiled down to 'Legion 2.0'. With this in mind, I had added the Parry ability to improve The Knight's own capabilities. By itself I don't think it would be too impactful but in tandem with The Carnifex and some add-ons offering improved chase potential I had thought it would be enough to make The Knight more threatening. Do you think this would be enough to elevate The Knight's chase potential or that he would still feel limited? If so are there any adjustments you would suggest in order to try and tackle this?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond I think the carnifex being able to apply on break effects is a fair trade for losing the patrol mechanic, I think the jailer being a harasser and guarding is what he needs to be, and as for the assassin just letting him down people is really all he needs maybe make it so he can't track people in deep wounds so he can't chase people tunneled off hook or the same person he just hit since he applies deep wound on hit.
I have some questions and concerns. The standard, did you get rid of the haste and endurance it gives? I think that's a really silly mechanic and should just end the chase. Another thing to address the knight is a buggy mess but this one is intentional I think. Pre Dropping a pallet makes the guards go around currently, and then to the pallet; even if they run by the hunted survivor. This has to go, it's overpowered and is a free getaway from the assassin. Also, currently in the game all guards slow down when they go through a dropped pallet or window so there's no need to implement it. Also, if an injured survivor runs into the assassin that's chasing them, will they get a sprint burst from being hit? I hope not because that's bad design, my reasoning is it just gets rid of the threat in chase and there would be no counterplay for the killer, and the killers power should be strong. If you wanna keep it I think that's fine, but I think you should allow the knight to always see the aura of the assassin during a hunt. Currently if the knight is in, I think 12 meters of the guard that is in chase the knight can't see the guards aura. I think this will allow for good play on both sides but what do you think?Another question, does the jailer drop a standard? Also for the jailer, if the hunted survivor runs intentionally towards the knight and enters 16 meters, I feel their needs to be a punishment for that. Hypothetically if the knight is moving away from the survivor but they are running towards the knight, let's say the jailers movement speed increases by .2 for every 4 seconds spent running at the knight; what do you think?Also how would elevation work for it, let's say two different floor? Would the jailer drop chase if the knight entered the radius above or below them? Either way thank you for the video!
Thank you for taking the time to leave a comment. For the first question, honestly I had forgotten that grabbing the Standard grants these effects. I don't remember the last time I saw someone grab the Standard, it's such a rare occurrence. Under this rework, no, grabbing the Standard wouldn't grant any bonuses, only ending the chase. The focus on The Assassin dropping a Standard would be to give a Survivor the option to avoid The Assassin outside of 'double-chases'. For the pallet drops, I thought that interaction was a bug. The problem I found when play testing ahead of this video was that because The Knight currently has so many bugs, I don't know which weird interactions are intended mechanics and which aren't. Under the rework I imagine that a guard would always phase through a pallet, regardless of circumstance. As for the slowdown, I should have specified that it would be far greater than the currently applied slowdown. This way a survivor would be able to consistently avoid guards in a solo chase if they make good use of the environment. If The Assassin made contact with an already injured survivor; yes they would gain a small sprint burst. This is the same as what currently happens with the Legion's feral frenzy. The onus would be on a Knight to not summon an Assassin to chase an already injured survivor as this would have very limited utility anyway. Further, as for seeing the Guards aura during a chase this would be very useful to have and is how I had envisioned it working. I thought that this was supposed to be how the guards worked currently and that the lack of seeing an aura was a bug, I'm never sure with The Knight's design these days. With the Jailor, no, he wouldn't drop a Standard. The idea of The Jailor is to provide slowdown and offering a Standard could seriously hamper this ability. As mentioned above, phasing through a vault or thrown pallet would apply a much greater speed reduction than it currently does. This way a survivor that is being chased by The Jailor would need to make use of the environment and not just grab a Standard at the nearest available moment. For Survivors who run towards a Jailor, I didn't think that this would be too much of an issue. In most instances I had imagined that a Jailor would be summoned to a generator in the distance meaning that running towards the killer wouldn't be an option. With that said, on smaller maps it may be a problem. I think that impacting a Jailor's movement speed based on movement could be risky. What if a survivor was running towards the killer unintentionally? I think a middle-ground could involve applying the Survivor with Hindered if they enter the 16 metre radius. This way a Survivor would be in close proximity to The Knight, leaving them at risk and with a reduced movement speed. This would allow The Knight to potentially gain a free hit in these instances. Do you think this would be a good middle ground or that it wouldn't be punishing enough? Finally for the elevation affecting this, no. I don't think that entering a 16m radius but at a different elevation should cancel the chase. This would make the chase very easy to counter in certain maps (e.g Gideon Meat Plant) and Main Buildings. Whilst this could lead to rare instances of double-chases with The Knight, I think that it would be easy enough for a Survivor to avoid in most instances. What do you think should occur in these instances?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond Friend, thank you for making such an amazing video alongside taking the time to answer all my questions. Yes, I think your suggestions for the jailer is a very good idea as long as the hindered isn't like 3%, because knight currently has a purple add-on (blacksmith hammer) that applied a 3% hindered after a hunt ends and it's really bad. Maybe 5% hindered? I agree with what you said, a 16 meter radius around the knight or maybe further since I can't remember when the jailers hunt is supposed to end when they get close to the knight, forgive me I can't exactly remember. What do you think? is 5% too much or too little?
id disagree that patrol CANT work, i 100% think its salvageable good ideas ive seen thrown around are: -allow multiple guards at once but add a minimum patrol length and remove the haste buff on knight then other changes to facilitate this (i like this cus it feeds well into the power fantasy) -the minimum length idea in general -buffing guards to 115% speed but giving survivors 12% haste while chased by a guard -in general, giving survivors buffs while effected by a guard
I think he's even worse now, u stated issues at start n those issues seem to still n there after ur rework cept worse maybe I misunderstood it idk but he seems even worse to be chased by, still have the ur gonna hit no matter what stuff
Thank you for taking the time to leave your feedback. The focus with this rework was to maintain The Knight's identity but altering the way Guards work in order to reduce frustration felt by both sides. The double chases would only be achievable with use of The Assassin who would only ever be able to injure. In this way The Knight would be able to easily gain injuries with The Assassin (similar to The Legion's Feral Frenzy) but without the ability to down a survivor in this way. This would mean that a Knight and survivor would need to engage in regular chase gameplay without the guaranteed hits if The Knight wanted to down a survivor. Do you think this would be enough to reduce the frustration felt by players or that the 'double chase' concept should be entirely removed?
Thank you for taking the time to leave your feedback. Whilst pre-dropping of pallets would be a way to avoid the Parry I don't think it would always be the correct play. With use of The Carnifex, The Knight could quickly remove pre-dropped pallets and gain distance on a Survivor. Further, the Parry would lock The Knight into a breaking animation and allow a survivor to make distance. This way a survivor isn't entirely punished for throwing a pallet that is parried, it would still allow for them to make distance. Do you think that pre-dropping would still be the most viable option for playing around his power? If so do you think that alterations could be made in order to reduce the reliance on pre-dropping? As for The Assassin, I'm assuming the term 'kidnapping' is referring to his reduced capabilities in chase. The idea with this was to maintain the 'double chases' that are currently unique to The Knight but without making them too oppressive. Currently a 'double chase' acts as a guaranteed health state. By reducing this to injuries the focus was on The Knight having to earn downs with a regular chase using his Parry, Carnifex, add-ons and chase perks. In this way the 'double chases' aren't removed but also aren't too oppressive for survivors to play against. Do you think that this would be too limiting to his gameplay? Would you make alterations to The Assassin or do you think that an entirely new system would be needed in order to have him be more threatening?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond I think it would be better to give knight a charge attack, where he raises the sword before slamming it down. If the survivor chooses to drop a pallet, slam will break a pallet AND deal damage to the survivor (essentially normal M1 attack). If the survivor chooses to vault a window/pallet, same idea. If the survivor chooses to run forward, the knight will slam into the ground and suffer effects of missed attack. Because this ability takes time to put up, and the animation would be pretty obvious, even if 1 second long, it won’t be oppressive. But it would be very Berserk-like with Knight being able to break pallets AND people by default. Comparatively to Nemesis, it will allow Knight to also hit survivors amidst animation, but only when very up-close.
Thank you for taking the time to leave a comment. This was something I had considered but wasn't too sure on and so didn't include it in the video. On the one hand it would be a cool interaction and encourage the use of a Knight perk on The Knight. However, given the ease with which The Assassin could achieve injuries applying Exposed may have limited utility. Further, I think that it could make balancing this perk difficult. If it became useful on The Knight, buffing it may be dangerous. If this were the case and it wasn't buffed as a result, it would continue to be ignored by the majority of killers. I'm honestly not too sure what I would do with this interaction. What are your thoughts on this?
@@DBDBalanceBeyondI agree with all your thoughts about the dynamic, but what I think it’s kind of meant to be niche and used with spirit fury and the whole shebang, but even if it wasn’t useable with parry if the knight gets stunned he can send out the fast breaking guard (I forgot the name) and just go around. So in conclusion I think no, but only because there’s another way with the guards.
Shocked? Literally the day of release ppl didn't like him he's the easiest killer to play other than wraith he doesn't take skill it's the AI doing the work for u
@@kingol4801 hillbilly I don't mind huntress but she's played a lot same with Wesker, I like artist I like going against demo but my fav to go against is doctor
Hello! Main knight here. I sadly disagree with 90% of your proposals. Don't be angry but I think you know very little of how this killer works... The knight has many issues and bugs but your proposal are basically unviable... they will make the knight the worst killer by large margin. They appear a rework and balancing but basically it seem TO ME you are removing everything from the knight that makes you frustrated as survivor.... I hope you understand that we can do this game with every killer and every killer would be completely destroyed by it. On top of that, BHVR showed they are not able to rework and they will probably just change some numbers if they decide to work on him. For example... you said the knight can summon a guard with a 2 seconds focusing watching the environment while he walks slower than survs. Just remember this ok? - Carnifex: breaks walls, pallets and generators. 1) Generators: While it is nice to apply pop and NTH with a carnifex, pop (the main kick gen perk) is going to be hard nerfed and probably noone will use it anymore, this playstyle will be less viable. On the other side, if I do not have a kick perk and I need to focus for 2 seconds on a gen to damage... well... it is better to simply kick it, this way the guard is not in a cooldown... this ability is often useless... 2) Walls: Breaking walls is the same, why I want a 16 seconds cooldown? Just kick the wall, I understand I can watch the wall while I walk and send the guard but the half of a second I save moving away does not worth the huge cooldown i am going to have on carni and the other guards aswell. Can be handy only in case I am going straight to a wall and I need to pass through. 3) Pallets: if a surv drops a god pallet 2 seconds of charging carnifex are more than 1.8 seconds kicking. I want to kick a god pallet. If the pallet is not god, 2 seconds of charging while moving slower than the surv and he will run to another loop. This is the best scenario and, as we can see, the situation is identical as before. Now carnifex is 90% useless and 10% weaker but not better gameplay wise, still we have as main counter to change the loop. - Assassin: spawn on me, chase for a deep wound hit, it can't down. The point here is that assassin can hit a proficient survivor only if it spawn on top. If I charge 2 seconds the survivor will immediately run away, as soon as assassin appears he is 8 meters away, as soon as he has 16 mt of detection the survivor is outside the radius. The assassin will never detect. And even if he detects he cannot catch because the distance is too much. Sadly the assassin, almost useless guard, is the best one because in this rework he serves the minor purpose to push the survivor away from a loop being the only one able to sandwitch. But this is the exactly gameplay you wanted to avoid! - Jailer: defend a gen for 2 seconds. If you are spawning the guard on a gen you are pretty close to the gen, probably your TR can be detected even if you are running monitor. The survivors will move away from that gen. The jailer will not spot anyone and even if he spots as soon as you get close he disappear. The jailer Is the worst chaser, I see you increased his speed from 102% to 105% but still this is not something scary, the survivor can move away and avoid it, or greed, trigger the chase and outrun it. This jailer is not able to defend efficiently, a drone or a phantasm trap is something more scary at this point. After 2 seconds the gen is free to go. So you protected a gen for... 2 seconds.... the time you wasted walking towards the gen worth more... - Parry: So... if they stun me during an attack... instead of 2 seconds stun that can be reduced with enduring I have a forced breaking animation of 2.2 seconds that cannot be reduced in any way? This is a nerf man. If the pallet do not stun the survivor will play the pallet, if the pallet stuns the survivor knows I am stuck for even more time, in 2.2 seconds he can make 9 meters of distance and 10 meters of distance need 15 seconds to be recovered. And I am not free to keep the pallet in case I need it (maybe it is weak or I have some perks). Just let compare the parry with the perk "spirit fury". Spirit fury needs to be charged but: - Works with every pallet stun, with or without the attack; - 2 seconds of stun, not 2.2; - The first one is a surprise, the parry is not; - Can combo with enduring. And still noone runs spirit fury alone, everyone knows a spirit fury without an enduring gives you no real advantage often. Parry is not only worse than a perk but cannot even combo with enduring and with.... HUBRIS! Knight's own perk! Man... as I said... I understand your good will.... Knight's situation is fairly complicate but... no... this is not the way to balance and rework a killer, just removing and gutting things you do not like blindly.... Knight also it is not that strong, you cannot simply take away things like you do on blight.... With knight I think you should ask to some mains....
How does it feel to main one of the easiest killers who lets AI do all the work also the last sentence "asking knight mains" just bc someone doesn't main knight doesn't mean they don't get an opinion u don't own the character nerd
@@BeefyZawg So this community works like this? If someone has a different opinion and politely points out is insulted? Good to know. THIS is exactly what knight mains had to deal with for more than 1 years. People thinking their killer is super easy and knight's mains can be treated poorly.
