it sounds crazy to say but after how many years of established bike mechanic techniques this shop is still pushing the limits and still working out new ways of solving problems. you would think its all been done and figured out by now but clearly not in the slightest.
As a bike mechanic I love watching your channel. Personally I would be very apprehensive about tackling a repair like this. Kudos to you for taking it on
Take your time, do your research, have the right tools, practise. Same as anything. To be honest, most shops would just glue this back in with off the shelf epoxy and call it done. It would probably function. The method in the video has probably produced a better result than the original though. Every day a schools day right?
@Mapdec absolutely. I had a customer bring me a Dolan frame last week that he wanted stripping down to send back as he was concerned the carbon frame was cracked. I stripped everything off except the pressfit BB as it wouldn't budge and I didn't want to invalidate his warranty by using too much force and causing damage to the shell. I'm assuming they had used a retaining compound on it. He's hoping they will replace the frame anyway.
I (it's my bike) had a ~500 mile round trip to Mapdec to get this done. I, too, wish I had such a shop rather closer to home! Paul was amazing. Maybe I need to move house...?
That what I was wondering about too... would any decent bike shop be knowlegdeable enough to do this? I had bike shops complaining about the complicated cable routing through integrated handlebars (which in the end I did myself and it was actually easy).
@@848evo4 Quite possibly. But it did not occur to me that a 9yr old bike might still be under warranty. Also I wonder whether the bike shop that did the original (not very good) drive-side repair (and did so without asking me first!), might have voided the warranty by so doing.
@@848evo4 Yes , Giant's local distributor would need to honour the client with a replacement frame to transfer the components onto . This repair is good but may not last long term as this video was only published recently .Time will tell .
Good job. Have performed various Carbon Frame repair jobs and done properly,as you have done here..with careful precision and sometimes the help of websites regarding materials and application will be as good as new..ESPECIALLY in our throw away world where most folk do not have endless amounts of cash to simply buy another bike when things go wrong. Love your content. Thanks.
Great job. I don't know of many LBS that would fix something like this. Or _could_ . I think it's a mark of a great mechanic to (almost) never say no to a job, even if the labor would maybe lose you some money. But you gain a customer for life.
Thank you. There are jobs we get occasionally where I don’t have the skill and don’t want to pursue gaining it. Recent one was a Scott CR1 with a threaded insert that was just spinning in the frame and spewing white rust everywhere. That’s a job for carbon repair shop.
That looked like a well thought out and researched repair and your explanation was simple to understand. I do worry about my PF30 BB set up on one of my bikes where the bearing shells appear to be a bonded alloy insert like on this bike you featured. So far I have replaced the BB 3 times without any issues. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with us 👍
Thank you. It would be very strange for PF30 to have bonded inserts. The big advantage of that design is that it gives so much space for a bearing carrier.
Ah, that Voodoo glue is amazing. Got myself out of a potentially very expensive carbon steerer tube problem with that and an extra long expanding bung.
It's really awesome having someone producing a UA-cam channel experimenting with and showing their work with some of the higher end type repairs that I enjoy exploring and doing. THANK YOU! Two thoughts: 1) As thin a layer of epoxy as used in slip-fit inert repairs, I've never been particularly concerned about expansion of the epoxy and have not found any measurable decreased circumference contributable to it. Have you found epoxy expansion to contribute to insert shrinkiage? 2) I was surprised to see you insert the fitting into the frame having shown to only put epoxy onto the frame surface instead of both the frame surface and the insert. I have always put epoxy on both surfaces to reduce the likelihood of any voides even though it does increase clean-up on the outside of the repair after the fact. 3) Excellent trick using separate inner and outter drifts for the bearing you don't have a specific drift for! 4) Great Loctite use and research tips! Again, surprised not to see you put the retaining compount on both inner and outer surfaces to minimize post-installation gaps in the "adheasive". Thanks again for an enjoyable and informative channel.
