Harley Chain Drive Conversion - BELT VS CHAIN - Do YOU Really Need It? Kevin Baxter - Baxters Garage
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- Опубліковано 11 чер 2024
- Have you ever asked the question.. should I put a chain drive conversion on my Harley-Davidson? if you have this is the video for you. You may be surprised to learn that every Performance Harley engine does not need a chain drive conversion.
To order parts email sales@baxtersgarage.com - Авто та транспорт
I've got 3 years of bracket racing on a 5 year old drive belt. TC88 doing about 100hp/108tq. VHB on a dragstrip is very unforgiving to a drive train. There's a couple of things you can do at the launch to avoid shock load. I've seen guys pushing 150/150 on belt drives with no issues.
Chain drives are a pain to keep up that's why I like a belt drive, I am not drag racing just enjoying the ride.
"That little Italian tailor hidden away in a back alley in downtown New York" - man that's perfect.
100% correct. My Dad always said, “some people can tear up a Sherman Tank”. So true.
I bought a custom bike with a chain. Would rather have a belt.
It's very simple if you're in the stunt riding doing burnouts stuff like that you need to have a chain drive. I broke a belt 200 mi from home, I tell you right now it'll ruin your weekend.
That’s what I was thinking too.
100% like you say it’s simple stunts and burnouts
I disagree. I have 160,000 miles on my 2004, original belt. It's a built hotrod. Burnout before every new tire. Wheelies. Drags. Belt is still kicking. I replace rusty chains all the time in the shop, some metric belts, but almost never Harley belts from the 90s on
the biggest reason i remember about chain drive was running a wider wheel/tire with the chain
Glad your busy. I'm good with real world comment from a guy with real world knowledge. I don't need all the production. Thanks
Kevin, thanks for being there for us Tom the Frame man
100% correct! Its the rider. Broke 3 belts doing burnouts or hard digs then switched to chain Can ride wheelies without break them somehow tho. That was at 136hp m8. Now she's pushing 152hp. Absolutely necessary now the way i ride!
It's the same when people put race parts on their bikes but never actually race them ;)
I just can't justify in my own mind spending that kind of money and not actually need, or ever use it. But ya know, my buddy did "this" so I gotta be able to beat that 🤣
I did a chain drive conversion (myself) on my bike, mostly for aesthetic purposes but also for a little bump in acceleration while sacrificing a bit of top speed, and haven't been disappointed with my conversion so far.
Properly maintained, a good o-ring chain will last a long time. You will know when it needs replacing if you pay attention. If you are beating it and doing holeshots, it will stretch unevenly and have tight spots.
Belts last when properly maintained and adjusted. They are very strong and will not stretch and get tight spots. But they will break with no warning.
The latest belts use carbon fiber instead of fiberglass of aramid strands.
Great video, gives me even more to consider. Especially when I thought the cam was supposed to be considered a "first mod," when upgrading your motor. You just made my head explode again. Lol
Years ago, there was a computer program from Walter's Engineering (I think) we used a lot. It simulated all sorts of things for engine building like common cams, bore and stroke, compression ratios, flowed heads, ect. The database it used was based on existing proven builds so although it wasn't exact, of course, it gave you an idea of what you could expect. Various horsepower numbers at any RPM and things like that. It was kinda cool to look at a power graph and swap in a cam and see how if affected power and at what RPMs. Cool program limited to EVO's and earlier though. But the really cool thing was the gearing part. You could plug in different numbers for all the sprockets and tire sizes, the trans ratios you wanted to use, and see the RPMs at different speeds and how changing things would make a difference. Was really fun to play with and customers loved getting a printout of different combos. As to your discussion of chain versus belt, I think you're spot on. I run chains on both my '79 Shoveltrike and my 2000 EVO Frankentrike. I want the extra strength because of the higher weight of the trikes, the availability of sprockets in the ratios I want, as well as sprockets being much cheaper. Horsepower isn't a concern any more, I'm old and fat and ride slow now. But the big factor for me, is the ease of replacing a chain versus a belt. To do a chain I just break the old chain, attach the new to the old and feed it through. Adjust and done. To do a belt, after disassembling the primary, I have to then pull off the body, remove the rear housing from the frame. Take off the wheels and brakes and pull the axles and then split the housing. When it goes back together there is a bunch of aligning that must be done. 20 minutes against 10 - 12 hours.
Thanks for taking time out of your busy day for the videos. I learn something every time.