I was a Knight main back then, but I stopped playing him because of the riddiculous amount of bugs and your guard IA being absolutely dumb af. I really like the idea of the rework, however, I fear that Knight would only be able to use Parry out of his power. I'll give my opinion on why I think summoning each guard would be a waste of time. Before we start I want to precise that I don't want to roast you or anything, I just think that you had a really cool idea but this idea came with a lot of problematic playstyle that you tried to get rid off (wich is fair) but which also nerf enough the basic power to make it mostly useless. Don't take anything personally ! First of all, without any doubt the strongest guard : Carnifex. Carnifex has the ability to shred through pallets really quickly, faster than demo shred, but with the downside of the bug summoning that will prevent you to summon him if you're to close of a pallet or in a narrow space, meaning that you have to stop few steps sooner, allowing survivors to continue looping if they pay enough attention. Most of Survivors don't notice that and it's why this is still the strongest guard, but if they would play some Knight games they would figure that really quickly. (I'm just giving some context stay with me). However right now you need first to be within 12 metres of the pallet and for the pallet to be dropped and wait 2 seconds at reduced speed to break the pallet. Any Survivor paying attention will see that you're looking strangely the pallet while you're Carnifex is active and will just leave the loop, and with your reduced movement speed you won't even benefit from them leaving the loop. Secondly, I think this is Nice to have the Carnifex benefit for pallet/breakable wall/generator breaking/damaging perks, now that you can only damage a generator 8 times damaging a generator with a guard is less than useless, but counterproductive, but for the same reasons, I can't see any utility for using the Carnifex instead of damaging the generator manually. Sure you would lose less distance on the survivor, but you would be unable to use your power for 8 seconds after... Now for the most uselles guard : the Assassin. I know that for someone who starts as a Knight, Assassin could be consider the best guard, I thought that too, but indeed, his only ability is to chase survivors, but he is kinda worse than the 2 others for that (Carnifex chase longer and Jailor is more certain to chase). Sometimes you can drop the Assassin on top of a Survivor, and he would still not chase them for radius reason, and this is even worse without Map of the Realm. Assassin is really pretty bad, and I think this would be even worse with this rework. First of all, and this is something that is alto true for the Carnifex, the need to see the pallet/breakable wall/generator/survivor may lead to bugs and could also neglict even more his power. For the Carnifex that mean that you can't for example break a jungle gym pallet from the other side of the loop, you need to go see the pallet, start your power, wait 2 seconds, and then it is broken. This is more than enough to let the Survivor know what you're doing and leave the loop without any danger. This may be still a niche issue on Carnifex, I think this is way more important on Assassin. Think about big structure such as Shack for example. If the Survivor loops well, you have really little windows to get them, and even if you do you then need to wait 2 seconds at reduced speed to summon the assassin, and only then you're allowed to use his pathetic power. I don't know for how long the chase will stay, but if it's the curent duration, let me warn you that you almost never get a hit with him, even sometimes when you're double chasing because he can get passed easily, but here double chasing would be even harder because you lose a lot of distance on the Survivor (1.48 m exactly, which take 2.5 seconds to gain back on a straight line, but even more on loops). And as you get a massive cooldown when the Assassin finally get his victime, the only benefit of using him instead of M1 is the Deep Wound Status Effect, some boring slowdown... Ok now for the Jailor. Jailor is a strange case. His extended radius makes him really useful in chase but he is mostly used for 3gen. I can see that you tried to keep this patrols theme, but limiting his effect to once per gen is really rough. The reason why Jailor is not that good for camping gen is that Survivors can just... Start a chase with him... Yeah I know this looks dumb, but as he has an extended detection radius, he can spot you from very far, so also very far from the Knight, and with his slow speed and his normal chase duration, he can't do anything without the Knight, but if a gen is at 90%, there is no way the Knight goes through all the map to take a double chase almost finished by the time he gets there, letting the gen be done. Now this is even worse because if a Survivor do that, you just lose your power on this gen. Maybe at the start of the game when there are 7 generators, this can still seem useful, but in late game, with only 4 generators, you have 4 instances of your power that can be denied really quickly as I explained sooner. If this idea seems for me the best of the 3, (being at least a bit useful), it's also the only one that you can run out. This also lead to another issue. What happened at Shack, when you run out of Jailor, and have already summon the Assassin previously and there are no pallet to break ? You just have to wait the extended delay to use Assassin again. I really like the delay, allowing you to cycle through guards but still rewarding using different guards, but as their effect is so limited now, you can't ensure that you can use every one when you want, so this may lead to double cooldown really often. I think that no killer wait for such a long time to get back their power, even more for such a weak power. The M1 situation can be even worse in another situation : The survivor is injured. Just think at the infamous Shack-jungle gym of tfe Chapel map : the Survivor has strong enough structures to never drop the pallet, you can't use your Jailor because he ran out, and using your Assassin won't do anything as the Survivor is already injured... The only 3 killers that can be as powerless are Trapper, Myers and Freddy (without trap, T1/T2, awoken Survivor) and I can guarantee you that it's not the most pleasant experience. However, I really like your parry idea, making the Knight having some power by himself is definitely something needed, at least for lore coherence, and even more with this rework making him really M1 dependant. The 2.2 seconds seem fair to me, maybe we would have to see ingame if it's not too busted. I just have 2 "bad" thoughts about this : Wouldn't it make Carnifex even more useless now that you can by yourself destroy pallet quicker ? And wouldn't it make Hubris useless as it's not really a stun, and so making the Knight Adept a nightmare to achieve, as he's definitely a lot weaker and would only have 1.5 perk with him ? (Because one is a hex) I may not have make this really clear, but I don't think this would completely destroy Knight. It would still be somewhere between the bottom of D tier and the bottom of E tier, maybe as strong as Myers, still better than Freddy but not as powerful as The Trapper ? I wasn't saying it would be the weakest killer of all time, but most of his power would be really really niche if not useless, and if it would certainly make him more nice for the Survivor Side, but really boring on the Killer Side. Knight is a killer about guard management and prediction. You have to always consider the current guard for both side to play optimaly, using your Jailor at the wrong place can deny your power for an absurdly long time and predroppinq pallets won't help you if the Knight has his Carnifex. I really like to compare the Knight with the Nurse for the Spirit Knight. Imagine Nurse but blind : You can be the best Nurse in the game, if you can't see the Survivors you can't down them. The counterplay of Nurse is to try to hide yourself as much as possible and always be imprevisible. This is the same for Knight. If you're running straight to a Jungle gym he will certainly cut you off with a guard. However if you seem like you're running straight to a jungle gym but as soon as he goes on Spirit form you go elsewhere, you'll deny his power for a bit and you'll aswell make a lot of distance on him. Moreover you have a warning that he goes onto Spirit form as his TR will suddenly disappear. I don't think that Spirit Knight is a problematic playstyle. It just rewards Knight for being good at prediction and punishing Survivors healing under the hook. Survivors also seem to forget that you can deny his power by hiding or by taking the flag, but even when you run to another tile, the Knight loses its power for the patrolling duration, and that can be a lot with the Jailor. The tile where you're going to get hit are the corner tiles, but what Survivors complaining about the Knight seem to forget is that every Killer can get you at these tiles. I don't find the gameplay of Singularity, Clown or Huntress more engaging, and I think it's normal that you get hit when you're cornered. Survivors are often afraid of the green radius, but if there is a wall between you and the guard you can come easily back to the center of the map. I'm not saying Knight gameplay is really engaging, but at least his power has counterplay. Legion seems to me really worse as you can't really avoid their power but in addition their power won't lead you to a fun chase but to mend. I think that the solution is not to change completely his power, but to make his counterplay better. Feel free to roast me in comments for defending Knight !
Now for Add-ons. I think you did a pretty good job for your power. Once again, I think the problem for why Add-ons won't be useful is because the power (imo) is kinda meh. But at least Add-ons are coherent with his power. Currently, Knight has 5 worth it add-ons, from which only 3 are used (and I say 3 to not say 2). I think he has some of the lamest Add-ons after PH. I'll go after each one real quick : •Tattered Tabard : This is unfortunate as we start with the one I disagree the most with :') 5% is really much. REALLY REALLY much, particularly for a brown with 0 downside. This could ensure hits almost every time. I won't say it' s busted because you still have the 2.7 cooldown + not working against injured Survivors, but it definitely won't make chases more engaging... •Pllaged Mead : This one is quite nice. I don't see a lot of situation where you need to be 16m away from the pallet to break it but it's achieving its purpose for a Brown. •Map of the Realm : Same, quite nice, good info for a Brown. •Gritty Lump however is a bit strong for a Brown. Maybe it should be at least Green, even Purple, and make it something like 5 tokens with 6% per tokens? 40% is a lot considering it could stacks with Coup de Grâce... •Treated Blade : I'm not a huge fan of Slowdown Add-ons, but yeah I guess it makes sense. •Dried Horsemeat : Once again I have to test ingame to see if it's too strong or not but it seems fine to me. •Cold Steel Manacles : I mean, this kinda fix the Jailor issue, but it would 1) makee the Knight as Add-on dependant as currently with Map of the Realm 2) Put a bit of ghaze on a haemorrage : 1 token is not really enough... •Call to Arms : It's a nice one, but same as Hubris, wouldn't it be useless because of parry ? And I don't know if it's really good as it's power is already pretty weak... But it would certainly help situation when you have to wait 16s because you only have one guard that you can use... •Battleaxe Head : It is really nice info, I approve it to give some use to the Carnifex. •Town Watch's Torch : Eeeehhh... I don't actually know... I would think this is quite good ? •Ironworker's Tongs : Good good good, a bit too Good though as you also get info on where they are but they don't, maybe reduce this to 20s? And this also suffer from the Jailor's issue but it would still worth it I think. •Grim Iron Mask : Yeah ok, I can see that. We definitely need more useful blindess perks/add-ons (not like that laughable Clown Add-on...) •Chain Mail Fragment : Maybe too much ? Parry can already be quite strong, 5% for 5 seconds is a lot, this should be more like 2.5%... •Broken Hilt : Nice, definitely better than the previous one... But it seems to me that for Green it's 80s, isn't it? •Lightweight Greaves : Oof... As you can't spawn that many Jailors, this may not be busted but 7% is a lot I think... •Healing Poultice : Oof again, 45 seconds are harsh, especially for beginners, maybe give it a condition, as you could make Survivors always Broken by spamming Assassins, this would feel really unfair, especially for beginners... •Flint and Steel : semi-oof : This is a bit busted info for generators, and useless for pallets... I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do... Blacksmith's Hammer : Yeah why not, but maybe reduce it to 5 seconds ? •Knight's Contract : Definitely better than the Exposed one. Really fun. I approve it a lot. I just wanted to if it triggers when you already are in the TR, as it would make it almost useless... •Iridescent Company Banner : Yeah really nice, I approve it. Definitely less fun than the other iri or the previous version, but still Nice. The initial cooldown really compensate the late effect, without being to oppressive at the start. Really good for an iri. Well, most of the Add-ons are great, and could definitely make Knight stronger despite his weak basekit. I'm not sure if it's a great thing as Killer should not be as Add-on dependant as Myers, but yeah... Definitely better than BHVR's ones...
Ok I thought about another rework : What if : 1st : Map of the Realm and Call to Arms are made basekit. We need way less Add-on dependency. 2nd : We fix all bugs that destroyed the experience of Knight players 3rd : The flag doesn't spawn at the location of the guard, but rather in a random spot not too far from the Survivor. The Survivor can see its aura in Yellow and becomes whiter until it's ready to be picked up. This would make the Survivor being able to counter Knight's power way more reliably as only him can see the flag aura (the Knight could still see it as an object, but not its aura). 4th : The idea of choosing your guard is great QoL, with a longer CD for preventing players to spam only one guard. 5th : The Area of detection is marked in green, for beginners to understand where they can hide and where not. 6th : If a guard is chasing a Survivor and you get stunned by another Survivor, you can parry the Pallet as you've described it. I feel like parry is a bit too strong in your version, so I think adding this condition could ensure the Knight isn't powerless in a chase with another Survivor, but not make it OP for a single Survivor. 7th : The Knight can recall a guard that has been patrolling for 6 seconds, for not this f Jailor denying your power for these 24 seconds (sorry it's really making me mad...)
Thank you very much for taking the time to leave feedback. I'll respond in the order your points were made in hopes of keeping things clear. Starting with The Carnifex, if a survivor sees that you're summoning The Carnifex to break a pallet then yes they would absolutely need to leave the loop. The difference between this and a regular pallet break is The Knight's mobility. Being able to move, even slowly, whilst a pallet is being broken would reduce the distance a survivor makes whilst leaving the loop. Further, I'm not sure how using a Carnifex to damage generators would be counterproductive. Whilst there is certainly a limit to 'damage events', using The Carnifex to apply regression whilst losing less distance to a survivor would have it's benefits. Further there would be the option of some chase potential if this aspect is used in conjunction with perks such as Nowhere To Hide. The eight second cooldown may be too punishing, this value isn't a fixed one and could be easily reduced if necessary. Do you think that some number adjustments to the summoning and cooldowns would alleviate issues? For The Assassin the goal isn't to provide a power that will earn hits on it's own. Instead the focus is on The Knight having to engage in a 'double chase' to acquire easy injuries. The 16 second chase time of The Assassin would allow for a considerable window in which The Knight and The Assassin must split up and pinch the survivor. In cases where The Assassin can be passed easily, this is very often due to bugs in the design. The most infamous is that if a survivor touches a vault location, the guard will follow to touch that location before continuing their pursuit of the survivor. It goes without saying but a rework concept assumes that there aren't any bugs. With that said, BHVR have shown that they're unwilling or unable to fix the many bugs that plague this characters design. This can make it difficult to discuss these ideas when we simply run on the assumptions of 'It should work properly.'. The purpose of mimicking an 'M1' cooldown after The Assassin strikes a survivor is to prevent the 'double hit' gameplay we currently see. I think these scenarios are silly for a number of reasons and so consciously added a post-attack cooldown in order to prevent this. Do you think that the cooldown could be reduced in order to alleviate this issue or that a new system would be needed? With The Jailor, the limited uses is certainly potentially painful. I had created the limit in order to prevent the spamming of his ability on a single generator. With a search radius expansion of 8m/s 'Patrolling' an generator that a survivor is currently working on would guarantee the chase. As such a Knight would be incentivised to make use of tracking perks to know when a chase would be guaranteed. With that said, someone else had suggested that a number of other 'Patrols' should be required before the first generator becomes 'Patrollable' again. Do you think this would help with the restrictions of his power? With the cooldowns, do you think a reduction in their duration would help to improve the power overall? If so, what numbers would you set for the cooldowns? Whilst this killer would certainly have a limited chase potential in a number of scenarios, such as the one you describe, the ability to easily injure isn't terrible by itself. Similar to The Legion, running a chase perk can dramatically improve the power overall. Whilst I understand that this concept would keep The Knight with a limited chase potential, I don't think he would be powerless. Any number of chase perks could be used in tandem with some of his add-ons in order to improve his chase potential greatly. The idea of The Parry wouldn't necessarily make The Carnifex useless. With the Parry, you would be locked into a breaking animation. This way a Knight would only want to Parry pallets that he intends on breaking regardless of circumstance. The Carnifex would be better, however, at breaking pallets that have been pre-dropped or that are less safe. In this way both aspects of the power deal with pallets but both are better at dealing with different types of pallets. I'm not entirely sure that whether or not Hubris would activate on a Parry. This was something I had thought about but decided not to include. Do you think that it should or not?
@DBDBalanceBeyond I'll do the same as you, starting with your first point. The issue with the Carnifex is not that breaking pallet is bad, it's rather that if a third of your power is breaking pallets or gens, it has to be good. I think that at least the pallet should insta-break, and with little summoning time. I think that Knight's worst maps are indoors one, especially because of the bug preventing you from summoning a guard if an obstacle is nearby, which MIGHT be an issue when walls are everywhere (currently you spend more time trying to find a spot to summon the Carnifex than breaking the pallet manually...) I think that in indoor maps where line of sight is easily broken, the power can be really weak, especially as indoor maps tend to spawn god pallets. In this case, you need to be almost in front of the pallet, summon during 3 seconds and wait for the Carnifex to break the pallet to go through, you better break the pallet manually to still have your power right after... Same for Generators. I'll start by clarifying a point : I was saying that current Carnifex is counterproductive because breaking a gen doesn't apply Regression perks. This version is clearly not counterproductive, however I still think that this is not really helpful, and moreover nothing justify such a long cooldown. What I would suggest is that there would be no cooldown for breaking a gen (allowing you to prevent Survivors doing gen in your face) and only a 1 second delay during which the Carnifex fraise from the ground, alerting the Survivor or what's happening. Then we could have still 1 or 2 seconds of reduced movement speed. This would ensure a fast use of your Power making it feels less clunky, but would still allow Survivors to make some distance. For the Assassin, I have seen that you tried to prevent double tapping, but maybe it could be simply like a second where the Knight can't interact with Survivors ? Just like Huntress or Clown after throwing their respective items. This would prevent double tapping while still rewarding Knight to get some effect out of his M2. Then I was wondering about chase itself. Would there still be a flag? If yes, I think that my suggestion should apply there too, to allow more counterplays for the Survivor, the thing the most hated about Knight is that in some situation you can't do anything. I was suggesting that the Knight no longer see the Flag but the Survivor did, and it spawn in a random location instead of where the guard starts the chase. I think that this could be enough to fix the chase problem and allow for the Assassin to down Survivors. If you think not, maybe it should be something like Injuring -> Deep Wound -> Down, but by Nemesis experience, 3 health state is really weak... For the Jailor, if the problem is 3gen I think that allowing 2 uses per gen would still be far from enhancing this playstyle, don't you think? Finally, I think that cooldown should be inviduad to each guard, and maybe extend it to 20 seconds to make it more fair ?
