Al Milgrom is vastly underrated as an artist. He tells the story clearly and gets anatomy right, which is more than can be said for many, many more popular artists.
What was the (presumably editorial) disagreement that caused such a sudden departure from the book? JB: The departure was as sudden as it was for a simple reason: a bone-head EiC who did not pay attention. Several months before the Immortus storyline got started, we writers and editors were summoned to the EiC's office for the purpose of concocting the latest . . . shudder. . . Summer Crossover. As I had a storyline coming up in AWC that would be pretty cosmic and wide reaching, I offered it as the basis for the Crossover. The EiC said no, he didn't want to do that for the Crossover. So Howard Mackie (AWC Editor) and I returned to our jobs on the book, and went ahead with the story as planned. One month before we got to the Big Reveal, as it were, the EiC suddenly noticed we were doing the storyline he had "rejected". He ordered us to change it, immediately. Howard protested -- the EiC had not said we could not do the storyline, only that he did not want to use it for the Crossover. Finally the EiC pulled rank -- we Must change our story, as we did not have "permission" to do it. (Permission was needed only if stories caused major changes to characters or continuity. This did neither.) Since there was nothing I could do with all my months setup, other than the story as planned, I quit in protest, with Howard's support. Source: www.byrnerobotics.com/FAQ/listing.asp?ID=3&T1=Questions+about+Aborted+Storylines#59
So glad you covered this. I just got the two AWC omnibuses this week and I wondered where the rest were collected. Also, don’t apologize for editorializing! Good to hear your two cents on the material being discussed. 👍
I must watch these reading order videos over and over again (keeps me entertained at work😀). I even watch the ones I Don't collect and they have started me on collecting some series (hulk and FF mainly). I'd love to see a reading order video of the Avengers (I know that it would be a fairly huge collection video but you could just show the covers and give the issue numbers in the collections that you don't have) and I'd love to see a Captain America reading order as well. I've got a fairly decent Avengers/cap collection and I'd love to know what I need to add to complete them. Thanks Omar.
I’m so glad you have these reading orders. Because of how much I’ve been enjoying Wanda Vision I went and purchased John Byrne’s Avengers. Namely because Wanda is on the cover lol. I’m vaguely familiar with that era of the Avengers. I had a few issues of West Coast Avengers but it’s been so long and I was so young that I don’t remember any of the plot points. Congrats on 40,000 Omar!!!!! You da man!!! Peace and love. Peace and Love to quote sir Jess Bragg.
I was not a fan of Milgrom either (and still really aren't) but I'm still buying those Englehart and Milgrom WCA as they come out in Epic Collections. The only run I feel is worthy of Omni format, for me anyway, is the Byrne run and I have that omnibus. I"m getting ready to buy the Cross Time Caper Epic Collection that just came out and I have the first Epic collection. Would have loved to have seen more issues by Roger Stern and Bob Hall as after than the Byrne run, the original 4 issue mini-series was my second favorite WCA/AWC. Bob Hall is a much better artist than Milgrom and although I'm a fan of Steve Engelhart, Roger Stern is probably my favorite Avengers writer and favorite 80's era Marvel writer in general. The man's a gem. Speaking more of Milgrom, I still remember my deep disappointment on Secret Wars 2, after the great Zeck arc in Secret Wars they bring in work-man like jobber Al Milgrom! As for why Byrne quit, from the John Byrne Forum FAQ and in the words of the man himself: "The departure was as sudden as it was for a simple reason: a bone-head EiC who did not pay attention. Several months before the Immortus storyline got started, we writers and editors were summoned to the EiC's office for the purpose of concocting the latest . . . shudder. . . Summer Crossover. As I had a storyline coming up in AWC that would be pretty cosmic and wide reaching, I offered it as the basis for the Crossover. The EiC said no, he didn't want to do that for the Crossover. So Howard Mackie (AWC Editor) and I returned to our jobs on the book, and went ahead with the story as planned. One month before we got to the Big Reveal, as it were, the EiC suddenly noticed we were doing the storyline he had 'ejected'. He ordered us to change it, immediately. Howard protested -- the EiC had not said we could not do the storyline, only that he did not want to use it for the Crossover. Finally the EiC pulled rank -- we Must change our story, as we did not have 'permission' to do it. (Permission was needed only if stories caused major changes to characters or continuity. This did neither.) Since there was nothing I could do with all my months setup, other than the story as planned, I quit in protest, with Howard's support."