I have 2 belt drive bikes and 1 chain. I have never had an issue with either belt drive except normal wear! (40,000 miles) but I can tell when my chain drive bike needs maintenance cause of sound! Once that chain gets a little lose, you can hear and feel it. All drive systems though need maintenance and that's one thing most people aren't very good with! 😁✌️👍🇺🇲
My personal experience on a pretty much stock 1200 Sportster: I used to have to go down a parking garage ramp to park my bike. After converting to chain I freewheeled noticeably faster down the ramp (i.e less friction). I used that bike to commute to work every day (70KM / 44mls). I broke 2 belts within a couple of years and I felt it had to do with salted roads + low temps in winter (frequently below 0C / 32F). The second belt was put on and adjusted by the dealer as he didn't trust my skills 🙂. Never looked back after chain conversion.
No matter what it is, I love your videos Kevin because you always give the truth straight up, to the point, and from a point of great experience.
Yes i need the belt to chain conversion…
You may not need to convert but it's easier to feed the chain through oppose to disassembling the primary. I would think
Stock belt drive on a stock 98 flhp. It does what it's supposed to, I don't see a reason to start changing things and end up with more headaches than riding time. Ain't broke, ain't fixing it.
I really do love your videos and watch every one. I have stopped starting and running my bike after your video with moisture. I have not experienced any of that here in the south but I do take your knowledge and experience as being a true honest first class Harley mechanic. Keep up the excellent work and thank you from Louisiana.
… and an engineer by schooling as well as a machinist 😀
If it's about performance, chain drive is supposed to be more efficient getting power to the rear wheel.
"It's up to me!" That's kinda what my friend Mikel told me. He said it all depends on how far and how long you roll back on that throttle.
I'd never go back to chain drive . But being a 65 year old man , I would like to chop one of these old iron heads I have collecting dust into a chopper just for the old times . Not a speed freak these days .
A busy shop is a good shop
Well I did a belt to chain final drive on my 1989 Sportster back in 2012, mainly because the belt was badly worn. I had been looking at prices for a new one, but was still riding the bike, one day I rode out of my driveway and had to stop at the stop sign, when I let the clutch out the bike didn't go anywhere. Push it back home,took it a part, found out that the front pulley was shot. Look for a new one and/or a used one. They are none to be found.
I changed it because I had no other way to go. The biggest plus to me is, I can change the ratio to many configuration. Right now it is setup for short runs around town, it gets around 44-46 MPG. If I set it up for the Hiway it'll get around 48-52 MPG. Chain require more maintenance than belts but will last longer, if not abuse or neglected. I'm very happy with chain and the fact that I can change out the old chain to a new one without pulling any covers off.
Another great video👍. A point not discussed is that since a belt is run much tighter than a chain there is far less lash in the driveline, this makes a bike much nicer to ride when you are constantly on and off the throttle, like on a twisty road. Also FWIW a belt change is MUCH easier on a Sportster as the primary doesn't have to come off.
Kevin aka G.O.A.T
40 Years ago I preferred the FLH with an enclosed chain drive. I did not trust the new belt drive. Today, give me the belt every time. Good bye chain.
Enclosed chain made changing rear tires a nightmare !
I have an 83FLHTC I picked up as a basket case. Over the course of a few years I resurrected it . One of the first things I did was convert it to belt drive. I have a 73 FL , 82 FXR ( the wife’s) an 87 FXRS SP and the 83FLHTC.
The 82 FXR and the 73 FLH are chain, the 87 FXR and 83 FLHTC are belt.
I use chain tensioners on the chain bikes and check chains before every ride.
The belts get a Quick Look over and gtg. The touring bike is sweet with the belt ( and a 107 S&S from a big Dog recammed) the 87 FXR has a 96” S&S and gets rode pretty hard, no issue with a belt in many years and miles.
The 82 FXR is a hotrodded 80”er at about 84” now, the chain needs replaced about every other year ( along with sprockets) because we live in Fl and the sand isn’t chain friendly, regardless what lube we use. Same with the 73, about 2 years on chain and sprockets.
The 87 is on its 2nd belt since 87 and the bagger is still on its first since 2015 and MANY thousand highway miles 2up.
I live in both worlds and would take a belt any day except for a dedicated drag bike maybe.
The belts just work, they’ve been proven to go 100k miles many times, but must be set up correctly, like a chain.
I do carry a spare belt on road trips, never needed it.
