Links to contributors: 1) Breakdown of Qi La La's fight on Fight Commentary Breakdowns: ua-cam.com/video/OVsJ5Cqy4iQ/v-deo.html 2) Marco's fight and channel: ua-cam.com/video/WmXzdc_ojjM/v-deo.html 3) Lion Martial Arts Academy: ua-cam.com/channels/KwgPhHDdPSdj9wQAaFk9KQ.html
Good video. But think about what Matt Thornton say about critical thinking, even though he pressured tested his Wing Chun, if you look at the Wing Chun competitions that were shown , the guys still looked like kick boxing. The point is practioneers claim there style is useful all by its self but yet resembles kick boxing or some type of bad grappling once its pressure tested . Again why train something that you claim your not doing but is forced to conform to it when it is fully resistant?? They say they are doing Wing Chun or Kung Fu but in full competition they still look like wild kick boxing. My point is if your going to look like kickboxing then why not just learn it and leave the Wing Chun and Kung Fu alone especiallywhen they don't look like it under pressure??? your looking like the same thing you say your not doing?? Critical thinking. These guys would never make it in the UFC ,it would be a bad beating for television. Why??? Because you can not use Wing Chun and Kung Fu all by its self ,you need functional kickboxing, clinch and ground to survive to keep some one off of you. Some one who is an amateur version of Amanda Nunes in the UFC would dump one of them Kung Fu practioneers on their head thats the truth. It would not be a good look for the martial arts. My advice train what you resemble in full resistance which is kickboxing, clinch and ground. Thats what Bruce lee talked about 45 years ago meaning stop being bound by limitations or styles.
Where’s a video of WC working in self defense? I’ve seen MANY where boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo etc work. Why only sport styles? WC is the worst for self defense. It doesn’t allow for FORWARD PRESSURE. When I sparred this Tennessee titans nfl lineman I can own him boxing. But in a real fight he’d come in throwing ala tank abbot in early ufc. When a stronger person attacks u (and that’s who do on the street) it’s nothing like sparring. It’s the antithesis of WC. Sure WC can work. I trained a ufc fighter that used it in sparring all the time against guys that suck. I use it when I spar my wife who’s a pro mma fighter but 120 and a girl. As a goof. But it sure as hell isn’t the best way
I'll never forget what my karate teacher used to tell me when I asked what are the techniques that work : "Everything works, provided that you train to make it work."
I have a slightly different view …. Every technique works, just not for you. That’s why a true master isn’t someone that imitates their teachers and perfects their chosen style, but instead becomes their own master of their own style
@Dan James yeh dude, I can't remember where I heard it but it stuck with me. My journey has lead me personally to find that martial arts training goes hand in hand with pragmatism.
@Dan James … go for it my friend. Martial Arts is a personal journey just like every fight is a personal fight. It will never be the same for any individual
This is what I've felt for a long time. It's not that martial arts are useless, it's that so many martial artists quite simply never train to actually fight. They don't spar, they don't ever do any training that would prepare them for an actual fight. It makes me appreciate how my Taekwondo instructor would teach us actual practical training along with our normal training. He was big into MMA and even encouraged us to go beyond just Taekwondo. He even taught us some grappling and ground fighting he learned doing MMA.
I really hope my next Taekwondo course'll teach me sparring and actual fighting alongside. Got to green belt in my previous course w/o sparring at all, which is pretty sad
Taekwondo makes a good base for different types kicking including kick in the mid air if some one caught your legs .But studying boxing alone will make you useless if you opponent uses long leg kicks alone .So first taekwondo lessons then going for kickboxing or muaythai then going for bjj makes you a great fighter
You can also improve your punching , dodging , footwork by practicing boxing .But you should go for boxing only after practicing leg kicking other wise you can't use it in a real fight
I remember sparring a guy in his 50s who did Wing Chun and actually sparred. I was at a pretty good level with my Taekwondo at that point, but I absolutely got destroyed by this dude, because the weakness of Taekwondo is that when you get close to your opponent, you have no idea what you're doing, and coincidentally, that's where Wing Chun thrives
true, i quit taekwondo because one i was getting bored of it and two i realized that taekwondo by it self wasnt a really good martial arts or a really good way to defend your self
@@ballislife9092 that's because only few instructors understand these principles. Thus they teach them wrong. I practiced wing chun when I was young with an instructor who liked sparring (he came from kickboxing I guess that is why) and I could use wing chun. Also, chain punching is misunderstood too. But it's another topic.
@@example6978 I did boxing, it is absolutely useless against anyone that knows how to throw a kick. Started TKD instead. Now, reflect on your bias and how it is down to the practitioner, not the style.
Great video, Rokas! Glad to be part of it!! Marco's videos have been shared with me too, so I will definitely feature him eventually too! I'll share this with Qi La La now!
@@BlinderUhrmacher also, were you the one to send me those fights? I get so many emails, so I sometimes get lost with all the emails. Thanks for understanding!
Your honesty never ceases to amaze me, Rokas! I'm yet to meet someone who really intends to get to the bottom of these discussions as you do. Hats off to you, man! Much respect!
I'm a wing chun student myself and I started out with karate when I was 5. I'm 29 now and all I really have to say about a lot of martial arts is that it all comes down to the person learning and then applying it to different situations. I believe practicing most legitimate martial arts creates a sound mind and is a great way to ultimately deescalate most situations. A lot of people practice martial arts and then find themselves freezing up if an altercation actually does occur. Having a sound mind and trying to deescalate situations in the first place is the best route to go. Ego is a big problem for a lot of people though. That and fear. I've been in a few fights... My first one, I was like "oh shit, I'm in a fight!" and the last 2 I was like, "well, I'm in a fight now, I'll do my very best to get out of this situation as quickly and effectively as I can". Big difference. People need to learn humiliation and quit ragging on other people's martial arts in general. It all mostly comes down to the individual themselves and a part of it is the art practiced. After all, a weapon isn't a part of an individual, it's an extension. In any martial art though, run from the knife always. Charge the gun.
@@manher4335 In my lineage we always train and spar using realistic scenarios such as using hook punches, headlocks, rear naked chokes, sporadic attacks from different angles and we do ground work etc. We actually do punch each other too. Hard. We focus on forearm bone conditioning as well to make our arms dense and hard a lot like how Muay Thai practitioners condition their shins. In a way it's one of the dirtiest fighting styles there is because of the big emphasis at lunging fingers (eye gouging), groin kicks and throat and diaphragm shots as well as a lot of elbow strikes. There are a few actual boxers in my class too and we have really good boxing programs in Louisville Ky also. After all, Muhammed Ali was from here... It's literally meant for street fighting though and not meant as a sport for the ring or a cage. It's all about ending shit as quick as possible however possible.
For my martial arts training i use the cobra kai mantras : fear does not exist in this dojo. - pain does not exist in this dojo. -defeat does not exist in this dojo. I know it sounds funny and it is a movie but having such a mindset is great thing to have, for any martial arts you practise🥋⛩️☯️🇯🇵🥊
@@dylan_krishna_777 Yeah for sure. I actually like how every martial art has its strengths and weaknesses. Probably not the very best reference but I like how in Cobra Kai, Johnny says to punch through the head like the guy you really wanna punch is standing behind this asshole. If it hits its devastating but if not you'll possibly wind up punching something you really don't want to like a brick wall or end up like Kreese punching through car windows lol.
Super glad you talked to Jerry. Also, the "Canadian Geometry" saying has roots in a statement made by one of the Machado brothers. He said that if an armlock is used by a Japanese jujutsu practitioner is different, varied, or the same as a Greek pancration armbar....and it works.....it's just grappling...and should be used by all grapplers in their system regardless of origin.... because it works. No matter what your system or style is, you have to adapt. Your outcome in conflict should matter more than your adherence to style
I know a BJJ black belt under Demian Maia. He got skeptical when a well-known koryu Jujutsu teacher said in a magazine that old-style Jujutsu locks are more destructive than those of BJJ. So my friend went to meet him, tried it out and agreed. He now trains Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu under him. So why was the armlock in question more destructive? Simply for the fact that it was not designed to be safely released if you try tap out of it. Pull the joint lock through the technique as intended, the arm snaps in half. The reason for that is very simple: it's a tactical military technique, designed for medieval warfare, not something you do when rolling with your BJJ buddies on a Saturday open mat session in 2021. So in a way there ARE different types of techniques, not necessarily by national or stylistic differences (although those flavours exist in a way as well), but more in terms of their intended use: sports, performance arts, security, civilian protection, military, etc.
@@Veepee92 of course we train differently for different situations. Certain moves are forbidden in sparring for safety reasons I'm sure. Point being....take those armlocks and adapt them bin to your game...for self defense purposes of course. The point was that grappling is grappling despite the many names and countries attached to a technique. I see your point though. That would be the smart thing to do...to adapt those techniques.
@@fletchkeilman2205 While I agree, in the particular example that I gave there isn't necessarily any good reason to adapt an inherently damaging technique for sport purposes. BJJ has independently invented and developed a swath of techniques that have never in history existed before, because they had a unique historical situation of gi-based submission grappling. Those new BJJ techniques probably work better in BJJ than the old Koryu ones ever could. But in a more general note, it's a good thing to mix'n'match traditions and approaches when they have mutual overlap. So in a way there isn't even a real argument, just the idea that you should be smart how and why you want to put things together.
@@Veepee92 Agreed. I was pointing it out in a way that I would think it would be common sense for anyone to think said techniques would be a great addition for sport. What I mean is, I'm automatically assuming the practitioner would understand the difference and practice said techniques accordingly. You hit it on the nosey, my friend. Also...and I am probably going to save this for a time when I can spend about an hour typing ...I wanted to point out that the way we fight changes drastically through time, cultures, borders, etc. While we now realize simplistic approaches to fighting tend to be the best, that does not mean everyone who was a highly skilled fighter eventually fought the same way. No matter how we look at it, there always have been fixed patterns that fighters have used through the ages, and they don't always look alike (and they don't always "translate" well once across certain borders). I guess what I'm getting at is kung fu worked for Kung Fu people (in the past...for example, boxers in the age of the Boxer's Rebellion) because that is what people there perceived as combat. So Kung Fu was effective for those surviving using those tools and during those dynasties. Of course, like anything, it changed and developed, but my point here is that the Art's relevancy was high, given it's place in time......and before the rifle was put in front of them. Sorry. I hope you understand my point a bit. I just had to type that because I think there is more to "what works use and disregard the rest" notion then we tend to discuss this approach. We almost seem to come to the conclusion that none of these ever arts worked at all, and it is only martial arts that we currently train that will ever be effective. Did I get that out right? I swear I'm not cognitively challenged.
@@johnboyjordan1915 “...and be trained in a mediocre club with no live sparring, and so not work.” The grammar is off, could you explain what you were trying to say haha. And btw I agree with you. Every martial art or fighting style can work, and every martial art or fighting style won’t work.
Good stuff.. Yeah this Prove to me question being posed is understandable for tge inquirer but is kinda ofgrnsive to the one who knows it works and is minding their own business. Like thrle comment in the video about out dated WC Wong Shun Leung clip.. It is sen as out dated and not effective by the one who does not know what is effective and useful about it. Wong Shun Leung, in this scenerio, was called the King of talking hands.. Meaning he is likely not using some technique/ practice/ drill that could ever be considered out dated.
@@vinslungur no. Knowing how to fight involves knowing how to get into positions to use your style in the best way possible. Today most practitioners of martial arts do it for recreation. More like glorified gymnastic classes. That is the reason why they fail. And their style gets all the blame.
this was pretty interesting, first time I see a wing chun guy use his style so well in practical application. I guess the problem really is the inadequate training methods, more sparring needed for most schools.
My Wing Chun school sparred without gloves. Low speed, med speed, and full speed and power. Lots of other schools called us barbaric. I was like...at least we can fight. I got kneed in my solar plexus in a fight test once...whew that sucked. I got kneed in the head fighting a black belt too...he wasn't trying to but he clipped me and I was down lol. Real sparring teaches you what works and what doesn't.
@@poorchristopher15 I was fighting someone who wasn't using Wing Chun...so yeah I got kneed in the Solar Plexus. In our fight tests our opponents were allowed to use anything they knew. The person being tested was to use their WC skills only though. Sorry to pull the wind put of your sails pal.
Agree with this for sure, I did get some good skills from Wing Chun in terms of some techniques but we never sparred really. It did help me in my next martial art though but I feel what I do now is a lot more realistic. Good to see Wing Chun if trained the right way can deliver results.
Qi La La is from Taiwan which I am as well. He practices not only Wing Chung but some internal systems(內家拳) too. What most impresses people is that he started martial art at his mid 30's.
He actually started at 28 according to Jerry. (Fight Commentary Breakdowns) Edit: XI YI is an internal art that he knows, but that's about it beside his wing chun and tong bei.
@@toyoseries interesting. Hehe. I've thought of training many years ago, back when Kimbo was still alive, and he was training at the gym across from the university my parents worked at, FIU. I was born and raised in infamous Miami, FL, USA, and happily live abroad from all three of those places now.
This reinforces what I’ve long believed - that traditional MAs aren’t technically flawed or anything but they frequently are poorly trained and poorly understood, even by instructors in those arts. That’s been my experience.
Unfortunately, this is what happens when you go multiple generations of instructors who have never needed to actually use what they teach. I suspect that bringing Chinese martial arts in particular to their former glory is going to involve a lot of effort, with instructors actively working to rediscover which aspects of their art they can actually make work in which situations. What people need to remember is that techniques in forms are typically exaggerated motions to teach the concepts, while in practice they're most likely going to look like "bad kick boxing", as it looks very similar to what a kick boxer would expect to see, but not identical. As an example, the reason that tan tui has you swing one fist down and behind you while you step and punch with the other isn't that you're supposed to have a fist behind you when you punch, it's to help a complete beginner get used to stepping forward while keeping their head at the same level.
@@Parker8752 That's kind of my understanding, that the application of techniques could look very different from the "classical presentation" you see in forms. Besides being generally less exageratted - where the form might have a high kick, the application could be low, or you might step backward in the form but forward in application, etc. In addition, I suspect they don't spend enough time training with the people they will compete against. It's one thing to have a fellow student play the role of a boxer, as one example, but that's not the same as actually training with a high level boxer and figuring out how things work in that environment. TMAs probably also lack the collective wisdom and experience other groups have in training people to be effective in a sporting arena.
Why ? If you actually think about are those techniques you learn actually what is effective in fights ? Or does it turn into Muay Thai or kickboxing with a slightly different stance ? Why then waste your time learning all those useless techniques?
@@JayzsMr To use the Tan Tui example I gave earlier, the point is to have something that you can practice on your own, with no equipment, that will improve your body mechanics. The exaggerated motion in the form is to help you learn how to move your whole body - again, the arm that's swinging down and back is to help you practice stepping forward without raising your head. Each form in traditional CMA has a purpose, and that purpose isn't always just to impart techniques. Some are to aid with developing stamina, while others are to aid with developing footwork. When you get right down to it, a jab is a jab, a cross is a cross, and a leg kick is a leg kick. The difference is in how you learn to use them and what role they play in your overall fighting strategy.
I came here the first time and im back again. Im glad you made this video about Wing Chun. I believe it's functional, but there are some feuds between schools that are just the worst. It's good to see my martial art be vindicated in your eyes and im glad you are doing this awesome content.
It's not true though, is it? I mean, it's patently not true - hence why this 'There's no Canadian geometry' metaphor doesn't work. A karate punch is not a boxing punch. But I wouldn't want to stand there and let either a pro boxer or a legit Okinawan karate master punch me in the chops.
@@ScottGarrettDrums Not really though - the difference between a boxing punch and a karate punch aren't subtle. Moreover, there's a lot more involved than the mechanics of the punch - there's context of use, considerations of defence, historical context ect. None of which could really be called 'subtle differences'.
As a wing chun practitioner, I'm glad that most of them agree with your points. A significant chunk of wing chun schools are not good. The best ones always have cross training elements and sparring
Or just go learn from ip man son ip chun XD or learn from jackie chan when he beating the wooden chummy from the movie or learn from donnie yen himself XD
@@Eldrygg that's a naive point of view. Constantly sparring against wing chun will never prepare you for tactics from other arts like karate or bjj. Even if you don't train those arts, test yourself against them
I train wrestling. Yes that of mma and olympic. which is well known for being practical. The thing is, I've never able to use those practical moves in my first sparring because the 'situation' for the move was never easily given. It was same with the bjj and striking when I learned. sparring is what make everything practical, and that's why it is called practice
Honestly, I am not MMA and Martial Artist. My relatives is. Your explanation about how Marco and Qi La La (the Chinese MMA Wingchun, sorry if I type it wrong) do pressure test and asking for tips from the other fighter different from Wing Chun is totally right. Yours makes me remember how my relatives often told me that She, the other student, and her teacher sometimes went to different martial art dojos to do some exchange. She was in Pencak Silat. They went to Karate, Tae Kwon Do, or other different style to do sparring and exchanging tips for practical use. Thank you for explaining this. Hope you find what you really need Sir. Have a nice and safe journey
While I agree that traditional arts do have value, whether it be for personal fitness/cultural appreciation/etc, it is worth noting that, at that point, they can’t really be classed as ‘MARTIAL’ arts. A ‘martial’ art is exactly that - a ‘warlike’ art, meant for combat. If these ‘styles’ have little to no combat application, can they really be classed as martial arts?