What TF planet are you living on where people would rather go against artist than knight, I don't think anyone even hates going against artists she's balanced
@@BeefyZawg compared to artist, whenever knight places down a guard, you have enough time to avoid it and go to another loop without being chased by one of his guards, compared to artist, the moment she places down a dire crow you can't do much other than having to accept being cornered by a crow and a killer or you have to endure getting hit by an m1. you mostly have time to avoid knight due to the time it takes for the guards to be active compared to artist
@@ADepressedWooper not true knight automatically just sets a guard down and gets a hit artist you can loop around her crows knight is beyond annoying and takes no skill lets AI do all the work
@@BeefyZawg loop around her crows? the moment you are in the crows line of sight it's a hit when you are 8 meters close. sure knight might take less skill, i agree with you on that, but you have enough time to go to a different loop or vault while he is in his guard summoning stance while his guards take time to summon until they get their max detection range
honestly the most gigabrain move i have ever done on knight was in rpd in the evidence locker room. I had the assassin ready, survivor dropped the pallet, their only exit on that side I could get to faster. Made the assassin break the pallet, the survivor realized too late that they can't vault it when the guard is breaking it. They got cornered and downed. Needless to say though, i am not planning to touch knight again.
@@bluesnake8735 no if you are getting angry at a game, but this isn't even a game it's a concept. If you are actually offended you don't got a life buddy knight isn't balanced he's boring AF and broken
Ya know I watch a lot of Dbd UA-cam and I enjoy speculation for reworks and balance. I gotta say, this channel is consistently the goat for putting out logical and cool sounding reworks that still keep the identity of the killer in mind. Excellent work my friend
I always kinda wanted the patrol ring to be like.. misty and not a solid circle so you could be 100% certain on where it ends so you have to be extra careful.
I really like this rework actually! Also, Parry is very on-brand for Knight. It gives him something that makes him feel like more of an oppressive force, as he should, since he's this hulking, massive master-combatant, and currently he just feels underwhelming to face. It would definitely go a long way to helping the power fantasy aspect of him.
The problem is the basic ai. It can't cut off or adjust if it gets stuck as it just runs along the survivor's run path. If they can make the guards in any was smarter, he would be exponentially better
Honestly guards should just phase through objects once in chase. That would resolve any pathing problems.
I thought it would probably be too weak until you mentioned the parry, seems like a well thought out rework
I play and main knight religiously and I am obsessing over him so seeing people care about him and trying to come up with a rework is a great sight.
The spirit-knight compariosn was great in the video but I haven't seen anyone compare them further than in this video. Think about the knight's power as a worse spirit's power: you enter the spirit realm in both so you don't see survivors but with knight, you have worse control over movement and it doesn't take yourself where you end your path within the spirit realm but an AI guard. Also, both can be stunned in the spirit realm which I think shouldn't be the case for the knight also because it has been said before that it is a bug.
Saying that the knight "doesn't earn" the health state a survivor loses when he uses his power mid chase and puts the guard on top of the survivor is unjust. The spirit doesn't earn to make the survivor lose a health state when she successfully phases on top of them? If she does it, it is considered an expression of skill, but when the knight does it, it isn't? It is the exact same thing with extra steps. The only difference is that even if a hunt starts, it might not even be a guaranteed hit because survivors can easly outrun the guards if they don't just run in a straight line but this is only if and when a guard actually sees them at the first place. If you don't use map of the realm or have the jailer being put down as your guard, if a survivor runs in a straight line away from the guard they outrun the detection range and will never get detected. This is why people try to put their guards on top of survivors and use map of the realm almost always, because that's the only way to guarantee a hunt. Also, a better knight doesn't only guarantee the survivor to lose one health state while chasing them during a hunt, because they could double hit them (hitting the survivor as the knight right after the guard hits them), putting the survivor into the dying state immediately. People might find this power annoying because they think they shouldn't lose a health state just to be able to run away or last longer in chase but if you think about it, the counterplay to billy or the cannibal for example is to force an m1 so that you can make distance and waste the killer's time even more. In the latter situation, people even may be happy that they took a hit because "atleast I didn't go down" but in the knight's situation "it's annoying". The counterplay is the same, force a hit to run to other loop to waste more time just in a different way.
Onto the rework concept:
It is unclear if the knight would still enter the spirit realm while using the power and stay stationary or would just move slower while doing so like for example huntress holding up their hatchet.
The switching between guards is not a bad idea but even within this rework, the jailer would still be the worst guard by far and would become useless within 7 uses since he could no longer patrol freely, so you'd be better off to just switch between the assassin and the carnifex. But it is also a bit unclear for me if the downtime for guards would stack. Let's say I summom the carnifex and after 8 seconds I summom the assassin. Since I used the carnifex right before the assassin, he would still have 8 seconds of downtime. But by using another guard while the carnifex is still on cooldown, would it add the other 8 seconds to it's cooldown? If so, after using every guard (if you use them right after one then another), every guard would be at 16 seconds of cooldown. I don't know which one did you mean in the video but the latter one would be punishing the knight for using his power kind of unjustly in my opinion.
How the assassin works is also a bit unclear for me. If he still has the animation of floating towards the survivor before starting the hunt, would he drop the standard after the animation or after? Because in the first case he would also be useless. Also him dropping the standard immediately would make him very easly avoidable because the survivor could just make a circle and pick up the standard almost immediately or if there is another survivor around there they could also pick it up once the assassin isn't on top of it. But if you can successfully defend the standard of the assassin, it would make knight into a kind of better legion because with the assassin, he could guarantee to injure the survivor but then he would just become an m1 killer like legion. The only thing that would make knight better is that he also has the carnifex (and the jailer even if he is not that useful). But maybe I am wrong because legion has movement, can injure multiple survivors, putting big pressure on them and also punish them after mending depending on add ons.
Onto the jailer, if I understand right, he would basically be like a watchtower on a gen but for only a few seconds and has no range on his summoning? So if you put him on a generator that doesn't have any survivors near you wasted him completely. Him also being recalled instantly you go near the hunted survivor just makes him even worse. Imagine the survivors completed 4 generators already, all of them or 3 of them are still alive and you physically went to 2 of the remaining 3 to check them and they were at 0% progression. Logically, you'd think that the survivors are at the 3rd generator which luckily is still in green, so you spawn a jailer to it. You see that he starts chasing someone and there are multiple other killer instinct on top of that generator. By you doing this, you only pushed off one survivor while 2 or 3 more are still on the generator and if you go anywhere near there, you make summoning the jailer completely useless. But I also have good things to say, like the killer instinc idea is good and would be useful to some extent.
The parry idea I really like, I think it's creative and the knight does need something to reflect his capabilities written in the lore. However, there are some flaws in it that I noticed. For example, it would completely negate smash hit and has no counterplay around it unlike the plague's infection system and adrenaline's interaction for example. Againts the plague, you can cleanse whenever, so it is your fault if you choose to stay infected and lose adrenaline's healing effect because of it. Also him not being able to be stunned would promote "comp dropping" (pre-dropping) pallets like againts the doctor or the cannibal for example. Because if you don't get rewarded for stunning the killer, why should you even try to go for it? And there's also an uncertainty here for me: would the parry negate the stun effect of a pallet also when the knight carries a survivor? If so, this perry mechanic would make the knight single handedly the most hated killer to go againts. I think if it had a cooldown instead a condition of swinging, it could be more bearable but it would make the power more clunky.
The overall power rework would make it way more harder to understand and this could discourage new/newer players to even give knight a try.
The add ons I totally agree with, I think they are much better designed then the current ones. Makes the devs look like they are clueless to how an add on should be rated and work for certain killers. Half of the current add ons are close to useless because they either have a niche effect or a niche condition. I'd say all of his green and purple add ons are useless compared to his yellow and brown add ons which is funny in a sad way. The iridescent add ons on the other hand, the company banner is very situational and also has almost no effect most of the times and the torn contract is just another generic insta-down add on which lowers the knight's required skill for it's power. But the only add on that I think has maybe a worse effect in this rework concept than the real one is ironically the torn contract. Since you can only summon 2 out of your 3 guards within your terror radius, the survivors that are near the guards are also within your terror radius with maybe a few exceptions if the survivor is at the exact opposite direction of the knight compared to the guard's position and it is not clear if they are already in your terror radius, would they still scream. So I can only see this being useful on the jailer who already has tracking built into him so this would only work if you choose to ignore the survivors on a generator you summoned the jailer to so that later you have a homemade ultimate weapon effect once.
Sorry for writing a whole novel, I am just really passionate about the knight and I do want to see him in a better place than he is in right now but the first thing that BHVR should do is fix his bugs and give quality of life changes like being able the summom a guard to break a pallet without needing to take a step back. Overall I am really happy that someome took their time to come up with a rework for him and I am sorry if I critiqued it too harshly
Thank you very much for taking the time to leave such extensive feedback. I'm going to try to respond to the points in the order that they were presented in hopes of keeping things clear.
Firstly, with regards to The Knight not 'earning' hits mid-chase with the double chase, this was not what I meant. Sorry if this was unclear. Indeed the double chases as a result of dropping a guard mid-chase is entirely valid as a form of skill expression, similar to The Spirit. The point was that in instances when a guard spots a survivor mid-chase the loss of a health state is almost entirely guaranteed, leading to boring gameplay. My point with the lack of 'earning' a hit was based on dropping a guard on a survivor that is outside of a chase. Whilst the health state is earned by The Knight making good use of an information perk (I found 'Gearhead' and 'Scourge Hook: Floods Of Rage' to be the most effective while testing) the survivor hasn't been outplayed by The Knight directly in a chase, this is usually the source of frustration for players. When a health state is lost, players usually want it to be the result of a chase, though there are exceptions (e.g Plague's infection). You're entirely correct about the requirement to use the Map Of The Realm and I think this is just one of the many problems with this characters design. If you don't use it, survivors can very easily avoid the guards and this leads to The Knight only having zoning as a consistent tool in chase. With this add-on equipped the options available to a Knight are better but can also lead to unhealthy gameplay in an entirely new form. This was something that I had hoped to address in the rework with The Knight not requiring any specific add-ons in order to use all aspects of his power consistently.
As I had envisioned it The Knight would move at 3.86m/s whilst performing any of his summoning actions.
For the cooldowns, after any Class Action was complete all Guard Summons would enter an 8 second cooldown. The most recently summoned guard would enter a 16 second cooldown. As for the clashing effects, cooldowns would be reset after a Class Action was finished. For example, if The Carnifex was summoned he would receive a 16 second cooldown and The Assassin/The Jailor would both receive 8 second cooldowns. Then if you summoned the Assassin, as soon as he finished his Class Action all cooldowns would be reset. A new set of cooldowns would be applied with The Carnifex receiving the Standard Cooldown and The Assassin now receiving the Extended Cooldown. Rinse and Repeat This way guards would only have 8 seconds between summons if the summoning was varied every time.
The Assassin after being summoned wouldn't have any floating animation. He would be summoned to The Knight's current position and immediately drop his Standard. Then he would immediately begin pursuing the survivor and The Knight would need to split up from The Assassin in order to guarantee his double chase hit. This would certainly make him similar to The Legion or The Plague by being able to very easily achieve injuries but not downs using this Guard. The difference is that The Knight would have The Carnifex and his Parry as chasing tools in order to achieve the second hit. The double chase was a difficult thing to work with when considering a rework. Currently it acts as a guaranteed health state which isn't very interesting. If it was to be removed entirely as a concept, you would be alienating Knight players that may enjoy this aspect of his power. However, leaving it unaltered could be controversial, given that it's a very powerful and unpopular aspect to play against. I settled on it being able to guarantee injuries as a middle-ground. What do you think about this? Do you think that this is fair or that there are other options for adjustments, if you think this need changing at all?
As for The Jailor, his design was something I went through a number of versions of before settling on this one. Whilst it's true that summoning him to an 'empty' generator would be useless this was the risk reward I had intended. Given that his search radius expansion rate would be 8m/s any Survivor working on a generator that is 'Patrolled' would be guaranteed to be chased. In this way a Knight player would need to make use of information perks or add-ons in order to make effective use of The Jailor and his slowdown potential. Whilst his use would certainly diminish towards the end of a trial as Survivors group up on generators more, I feel that pulling a Survivor away from the objective would still have some slowdown value. Further, the 16m cancelling range was to prevent The Jailor himself being used for 'double chases'. This would restrict his ability to use The Jailor as a form of zoning tool, or to achieve hits in chase. The impact this would have on his utility would vary, I think, depending on the generator spread and the size of the map. Though, I can see that in some instances it may make The Jailor less useful. Do you think that adjustments could be made to this version of The Jailor in order to make him more viable or that a new system would be needed?
With the Parry I can understand to an extent what you're saying regarding the pre-dropping of pallets. This strategy, however, would be vulnerable to The Carnifex and allow for a Knight to clear pallets from the map very quickly. Survivors would still want to make some use of a pallet before throwing it or face losing a number of pallets quickly. As for the purpose of attempting to stun, The Knight would be locked into a 2.2 second breaking animation during a Parry. This means that a survivor who forces a Parry could guarantee that they could make distance on The Knight while The Knight is breaking the Parried pallet. For example if a Survivor is on an unsafe filler tile, The Knight may not wish to Parry the pallet at all. If he did, the survivor would be given distance during the guaranteed pallet break and potentially make it to a much safer loop. In examples such as this The Knight may wish to respect pallets knowing that they don't wish to break them with a Parry and give the survivor some guaranteed distance. This would leave The Knight vulnerable to stunning during examples such as this if they didn't wish to use a Parry on a particular loop. Do you think these examples would be enough to offer Survivors the chance to stun him during a chase? If not, do you think that adjustments could be made in order to improve potential gameplay attached to this aspect of his power? Finally, you have raised a very good point regarding this power whilst carrying a survivor. I hadn't considered how this would work during these instances. After some brief consideration, no I don't think it should. Not only is no-one parrying a pallet with a hilt (I don't even know what that would look like), I also think it would be unhealthy and unfun to play against.
I certainly think that this rework would be less accessible for newer players but I don't necessarily think that's a terrible thing. Some killers are more difficult than others and considered less accessible to newer players, that is just the nature of some powers.
As for the Torn Contract, yes it would activate on survivors that are already within your Terror Radius. This way it would still be useful when either The Carnifex or The Assassin are summoned. After summoning The Carnifex this add-on could potentially alert you to other survivors in the area (similar to how Nowhere To Hide works) or provide the potential for mind-games mid-chase. Further, after The Assassin is summoned this could also alert you to other survivors in the area. This way, if you chose to, you could split your attention between two survivors at once. Do you think this would be enough for the add-on to be useful or that adjustments/a new effect would be needed?
Do not apologise for being passionate about something. Ever. There is nothing wrong with enjoying or appreciating something and wanting to talk about it. I'm incredibly happy and flattered that you were willing to leave such an extensive response to this video. I love discussing these ideas and considering potential changes. Your critique wasn't too much, you were never rude or dismissive at any point, only ever raising valid concerns. These points can add to a discussion and allow for me to learn from my mistakes. Being able to hear about different perspectives and discuss them is what I love about making these videos. Finally, I'd be curious to know where you think The Knight sits currently on a tier list and where this concept would place him. Do you think it would be a buff, nerf or wouldn't impact his performance in a major way? With this rework I was focused mainly on trying to make him more fun rather than directly buffing or nerfing him. I'd be interested to know how you think changes like these would impact his balance and whether it would be a good thing or not? Thank you again for the feedback, it's been very interesting to consider.
@@DBDBalanceBeyond
Thank you for the response! I honestly didn't expect such a detailed response from you, thank you!
I understand that survivors may find it frustating if one of knight's guards make them get hit when they themselves are actually far away from the knight but in my opinion, it's one of those things that depending on the person's attitude and mindset and many other things, is not annoying. Outside a "double chase", guards are very easly avoidable and if you lose a health state in a this situation, I think it is totally the survivor's fault for having bad pathing and I don't feel like they are justified to be annoyed. Also I know that even if they don't get hit, their time gets wasted which also can be annoying but the survivors have to consider that during that time, the knight is completely powerless.
About the rework of add ons:
Again, I think you did a fantastic job and you did adjusted them in a way that none of them would feel required
Now that the cooldowns are more clear for me, I think it is completely fair and would be balanced
The assassin is also really interesting for me because I haven't even considered at the time of writing my first comment that he would drop the standard where the knight stands. I think it would create a very interesting dynamic between the knight/assassin and the survivors. But I also think some might find this more frustrating than the curent way a hunt works since this way, it would start immediately so survivors wouldn't have the few seconds it takes for the knight to summon a guard in his current version, to better position themselves or maybe even try to go to a different loop.