It was the same argument back in the day about points and elect ign, you can fix points on the side of the road but not elec ign… look how long we’ve had both belts AND elect ign now. How about carbs and EFI? Yeah, same arguments.
If you blow a tire you’re on the side of the road too. Or of a cam bearing fails bla bla bla.
Belts work, imaginary scenarios are endless. Choose what you like and run it, I know I like the low maintenance, low noise and vibe of the belt and have no second thoughts. IF it breaks, thems the breaks, takes about 4 hrs to change it.
About the same as a tire on the side of the road between towing and getting a tire changed.
Having owned both, I prefer the belt.
Thank you for the info. I always look forward to your videos.
I swapped to chain on my 07 Dyna after the belt stripped 7 years ago, probably from being too tight,my fault, and I was anal about the adjustment. I went 25/55 116 link endless chain,the slightly lower gearing makes the bike much nicer to ride and no problems in 25,000 miles and very little wear,I would not change back to a belt, bike is pretty much stock including exhaust.
great show Kevin.
Educational and entertaining, good job man.....🍻 cheers
Fantastic video
Well it ain't like no one has ever broken a chain on a motorcycle. Kevin I'm with you let's talk about gearing and how it effects ignition timing throttle body size on several different models from a let's say dyna to and ultra and a softail in-between.
I have been busy with the remodel of a kitchen and dinning room. Trying to do a little catching up. I have been thinking about this.
Personally, I would want a chain for hard riding.
Belts are smoother and quieter than a chain. But if you want to ride a normal way, the belt is the better option I think.
But I wouldn't be looking to build a ride a monster... I'm about to hit the 64 mile marker. Stock is fine.
Belt Vs Chain.
Belt any day.
Unless you're pushing BIG numbers like 200+ absolutely! Nearly zero maintenance, and smooth.
Good video, thanks.
I am glad you cleared this up. I just bought an 07 Dyna with a 120R. It's a real beast of a bike but the belt has held up for years, and is still in great shape despite 140TQ at the tire. The fact is that it is difficult to physically hold on to the bike when an itchy throttle hand twists too hard!
Another great video.
Another reason for chain drive , which I'm thinking about doing, is living on dirt roads . I've gone through two sets of pullups and belts because of the sand paper effect of dust from the dirt or gravel road.
Good topic Kevin. I have 1994 FLSTN solid mounted stock Evo 5 speed. I converted to a slightly higher geared good quality O ring chain drive. Two reasons really. More relaxed cruising as was always a bit short geared. And also no need to worry about a stone in the belt at roadworks and so on. Even with running white wall tires the chain is very clean. A great conversion for me. One of those things you do and then wonder why you hadn't done it years earlier? All the best. Rich. New Zealand.
Kevin, please share your thoughts on a primary belt conversion. I have a 09 fat bob and I installed a 2", non ankle biter belt drive and it has been great. NO clunk going into 1st and the Barnett roller bearing clutch is awesome. The cool factor is a plus. Keep up the good work...
You have a hand full on the bench😁😁😁, money in the pocket when you finish👍👍🤠
Twenty-plus years ago I wanted a chain because of a gear ratio change. Twenty-plus years ago I broke a belt because my right hand suffered from the quick twisties.
Don’t worry about the fancy crap.
Thanks for the video
Thanks! I am new to your channel and love it so far. I was wondering if you have a video on bore scoring? What causes it? And if it will it cause failure especially after a new build?
Thank you and take care
broke two belts on my sportster...but I was taking it to the dragstrip every Friday (run what you brung) for three years before the first one broke. Second one broke because I didn't adjust it right when I replaced the first one. 😝😝
93,000 miles on my '09 Sportster with the original drive belt...... and clutch cable as well.
Hey Kevin, I went thru your old stomping grounds today on my way to Monrore Georgia. It's a shame about GA. It really is a beautiful place. I feel the same about Pennsylvania. Taxes, cost of living, crime. It's not the place I moved to in the 80s.😊
You didn't mention the reason I switched from a belt to a chain. My engine is completely stock except for the exhaust. But I hate belts. For me, adjusting a belt and getting the rear wheel aligned properly is a real pain in the ass. Even the temperature has to be taken into account. No matter how you adjust the belt, if the temperature changes very much, so will the belt tension. I also just don't like the idea of having tension on a belt. A properly adjusted chain will still be loose on the bottom run. Then there is the matter of just how perfect the alignment needs to be. A chain has a small amount of sideways flex. And it will tolerate a TINY amount of misalignment between the front and rear sprockets without significant wear. But that is not the case with a belt. Because a toothed belt has no sideways flex, and because of its width, the alignment has to be absolutely perfect, or it will quickly wear down the edges of the belt and pulleys. That happened to me more than once, even though I had the proper alignment tool and belt tension gauge. When I switched to a chain, I kept the same final drive ratio. People think that a belt is so much cleaner, longer lasting, and requires less adjusting than a chain. And that is sort of true. But modern O ring and X ring chains last a very long time, and do not require constant adjustments. They do have to be lubed and adjusted more often than a perfectly aligned belt system, but doing so also only takes a fraction of the time it does to try and properly align and adjust a belt system.