Chi Sao, sticky hands is about training your touch sensitivity and reflex. It's not a fighting technique, it trains you to fight by touch alone and how to move once contact is established.
True cause chi sao itself would only work against another wing chun user since chi sao isnt catching a jab into a trap as much as I wish it could at least lap sao exists so I guess it's something but I cant really call it a trap since it's more of a grappling setup for a most likely finisher
@@dr.dylansgame5583 There are some who have been tested adding mantis to wing chun, letting you at any point go into mantis locks and throws. I'm by no means an expert, but it seems they compliment each other quite well.
I will just add, that in a clinch and on the floor, Chi Sao made me conquer opponents way quicker. I am doing Wing Chun since 2010, and I have to say. Putting stuff to the test is what makes it useful.
I really appreciate this video, there’s a big problem in WC with the lack of hard sparring and pressure testing. I believe that WC has a lot to offer MMA and other combat sports. I think WC needs to develop its own full contact fighting rules/format that can help to cultivate real WC fighters who could transition to MMA
Really glad you pointed out the "Wing Chun" aspects of the style. Too many people focus on singular techniques instead of the system as a whole, and how the guard stance influences the footwork influences the punching influences the clinching etc.
After practicing Karate, Tae kwon Do and Bujinkan Ninjutsu, Wing Chun is actually the martial art that I want to settle on. Not wanting to compete or anything like that, but I love the spiritual, and physical aspect of it, and being not completely useless in self defence is only a major bonus.
I'm relieved that you actually found stuff about Wing Chun on the internet. I was trying to figure out how to make one of my own. A lot of people shit on it a lot but then praise Bruce Lee who practiced it along with other arts. I was on that part of my journey when I was 14 when I thought that Wing Chun was the best and Karate sucked and I was ignorant about it and spreading hate like I knew. I didn't think I needed to spar even when my Sifu insisted. But when him and the MMA instructor decided to do a cross spar for a couple days, I realized that I was really good at fighting people within the same art, but I'm just ok compared someone who spars all the time. Then I realized that it's good to cross train and spar. And the instructors made sure that if we had any ego that it was wiped away. I realised Wing Chun wasn't the best art, it was just the best for me, it felt natural to me and that's what any martial artist should strive for. Find something that fits you and that you enjoy but kerp an open mind that, it's not the same for everyone. From that day on when it came time to do drills, I would tell my partner to really try to hit me and sometimes tell them to come at me like a boxer would. If you practice with just one art, then you only know how to fight again that one art. I had to get literally punched in the face (and more) to learn that. I still strictly practice Wing Chun but I open my mind to the rest of the world and incorporate it into my style. My Sifu tried to teach me something that sometimes can't be taught with words. This is my journey, and I hope that it helps with yours.
Bro/sis I'm literally going through the same thing I practice Wing Tsjun and karate and I've always felt that karate is pretty basic compared to Wing Tsjun but when sparring in karate I realise that if I were to implement a Wing Tsjun technique or punches it might not work in that situation. I usually end up getting beaten when going against Karate brown belts since I'm not a brown belt yet but it really broadens your perspective of martial arts and sparring. I agree with what you said it's good to train in and practice several styles over several years rather than sticking to only one style in order to gain an understanding of fighting techniques from the full spectrum of martial arts and it's also important to spar often. I've also seen a lot of people shitting on Wing Chun even in this comment section it's pretty frustrating that they underestimate a powerful martial art.
@@e.d.rarendyag7firnen28 don't waste your time. Even from those videos it is obvious than wing chun conditioning only hinders them. Boxing and MMA are the 2 best martial arts there. MMA even has it in its name - for the moment it is most complete, universal and practical MA there is. If you just like WC, sure, do it, just don't fool yourself thinking it is a real fighting system. It is not, at best it is a health excercise. And if you wondering i did WC myself. And o boi i regret it. "Masters" even admitted that they just scammed money when i started questioning everything. I even got banned on WC federation forum for questioning lack of sparring lmao.
WC is not best for you. It is just the only thing you really practiced, and it being really different and rare from anything else adds to its attractivness. Just give it a few months of MMA or boxing and you will forget WC like a bad fevered dream.
@@SwordWieldingDuck That's your dojo, every dojo is different. Just like any martial art, there are frauds and there are ones just for health, there are ones only for competition, and there are ones that teach you practical applications. I work Security and wingchun helped me protect myself a lot of times. MMA is a mix of martial arts correct? In our school next door to us there is an mma class ghat incorporates wingchun in it along with silat, kali, kuntao, BJJ and some others. Mma isn't it's oen style its a mixure or a melting pot of styles. Saying MMA and boxing are the best is like saying "I like my cheeseburgers with cheese" that's nice. Just look at your mma and see what arts are mixed in it, its not just one thing.
@@SwordWieldingDuck But it is, the movement of the style fits well with my personality and mindset. It's similar to taoist beliefs which is also my kind of mindset. It works for me and I feel like myself since I first started it. You like boxing, good for you. Just fucking do it and stop telling people their art is a waste of time. We all have preferences, I tried boxing, I feel like it sucks because you can't use your feet but that's my opinion. I know it works I've seen it, but it just wasn't for me so I stopped it and found something right for me. Yeah mma is great, but gyms who only practice that tend to be ignorant at times and for get what mma really means. That can happen with any art though. It's pretty sad how people in such a diverse art can be so prejudice.
I definitely agree with you. When I started studying TKD in the 80's, we were taught to condition the body, we had sparring and our strikes were to connect under pressure training. I was knocked out once during such training from a back fist to my temple which followed through his rear spinning kick which I avoided. Shame I didn't see his follow through. I didn't see it or feel it. I woke up on the floor. And that KO taught me better.
You misinterpreted the reason why he changed his style. He never fully mastered Wing Chun, in fact, he wasn’t even great at it either. If I recall correctly I think it was the fight between Bruce Lee and Wong Jack Man that made him realize his aggressive nature just didn’t work well with Wing Chun, he still kept some principles that aligned with him, but of course he would go on to create Jeet Kune Do to fit his mindset. Although, honestly, you’re probably right about scams, the more popular the Kung Fu style, the more likely it’s an instructor that has learned their art with the intention of just teaching it for money, never pressured tested themselves to actually use what they know. Check out lesser known styles and it’ll be easier to find legitimacy.
@@JmbutPetal You haven't seen those Russians using some Wing Chun techniques in some Russian MMAs. LOL In Russia, they call it "Wu Shu" which is the Mandarin of "Kung fu". Keep watching UFC and you don't know how big this world is. Sure BJJ beats some wrestling kids in the US. Have you seen any of them beating any strong wrestlers in the Middle East and Russia? LOL Your world is too small, pal.
The main thing that is missing in a lot of scenarios is testing the martial art against actual pressure. It's not that the martial arts are "useless" it's that they aren't trained against actual pressure testing, sparring and resistance. If you actually train to fight and against actual resistance it can help you figure out ways to use some of those techniques and principles in an actual fight. You find what works, what doesn't work and what techniques could actually be applied. One of the best aspects is that he considered BJJ essential in MMA, but he still utilizes the effective strikes he learned from Wing Chun and Kung Fu and applies them to combat sports because he actually TRAINS THEM in combat sports and against actual resistance and utilizes what techniques and principles work in a real fight and not spending time on what doesn't. It's pretty great to see.
Hi Rokas, I am a 67yr old guy who has been training martial arts consistently since I was 16. I did wing chun for 15yrs, TKD reaching 3rd dan and now train in Shotokan I have only had to defend myself once when a guy attacked me in the street. He ran at me with his right fist clenched and threw a right hook at me. Without thinking I reacted with Wing Chun, stepping into him whilst blocking with a left hand tan sau at the same time throwing a right hand punch (With an upward twist at the end of the punch, a technique Joseph Cheng taught me that I have never seen in other W,.C, schools). It worked, I knocked him out. Incidentally, an 8th dan TKD master once told me that all martial arts are 90% the same, the 10% differences are the techniques of the individual art, the 90% sameness is relaxation and breathing and I get that!
Wow I respect you for having devoted a huge portion of your life to learning and mastering martial arts and even better studying Wing Chun under Joseph Chen.
It is a blatant lie. To see how actually different MAs are it is enough to compare WC with BJJ. They have literally nothing in common. Also, all 3 MAs you practiced pretty much qualify as being bullshidos. Even in your prime all your 15 years of training you would stand no chance against a fresh boxer who practiced only for 2-3 years.
@@SwordWieldingDuck we don't know this guy, but he claims he is 67 and only had to get in a fight once where the attacker clearly was enraged. Not he was claiming wing Chun was the best. Just because it worked there, doesn't mean it'd work everywhere else but no need to get worked up about it.
@@vandamme6379 Most people who say, “Everything’s gonna work out in the end,” tend to (seemingly) take it to mean all on its own whether you take action or not, taking it to imply that there isn’t much of a point unless you see a strong reason or something. Just because many people misinterpret a piece of wisdom that they think they understand, or perhaps do understand at some level yet are still struggling to apply more broadly because they still have some deeper realizations to make (which naturally takes time) doesn’t necessarily discount the value of the saying itself That being said, when something becomes more broadly misunderstood than understood, it’s usually worth getting away from and restating it in a new way that’s more likely to be more immediately understood as much as possible (unless in a context where the aim is to have someone grapple with an idea for a while and figure it out for themselves, of which there can be quite a few, but typically not as a publicly mass-cited aphorism)
Speaking of Wing Chun, I used some trapping in my sparring and it actually worked. Not full trapping though. Just basic trapping and then right back to kickboxing
When I came from Wing Chun and had my first sparring with an MMA guy I noticed trapping is fantastic for offensive purposes (opening the guard etc.), but sucks when it comes to defense. It definitely has it’s place when used properly.
My trainer mixed WC with moves from traditional kickboxing and Indonesian boxing and it proved quiet effective. Still calls it Wing Chun for some reason lmao.
I just started Boxing and I reflexivly try to roll my ellbow over my oponents parry. Really annoying because it doesnt work and because it exposes my bad wingchun conditioning.
It's interesting, Wing Chun's front kick (its most used kick) is really similar to a teep kick. And there's clinchwork (which can also be found in the wooden dummy form). Trapping, on the otherhand, is not really the focus of WC as many think. When "trapping" happens it's to remove an obstacle in the way of a punch to the face, not to wrap up someone's arms for a minute or whatever
Interesting topic. When I practiced Wing Chun, I could see why our sifu did not allow sparring. We were taught fights were dangerous, anything could happen. He said, Try not to get into a fight, but if you do, get out of it as quickly as possible. As a result, we were taught to incapacitate our opponent with strikes to the eyes, solar plexus, groin, etc. If that’s your goal, kind of hard to spar. Chi sau did pay off for me. I have been victorious in several street fights. What amazed me was how automatic the moves came to me. It was just like that Karate Kid movie. In one, a guy threw a punch. I blocked it automatically and was mesmerized at my reflexes. What I had failed to notice was that as I blocked the punch, I simultaneously punched the guy in the face. I looked over and he was on the ground. So the practice has its value. However, years later when I wished once again to study wing chun, I wanted sparring. I agree with you that there is no substitute for actual fighting. I could not find a wc school with sparring. The schools that I did find were so wrapped up in tradition that they appeared almost cult like (I’m sure not every school is like that, but the ones in my geographic region were). I ended up taking a karate class with my kid. Lots of sparring. Not only did the sparring help me acclimate to somewhat real fighting situations, but it also helped me adjust to my own body movements and speed during a fight. Of course, Bruce Lee had his own criticisms of Wing chun. I think anyone learning to fight should be schooled on punching, kicking and grappling from whichever school they can. And sparring is a must.
I’m sure a lot of WC schools out there spar. The Yip Man lineage was the most popular and common, Yip Man’s students basically built their reputation on rooftop sparring against other schools in Hong Kong. My lineage is an obscure village style of WC and we spar.
When a wing chun person says too dangerous for sparring, I roll my eyes. Practitioners back in the day fought on the roof tops of Hong Kong everyday. That's how various different kungfu schools hung out.
@@haircutdeluxe true I spar with wing chun with my dudes all the time I just dont use the dirty stuff like bi jui eye jab or a straight ball kick or the foot stomp that stuff is only for a real fight just practice it and learn how to fake using it in a real spar and make sure its strong when you need and you will be fine since a eye poke and ball kick are easy a foot stomp is a little harder to land but a lot of people simply dont expect it which is a plus to it
My friends when your natural instinct is to hit neck straight to kill and so on, sparring can sometimes be dangerous, if you do not spar with right gear. When they say Wing Chun sparring can be deadly they mean some people can lose control and do terrible stuff. I hurted my friends before with rubber weapons when I got too much into fight and went for win at all cost mode, with gloves also. But we did not had any proctective gear except of gloves at all and that really can be a problem with some individuals. Think about it this way. There really is a problem for some, but it can be solved with a right gear, that is what I think. So when they say too gangerous for sparring, it is excuse for not solving the problem.
Many techniques aren't even allowed in UFC, Pride, etc. UFC and whatever aren't true fighting, as there are rules. On the street, rules don't apply. Which martial art is effective against multiple gunmen with Uzis or the like?
Fun fact: Qi Lala is a practitioner of Wong Shun Leung Wing Chun and in some of the clips of the traditionalist displays of skill you've shown (including the very first one) Wong Shun Leung himself was the demonstrator. I totally get your point but I found it kind of funny too.
The feels like a next chapter in Martial Arts Journey. This feels like a more into true critical thinking. Before it felt more like a replacement of Aikido with BJJ & MMA. Now it feels like you are actually why and not what ie why a style or system works/doesn't work and what would happen if it adjustments were made.
Gotta second this. As a wing chun practitioner who started out as a boxer and has dabbled in other styles (Krav, Jujutsu, couple other things here and there), this was an excellent and well thought out video. I'm not used to seeing this kind of analysis from the mma community, truth be told. Wish I'd seen the post on r/wingchun, I'd have loved to contribute footage. So many wing Chun schools in the west don't spar, don't pressure test. I'm a huge proponent of both, thanks to my Sifu and my kung fu brothers. Pre-plague, I ran a sparring meet up in conjunction with a local kenpo school for exactly that reason; folks from all styles in the region could come together and touch hands, exposing themselves to new styles and types of pressure. I've gotten to spar with so many styles thanks to that and it really improved my Wing Chun. I once spent a day rolling around on the floor with a bjj guy exploring sensitivity and structure in the context of a ground fight. I once took a muy Thai knee right in the solar plexus (ooowwww) and spent the rest of the day working with him on clinch fighting. (Props to him for not being afraid to nail a girl in the gut.) Sparring and real pressure were always a key component of Wing Chun training and it makes me sad that it's fallen away over the last 50 years or so. I'm hoping more folks take critiques like this into account and bring it back in. Respect, dude.
@@SwordWieldingDuck well clearly I've found something if I prefer it over my previous boxing, Krav, and Jujutsu training right? Granted, I'm a woman, so ymmv. There's no one best style, train whatever is best for your specific body type and how your body prefers moving.
@Kommisar sparring was always integral to Wing Chun. Just because we don't have nice tournaments with medals and whatnot doesn't mean we don't spar. Tkd has fancy tournaments. I wouldn't exactly call most Tkd combat effective. And yes, I'm well aware of how early UFC was essentially an infomercial for the Gracies. They picked the lineup and told the announcers what to say. It's amazing how many people don't know that. It was designed from the first match to make Gracie jiu-jitsu look good (which it did. And I don't think anyone's arguing that it's not incredibly effective in specific scenarios. Best martial art though? No such thing. Not bjj. Not Wing Chun. Not boxing. Not karate. Not Krav. There's no single best martial art.)
I started to practice wing chun 2 weeks ago Now I'm glad to see that the Sifu keep the focus in sparring. While in one side of the room we are practicing the basic movements, in the other side, are two guys slamming each others face and bringing the fight to the floor
You may need a lot of the hard punches on the face to get someone down, and remember that after the first punch, the other one miiiiight want to hit you back
For Wing Chun it's the elbows that deliver the power, though, and not even Muay Thai practitioners spar in a medium or heavy way with elbows. That's one big reason why Wing Chun doesn't spar much.
As someone who trains Wing Chun. I was really happy to hear you make the distinction between Chi Sau and sparring. I have found the two get wrongly compared. For me and my class mates it is for practicing technique, structure, facing, sensitivity etc. It can be like having a conversation with your hands so to speak. However, the intensity can be turned up when necessary making it more dynamic - but it is still not sparring.
aye, but if it's not applied & you don't learn to follow up with a hard strike then what ? your insticts let you down, you can control an opponent's arms in close but don't have the muscle memory ingrained to do much with it after that, frankly it's useful for handling belligerent friends you need to settle down or drunks during security work, but in a fight it lets you down unless you learn to apply it through sparring
@@Marcusjnmc Right. You have to apply at full speed. I used chi sao in a sparring session one time and used it to get over a guy's block and put him in a rear naked choke in less that a second. Both he and I were quite surprised at that exchange because he was a red belt and I was a yellow. It was when I started to really figure out how to use pressure in full speed.