Thanks. I am not a glue expert and I just take my advice from the experts, in this case a chat with easy composites. There needs to be a gap for the material to exist and do it’s job, hence sanding to a slip fit. If I left it as an interference fit, you just push all the glue out and are left with a weaker bond. I feel it also gives some slight wiggle room for alignment too. A step missing in the video was a quick spread of the glue with a zip tie. I don’t think adding to both surfaces would help. It wasn’t in the instructions to do so. I know it is for some epoxy glues. I think the expansion comes more from adding a layer of material than the actual epoxy expanding, I’m not sure the chemical properties etc. After gluing though there will be a tighter fit to contend with. Same for retaining compound. It’s a very light viscosity
@@Mapdec Your point of making sure the joint has slip room instead of being a press fit is well taken! I was taught years ago that whether you are greasing a slip joint (or press fit for that matter) or gluing a slip joint, you always want to treat both surfaces to maximize the likelihood of complete joint coverage. Over the years, I have experimented with glued slipped joints that I have later taken appart, and there is no doubt that treating both surfaces can significantly reduce gaps in the glue. Imperfetions in both sides can hold onto a bit of glue that otherwise would become small gaps. I suspect there is a good chance that if you had treated both the frame and the insert in the above video, the gaps you observed would be noticably reduced if not eliminated. Heck, it may be that if both sides of the joint had been glued during the manufacturing there would be a more complete bond and the breakage would not have occured in the first place. Again, thanks for the stimilating content!
Really nicely done, good video :) Since you ask about improvements; the drum and fingersnapping intro/outro is so incredibly loud compared to the rest of the video -- I'd love to see that audio level differential reduced ;)
Great repair job 👌🏼, I with there where more stores with this level of craftsmanship. Regarding the 24mm axle cranks with power meter there are some reliable options in the market, the rotor 24mm + power2max Spyder for example also there are some options from sigeyi and xcadey coming from China, that's without mentioning single side options from 4iiii or stages..
When I got that power meter (it's my bike) in 2015/16 (I forget) there were far fewer options, but, more to the point, I was _given_ the power meter. So the somewhat more frequent need to replace bearings pales into insignificance compared to an Infocrank for free.
Because it’s metal on metal (steal & alu) and they are not inert. An inert material would be plastic or carbon. They don’t oxidise. Great question. Hope that helps
Any reasons not to use acetone or brake cleaner rather than IPA for surface prep? My guess would be that strong solvents may not play nice with carbon resin? Cheers and lovely job as usual
Acetone would normally remove glues, but it would probably evaporate in time. Disc brake cleaners come in lots of flavours. Some are just pressurised IPA others have all sorts in. Also you can by IPA buy the litre super cheap.
If anyone watching this knows a workshop doing similar level of really thorough and careful, diligent repair work in North London/Herts, I'd love to know please!
@@jbkltc4469 umm. Maybe. I’m not sure how much better that would make anything. This repair is already better than the bike ever was fresh from production. There is a risk of glue overspill ruining fresh bearings. I don’t think the customer would be happy paying for a sacrificial set. The spindle just has a little anodising worn off. Not enough to misshape. If it were misshapen it would still have play. I guess it is always nice to be perfect, but there has to be a cost to benefit ratio to consider.
You mentioned using ipa alcohol, like pretty much all instructional videos. Is there any reason not to use brake cleaner? To my knowledge it also removes all grease and grime. Interested to hear your thoughts on this..
@@Mapdec I read that some car brake cleaners have an anti rust additive that can actually make bike brakes squeel. That said I only have postive experiences with the Action (budget store chain in the Netherlands) brake cleaner, it doesn’t work any less than Motip or that ridiculously overpriced bike branded stuff. Costs around 2 euros for a 700 ml can.
It’s a pain that the owner didn’t want. Find the original receipt, send it away etc. Also the fix is that a Giant store just ‘epoxy it back it’ without any thought given to alignment or bore size.
Like Hambini or not, at least he is doing some good engineering. 99% percent of the bike industry is too stupid or just not willing to do a bare minimum of engineering…
Good or bad Hambiniis setting a standard and spotlighting the poor quality control in the bike industry. 're the power meter is not better to go for the Garmin pedal type or is that a pricier option? Also subject to what pedal system you have
"...Powermeter with a 24mm axle that actually works." Well... there are quite a lot. Stages, 4iiii, Sigeyi. I think the better point is that the customer actually got sold a 30mm axle in a BB86 and that this should definitly work without a hitch.
