The Five Weakest Epic Level Monsters in Dungeons & Dragons 5e
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- Опубліковано 24 сер 2024
- MONSTERS OF DRAKKENHEIM is 300+ pages of eldritch horror inspired monsters for 5e by the Dungeon Dudes! Coming to Kickstarter March 26th, 2024: www.kickstarte... Some monsters in D&D can pose a real threat to player characters and are full of surprises. But some of the most classic monsters in the game might surprise you with their flaws and weaknesses, especially given their high challenge ratings. We discuss 5 of the weakest epic monsters, and why their challenge ratings don’t offer a true insight in to these monsters performance on the battlefield.
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TIME STAMPS
2:51 - Our Criteria
4:00 - The Lich
7:01 - Ancient Dragons
10:10 - The Kraken
13:39 - The Zaratan
17:29 - The Tarrasque
21:48 - Conclusion
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Lich: to few hit points
Tarrasque: no range
Solution: Tarrasqulich
I had a demigod character that had one of those as a pet :)
Even better: Archdracotarrasqulich
Dude. That's just nightmare material.
@@sadeknight9112 How about Krarchdracotarrasqulich?
now give it a earth shell, tentacles, AND WINGS!!!!
There's an easy fix for this. Just use them all together as a group.
"Apes Together Strong"
Nothing scarier than a dragon dropping a kraken on the party
A lich riding the tarrasque
Light Wing a lich riding a dragon riding a tarrasque riding a zaratun
How about merging them into one creature, that has every action the others have.
Kelly: "Outrun, outmaneuver, outsmart."
Me: We are outgunned, outmanned, outnumbered, outplanned.
Imagining Hamilton, Washington, and Lafayette fighting a tarrasque with the American army and cannons is golden to me
Monty is the Right hand man (from my POV).
Dodge.
“The enemy are to the north of us, the south of us, to our east and to our west. We’ve got them surrounded, boys!”
It's like my hockey team in middle school
Turning the Tarrasque into Godzilla is possibly the easiest fix: ranged “atomic” breath (can just grab from an ancient dragon) that can deal whatever damage type seems most fitting (fire, lightning, acid, radiant, or necrotic, or a combination of them), make it regenerate health every turn if it’s missing any, make it amphibious and give it a swim speed, and you can be done then and there. Instantly becomes a much scarier and more versatile monster that can now show up anywhere land or sea, and can retreat back into deep water to recover if a fight starts going poorly for it; plus if you chase it, you’re now fighting it on it’s turf AND it’s mad at you.
Mr Rhexx also mentioned in a video he made about it that the Tarrasque can meld with and freely move through the earth, so you could have it fuse with the ground instead then have it orca lunge up from the ground and attack players that way... assuming you can get around the whole flight thing, that is.
Tarrasque encountered in the underdark, like it decides to make Menzoberanzen its newest snack. With its earth glide and immunity to non nonmagical damage it could cannonball down from the top of the cave like a gotdamned meteor!
Even better then aquatic, the lore says it burrows up From the earth. But where's the burrow speed? let's give it one
@@cameroncox2739 With Legendary's Monsterverse including the Hollow Earth, this could definitely work!
You could just use the 3.5E Tarrasque. Requires a wish spell to kill it among a few other things like regenerating 40 hp every turn and regrowing severed limbs in 1d6 minutes.
The Dungeon Dudes: "time to workshop these monsters!"
Me, being lazy: "5 dragons... yep, 1 for each player. Yep. This is a flawless plan. Yep."
I've been there. XD
@@jamesdosdall8391 and Matt Mercer too 😂😂
Dragons drop many rock after casting enlarge on them. It’s a low level meteor swarm.
Chroma Conclave, much?
@@charlottewalnut3118 The dragons cast the 10th level spell 'Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies'
I prefer the Pirates of the Caribbean approach to dealing with the Kraken:
First, you deal with 5 to 8 tentacles. Then when those are dealt with, and everyone is weakened, then comes the actual Kraken.
Also, I completely agree that Tarrasques should be used in situations where slowly chipping away isn't a viable option. Put it a few hundred feet away from a city and moving with a goal of destroying the whole place, or already inside and surrounded by screaming civilians and flaming buildings.