@@Marcusjnmc If you don't learn to follow up with a hard strike you train wrong. Not necessarilly something that should be blamed on the style itself, maybe a particular school :D. I'm still a beginner and I was fairly bruised from chi sau training alone, because more senior students do follow up to check "if you are really there".
@@shevetlevi2821 I recently began training in Goju-Ryu and was surprised by just how many parallels there were between that and what I grew up with in Wing Chun. Can definitely see the similar roots.
@@Tenchigumi Yes, definitely Anthony. I'm sure you know that Goju means hard-soft. The name of the kung fu style that Uechi ryu came from is Pangai noon which also means hard-soft. I consider Okinawan Goju ryu a sister style of Uechi ryu. You can see how they both find their roots in southern Chinese with the circular blocks, high stances and short to medium range techniques.
@Razgriz the Mandalorian I agree about the vulnerability when the fight goes to ground. I trained in BJJ for 3 years but didn't see the connection with Okinawa-te. Very interesting idea Razgriz. Please explain further on this.
@Razgriz the Mandalorian You've given me alot to think about. I haven't trained with others since the shutdown in March 2020. When I get back to it this will be an interesting concept to try. The Internet is so cool that this subject can come up. You might live on another continent but we can still exchange ideas across the miles.
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I'm currently in a school where the older instructor was dangling "sparring" as this big carrot but in reality it was more about just doing chi sao and learning new combinations. The instructor (much younger) that came after he retired decided to ramp up the conditioning and strength training, footwork and timing drills, and I soon found out why: he wants to do high intensity chi sao first and then let people get into bouts. My lessons changed pretty much overnight, from static drills and chi sao with all the partners, to conditioning, then forms, and chi sao drills (with extra pushups and focus mitts in between), then the chi sao drills transition into kind of "here's a problem, use what you have to solve it" testing, where the partner just starts from a specific spot but it can develop all kinds of ways. Point of those being to learn to recompose and relax quickly and not let your brain go into panic. The instructor I have now has also trained other MAs and sees the fun in just getting into bouts and making students solve their problems cleanly. Needless to say, the amount of bruises and punches to the face is now a thousand times more than what I received during the older instructor.
“To be bound by traditional martial art style or styles is the way of the mindless, enslaved martial artist. But to be inspired by the traditional martial art and to achieve further heights is the way of genius.” Bruce Lee
Drills are fine but real sparring teaches you way more because the pain makes you remember. My first lesson - We had a system of 40mins cardio, weights - then sparring for 25 mins. But no matter how tired your arms are, you keep them up. Because getting hit on the face hurts more than tiring your arms. The last 25 mins was conditioning, abs and stretching. It was brutal but effective. And everyone had respect for each other. We managed our strength so the impacts would hurt but never maim. The days were divided in Kickboxing, Boxing and BJJ. And weekends were for pure 90 mins sparring sessions where you could test all that you had learned.
I was actually having a discussion about this the other day with my friend. I think Wing Chun has some amazing concepts but when I learned it for fun, the actual techniques were not taught well. However I loved the concepts, now when fighting Muay Thai or boxing, the concepts are very helpful. Though I no longer practice wing-chun, I see myself applying a lot of it's concepts when I am fighting my opponents close range. So in a sense, I use my own minor version of wing-chun because I take it's concepts and figure out how it works in normal fight pressure. I love wing-chuns concepts, and I believe when practiced under the proper circumstances the art is actually practical.
@@SonsOfDeForest One of the major ones is: "do things simultaneously". They teach you to defend and counter attack at the same time as much as possible. It is very unintuitive at first, because the intuitive rhytm of a fight is defend, then attack and the brain isn't great at actually controlling independent actions of both hands and front leg by default. In wing chun you would instead parry with right hand, while left goes for a punch at the same time for example or parry with right, keep left near your chin, but kick leading leg with your leading leg, again at the same time as you parry/block the punch. That's why it needs to be trained, to retrain the instinct (to defend and just defend first) and teach your brain to handle both arms and front leg separately. The simultaneous moves then screw opponents over, because it's unintuitive for them too, but they are not used to it unlike you. I used to do fencing and I can't tell you for a fact, that you can fence for 10 years and then someone hands you a second sword for your offhand and you are absolutely clueless. Brain doesn't comprehend at all and the second sword actually gets in your way and you want to throw the thing away. That's why I think this is one of the very beneficial things wing chun can teach you and one of the core concepts.
@@SonsOfDeForest Another one would be: "compactness". Ofc wing chun teaches you legwork, but wing chun also teaches you how to deal with a situation where you can't move. It is a matter of shifting the centerline (and your center of mass) by shifting weight between your left and right leg while standing in place. You then leverage that while defending and attacking. For example to shift into a hook (because yes, wing chun likes for the attacks to come from the front, so we simply shift into them) or punch with the weight shift to get extra power. Kinda hard to explain without showing :D, but it's situationally useful. The "weird slapping hands in the air thing" training is also for these situations, where the opponent pushed himself into your comfort zone and you can't move away. So you need to deal with his hands somehow, to open a way for a straight punch. That's pretty much what wing chun is about: "things to do in various situations". Not just one sqeaky clean use case, where you fight single opponent in boxer shorts in large open space without obstructions, where you can stay on distance comfortable for you by backing away or moving around him.
@@AdamTuxTengler here's my problem with all that. 'simultaneity' is not exclusive to wing chun, it is a principle that applies to combat as a whole. the difference is the specific technique that is used. it is just not realistic to expect to be able to parry and strike consistently in a real fight. other systems have different techniques to address the same issue that are simply more effective (static blocks, foot work, head movement). ultimately if you are skilled enough to be effective using wing chun, you would be even more effective using boxing/mui thai/etc.
So pretty much majority of Wing Chun practicioners/schools are holding itself back from becoming a legit combat martial arts. If all of them had the same mindset like Qi lala and his teacher, who's knows how much further they could evolve Wing Chun.
Wong Shun Leung lineage pressure tests and focuses on actual application. The guy was a boxer before meeting Ip Man, and is pretty much the one student of Ip Man to actually fight in real life. Sadly it's is a lineage which does not seem to be as accessible as others.
Thank you. You're videos are first class and your sincerity/honesty is beyond question. I have trained in a classical martial art for many years and have concluded that: 1. Ability is much more about the individual than the style. I am sure that some styles are more effective than others, but in my experience an able/effective individual will succeed whatever style she/he practices. Furthermore, I have trained with many senior blackbelts I could blow over and with many novices off the street who could probably do the same to me. I think an individual's experience in life, relentlessness, attitude, endurance, genetic ability, IQ etc are at least as important as the style she/he trains in. 2. I have no doubt that some "martial arts" (boxing, muay thai, wrestling, BJJ etc) are more effective in skilled combat, particularly in the ring or cage, than others. However, I wouldn't dismiss the effectiveness of classical martial arts (including aiki-do & karate) in the self-defence scenario against idiots and drunks, provided commonsense, situational awareness and a lack of false ego are incorporated. 3. We live in an age in which training in many different martial arts is easily available to all. When I was young you were lucky to find any sort of martial arts dojo hosted by a quality teacher nearby. I would encourage all martial artists to cross train in as many styles (within reason!) as possible provided the teachers and schools feel right. I think the ideal for those of us who do martial arts on a recreational basis is to focus on a single art but to supplement with skills from others. Just my opinion of course. 4. Effective techniques are the simplest techniques and usually those which depend upon gross motor control rather than detailed, complex, precise techniques. Of course, highly trained individuals might be able to master the latter but most mere mortals under conditions of stress are much more likely to succeed using the former. Apologies for the longish self-indulgence here. I think I am trying to say that I am happy that you are not dismissing some classical arts including wing chung. As I said it depends upon the individual and her/his ability to excel by being open minded and incorporating techniques from other styles. Please keep up the superb work. ATVB.
*triggered Taiwanese noises* In all seriousness though, Qi La La is from Taiwan. I think that most people would agree that regardless of if you think Taiwan is a country, it's usually more appropriate to refer to it as a separate "place"
@@idleeidolon Like which masters? I lived in Taiwan for 5 years, well I didn't try too hard to find the best masters there, but aside from Ip Man nephew, do you know Wing Chun master in Taiwan?
I have studied wing chun for a couple months now. We do mostly drills and such, but once you reach a certain level of skill, we do have sparring or "shadow fighting" as my sifu often calls it
Good video. I originally started Wing Chun training in Hawaii over 40 years ago. Since moving to the mainland and seeing how many local schools train I have to agree with much of what you say here. I've noticed the thing with Chi Sau being used as a sparring drill. It was never taught to me as such. Chi sau was simply a flowing drill meant to help learn sensitivity and movement from one position to the other while feeling the movement from your opponent. Being able to control your own "energy" as it were (what the opponent feels). We had actual sparring drills which were basically controlled fights where to "win" you had to knock your opponent completely down at least 3 times. Chi Sau was never conducted in this manner. I've also noticed that many of the WC schools I've encountered here tend to practice wing chun as a series of prearranged movements and they don't learn to adapt to the opponent instead they focus on using brute strength. This can work if one's opponent is significantly less strong but usually doesn't fair so well when an opponent is of equal of greater strength or of greater skill. In the end, like Mr. Lee and many others have pointed out, a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick, the fact is that how well one does in fighting is in many ways how well you apply the various movement options at any given moment in relation to what you opponent is doing. Anyway long story short great video and breakdown.
I leaning wc on my own bc I saw how it flowed together and had unique techniques thats only in Kung fu n kinda forgotten about that work really well like elbows smashing punches, standing arm bar n breaks, all of the elaborate sticky hands n traps techniques, n my favorite stomping incoming kicks outta the way like no one is doing that somehow (I actually started to do it on my own as a kid n then saw Jackie Chang do em in his movies). And the thing about how to learn the way to chain strikes in wc is supposed to be in etheir the wood dummy or shadow boxing in a way where ur strike need to make ur enemy in ur head move accordingly so leg kick him he's goes a bit lower/tumbles, u can even make him trow a punch to fight back so u do a counter strike or him blocking in a obvious way that most ppl will so u then react quickly to it n often can use that postion as ur advantages as all techniques leaves you open to another and all ur little figth r supposed to be quick so its all getting in fast ko with little resistance n restart its like doing in n out drills in boxing but u chain enough to ko or hurt badly, I just find it sad that one of the best martial art gets disrespected due to lost of knowledge
You can't do any chi sau in any real fights, if you can't even close the distance. People simply jump around and good boxers do not stick their arms out after a punch. chi sau is only used for conditioning your arms and be able to reaction faster. The concept of center line is useful. but it is useless if you don't have good footwork and you encounter people who can go around to your side quickly, like Baaqua. People with good footwork can go to your side and attack from your side. Check our good boxers like Lomachenko.
I trained under the wong shun leung wing chun lineage in London for a bit...they did have some practical pressure testing compared to the other wing chun I did.
Wong shun leung did boxing before wing chun and trained Bruce Lee for a bit...his boxing background i feel added a pressure fighter ethos that I noticed amongst his students...they have a lot of forward pressure in their wing chun style
hi there. I'm a wing chun practitioner with some experience on some other martial arts. I think the concepts of wing chun are pure gold for a good fighter.
I like how humble, honest, and open you are to the possibility of being wrong. You don't seem to allow your ego to get in the way of your learning and growth. I'm currently striving to be more like that. Thank you for sharing your journey in your videos. It's so inspiring!
@@SwordWieldingDuck Facts. There's a reason that highly paid MMA fighters (and the guys that coach them) use the styles that they do. Some ways of moving the human body are simply more efficient and superior overall than others. By op's logic, a Tai Chi master could be a multimillionaire UFC champion if only he "mastered his style."
Great video. I always thought there was something to handtrapping. I see a tiny bit of it when boxers parry. There's a video going around of Thug Rose from UFC practicing hand trapping and I'm excited to see it being used more in MMA. But time will tell if it's useful. Sidenote: being a blue belt in BJJ means you should be able to take care of an untrained opponent. Same could probably be said with Aikido and Wing Chung. The problem arises when you try it with trained opponents.
It's definitely mostly about the application. I trained in Lau Gar growing up and we did sparring for half an hour every session as well as a lot of pad work. But I was really surprised to discover that other schools did nothing but forms. That's basically like the equivalent of saying you do boxing but really just doing boxercise. I was skeptical about wing chun until I tried a class in China and genuinely couldn't believe their level of power
I used to be a chunner over 20 years ago. I studied for years under a sifu who was strict on form and pressure testing. From 12 until 19 I studied under this sifu until I left for the Navy. After my time in I came back to my home town to find my school was still there but my sifu had left someone else in charge. This sifu below him was a former classmate that at first seemed to focus on what my sifu had taught. I was so wrong. The students were dressed like they were cast members in Ip man movies. When I studied we had a T-shirt that had the school name in Cantonese. That’s it. We trained on concrete floors, no padding while pressure testing and the wooden dummy’s were meant to for full force. The new school was all about speaking in traditional terms, they padded up before “sparring” and Mats were brought out when you trained “ground fighting”. Absolute shit. When i began doing some chi sau with other students I was hitting them at full force when finding an opening. I could tell from the shock of the other student that this was not normal. I was yelled at by the sifu that, “we don’t train that way anymore!” And with that I became sad. My sifu (who has passed on may he Rest In Peace) was open minded and accepted that other martial arts are in the world. This new sifu was of the impression that wing Chun was all there is or ever will be. Needless to say I left and found a Muay Thai school. Trained hard there and was confronted at my own home a year after I left wing Chun by this new sifu. He stated that I had “put a cancer in my martial art” and that “I will never harness the true power of wing Chun”. What the hell!? Then he challenged me to “spar”. He wanted to chi sau, which I obliged. Following his lead I was thrown off my center line and paddy caked with his chain punching. I asked to go one more time and when he put up his hands I pushed back to keep my distance and used Muay Thai. When I kicked his thigh his face told everything to me. Fear. He was shown a flaw in his belief and didn’t know what to do. As he started to limp and couldn’t figure out why his leg would work, I asked him to leave my property. He went on about how I was banned from the council and that my name will be forever smeared in the wing Chun community. This long story is a cautionary tale to those who might be seeking out a “pure art”. Make sure the mystique of the system doesn’t cloud your search for a quality system. The wing Chun I trained in still sticks with me to this day. I have used it several times while in the Navy in street fights or friendly competition. I also used it for years working at a mental hospital where people try to hurt you daily. Wing Chun can and will work but hot if you believe it’s the end all be all. Each martial art is a tool box. Reach in and find the tools that have substance and disregard the fancy BS. To end, chain punching is a fantastic way to increase hand speed. Period. Now chain punching someone’s head is not recommended.
Aikido practitioners, where are you guys. One of the key concepts in most martial arts is honesty. Ask yourself does this art really work and listen to what your thoughts tell you with an honest heart. The way to begin to fix anything starts with pure honesty.
Agree with having to be honest. I've trained in Aikido 14yrs and over the last few years been asking the question about the training method. I believe it doesn't matter what martial art or fighting system your learning, it is a distant second to the way and method you train which means full on pressure testing.
@@tamalafaiki4512 unless the system you train in doesn't have the answers. If you are taught something and it's all wrong whether it's brain surgery or self-defense it's not going to help when you need it. I trained karate for ten years. I knew deep down my hands were crap and I had no answers for grappling it took about 2 years to finally leave and go train juijitsu and boxing. Don't waste anymore time I regret I waited so long.
@@jitsroller I think of Traditional martial arts kinda like accessories. Learn boxing/Muay Thai/ BJJ/ and either wrestling or judo. Then once you have a solid base of skill, and want to add some flair or uniqueness or something else, then look at TMAs.
Bruce Lee said: "To be able to defeat a bigger or any type of opponent, you need to practice and become good in footwork, do sparring and master broken rhythm!"
True Talk! Sometimes it depends on the fighter. One of my karate sensei sparred with other sports like kickboxing and kungfu to make his Karate Kumite better. Yet there were others that focus on Kata
My experience is limited to weapons based martial arts, but I find it interesting how the same trends certainly carry over. During my undergrad, I practiced a bit of kenjutsu (traditional Japanese swordsmanship not to be confused with the sport kendo.) I didn't stick around past one quarter since my schedule didn't work well with the club and they only ever did kata, introducing techniques at a snail's pace since they cared more about proper form. Which is a shame because there wasn't really a substitute at my school for historical combat. Fast forward to my current experience in grad school and I was able to join a HEMA club which actively spars and tends to introduce the techniques much faster. While none of our members claim to be experts (we just read the old manuscripts or consulted other schools to practice the techniques) I can safely say I've learned far more and far faster in this more pressure tested environment. I actually have zero doubt a new member even with three weeks of practice can defeat a member of my old kenjutsu club who trained for three years against the air. That being said, I definitely don't believe kenjutsu is inherently worse. From several videos on UA-cam of kenjutsu practitioners who went out of their way to spar, with enough practice they can prove competent swordsmen who hold their own against HEMA practitioners, even with the inherent reach disadvantages to their weapons. Many techniques and stances are also quite similar since there's only so many ways to swing a sword. And from my own experience, the one "attack" I learned from kenjutsu (swing high from a low guard) can be just as valid an opener as the more conventional attacks we officially covered in the HEMA club.
