Unleashing the $10 Tech Revolution: Milk-V Duo S Rocks the Linux World!
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- Опубліковано 25 вер 2024
- Dive into the world of affordable tech with our latest video, where we explore the incredibly budget-friendly Milk-V Duo S - a board that challenges the very notion of 'you get what you pay for.' For less than the price of your favorite fancy coffee, this $10 marvel not only runs Linux but comes packed with features that defy its price tag. From its unique Sophgo SG2000 SoC with dual RISC-V cores and an ARM Cortex-A53 to its optional WiFi 6 capabilities, this board is here to shake up the microcomputer market. Whether you're a seasoned tech enthusiast or just curious about the possibilities of inexpensive computing, join us as we unbox, dissect, and test the limits of the Milk-V Duo S. Are we on the brink of a computing revolution? Let's find out together!
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Just a FYI ARM processors are also RISC based. The main arguments for RISC-V over ARM is RISC-V's open source license.
Yes, I know. That's why in video I say "check out history of ARM and RISC" etc. The main difference is RISC-V is an open-source, whereas ARM is a proprietary
@@TechnicallyUnsure Must have missed that... :|
Also hipster hype, which I’m down for.
x86 is also technically a RISC architecture...
@@r0galik No, x86 is what used to be called "CISC" for Complex Instruction Set Computing" and is contrasted with RISC architectures. The instruction set has become very expanded indeed today.
For anyone wondering about how the NPU performance of the Milk V compares: The Milk V does 0,5 TOPS INT8. An nvidia 2080 ti does 228 TOPS INT8. The Google Coral micro does 4.0 TOPS. The OrangePi 5 has 6 TOPS.
How does it compare to RP2040/rpi pico that has two ARM cores? It can easily be overclocked 2x. Another interesting comparison would be to rpi 2/3/4.
@@fredrikbergquist5734 Irrelevant. That wouldn't be apples to oranges, that would be whales to helicopters.
The luckfox NPUs are the same as the Milk-V ones(.5-1 TOPS with the current crop of tiny Chinese RISC-V devices). If you only have 256 MB of memory, you don't need 228 TOPS(1 pass on a neural network takes memory bandwidth to feed the core which processes. The amount of work to apply the bandwidth and processing power to increases with the size of the model). And you definitely don't care about RPi 2/3/4 which run everything on a CPU core. You also don't care about a coral, because it's a peripheral for older/incapable machines, not a part of a gumstick SBC.
@@Grimmwoldds isn’t comparing Nvidia to MilkV like comparing Volkswagon to Ferrari? There must be processors that are closer to MilkV.
@@fredrikbergquist5734 Yes, there are quite a few(why I singled out the luckfox using ARM rockchips in the 64-256 MB RAM range). These NPUs are not a separate chip. They are a section of the CPU die. They provide just enough neural net processing power to do vision/categorization. So much like your cel phone(which do things like camera stabilization and noise filtering), these little gumsticks can inherently process video their camera produces through small neural nets to say "I see a person" or "this is a banana". Doesn't matter if they had 6 TOPS. They aren't going to be running anything that needs 6 TOPS. They don't have enough memory to do so, and you're going it wrong if you think llama 13B @ 16 bpw needs to run on a SBC the size of a stick of gum that's likely to end up in a hobbyist project with a screen, some buttons, and maybe a tiny GPIO board(sensor, audio board, etc) of some sort and some external ports.
So in closing, the NPU is largely irrelevant except that it has one and it's sufficient for the system it's a part of. There is no comparison, it's not useful when evaluation is pass/fail.
the question though, is it sufficient to do something useful?
I'm a fan of the Milk-V series, and I'm very hopeful that now that this board is hitting the market, there'll be a ton of updates in a short amount of time.
Things are getting better for RISC V. In a few years there should be a RISC type desktop pc that can run linux and handle video and photography.
Exactly and that's what I want to see! Hopefully soon.
That exists already
@@TheD3adlysin proof? 2 hours later: The proof has not been provided. The type of computer is not here yet. It would run Linux and Android, have 32GB of RAM and 8GB of VRAM and the CPU would clock at 4Ghz. It would need 2 slots for NvMe SSD storage and a 320GB ssd sata boot drive.