@@Mapdec 4iii, Stages, even Giant has an in-house powermeter for Ultegra R8000. All pretty solid I think, although there are some reports out their off broken off power pods and damaged seals. I never had any problems with my own, although I still can’t get my head around, why Shimano is unable to offer a functioning solution for their cranks. Their current powermeter lineup is a joke...
@@MS-bw7yt the Shimano ones are a total joke. I have only come across a couple of giant ones. Compared to my reference fleet of Tacx neo they are slow to respond to surges, however the average numbers seem to work out.
also - said it once, going to again - there are 3-bolt direct mount powermeters, there are 24mm axle (be it GXP, Megaexo or even Shimano) 3-bolt direct mount cranksets. All it takes is some pen-pineapple-apple-pen magic
it sounds crazy to say but after how many years of established bike mechanic techniques this shop is still pushing the limits and still working out new ways of solving problems. you would think its all been done and figured out by now but clearly not in the slightest.
As a bike mechanic I love watching your channel. Personally I would be very apprehensive about tackling a repair like this. Kudos to you for taking it on
Take your time, do your research, have the right tools, practise. Same as anything. To be honest, most shops would just glue this back in with off the shelf epoxy and call it done. It would probably function. The method in the video has probably produced a better result than the original though. Every day a schools day right?
@Mapdec absolutely. I had a customer bring me a Dolan frame last week that he wanted stripping down to send back as he was concerned the carbon frame was cracked. I stripped everything off except the pressfit BB as it wouldn't budge and I didn't want to invalidate his warranty by using too much force and causing damage to the shell. I'm assuming they had used a retaining compound on it. He's hoping they will replace the frame anyway.
@@thetravellingwhiteleys9594 good call. In my experience it will bonded in with excess paint
Most bike shops in Canada would never do this kind of repair, amazing job and very well done, wish we had bike shops like yours here...
I (it's my bike) had a ~500 mile round trip to Mapdec to get this done. I, too, wish I had such a shop rather closer to home! Paul was amazing. Maybe I need to move house...?
That what I was wondering about too... would any decent bike shop be knowlegdeable enough to do this? I had bike shops complaining about the complicated cable routing through integrated handlebars (which in the end I did myself and it was actually easy).
@@timhall7771 wouldn't Giant just replace the frame? My TCR has a lifetime warranty on frame and fork, and that looks like a warranty claim to me.
@@848evo4 Quite possibly. But it did not occur to me that a 9yr old bike might still be under warranty. Also I wonder whether the bike shop that did the original (not very good) drive-side repair (and did so without asking me first!), might have voided the warranty by so doing.
@@848evo4 Yes , Giant's local distributor would need to honour the client with a replacement frame to transfer the components onto . This repair is good but may not last long term as this video was only published recently .Time will tell .
Good job. Have performed various Carbon Frame repair jobs and done properly,as you have done here..with careful precision and sometimes the help of websites regarding materials and application will be as good as new..ESPECIALLY in our throw away world where most folk do not have endless amounts of cash to simply buy another bike when things go wrong. Love your content. Thanks.
Nice one Felix
One giant problem, one giant fix.
Great fix👍
Thank you.
One very lucky giant owner!!
Great job. I don't know of many LBS that would fix something like this. Or _could_ . I think it's a mark of a great mechanic to (almost) never say no to a job, even if the labor would maybe lose you some money. But you gain a customer for life.
Thank you. There are jobs we get occasionally where I don’t have the skill and don’t want to pursue gaining it. Recent one was a Scott CR1 with a threaded insert that was just spinning in the frame and spewing white rust everywhere. That’s a job for carbon repair shop.
Another great video. So wish I had someone in USA near me with such attention to detail and competence.
Thank you.
That looked like a well thought out and researched repair and your explanation was simple to understand. I do worry about my PF30 BB set up on one of my bikes where the bearing shells appear to be a bonded alloy insert like on this bike you featured. So far I have replaced the BB 3 times without any issues.
Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with us 👍
Thank you. It would be very strange for PF30 to have bonded inserts. The big advantage of that design is that it gives so much space for a bearing carrier.
Nice to see great job Paul, thorough as always. Customer ought to be delighted 👍 Chapeau
Customer (me!) is very delighted. Paul is an absolute pleasure to deal with!