I have watched our videos for some time. Good to see that you share your experiences, including sharing your updates and learings. Concerning Wing Chun, what I used to learn and like to reengage in in an applicable way, some things are clear: a.) Many Wing Chun schools are TMA schools by defintion. They lack pressure testing like most TMA schools. b.) The "Kung Fu Cult" you already explained in a Video with your partner from Canada (Frank Lupo?) manifests this so called "non-fighting culture". So far, so bad. However, things are changing: a) Many well-experienced fighters who got disappointed by this "Cult" have already left their schools and foundet there own branches, like EBMAS or Wing Revolution/Wing Fighting. b) More and more "pure" Wing Chun guys want to overcome this "non-fighitng culture". c) As Germany has been a main place for the evolution of Wing Chung for many years, I suppose you could do more research on the German guys. Some of the top-fighters of the past are still allive and accessible, may it be under the original name or their new branch (like EBMAS). Here are some links to a German Wing-Chung-Guy representing the new breed of Wing-Chun-athlets: 1.) The Wingtsunner - analyzing the fail of WingChun in MMA/Full-Contact and exposing the non-fighting culture: ua-cam.com/channels/7-WzGa4fMbwBLAWbE6-vzg.htmlvideos 2.) Defencegroup: A group of athlets arround "The Wingtsunner", cross-training together for MMA, sharing WingChun, JDK, Kickboxing and BJJ: ua-cam.com/users/defencegroupvideos 3.) WingTsun Sport Association: Channel of the same guy, and his journey to become an Athlet for MMA-Competition - while using WingChun (WingTsun): ua-cam.com/channels/nz98avKU9JMbCW2HCLcW_g.htmlvideos HIs English is not excellent, as he is a native Germany speaker. However, his messages are understandable, even with a slightly German accent (that might sound rude to native English-Speakers, but just results from the sound of the German language). If you haven't known these channels before, they can give you a profound insight. After all, applicability in full-contact is a matter of the right training. A backyard shool of TMA, with the teacher and the student doing it only part time, can never meassure up with full-time athlet using modern training facilities, training concepts including professional conditioning and nutrition. All these things have to come togehter to produce an athlet. In addtion to realistic sparring, off course.
Wing chun substitutes the generation of force and reach from circular motions for the probability of being able to land a quick straight punch. In some contexts this works but not so much in ufc/mma where fighting takes place with gloves in a ring.
I enjoyed this video very much. While I haven't trained Wing Chun due to no good schools around me I really love the art and have wanted to train it for years. I learned as much as I could from online sources and while I now train Ted Wong lineage JKD I found some great Wing Chun practitioners in that time. I'd highly recommend Alan Orr and his Iron Wolves fight team. They have taken Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and tested it in MMA, boxing, and Kickboxing competition and done really well with it. Also Kevin Lee has been doing some great stuff as far as pressure testing his Wing Chun here on UA-cam. While they haven't to my knowledge produced fighters or pressure tested their Wing Chun in combat sports (to my knowledge) I'd also recommend Dominic Izzo's channel and Gary Lam's channel. Izzo is not opposed to sparring or combat sports but gears his Wing Chun more towards self defense, and Gary Lam teaches WSL lineage Wing Chun, the lineage that the first fighter you detailed in this video trains. Over the years I waded through a lot of bad Wing Chun and finally found these guys. While I haven't gotten to train Wing Chun yet, and love my TW JKD, in my opinion these guys are the best Wing Chun practitioners out there today. Go check them out and decide for yourselves. 🙂
The canadian geometry argument reminds of something i heard once when comparing european knights to japanese samurai. Samurai have a lot of mysticism behind them and a lot of people think of knights as being more brutish but in reality the way they fought was mostly the same, no matter where you're from at the end of the day a sword is just a sharpened metal bar and there are only so many ways you can swing a metal bar at your enemies.
@@Story_Sandwich I am aware, I have spent plenty of time studying that and am also aware that knights were not brutes but quite well trained. The argument was that despite their images the actuall techniques they developed are not that different from the samurai ones. No canadian geometry
@@andret3739 They really are very different, starting from the inherent properties of the weapons themselves: construction, weight, quality of steel used, length, construction of scabbard etc. You can’t even say that Western rapiers, zweihänders or sabers are fought with using same distancing or guards, not to mention techniques.
No, as someone who has practiced both and knows (and have fought) people pretty skilled in both I dare say you use a longsword and a katana in very different ways. The fencing theory and goals are vastly different for starters.
Very true, without sparring you remove the fighting from the system. Also true is that most Wing Chun school they not spar regular, I also agree Chi Sau have nothing to do with sparring. Chi Sau is a tool. I myself start Wing Chun in 1987 in 2007 I become a teacher. (Wong Shun Leung lineage) But I also have to say you can spar in difference ways. Sparring is an agreement. Sometimes I spar with my students with kicks and other times not. Sometimes I fight (Spar) like a boxer against my students so they can deal with these types of opponents and deal with this kind of stress. Sometimes my school we spar wearing gloves, but its not handy in our system to have gloves, the gloves get in the way of our movements. Sometimes we spar 2 against 1 to learn how to deal with more opponents. Problem in the Wing Chun world, there are not many real fighters, they are more office guys. Generally Wing Chun attract A other kind of people. Boxing, kickboxing and Thai boxing are sports. Wing Chun is a combat system for the street. When we make from Wing Chun a sport, all is lost. So the reason for sparring is not to win a contest, only test skills and try new things in practice, learn to deal with stress and aggression. But like I say before, without sparring you remove the fighting from the system. It’s a good video, good analyses. Greeting Silvano www.wingchunholland.nl
I was in a "wing chun" school that threw out all the forms, chi sau, and such and took the blocks, punches, elbows, knees, and kicks and practiced them in a way that muay thai, and boxers do with focus pads. We also trained very much how Jiu Jitsu does which is this a tan sao or this is a vertical punch, this is how it is applied in a controlled practice. Ok now spar using these tools for the pressure testing. We'd then go to other schools and spar and wipe the floor with everyone simply because they focused more on forms and we were sparing everyday. The techniques definitely got distilled down to their most basic form. We'd always say stick to your ABCs, which is why it always ends up looking like kickboxing. I liked the Canadian Geometry comparison.
I'm glad you corrected yourself because Wing Chun is an amazing fighting form and can be used to fight in MMA if the right kind of sparing is trained and practiced. The problem most martial arts are new age without the live fighting. I think Wing Chun is a very cool form being a counter based firm that focuses on rapid response when your form, balance and distance is right.
there's a lot of pretty trash media recently out of china that heavily implies wing chun is on the same level as aikido , it's not that surprising under this context
When discussing if a martial arts is affective you must take two things into consideration studying for self-defense and studying for competition I have done both as a person ‘s practice martial arts for 40 years I have done kickboxing jujitsu for sport and I’ve also have done Krav Maga, karate and some forms of Kung fu for self-defense also been a police officer for 30 years in a defensive tactics instructor the self-defense that I’ve learned do not always applied exactly how I learned it has worked when I needed to in situations that I have encountered on the job. So when judging a style you have a judging on self-defense or A sport
You are a SINCERE martial artist. Something in short supply across the entire martial arts world whether traditional or modern. Egos abound! I'm glad you and your videos exist :)
I would add that I don’t think Wing Chun’s problem is a lack of pressure testing because it’s quite easy to spar to test it with minimal protective gear. Maybe gloves and a mouth guard. The problem is that the techniques lack power somewhat and they are susceptible to hook punches. These can be adapted for as Qi La La has done. Despite Emin Boztepe not showing actual sparring, I really cannot recommend his lessons enough. He’s good. I have used them in sparring with good effect and I believe I have gleaned a sense of what Bruce Lee was doing when he departed from WC. I would love to chat with Rokas on the subject and I believe I can offer some insight.
@@kungpowchickenwing well only gloves would remove the elbow element to Wing Chun. Also the movements do have power, since they are very similar to any other martial art. Geometry is geometry 😂 And lastly about the hook: I think the idea is if you see a hook you munch the opponent in the face before the hook can land. Either that or you close the distance and go in for grappling or elbows. Punching before the hook lands would work because straight punches are faster than hooks, and it also creates distance--two things that the hook is weak with.
I trained Wong shun Leung Ving Tsun for 15yrs on and off, mostly under Alan Gibson in the UK, and then David Peterson and Darren Elvey in Melbourne Aus, and it was great, and they are really great teachers (they all have various vids online) - I must get back to training one day! We did a fair amount of pressure testing over the years, yes mainly against boxing skills, as boxers are tough opponents. If you dont know, the main element I loved was the touch sensitivity you learn through training, so your body learns to react by feel (once in contact), so you dont have to think so much, speeding up your reactions to what you feel. I too would agree there is a lot of poor WC out there... cheers
I definitely expected Wing Chun to show a few good vids. Qi La La is great. And that video you showed at the end was good, especially with that counter at the end. Have you received anything from Bujinkan yet?
Get in contact with Simon Yeo he’s on Instagram he’s a bujinkan black belt and Roger Gracie bjj black belt. Also Enson inoue comes from a bujinkan background.
100% great video. When I trained Wing Chun, we would often full contact spar, sometimes 3 or 4 onto 1 so that you learned through actual experience how to impliment your skills. We would use head guards, mouth guards, but unless you actually get hit, hard, you will never learn properly to use the techniques in a real-life situation. We would always put boxing gloves on for the last 20 mins of each session, and just box, to get used to hitting and being hit.
In MMA, there are some techniques that everyone seems to rediscover and talk about like it never existed before such as calf kicks, I think there are some really interesting kicks in karate that MMA fighters are never using and there are also some legends like khabib who can win without being a "striking" genius. So I think there will never be a universal verity in fighting, everyone, every body type and every style have their place
Yeah, that's why you have to add whatever fits you best to your style. But there ARE things that work and things that just don't. If you walk into an average Wing Chun you're not learning how to fight. If you walk into an average boxing gym though, you're probably learning how to fight (unless it's one of those fitness specific classes).
There will indeed probably never be a universal standard for fighting, but what the traditional martial artists often seem to forget when talking about MMA (not saying you’re guilty of this btw) is that its not a show where all types of different martial artists comes to show off their own individual style. All successful MMA practitioners trains MMA at an MMA gym sparring under MMA rules using techniques, concepts and tactics that are unique to MMA or fits the current MMA-meta in some way. So many people mistake MMA of being «grappler vs striker» or «TKD vs Wrestling» or something like that, when in reality its always MMA guy vs MMA guy. What those MMA guys have as a «backround» or do as auxiliary excersise on their free time is of course a factor but in this day and age far less important than the fact that they all learn how to fight at an MMA gym.
Kahbib wins because he understands violence. He is a different beast upstairs in the head. Nothing he does is fancy or really technical. He just understands what most martial artists don't. Constant forward pressure. He rarely defends. He is doing exactly what criminals do. Keeps coming on too of you never letting up and not caring what you are throwing. Martial artists play the tag game and mostly stand in one spot being afraid of what's coming. He just doesn't care.he keeps on the opponent until they are down and then keeps the pressure on. Is is in constant attack, constant offence that is backed by insane cardio and a mindset of a killer
Qi La La honestly revealed that his Wing Chun was 'self-taught' and it is really hard to say whether the skills that he has been applying so far is really Wing Chun.
Links to contributors:
1) Breakdown of Qi La La's fight on Fight Commentary Breakdowns: ua-cam.com/video/OVsJ5Cqy4iQ/v-deo.html
2) Marco's fight and channel: ua-cam.com/video/WmXzdc_ojjM/v-deo.html
3) Lion Martial Arts Academy: ua-cam.com/channels/KwgPhHDdPSdj9wQAaFk9KQ.html
Go do Judo Rokas,
Also, you can check out ..Allan orr, phillip bayer , emin boztepe, john lobb, gary lam. some of the best of the system !
Good video. But think about what Matt Thornton say about critical thinking, even though he pressured tested his Wing Chun, if you look at the Wing Chun competitions that were shown , the guys still looked like kick boxing. The point is practioneers claim there style is useful all by its self but yet resembles kick boxing or some type of bad grappling once its pressure tested . Again why train something that you claim your not doing but is forced to conform to it when it is fully resistant?? They say they are doing Wing Chun or Kung Fu but in full competition they still look like wild kick boxing. My point is if your going to look like kickboxing then why not just learn it and leave the Wing Chun and Kung Fu alone especiallywhen they don't look like it under pressure??? your looking like the same thing you say your not doing?? Critical thinking. These guys would never make it in the UFC ,it would be a bad beating for television. Why??? Because you can not use Wing Chun and Kung Fu all by its self ,you need functional kickboxing, clinch and ground to survive to keep some one off of you. Some one who is an amateur version of Amanda Nunes in the UFC would dump one of them Kung Fu practioneers on their head thats the truth. It would not be a good look for the martial arts. My advice train what you resemble in full resistance which is kickboxing, clinch and ground. Thats what Bruce lee talked about 45 years ago meaning stop being bound by limitations or styles.
look up ERIC DUBAY Wing Chun practitioner
Where’s a video of WC working in self defense? I’ve seen MANY where boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo etc work.
Why only sport styles?
WC is the worst for self defense. It doesn’t allow for FORWARD PRESSURE.
When I sparred this Tennessee titans nfl lineman I can own him boxing. But in a real fight he’d come in throwing ala tank abbot in early ufc.
When a stronger person attacks u (and that’s who do on the street) it’s nothing like sparring.
It’s the antithesis of WC.
Sure WC can work. I trained a ufc fighter that used it in sparring all the time against guys that suck.
I use it when I spar my wife who’s a pro mma fighter but 120 and a girl. As a goof.
But it sure as hell isn’t the best way
I'll never forget what my karate teacher used to tell me when I asked what are the techniques that work : "Everything works, provided that you train to make it work."
I have a slightly different view …. Every technique works, just not for you. That’s why a true master isn’t someone that imitates their teachers and perfects their chosen style, but instead becomes their own master of their own style
@@MaxDerp Yeah. Kamehamehas also don't work. Scoop. You shouldn't skip the "train to make it work"' part.
Train to make the possible perfect not the probable possible.
@Dan James yeh dude, I can't remember where I heard it but it stuck with me. My journey has lead me personally to find that martial arts training goes hand in hand with pragmatism.
@Dan James … go for it my friend. Martial Arts is a personal journey just like every fight is a personal fight. It will never be the same for any individual
This is what I've felt for a long time. It's not that martial arts are useless, it's that so many martial artists quite simply never train to actually fight. They don't spar, they don't ever do any training that would prepare them for an actual fight. It makes me appreciate how my Taekwondo instructor would teach us actual practical training along with our normal training. He was big into MMA and even encouraged us to go beyond just Taekwondo. He even taught us some grappling and ground fighting he learned doing MMA.
I really hope my next Taekwondo course'll teach me sparring and actual fighting alongside. Got to green belt in my previous course w/o sparring at all, which is pretty sad
Taekwondo makes a good base for different types kicking including kick in the mid air if some one caught your legs .But studying boxing alone will make you useless if you opponent uses long leg kicks alone .So first taekwondo lessons then going for kickboxing or muaythai then going for bjj makes you a great fighter
You can also improve your punching , dodging , footwork by practicing boxing .But you should go for boxing only after practicing leg kicking other wise you can't use it in a real fight
@@BARCH-wp5vl So you are saying you can't use boxing in a real fight without leg kicks?
chinese martial arts are derived from weapon techniques and it has been losing its practicality in fighting throughout the years
I remember sparring a guy in his 50s who did Wing Chun and actually sparred. I was at a pretty good level with my Taekwondo at that point, but I absolutely got destroyed by this dude, because the weakness of Taekwondo is that when you get close to your opponent, you have no idea what you're doing, and coincidentally, that's where Wing Chun thrives
true, i quit taekwondo because one i was getting bored of it and two i realized that taekwondo by it self wasnt a really good martial arts or a really good way to defend your self
I did Taekwondo, it is absolutely useless against anyone that knows how to throw a punch. Learned that the hard way lmao, started boxing instead
Wingchun is garbage. Whole style revolves around the center and completely disregards angles like hooks
@@ballislife9092 that's because only few instructors understand these principles. Thus they teach them wrong. I practiced wing chun when I was young with an instructor who liked sparring (he came from kickboxing I guess that is why) and I could use wing chun. Also, chain punching is misunderstood too. But it's another topic.
@@example6978 I did boxing, it is absolutely useless against anyone that knows how to throw a kick. Started TKD instead. Now, reflect on your bias and how it is down to the practitioner, not the style.