Love the competence and enthusiasm!
Be good for porting code I guess. Still trying for RISCV only solutions. Over the decades I've sent ARM some ridiculous checks because only their compiler optimizes...uh...optimization...and you can't get to some levels with a vendor's part/IP without the vendor's tools (so gcc, et al, only gets you so far, before you hit a what we call these days a "paywall").
This is a super powerful stitch monster that integrates: arm, risc-v, 8051, tpu
There are debian images now, with the latest one it even runs X11 forwarding and windows applications via box64 and wine
it used to be normal for gpio to be hard to use on such boards(sbc), mostly depends on the target audience, for example in the past pine64 mostly speciffically targeted advanced users/developers, so it was quite normal early on to get things surrounding the gpio like what you got, also have had to read all the way through the soc's datasheet to find numbers and then figure out how they where laid out on the board and how to acces them from within the os.
Great video! I still want to try one of the Milk-V duo boards. But not because the price; there have been $10 Linux computers for many years. Take the Raspberry Pi Zero 1, for example, which costs around 10 bucks now and was even 5 bucks a few years ago. But just because I'm curious. 😁
Pi Zero was never really $5. That wasn't a real price, it was a money-losing price. They would only let you buy one at a time, and probably add shipping to that. Want to buy 1000 of them? Sorry, you can't. Want to buy 1000 Milk-V Duo? Yes, please! And you'll probably get a discount. It's a real price. Pi Zero 2, on the other hand, appears to be a real price, and with quad A53 cores has a lot more processing power.
I managed to boot from the eMMC! It is super fast!
i got the one without eMMC and i still don't understand why i did that. ;-)
I'm looking for a uC or the smallest/cheapest SBC capable of run node-red and mqtt. That's it, that's all I need. Now I use Raspberry with a lot of esp32, but the esp32 sometimes fall short, and replacing them by Raspberrys is somewhat expensive. This Milk-V may be the perfect in beetwen solution.
This would be perfect for something like Alpine Linux running a couple Dockers.
podman instead of docker is better, because it is FOSS, specially podman desktop companion vs portainer CE
@@mitcoes Good points. I just haven't tried to move to podman yet. Nothing is broke, so no reason to fix it at the moment.
@@jasont80 I did because docker was once not available on Fedora 38 when it was released. Recently I'm only getting some errors running multiple docker-compose files at once, but these errors do not seem critical. I guess advantage is that you don't need root, disadvantage that it has some weird euids/ugids on files so you can't access them directly. So new useful command is podman unshare and podman export/import which basically turn volumes into tars and vice versa.
The largest missed opportunity on these milkv boards is none of them support poe. I know you can buybadapters but it would be nice to just plug it into the ethernet and it has power. I have another model with a camera and it works very well
100% agree!
FYI the PoE HAT's for the Duo S are arriving this week!
And the Luckfox Pico Ultra W has a PoE HAT option too - works well 😊
I think we all are a bit tired of these claims of cheap devboards that end up costing $50 and out of supply.
I hear you, but this one seems to be $9.99 and I'm not sure about shipping costs, I paid the premium for shipping as I wanted to get my hands on it ASAP, but just FYI, I bought it from here arace.tech/products/milkv-duo-s
I bought a few of the other model they had 6 months ago and if you buy directly from milkv they are very cheap. I spent about 60$ for 5 boards. It's nice they now have a wifi module
@@newmonengineering How do you program them, is it with Arduino IDE or MS VS? Or do you run Linux and do it from a console?
@@fredrikbergquist5734 these milk V boards run RTOS or Linux on the board. This means that you can SSH into the board and run any linux command. I have successfully run Python scripts on the version I have without issue. You can blink the LED with Python. But more importantly, the ones I have I paid $3 more for the camera attachment. So I can use Python to stream the camera over the network. It is basically a cheap IP camera running Python.
@@fredrikbergquist5734 Also the DUO board supports pinmux so you can use the pins on it, I have not tried the new board in this video yet
Would love to see a follow-up once the GPIO issues are sorted. Keep us posted!
This little board is mighty! 💪 Picked up two because why not?
Great video. Thanks for sharing.
