*Your Harley Engine Builder Was an IDIOT* Or Were They? - Harley Piston Ring Alignment Kevin Baxter
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- So your Harley Davidson needs an engine built a second time and your new Harley engine builder finds the piston ring gaps are lined up. Is your previous builder an idiot or is your new builder not educated on piston rings? Could their be another reason you are burning oil or are down on power? Watch this video to find out. Engine Tech and hard facts with Baxter.
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/ @kevinbaxter
Pro Twin Performance and Baxter's Garage
Nashville, TN
678-226-9651
Tell the story….please we all love a motorcycle story 🤞😎
I just went through this very exact situation but the shop that repaired my engine found that both cylinders were severely deformed and had to bore them 10 tho and get a set of pistons made. Always enjoy learning from your vast wealth of knowledge.
I've seen manuals show 120 degree spacing for the gaps, not Harley specific manuals but other manufacturers.
Not only are your stories informative, they are also extremely entertaining! And I don't even OWN a Harley......(yet).
Good info of course. I would add that, what you said about the initial few miles/several minutes of run time is crucial to how the engine will perform and the longevity of it. In spite of this I still hear about people "breaking it in for a thousand miles" before getting it tuned.
I plateau hone all cylinders...this greatly reduces break in time and promotes the best possible ring seal as soon as possible also reducing contamination. I will often lap rings as well. Without plateau honing, break in can take quite a bit longer...but 1000 miles of "really take it easy and baby it" doesn't promote ring seal. We agree and are saying the same thing. Thanks!
I appreciate the info and respect your ability. But a couple years ago i picked up a 2000 jeep tj with a siezed 4 ltr. 4 cyl. Motor. I got another old used motor and stripped both down to nuts and bolts. I built one engine out of the best looking parts from the two. No torque specs or nothing other than a Milwaukee driver. That engine ran great and is still on the road. What a fluke. LoL
All this knowledge and experience for a few $ a month. Wow !!! Thanks Kevin
You are very welcome! Thank you so much for your ongoing support!!!
@kevin Do you often see ring gaps lined up or is it a rarity? did it really cause issues?
Like your videos, you are a very talented person. Thank you for your honesty
In this video, you are covering the mechanical break in of piston rings. What about the chemical break in of the piston rings with a mineral based (non-synthetic) break in oil, high in ZDDP, low in detergent and no friction modifiers?
You will see this in an upcoming video...specifically about oils. Stay tuned...
The big bore kit I put on my Buell XB specifically said use break in oil, which of course I did.
So if they don't rotate you basically have a stuck ring .
We need that 5 minute story on why you don’t want to know who worked on the bike last
Thanks for the info
Kevin,
I'm not as think as you dumb I am! 😂
So do the rings stay that way in a usually idling engine, or can the gaps seperate once a new owner runs the beans out of it?
they often find themselves lined up in ongoing idling engines....which is one reason long idling is not recommended for many types. Also...engines designed to run at constant speeds and low rpm have different types of rings...gapless, different profiles, etc that can still facilitate rotation for even wear.
If you badmouth other shops, your own mistakes will look much bigger. Mistakes happen.
I remember that piece of cardboard
Whos doing the job is the only that knows what theyre doing, everyone else is the idiot!😂
Hey Kevin👍
Come on tell the story
I can't get over the fact you don't a couple of million subscribers. You put out such outstanding content. I only wish you hadn't moved farther away from me when you did. I had hoped to bring my bike to you. Nashville is now at bit to far. Keep up the great work.
This is the greatest explanation of this engine assembly concept I’ve ever heard. I knew that you offset them for break in and I knew they were supposed to float in the groove between the piston and cylinder wall, but beyond that it had never been so thoroughly explained thank you! 👍🏼
as a contractor i do the same. i never talk bad about another contractor
Awesome info as usual. I have a request.... could you do a video on how you would break in a brand new Harley right off the showroom floor? What would you do in the first 50 miles? What would you do in the next miles up to 500? That would be super helpful for not only myself, but many, many others.
Well you got me curious tell the story..
Yeah it's always easy to bad-mouth the guy before... I bought a old shovelhead 1980 about a couple months ago and I have found some weirdest stuff.. get the owner said Jeff Florida did the engine while I talked to Jeff and Jeff did not do the motor so yeah it's always a b******* from a seller
That explanation of ring wear was really interesting. I did not realize. Thanks for taking the time; and yes, please tell the story.