Breaking down gigantic monster fights into multiple phases (like your Kraken example of multiple body parts) is a perfect way to instill in the players just how massive, and how powerful, these creatures are. Have the players fight a tarrasque by trying to pulverize the armour it has upon its legs so that gun emplacements can root it in place, then finish off the fight by having the players try to break through its armour and get to its heart. Try to go through its back? Expect more armor, more health, and the chance to get shaken off and smashed. Go for the belly? Beware its massive maw and jagged teeth!
In general I think that should be the approach to most high level solo monsters. Either break them into stages or treat different body parts as mechanically different creatures.
Check out Tromokratis from the Theros book, it's a kraken with a second phase built in. Take it to 0 hp and all you do is crack the carapace, revealing four 100 hp hearts that you have to kill - all while it keeps attacking you and gets additional legendary action options.
it legit took my lvl 20 cleric to summon his god baldr to actually take down the tarrasque since i had buffed it to a point where it isn't just fodder for 7 lvl 20 players
I have a similar idea, stealing from MMORPGs or Monster Hunter the idea that monsters can go through different phases. Unfortunately my party is currently level 6. So I can't unleash complete hell on them yet, but soon. Very soon >:D
I'm going to quote WebDM on the Tarrasque bit: 5 longbow fighters on flying carpets.
Yeah, WotC really nerfed the Tarrasque in 5e. In Pathfinder, for instance, it has a powerful ranged attack and an enormous bonus to jump checks to ensure even flying adventurers aren't safe from its bite, grab, and swallow whole combo. I also distinctly remember that the 4e Tarrasque had an massive AoE around itself that prevented any creature from flying in the area (sending them hurling to the ground instead) to prevent such cheese.
Longbow fighters
Longbow fighters
Riding flying carpets
Killing the Tarrasque
On the music of "Girls In Bikinis"
Much of the scenarios are based on the party standing directly toe to toe. It's very much like Kelly points out at the very end. Don't have the PCs be the target or objective. Although even then, my PCs always figure out a way to surprise me if I give them any time to make a plan. That tarrasque better have come out of the basement of the keep if it is going to get any damage in.
Which would be extremely difficult to get in an actual campaign. In a vacuum where the party can get whatever weapons or items they want, sure. In a campaign, where you actually have to find items and the creature itself? Good luck, because it’s not happening unless the dm is very generous.
To nerf force cage it can only make a 20ft cube and gargantuan creatures are 20ft or larger, just use the or larger.
Scariest monsters ever are suicidal cliff goblins.
I've lost 4 characters from tackles near the edge of a cliff, and have a newfound hatred for fall damage.
If the DM sticks to RAW I believe fall damage has a theoretical cap of 120. So high level characters can dive off 1,000 foot cliffs onto sharp rocks and be just fine.
Gotta invest in some monks my guy
@@jasonandrews1770 what can a Monk do that other classes don't?
@@einsibongo can use its reaction to reduce fall damage by 5 times your level
XoRandomGuyoX suicide goblins aren’t something you often see at higher levels.
...Kobolds, on the other hand...
...Damn you, Tucker...!!!
The Tarrasque could have a roar ability that does a lot of thunder damage. That would let it attack from range, and really intimidate the players as you describe how its roar is destroying buildings and trees around it.
Give the roar a recharge, and add the effect that it dispels all magic within 300ft of it causing all spells to be disrupted and all magic items to lose thier magic properties until the start of thier next turn. >:) fly away from him now! I dare you! Also, give it the ability to burrow so it cant just get stuck at the bottom of a gully -_-
@@vadaritis A Gargantuan creature like the Tarrasque is a minimum of 20x20 feet in size, and there is no upper limit after that. Just make it so big that the gully doesn't matter to it!
Edit: The Monster Manual says that it is 50 feet tall, bipedal, and 70 feet long. It's basically Godzilla.
I love 💘 it .