I think that making the hunts' hits only injure survivors would be a good counter-measure againts the frustration of guraranteed hits every time but may make some players playing knight feel weak/powerless at times. I can't really say if this change is needed or not, the summoning penalty also might just do the job of making it less frustrating for the survivor side, but it is hard to say.
I understand the purpose of the cancelling range of the jailor and it's intent but survivors could easly "exploit" it by running around the generator they were on in circles, enableing other survivors that might have been on the generator to stay on it and punish the knight for coming towards the generator since the jailor still isn't that great at actually cathcing survivors (if I didn't miss any additional changes given to the jailor regarding his hunt).
I do think that the jailor does need some changing to be more viable because at the moment he is only good for patrolling and essentially nothing else. But I think some minor tweaking to his stats would make him more viable than the current version and doesn't really need such a big change.
About the parry, in some maps and places, pallets are so close that even with the carnifex the knight couldn't do much againts comp droppers because of the 16 seconds of cooldown. Also one thing that isn't sure for me is that do perks like brutal strenght and fire up alter the parry breaking animation's lenght? If so, the knight would become very similar to the nemesis in tier 2 and above since both can break the pallets very easly with little slowdown that also gives survivors less time to make it to another loop. Also the 2.2 seconds after parrying is almost the same if the knight just immediately went to break a dropped pallet which most killers do anyway after a pallet gets dropped and if the knight knows how to loop which loops (which way to go in a loop to ensure that the survivor has less options to run to), gives the survivors almost no time to reach anything. About the knight not wanting to parry is totally valid but still has the problem of almost always ensuring that smash hit gets countered completely since if the knight doesn't wish to parry a pallet like as you said for example; a filler pallet, he can just respect the pallet and the chance of a survivor potentially use one of their perks is completely in the knight's hands. It may not be such a big problem as I'm picturing it but knowing the average survivor main, they would complain about this even though smash hit isn't particularly a popular perk. I think the windows to stun a knight would be slim and not many which could cause dissatisfaction since stunning takes a bit of skill but parrying wouldn't take many as I imagine.
I think that there could be adjustments or changes to this parry system that could make it better but I am not sure of them. As I said in my previous comment, I think a cooldown would be better than a condition to use the parry or even both but I also said that it would make the power more clunky which I still stand by. Maybe instead of actually breaking the pallet when parrying, the knight would just put his hand in the way of the pallet and pull it up and could recieve a slowdown similar to how the singularity's overclock works when steleporting under a pallet or getting stunned. This could give some level of safety to the survivors since if the knight parries, he only would negate the stun but wouldn't get rid of the pallet. So instead of the survivor needing to run to another loop, they could just run another loop on the current one. This could also be a frustrating gameplay-loop so as I said, I am not sure what changes should be made, this is just an idea I had that I think could be interesting since killers have only 1 interaction with pallets (with the exception of freddy with some add ons and doctor). I also think it is the better choice if the power doesn't work while carrying a survivor, I agree with your decision.
I understand and acknowledge that some killer's power are hard to understand and are less accessible to newer players because of that, I only pointed out this concern because the knight is alreay a quite unpopular character since his whole chapter isn't a very liked one. Hopefully the borgo lighting change will change people's view towards the forged in fog chapter overall.
As for the torn contract, I think it would be a better alternative to the current one but survivors might find it annoying that whenever the knight summon a guard they get "ultimate weapon'd" just because of an add on even if it's iridescent. In my personal opinion it wouldn't be that bad and would be a great replacement and a more healthier add on.
About the tierlist, I don't really ever consider to list killers, I have some idea who would go where but it is also very dependant on settings (for example tournament setting or just a regular basic match) and also dependant on the MMR of the knight and the survivors going againts them. I'd say in an even situation, knight would be C tier or low B tier in a tierlist that goes like S-A-B-C-F (just wanted to clarify this since some people may include more or less tiers in their tierlists). I also don't think this rework would change his placement on the list so much, you did a good job of not buffing/nerfing him but just trying to improve the overall experience of his power for both sides. I think changes like these would be a good thing since that would mean BHVR are open to rework killers almost completely which in my opinion would be a good sign since some older killers do need changes. But realisticly speaking BHVR would never implement such big changes to any existing killer especially after how badly they fumbled the twins rework which is also a bit sad knowing that it just added to the list of things why they will never rework killers that actually have a big need for it.
Again, I am very thankful for your reply, I love the knight with my whole hearth and love discussing about him so I am open to further discussions always!
@@f1p1420 Thank you very much for another extensive response.
Regarding the guard chases outside of 'double-chase', this is fair enough. Attitude's vary on any number of topics (always something I'm interested to hear about) and this is why I try to keep comments like 'This isn't fun.' to a minimum. Broadly speaking, however, I think it's easier to gauge general survivor opinions rather than killer opinions and this is why I usually focus on these aspects in videos. As for the earning of hits outside of a chase, as far as I know, a guards chase speed is related to the length of the patrol path that was drawn. This is based off of what I remember from the changes made soon after the release of Forged In Fog, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. As such Spirit Knight plays that dump a Guard on a survivor from a great distance can lead to the guards chasing at an increased speed and, on rare occasions, earning hits before the Standard even spawns. Also I noticed while playtesting 'Spirit Knight' for this video that the number of disconnects/giving up on hook instances was far greater than what I normally experience. This may be due to the survivors I matchmade with being less willing to put up with gameplay they don't like compared to most players, I'm not too sure. It was based on these results that I decided to include the segment discussing the negative attitudes of survivors towards this killer. To what extent do you think 'fun' should be considered when discussing balance? As you described, instances of getting hit by a guard outside of a chase are fair but not necessarily fun, depending on attitudes. Is that something that should be considered and if so, to what extent is it important? Personally I think fun is the most important aspect of design but also the most difficult to gauge, there will always be a variety of opinions.
With The Assassin, I had thought that the system might be a source of frustration given the difficulty in countering it. I think in most instances that it would be an entirely guaranteed hit but that would be acceptable, given the requirement of The Knight to earn the second health state in a chase without using this aspect of his power. I based this off of the current interaction with The Legion. The Feral Frenzy is a guaranteed health state which most players accept, knowing that it cannot be used to instantly down a survivor.
As for The Jailor, doubling up on generators is something that I had thought would be an inherent part of the survivor counter play. Typically survivors want to split up on generators and repair separately. This power would encourage players to co-operate in order to guarantee repairs on an important generator continue but this would be less efficient in terms of repair progress overall. Further, I had imagined that the Jailor would be used to 'Patrol' generators that are far from The Knight's current position and thus running towards The Knight in order to cancel the chase would have limited potential. Another person had suggested that The Jailor shouldn't be able to 'Patrol' the same generator multiple times in a row but that after a number of different 'Patrols' the original 'Patrol' would become available again. This way a Jailor couldn't be spammed onto the same generator constantly but could be used more than seven times per trial. I was quite fond of their idea and would be curious to hear what you think? Further what alterations would you suggest to The Jailor in order to make him more viable? I wanted to make it impossible for The Jailor to achieve a hit unless the survivor misplays massively and thereby be focused on slowdown. Do you think this is the way his chases should work or that hits should be a possibility in some instances.
With the Parry, perks that alter break speeds such as Brutal Strength would not impact the Parry speed, only the Dried Horsemeat add-on would be able to increase the speed with which a Parry is performed. However, perks that activate after a pallet is broken (such as Spirit Fury or THWACK!) would activate after the pallet has been broken. As for the potential of mind games at pallets, the presented form of the Parry would limit their capability. Another person had suggested that Guard Summons should be tied to the Active Ability button entirely with swapping occurring on a tap and summoning be activated on a hold. This would leave the power button free to be used as a dedicated Parry button. While Parrying The Knight would move slower/not move and if a Survivor predicts that he will attempt a Parry, they could gain distance. This way the Parry would have a similar prediction pattern to The Huntress with players attempting to ascertain when a Parry is or isn't going to occur and drop a pallet accordingly. What do you think of this idea? I thought it would be interesting to play around with and offer more potential for mind games. As for the undo-ing of a pallet drop, this could also be a different option. To be honest though, I think in most instances a player would rather eliminate a pallet (especially a safe one) rather than undoing the drop. Depending on the nature of the Hindered applied this could either be very powerful (similar to a pre-nerf Scamper that basically ignores the pallet drop) or underwhelming (if the Hindered is too punishing) for players to use. Do you think that a system such as this would be difficult to implement fairly or that other restrictions would be needed?
It's never a bad thing to consider accessibility, I just think that some powers are inherently less accessible and sometimes trying to make them more accessible can lead to a reduced skill-ceiling or alienating current fans. The killers that I think should have accessibility at their core are the universally available ones such as The Trapper and The Wraith. These are the killers most likely to be used by newer players and that's where accessibility should be a greater consideration. Do you think that any changes could be made to this concept in order to improve accessibility in any way?
For the placement of this killer on a tier list, this is interesting. I personally would have placed him within the B tier but that's just based on personal experience (I'm no Knight Main). I'm glad to hear that you don't think the changes would alter the capability of The Knight massively, only seeking to improve the enjoyment for both sides. This was the focus of the rework, I just want such a cool character to be more appreciated in his gameplay. Whilst being able to see great overhauls like these would be cool I definitely see these videos more as a way to start conversations about ideas rather than making serious suggestions for changes. BHVR are never likely to make changes based on these ideas and that's not what I want these videos to be. Instead being able to have discussions like these is the real reward, thank you very much for being a part of it.
Finally describing the Twins rework as a 'Fumble' is very generous, I would use more severe descriptions.
Thank you again for taking the time to talk about these ideas, it really means a lot.
@@DBDBalanceBeyond
Thank you for another response and sorry for the wait, I sat on some toughts since the Anniversary chapter PTB and it's killer, the lich's power has some resemblence to this knight rework.
To my knowledge, each guard has a set speed for their hunt regardless of the patrol path the knight has made for them. Maybe I know it incorrectly but I haven't seen a difference in their chasing speed. Regarding the "spirit knight" or any type of gameplay with the knight, I surprisingly didn't experience much DCs or hook give ups or even any bugs at all which is very strange since whenever I see others play knight they always experience some bug with him that is the result of his power's spaghetti code.
I think fun shouldn't be the main reason around a balance change but also have to be considered and not forgotten. It is an important aspect and without it, something could become hated for example skull merchant.
About the jailer, the suggestion of the jailer being able to patrol the same generator after some use would make him much more useful and wouldn't be the definetive worst guard out of the bunch. I think this would make enough of a difference to make him more viable and less frustrating to use at times. Also having the jailor's main use being only slowdown and not hits would be good in my opinion.
As for the parry, I like the base idea of it I just don't/didn't think it would be a fun thing for the survivors to face. But I still think it's a good idea nevertheless.
And for the picking up pallets, the knight would want to do that instead of destroying the pallet to maybe secure a hit on the survivor he is chasing more easly. As I said earlier that the new upcoming killer, the lich, has a power that can pick up pallets which I found really surprising when I first saw it. Seeing this interaction in game makes this concept easier to design. The lich can use the mage hand whenever he is nearby a pallet but slows him down a bit making it more fair for survivors. The knight's parry would be similar, but he would need to stand in front of the pallet when it is dropped to lift it back up. It could be an animation between 1-2 seconds while the survivor could try to run away to another tile or a closeby window depending on what kind of loop they are currently on. For example, on a jungle gym tile, if the knight parries the pallet and if the survivor doesn't stand in front of the pallet meanwhile, the survivor would make the window to stay safe. This would make it so that the survivors have to be more careful about where they'll go after the pallet drop. Also, I mentioned that if the parry would work this way, in my opinion it should have a cooldown which I still stand by, because it would eliminate instances where the knight could just repeatedly pick up a pallet on a loop where the survivor is isolated because there isn't another loop near and since the knight doesn't break the pallet technically, he could bloodlust the survivor on that one loop without a problem.
About accessibility, I don't think this concept could be made more accessible, but it could be more accessible than the current power if the in-game power's description in the menu would speak about every induvidual guard and their capabilities but I think it's a necessity when they would all act much different from eachother.
These concept videos are great and even just to have these conversations about ideas to ptentially changes thigns within the game we love and play is great. I really liked your shape rework concept since recently I started playing him to get his achievements. I think that rework concept was totally fair and would be much much better than the current evil within power.
I also thank you very much for having these conversations with me. It means a lot also for me!
This is fantastic to see, the only thing I wish is that this conversation is in a more organized format, it’s hard to read and remember everything looking at it in post. I feel that this was made from the perspective of playing against knight which when paired with the perspective of a knight player, leads to greatest possible outcome I feel. I just want to see this in a more organized format.
Now actually contributing to the conversation itself, even if I’m abysmally late, with the carnifex no longer being able to initiate a hunt, audio file will become useless but that’s just something that would hold the devs back (and yes, that sounds stupid but the devs are weirdly inconsistent and make dumb decisions a lot so, just a thought) the current path system may be quite flawed as it is, I think that’s mostly because of a few things the devs didn’t consider or account for.
But I think that a full rework like this, while cool, is not only somewhat unnecessary, (as I think the path system works but needs a tweak and a change in how it works.) but is also risky. After all, look at the twins ptb recently. The devs don’t necessarily look at the player base when it comes to HOW they do their reworks but also just how bad it actually was. I’m sure they learned from that mistake, but I think we should stay a bit more grounded as I believe that the current one can work.
As a knight main, here’s what I would do and what I would expect a knight “rework” to ACTUALLY look like, versus what could be wishful thinking. First instead of patrols being a set amount of time, they only traverse the path once. From the beginning of where the Knight spawns the guard, to where the knight was when he begins the patrol. For the Carnifex and Assassin. They despawn immediately once they reach the end. The Jailer still needs to specialize in the patrol, so he can traverse the path a total of three times, ending where he started. The point of this is that the time spent patrolling is dependent on how long the path is meaning, that the braindead part of the zoning is now removed, since instantly dropping a guard would just cause the guard to immediately despawn once they take a single step and I like the idea of being able to create paths as there’s lot of creative things that you can do with this. With this limitation in place, Knight players will have to get a bit more creative with their paths if in chase, and this will generally neuter the more braindead aspect.
Now of course zoning is still not necessarily fun to go against which is the main, not that it’s too strong, just kinda boring. Well, with the way the game is, sometimes you’re just gonna get hit, hell, nurse counter play consists of “die in the right spot.” Sometimes you’ll get caught off guard and out of position, and you’ll be punished for it. If the devs were to take a more grounded route like this, there’s more changes I would make to knight’s base kit, but not now, need to eat, and I’d like to hear your response in case you have some way to completely disregard everything I said, no matter how unlikely that may be.
Wonderful Video! As a Knight player I was really worried about preserving his Macro-based play but I think you did a wonderful job. There are some issues I'd like to address:
The Jailer feels too restrictive. Only being able to use him 7 times in a trial before becoming dead weight doesn't feel great for The Knight,. I think maybe changing the Jailer's summoning restrictions would be good, such as allowing the jailer to patrol a gen again if he has patroled another 2 already, or maybe allowing the jailer to patrol any objective (Totems, exit gates, maybe even allow him to patrol pallets that haven't been dropped)? He could also count as a regression event instead, forcing the Knight to choose between applying pressure with the Carnifex or gaining info with The Jailer
Additioanlly while I enjoy the idea of the parry, it should have more counterplay and more reward. Ealier in the video you mentioned the guard rotations being on the Active Ability button. I think moving the guard summons to the Active Ability button would also be a good idea, so you can swap guards by tapping (like switching clown bottles) and summon them by holding (Such as reloding with clown). The opens up the Power Button for parry. Pressing the parry button would drop the knight into a stance and prevent him from moving. Getting hit with a pallet while parrying breaks the pallet and greatly reduces the stun duration.