Great video, Rokas! Glad to be part of it!! Marco's videos have been shared with me too, so I will definitely feature him eventually too! I'll share this with Qi La La now!
Hi there! Thanks for considering my fights for your commentary. I would be happy to answer questions you may have.
@@BlinderUhrmacher also, were you the one to send me those fights? I get so many emails, so I sometimes get lost with all the emails. Thanks for understanding!
@@FightCommentary it wasn't me. Probably somebody from my lineage thou. We are not that well known.
@@BlinderUhrmacher cool! Are you on IG? Let's connect there if you have IG. I"m the same name on there.
Awesome! Thank you again Jerry
Your honesty never ceases to amaze me, Rokas! I'm yet to meet someone who really intends to get to the bottom of these discussions as you do. Hats off to you, man! Much respect!
Thank you Pablo... 😊🙏
I'm a wing chun student myself and I started out with karate when I was 5. I'm 29 now and all
I really have to say about a lot of martial arts is that it all comes down to the person learning and then applying it to different situations. I believe practicing most legitimate martial arts creates a sound mind and is a great way to ultimately deescalate most situations. A lot of people practice martial arts and then find themselves freezing up if an altercation actually does occur. Having a sound mind and trying to deescalate situations in the first place is the best route to go. Ego is a big problem for a lot of people though. That and fear. I've been in a few fights... My first one, I was like "oh shit, I'm in a fight!" and the last 2 I was like, "well, I'm in a fight now, I'll do my very best to get out of this situation as quickly and effectively as I can". Big difference. People need to learn humiliation and quit ragging on other people's martial arts in general. It all mostly comes down to the individual themselves and a part of it is the art practiced. After all, a weapon isn't a part of an individual, it's an extension. In any martial art though, run from the knife always. Charge the gun.
How often do wing Chun guys spar with boxers and brawlers? The art seems better fit for casual, relaxed exhibition displays
@@manher4335 In my lineage we always train and spar using realistic scenarios such as using hook punches, headlocks, rear naked chokes, sporadic attacks from different angles and we do ground work etc. We actually do punch each other too. Hard. We focus on forearm bone conditioning as well to make our arms dense and hard a lot like how Muay Thai practitioners condition their shins. In a way it's one of the dirtiest fighting styles there is because of the big emphasis at lunging fingers (eye gouging), groin kicks and throat and diaphragm shots as well as a lot of elbow strikes. There are a few actual boxers in my class too and we have really good boxing programs in Louisville Ky also. After all, Muhammed Ali was from here... It's literally meant for street fighting though and not meant as a sport for the ring or a cage. It's all about ending shit as quick as possible however possible.
@@kaseyking8514 Hmmm interesting. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten me. Appreciate it
For my martial arts training i use the cobra kai mantras : fear does not exist in this dojo. - pain does not exist in this dojo. -defeat does not exist in this dojo.
I know it sounds funny and it is a movie but having such a mindset is great thing to have, for any martial arts you practise🥋⛩️☯️🇯🇵🥊
@@dylan_krishna_777 Yeah for sure. I actually like how every martial art has its strengths and weaknesses. Probably not the very best reference but I like how in Cobra Kai, Johnny says to punch through the head like the guy you really wanna punch is standing behind this asshole. If it hits its devastating but if not you'll possibly wind up punching something you really don't want to like a brick wall or end up like Kreese punching through car windows lol.
Super glad you talked to Jerry. Also, the "Canadian Geometry" saying has roots in a statement made by one of the Machado brothers. He said that if an armlock is used by a Japanese jujutsu practitioner is different, varied, or the same as a Greek pancration armbar....and it works.....it's just grappling...and should be used by all grapplers in their system regardless of origin.... because it works. No matter what your system or style is, you have to adapt. Your outcome in conflict should matter more than your adherence to style
Love it
I know a BJJ black belt under Demian Maia. He got skeptical when a well-known koryu Jujutsu teacher said in a magazine that old-style Jujutsu locks are more destructive than those of BJJ. So my friend went to meet him, tried it out and agreed. He now trains Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu under him.
So why was the armlock in question more destructive? Simply for the fact that it was not designed to be safely released if you try tap out of it. Pull the joint lock through the technique as intended, the arm snaps in half. The reason for that is very simple: it's a tactical military technique, designed for medieval warfare, not something you do when rolling with your BJJ buddies on a Saturday open mat session in 2021. So in a way there ARE different types of techniques, not necessarily by national or stylistic differences (although those flavours exist in a way as well), but more in terms of their intended use: sports, performance arts, security, civilian protection, military, etc.
@@Veepee92 of course we train differently for different situations. Certain moves are forbidden in sparring for safety reasons I'm sure. Point being....take those armlocks and adapt them bin to your game...for self defense purposes of course. The point was that grappling is grappling despite the many names and countries attached to a technique.
I see your point though. That would be the smart thing to do...to adapt those techniques.
@@fletchkeilman2205 While I agree, in the particular example that I gave there isn't necessarily any good reason to adapt an inherently damaging technique for sport purposes. BJJ has independently invented and developed a swath of techniques that have never in history existed before, because they had a unique historical situation of gi-based submission grappling. Those new BJJ techniques probably work better in BJJ than the old Koryu ones ever could.
But in a more general note, it's a good thing to mix'n'match traditions and approaches when they have mutual overlap. So in a way there isn't even a real argument, just the idea that you should be smart how and why you want to put things together.
@@Veepee92 Agreed. I was pointing it out in a way that I would think it would be common sense for anyone to think said techniques would be a great addition for sport. What I mean is, I'm automatically assuming the practitioner would understand the difference and practice said techniques accordingly. You hit it on the nosey, my friend.
Also...and I am probably going to save this for a time when I can spend about an hour typing ...I wanted to point out that the way we fight changes drastically through time, cultures, borders, etc. While we now realize simplistic approaches to fighting tend to be the best, that does not mean everyone who was a highly skilled fighter eventually fought the same way. No matter how we look at it, there always have been fixed patterns that fighters have used through the ages, and they don't always look alike (and they don't always "translate" well once across certain borders). I guess what I'm getting at is kung fu worked for Kung Fu people (in the past...for example, boxers in the age of the Boxer's Rebellion) because that is what people there perceived as combat. So Kung Fu was effective for those surviving using those tools and during those dynasties. Of course, like anything, it changed and developed, but my point here is that the Art's relevancy was high, given it's place in time......and before the rifle was put in front of them.
Sorry. I hope you understand my point a bit. I just had to type that because I think there is more to "what works use and disregard the rest" notion then we tend to discuss this approach. We almost seem to come to the conclusion that none of these ever arts worked at all, and it is only martial arts that we currently train that will ever be effective. Did I get that out right? I swear I'm not cognitively challenged.
"What works, works," ABSOLUTELY!
That’s not true. Every martial art or fighting style works and every martial art or fighting style doesn’t work.
@@johnboyjordan1915 “...and be trained in a mediocre club with no live sparring, and so not work.” The grammar is off, could you explain what you were trying to say haha. And btw I agree with you. Every martial art or fighting style can work, and every martial art or fighting style won’t work.
Trueeeeeeee
You ain't never lied!
Good stuff.. Yeah this Prove to me question being posed is understandable for tge inquirer but is kinda ofgrnsive to the one who knows it works and is minding their own business.
Like thrle comment in the video about out dated WC Wong Shun Leung clip.. It is sen as out dated and not effective by the one who does not know what is effective and useful about it. Wong Shun Leung, in this scenerio, was called the King of talking hands.. Meaning he is likely not using some technique/ practice/ drill that could ever be considered out dated.
Very interesting video. As a Wing Chun learner, I'm sad that so many schools don't properly spar. Guess I'm lucky to have found the teacher I have lol
just join an mma gym and spar there, otherwise you're probably just learning bullshito
@@meginna8354 My Wing Chun teacher straight up recommended boxing
@Avery Chance Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth
@Avery Chance Thats why you lowkick.
Issou
"Fancy shit works if you can back it up with solid skills" -Icy Mike (paraphrased)
I would add, "ignore the basics at your own peril".
Basics are, key in anything, all the best guys in any martial art lend bits from other stuff in my opinion anyway.
«Anything can work if you already know how to fight» - Ramsey Dewey (paraphrased)
@@vinslungur no. Knowing how to fight involves knowing how to get into positions to use your style in the best way possible. Today most practitioners of martial arts do it for recreation. More like glorified gymnastic classes. That is the reason why they fail.
And their style gets all the blame.
Fancy stuff is usually there for a very specific need. If you remove the specific reason than the technique will not make as much sense.
this was pretty interesting, first time I see a wing chun guy use his style so well in practical application. I guess the problem really is the inadequate training methods, more sparring needed for most schools.
My Wing Chun school sparred without gloves. Low speed, med speed, and full speed and power.
Lots of other schools called us barbaric. I was like...at least we can fight. I got kneed in my solar plexus in a fight test once...whew that sucked. I got kneed in the head fighting a black belt too...he wasn't trying to but he clipped me and I was down lol.
Real sparring teaches you what works and what doesn't.
Where did he use his Wing Chun style? He boxed and used Muy Thai, lmao!
@@stephencarlsbad lol knee are not exclusive to thaï it Can be in karaté and so on X)
@@FH-cn3mgBS. You guys don't knee eachother.
@@poorchristopher15 I was fighting someone who wasn't using Wing Chun...so yeah I got kneed in the Solar Plexus. In our fight tests our opponents were allowed to use anything they knew. The person being tested was to use their WC skills only though. Sorry to pull the wind put of your sails pal.
Agree with this for sure, I did get some good skills from Wing Chun in terms of some techniques but we never sparred really. It did help me in my next martial art though but I feel what I do now is a lot more realistic. Good to see Wing Chun if trained the right way can deliver results.
What style you doin now?
Qi La La is from Taiwan which I am as well. He practices not only Wing Chung but some internal systems(內家拳) too. What most impresses people is that he started martial art at his mid 30's.
And has a full time job and smokes and drinks. He fights professionals,win or loose he goes the distance.
He actually started at 28 according to Jerry. (Fight Commentary Breakdowns)
Edit: XI YI is an internal art that he knows, but that's about it beside his wing chun and tong bei.
@@toyoseries interesting. Hehe. I've thought of training many years ago, back when Kimbo was still alive, and he was training at the gym across from the university my parents worked at, FIU. I was born and raised in infamous Miami, FL, USA, and happily live abroad from all three of those places now.
@@charlesbetancourt7337 alKILLhol and cigarDEATHS. O.o
This reinforces what I’ve long believed - that traditional MAs aren’t technically flawed or anything but they frequently are poorly trained and poorly understood, even by instructors in those arts. That’s been my experience.
Unfortunately, this is what happens when you go multiple generations of instructors who have never needed to actually use what they teach. I suspect that bringing Chinese martial arts in particular to their former glory is going to involve a lot of effort, with instructors actively working to rediscover which aspects of their art they can actually make work in which situations.
What people need to remember is that techniques in forms are typically exaggerated motions to teach the concepts, while in practice they're most likely going to look like "bad kick boxing", as it looks very similar to what a kick boxer would expect to see, but not identical. As an example, the reason that tan tui has you swing one fist down and behind you while you step and punch with the other isn't that you're supposed to have a fist behind you when you punch, it's to help a complete beginner get used to stepping forward while keeping their head at the same level.
@@Parker8752 That's kind of my understanding, that the application of techniques could look very different from the "classical presentation" you see in forms. Besides being generally less exageratted - where the form might have a high kick, the application could be low, or you might step backward in the form but forward in application, etc. In addition, I suspect they don't spend enough time training with the people they will compete against. It's one thing to have a fellow student play the role of a boxer, as one example, but that's not the same as actually training with a high level boxer and figuring out how things work in that environment. TMAs probably also lack the collective wisdom and experience other groups have in training people to be effective in a sporting arena.
Why ? If you actually think about are those techniques you learn actually what is effective in fights ? Or does it turn into Muay Thai or kickboxing with a slightly different stance ? Why then waste your time learning all those useless techniques?
@@JayzsMr To use the Tan Tui example I gave earlier, the point is to have something that you can practice on your own, with no equipment, that will improve your body mechanics. The exaggerated motion in the form is to help you learn how to move your whole body - again, the arm that's swinging down and back is to help you practice stepping forward without raising your head.
Each form in traditional CMA has a purpose, and that purpose isn't always just to impart techniques. Some are to aid with developing stamina, while others are to aid with developing footwork. When you get right down to it, a jab is a jab, a cross is a cross, and a leg kick is a leg kick. The difference is in how you learn to use them and what role they play in your overall fighting strategy.
@@Parker8752 that's why you see so many UFC champions with years of only training traditional martial arts , right ?
I came here the first time and im back again. Im glad you made this video about Wing Chun. I believe it's functional, but there are some feuds between schools that are just the worst. It's good to see my martial art be vindicated in your eyes and im glad you are doing this awesome content.
That's basically what Bruce Lee said--" When you understand , a kick is a kick, a punch is a punch"...
Yep, it's just the subtleties that change from art to art.
Yes
It's not true though, is it? I mean, it's patently not true - hence why this 'There's no Canadian geometry' metaphor doesn't work. A karate punch is not a boxing punch. But I wouldn't want to stand there and let either a pro boxer or a legit Okinawan karate master punch me in the chops.
@@PooleAcademyofWingChun Well, in reality, we don't.
@@ScottGarrettDrums Not really though - the difference between a boxing punch and a karate punch aren't subtle. Moreover, there's a lot more involved than the mechanics of the punch - there's context of use, considerations of defence, historical context ect. None of which could really be called 'subtle differences'.
As a wing chun practitioner, I'm glad that most of them agree with your points. A significant chunk of wing chun schools are not good. The best ones always have cross training elements and sparring
Or just go learn from ip man son ip chun XD
or learn from jackie chan when he beating the wooden chummy from the movie or learn from donnie yen himself XD
Yes i trained wing chun that croses with boxing
@@Eldrygg that's a naive point of view. Constantly sparring against wing chun will never prepare you for tactics from other arts like karate or bjj. Even if you don't train those arts, test yourself against them
I train wrestling. Yes that of mma and olympic. which is well known for being practical.
The thing is, I've never able to use those practical moves in my first sparring because the 'situation' for the move was never easily given. It was same with the bjj and striking when I learned. sparring is what make everything practical, and that's why it is called practice
winchun is a concept based martial art not a striking so one you learn siu nim tao and done some chi sao i urge creative interpretations
Honestly, I am not MMA and Martial Artist. My relatives is. Your explanation about how Marco and Qi La La (the Chinese MMA Wingchun, sorry if I type it wrong) do pressure test and asking for tips from the other fighter different from Wing Chun is totally right.
Yours makes me remember how my relatives often told me that She, the other student, and her teacher sometimes went to different martial art dojos to do some exchange. She was in Pencak Silat.
They went to Karate, Tae Kwon Do, or other different style to do sparring and exchanging tips for practical use.
Thank you for explaining this.
Hope you find what you really need Sir.
Have a nice and safe journey
Absolutely! Not all martial arts training is effective for combat. They can still have value but they should not be confused for combat arts.
and we are hearing this from ninja kidz tv
Yeah, as value Tai chi has a lot, just that fighting...Well not that much in MOST cases.
wing chun is 100% effective mr ninja
While I agree that traditional arts do have value, whether it be for personal fitness/cultural appreciation/etc, it is worth noting that, at that point, they can’t really be classed as ‘MARTIAL’ arts. A ‘martial’ art is exactly that - a ‘warlike’ art, meant for combat. If these ‘styles’ have little to no combat application, can they really be classed as martial arts?
@@ck3082 no it's not even wushu sanda fighters think it is b.s and heavily rely on borrowing techniques from thai and japanese arts
Chi Sao, sticky hands is about training your touch sensitivity and reflex. It's not a fighting technique, it trains you to fight by touch alone and how to move once contact is established.
Exactly.
True cause chi sao itself would only work against another wing chun user since chi sao isnt catching a jab into a trap as much as I wish it could at least lap sao exists so I guess it's something but I cant really call it a trap since it's more of a grappling setup for a most likely finisher
@@dr.dylansgame5583 There are some who have been tested adding mantis to wing chun, letting you at any point go into mantis locks and throws.
I'm by no means an expert, but it seems they compliment each other quite well.
I will just add, that in a clinch and on the floor, Chi Sao made me conquer opponents way quicker. I am doing Wing Chun since 2010, and I have to say. Putting stuff to the test is what makes it useful.
we never thought that Chi Sao is sparing we use no protective gear to spar so not sure what school he may have looked at
I really appreciate this video, there’s a big problem in WC with the lack of hard sparring and pressure testing. I believe that WC has a lot to offer MMA and other combat sports. I think WC needs to develop its own full contact fighting rules/format that can help to cultivate real WC fighters who could transition to MMA
You have a great channel! You have SAVED many people from wasting time, and HELPED many people discover truth. Thank you.
🙏
Really glad you pointed out the "Wing Chun" aspects of the style. Too many people focus on singular techniques instead of the system as a whole, and how the guard stance influences the footwork influences the punching influences the clinching etc.