And causes deafness which would take out spell casters. When you can't hear and have a ringing in your ear it's difficult to speak correctly
@@vadaritis Its not in the 5e book, but the Tarrasque has always had "earth glide" similar to Earth elementals. The tarrasque can pass through earth as if it was a part of the earth itself. Tarrasque's movement is not hindered by any form of stone, dirt, sand or nature. So you can't really drop one in a gully.
You have now doomed my party to fight a cyborg zombie clone tarrasque from another dimension's future
We had just a one shot and made all level 20 characters, and we fought the terrasque, but the DM said it loved to eat red dragons and actually had a strong fire breath attack.
Can't like... a young red dragon kill a Tarrasque? Its breath weapon has more range than the Tarrasque's attacks right?
"kraken is susceptible to spells like 'Hold Monster'"
Okay, this is only one instant, but a Kraken is immune to being paralyzed. A bit of a slip up there
Nice catch! Thanks!
@@DungeonDudes Not just that but in multiple instances you guys mentioned forcecage, but it is useless against Ancient Dragon, Zaratan, Tarrasque, and Kraken. They are all too large be trapped by it. Prismatic Wall would fail on the Tarrasque as well. All that said, all of these monsters are far weaker than previous editions, or should I say they have made players too powerful. The 5th ed. Tarrasque very closely resembles the 2nd ed. version, but 20th level players in 5th ed. have far more tools and power level compared to their counterparts from 2nd ed.
@@bizzybuzz2198 gargantuan is defined in 5e as anything above 20ft.
If forcecage was a cylinder etc, that would be enough.
But it is a cube, so the 20ft is the whole length, not just the radius.
A gargantuan creature does not fit inside a forcecage
@@O-D-X This is a bit of a grey area. While yes, the descriptive text in the monster manual indicates these creatures are far larger, strictly speaking, these creatures are Gargantuan sized and occupy a 20 by 20 space on a battlemap. This is enough to be contained within the maximum extent of a barred Forcecage spell (a 20x20x20 cube). If we imagine wings or tails extending outside the space, why aren't these considered for measuring ranged attacks or AoE effects? Thus, these creatures may be trapped under the abstraction of the D&D 5e game rules. Personally, I think a Colossal size should be re-introduced and applied to such creatures, and wouldn't take issue with a homebrew Colossal-sized creature.
@@DungeonDudes The Monster Manual actually described Gargantuan as '20 by 20Ft OR LARGER', meaning that the Tarrasque, RAW, could still occupy a 50*50 space on the battlemap.
Tarrasque needs atomic breath, like godzilla
If it doesn't require the party making giant robots that they hook up to with Telepathic Bond, it is not my Tarrasque.
It really got nerfed in 5e since it doesn't regen high amounts of health each turn and no longer _requires_ wish to kill
@@piedpiper1185 To be fair, it will still resurrect. I am not sure if you needed wish to defeat it at all in earlier version but just killing the Tarrasque doesn't get rid of it, it just puts it off until it revives naturally
Add the effect to the atomic breath, if hit negates flying or something like that too... :D
@@allenfortenberry9924 From the D&D 3.5 MM:
The Tarrasque (CR 20) is AC (35). It has 858hp, Damage Reduction 15/epic, Spell Resistance 32. It is immune to ability damage, fire, disease, and poison. In 3.5 the Tarrasque's carapace is immune to all rays, lines, cones, and magic missiles with a 30% chance to reflect the attack back at its caster. The kicker is it's regeneration.
Regeneration 30 (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the Tarrasque. The Tarrasque regenerates even if failing a saving throw vs. disintegrate (when it just reduced you to dust on a failed save) or a death effect. The spell or effect will reduce the Tarrasque to -10hp; however, the Tarrasque still regenerates 30hp per turn. The Tarrasque may only be slain by reducing it to -10hp and then casting Wish or Miracle to keep it dead. Also, all of its attacks have a critical threat range of 18-20 and it does x3 damage on a critical instead of double. That thing was a Beast. I'm saddened to see it nerfed. Can you still have dwarven smiths turn the carapace into +5 shields?
This is kinda why CR for certain monsters aren’t “correct” as base, a lot of monsters aren’t really good at their meant challenge level
Yeah
It might be a lost cause to even try balancing a game lile DND
@@ast8177 I actually think DnD 5e is very balanced compared to other RGPs. Just the CR rating is completely useless.