Except Byrne's a well known egomaniac and unreliable narrator in addition to a barely adequate writer, so take anything he alleges with a massive block of salt.
Cool video! And finally an overview (kind of) of Avengers The Crossing Omnibus! I don't think you can find a video on youtube showing the interior. Thank you. Mine is sealed until I get to read it.
i hope Marvel reprints these; i was late to the omni game and never got them when they came out. hopefully the MCU creates a west coast avengers and generate some interest for the book.
Fantastic video as always, my friend. You are the BEST at these types of videos. Now that this one is done I REALLY need you to get to work on a Great Lakes Avengers Reading Order video. The public is crying out for this information. I'll look for that video by the weekend. I appreciate it, my brother. #OmarRules #GreatLakesAvengersAreUnderrated
@@NearMintCondition If not Great Lakes Avengers how about a Reading Order video of Marvel's "Daydreamers", DC's "Legion of Super-Pets" or Marvel's "Fantastic Force"? C'mon, Omar, if you want the clicks you gotta give the people what they want. Do it for the content! #OmarRules #YeahIAmAWiseass
Daaamn!didnt remember DnA did Force Works!!!had just one issue of that cant say i was overly impressed but man i looove cosmic DnA!and also have the last issue of WCA ..wish it would be qorth something😋cheers from Greece!
DUDE Crossing FTW everyone needs 2 copies. 1in the living room and one in the bedroom. 😁 Great video as always and I was only being a little sarcastic I do actually like the crossing though 😁
Byrne jumped off Avengers West Coast due to creative differences with the editor. Stainless Steve Engelhart was not at the peak of his writing abilities that he was at in the seventies when he returned to comics in the eighties, sadly. Al Milgrom would always turn in a professional job but wasn't the stylist that Byrne, Perez and some others were, but they still created an enjoyable run. No, Omar, you're not alone in loving the Crossing (although some of those tie in issues 😧).
I can't bare Al Milgram. He was everywhere in the 80s. I hated his Hulk stuff too. Ugh. I've been buying a bunch of Byrne Omni's lately. I may have to get that Avengers now. I was wavering on that one. I prefer Byrne art focused books more then his writing books.
Thanks for this particular video Omar. If I may clarify or correct something, when the Vision took over chairmanship of the Avengers, one of his first actions was to expand them by placing a team on the West Coast. Hawkeye was his choice as team leader of the WCA given his vast history and experience with the team. It wasn't a case of Hawkeye becoming disgruntled. Mockingbird was also invited into the team. It seems I am missing a chunk that's in an WCA Omnibus (#31-41) so I may need Epics to fill the gap. Which is the missing Captain America issue in the Galactic Storm Epic? I have it and it appears to be intact including Captain America #401 ('After The Storm'). Cheers.
My friend, always a pleasure seeing you show up and for clarifying the part about Vision, since he kept jumping back and forth between teams. It was solicited without 401. Damnit! I could have upgraded, well at least these have more Capullo quasar. :)
Love your comprehensive reading order videos! I'm not clear on how "Force Works" connect to West Coast Avengers. You said, "New Mutants meet X-Force." Could you please clarify? Thanks.
Basically it's the west coast team having a falling out with the main avengers and quiting then forming force works as a more extreme team. The same basic formula as the new mutants leaving the xavior Institute with cable and forming xforce.
I think it's kinda silly to have to build a collection through so many different formats and titles. I wish Marvel would have thought this through and rolled out AWC omnibus 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. I don't want to collect one series through so many different kinds of books. It not a collection, it a motley group. The same thing is happening with Alpha Flight. They name Omnibus 1 John Byrne's Alpha Flight and then they have no where to go from there in a series that had 130 books (though with the Alpha Flight omnibus Marvel can just move on to Alpha Flight omnibus 2 and keep it going). With AWC omnibus 3 Marvel would have to repeat the Byrne material and then they can move on to omnibus 4 to complete the series that had more than 100 comic books and several cross overs. I respect Byrne for the legend he is and I do have several John Byrne omnibuses collected, but I also like to collect complete series. I wish Marvel would complete the AWC as an omnibus series. Heck, I already have several omnibuses that repeat material from other omnibuses and I don't love them any less.