Little nitpicks but great video overall! I love seeing your reworks and greatly appreciate someone who keeps the Multi-task nature of Knight in mind when reworking him!
The parry rework is perfect!
I love your idea for the parry! I think the original idea for it was really dumb, because you could just turn your brain off and swing through every pallet, so survivors would just be forced to pre drop, flattening all mindgames into one monolith. Your version would instead create a much more complex dynamic, with all kinds of mindgames and fakes.
Thank you very much for the support and taking the time to leave some feedback.
With regards to The Jailor, his limited usage was something I had considered. My main focus was on attempting to prevent the spam that is often seen with 'Spirit Knight' gameplay. I think that requiring several other patrols before being able to 're-patrol' a generator could be an interesting middle-ground that would reduce the spam but leave The Jailor feeling less limited. With that said, the search radius expansion rate would be 8m/s meaning that any survivor working on a generator whilst it's being 'Patrolled' would be guaranteed to be spotted. The focus was on The Knight making use of information perks and add-ons in order to know when to summon the Jailor and guarantee that chase. Do you think that this would need to be adjusted in any way, if The Jailor were able to patrol a generator multiple times per trial?
As for the Parrying system. Yes. I had wanted to have a dedicated button for Parrying in order to make it more interesting as a power but was limited by having used up the 'Power' button and 'Active Ability' button. This shifting around of button prompts would make the system more interesting overall and allow for more mind-games. I think my only suggestion would be that The Knight could still move while in his 'Parrying' stance, just at movement speed that is slower than the Survivor. This way, the Survivor would still gain distance in chase but not a massive amount. I imagine this would all depend on how long it takes to activate/de-activate the stance. What are your thoughts? Do you think that any other adjustments would need to be made, given that the Parry would be more difficult to pull off?
Finally, you describe yourself as a Knight player. I'd be curious to know what it is that you enjoy about him? He is broadly considered to be an unpopular character. I'd be interested to know what it is that you enjoy about him, I always find it interesting to hear about different perspectives.
@@DBDBalanceBeyond
I think reducing the expansion radius to 6 m/s would be fair if the Jailer could be summoned multiple times. The internet for my idea of requiring 2 other gens to be patrolled was to stop a 3-gen situation where survivors cant work on a gen. If you want to keep the expansion rate the same then maybe a short delay (about 1.5 seconds) before the Jailer begins to expand his search radius could be implemented to prevent instant-hunts, seeing as how it appears that the Jailer is supposed to be the Information/gen defense part of The Knight
As for my idea for parrying it would be a tapped ability that instantly puts you in the parry stance (which visually would look similar the Sqaure Off ash of war from elden ring or the actual Ox guard in fencing) which is why I put the no-movement limitation. It would punish The Knight for being careless or greedy, but allows him to instantly punish survivors who mis-time their stun. When the Knight successfully parries a pallet or other stun (such as head on) he would swing the blade up with the animation lasting 1.25-1.5 seconds (I'm not sure which I prefer) so survivors can still make some distance while still being rewarding for the knight. Hitting a pallet with the parry attack breaks it, and hitting a survivor with it will remove a health state.
finally my favorite part about knight is his Macro-playstyle. I love sending guards out to pressure survivors while I chase someone else. I love getting last-second gen hits with a guard forcing survivors to scatter as I approach. I love watching someone panic as I send out a guard to interrupt their healing and watching as their progress goes down due to sloppy butcher,. He fills a niche that most killers, who's powers are best used at preventing loops (and that knight can do to a lesser extent) don't fill. Also the sound design in spot on, and I love the comically dark aesthetics of The Knight.
@@zhadmina2214 Thank you very much for taking the time to respond.
I think that either of the suggested alterations to The Jailor would make for a good middle-ground. With one of them in place and an extended cooldown applied you could reduce the number of different patrols required to one i.e no generator can be 'Patrolled' twice in a row but you could have 'Patrols' between two generators on a cycle.
It's interesting how you've described the Parry working. I had imagined it working slightly differently but requiring a small 'wind-up' time, with the ability to move during this window. An instant stance change would allow for players with a good reaction time to initiate a Parry even if their opponent took an unexpected action. Further I had only imagined that it would activate on pallet stuns. Having it work in conjunction with other stunning effects would be interesting as well, I hadn't considered this as a possibility.
Finally it's interesting to hear about these aspects of Knight appreciation. Having briefly read through some comments I've seen quite a few players describing themselves as 'Knight Players/Knight Mains'. I wasn't aware that there were so many people that enjoyed playing as him. I think it's because, as you describe, he fills a niche macro playstyle. With this rework that was something I was hoping to maintain, with any rework it's difficult to decide to what extent you should alienate current players. I personally find myself in a strange middle-ground in which I *want* to enjoy Knight, I just don't. I love the character design including animations and sounds. I just find the gameplay to be too clunky and uninteresting for my own enjoyment. Thank you again for taking the time to talk about these ideas, they're awesome to discuss.
another Dead by Daylight and For Honor Cross-over event would go so hard
As a Knight player I both like and dislike things about this idea
I like the idea of cycling through them and having to look at the terrain to summon them, but I'm not a fan of each guard only doing certain things and not all of them being able to chase. I like playing knight because I love the ability to split up pressure. But my problem with splitting up pressure doing double chases is 9 times out of 10 if a survivor is competent, the guard is going to lose them or the survivor is going to grab the standard. I don't really think it's fun to lose the identity of Knight being this multi or double chase machine that he's capable of being to only just being exclusive to Assassin and Jailer. I firmly believe all 3 of them should be able to be flexible, but certain ones are better at their own actions like how they are now. Carnifex being better at breaking down the environment, Assassin chasing, and Jailer zoning survivors out as their current specialties should be what they're better at. But I still think they should all chase.
I feel like the parry could be problematic with some perks. If you paired it with coup you'd be chewing through so many pallets at a loop. But if it worked in a similar fashion to how blight can use his power to hit a pallet, I can kinda understand its use.
I like the summoner and double chase aspect of knight is why i really like playing him. I just hate how buggy his patrol path is.
Please fix Knight first :'( This is the best buff you can do...
Thank you for taking the time to share your ideas.
This is certainly a viable alternative. Whilst I focused on each guard having a specific role and The Knight needing the right tool for the right job, having all guards be able to perform any action could also be viable with this rework. This would reduce but not remove the restriction on The Knight's actions during a cooldown. My only concern with this is that there could be instances where a guard is summoned to the wrong environmental cue based how they're selected. I think that, though, would be a quality of life issue rather than any fundamental design issue. Would you have guards retain certain aspects of their power if this was the case? For example, under the rework concept The Assassin would chase a targeted survivor for 16 seconds. Currently The Carnifex is able to chase for 24 seconds, would you retain this aspect as well as his improved break speed?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond Assassin chases less because he's the fastest of The 3
If you redid the speed and chase duration of all 3, I'd even be okay with that so long as their AI pathing was less stupid
As a knight main this video is very interesting, well thought out and does not remove what I love about knight and his identity. It sounds very practical on paper but I would need to test a in game version of it to sure but overall a very good rework concept
9:46 you can still get insta downs with this because for a insta down you let the guard hit the survivor and then you hit them after so t doesn’t matter if the guard can down
Thank you very much for taking the time to leave some feedback. Under this concept, having The Assassin strike a survivor would cause The Knight himself to immediately enter a 2.7 second cooldown. During this animation he would be unable to launch a basic attack and thus the 'double hit' would be denied. The intention was to make The Assassin effective at gaining the first health state of a survivor but never able to be used to inflict dying.
otz was watching some videos one stream and I so badly wanted him to watch one of yours lol. Too bad he must not have seen any. Love your work :)
Thank you very much for the support. I'd be happy for you to share these videos with anyone if you wish. Adding more voices to the conversation allows for more critique and discussion, which is never a bad thing. My only request is that you don't spam anyone, I imagine that could get annoying quickly.
At first, I thought he would be too weak when u said assassin couldn’t down, but the parry makes up for that beautifully. It gives the knight that little bit of edge he needs to end a chase and makes it more fair for the survivor now that they have more options other than run to the next loop. This rework is perfect. It would be hard to code in the parry due to issues of timing, but still.
As a fellow Knight main,i like the concep. Just a few things.
- Jailor with limited used is not cool, i would rather have other effect but with no limit. What if:
--- Summon a jailor that doesnt move, in his (16-32 meters) radious this things could happen. Survivors are hindered X%/Killer instinct/Survivors buffs goes out 100% faster and debuffs stay frozen (like fearmonger in a gen)/Apply exhaust. This make jailor a ""support"" guard that doesnt chase but help knight or weakenss survivors.
- It would be neat if 3 purple addons buff guards in a way that help/represent 3 knight perks.
In general, yeah good concept, still some pincer attack with Assassin and still commanding your guards in game.
Thank you very much for the support and taking the time to share your ideas.
For the Jailor, a single patrol per generator could certainly be too limiting. The focus was on preventing a Knight from being able to constantly harass the same generator continuously. A suggestion from another person was that the Jailor would need to Patrol a number of other generators before a generator could be 're-patrolled'. This way The Jailor couldn't be spammed onto a single generator but wouldn't be limited to a maximum of seven or eight patrols per trial. Do you think this would be a good middle-ground to stop The Jailor from feeling so limited?
Your options for other effects are also really cool. I especially like the idea of being able to pause negative effects, this could be really powerful in tandem certain status effects. If you like the previous suggestion for reducing the limits on a Jailors patrol, the Cold Steel Manacles add-on would need to be reworked. Adding the buff removal/debuff extension to this add-on could be a way to include this idea. What do you think? The ability to manipulate the duration of status effects is really unique for a killer and I think it'd be awesome to see for The Knight.
For the Purple add-ons this could be cool to see. Personally however, creating an add-on that mimics Hubris may have limited utility. The Knight would have the ability, with The Assassin , to gain injuries very easily. I think having an add-on that easily injures a survivor or applies Exposed may have limited utility. As for Nowhere To Hide and Hex: Face The Darkness, I think that these could be awesome to see in a diminished capacity but as an add-on. Do you have any ideas for what this could look like?
My rework was to make it so you summon and play as a chosen guard, and each guard got a personal buff / attribute. Assassin vaults and deep wounds, carnifex break stuff fast, and jailer inherits perks from Knight.
Gotta say I'd miss the patrol mechanic when it comes to countering bully squads, something only the knight could reliably do.
Incorporate that and its pérfectement
My rework: knight can choose between guards and can summon all the guards all toghether at once (if a surv is chased by a guard they wont be chased by an another one) this can ideally lead to all survs being chased 3 of them by guards and one of them by the knight ( this gives the knight the basekit slowfown that he needs) however if u choose to summon 2 or all 3 guards at once the cooldow for the last guards knight summoned will increase.
The map of the realm and speed boost for pathing will be basekit and the range of path will be increased.
Carnifex and jailers speed will be set to 106 and assasin will be 115.
This was the basrkit idea i have for the power but i nerd more thinking for the add-ons
dbd map desing is made for 1x1 chases, being 2x1 is guaranteed hit most of the time, 4x1 would be overkill and boring for everyone, but he should be able to choose the summon, that i agree.
@@pedropacheco7335 as i said... If a survivor is chased by a guard other guards wont be able to chase the same survivor
@@aliazrael9077 yes man but nothing would stop you from bodyblocking the paths with the other guys, i like your idea but ppl would abuse this more than trying to make the area control Knight that you are talking about, but yeah with some proper code it could be done i guess, like making the chased surv immune to bodyblocking by the other summons
@@pedropacheco7335 the code is already in the game now...when a survivor is in chase with a guard they lose collision
This is great however a few points to note so I’ll start positive parry idea is fantastic unique counter play on pallets specific to that killer however parrying is a timing thing for me instead of tied to the basic attack you can maybe press M2 or Alt at a pallet to trigger a parry punishing you if the survivor doesn’t drop the pallet but rewarding you if they do. Next I feel both the carnifex and jailer are very limited in this version of dbd both due to limited gen kicks and pallets for the carnifex and jailer limited to 1 time per gen (outside of the one add on), the jailer really makes me think of locking down an area and preventing an easy escape there for my idea for the jailer wouldn’t be to lock down gens but instead to lock down an area instead you can put him on gens 1 time but you can also place him anywhere this would say cause the entity to lock out a 20m radius around the jailer locking down pallets unless the standard next to the jailer is claimed? Just an idea not perfect I know but some tweaks/ adjustments would do it better. Carnifex is a difficult one due to yes he his just the big guy break stuff guard so I’d imagine his numbers should be tweaked to make him worthwhile due to his limited usage. All in all tho some very good ideas from yourself Cameron looking forward to seeing more and if you see this let me know what you think! 😀
Idw my brain was following alot like “yes its like freddy you interact with highlight objects” but after analyzing…. wouldn’t it be better for Jailer and Assassin if they worked like the freddy traps specifically? Yeah you lose the map pressure from Jailer but youd be rewarded by placing him near a gen by sacrificing time walking there (Plus it would get rid of the get patrol limit which is not bad but again just a idea you get more Jailer use but have to go and place them)
Thank you very much for taking the time to leave some feedback and share some ideas.
With regards to the Parry, this was something I had considered. I opted for a simple system of activation based on the console player experience. For PC players, adding an extra button in order to activate this feature would be simple enough. However, as I understand it (though I have no personal experience of playing DBD on console), players on console are very limited on input bindings. With so many interactions in the game there isn't an option to add other interactions with new buttons. I think this is why all killer powers can only be used with combinations of the 'Power' button (M2 on PC) and the 'Active Ability' button (Ctrl on PC). This was why I suggested the activation for a Parry to be based on an interrupted basic attack. With all that said I certainly think a dedicated button would be cool and definitely make these potential interactions more interesting. If any console players happen to be reading this, please correct me if I'm wrong. My knowledge of the console side of this game is very limited and entirely based on bits and pieces I've read/heard in videos, comments and forum posts.
As for The Carnifex I had thought that whilst his usage would be slightly limited, there could be a few advantages to his usage. First, he would be capable of breaking pallets and walls without The Knight losing too much distance on the survivor (depending on the safety of the pallet). Further, the ability to break pallets that are up to 12 metres away would be good for dealing with Survivors that might pre-drop pallets in order to avoid the Parry. Do you think that these instances of value would be too limited for The Carnifex? Further, his capacity to damage generators could reasonably be applied mid-chase, improving slowdown and potentially activating some perks such as 'Nowhere To Hide' that could be useful in chase. Again, do you think that these would be too limited to make The Carnifex useful? You mentioned that some numbers could be tweaked, which ones did you think would be useful to adjust and why?
Finally for the Jailor, this was a design that went through many versions before I settled on this one. Whilst I like the idea of The Jailor being able to lockdown an area I personally went with an option that resembles his current strengths more. At present he is focused on tracking Survivors with a wider search radius and longer Patrol duration. This was something I was hoping to maintain under this concept. The idea was that, with an 8m/s search radius expansion rate, he would be able to guarantee a chase on any Survivor that is working on a generator he 'Patrols'. This way the focus would be on a Knight player being able to use information perks or add-ons to decisively guarantee chases and provide slowdown. Do you think that this wouldn't be consistent enough or that the numbers are too limiting? Further, whilst I like the idea of him locking down an area I fear that depending on the implementation it could lead to zoning gameplay. If the summoning grants enough distance, the survivor could simply 'hold W' in order to bypass this aspect of his power. If, however, minimal distance was granted could this become too oppressive? The Knight under this rework concept would be able to easily injure a Survivor thanks to The Assassin, do you think that blocking pallets would be too oppressive? I'm not sure where the happy medium would be, though I'm sure that there could be one. I'd be curious to explore this idea more, as you say The Jailor does make you think of someone that traps Survivors in some way. I think that perhaps summoning a Jailor to Patrol a generator whilst The Knight is in the search radius could apply some effect to Survivors within the search radius but not apply the chase condition. What do you think?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond Hey sorry for getting back a little late for starters the parry system: Square or X on console is definitely usable i play on console mostly myself and for killer i'm not sure if i've seen that input be used once. Carnifex you make some good points on the whole summon aspect and yes the 12m distance to send the Carnifex to would be helpful but his aspect and useage is highly subject to RNG after some thought maybe gens he kicks apply some sort of status effect for X amount of time like a mini dragons grip but maybe not exposed this would give you a reason to get more regression value than a regular kick maybe even killer instinct or the new haunted status effect you mentioned? my whole thought process for this is mainly that a big problem in the longer term would be that you eventually run out of pallets/ gens to kick forcing you to use the other 2 guards and with the jailer also having limited usage you have to accept the longer cool down of continuous use of the assassin because you are forced to use him due to the limited use of the other 2 guards. hope that makes sense? for the jailer if a zoning play style is a worry maybe he can have 2 separate functions the first being he auto hooks survs similar to pyramid heads torment cages denying some perk usage and the other is he can target survs similar to the assassin but maybe he just gives them the hindered but cannot actually damage them himself and after a successful hit the effect goes away similar to how the guards work now a successful hit while the jailer was active would give the jailer an extended cooldown from his normal cooldown so instead of 16 i think you said it would go to 24 and this could not be reduced? appreciate you replying definitely intrigued for another response hopefully this helps make a step in the right direction and we can bring true balance to dbd haha hope to hear again soon!