Ah, that Voodoo glue is amazing. Got myself out of a potentially very expensive carbon steerer tube problem with that and an extra long expanding bung.
Always upvote light reaming
Genuinely impressed. Love it! Most would have written that frame off.
Glad you liked it!
It's really awesome having someone producing a UA-cam channel experimenting with and showing their work with some of the higher end type repairs that I enjoy exploring and doing. THANK YOU! Two thoughts: 1) As thin a layer of epoxy as used in slip-fit inert repairs, I've never been particularly concerned about expansion of the epoxy and have not found any measurable decreased circumference contributable to it. Have you found epoxy expansion to contribute to insert shrinkiage? 2) I was surprised to see you insert the fitting into the frame having shown to only put epoxy onto the frame surface instead of both the frame surface and the insert. I have always put epoxy on both surfaces to reduce the likelihood of any voides even though it does increase clean-up on the outside of the repair after the fact. 3) Excellent trick using separate inner and outter drifts for the bearing you don't have a specific drift for! 4) Great Loctite use and research tips! Again, surprised not to see you put the retaining compount on both inner and outer surfaces to minimize post-installation gaps in the "adheasive". Thanks again for an enjoyable and informative channel.
Thanks. I am not a glue expert and I just take my advice from the experts, in this case a chat with easy composites. There needs to be a gap for the material to exist and do it’s job, hence sanding to a slip fit. If I left it as an interference fit, you just push all the glue out and are left with a weaker bond. I feel it also gives some slight wiggle room for alignment too. A step missing in the video was a quick spread of the glue with a zip tie. I don’t think adding to both surfaces would help. It wasn’t in the instructions to do so. I know it is for some epoxy glues. I think the expansion comes more from adding a layer of material than the actual epoxy expanding, I’m not sure the chemical properties etc. After gluing though there will be a tighter fit to contend with. Same for retaining compound. It’s a very light viscosity
@@Mapdec Your point of making sure the joint has slip room instead of being a press fit is well taken! I was taught years ago that whether you are greasing a slip joint (or press fit for that matter) or gluing a slip joint, you always want to treat both surfaces to maximize the likelihood of complete joint coverage. Over the years, I have experimented with glued slipped joints that I have later taken appart, and there is no doubt that treating both surfaces can significantly reduce gaps in the glue. Imperfetions in both sides can hold onto a bit of glue that otherwise would become small gaps. I suspect there is a good chance that if you had treated both the frame and the insert in the above video, the gaps you observed would be noticably reduced if not eliminated. Heck, it may be that if both sides of the joint had been glued during the manufacturing there would be a more complete bond and the breakage would not have occured in the first place. Again, thanks for the stimilating content!
Top job, I'm always wary of carbon frames and press fit, but good to learn something anyway and good tip about the loctite info!
Brilliant work 👌
Thank you! Cheers!
Really nicely done, good video :)
Since you ask about improvements; the drum and fingersnapping intro/outro is so incredibly loud compared to the rest of the video -- I'd love to see that audio level differential reduced ;)
Master class!
Great repair job 👌🏼, I with there where more stores with this level of craftsmanship.
Regarding the 24mm axle cranks with power meter there are some reliable options in the market, the rotor 24mm + power2max Spyder for example also there are some options from sigeyi and xcadey coming from China, that's without mentioning single side options from 4iiii or stages..
When I got that power meter (it's my bike) in 2015/16 (I forget) there were far fewer options, but, more to the point, I was _given_ the power meter. So the somewhat more frequent need to replace bearings pales into insignificance compared to an Infocrank for free.
Can you tell me why you didn't use activator with the loctite 641? Im not saying you should but i thought it helped when bondinf two inert surfaces
Because it’s metal on metal (steal & alu) and they are not inert. An inert material would be plastic or carbon. They don’t oxidise. Great question. Hope that helps
Love it ❤
Any reasons not to use acetone or brake cleaner rather than IPA for surface prep? My guess would be that strong solvents may not play nice with carbon resin? Cheers and lovely job as usual
Acetone would normally remove glues, but it would probably evaporate in time. Disc brake cleaners come in lots of flavours. Some are just pressurised IPA others have all sorts in. Also you can by IPA buy the litre super cheap.