From a business perspective you have to see why DC and Marvel makes decisions like these. If the omnis aren't selling then they won't print anymore. Which sucks, because I'd love for my bookshelves to be nothing but omnis.
Hey Near Mint, great vid! I was wondering if the order you reviewed the books in your video would correlate to the correct chronological order as well? Thanks!
@@NearMintCondition The first epic is OOP but I think diamond still has some copies so I'll get my LCS to order it. If I was in the US I'd get it from cheap graphic novels. I think I'll get the Avengers by Byrne omni. I'd like to read the vision quest story and the omni includes a good run of avengers along with the west coast material so it looks like a good read.
It proberly would've been the same outcome as was written-wanda returned to normal, immortus defeated & everyone goes home to continue on with their lives like the soap opera comics are.
it ticks me off when writers "put down" hawkeye as the joke avenger its like his leadership of the avengers west coast and the thunderbolts never happened. goliath vs giantman oh im in . that force works usagent costume.
Thanks for the videos. I’ve considered the Byrne Avengers book, but as much as I like Byrne’s art I’m not crazy about his stories/writing. Maybe I’ll just go buy more X-Men Omnis......😊
Hi, omar.I heard that he left over the "dark scarlet witch"saga, due to editorial problems- byrne wanted it to do this story in that years annuals & marvel/editors said"no", so he did it in AWC, the editor(howard makie?) got fired & so byrne quit the book.
Getting hard to find things like the older prints of Avengers: Operation Galactic Storm, It's Marvel older stock which is getting replaced buy newer collections
Al Milgrom is vastly underrated as an artist. He tells the story clearly and gets anatomy right, which is more than can be said for many, many more popular artists.
What was the (presumably editorial) disagreement that caused such a sudden departure from the book?
JB: The departure was as sudden as it was for a simple reason: a bone-head EiC who did not pay attention. Several months before the Immortus storyline got started, we writers and editors were summoned to the EiC's office for the purpose of concocting the latest . . . shudder. . . Summer Crossover. As I had a storyline coming up in AWC that would be pretty cosmic and wide reaching, I offered it as the basis for the Crossover. The EiC said no, he didn't want to do that for the Crossover. So Howard Mackie (AWC Editor) and I returned to our jobs on the book, and went ahead with the story as planned. One month before we got to the Big Reveal, as it were, the EiC suddenly noticed we were doing the storyline he had "rejected". He ordered us to change it, immediately. Howard protested -- the EiC had not said we could not do the storyline, only that he did not want to use it for the Crossover. Finally the EiC pulled rank -- we Must change our story, as we did not have "permission" to do it. (Permission was needed only if stories caused major changes to characters or continuity. This did neither.) Since there was nothing I could do with all my months setup, other than the story as planned, I quit in protest, with Howard's support.
Source: www.byrnerobotics.com/FAQ/listing.asp?ID=3&T1=Questions+about+Aborted+Storylines#59
Thank you so much for sharing.
Almost all of my John Byrne series had sudden departures...always bummed me out
So glad you covered this. I just got the two AWC omnibuses this week and I wondered where the rest were collected. Also, don’t apologize for editorializing! Good to hear your two cents on the material being discussed. 👍
Thank you so much for the kind words and I'm glad I was able to help. Not much left orpaned too.
these vids always make me buy the omnis
I'm sorry? :)
@@NearMintCondition Don't be. Our wallets don't apprecuiate your work but we do.
Thank you for showing some love to the West Coast Wackos! I love these guys 🙏🏾
You got it!! As do I. :)
I must watch these reading order videos over and over again (keeps me entertained at work😀). I even watch the ones I Don't collect and they have started me on collecting some series (hulk and FF mainly). I'd love to see a reading order video of the Avengers (I know that it would be a fairly huge collection video but you could just show the covers and give the issue numbers in the collections that you don't have) and I'd love to see a Captain America reading order as well. I've got a fairly decent Avengers/cap collection and I'd love to know what I need to add to complete them. Thanks Omar.