@@Jamieb2123 No need to apologise for a late reply, I've sometimes taken weeks to respond to comments if I've been busy.
It's interesting to hear about the console inputs. I'm not sure where I've heard about limited inputs from, has this ever been an issue? Further, another person had suggested that Guard Summons could be entirely tied to the Active Ability button with a tap for swapping and holding for summoning. This would free up the power button to be dedicated to the Parry aspect of the power. I thought this was a great solution, what do you think?
As for The Carnifex, I think applying a status effect could be useful for mid-chase application. Perhaps a small Hindered applied to the Survivor would help with improving this Guards aspect? I think that whilst, yes, there is a slight concern that he could become useless after an extended time in a match, I don't see this as very likely. This would require a Knight to have broken every pallet, breakable wall and damaged every available generator eight times. Still I think that improving The Carnifex and his ability in some way could certainly be useful and make him more impactful in a chase.
With The Jailors design, I think that applying Hindered in some way could be an option for improving his chase potential. Another option could be to have less limits on the current Patrols system. I also like the idea of commanding him to performing some sort of hook style action for you, this would be in line with a 'Jailor'. I think that with the caging option some other effects/bonuses as a result of the entrapment would be necessary so that it simply isn't a clone of the Cages Of Atonement. What do you think about this? Would extra effects be needed and if so what do you think they could be?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond
So console inputs on survivor side are very limited killer side not as much as most of the time it’s the attack, move, action and power buttons so there is 100% availability for that.
I agree with the unlikely chance that all available gens and pallets to be kicked very limited scenarios that could happen but maybe instead of the guard hindering the survivor the carniex gives buffs to the knight? For aslong as he’s in range giving the option for potential use other than big guy break stuff? Also this is cancelled once a survivor in range losses a health state from the knight? Buffs could include; 20% missed attack cooldown, 20% increased parry window etc?
Last but not least I really like the idea of the jailer being the lock and key of the knight but unlike pyramid heads cages i believe this should have counter play due to the fact that unlike pyramid head there is no status effect tied to the jailer taking someone away? Not sure on what that could be though or maybe you have an idea to get a status effect that would make the auto hook fair?
Imagine this: You don’t leave your normal view when sending out a guard, it just moves forward as you hold the button and you look left or right to steer it. So you can still walk around while planning a path. So simple, such a difference. It’s the same as the twin’s problem, it’s awkward as hell to use a power that separates you from the actual killer
At first, I felt reluctant as a Knight main, the 2v1 chase scenario being what I love the most in his kit, but after listening to the whole concept, it actually sounds somehow better to play against and as the knight, love the idea of the parry, it could add something to master in his power.
2:09 SAME! I wanted so bad for Patrol night to be good (i mean, he'd need like at least 2 guards at a time to be useful for this), but it's just not rlly viable.
12:18 would it not make more sense for The Knight to just be able to parry the pallet back upright and come crashing down with a basic attack on the survivor that can only injure but never down? The whole point of a parry is to beat your opponent’s attack away just enough to open them up for an attack of your own. To ensure that this won’t become spammable, add a cooldown to the Parry (around 20 seconds or so). Other than that this concept is fantastic and definitely better than how The Knight currently plays. Well done man.
I play Knight sometimes and one of the things I have come to realise is that Carnifex is literally just the best at everything.
Jailer is practically useless and feels like a HINDRANCE because his design is fundamentally flawed. He is supposed to be a patroller that stays out for a long time and alerts you to where survivors are, but what are you supposed to do when Jailer tells you a survivor is there? Like great, now I can stare at the survivor while they make distance on my useless Jailer. He is so bad at chasing he wouldn't be able to catch someone blindfolded. So now what? You know WHERE the survivor is but you can't do anything about it because you can't bring out another guy until the Jailer goes away! Jailer is so bad I've had good survivors intentionally get spotted by him right as he is about to expire to deny me my power. Having a long patrol time is a hindrance, not a strength. The correct way to use Jailer is to put him down then immediately hit him.
The Assassin is not terrible, but he genuinely is not better at chasing than Carnifex. One flaw of the Knight's power is that the minions will always go to where they first spotted a survivor, so even though the Assassin is a little bit fast, he doesn't have enough chase time to actually catch up. I try using the Assassin and he is pretty good in chase when I am pressuring the survivor, but I have always found that the Carnifex is better at hitting survivors than the Assassin.
Carnifex also insta-breaks pallets (if you don't get the stun bug 🙃) and is so good to the point where the Carnifex axe head add-on that makes him appear twice might be one of Knight's best add-ons if he didn't have Map of the Realm and Call to Arms glued into his add-on slots most of the time. Sometimes I sub out Call to Arms for this add-on and it performs well.
I still prefer the Jailor in chase because he has a bigger detection range and is almost the only guard to consistantly detect survivors. The Assassin 4.4m/s are great but in case of double chase it doesn't do much, and outside of double chase if you don't run horsemeat the chase duration isn't long enough...
Great video. I'm really looking forward to the twins or legions rework. Overall, your ideas are really great and I think that BHVR should actually listen to the community and the content creators
Holy cow, I’d want this rework to be implemented for the Parry alone honestly! It really has bugged me that the Knight, who is said to be trained in what I can only assume to be Italian Longswordsmanship, uses his sword more like a hammer. His hands are too close together on the hilt, and he just slams it downward during an attack. It would have been cool if they made his attack animation more similar to the Oni’s, since that actually looks pretty good. But I digress.
This entire rework honestly does sound quite fun, and I absolutely would enjoy playing this Knight a whole lot more.
The Knight wields a greatsword (judging by the looks of it, seems to be a Montante). Greatswords were made to be a counter to pole arms such as pikes, spears, and or poleaxes. I agree that BHVR should animate his hands to be less choked up on the upper part of the hilt of his greatsword. However, using the pommel to break pallets and walls is fairly reasonable.
If you look into how greatswords are used in combat, one of the things you’ll notice is using the pommel as a way of striking in close quarters situations like grappling or wrestling. Everything on these big weapons like spears, poleaxes, greatswords etc can be used in combat and the pommel of a greatsword is no exception.
Furthermore, in longsword combat there are techniques known as the murder stroke where they quite literally grab the blade with both hands and hit the opponent with either the pommel or crossguard, in other words like a hammer.
@@shadowdeath3050 Oh yeah, I am well aware of those techniques as a HEMA nerd myself. I was more just lamenting how in the Pallet Break and Basic Attack animations, he just slams the blade directly downwards and bends weirdly in doing so. And with the Wall Break animation, it looks more like The Knight is using the blade to chop down the wall. I really wish for the breaking animations Knight used some kind of Half-swording to use the pommel in order to damage the Generators, Walls, and Pallets. But hey, at least the carry animation has a thrust using the pommel.
I am glad to see that you seem to be a bit of a HEMA nerd as well, though!
this is so good, you did what needed to be done (from my knight/hag main pov)
I'm all for a Knight rework (Even though I kind of love his current power despite its weakness). Although I worry BHVR would never make a rework for him as reworks don't make money for them so the most we'd get is some QoL improvements to his power I think. If that's the case I'd like them to at least add so you can use the secondary power button to cancel the current patrol route without having to go up to the guard and hit them. And maybe the ability to switch at will with the same button (When no guards are out). Although I doubt they would do that one.
I think taking a page from the new dnd killer might be better. The lich can choose which power to use, but they have separate cooldowns. This should be how the knights summons could work.
Ok question though why doesnt carnifex have any chasing for his class though. Like if he breaks something within 10 to 12 meters he can begin a chase if a survivor is within the radius. Just a thought .
as someone who mains singularity, unknown, and ofc knight, i was worried at first this rework would take away the things I like ab knight but omg this would be so amazing! hoping this gets made official somehow
You don't play any other killer than those three?
@@BeefyZawg oh nah, those are just my favs :)
@@killmaim4 singularity I get he's my fav too but unknown has barely any counter and is annoying, knight omfg delete him
Knight my beloved
As long as the parry sound is satisfying, then I’ll take it.
I love how this rework makes all the guards really unique, but I do have two complaints. It seems to me that the jailor is the most useless since he can be used only a maximum of 7 times. After that, 1/4 of your power is just gone, and there is no guarantee that you will get value out of him during the window he is active. Second of all, it doesn't make sense to me that all of the guards go on a cooldown when you use one. I think it would lead to a lot of scenarios where you want to multitask to punish a mistake from the other team, but you can't because of the cooldown. This really is a really cool rework however, and I like how it still keeps many aspects of the old design!
Thank you for your support and taking the time to leave some feedback.
The intention with limiting The Jailor summons was to prevent The Knight from spamming Patrols on a generator continuously. Given that his search radius expansion rate would be 8m/s, Patrolling a generator with a survivor currently working on it would lead to a guaranteed chase. In this way a Knight would want to make decisive use of information perks in order to guarantee a chase. With that said it could certainly be too limiting. Someone else had suggested that simply requiring the Patrol of a number of other generators before making the original generator 'Patrollable' would be a good middle-ground. What do you think of this? Do you think that would that be enough to improve The Jailor's potential or that other alterations would need to be made.
For the cooldowns, this was intended to incentivise The Knight to prioritise certain tasks. With the ease of achieving injuries through The Assassin players may see healing as useless, similar to how players avoid healing against The Legion. But since it would force a cooldown on other guards, the utility of healing would be to incentivise summoning The Assassin and limit the use of other guards for some time. Do you think that reducing the duration of the cooldowns would be enough or that a new cooldown system would be needed?
I’d love to see a rework where the survivors could fight the guards by finding swords around the map. And when a guard catches up, the survivor has to hit 2 difficult skill checks to beat the guard in combat. I’d also like the guards AI to be revamped. Moonwalking, mind gaming AI would be hilarious.
Thank you for taking the time to share your ideas.
I think that having Survivors directly fight the Guards would be really awesome. I can just imagine a Meg trying to take on The Carnifex and getting absolutely clapped.
Also as for improved AI, this would be really nice and allow for a more complex power. I seem to recall at some point BHVR saying that we were going to get functioning killer AI in custom games but I haven't heard anything recently. Do you know if this was the case or not?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond Not really. I heard they would give touch ups to the survivor bots because they were dodging ranged attacks. Huntress hatchet, Pyramid head’s punishment, Nemesis tentacle.
The Parry idea would be interesting to see! Like if you stun him, or what not for like 60 secs if you pallet stun him, he can chop the pallet and try and hit you would be interesting (ofc if it shows up on the screen “he can parry you btw)!
The knight got that dark soul parry buff. I hope some planetary aliment level event makes this a actual rework.
I really like this rework idea, it makes me wish we could play a ptb with these changes.
So what happens when a survivor is just even mildly competent?
Who cares about the Carnifex?
If the Assassin is gonna chase, he better catch them with a measly goddamn 110.
Also, Guards can't down? What happens when I'm already injured? I'll just tank it and put your ass on cooldown
What do you mean Jailor patrol "once per trial" this is insanity
That parry is game design fan fiction, I'll just predrop and flashlight you.
This is useless, Instant D tier
Agreed. May not need to be this rude, but this rework is lacking extremely in the boldness department, to the point it self-cripples him.
@@kingol4801ironically this rework spares him more than the official rework coming soon that completely guts him
I want to see your take on a trapper rework, I have some ideas myself but I want to hear yours.
I really can't agree with this rework, i love knight, he's one of my favourite characters and quickly becoming my main, but this rework makes his guards feel so underwhelming, even more than they already are. I appreciate the effort but a total rework knight is overkill, all he really needs is some quality of life changes.
The parry mechanic sounds nice but with none of the guards able to actually down you kinda run into the old legion problem of being a nuisance rather than a threat
Thank you for taking the time to leave some feedback. This was something I had considered when limiting The Assassins capabilities. I didn't want to create a rework concept that boiled down to 'Legion 2.0'. With this in mind, I had added the Parry ability to improve The Knight's own capabilities. By itself I don't think it would be too impactful but in tandem with The Carnifex and some add-ons offering improved chase potential I had thought it would be enough to make The Knight more threatening. Do you think this would be enough to elevate The Knight's chase potential or that he would still feel limited? If so are there any adjustments you would suggest in order to try and tackle this?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond I think the carnifex being able to apply on break effects is a fair trade for losing the patrol mechanic, I think the jailer being a harasser and guarding is what he needs to be, and as for the assassin just letting him down people is really all he needs maybe make it so he can't track people in deep wounds so he can't chase people tunneled off hook or the same person he just hit since he applies deep wound on hit.
I have some questions and concerns. The standard, did you get rid of the haste and endurance it gives? I think that's a really silly mechanic and should just end the chase. Another thing to address the knight is a buggy mess but this one is intentional I think. Pre Dropping a pallet makes the guards go around currently, and then to the pallet; even if they run by the hunted survivor. This has to go, it's overpowered and is a free getaway from the assassin. Also, currently in the game all guards slow down when they go through a dropped pallet or window so there's no need to implement it. Also, if an injured survivor runs into the assassin that's chasing them, will they get a sprint burst from being hit? I hope not because that's bad design, my reasoning is it just gets rid of the threat in chase and there would be no counterplay for the killer, and the killers power should be strong. If you wanna keep it I think that's fine, but I think you should allow the knight to always see the aura of the assassin during a hunt. Currently if the knight is in, I think 12 meters of the guard that is in chase the knight can't see the guards aura. I think this will allow for good play on both sides but what do you think?Another question, does the jailer drop a standard? Also for the jailer, if the hunted survivor runs intentionally towards the knight and enters 16 meters, I feel their needs to be a punishment for that. Hypothetically if the knight is moving away from the survivor but they are running towards the knight, let's say the jailers movement speed increases by .2 for every 4 seconds spent running at the knight; what do you think?Also how would elevation work for it, let's say two different floor? Would the jailer drop chase if the knight entered the radius above or below them? Either way thank you for the video!
Thank you for taking the time to leave a comment.
For the first question, honestly I had forgotten that grabbing the Standard grants these effects. I don't remember the last time I saw someone grab the Standard, it's such a rare occurrence. Under this rework, no, grabbing the Standard wouldn't grant any bonuses, only ending the chase. The focus on The Assassin dropping a Standard would be to give a Survivor the option to avoid The Assassin outside of 'double-chases'.
For the pallet drops, I thought that interaction was a bug. The problem I found when play testing ahead of this video was that because The Knight currently has so many bugs, I don't know which weird interactions are intended mechanics and which aren't. Under the rework I imagine that a guard would always phase through a pallet, regardless of circumstance.
As for the slowdown, I should have specified that it would be far greater than the currently applied slowdown. This way a survivor would be able to consistently avoid guards in a solo chase if they make good use of the environment.