Your looking into too much and over thinking belts can last forever. But suit ya self.
Is the chain noisy compared to a belt?
@@Jim_Berry no. Can’t hear the chain or belt unless there’s far to much slack in the chain. Wind noise, exhaust, valve train, induction noise make far more.
I've switched a few bikes over to chain drive & the first thing I always notice is the bike rolls easier with the chain .so my guess is there is a slight performance gain
actually chains take away horsepower my 165 hp m8 has a chain with a 55 tooth
rear sprocket 24 front which cost me some hp on the dyno.
A friend went through two belts in a week on his Sportster. Bent frame or swingarm so pulled were out of alignment. He put a chain on it.
How important is belt tension? Important enough that Harley built a gauged sight window into the lower belt guard so that people would actually check it. lol
So in short words if you like to play yeah u need it. Looks like I'll be in the market for one asap then lol😊
I prefer a chain final, and a belt primary,simply for ease of repair.
Yeah, just be honest. Most people wanna chain because they want to look so just do it to justify it.
I couldn't upgrade to a hp motor without whacking that throttle.
I agree, thats what its all about with a new build, we want more power and more torque. We want to feel that pull when we twist!
Now you have me wondering
I will say that I've seen belts fail/break from dry rot out here in the desert southwest.
After 2 broken harley belts on 2 different bikes with standard engines both miles from home once in a very dangerous time and place I will buy only motorcycles with chain or driveshaft.
Well I just can't edit so I just shoot start stop that's it... But you have good information mine is just like oops I broke this
Does taking long distance trips matter to changing to a chain.
10,000 HP.....How much $$$ Kevin? I may need two.
You, sir, are a master of your trade so well put. People drive me crazy they think biggest cam I can get and then they wonder why they can’t use fifth anymore.🤦🏽♂️
just curious - is it really necessary to balance a brand new s&s crankshaft when building a new engine?
Kevin, any live videos coming up?
Would it be wise to upgrade your compensator as well?, curious..
That very complicated mathematical formula may be applied to the whole Power Train - from bearings, chains, belts, pullies, cogs, tyres, and even the oils.
my 128 wanted 200 more rpm in 3rd to run through town at 30-35mph. 3rd would lug. 2nd could get me a ticket too easy and doing 3000 rpm through a 2 into 1 with no cat through town is just rude. I went 25/55.
Chain or belt
I have a receiver hitch tow mount that I can tow my 78 flh bobber with the rear wheel on the ground.
I pull the master link and remove the chain.
That way, the only turning as I go down the road is my rear wheel.
The chain is relatively easy to remove and reinstall.
Can't do the same with a belt nearly as easy.
I also have a 92 Electra Glide Ultra Classic and a 91 Springer Softtail I would like to be able to tow the same way, without worrying about hitting a bump and accidentally having my bike going into gear.
I would be traveling from Virginia to Missouri 976 miles one way.
This way, I'm not stuck dealing with bad weather on the way or when I arrive at my location, and I can still enjoy traveling the Ozarks (where Im originally from) on my bike.
Before anyone says get a trailer, the vehicle I drive wouldn't be practical for long-distance hauling 4L60 transmissions will destroy themselves pulling a trailer in O.D.
(3rd gear not in overdrive)
600 lb bike one wheel on the ground, I don't feel any difference in the shifting and how it drives.
Call so remember I own a shop in Colorado called thumpers performance I changed I've been taught will cost you five horsepower an o-ring chain will cost you 10 horsepower and a belt will handle over a hundred horsepower with proper adjustment and keep air in your tires
Chain drive forever...... Broke 2 belts with stones between the pulleys.
You need a chain conversion if you have a belt. If you have a chain - you need a belt conversion.