Thank you so much, Dom. I will be working on Cap later on this year. Was waiting on a couple of Epics before I did.
I STILL haven’t read my Premiere HC of the original mini. I need to get on that though. This video has reinvigorated me.
Oh thank you and you should read it.
Excellent video!
This makes me want to watch a video of you reviewing Avengers: the crossing. If you decide to do it, I'll watch it.
Best wishes.
I may do that and why I enjoy it so much. :)
I’m so glad you have these reading orders. Because of how much I’ve been enjoying Wanda Vision I went and purchased John Byrne’s Avengers. Namely because Wanda is on the cover lol.
I’m vaguely familiar with that era of the Avengers. I had a few issues of West Coast Avengers but it’s been so long and I was so young that I don’t remember any of the plot points.
Congrats on 40,000 Omar!!!!! You da man!!! Peace and love. Peace and Love to quote sir Jess Bragg.
I was not a fan of Milgrom either (and still really aren't) but I'm still buying those Englehart and Milgrom WCA as they come out in Epic Collections. The only run I feel is worthy of Omni format, for me anyway, is the Byrne run and I have that omnibus. I"m getting ready to buy the Cross Time Caper Epic Collection that just came out and I have the first Epic collection. Would have loved to have seen more issues by Roger Stern and Bob Hall as after than the Byrne run, the original 4 issue mini-series was my second favorite WCA/AWC. Bob Hall is a much better artist than Milgrom and although I'm a fan of Steve Engelhart, Roger Stern is probably my favorite Avengers writer and favorite 80's era Marvel writer in general. The man's a gem. Speaking more of Milgrom, I still remember my deep disappointment on Secret Wars 2, after the great Zeck arc in Secret Wars they bring in work-man like jobber Al Milgrom!
As for why Byrne quit, from the John Byrne Forum FAQ and in the words of the man himself:
"The departure was as sudden as it was for a simple reason: a bone-head EiC who did not pay attention. Several months before the Immortus storyline got started, we writers and editors were summoned to the EiC's office for the purpose of concocting the latest . . . shudder. . . Summer Crossover. As I had a storyline coming up in AWC that would be pretty cosmic and wide reaching, I offered it as the basis for the Crossover. The EiC said no, he didn't want to do that for the Crossover. So Howard Mackie (AWC Editor) and I returned to our jobs on the book, and went ahead with the story as planned. One month before we got to the Big Reveal, as it were, the EiC suddenly noticed we were doing the storyline he had 'ejected'. He ordered us to change it, immediately. Howard protested -- the EiC had not said we could not do the storyline, only that he did not want to use it for the Crossover. Finally the EiC pulled rank -- we Must change our story, as we did not have 'permission' to do it. (Permission was needed only if stories caused major changes to characters or continuity. This did neither.) Since there was nothing I could do with all my months setup, other than the story as planned, I quit in protest, with Howard's support."
Thank you for sharing that, brother. I thought it had something to do with the editors, but damn EIC> didn't see that coming.
Except Byrne's a well known egomaniac and unreliable narrator in addition to a barely adequate writer, so take anything he alleges with a massive block of salt.
Always helpful: thanks a lot Omar!
Thank you so much for watching.
Cool video! And finally an overview (kind of) of Avengers The Crossing Omnibus! I don't think you can find a video on youtube showing the interior. Thank you. Mine is sealed until I get to read it.
What!!? no videos of that!!? I need to get on that.
i hope Marvel reprints these; i was late to the omni game and never got them when they came out. hopefully the MCU creates a west coast avengers and generate some interest for the book.