If The Assassin made contact with an already injured survivor; yes they would gain a small sprint burst. This is the same as what currently happens with the Legion's feral frenzy. The onus would be on a Knight to not summon an Assassin to chase an already injured survivor as this would have very limited utility anyway. Further, as for seeing the Guards aura during a chase this would be very useful to have and is how I had envisioned it working. I thought that this was supposed to be how the guards worked currently and that the lack of seeing an aura was a bug, I'm never sure with The Knight's design these days.
With the Jailor, no, he wouldn't drop a Standard. The idea of The Jailor is to provide slowdown and offering a Standard could seriously hamper this ability. As mentioned above, phasing through a vault or thrown pallet would apply a much greater speed reduction than it currently does. This way a survivor that is being chased by The Jailor would need to make use of the environment and not just grab a Standard at the nearest available moment. For Survivors who run towards a Jailor, I didn't think that this would be too much of an issue. In most instances I had imagined that a Jailor would be summoned to a generator in the distance meaning that running towards the killer wouldn't be an option. With that said, on smaller maps it may be a problem. I think that impacting a Jailor's movement speed based on movement could be risky. What if a survivor was running towards the killer unintentionally? I think a middle-ground could involve applying the Survivor with Hindered if they enter the 16 metre radius. This way a Survivor would be in close proximity to The Knight, leaving them at risk and with a reduced movement speed. This would allow The Knight to potentially gain a free hit in these instances. Do you think this would be a good middle ground or that it wouldn't be punishing enough? Finally for the elevation affecting this, no. I don't think that entering a 16m radius but at a different elevation should cancel the chase. This would make the chase very easy to counter in certain maps (e.g Gideon Meat Plant) and Main Buildings. Whilst this could lead to rare instances of double-chases with The Knight, I think that it would be easy enough for a Survivor to avoid in most instances. What do you think should occur in these instances?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond Friend, thank you for making such an amazing video alongside taking the time to answer all my questions. Yes, I think your suggestions for the jailer is a very good idea as long as the hindered isn't like 3%, because knight currently has a purple add-on (blacksmith hammer) that applied a 3% hindered after a hunt ends and it's really bad. Maybe 5% hindered? I agree with what you said, a 16 meter radius around the knight or maybe further since I can't remember when the jailers hunt is supposed to end when they get close to the knight, forgive me I can't exactly remember. What do you think? is 5% too much or too little?
Can someone send this to Behaviour ? I mean, it may requiert some tweak here and there, but honestly it's extremely good !
id disagree that patrol CANT work, i 100% think its salvageable
good ideas ive seen thrown around are:
-allow multiple guards at once but add a minimum patrol length and remove the haste buff on knight then other changes to facilitate this (i like this cus it feeds well into the power fantasy)
-the minimum length idea in general
-buffing guards to 115% speed but giving survivors 12% haste while chased by a guard
-in general, giving survivors buffs while effected by a guard
Great I love the rework and I hope he gets a DnD themed skin he gives oath-breaker paladin vibes
Love the parry idea tbh
I think he's even worse now, u stated issues at start n those issues seem to still n there after ur rework cept worse maybe I misunderstood it idk but he seems even worse to be chased by, still have the ur gonna hit no matter what stuff
Thank you for taking the time to leave your feedback. The focus with this rework was to maintain The Knight's identity but altering the way Guards work in order to reduce frustration felt by both sides. The double chases would only be achievable with use of The Assassin who would only ever be able to injure. In this way The Knight would be able to easily gain injuries with The Assassin (similar to The Legion's Feral Frenzy) but without the ability to down a survivor in this way. This would mean that a Knight and survivor would need to engage in regular chase gameplay without the guaranteed hits if The Knight wanted to down a survivor. Do you think this would be enough to reduce the frustration felt by players or that the 'double chase' concept should be entirely removed?
i love to see your take on how to rework freddy krueger
Tbh it sounds like predrop pallet enforcing gameplay. Kidnapping of assassin's ability. Idk just poking holes in this, not hating
Thank you for taking the time to leave your feedback.
Whilst pre-dropping of pallets would be a way to avoid the Parry I don't think it would always be the correct play. With use of The Carnifex, The Knight could quickly remove pre-dropped pallets and gain distance on a Survivor. Further, the Parry would lock The Knight into a breaking animation and allow a survivor to make distance. This way a survivor isn't entirely punished for throwing a pallet that is parried, it would still allow for them to make distance. Do you think that pre-dropping would still be the most viable option for playing around his power? If so do you think that alterations could be made in order to reduce the reliance on pre-dropping?
As for The Assassin, I'm assuming the term 'kidnapping' is referring to his reduced capabilities in chase. The idea with this was to maintain the 'double chases' that are currently unique to The Knight but without making them too oppressive. Currently a 'double chase' acts as a guaranteed health state. By reducing this to injuries the focus was on The Knight having to earn downs with a regular chase using his Parry, Carnifex, add-ons and chase perks. In this way the 'double chases' aren't removed but also aren't too oppressive for survivors to play against. Do you think that this would be too limiting to his gameplay? Would you make alterations to The Assassin or do you think that an entirely new system would be needed in order to have him be more threatening?
@@DBDBalanceBeyond I think it would be better to give knight a charge attack, where he raises the sword before slamming it down.
If the survivor chooses to drop a pallet, slam will break a pallet AND deal damage to the survivor (essentially normal M1 attack).
If the survivor chooses to vault a window/pallet, same idea.
If the survivor chooses to run forward, the knight will slam into the ground and suffer effects of missed attack.
Because this ability takes time to put up, and the animation would be pretty obvious, even if 1 second long, it won’t be oppressive.
But it would be very Berserk-like with Knight being able to break pallets AND people by default.
Comparatively to Nemesis, it will allow Knight to also hit survivors amidst animation, but only when very up-close.
Would parry work with his perk hubris?
Thank you for taking the time to leave a comment. This was something I had considered but wasn't too sure on and so didn't include it in the video. On the one hand it would be a cool interaction and encourage the use of a Knight perk on The Knight. However, given the ease with which The Assassin could achieve injuries applying Exposed may have limited utility. Further, I think that it could make balancing this perk difficult. If it became useful on The Knight, buffing it may be dangerous. If this were the case and it wasn't buffed as a result, it would continue to be ignored by the majority of killers. I'm honestly not too sure what I would do with this interaction. What are your thoughts on this?
@@DBDBalanceBeyondI agree with all your thoughts about the dynamic, but what I think it’s kind of meant to be niche and used with spirit fury and the whole shebang, but even if it wasn’t useable with parry if the knight gets stunned he can send out the fast breaking guard (I forgot the name) and just go around. So in conclusion I think no, but only because there’s another way with the guards.
While we're at it can we change his dorky ass run animation
the intro is a bit brutal... just my opinion. Good video overall! i dig the rework
Ima be the one guy that says skull merchant is alot worse
Tho i do agree Knight is somethin
Knight skull merchant and trickster are annoying
As a knight main I’m shocked ppl hate him so much ;-;
Shocked? Literally the day of release ppl didn't like him he's the easiest killer to play other than wraith he doesn't take skill it's the AI doing the work for u
@@BeefyZawg Which is fun?
Contact-less killers are always fun
@@kingol4801 hillbilly I don't mind huntress but she's played a lot same with Wesker, I like artist I like going against demo but my fav to go against is doctor
This feels as if you used the Vaccinator from TF2 in DBD
Hello! Main knight here.
I sadly disagree with 90% of your proposals.
Don't be angry but I think you know very little of how this killer works...
The knight has many issues and bugs but your proposal are basically unviable... they will make the knight the worst killer by large margin.
They appear a rework and balancing but basically it seem TO ME you are removing everything from the knight that makes you frustrated as survivor.... I hope you understand that we can do this game with every killer and every killer would be completely destroyed by it.
On top of that, BHVR showed they are not able to rework and they will probably just change some numbers if they decide to work on him.
For example... you said the knight can summon a guard with a 2 seconds focusing watching the environment while he walks slower than survs.
Just remember this ok?
- Carnifex: breaks walls, pallets and generators.
1) Generators: While it is nice to apply pop and NTH with a carnifex, pop (the main kick gen perk) is going to be hard nerfed and probably noone will use it anymore, this playstyle will be less viable.
On the other side, if I do not have a kick perk and I need to focus for 2 seconds on a gen to damage... well... it is better to simply kick it, this way the guard is not in a cooldown... this ability is often useless...
2) Walls: Breaking walls is the same, why I want a 16 seconds cooldown? Just kick the wall, I understand I can watch the wall while I walk and send the guard but the half of a second I save moving away does not worth the huge cooldown i am going to have on carni and the other guards aswell.
Can be handy only in case I am going straight to a wall and I need to pass through.
3) Pallets: if a surv drops a god pallet 2 seconds of charging carnifex are more than 1.8 seconds kicking. I want to kick a god pallet. If the pallet is not god, 2 seconds of charging while moving slower than the surv and he will run to another loop. This is the best scenario and, as we can see, the situation is identical as before.
Now carnifex is 90% useless and 10% weaker but not better gameplay wise, still we have as main counter to change the loop.
- Assassin: spawn on me, chase for a deep wound hit, it can't down.
The point here is that assassin can hit a proficient survivor only if it spawn on top. If I charge 2 seconds the survivor will immediately run away, as soon as assassin appears he is 8 meters away, as soon as he has 16 mt of detection the survivor is outside the radius. The assassin will never detect.
And even if he detects he cannot catch because the distance is too much.
Sadly the assassin, almost useless guard, is the best one because in this rework he serves the minor purpose to push the survivor away from a loop being the only one able to sandwitch.
But this is the exactly gameplay you wanted to avoid!
- Jailer: defend a gen for 2 seconds.
If you are spawning the guard on a gen you are pretty close to the gen, probably your TR can be detected even if you are running monitor.
The survivors will move away from that gen. The jailer will not spot anyone and even if he spots as soon as you get close he disappear. The jailer Is the worst chaser, I see you increased his speed from 102% to 105% but still this is not something scary, the survivor can move away and avoid it, or greed, trigger the chase and outrun it.
This jailer is not able to defend efficiently, a drone or a phantasm trap is something more scary at this point.
After 2 seconds the gen is free to go. So you protected a gen for... 2 seconds.... the time you wasted walking towards the gen worth more...
- Parry: So... if they stun me during an attack... instead of 2 seconds stun that can be reduced with enduring I have a forced breaking animation of 2.2 seconds that cannot be reduced in any way? This is a nerf man. If the pallet do not stun the survivor will play the pallet, if the pallet stuns the survivor knows I am stuck for even more time, in 2.2 seconds he can make 9 meters of distance and 10 meters of distance need 15 seconds to be recovered.
And I am not free to keep the pallet in case I need it (maybe it is weak or I have some perks).
Just let compare the parry with the perk "spirit fury". Spirit fury needs to be charged but:
- Works with every pallet stun, with or without the attack;
- 2 seconds of stun, not 2.2;
- The first one is a surprise, the parry is not;
- Can combo with enduring.
And still noone runs spirit fury alone, everyone knows a spirit fury without an enduring gives you no real advantage often.
Parry is not only worse than a perk but cannot even combo with enduring and with.... HUBRIS! Knight's own perk!
Man... as I said... I understand your good will.... Knight's situation is fairly complicate but... no... this is not the way to balance and rework a killer, just removing and gutting things you do not like blindly....
Knight also it is not that strong, you cannot simply take away things like you do on blight....
With knight I think you should ask to some mains....
How does it feel to main one of the easiest killers who lets AI do all the work also the last sentence "asking knight mains" just bc someone doesn't main knight doesn't mean they don't get an opinion u don't own the character nerd
@@BeefyZawg So this community works like this? If someone has a different opinion and politely points out is insulted? Good to know.
THIS is exactly what knight mains had to deal with for more than 1 years. People thinking their killer is super easy and knight's mains can be treated poorly.
@@zxzolfo4114 so this is how this community works bro yapps for a solid 10 hours and wants ppl to listen go back to bed unc
@@BeefyZawg I have no idea what are you talking about...
@@zxzolfo4114 you writing a whole essay above us, bro you were yapping a lot
I was a Knight main back then, but I stopped playing him because of the riddiculous amount of bugs and your guard IA being absolutely dumb af. I really like the idea of the rework, however, I fear that Knight would only be able to use Parry out of his power. I'll give my opinion on why I think summoning each guard would be a waste of time. Before we start I want to precise that I don't want to roast you or anything, I just think that you had a really cool idea but this idea came with a lot of problematic playstyle that you tried to get rid off (wich is fair) but which also nerf enough the basic power to make it mostly useless. Don't take anything personally !
First of all, without any doubt the strongest guard : Carnifex. Carnifex has the ability to shred through pallets really quickly, faster than demo shred, but with the downside of the bug summoning that will prevent you to summon him if you're to close of a pallet or in a narrow space, meaning that you have to stop few steps sooner, allowing survivors to continue looping if they pay enough attention. Most of Survivors don't notice that and it's why this is still the strongest guard, but if they would play some Knight games they would figure that really quickly. (I'm just giving some context stay with me).
However right now you need first to be within 12 metres of the pallet and for the pallet to be dropped and wait 2 seconds at reduced speed to break the pallet. Any Survivor paying attention will see that you're looking strangely the pallet while you're Carnifex is active and will just leave the loop, and with your reduced movement speed you won't even benefit from them leaving the loop.
Secondly, I think this is Nice to have the Carnifex benefit for pallet/breakable wall/generator breaking/damaging perks, now that you can only damage a generator 8 times damaging a generator with a guard is less than useless, but counterproductive, but for the same reasons, I can't see any utility for using the Carnifex instead of damaging the generator manually. Sure you would lose less distance on the survivor, but you would be unable to use your power for 8 seconds after...
Now for the most uselles guard : the Assassin. I know that for someone who starts as a Knight, Assassin could be consider the best guard, I thought that too, but indeed, his only ability is to chase survivors, but he is kinda worse than the 2 others for that (Carnifex chase longer and Jailor is more certain to chase). Sometimes you can drop the Assassin on top of a Survivor, and he would still not chase them for radius reason, and this is even worse without Map of the Realm. Assassin is really pretty bad, and I think this would be even worse with this rework.
First of all, and this is something that is alto true for the Carnifex, the need to see the pallet/breakable wall/generator/survivor may lead to bugs and could also neglict even more his power. For the Carnifex that mean that you can't for example break a jungle gym pallet from the other side of the loop, you need to go see the pallet, start your power, wait 2 seconds, and then it is broken. This is more than enough to let the Survivor know what you're doing and leave the loop without any danger. This may be still a niche issue on Carnifex, I think this is way more important on Assassin. Think about big structure such as Shack for example. If the Survivor loops well, you have really little windows to get them, and even if you do you then need to wait 2 seconds at reduced speed to summon the assassin, and only then you're allowed to use his pathetic power. I don't know for how long the chase will stay, but if it's the curent duration, let me warn you that you almost never get a hit with him, even sometimes when you're double chasing because he can get passed easily, but here double chasing would be even harder because you lose a lot of distance on the Survivor (1.48 m exactly, which take 2.5 seconds to gain back on a straight line, but even more on loops). And as you get a massive cooldown when the Assassin finally get his victime, the only benefit of using him instead of M1 is the Deep Wound Status Effect, some boring slowdown...
Ok now for the Jailor. Jailor is a strange case. His extended radius makes him really useful in chase but he is mostly used for 3gen. I can see that you tried to keep this patrols theme, but limiting his effect to once per gen is really rough. The reason why Jailor is not that good for camping gen is that Survivors can just... Start a chase with him... Yeah I know this looks dumb, but as he has an extended detection radius, he can spot you from very far, so also very far from the Knight, and with his slow speed and his normal chase duration, he can't do anything without the Knight, but if a gen is at 90%, there is no way the Knight goes through all the map to take a double chase almost finished by the time he gets there, letting the gen be done. Now this is even worse because if a Survivor do that, you just lose your power on this gen. Maybe at the start of the game when there are 7 generators, this can still seem useful, but in late game, with only 4 generators, you have 4 instances of your power that can be denied really quickly as I explained sooner. If this idea seems for me the best of the 3, (being at least a bit useful), it's also the only one that you can run out.