Of course we wanna hear the story. :)
Exactly, when I was in sales I never badmouthed the competitor, it’s sleazy and unprofessional.
Professor, Thank you for the technical explanation, I truly enjoyed this video. I wish I lived closer to Nashville, I would bring my bike to you.
I’m curious, please tell the story!
Speaking of rings, do you use low tension rings on your engine builds or do you higher tension and thicker rings? If you use thicker/higher tension rings, what is the difference in heat generation and overall engine temps?
Thank you for your knowledge and opinion in good common sense manner! You are Appreciated for your comments and knowledge! You check all the Boxes.
A fan keeps me alive in this ole hot trailer! I'm used to the noise of a fan.
When you apply the rings to a piston, aren't the ring tips pretty much touching? I don't mean they're jammed together, but just barely touching, if it's the right ring for the piston and the cylinder.
So oil consumption would be barely there, not something you'd notice if everything's right from the start.
I would think, that since 'as you say,' the rings turn on their own, they 'float,' in the piston gaps, oil consumption is minimal, unless there's something more going on to cause that.
And as they might turn to align the ring gaps, they would also continue to float around and misalign them as well?
This situation could potentially apply to all piston engines, bikes or automobiles or even diesel engines.
Tanks Kevin for the tips. As always, you're a singular pea all alone in the big pod of 'normal,' mechanics, dealerships, and shade tree DIYs.
Idf there was one singular thing I noticed, owning an HD, has all sorts waiting to fleece your pockets for dollars!
The HD world seems pleagued, cursed maybe, with every sort of 'know it alls,' that will say or do whatever, for a few dollars more!
Your info was very well presented and I as an ex engine builder appreciate your education of the dynamics of ring functionality to both mechanics and aspiring mechanics. As a note if you ever wonder or question if rings rotate consider a two stroke bike engine with cylinder ports and why the piston rings must be pinned to avoid the gap aligning with a port. Cheers and thank you from sunny south africa
Please, tell the story.
I Love it when you tell the Story!!!😂😂 very informative info, Thanks for sharing your Knowledge!!!
You are a font of engine knowledge sir. If only I lived closer so that you could do my stage 2 but I'm in the UK .
Rings movie been building engines for 35 year never had a major engine problem, because it will not leave till I break it in 100 miles or in the engine stand ,but you can still have problems, there way to may green horns out there lol
Hi Kevin-for the DIY home mechanics it would be helpful on your cardboard chart to indicate what the numbers represent eg. top compression ring, 2nd compression ring, oil ring, oil expander ring, oil ring-also the sequence of installation of the rings-make it idiot proof. Furthermore, the HD manual for 2008 Softail seems to contradict your chart- eg. Front Cylinder; 1&5 (expander ring & top compression ring) @ 4 on the clock, 2 (bottom oil ring) @ 7 on the clock), 3 (top oil rail) @ 2 on the clock, 4 (2nd compression ring) @ 10 on the clock-this is the top view of the piston facing the front of the engine-maybe I have missed a trick on your inverted view.
Kevin, I appreciate your videos because they give us important information that we would not have normally. this particular video gives me two critical bits of information. 1 - The people that i am dealing with are dishonest and it is a strong sign that they, if a problem happens with a job that they had previously done on my bike, they will no doubt fabricate a reason for the problem that leaves them innocent of any blame, 2 - Either they are clueless as to why the rings got aligned or the figure that they can blow smoke up a ignorant customer that sets them up to cover themselves for future mistakes. Either way I would pack my stuff up and go elsewhere in hopes of finding a good, honest and experienced shop like yours. Thank you for who you are and what you do for the biker community!
For as much work as you do in the shop, and time that you spend, don't ya think the investment into some HVAC split units would be in order.? Ceiling fans are a good idea as well.. Happy employees makes for happy profits.. Just sayin, bro..
I heard a story many years ago that in the 1950's, Volkswagen R&D imbedded a small pellet of radioactive material into a piston ring so they could monitor the rotation using a gamma count rate meter. They determined that the average rotation of a piston ring in and air-cooled VW was 15 RPM. I have no idea if this story is true, but I wouldn't put it passed those whacky Germans to do something like that.