Fantastic video as always, my friend. You are the BEST at these types of videos. Now that this one is done I REALLY need you to get to work on a Great Lakes Avengers Reading Order video. The public is crying out for this information. I'll look for that video by the weekend. I appreciate it, my brother. #OmarRules #GreatLakesAvengersAreUnderrated
My man, thank you so much for the kind words. Great Lake Avengers!!! One day, right? :)
@@NearMintCondition If not Great Lakes Avengers how about a Reading Order video of Marvel's "Daydreamers", DC's "Legion of Super-Pets" or Marvel's "Fantastic Force"? C'mon, Omar, if you want the clicks you gotta give the people what they want. Do it for the content! #OmarRules #YeahIAmAWiseass
Could do a reprint of west coast omnibus hope one day 😊😊👍👍
Daaamn!didnt remember DnA did Force Works!!!had just one issue of that cant say i was overly impressed but man i looove cosmic DnA!and also have the last issue of WCA ..wish it would be qorth something😋cheers from Greece!
Much love back from the US! Yep, it was all DnA and the Crossing too.
I did say that in regards to' all the annuals of that year", which meant the yearly annual cross-over.
YES!! annual crossovers. :)
Omar, I actually really enjoyed Milgrom on Web of Spiderman when I was a kid oddly enough...call me a weirdo!
I ain't calling anyone a weirdo. I love The Crossing!
@@NearMintCondition coolest omni cat on the web.
@@webteamlifespan1883 HAHAHA omnicat. :)
DUDE Crossing FTW everyone needs 2 copies. 1in the living room and one in the bedroom. 😁 Great video as always and I was only being a little sarcastic I do actually like the crossing though 😁
I do too. YES!! There are dozens of us!! Dozens!
Just the attempts of reviving West Cost are left out haha. Good video, thanks for clearing things up.
Well Amanda and I did a review of the first volume. It was such a long time between series I don't think its anything like the original, but in name.
Next you should do Red Hood or Robin
no one really request that one. :)
Near Mint Condition I just think that’s a good idea
been looking for those books here,but i cant find them,love the vid
Thank you and I hope you are able to find them.
I remember liking the artist on the early issues of force works. He was like the early work ofJae Lee.
Yeah, I found him to be a unique artist.
Byrne jumped off Avengers West Coast due to creative differences with the editor. Stainless Steve Engelhart was not at the peak of his writing abilities that he was at in the seventies when he returned to comics in the eighties, sadly. Al Milgrom would always turn in a professional job but wasn't the stylist that Byrne, Perez and some others were, but they still created an enjoyable run.
No, Omar, you're not alone in loving the Crossing (although some of those tie in issues 😧).
YES!! More love for the Crossing.
I haven't read The Crossing, but Abnett is generally a good writer.
DnA are amazing!
Did one of the faces around 9:00 look like a Kennedy
Good eye and yest it was supposed to be.
Miss opportunity by the MCU...They should of announced a Avengers West Coast tv series...
I think they are gearing for that Young Avengers series.
I can't bare Al Milgram. He was everywhere in the 80s. I hated his Hulk stuff too. Ugh. I've been buying a bunch of Byrne Omni's lately. I may have to get that Avengers now. I was wavering on that one. I prefer Byrne art focused books more then his writing books.
The man was doing four to five books a month, so yeah his art suffered.
Yeah....al milgrom art looked so sloppy, but i was stuck with it if he got on a booked i like. But bless him & his Fam wherever he's at
Thanks for this particular video Omar. If I may clarify or correct something, when the Vision took over chairmanship of the Avengers, one of his first actions was to expand them by placing a team on the West Coast. Hawkeye was his choice as team leader of the WCA given his vast history and experience with the team. It wasn't a case of Hawkeye becoming disgruntled. Mockingbird was also invited into the team.
It seems I am missing a chunk that's in an WCA Omnibus (#31-41) so I may need Epics to fill the gap.
Which is the missing Captain America issue in the Galactic Storm Epic? I have it and it appears to be intact including Captain America #401 ('After The Storm'). Cheers.
My friend, always a pleasure seeing you show up and for clarifying the part about Vision, since he kept jumping back and forth between teams. It was solicited without 401. Damnit! I could have upgraded, well at least these have more Capullo quasar. :)
@@NearMintCondition I'm guessing that Galactic Storm Epic is now OOP?
Yeah, it is. I want an OHC.
I need them to reprint omnibus volume 2.
Love your comprehensive reading order videos!