Isn't it self-evident for SBCs to run Linux? But it' good that seemingly cheap SBCs are back, nice find! :) The switch feature is crazy. Of course it wold be even better to be able to use both at once ;) The downside is that they now all have too little RAM for many purposes ... there have been cheap SBCs with much bigger RAM years, ago ..
stated powerusage is 5v 1A powersuply max, however couldn't find real world powerusage, in your video the measuring device was blurry almost constantly, one time it wasn't and showed 5v 0.1A 0W, so I wonder what it actually draws under low and heavy load, might be interesting for people to host their own sites like in the old days, since it is cheap and with the very low power usage there is little running cost to it, and a small size as well.
I would be surprised by one watt. Mine is with wifi, emmc and sd card, power consumption seems always between 0.18 and 0.25A. To host website on it, maybe you can somehow use python, but think about it the same way as Linux was likely looking in very early days: there's no distro. There's no compiler. All you have is kernel, busybox, lightweight ssh(d) called dropbear, to my surprise there's GDB, then e2fstools, fdisk, alsactl, ntpd, dnsmasq, dhcpcd, curl, wget and python with numpy and few libraries. And good old sysV init. You have to somehow crosscompile the rest.
@@pavelperina7629 are those currents at 5V?
if so then you are bellow 1w at idle which is very impresive indeed. what kind of board is it?
I know people who use devices like ESP devices for very low power web servers if they just want to run a website or such on it they are way less powerfull since they often only have 1 or 2 cores and they are typically also clocked much lower but they can be made to run at very low power usage, and in those cases they eitthe program the site directly in arduino like code(add the html in that or add it on a microsd and make some code to handle it). but in some cases people also do it somewhat similar to what you reffer to as in putting a bare(and stripped) kernel on it, with a few extra things and then running it like that.
what kind of hardware are you running/reachting that on currently?
Your terminal recording was too high we couldnt see u typing but... great great video !
As a reality check, this "$10" device (512MB, 8GB emmc) is €30.90 shipped to my country. I am unsure whether import taxes are extra - another 20%.
For less than that I can buy a pi zero 2w, delivered in a couple of days and fully documented.
So true ... I confirm your check (Germany)
You are right, it's not "there" yet, but hopefully soon we will have some real competitive boards with RISC-V
Dell Wyse 3040 thin client Atom is 2GB Ram, 8GB EMMC on ebay in large numbers for 20 euros shipped. Maybe you have to supply a 5v PSU. Worth considering if you need x86. Runs ubuntu server with CasaOS really well.
@@nikthefix8918 Thanks for the tip, I'm definitely going to check it out!
@@TechnicallyUnsure There are similarly priced offerings from HP with more RAM and even expandable storage. But I think the Thin Client ranges from both manufacturers are largely discontinued so it's a case of grab them while you can - which implies that it's not sustainable but there's so much ex lease gear out there it'll probably be a niche market for a long time. Easier to get than a Pi4 and with better performance in my experience. They're all fanless and have TDP of somewhere around 15W on the outside.
Just snagged one! Can't wait to play around with it.
Yes risk-V for the masses... the future looks great
Well it's just recommended to not switch from the ARM to the RISC-V core after the install of Linux. You will certainly won't get a bootable system. The Kernel and all system packages where compiled for one or the other architecture.
16:22 No we cant see it.
Lol, cheaper than my lunch and probably smarter too. 🍔💻
Is this the version that has the new floating point libraries added in silicon?? That's quite important!
The main 1 GHz CPU has not only a double precision floating point hardware unit, but also vector unit with 32 128 bit vector registers.
Computing is getting exciting again :D
It always has been. You just need to find the stuff you like. But, point taken. Stay away from the monopolistic greedy whole solution providers with no morals.
@@gddeen1 true
I love long videos.. I rather have more info than not enough :)
I got Rust running on this board. Very interesting.
I have one of those.
Why not provide access to all cores? Yes, there is complexity, but workload profiling would be cool.
One will have more component's on it than the other. Who knows.
How sustainable is this at such a low price? Seems almost too good to be true!
It probably costs 1/4 of the selling price price to manufacture it.
I got two of these. Wish they had hdmi out. Haha
wish I could see what you were typing.