This also lead to another issue. What happened at Shack, when you run out of Jailor, and have already summon the Assassin previously and there are no pallet to break ? You just have to wait the extended delay to use Assassin again. I really like the delay, allowing you to cycle through guards but still rewarding using different guards, but as their effect is so limited now, you can't ensure that you can use every one when you want, so this may lead to double cooldown really often. I think that no killer wait for such a long time to get back their power, even more for such a weak power.
The M1 situation can be even worse in another situation : The survivor is injured. Just think at the infamous Shack-jungle gym of tfe Chapel map : the Survivor has strong enough structures to never drop the pallet, you can't use your Jailor because he ran out, and using your Assassin won't do anything as the Survivor is already injured... The only 3 killers that can be as powerless are Trapper, Myers and Freddy (without trap, T1/T2, awoken Survivor) and I can guarantee you that it's not the most pleasant experience.
However, I really like your parry idea, making the Knight having some power by himself is definitely something needed, at least for lore coherence, and even more with this rework making him really M1 dependant. The 2.2 seconds seem fair to me, maybe we would have to see ingame if it's not too busted. I just have 2 "bad" thoughts about this : Wouldn't it make Carnifex even more useless now that you can by yourself destroy pallet quicker ? And wouldn't it make Hubris useless as it's not really a stun, and so making the Knight Adept a nightmare to achieve, as he's definitely a lot weaker and would only have 1.5 perk with him ? (Because one is a hex)
I may not have make this really clear, but I don't think this would completely destroy Knight. It would still be somewhere between the bottom of D tier and the bottom of E tier, maybe as strong as Myers, still better than Freddy but not as powerful as The Trapper ? I wasn't saying it would be the weakest killer of all time, but most of his power would be really really niche if not useless, and if it would certainly make him more nice for the Survivor Side, but really boring on the Killer Side. Knight is a killer about guard management and prediction. You have to always consider the current guard for both side to play optimaly, using your Jailor at the wrong place can deny your power for an absurdly long time and predroppinq pallets won't help you if the Knight has his Carnifex. I really like to compare the Knight with the Nurse for the Spirit Knight. Imagine Nurse but blind : You can be the best Nurse in the game, if you can't see the Survivors you can't down them. The counterplay of Nurse is to try to hide yourself as much as possible and always be imprevisible. This is the same for Knight. If you're running straight to a Jungle gym he will certainly cut you off with a guard. However if you seem like you're running straight to a jungle gym but as soon as he goes on Spirit form you go elsewhere, you'll deny his power for a bit and you'll aswell make a lot of distance on him. Moreover you have a warning that he goes onto Spirit form as his TR will suddenly disappear. I don't think that Spirit Knight is a problematic playstyle. It just rewards Knight for being good at prediction and punishing Survivors healing under the hook. Survivors also seem to forget that you can deny his power by hiding or by taking the flag, but even when you run to another tile, the Knight loses its power for the patrolling duration, and that can be a lot with the Jailor. The tile where you're going to get hit are the corner tiles, but what Survivors complaining about the Knight seem to forget is that every Killer can get you at these tiles. I don't find the gameplay of Singularity, Clown or Huntress more engaging, and I think it's normal that you get hit when you're cornered. Survivors are often afraid of the green radius, but if there is a wall between you and the guard you can come easily back to the center of the map.
I'm not saying Knight gameplay is really engaging, but at least his power has counterplay. Legion seems to me really worse as you can't really avoid their power but in addition their power won't lead you to a fun chase but to mend. I think that the solution is not to change completely his power, but to make his counterplay better. Feel free to roast me in comments for defending Knight !
Now for Add-ons. I think you did a pretty good job for your power. Once again, I think the problem for why Add-ons won't be useful is because the power (imo) is kinda meh. But at least Add-ons are coherent with his power. Currently, Knight has 5 worth it add-ons, from which only 3 are used (and I say 3 to not say 2). I think he has some of the lamest Add-ons after PH. I'll go after each one real quick :
•Tattered Tabard :
This is unfortunate as we start with the one I disagree the most with :')
5% is really much. REALLY REALLY much, particularly for a brown with 0 downside. This could ensure hits almost every time. I won't say it' s busted because you still have the 2.7 cooldown + not working against injured Survivors, but it definitely won't make chases more engaging...
•Pllaged Mead : This one is quite nice. I don't see a lot of situation where you need to be 16m away from the pallet to break it but it's achieving its purpose for a Brown.
•Map of the Realm : Same, quite nice, good info for a Brown.
•Gritty Lump however is a bit strong for a Brown. Maybe it should be at least Green, even Purple, and make it something like 5 tokens with 6% per tokens? 40% is a lot considering it could stacks with Coup de Grâce...
•Treated Blade : I'm not a huge fan of Slowdown Add-ons, but yeah I guess it makes sense.
•Dried Horsemeat : Once again I have to test ingame to see if it's too strong or not but it seems fine to me.
•Cold Steel Manacles : I mean, this kinda fix the Jailor issue, but it would 1) makee the Knight as Add-on dependant as currently with Map of the Realm 2) Put a bit of ghaze on a haemorrage : 1 token is not really enough...
•Call to Arms : It's a nice one, but same as Hubris, wouldn't it be useless because of parry ? And I don't know if it's really good as it's power is already pretty weak... But it would certainly help situation when you have to wait 16s because you only have one guard that you can use...
•Battleaxe Head : It is really nice info, I approve it to give some use to the Carnifex.
•Town Watch's Torch : Eeeehhh... I don't actually know... I would think this is quite good ?
•Ironworker's Tongs : Good good good, a bit too Good though as you also get info on where they are but they don't, maybe reduce this to 20s? And this also suffer from the Jailor's issue but it would still worth it I think.
•Grim Iron Mask : Yeah ok, I can see that. We definitely need more useful blindess perks/add-ons (not like that laughable Clown Add-on...)
•Chain Mail Fragment : Maybe too much ? Parry can already be quite strong, 5% for 5 seconds is a lot, this should be more like 2.5%...
•Broken Hilt : Nice, definitely better than the previous one... But it seems to me that for Green it's 80s, isn't it?
•Lightweight Greaves : Oof... As you can't spawn that many Jailors, this may not be busted but 7% is a lot I think...
•Healing Poultice : Oof again, 45 seconds are harsh, especially for beginners, maybe give it a condition, as you could make Survivors always Broken by spamming Assassins, this would feel really unfair, especially for beginners...
•Flint and Steel : semi-oof : This is a bit busted info for generators, and useless for pallets... I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do...
Blacksmith's Hammer : Yeah why not, but maybe reduce it to 5 seconds ?
•Knight's Contract : Definitely better than the Exposed one. Really fun. I approve it a lot. I just wanted to if it triggers when you already are in the TR, as it would make it almost useless...
•Iridescent Company Banner : Yeah really nice, I approve it. Definitely less fun than the other iri or the previous version, but still Nice. The initial cooldown really compensate the late effect, without being to oppressive at the start. Really good for an iri.
Well, most of the Add-ons are great, and could definitely make Knight stronger despite his weak basekit. I'm not sure if it's a great thing as Killer should not be as Add-on dependant as Myers, but yeah... Definitely better than BHVR's ones...
Ok I thought about another rework :
What if :
1st : Map of the Realm and Call to Arms are made basekit. We need way less Add-on dependency.
2nd : We fix all bugs that destroyed the experience of Knight players
3rd : The flag doesn't spawn at the location of the guard, but rather in a random spot not too far from the Survivor. The Survivor can see its aura in Yellow and becomes whiter until it's ready to be picked up. This would make the Survivor being able to counter Knight's power way more reliably as only him can see the flag aura (the Knight could still see it as an object, but not its aura).
4th : The idea of choosing your guard is great QoL, with a longer CD for preventing players to spam only one guard.
5th : The Area of detection is marked in green, for beginners to understand where they can hide and where not.
6th : If a guard is chasing a Survivor and you get stunned by another Survivor, you can parry the Pallet as you've described it. I feel like parry is a bit too strong in your version, so I think adding this condition could ensure the Knight isn't powerless in a chase with another Survivor, but not make it OP for a single Survivor.
7th : The Knight can recall a guard that has been patrolling for 6 seconds, for not this f Jailor denying your power for these 24 seconds (sorry it's really making me mad...)
Nah we roasting you for that yap session
Thank you very much for taking the time to leave feedback. I'll respond in the order your points were made in hopes of keeping things clear.
Starting with The Carnifex, if a survivor sees that you're summoning The Carnifex to break a pallet then yes they would absolutely need to leave the loop. The difference between this and a regular pallet break is The Knight's mobility. Being able to move, even slowly, whilst a pallet is being broken would reduce the distance a survivor makes whilst leaving the loop. Further, I'm not sure how using a Carnifex to damage generators would be counterproductive. Whilst there is certainly a limit to 'damage events', using The Carnifex to apply regression whilst losing less distance to a survivor would have it's benefits. Further there would be the option of some chase potential if this aspect is used in conjunction with perks such as Nowhere To Hide. The eight second cooldown may be too punishing, this value isn't a fixed one and could be easily reduced if necessary. Do you think that some number adjustments to the summoning and cooldowns would alleviate issues?
For The Assassin the goal isn't to provide a power that will earn hits on it's own. Instead the focus is on The Knight having to engage in a 'double chase' to acquire easy injuries. The 16 second chase time of The Assassin would allow for a considerable window in which The Knight and The Assassin must split up and pinch the survivor. In cases where The Assassin can be passed easily, this is very often due to bugs in the design. The most infamous is that if a survivor touches a vault location, the guard will follow to touch that location before continuing their pursuit of the survivor. It goes without saying but a rework concept assumes that there aren't any bugs. With that said, BHVR have shown that they're unwilling or unable to fix the many bugs that plague this characters design. This can make it difficult to discuss these ideas when we simply run on the assumptions of 'It should work properly.'. The purpose of mimicking an 'M1' cooldown after The Assassin strikes a survivor is to prevent the 'double hit' gameplay we currently see. I think these scenarios are silly for a number of reasons and so consciously added a post-attack cooldown in order to prevent this. Do you think that the cooldown could be reduced in order to alleviate this issue or that a new system would be needed?
With The Jailor, the limited uses is certainly potentially painful. I had created the limit in order to prevent the spamming of his ability on a single generator. With a search radius expansion of 8m/s 'Patrolling' an generator that a survivor is currently working on would guarantee the chase. As such a Knight would be incentivised to make use of tracking perks to know when a chase would be guaranteed. With that said, someone else had suggested that a number of other 'Patrols' should be required before the first generator becomes 'Patrollable' again. Do you think this would help with the restrictions of his power?
With the cooldowns, do you think a reduction in their duration would help to improve the power overall? If so, what numbers would you set for the cooldowns?
Whilst this killer would certainly have a limited chase potential in a number of scenarios, such as the one you describe, the ability to easily injure isn't terrible by itself. Similar to The Legion, running a chase perk can dramatically improve the power overall. Whilst I understand that this concept would keep The Knight with a limited chase potential, I don't think he would be powerless. Any number of chase perks could be used in tandem with some of his add-ons in order to improve his chase potential greatly.
The idea of The Parry wouldn't necessarily make The Carnifex useless. With the Parry, you would be locked into a breaking animation. This way a Knight would only want to Parry pallets that he intends on breaking regardless of circumstance. The Carnifex would be better, however, at breaking pallets that have been pre-dropped or that are less safe. In this way both aspects of the power deal with pallets but both are better at dealing with different types of pallets. I'm not entirely sure that whether or not Hubris would activate on a Parry. This was something I had thought about but decided not to include. Do you think that it should or not?
@DBDBalanceBeyond I'll do the same as you, starting with your first point.
The issue with the Carnifex is not that breaking pallet is bad, it's rather that if a third of your power is breaking pallets or gens, it has to be good. I think that at least the pallet should insta-break, and with little summoning time. I think that Knight's worst maps are indoors one, especially because of the bug preventing you from summoning a guard if an obstacle is nearby, which MIGHT be an issue when walls are everywhere (currently you spend more time trying to find a spot to summon the Carnifex than breaking the pallet manually...) I think that in indoor maps where line of sight is easily broken, the power can be really weak, especially as indoor maps tend to spawn god pallets. In this case, you need to be almost in front of the pallet, summon during 3 seconds and wait for the Carnifex to break the pallet to go through, you better break the pallet manually to still have your power right after... Same for Generators. I'll start by clarifying a point : I was saying that current Carnifex is counterproductive because breaking a gen doesn't apply Regression perks. This version is clearly not counterproductive, however I still think that this is not really helpful, and moreover nothing justify such a long cooldown. What I would suggest is that there would be no cooldown for breaking a gen (allowing you to prevent Survivors doing gen in your face) and only a 1 second delay during which the Carnifex fraise from the ground, alerting the Survivor or what's happening. Then we could have still 1 or 2 seconds of reduced movement speed. This would ensure a fast use of your Power making it feels less clunky, but would still allow Survivors to make some distance.
For the Assassin, I have seen that you tried to prevent double tapping, but maybe it could be simply like a second where the Knight can't interact with Survivors ? Just like Huntress or Clown after throwing their respective items. This would prevent double tapping while still rewarding Knight to get some effect out of his M2. Then I was wondering about chase itself. Would there still be a flag? If yes, I think that my suggestion should apply there too, to allow more counterplays for the Survivor, the thing the most hated about Knight is that in some situation you can't do anything. I was suggesting that the Knight no longer see the Flag but the Survivor did, and it spawn in a random location instead of where the guard starts the chase.
I think that this could be enough to fix the chase problem and allow for the Assassin to down Survivors. If you think not, maybe it should be something like Injuring -> Deep Wound -> Down, but by Nemesis experience, 3 health state is really weak...
For the Jailor, if the problem is 3gen I think that allowing 2 uses per gen would still be far from enhancing this playstyle, don't you think?
Finally, I think that cooldown should be inviduad to each guard, and maybe extend it to 20 seconds to make it more fair ?
I love your content so much you need more subssss!!!!!!!!!!
13:30 😂
at least knight isn't as annoying to deal with as Artist
What TF planet are you living on where people would rather go against artist than knight, I don't think anyone even hates going against artists she's balanced
@@BeefyZawg compared to artist, whenever knight places down a guard, you have enough time to avoid it and go to another loop without being chased by one of his guards, compared to artist, the moment she places down a dire crow you can't do much other than having to accept being cornered by a crow and a killer or you have to endure getting hit by an m1.
you mostly have time to avoid knight due to the time it takes for the guards to be active compared to artist
@@ADepressedWooper not true knight automatically just sets a guard down and gets a hit artist you can loop around her crows knight is beyond annoying and takes no skill lets AI do all the work
@@BeefyZawg loop around her crows? the moment you are in the crows line of sight it's a hit when you are 8 meters close.
sure knight might take less skill, i agree with you on that, but you have enough time to go to a different loop or vault while he is in his guard summoning stance while his guards take time to summon until they get their max detection range
@@ADepressedWooper so move from the crow or hide behind a wall so u don't get injured
Nah I would actually love to see these changes in the game especially the parry mechanic that would be sick especially on a god pallet
As someone who just got camped and tunneled out by a Knight today, this video is godsent.
honestly the most gigabrain move i have ever done on knight was in rpd in the evidence locker room. I had the assassin ready, survivor dropped the pallet, their only exit on that side I could get to faster. Made the assassin break the pallet, the survivor realized too late that they can't vault it when the guard is breaking it. They got cornered and downed. Needless to say though, i am not planning to touch knight again.
THe knight is totaly fine how it is, he just need a QOL update and is 100% good, so stfu with your bullshit
Chill out its a concept
you are insufferable lmao, current knight is boring
Relax buddy it's dbd, the fact that ur actually getting angry just goes to show that u don't got a life
@@BeefyZawg If you like a game that means you have no life? Dude what issues do you have?
@@bluesnake8735 no if you are getting angry at a game, but this isn't even a game it's a concept. If you are actually offended you don't got a life buddy knight isn't balanced he's boring AF and broken