After practicing Karate, Tae kwon Do and Bujinkan Ninjutsu, Wing Chun is actually the martial art that I want to settle on. Not wanting to compete or anything like that, but I love the spiritual, and physical aspect of it, and being not completely useless in self defence is only a major bonus.
Is Bujinkan a legit martial art?
@@mgabor6936 Yes. but there are no competition. it's... like a traditional mma?
@@mgabor6936 No
I'm relieved that you actually found stuff about Wing Chun on the internet. I was trying to figure out how to make one of my own. A lot of people shit on it a lot but then praise Bruce Lee who practiced it along with other arts. I was on that part of my journey when I was 14 when I thought that Wing Chun was the best and Karate sucked and I was ignorant about it and spreading hate like I knew. I didn't think I needed to spar even when my Sifu insisted. But when him and the MMA instructor decided to do a cross spar for a couple days, I realized that I was really good at fighting people within the same art, but I'm just ok compared someone who spars all the time. Then I realized that it's good to cross train and spar. And the instructors made sure that if we had any ego that it was wiped away. I realised Wing Chun wasn't the best art, it was just the best for me, it felt natural to me and that's what any martial artist should strive for. Find something that fits you and that you enjoy but kerp an open mind that, it's not the same for everyone. From that day on when it came time to do drills, I would tell my partner to really try to hit me and sometimes tell them to come at me like a boxer would. If you practice with just one art, then you only know how to fight again that one art. I had to get literally punched in the face (and more) to learn that. I still strictly practice Wing Chun but I open my mind to the rest of the world and incorporate it into my style. My Sifu tried to teach me something that sometimes can't be taught with words. This is my journey, and I hope that it helps with yours.
Bro/sis I'm literally going through the same thing I practice Wing Tsjun and karate and I've always felt that karate is pretty basic compared to Wing Tsjun but when sparring in karate I realise that if I were to implement a Wing Tsjun technique or punches it might not work in that situation. I usually end up getting beaten when going against Karate brown belts since I'm not a brown belt yet but it really broadens your perspective of martial arts and sparring. I agree with what you said it's good to train in and practice several styles over several years rather than sticking to only one style in order to gain an understanding of fighting techniques from the full spectrum of martial arts and it's also important to spar often. I've also seen a lot of people shitting on Wing Chun even in this comment section it's pretty frustrating that they underestimate a powerful martial art.
@@e.d.rarendyag7firnen28 don't waste your time. Even from those videos it is obvious than wing chun conditioning only hinders them. Boxing and MMA are the 2 best martial arts there. MMA even has it in its name - for the moment it is most complete, universal and practical MA there is. If you just like WC, sure, do it, just don't fool yourself thinking it is a real fighting system. It is not, at best it is a health excercise.
And if you wondering i did WC myself. And o boi i regret it. "Masters" even admitted that they just scammed money when i started questioning everything. I even got banned on WC federation forum for questioning lack of sparring lmao.
WC is not best for you. It is just the only thing you really practiced, and it being really different and rare from anything else adds to its attractivness. Just give it a few months of MMA or boxing and you will forget WC like a bad fevered dream.
@@SwordWieldingDuck That's your dojo, every dojo is different. Just like any martial art, there are frauds and there are ones just for health, there are ones only for competition, and there are ones that teach you practical applications. I work Security and wingchun helped me protect myself a lot of times. MMA is a mix of martial arts correct? In our school next door to us there is an mma class ghat incorporates wingchun in it along with silat, kali, kuntao, BJJ and some others. Mma isn't it's oen style its a mixure or a melting pot of styles. Saying MMA and boxing are the best is like saying "I like my cheeseburgers with cheese" that's nice. Just look at your mma and see what arts are mixed in it, its not just one thing.
@@SwordWieldingDuck But it is, the movement of the style fits well with my personality and mindset. It's similar to taoist beliefs which is also my kind of mindset. It works for me and I feel like myself since I first started it. You like boxing, good for you. Just fucking do it and stop telling people their art is a waste of time. We all have preferences, I tried boxing, I feel like it sucks because you can't use your feet but that's my opinion. I know it works I've seen it, but it just wasn't for me so I stopped it and found something right for me. Yeah mma is great, but gyms who only practice that tend to be ignorant at times and for get what mma really means. That can happen with any art though. It's pretty sad how people in such a diverse art can be so prejudice.
I definitely agree with you. When I started studying TKD in the 80's, we were taught to condition the body, we had sparring and our strikes were to connect under pressure training. I was knocked out once during such training from a back fist to my temple which followed through his rear spinning kick which I avoided. Shame I didn't see his follow through. I didn't see it or feel it. I woke up on the floor. And that KO taught me better.
Dont compare TKD to this scam . At least TKD is applicable in real life situation.. unlike this wingscam..
@@JmbutPetal Calm the farm. The agreement is about needing to pressure test what you learn to see if what you're learning works.
@@TheNakedWombat yes.. it wont work.. that is why Bruce Lee . Out of respect to his teacher.. said "modify it"
You misinterpreted the reason why he changed his style. He never fully mastered Wing Chun, in fact, he wasn’t even great at it either. If I recall correctly I think it was the fight between Bruce Lee and Wong Jack Man that made him realize his aggressive nature just didn’t work well with Wing Chun, he still kept some principles that aligned with him, but of course he would go on to create Jeet Kune Do to fit his mindset. Although, honestly, you’re probably right about scams, the more popular the Kung Fu style, the more likely it’s an instructor that has learned their art with the intention of just teaching it for money, never pressured tested themselves to actually use what they know. Check out lesser known styles and it’ll be easier to find legitimacy.
@@JmbutPetal You haven't seen those Russians using some Wing Chun techniques in some Russian MMAs. LOL In Russia, they call it "Wu Shu" which is the Mandarin of "Kung fu". Keep watching UFC and you don't know how big this world is. Sure BJJ beats some wrestling kids in the US. Have you seen any of them beating any strong wrestlers in the Middle East and Russia? LOL Your world is too small, pal.
The main thing that is missing in a lot of scenarios is testing the martial art against actual pressure. It's not that the martial arts are "useless" it's that they aren't trained against actual pressure testing, sparring and resistance. If you actually train to fight and against actual resistance it can help you figure out ways to use some of those techniques and principles in an actual fight. You find what works, what doesn't work and what techniques could actually be applied.
One of the best aspects is that he considered BJJ essential in MMA, but he still utilizes the effective strikes he learned from Wing Chun and Kung Fu and applies them to combat sports because he actually TRAINS THEM in combat sports and against actual resistance and utilizes what techniques and principles work in a real fight and not spending time on what doesn't. It's pretty great to see.
Hi Rokas, I am a 67yr old guy who has been training martial arts consistently since I was 16. I did wing chun for 15yrs, TKD reaching 3rd dan and now train in Shotokan I have only had to defend myself once when a guy attacked me in the street. He ran at me with his right fist clenched and threw a right hook at me. Without thinking I reacted with Wing Chun, stepping into him whilst blocking with a left hand tan sau at the same time throwing a right hand punch (With an upward twist at the end of the punch, a technique Joseph Cheng taught me that I have never seen in other W,.C, schools). It worked, I knocked him out. Incidentally, an 8th dan TKD master once told me that all martial arts are 90% the same, the 10% differences are the techniques of the individual art, the 90% sameness is relaxation and breathing and I get that!
Wow I respect you for having devoted a huge portion of your life to learning and mastering martial arts and even better studying Wing Chun under Joseph Chen.
It is a blatant lie. To see how actually different MAs are it is enough to compare WC with BJJ. They have literally nothing in common. Also, all 3 MAs you practiced pretty much qualify as being bullshidos. Even in your prime all your 15 years of training you would stand no chance against a fresh boxer who practiced only for 2-3 years.
@@SwordWieldingDuck we don't know this guy, but he claims he is 67 and only had to get in a fight once where the attacker clearly was enraged. Not he was claiming wing Chun was the best. Just because it worked there, doesn't mean it'd work everywhere else but no need to get worked up about it.
@@SwordWieldingDuck Yeah yeah everything is B.S. Ameridote is the only true martial art .
@@Roper122 you're damn right. Grab them by the groin.
loved the blurred cameo by Master Wong
I dont think Master Wong has ever been in a fight
@@kingkazuma2239 WONG Sir! He has incredible understanding of how to use a stroller against a random attacker! MOST IMPRESSIVE. 🤣
In de correct podishun
Roka you are still remarkable young man. Continue on your journey to enlightenment.
Jerry of Fight Commentary Breakdowns is really blowing up this week. People are mentioning him heavy left and right! :D
Who else is mentioning him?
Be formless my friend.
Be like water, my friend.
Most people who say that stand there like Wing Chun fighters. lmao
@@vandamme6379
Most people who say, “Everything’s gonna work out in the end,” tend to (seemingly) take it to mean all on its own whether you take action or not, taking it to imply that there isn’t much of a point unless you see a strong reason or something. Just because many people misinterpret a piece of wisdom that they think they understand, or perhaps do understand at some level yet are still struggling to apply more broadly because they still have some deeper realizations to make (which naturally takes time) doesn’t necessarily discount the value of the saying itself
That being said, when something becomes more broadly misunderstood than understood, it’s usually worth getting away from and restating it in a new way that’s more likely to be more immediately understood as much as possible (unless in a context where the aim is to have someone grapple with an idea for a while and figure it out for themselves, of which there can be quite a few, but typically not as a publicly mass-cited aphorism)
As a slogan by S.W.A.T. "Situation Dictates". Adapt and overcome.
Ah yes, Kanoh Agito
Most honest review I've seen 👊
Speaking of Wing Chun, I used some trapping in my sparring and it actually worked. Not full trapping though. Just basic trapping and then right back to kickboxing
That's exactly how it's supposed to be used man. nice work. the whole trap and hold is bs
When I came from Wing Chun and had my first sparring with an MMA guy I noticed trapping is fantastic for offensive purposes (opening the guard etc.), but sucks when it comes to defense. It definitely has it’s place when used properly.
My trainer mixed WC with moves from traditional kickboxing and Indonesian boxing and it proved quiet effective. Still calls it Wing Chun for some reason lmao.
I just started Boxing and I reflexivly try to roll my ellbow over my oponents parry. Really annoying because it doesnt work and because it exposes my bad wingchun conditioning.
That's what happens when you actually spar. You throw out the rest and keep what works.
It's interesting, Wing Chun's front kick (its most used kick) is really similar to a teep kick. And there's clinchwork (which can also be found in the wooden dummy form). Trapping, on the otherhand, is not really the focus of WC as many think. When "trapping" happens it's to remove an obstacle in the way of a punch to the face, not to wrap up someone's arms for a minute or whatever
Imagine calling yourself a martial artist, but dont know the meaning of sparring
@@nr1NPC are you saying this about my comment, or about how 90% of WC practitioners don't spar?
there is no such thing as a 'wing chun front kick' lol
@@SonsOfDeForest what are you talking about? That's the main kick in wing chun
@@AndrewLinArchives its basic kick that doesn't belong to a particular martial art. unless you think King Leonidas practiced wing chun?
You’re inspirational man. Your bravery to do what you’re doing now after Aikido makes you a hero in my book.
Interesting topic.
When I practiced Wing Chun, I could see why our sifu did not allow sparring. We were taught fights were dangerous, anything could happen. He said, Try not to get into a fight, but if you do, get out of it as quickly as possible.
As a result, we were taught to incapacitate our opponent with strikes to the eyes, solar plexus, groin, etc. If that’s your goal, kind of hard to spar.
Chi sau did pay off for me. I have been victorious in several street fights. What amazed me was how automatic the moves came to me. It was just like that Karate Kid movie. In one, a guy threw a punch. I blocked it automatically and was mesmerized at my reflexes. What I had failed to notice was that as I blocked the punch, I simultaneously punched the guy in the face. I looked over and he was on the ground.
So the practice has its value.
However, years later when I wished once again to study wing chun, I wanted sparring. I agree with you that there is no substitute for actual fighting.
I could not find a wc school with sparring. The schools that I did find were so wrapped up in tradition that they appeared almost cult like (I’m sure not every school is like that, but the ones in my geographic region were).
I ended up taking a karate class with my kid. Lots of sparring. Not only did the sparring help me acclimate to somewhat real fighting situations, but it also helped me adjust to my own body movements and speed during a fight.
Of course, Bruce Lee had his own criticisms of Wing chun. I think anyone learning to fight should be schooled on punching, kicking and grappling from whichever school they can. And sparring is a must.
I’m sure a lot of WC schools out there spar. The Yip Man lineage was the most popular and common, Yip Man’s students basically built their reputation on rooftop sparring against other schools in Hong Kong. My lineage is an obscure village style of WC and we spar.
When a wing chun person says too dangerous for sparring, I roll my eyes. Practitioners back in the day fought on the roof tops of Hong Kong everyday. That's how various different kungfu schools hung out.
“Too dangerous for sparring” simply means “I know I can’t actually fight and I want to save face”.
@@haircutdeluxe true I spar with wing chun with my dudes all the time I just dont use the dirty stuff like bi jui eye jab or a straight ball kick or the foot stomp that stuff is only for a real fight just practice it and learn how to fake using it in a real spar and make sure its strong when you need and you will be fine since a eye poke and ball kick are easy a foot stomp is a little harder to land but a lot of people simply dont expect it which is a plus to it
My friends when your natural instinct is to hit neck straight to kill and so on, sparring can sometimes be dangerous, if you do not spar with right gear. When they say Wing Chun sparring can be deadly they mean some people can lose control and do terrible stuff. I hurted my friends before with rubber weapons when I got too much into fight and went for win at all cost mode, with gloves also. But we did not had any proctective gear except of gloves at all and that really can be a problem with some individuals. Think about it this way. There really is a problem for some, but it can be solved with a right gear, that is what I think. So when they say too gangerous for sparring, it is excuse for not solving the problem.
Without sparring there is no real world application of the techniques and you are sending students out in the world to fail.
Many techniques aren't even allowed in UFC, Pride, etc. UFC and whatever aren't true fighting, as there are rules. On the street, rules don't apply.
Which martial art is effective against multiple gunmen with Uzis or the like?
Fun fact: Qi Lala is a practitioner of Wong Shun Leung Wing Chun and in some of the clips of the traditionalist displays of skill you've shown (including the very first one) Wong Shun Leung himself was the demonstrator. I totally get your point but I found it kind of funny too.
"there is no Canadian geometry"
That's a great saying, I'm definitely gonna use that!!!
The feels like a next chapter in Martial Arts Journey.
This feels like a more into true critical thinking. Before it felt more like a replacement of Aikido with BJJ & MMA. Now it feels like you are actually why and not what ie why a style or system works/doesn't work and what would happen if it adjustments were made.
Gotta second this.
As a wing chun practitioner who started out as a boxer and has dabbled in other styles (Krav, Jujutsu, couple other things here and there), this was an excellent and well thought out video. I'm not used to seeing this kind of analysis from the mma community, truth be told.
Wish I'd seen the post on r/wingchun, I'd have loved to contribute footage. So many wing Chun schools in the west don't spar, don't pressure test. I'm a huge proponent of both, thanks to my Sifu and my kung fu brothers.
Pre-plague, I ran a sparring meet up in conjunction with a local kenpo school for exactly that reason; folks from all styles in the region could come together and touch hands, exposing themselves to new styles and types of pressure.
I've gotten to spar with so many styles thanks to that and it really improved my Wing Chun. I once spent a day rolling around on the floor with a bjj guy exploring sensitivity and structure in the context of a ground fight. I once took a muy Thai knee right in the solar plexus (ooowwww) and spent the rest of the day working with him on clinch fighting. (Props to him for not being afraid to nail a girl in the gut.)
Sparring and real pressure were always a key component of Wing Chun training and it makes me sad that it's fallen away over the last 50 years or so. I'm hoping more folks take critiques like this into account and bring it back in.
Respect, dude.
@@ISZAudio but question stands - why even bother with WC at all? It has nothing, even theoretically over MMA and boxing.
@@SwordWieldingDuck well clearly I've found something if I prefer it over my previous boxing, Krav, and Jujutsu training right?
Granted, I'm a woman, so ymmv. There's no one best style, train whatever is best for your specific body type and how your body prefers moving.
@Kommisar sparring was always integral to Wing Chun. Just because we don't have nice tournaments with medals and whatnot doesn't mean we don't spar. Tkd has fancy tournaments. I wouldn't exactly call most Tkd combat effective.
And yes, I'm well aware of how early UFC was essentially an infomercial for the Gracies. They picked the lineup and told the announcers what to say. It's amazing how many people don't know that. It was designed from the first match to make Gracie jiu-jitsu look good (which it did. And I don't think anyone's arguing that it's not incredibly effective in specific scenarios. Best martial art though? No such thing. Not bjj. Not Wing Chun. Not boxing. Not karate. Not Krav. There's no single best martial art.)
I started to practice wing chun 2 weeks ago
Now I'm glad to see that the Sifu keep the focus in sparring. While in one side of the room we are practicing the basic movements, in the other side, are two guys slamming each others face and bringing the fight to the floor
Newsflash: A Hard Punch To The Face Works!