Maybe a raffle or Gofundme to get your entire shop some serious A/C ……
😆
Lower humidity, and more stable machining tolerances prior to assembly.
May not matter much, but in aviation, all engine parts have to be stored & assembled in a constant temperature environment.
Great video Kevin , lots of excellent info. Thanks for taking the time to share. In your opinion what is more reliable a twin cam or m8 engine for longevity ? Take care, Cheers
I have seen rings line up on the aircraft engines I work on. A short flight will usually get the compression numbers back up to spec. When it's a fresh overhaul it can be a little embarrassing but as you said, it happens!
Kevin I know you’re a busy man, but I value your opinion greatly. Thus said do you believe there is any advantage to having a external breather system on a twin cam ?
I like what you’re doing here. Kudos Sir
Superb knowledge
Thanks for teaching us this
As a professional you should strive to stick to the facts and avoid opinions. It keeps you looking professional and the customer will undoubtedly tell their opinion of the last guy to anyone who will listen. Besides the last idiot to have worked on it might just be the customer.
Twin cam rocker support treads upgrade. Is there better Inserts than what Harley installed?
I was through this with Mack Truck 40 years ago. They used to have a piece of paper like your cardboard in the box with the cylinder kit. I knew they rotated because I tore down lots of factory engines and they weren't matching the paper. I have to say though very few of them had the gaps aligned on teardown
All rings, no matter what engine type, rotate and do at some point line up, a faint scratch will keep rings lined up
Tommy from Florida Kevin your knowledge is priceless I'm a graduate of MMI 1990 didn't make a living in the Motorcycle industry made my income in lawn equipment repair never lost my passion for motorcycles so this knowledge about ring rotation with the cylinder fluctuation under torque is an eye opener I bought a 1987 Heritage in 2022 it was rideable got some time riding then it's age started showing its self well I parked it started my rebuild anyway thanks again for these videos cheers
If the rings wear into the crosshatch pattern to seal, then they spin, doesn't that start the process all over again?
Hey Kevin. Use this towards the fundraiser for the bikes
WOW Greg...Thank you SO MUCH sir. When the pittance comes thru from UA-cam, I will make sure to dedicate this amount to the fundraiser. The kiddos (and I) appreciate you sir!
Tell the story.
Thanks for the videos. I have learned a lot from them.
What is your recommended fresh motor start up heat cycle procedure?
Well put. Thank you. TELL the story.
Looking to learn - what is it about idling that makes the gaps line up.
Very informative. Thank you.
Tell the story please. Curious as to what happened.
Tell the story!
If cylinder has a even the tiniest of a score, end gaps will line up 🤷♂️. Oil consumption is usually caused by riders not knowing dipstick should read low on kickstand and they have too much oil in bike and risk hydro locking bike. I change my oil with bike upright and don't have a problem. I've had a friend bring his bike to the harley dealership and dipstick was full when on the kickstand 🤦🏻♂️ I had my bike done once at dealership and never again. Get a private motorcycle shop, they stay in business because they are good 🧐
My '02 Dyna reads 1/2 quart low on the stand and full upright
Can you expand on this "hydrolocking, overfilled idea"?
I've never heard of checking the engine oil on my twincam with bike vertical so I consulted my 2007 owner's manual again and it says the oil level should be at the full mark on the dipstick, when hot, on the jiffy stand. Has that changed?
My 07 road king classic has it stamped on the dip stick to check oil level while on the kickstand for both hot and cold checks. Not sure when they changed it or if it's always been that way for road kings. My first harley. All my metrics were oil level checks while straight up
@@staynless7 nope - you are doing the right thing.
Please tell us the story ……… we all love a good story.
I learned from my own experience, trailering my Bikes and riding only at rallies. You sit idle in traffic a lot and then you load the Bikes back in or on the trailer and travel home, idling in traffic and only putting about 10,000 miles on your bike in 10 years. Your engine is worn out 😳When I was younger. I rode my bike to the rallies and never had a problem with wearing out my engine before 60 or 70,000 miles. Live and learn,it keeps your shop really busy. Love your videos and I want your Roadrunner ❤😂😂😂😂😂😂
Tell the story, please. That's how we learn.