I ride a 2011 SofTail. I'm a commute rider. I don't do speed or tricks. I've gone through three belts in 60K miles. The last one that broke showed no signs of wear but it was rotted on the inside. I live in Eash Asia. There were no belts in country, I had to order from the states and wait 7 to 10 days. This time instead of a belt I spent $50 more and got a chain kit. My intention is I can keep and eye on it and I will know when it needs to be replaced. I did the work myself. I have the special tools from doing another job. It took a couple of hours.
Chain drive is much more efficient than a belt or driveshaft.More gearing variability, and gone are the days of 5,000 mile chain and sprocket life Modern O ring chains go 5-6 thousand before first adjustment.Now Harley ignored the Kush drive hub for over 50 years which was the m😅st important chain drive advancement in the 1950's.
Not really. Efficiency is quite similar. Little better the chain with low power, little better the belt with more power.
I have a ashfelt (tarmac) drive that eats alloy sprockets & belts. Chain drive for me
The word you want is "asphalt". Just FYI.
Morning Kevin I have a question, my transmission sensor keeps having metallic flakes on it, I have a 2000 ultra classic with 35000 miles,great motorcycle, don’t do any abuse at all, I drained the transmission fluid and there was nothing on the drain plug, what do you think.
Put a magnetic drain plug as well if it doesn't have one.
I’d do it just for ease of replacement…
How much for hopped up twin cam head refurbished?
Different subject, how come sodium filled exhaust valves don't seem to be a thing for Harley Davidson engines?
I've got a shovel with a belt primary, and I hate it. Is it just me or do dry clutches suck? First bike I've ever owned with a dry clutch. Just not smooth like the wet
I’ve sent two service requests via email with no response.
2002 E.Glide,Asking to be on waiting list for the bike.Chris from Ca.Thanks.
I'm confused. Is this the mini bike chann?
👍👍 for the algorithm
Question : we have a 2010 103 trike and myself is 245 and wife 195 pounds / we like to ride in the mountains / the trike is a dog. I’m not looking for speed but like to be able to twists the throttle when needed and be able to Cruise up and down the road ??? So do you think a 111 S/S engine or can my be modified for what we need . Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated because my 07 Street Glide with 96 tow us better . Thanks 😊
You have an 1100-pound trike, 440 pounds of rider and passenger (for a total of 1540 pounds, or slightly over 3/4 of a ton), an engine that makes about 80 horsepower, and you like to run up and down hills at altitude.
Your problems may not be adequately resolved by an engine that's 3 cubic inches larger. That's not judgment, that's acknowledgement of engine specs and physics.
Just re gear it.
Almost impossible to replace a snapped belt on a Softail by the roadside
apart from having zero options when a belt final drive brakes, the faff to replace it ; Nope!
Howdy. Off topic question. Do cam twin cam chains really need tensioners. They are so short.
No I don't need a chain, except for locking it up as if that would make a difference....
🤔😃👍
Are there better more durable belts to use?
NO! Harsh environments destroy belts. What is worse is the wear is not just the belt but the hubs, and once they get sand damage belts will break constantly. Harley loves charging 200 dollars an hour to fix them though.
Hey Baxter. Can I come work for you? I live not to far from you...
I like the shaft drive from the Honda VTX, 1800 it’s better than the chain or the belt. You never had to mess with it.
What is it with all you shaft drive people! All of your no chain adjustment, nearly perfect reliability, no alignment issues, no noise, no constant lubrication and cleaning, safety, hygiene and longevity... why do you do it to yourselves. Isn't half the joy of motorcycling going to the shop, buying two sprockets and a chain and fitting it, all when you can least afford it?
Isn't half the joy of motorcycling spending a good 45 minutes on your hands and knees cleaning off the stickiest lubricants known to man from the rear wheel, guard, swingarm
and back of the engine? Don't you know what you're missing out on?
My next bike will be a shafty. End of story.
I will tell one thing a honda vtx1800 it’s better smoother and outlast any Harley Davidson on the market and a plus a Harley Davison can not go through hell like a Honda vtx1800 or a vtx 1300 hell with out that one dude I for got his name but his last name is Davison he’s the save Harley Davidson I’m going out of business back in the 80’s he’s the one told Harley Davidson owners what to do on the Softail like the fat boys Harley Davidson
Do you not have any employees anymore?
A chain needs to be lubricated and after a few thousand miles it becomes a big mess. 😢
All high performance bikes are chain drive!