You may need a lot of the hard punches on the face to get someone down, and remember that after the first punch, the other one miiiiight want to hit you back
You may need a lot of technique and experience to be able to hit a good hard punch to the face.
For Wing Chun it's the elbows that deliver the power, though, and not even Muay Thai practitioners spar in a medium or heavy way with elbows. That's one big reason why Wing Chun doesn't spar much.
"He did spar a lot with Thai fighters..." *imagining a guy punching out spacecraft for Kung Fury 2*
I'd say that's more for Kung Pow 2: Tongue of Fury
@@jherazob If only, I'd risk a theater visit for that.
@@jherazob I'm kinda mad we never got the sequel we were promised like 20 years ago 😆
As someone who trains Wing Chun. I was really happy to hear you make the distinction between Chi Sau and sparring. I have found the two get wrongly compared. For me and my class mates it is for practicing technique, structure, facing, sensitivity etc. It can be like having a conversation with your hands so to speak. However, the intensity can be turned up when necessary making it more dynamic - but it is still not sparring.
Chi Sao is really about having your hands to react to pressure without thinking.
Right point!
aye, but if it's not applied & you don't learn to follow up with a hard strike then what ? your insticts let you down, you can control an opponent's arms in close but don't have the muscle memory ingrained to do much with it after that, frankly it's useful for handling belligerent friends you need to settle down or drunks during security work, but in a fight it lets you down unless you learn to apply it through sparring
@@Marcusjnmc Right. You have to apply at full speed. I used chi sao in a sparring session one time and used it to get over a guy's block and put him in a rear naked choke in less that a second. Both he and I were quite surprised at that exchange because he was a red belt and I was a yellow. It was when I started to really figure out how to use pressure in full speed.
@@Marcusjnmc If you don't learn to follow up with a hard strike you train wrong. Not necessarilly something that should be blamed on the style itself, maybe a particular school :D. I'm still a beginner and I was fairly bruised from chi sau training alone, because more senior students do follow up to check "if you are really there".
Funny fact: Wing Chun and Naha-te descendent Karate Schools have roots on Fujian White Crane.
Yes, I've trained in Uechi ryu for a long time and you can easily see southern Chinese in our kata.
@@shevetlevi2821 I recently began training in Goju-Ryu and was surprised by just how many parallels there were between that and what I grew up with in Wing Chun. Can definitely see the similar roots.
@@Tenchigumi Yes, definitely Anthony. I'm sure you know that Goju means hard-soft. The name of the kung fu style that Uechi ryu came from is Pangai noon which also means hard-soft. I consider Okinawan Goju ryu a sister style of Uechi ryu. You can see how they both find their roots in southern Chinese with the circular blocks, high stances and short to medium range techniques.
@Razgriz the Mandalorian I agree about the vulnerability when the fight goes to ground. I trained in BJJ for 3 years but didn't see the connection with Okinawa-te. Very interesting idea Razgriz. Please explain further on this.
@Razgriz the Mandalorian You've given me alot to think about. I haven't trained with others since the shutdown in March 2020. When I get back to it this will be an interesting concept to try. The Internet is so cool that this subject can come up. You might live on another continent but we can still exchange ideas across the miles.
I'm currently in a school where the older instructor was dangling "sparring" as this big carrot but in reality it was more about just doing chi sao and learning new combinations.
The instructor (much younger) that came after he retired decided to ramp up the conditioning and strength training, footwork and timing drills, and I soon found out why: he wants to do high intensity chi sao first and then let people get into bouts.
My lessons changed pretty much overnight, from static drills and chi sao with all the partners, to conditioning, then forms, and chi sao drills (with extra pushups and focus mitts in between), then the chi sao drills transition into kind of "here's a problem, use what you have to solve it" testing, where the partner just starts from a specific spot but it can develop all kinds of ways. Point of those being to learn to recompose and relax quickly and not let your brain go into panic.
The instructor I have now has also trained other MAs and sees the fun in just getting into bouts and making students solve their problems cleanly.
Needless to say, the amount of bruises and punches to the face is now a thousand times more than what I received during the older instructor.
“To be bound by traditional martial art style or styles is the way of the mindless, enslaved martial artist. But to be inspired by the traditional martial art and to achieve further heights is the way of genius.” Bruce Lee
Shit and I always thought I was sometimes bad for going against the grain it feels good to have some validation in my ideals from a great man
Wing Chun has always worked in fights... well for those who have trained it for fights. As it’s been said you perform how you train.
Exactly. When practiced with actual application, if it can actually be "applied", anything in life shows it's usefulness.
Drills are fine but real sparring teaches you way more because the pain makes you remember. My first lesson - We had a system of 40mins cardio, weights - then sparring for 25 mins. But no matter how tired your arms are, you keep them up. Because getting hit on the face hurts more than tiring your arms. The last 25 mins was conditioning, abs and stretching. It was brutal but effective. And everyone had respect for each other. We managed our strength so the impacts would hurt but never maim. The days were divided in Kickboxing, Boxing and BJJ. And weekends were for pure 90 mins sparring sessions where you could test all that you had learned.
So glad I discovered your channel
Me too! 🙏👊
I was actually having a discussion about this the other day with my friend. I think Wing Chun has some amazing concepts but when I learned it for fun, the actual techniques were not taught well. However I loved the concepts, now when fighting Muay Thai or boxing, the concepts are very helpful. Though I no longer practice wing-chun, I see myself applying a lot of it's concepts when I am fighting my opponents close range. So in a sense, I use my own minor version of wing-chun because I take it's concepts and figure out how it works in normal fight pressure. I love wing-chuns concepts, and I believe when practiced under the proper circumstances the art is actually practical.
Good that you get out of wingscam..
what is a 'wing chun concept'
@@SonsOfDeForest One of the major ones is: "do things simultaneously". They teach you to defend and counter attack at the same time as much as possible. It is very unintuitive at first, because the intuitive rhytm of a fight is defend, then attack and the brain isn't great at actually controlling independent actions of both hands and front leg by default. In wing chun you would instead parry with right hand, while left goes for a punch at the same time for example or parry with right, keep left near your chin, but kick leading leg with your leading leg, again at the same time as you parry/block the punch. That's why it needs to be trained, to retrain the instinct (to defend and just defend first) and teach your brain to handle both arms and front leg separately. The simultaneous moves then screw opponents over, because it's unintuitive for them too, but they are not used to it unlike you. I used to do fencing and I can't tell you for a fact, that you can fence for 10 years and then someone hands you a second sword for your offhand and you are absolutely clueless. Brain doesn't comprehend at all and the second sword actually gets in your way and you want to throw the thing away. That's why I think this is one of the very beneficial things wing chun can teach you and one of the core concepts.
@@SonsOfDeForest Another one would be: "compactness". Ofc wing chun teaches you legwork, but wing chun also teaches you how to deal with a situation where you can't move. It is a matter of shifting the centerline (and your center of mass) by shifting weight between your left and right leg while standing in place. You then leverage that while defending and attacking. For example to shift into a hook (because yes, wing chun likes for the attacks to come from the front, so we simply shift into them) or punch with the weight shift to get extra power. Kinda hard to explain without showing :D, but it's situationally useful. The "weird slapping hands in the air thing" training is also for these situations, where the opponent pushed himself into your comfort zone and you can't move away. So you need to deal with his hands somehow, to open a way for a straight punch. That's pretty much what wing chun is about: "things to do in various situations". Not just one sqeaky clean use case, where you fight single opponent in boxer shorts in large open space without obstructions, where you can stay on distance comfortable for you by backing away or moving around him.
@@AdamTuxTengler here's my problem with all that. 'simultaneity' is not exclusive to wing chun, it is a principle that applies to combat as a whole. the difference is the specific technique that is used. it is just not realistic to expect to be able to parry and strike consistently in a real fight. other systems have different techniques to address the same issue that are simply more effective (static blocks, foot work, head movement). ultimately if you are skilled enough to be effective using wing chun, you would be even more effective using boxing/mui thai/etc.
really like how you are so willing to learn and study. you are a true martial artist
4:44 omg, sparred a lot with Tie fighters? Impressive, most impressive.
im dead
X wings usually fight tie fighters
PEW PEW PEW PEW
So pretty much majority of Wing Chun practicioners/schools are holding itself back from becoming a legit combat martial arts. If all of them had the same mindset like Qi lala and his teacher, who's knows how much further they could evolve Wing Chun.
Wong Shun Leung lineage pressure tests and focuses on actual application. The guy was a boxer before meeting Ip Man, and is pretty much the one student of Ip Man to actually fight in real life. Sadly it's is a lineage which does not seem to be as accessible as others.
Thank you. You're videos are first class and your sincerity/honesty is beyond question.
I have trained in a classical martial art for many years and have concluded that:
1. Ability is much more about the individual than the style. I am sure that some styles are more effective than others, but in my experience an able/effective individual will succeed whatever style she/he practices. Furthermore, I have trained with many senior blackbelts I could blow over and with many novices off the street who could probably do the same to me. I think an individual's experience in life, relentlessness, attitude, endurance, genetic ability, IQ etc are at least as important as the style she/he trains in.
2. I have no doubt that some "martial arts" (boxing, muay thai, wrestling, BJJ etc) are more effective in skilled combat, particularly in the ring or cage, than others. However, I wouldn't dismiss the effectiveness of classical martial arts (including aiki-do & karate) in the self-defence scenario against idiots and drunks, provided commonsense, situational awareness and a lack of false ego are incorporated.
3. We live in an age in which training in many different martial arts is easily available to all. When I was young you were lucky to find any sort of martial arts dojo hosted by a quality teacher nearby. I would encourage all martial artists to cross train in as many styles (within reason!) as possible provided the teachers and schools feel right. I think the ideal for those of us who do martial arts on a recreational basis is to focus on a single art but to supplement with skills from others. Just my opinion of course.
4. Effective techniques are the simplest techniques and usually those which depend upon gross motor control rather than detailed, complex, precise techniques. Of course, highly trained individuals might be able to master the latter but most mere mortals under conditions of stress are much more likely to succeed using the former.
Apologies for the longish self-indulgence here. I think I am trying to say that I am happy that you are not dismissing some classical arts including wing chung. As I said it depends upon the individual and her/his ability to excel by being open minded and incorporating techniques from other styles.
Please keep up the superb work.
ATVB.
There may be hope for martial arts yet and this video is proof you become good at what you train. Awesome!
*triggered Taiwanese noises*
In all seriousness though, Qi La La is from Taiwan. I think that most people would agree that regardless of if you think Taiwan is a country, it's usually more appropriate to refer to it as a separate "place"
😊🙏
I love how the best Wing Chun out there is from Taiwan. That must piss off a lot of the CCP and the mainlanders.
@@idleeidolon Like which masters?
I lived in Taiwan for 5 years, well I didn't try too hard to find the best masters there, but aside from Ip Man nephew, do you know Wing Chun master in Taiwan?
Was going to comment about this. He is from Taiwan.
@@johnboyjordan1915 found the Wumao
I have studied wing chun for a couple months now. We do mostly drills and such, but once you reach a certain level of skill, we do have sparring or "shadow fighting" as my sifu often calls it
Good video. I originally started Wing Chun training in Hawaii over 40 years ago. Since moving to the mainland and seeing how many local schools train I have to agree with much of what you say here. I've noticed the thing with Chi Sau being used as a sparring drill. It was never taught to me as such. Chi sau was simply a flowing drill meant to help learn sensitivity and movement from one position to the other while feeling the movement from your opponent. Being able to control your own "energy" as it were (what the opponent feels). We had actual sparring drills which were basically controlled fights where to "win" you had to knock your opponent completely down at least 3 times. Chi Sau was never conducted in this manner. I've also noticed that many of the WC schools I've encountered here tend to practice wing chun as a series of prearranged movements and they don't learn to adapt to the opponent instead they focus on using brute strength. This can work if one's opponent is significantly less strong but usually doesn't fair so well when an opponent is of equal of greater strength or of greater skill. In the end, like Mr. Lee and many others have pointed out, a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick, the fact is that how well one does in fighting is in many ways how well you apply the various movement options at any given moment in relation to what you opponent is doing. Anyway long story short great video and breakdown.
I leaning wc on my own bc I saw how it flowed together and had unique techniques thats only in Kung fu n kinda forgotten about that work really well like elbows smashing punches, standing arm bar n breaks, all of the elaborate sticky hands n traps techniques, n my favorite stomping incoming kicks outta the way like no one is doing that somehow (I actually started to do it on my own as a kid n then saw Jackie Chang do em in his movies). And the thing about how to learn the way to chain strikes in wc is supposed to be in etheir the wood dummy or shadow boxing in a way where ur strike need to make ur enemy in ur head move accordingly so leg kick him he's goes a bit lower/tumbles, u can even make him trow a punch to fight back so u do a counter strike or him blocking in a obvious way that most ppl will so u then react quickly to it n often can use that postion as ur advantages as all techniques leaves you open to another and all ur little figth r supposed to be quick so its all getting in fast ko with little resistance n restart its like doing in n out drills in boxing but u chain enough to ko or hurt badly, I just find it sad that one of the best martial art gets disrespected due to lost of knowledge
You can't do any chi sau in any real fights, if you can't even close the distance. People simply jump around and good boxers do not stick their arms out after a punch. chi sau is only used for conditioning your arms and be able to reaction faster. The concept of center line is useful. but it is useless if you don't have good footwork and you encounter people who can go around to your side quickly, like Baaqua. People with good footwork can go to your side and attack from your side. Check our good boxers like Lomachenko.
I trained under the wong shun leung wing chun lineage in London for a bit...they did have some practical pressure testing compared to the other wing chun I did.
Wong shun leung did boxing before wing chun and trained Bruce Lee for a bit...his boxing background i feel added a pressure fighter ethos that I noticed amongst his students...they have a lot of forward pressure in their wing chun style
He was the boxing student I ip man 2 how fought ip man on the roof lol
hi there. I'm a wing chun practitioner with some experience on some other martial arts. I think the concepts of wing chun are pure gold for a good fighter.
I like how humble, honest, and open you are to the possibility of being wrong. You don't seem to allow your ego to get in the way of your learning and growth. I'm currently striving to be more like that. Thank you for sharing your journey in your videos. It's so inspiring!
It's not about which style is the best, it's about which one you can best master.
It's not the style that makes a warrior, it is the warrior that makes the style their own.
But it is. No person no matter how great he is will make WC even comparable with MMA.
@@SwordWieldingDuck Facts. There's a reason that highly paid MMA fighters (and the guys that coach them) use the styles that they do. Some ways of moving the human body are simply more efficient and superior overall than others. By op's logic, a Tai Chi master could be a multimillionaire UFC champion if only he "mastered his style."
If you’re interested, I would suggest looking up Northern Shaolin, it’s a very brutal style and they spar everyday.
Nice!
Great video. I always thought there was something to handtrapping. I see a tiny bit of it when boxers parry. There's a video going around of Thug Rose from UFC practicing hand trapping and I'm excited to see it being used more in MMA. But time will tell if it's useful.
Sidenote: being a blue belt in BJJ means you should be able to take care of an untrained opponent. Same could probably be said with Aikido and Wing Chung. The problem arises when you try it with trained opponents.
It's definitely mostly about the application. I trained in Lau Gar growing up and we did sparring for half an hour every session as well as a lot of pad work. But I was really surprised to discover that other schools did nothing but forms. That's basically like the equivalent of saying you do boxing but really just doing boxercise. I was skeptical about wing chun until I tried a class in China and genuinely couldn't believe their level of power
Useless wingscam?
it's not the art but the artist
I used to be a chunner over 20 years ago. I studied for years under a sifu who was strict on form and pressure testing. From 12 until 19 I studied under this sifu until I left for the Navy.
After my time in I came back to my home town to find my school was still there but my sifu had left someone else in charge. This sifu below him was a former classmate that at first seemed to focus on what my sifu had taught. I was so wrong.
The students were dressed like they were cast members in Ip man movies. When I studied we had a T-shirt that had the school name in Cantonese. That’s it. We trained on concrete floors, no padding while pressure testing and the wooden dummy’s were meant to for full force. The new school was all about speaking in traditional terms, they padded up before “sparring” and Mats were brought out when you trained “ground fighting”. Absolute shit.
When i began doing some chi sau with other students I was hitting them at full force when finding an opening. I could tell from the shock of the other student that this was not normal. I was yelled at by the sifu that, “we don’t train that way anymore!” And with that I became sad. My sifu (who has passed on may he Rest In Peace) was open minded and accepted that other martial arts are in the world. This new sifu was of the impression that wing Chun was all there is or ever will be.
Needless to say I left and found a Muay Thai school. Trained hard there and was confronted at my own home a year after I left wing Chun by this new sifu. He stated that I had “put a cancer in my martial art” and that “I will never harness the true power of wing Chun”. What the hell!? Then he challenged me to “spar”. He wanted to chi sau, which I obliged. Following his lead I was thrown off my center line and paddy caked with his chain punching. I asked to go one more time and when he put up his hands I pushed back to keep my distance and used Muay Thai. When I kicked his thigh his face told everything to me. Fear. He was shown a flaw in his belief and didn’t know what to do. As he started to limp and couldn’t figure out why his leg would work, I asked him to leave my property. He went on about how I was banned from the council and that my name will be forever smeared in the wing Chun community.