How many hours labour did you charge for that? Even the tools you used must be quite rare to generate an roi.
90 mins. Tools are fairly standard except the micrometers maybe.
If anyone watching this knows a workshop doing similar level of really thorough and careful, diligent repair work in North London/Herts, I'd love to know please!
Athlete Service. Tell them I sent you.
@@Hambini Do I just enter the shop and scream "HELLU HAMBINI FANS"?
@@oftankoftan "I've turned up for a F**ing haircut, where's the hairdresser" usually works too.
Magene, Stages, Sigeyi, and 4iii have a solid power meters that work for 24mm axles and they're all pretty cheap.
Loctite make a whole range of industraly approve bonding agents . Job specific .. not a ubiquitous " epoxy" title ..
Correct 👍
no warranty?
Is it ok to use a crankset with witness marks on the spindle?
Depends if witness marks have become scars or misshapen.
i don't think shot bearings and a worn out spindle are the best choice when it comes to aligning the bearing cup for glueing them in
What would you use instead?
@@Mapdec known good components (at least a new spindle) or you could even get a proper shaft made for this
@@jbkltc4469 umm. Maybe. I’m not sure how much better that would make anything. This repair is already better than the bike ever was fresh from production. There is a risk of glue overspill ruining fresh bearings. I don’t think the customer would be happy paying for a sacrificial set. The spindle just has a little anodising worn off. Not enough to misshape. If it were misshapen it would still have play. I guess it is always nice to be perfect, but there has to be a cost to benefit ratio to consider.
You mentioned using ipa alcohol, like pretty much all instructional videos. Is there any reason not to use brake cleaner? To my knowledge it also removes all grease and grime. Interested to hear your thoughts on this..
It’s a lot more expensive than IPA. Also. Some cleaners have other stuff in.
@@Mapdec I read that some car brake cleaners have an anti rust additive that can actually make bike brakes squeel. That said I only have postive experiences with the Action (budget store chain in the Netherlands) brake cleaner, it doesn’t work any less than Motip or that ridiculously overpriced bike branded stuff. Costs around 2 euros for a 700 ml can.
IPA is mega cheap
Im considering moving to where ever the hell your at
Kendal. Gateway to the Lake District 🚵♀️
@@Mapdec 👍have bikes, will travel
Just North of Whitesiles :-)
Why wouldn’t you warranty this frame with Giant? And did you void the warranty with your fix?
It’s a pain that the owner didn’t want. Find the original receipt, send it away etc. Also the fix is that a Giant store just ‘epoxy it back it’ without any thought given to alignment or bore size.
PF bottom brackets need to dissappear .
No, they only need to be manufactured within tolerances. Rgr
This is why I hate press fit
this fanboy cannot make a single video without mentioning Hambi
Like Hambini or not, at least he is doing some good engineering. 99% percent of the bike industry is too stupid or just not willing to do a bare minimum of engineering…
Good or bad Hambiniis setting a standard and spotlighting the poor quality control in the bike industry. 're the power meter is not better to go for the Garmin pedal type or is that a pricier option? Also subject to what pedal system you have
@@markrushton1516 100% right
"...Powermeter with a 24mm axle that actually works." Well... there are quite a lot. Stages, 4iiii, Sigeyi.
I think the better point is that the customer actually got sold a 30mm axle in a BB86 and that this should definitly work without a hitch.
4iiii is a fair shout. They last forever.
@@Mapdec 4iii, Stages, even Giant has an in-house powermeter for Ultegra R8000. All pretty solid I think, although there are some reports out their off broken off power pods and damaged seals. I never had any problems with my own, although I still can’t get my head around, why Shimano is unable to offer a functioning solution for their cranks. Their current powermeter lineup is a joke...
@@MS-bw7yt the Shimano ones are a total joke. I have only come across a couple of giant ones. Compared to my reference fleet of Tacx neo they are slow to respond to surges, however the average numbers seem to work out.
also - said it once, going to again - there are 3-bolt direct mount powermeters, there are 24mm axle (be it GXP, Megaexo or even Shimano) 3-bolt direct mount cranksets. All it takes is some pen-pineapple-apple-pen magic
Why would you not warranty this frame with Giant? And did you just void the warranty doing that repair?