Not enough RAM and only one usable USB port. Not sure what niche they’re trying to hit with these.
Can it run kali
Google: The minimum RAM requirement for Kali Linux is 2 GB. But to run Kali efficiently and perform various tasks simultaneously, having 4 GB or more RAM is always recommended.
Fyi this is like 45 bucks outside of the us
So, are you actually claiming that the GPIO on the board DOESN'T WORK, or just that it doesn't work with nice friendly pre-canned software packages? I mean, have you really dug deep in the hardware documentation and tried to work it out from ground zero?
Yep, there was (at the time of recording the video) absolutely no documentation whatsoever related to the gpio. As I said in the video, I didn't have the time to brute force pins one by one or try other methods. Even the vendor doesn't seem to take care of that after months (since the github release date for first image), so if vendor haven't figured it out yet, I don't think I can in a timely manner
Looks fun to play with, but practically pointless. Does the switch simply select the boot core and the others are available via software after boot? Otherwise just a play toy - a waste of silicon. So many of these little boards are shipped with software support "not there yet" and it never arrives.
Thanks for the video! This board looks very interesting, I think I will buy one soon. I was just wondering if anyone knows what type of RAM is using, is it DDR3, DDR4? I can't find it anywhere, it's a very small RAM but from my experience and at least for my use case what makes the difference is the RAM speed, I can live with 512MB but not with a slow RAM. For instance the Raspberry Pi Zero 2W has DDR2 RAM and it is too slow for my applications.
Nevermind, I just found it on their datasheet (which is still in chinese), it's a DDR3 DRAM. So I guess it's not as good as the Orange Pi Zero 2W but not as bad as the Raspberry Pi Zero 2W.
Would be nice if you included links where the can be obtained. I seriously doubt they are $10. That is like saying a Raspberry Pi is $35 and I have yet to find one that cheap. Even if you do you still have to buy a power supply, sd card, video cable, maybe a keyboard and mouse.
Sure, I bought it from here, with no options selected/added, it's $9.99 arace.tech/products/milkv-duo-s
@@TechnicallyUnsure Great, thanks. They really are $9.99. I might have get one.
Shipping to USA is US$12, which makes the base version $22, and the eMMC one $30.
the eemmc is rockett scince !! i canot find mine
Will it run puppy linux?
ae-race? Erase?
Where did you get this for $10?
arace.tech/products/milkv-duo-s
Can we install Java (JRE) on this board?
Sure
want one, but not carried in amazon (where I am)...
looks like a lot of work, to do absolutely nothing. Without being able to control the GPIO under program control the device has no value. You're better off buying that 10 dollar cup of coffee. I'm going to pass. I'm not going to wait and hope the manufacturer can get it together so I can buy and use their product in a project. I'll buy a raspberry pi pico that's ready to go, or an esp32.
The microcontroller graveyard is full of boards just like this. The problems you're going through are a huge red flag. Maybe the company needs to hire a competent team leader and some real engineers.
I totally hear you, its been around 16 days since I recorded this video and I just checked, still no GPIO, unfortunately... Not sure when they'll figure it out and fix it
That section also seemed like giving a huge pass to something that’s often a huge problem. Rarely boards get any additional documentation or firmware updates after the release.
You know arm is risc too
Yes, I know. That's why in video I say "check out history of ARM and RISC" etc. The main difference is RISC-V is an open-source, whereas ARM is a proprietary
Curious, have you tried using pinmux or wiringx to use the pins? I did on the earlier version of this board without any issues
Yes, earlier versions have official support and documentation, not this particular board (yet)
Bro…. Zoom in.
Sorry about that, tried to address that issue in the videos I made after this one
that knife was cool but kids might get nightmares
so basicaly it barely manages to swich a LED on and off , a NE555 can does that too.
Linux is too monstrous for such devices. RTOS is just fine for gpio usages. There should be some OS in between those two. I heard of OpenHarmony
Such a cheap device for mvp development and more support for Linux, it’s worth the bloat if there even is any bloat. There’s enough stripped versions of Linux like Firecracker to be quick and lite.
dumbest thing I've ever heard. why not throw an x86 core as well?
$ and power
Fyi this is like 45 bucks outside of the us