This long story is a cautionary tale to those who might be seeking out a “pure art”. Make sure the mystique of the system doesn’t cloud your search for a quality system. The wing Chun I trained in still sticks with me to this day. I have used it several times while in the Navy in street fights or friendly competition. I also used it for years working at a mental hospital where people try to hurt you daily. Wing Chun can and will work but hot if you believe it’s the end all be all.
Each martial art is a tool box. Reach in and find the tools that have substance and disregard the fancy BS.
To end, chain punching is a fantastic way to increase hand speed. Period. Now chain punching someone’s head is not recommended.
Still remember the first time I felt a proper leg kick!!!! Muay Thai has the bombs! :-)
Thanks for sharing your experience
Aikido practitioners, where are you guys. One of the key concepts in most martial arts is honesty. Ask yourself does this art really work and listen to what your thoughts tell you with an honest heart. The way to begin to fix anything starts with pure honesty.
They are hiding inside their cave. Lol!
Agree with having to be honest. I've trained in Aikido 14yrs and over the last few years been asking the question about the training method. I believe it doesn't matter what martial art or fighting system your learning, it is a distant second to the way and method you train which means full on pressure testing.
@@tamalafaiki4512 unless the system you train in doesn't have the answers. If you are taught something and it's all wrong whether it's brain surgery or self-defense it's not going to help when you need it. I trained karate for ten years. I knew deep down my hands were crap and I had no answers for grappling it took about 2 years to finally leave and go train juijitsu and boxing. Don't waste anymore time I regret I waited so long.
@@jitsroller I think of Traditional martial arts kinda like accessories. Learn boxing/Muay Thai/ BJJ/ and either wrestling or judo. Then once you have a solid base of skill, and want to add some flair or uniqueness or something else, then look at TMAs.
I've watched your channel since you were an aikido channel. Great content all along.
Thank you. Very glad to hear it
Bruce Lee said: "To be able to defeat a bigger or any type of opponent, you need to practice and become good in footwork, do sparring and master broken rhythm!"
He also gave up most of his wing chun
@@rfernandez7040 But, core structure of Jeet Kune Do is Wing Chun.
@@theficho5104 ua-cam.com/video/rH7UsQxlhUQ/v-deo.html
@@theficho5104 Jun fan gung Fu is a modified wing Chun. That was Bruce's original art before JkD
@@rfernandez7040 ua-cam.com/video/mxpIECFd_2g/v-deo.html
You're so right! Totally agree!
True Talk! Sometimes it depends on the fighter. One of my karate sensei sparred with other sports like kickboxing and kungfu to make his Karate Kumite better. Yet there were others that focus on Kata
My experience is limited to weapons based martial arts, but I find it interesting how the same trends certainly carry over. During my undergrad, I practiced a bit of kenjutsu (traditional Japanese swordsmanship not to be confused with the sport kendo.) I didn't stick around past one quarter since my schedule didn't work well with the club and they only ever did kata, introducing techniques at a snail's pace since they cared more about proper form. Which is a shame because there wasn't really a substitute at my school for historical combat.
Fast forward to my current experience in grad school and I was able to join a HEMA club which actively spars and tends to introduce the techniques much faster. While none of our members claim to be experts (we just read the old manuscripts or consulted other schools to practice the techniques) I can safely say I've learned far more and far faster in this more pressure tested environment. I actually have zero doubt a new member even with three weeks of practice can defeat a member of my old kenjutsu club who trained for three years against the air.
That being said, I definitely don't believe kenjutsu is inherently worse. From several videos on UA-cam of kenjutsu practitioners who went out of their way to spar, with enough practice they can prove competent swordsmen who hold their own against HEMA practitioners, even with the inherent reach disadvantages to their weapons. Many techniques and stances are also quite similar since there's only so many ways to swing a sword. And from my own experience, the one "attack" I learned from kenjutsu (swing high from a low guard) can be just as valid an opener as the more conventional attacks we officially covered in the HEMA club.
I have watched our videos for some time. Good to see that you share your experiences, including sharing your updates and learings.
Concerning Wing Chun, what I used to learn and like to reengage in in an applicable way, some things are clear:
a.) Many Wing Chun schools are TMA schools by defintion. They lack pressure testing like most TMA schools.
b.) The "Kung Fu Cult" you already explained in a Video with your partner from Canada (Frank Lupo?) manifests this so called "non-fighting culture". So far, so bad.
However, things are changing:
a) Many well-experienced fighters who got disappointed by this "Cult" have already left their schools and foundet there own branches, like EBMAS or Wing Revolution/Wing Fighting.
b) More and more "pure" Wing Chun guys want to overcome this "non-fighitng culture".
c) As Germany has been a main place for the evolution of Wing Chung for many years, I suppose you could do more research on the German guys. Some of the top-fighters of the past are still allive and accessible, may it be under the original name or their new branch (like EBMAS).
Here are some links to a German Wing-Chung-Guy representing the new breed of Wing-Chun-athlets:
1.) The Wingtsunner - analyzing the fail of WingChun in MMA/Full-Contact and exposing the non-fighting culture: ua-cam.com/channels/7-WzGa4fMbwBLAWbE6-vzg.htmlvideos
2.) Defencegroup: A group of athlets arround "The Wingtsunner", cross-training together for MMA, sharing WingChun, JDK, Kickboxing and BJJ: ua-cam.com/users/defencegroupvideos
3.) WingTsun Sport Association: Channel of the same guy, and his journey to become an Athlet for MMA-Competition - while using WingChun (WingTsun): ua-cam.com/channels/nz98avKU9JMbCW2HCLcW_g.htmlvideos
HIs English is not excellent, as he is a native Germany speaker. However, his messages are understandable, even with a slightly German accent (that might sound rude to native English-Speakers, but just results from the sound of the German language). If you haven't known these channels before, they can give you a profound insight. After all, applicability in full-contact is a matter of the right training. A backyard shool of TMA, with the teacher and the student doing it only part time, can never meassure up with full-time athlet using modern training facilities, training concepts including professional conditioning and nutrition. All these things have to come togehter to produce an athlet. In addtion to realistic sparring, off course.
Great vid! Thx for the upload.
Wing chun substitutes the generation of force and reach from circular motions for the probability of being able to land a quick straight punch. In some contexts this works but not so much in ufc/mma where fighting takes place with gloves in a ring.
Wing Chun definitely works, alone it’s not absolute. Bruce Lee added styles to his wing Chun.. sparing is key 🔑
🔥🧘🏽♂️🔥
I enjoyed this video very much. While I haven't trained Wing Chun due to no good schools around me I really love the art and have wanted to train it for years. I learned as much as I could from online sources and while I now train Ted Wong lineage JKD I found some great Wing Chun practitioners in that time. I'd highly recommend Alan Orr and his Iron Wolves fight team. They have taken Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and tested it in MMA, boxing, and Kickboxing competition and done really well with it. Also Kevin Lee has been doing some great stuff as far as pressure testing his Wing Chun here on UA-cam.
While they haven't to my knowledge produced fighters or pressure tested their Wing Chun in combat sports (to my knowledge) I'd also recommend Dominic Izzo's channel and Gary Lam's channel. Izzo is not opposed to sparring or combat sports but gears his Wing Chun more towards self defense, and Gary Lam teaches WSL lineage Wing Chun, the lineage that the first fighter you detailed in this video trains.
Over the years I waded through a lot of bad Wing Chun and finally found these guys. While I haven't gotten to train Wing Chun yet, and love my TW JKD, in my opinion these guys are the best Wing Chun practitioners out there today. Go check them out and decide for yourselves. 🙂
The canadian geometry argument reminds of something i heard once when comparing european knights to japanese samurai. Samurai have a lot of mysticism behind them and a lot of people think of knights as being more brutish but in reality the way they fought was mostly the same, no matter where you're from at the end of the day a sword is just a sharpened metal bar and there are only so many ways you can swing a metal bar at your enemies.
The mysticism of Samurai came after the age of the Samurai.
@@Story_Sandwich I am aware, I have spent plenty of time studying that and am also aware that knights were not brutes but quite well trained. The argument was that despite their images the actuall techniques they developed are not that different from the samurai ones. No canadian geometry
@@andret3739 They really are very different, starting from the inherent properties of the weapons themselves: construction, weight, quality of steel used, length, construction of scabbard etc. You can’t even say that Western rapiers, zweihänders or sabers are fought with using same distancing or guards, not to mention techniques.
No, as someone who has practiced both and knows (and have fought) people pretty skilled in both I dare say you use a longsword and a katana in very different ways. The fencing theory and goals are vastly different for starters.
@@Story_Sandwich Even the unarmoured styles ey?
Very true, without sparring you remove the fighting from the system.
Also true is that most Wing Chun school they not spar regular, I also agree Chi Sau have nothing to do with sparring. Chi Sau is a tool.
I myself start Wing Chun in 1987 in 2007 I become a teacher. (Wong Shun Leung lineage)
But I also have to say you can spar in difference ways.
Sparring is an agreement. Sometimes I spar with my students with kicks and other times not.
Sometimes I fight (Spar) like a boxer against my students so they can deal with these types of opponents and deal with this kind of stress.
Sometimes my school we spar wearing gloves, but its not handy in our system to have gloves, the gloves get in the way of our movements.
Sometimes we spar 2 against 1 to learn how to deal with more opponents.
Problem in the Wing Chun world, there are not many real fighters, they are more office guys. Generally Wing Chun attract A other kind of people.
Boxing, kickboxing and Thai boxing are sports. Wing Chun is a combat system for the street.
When we make from Wing Chun a sport, all is lost.
So the reason for sparring is not to win a contest, only test skills and try new things in practice, learn to deal with stress and aggression.
But like I say before, without sparring you remove the fighting from the system.
It’s a good video, good analyses.
Greeting Silvano
www.wingchunholland.nl
I was in a "wing chun" school that threw out all the forms, chi sau, and such and took the blocks, punches, elbows, knees, and kicks and practiced them in a way that muay thai, and boxers do with focus pads. We also trained very much how Jiu Jitsu does which is this a tan sao or this is a vertical punch, this is how it is applied in a controlled practice. Ok now spar using these tools for the pressure testing. We'd then go to other schools and spar and wipe the floor with everyone simply because they focused more on forms and we were sparing everyday. The techniques definitely got distilled down to their most basic form. We'd always say stick to your ABCs, which is why it always ends up looking like kickboxing. I liked the Canadian Geometry comparison.
I'm glad you corrected yourself because Wing Chun is an amazing fighting form and can be used to fight in MMA if the right kind of sparing is trained and practiced.
The problem most martial arts are new age without the live fighting.
I think Wing Chun is a very cool form being a counter based firm that focuses on rapid response when your form, balance and distance is right.
For someone who thought aikido is the best martial art thinking wing chun doesn’t work is a mad statement lol
there's a lot of pretty trash media recently out of china that heavily implies wing chun is on the same level as aikido , it's not that surprising under this context
When discussing if a martial arts is affective you must take two things into consideration studying for self-defense and studying for competition I have done both as a person ‘s practice martial arts for 40 years I have done kickboxing jujitsu for sport and I’ve also have done Krav Maga, karate and some forms of Kung fu for self-defense also been a police officer for 30 years in a defensive tactics instructor the self-defense that I’ve learned do not always applied exactly how I learned it has worked when I needed to in situations that I have encountered on the job. So when judging a style you have a judging on self-defense or A sport
You are a SINCERE martial artist. Something in short supply across the entire martial arts world whether traditional or modern. Egos abound! I'm glad you and your videos exist :)
Brilliant analysis....
Thank you
Wow, I’m quite interested if any other styles you challenge can rise to the challenge.
Wong Shun Leung was a very sparring oriented trainer. He was also a boxer so he’s a bit of an outlier. Bruce Lee referred to WSL as his true Sifu.
I would add that I don’t think Wing Chun’s problem is a lack of pressure testing because it’s quite easy to spar to test it with minimal protective gear. Maybe gloves and a mouth guard.
The problem is that the techniques lack power somewhat and they are susceptible to hook punches.
These can be adapted for as Qi La La has done.
Despite Emin Boztepe not showing actual sparring, I really cannot recommend his lessons enough. He’s good.
I have used them in sparring with good effect and I believe I have gleaned a sense of what Bruce Lee was doing when he departed from WC.
I would love to chat with Rokas on the subject and I believe I can offer some insight.
@@kungpowchickenwing well only gloves would remove the elbow element to Wing Chun.
Also the movements do have power, since they are very similar to any other martial art. Geometry is geometry 😂
And lastly about the hook: I think the idea is if you see a hook you munch the opponent in the face before the hook can land. Either that or you close the distance and go in for grappling or elbows. Punching before the hook lands would work because straight punches are faster than hooks, and it also creates distance--two things that the hook is weak with.
I trained Wong shun Leung Ving Tsun for 15yrs on and off, mostly under Alan Gibson in the UK, and then David Peterson and Darren Elvey in Melbourne Aus, and it was great, and they are really great teachers (they all have various vids online) - I must get back to training one day! We did a fair amount of pressure testing over the years, yes mainly against boxing skills, as boxers are tough opponents. If you dont know, the main element I loved was the touch sensitivity you learn through training, so your body learns to react by feel (once in contact), so you dont have to think so much, speeding up your reactions to what you feel. I too would agree there is a lot of poor WC out there... cheers
You should check Choy lee fut kung fu. It is very common for them to pressure test thei techniques again kick boxing and muay thai.
When I was 19 I did Wing Chun and the reason we didn’t do full sparring I was told was because insurance wouldn’t cover it.
lol haha
Lol
At least they were honest lol
Best excuse so far. Better than " my technique is too deadly "lol
Yeah we did open hand touch sparing
Good stuff. Main thing I learned as a kid 50 plus years ago when taking Judo as a kid, you have to do live work or pressure testing to get it right.
I definitely expected Wing Chun to show a few good vids. Qi La La is great. And that video you showed at the end was good, especially with that counter at the end.
Have you received anything from Bujinkan yet?
I'm still yet to go through Bujinkan emails in detail, but so far there doesn't seem to be many of them.
@@MartialArtsJourney
I'm hoping there will be something promising. I doubt it, but I'm hoping ^^
Get in contact with Simon Yeo he’s on Instagram he’s a bujinkan black belt and Roger Gracie bjj black belt. Also Enson inoue comes from a bujinkan background.
8:00 -- And to quote Mike Tyson, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."
100% great video.
When I trained Wing Chun, we would often full contact spar, sometimes 3 or 4 onto 1 so that you learned through actual experience how to impliment your skills.
We would use head guards, mouth guards, but unless you actually get hit, hard, you will never learn properly to use the techniques in a real-life situation.
We would always put boxing gloves on for the last 20 mins of each session, and just box, to get used to hitting and being hit.
In MMA, there are some techniques that everyone seems to rediscover and talk about like it never existed before such as calf kicks, I think there are some really interesting kicks in karate that MMA fighters are never using and there are also some legends like khabib who can win without being a "striking" genius.
So I think there will never be a universal verity in fighting, everyone, every body type and every style have their place
Yeah, that's why you have to add whatever fits you best to your style. But there ARE things that work and things that just don't. If you walk into an average Wing Chun you're not learning how to fight. If you walk into an average boxing gym though, you're probably learning how to fight (unless it's one of those fitness specific classes).
Too true- leg locks were in vogue in Pride, then seemed to get rediscovered over a decade later
Also the oblique kick. It’s all over WC
There will indeed probably never be a universal standard for fighting, but what the traditional martial artists often seem to forget when talking about MMA (not saying you’re guilty of this btw) is that its not a show where all types of different martial artists comes to show off their own individual style. All successful MMA practitioners trains MMA at an MMA gym sparring under MMA rules using techniques, concepts and tactics that are unique to MMA or fits the current MMA-meta in some way. So many people mistake MMA of being «grappler vs striker» or «TKD vs Wrestling» or something like that, when in reality its always MMA guy vs MMA guy. What those MMA guys have as a «backround» or do as auxiliary excersise on their free time is of course a factor but in this day and age far less important than the fact that they all learn how to fight at an MMA gym.
Kahbib wins because he understands violence. He is a different beast upstairs in the head. Nothing he does is fancy or really technical. He just understands what most martial artists don't. Constant forward pressure. He rarely defends. He is doing exactly what criminals do. Keeps coming on too of you never letting up and not caring what you are throwing. Martial artists play the tag game and mostly stand in one spot being afraid of what's coming. He just doesn't care.he keeps on the opponent until they are down and then keeps the pressure on. Is is in constant attack, constant offence that is backed by insane cardio and a mindset of a killer
Qi La La honestly revealed that his Wing Chun was 'self-taught' and it is really hard to say whether the skills that he has been applying so far is really Wing Chun.
indeed