I'm not clear on how "Force Works" connect to West Coast Avengers. You said, "New Mutants meet X-Force." Could you please clarify? Thanks.
Basically it's the west coast team having a falling out with the main avengers and quiting then forming force works as a more extreme team. The same basic formula as the new mutants leaving the xavior Institute with cable and forming xforce.
My man Jose has you! Sales were down and they wanted to pull a militant type of X-force book! So Force Works. :)
I think it's kinda silly to have to build a collection through so many different formats and titles. I wish Marvel would have thought this through and rolled out AWC omnibus 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. I don't want to collect one series through so many different kinds of books. It not a collection, it a motley group.
The same thing is happening with Alpha Flight. They name Omnibus 1 John Byrne's Alpha Flight and then they have no where to go from there in a series that had 130 books (though with the Alpha Flight omnibus Marvel can just move on to Alpha Flight omnibus 2 and keep it going). With AWC omnibus 3 Marvel would have to repeat the Byrne material and then they can move on to omnibus 4 to complete the series that had more than 100 comic books and several cross overs.
I respect Byrne for the legend he is and I do have several John Byrne omnibuses collected, but I also like to collect complete series. I wish Marvel would complete the AWC as an omnibus series. Heck, I already have several omnibuses that repeat material from other omnibuses and I don't love them any less.
From a business perspective you have to see why DC and Marvel makes decisions like these. If the omnis aren't selling then they won't print anymore. Which sucks, because I'd love for my bookshelves to be nothing but omnis.
Hey Near Mint, great vid! I was wondering if the order you reviewed the books in your video would correlate to the correct chronological order as well? Thanks!
That is the way to read them in chronological order, yes Gino. I really hope that's what you were asking.
Near Mint Condition yes thanks!
Will I be totally lost if I get Avengers by John Byrne w/o reading/owning the West Coast Avengers vol 1 and 2?
No sir, he does his own thing.
What was the comic where final form ultron faced off against Kang’s army?
I want to say that sounds like Age of Ultron or Kang Dynasty. But can't recall.
Thx Omar. For someone that has never read west coast avengers what would you recommend reading?
Hmm go for the first epic. i think I linked in the description.
@@NearMintCondition The first epic is OOP but I think diamond still has some copies so I'll get my LCS to order it. If I was in the US I'd get it from cheap graphic novels. I think I'll get the Avengers by Byrne omni. I'd like to read the vision quest story and the omni includes a good run of avengers along with the west coast material so it looks like a good read.
It proberly would've been the same outcome as was written-wanda returned to normal, immortus defeated & everyone goes home to continue on with their lives like the soap opera comics are.
Apparently he wanted to make a company wide event out of it.
it ticks me off when writers "put down" hawkeye as the joke avenger its like his leadership of the avengers west coast and the thunderbolts never happened. goliath vs giantman oh im in . that force works usagent costume.
Matt Fraction showed him as a badass in "Hawkeye". He knows how to do it
I know what you are saying. I think most think of West Coast as a joke.
Thanks for the videos. I’ve considered the Byrne Avengers book, but as much as I like Byrne’s art I’m not crazy about his stories/writing. Maybe I’ll just go buy more X-Men Omnis......😊
YES!! more X-men omnis.
Hi, omar.I heard that he left over the "dark scarlet witch"saga, due to editorial problems- byrne wanted it to do this story in that years annuals & marvel/editors said"no", so he did it in AWC, the editor(howard makie?) got fired & so byrne quit the book.
That is insane. I would have loved to have seen what he was going to do with the story.
Great job! What is up with the orphan issues? Is it a licensing issue?
No licensing. Just not out yet. :) YET!!! I hope one day.
👉💯😎🔥🔥🔥
Thank you, sir.
Getting hard to find things like the older prints of Avengers: Operation Galactic Storm, It's Marvel older stock which is getting replaced buy newer collections
I think the Epics will end up replacing everything, so I hope it comes back into print.
Could you please do Batman and Deadpool next?
I think Batman is going to take several videos, but I put the polls up on Patreon now and let them vote.
@@NearMintCondition I really hope Batman wins the poll.
Now let’s do avengers
It will be coming. :)
First
Oh yeah!