I guess I must be old, I knew that several years ago. I’ve been building engines for over fifty years. I guess the young guys aren’t taught this right?
Tell the story
With all respect I feel I must point out one fact and it doesn't have anything to do with what you do but rather it is the fact that you used a thumbnail from a movie that I am certain I am not alone saying this so I will put it like this it is my opinion that you should watch the movie "The Goonies" because even though I understand it was an actor that played the part but that carecture was not only a good man but he was a hero and a friend.
I insist that you take no disrespect from my opinion because it is just that my opinion and I also appreciate your videos and thank you for posting them sincerely.
Thank you for your candor and well thought out comment sir. I am compelled to reply and you may be surprised as to why....
I often hide easter eggs in my videos. It may be an item on a workbench, in the background, or my chosen words. These hidden gems are fun for me...to sit back and see who notices. Many are noticed and it makes me smile. You noticing Sloth in the thumbnail was exactly the easter egg for this video and largely the point of it. Goonies is one of my favorite movies. I have many....one other would be The Outsiders. To quote Robert Frost, "Nothing gold can stay".
But to quote the character Johnny Cade as he is passing (the author S.E. Hinton actually), "Stay gold Ponyboy".....powerful...but I digress.
Sloth had great character which was in direct contrast to his appearance. His appearance was metaphorical implying lack of intelligence and aggression. In other words...he isn't what he seemed. The image was used as analogy. In my piston ring example, a person has to choose their approach. One can assume another has bad intent or is ignorant...an idiot...and pass judgement on them for self benefit. Yet, in reality, that person passing judgement may not know any better. They simply don't know what they don't know...and another suffers the consequence of their own ignorance.
I guess in short...things aren't always what they seem. Over the years...near countless times I've been told of an engine disassembly and rings not lined up in their original orientation. Incorrectly, this condition has been blamed for other issues...and those lead to another short term rebuild. What they thought was a problem...wasn't. This is only one of many examples. Sometimes, folks just don't know. And of course, there are those that don't know what they don't know. A key of intelligence is knowing one doesn't know everything and they ask the question, Why.
If Sloth tore down an engine and saw rings all over the place...I'd be willing to bet he'd ask why. ;)
I want to hear the story as well.
Thanks for sharing, I wondered about the alignment on the rings movements
Story?
Ya, please tell the story. This is really great information. Thanks!
Thanks for info .😊
Please tell the story!!!
Tell the story please :)
Tell the story !!!!!!! Please
Tell the story
Please tell the story Kevin. Please tell as many stories as your shop time will allow!
Every shop who says another shop is an “idiot” are always proven to be worse/trash.
A shop that just does the job and gives a bill are the best.
I LOVE this comment. Simple and well said. Thank you sir. All the best.
Please get to the point
Tell the story please
The guy who built my engine works at the factory. I own two Harleys with 100% OEM engines. I have also owned many other brands of motorcycles. Never understood why someone would change or "build" a perfectly fine engine.
My original engine builder was "The Dragon Man" and yes.. He is an idiot. He basically built a grenade out of my 1970-1/2 shovelhead engine then blamed my break-in. When I had the engine rebuilt by an actual qualified mechanic I got a long list of everything that was wrong (and break-in wasn't on the list.)
Bloody legend 🫡🇦🇺
Please tell the story
Tell the story! Please!
I'm lmao, because I've heard those very words from mechanics, knowing very well that rings will rotate.
can i get an AMEN from the back row!!!??? LOL. Thanks brother.
@@KevinBaxter 🤣
Tell us the story
Tell The Story!
Hi Kevin-I would be interested to know why you never request historical information with respect to what work/maintenance/engine modifications/tuning etc has been done on the bike or engine.
Simply put...when I tear one down, what was done is obvious to me. And what was done before, be it right or wrong or indifferent to how I would have done it, is only one variable in the total equation. I simply analyze what I see then do what is best to reach my customers goals. I don't care who did it...as long as it was done proper. If it wasn't, I redo it. Simple as that. Great question.
Hi Kevin, I was going to ask for the story but your answer here not only answered that question but another one I'd consdered asking. TY.
Tell the story
Tell the story
tell the story
The Goonies
Tell it...
tell the story dagnabbit
Tell the story we love being enlightened
Do tell
Becky here - went from made in America to assembled in America….
Not true. 😂