Or the opposite, you think your lvl 8 party shouldn't have a problem with this CR7 monster. And then some brains get sucked out. Yes, I'm looking at you Mind Flayer!
@@BoredMarcus the problem isn't players to players but players to what chalange they face.
A group of arakokra Arcane archer fighters is clearly a better way to deal with a Tarasque then lets say a group of rougues and Babarians, unless they are better build against a Tarasque.?
And that's why powerlevel is so broken
It always deoends on the situation.
Players have like 50 options to work with, including magic items, wapons, spells, racial traids, classabilitys and so on,.... *PER PLAYER*
But monsters mostly act in a specific way and have like 10 at most abilitys to deal with the players.
And if these things don't work, they are pretty much screwed.
I recommend giving AJ Pickett's Kraken video a gander, he explains the ecology and gives some examples of how the beast would operate.
A 20th level party facing a DC 21 monster is a medium difficulty encounter. The party should only use about 1/5 of their available resources to defeat it.
We don’t think these monsters would even require that
I really like how broken the DC system is. It is already unreliable at low levels, but at high levels it is totally broken.
I know this is really petty but it’s CR not DC
@@rafaelbordoni516 Keep in mind CR is not meant to create “fair fights” in the sense that they could go either way. It’s meant to create fights the party should be able to consistently win if they play competently.
Liches should have like 3 too 5 magic items strictly for combat alone, contingency spells, & or traps in addition too lair actions.
Yea, the first three monsters they picked are meant to be highly intelligent enemies that would do everything they could to not end up in 1to5 combat encounters. Not to mention that they'd all just run away well before dying.
A lich mounted on an ancient dracolich, driving a terrasque to destroy everything on land, and a Kraken by sea.
Lich: Rearrange the spells and give it actual wizard class levels, along with magic items. Also, the contingency spell is a godsend. Lastly, don’t forget that a necromancer can permanently put a night walker under their control.
Dragons: Draconic sorcerer class levels along with elemental adept as a feat. Lastly, consider giving ancient dragons magic resistance.
Krakens: Legendary Resistances and magic resistance. Also, don’t play the kraken as a brute, but draw out the fight as long as possible and drain the part of their resources. A fight against a kraken would be a race against the clock and war of attrition. Make use of the water elementals the kraken can summon, and give the kraken storm sorcery levels.
Tarasque: Barbarian class levels for the rage feature, ranged attacks do nothing on a 5-6 on a d6, and have the magical carapace reflect cone spells as well. Furthermore, the roar of a creature that huge would cause massive thunder damage (easy 10d6). Lastly, consider bringing the Tarrasques hp regeneration.
Earth turtle: The Earth Turtle is a friend, he would never be evil :( Have him be the foundation of a moving city.
The kraken could also have a really nasty ability where it cancels movement magic, like teleportation, flight, and water breathing. It could also make the water do acid damage to humanoids every turn.
Tarrasque: Noooo! You can't just run away from me and circumvent all of my abilities! I am THE Tarrasque!!
Ranger on a flying carpet: haha longbow go brrrr
Tarrasque: ok then I'm going to ignore your attacks since I'm immune against piercing and instead go and kill a city of civilians.
@@crabobserver if this ranger has a flying carpet then they certainly have a magic bow
@@Hazel-xl8in good luck hitting over 25!
@@crabobserver at level 20, with a magic bow, hitting over 25 shouldn't be that bad should it?
@@timob1681 he will hit it, I'll give ya that.
But he still wouldn't stop him from killing a couple city's.
The Evil archmage, instead of transfering his soul to a phylactery and becoming a lich, managed to transfer his soul to the immortal body of the tarrasque.
Now that's a final boss
a 9 level spellcasting tarrasque does sound pretty terrifying. So you are trying to fly away from the Tarrasque with your carpet and it whishes you didn't have one...you start falling
Homebrewing monsters like these (to a degree) is certainly the way to go...it is always fun giving a monster a personal touch and offers a great surprise to experienced players.
I really liked the Mythic Monsters section in the Mythic Odysseys of Theros because I had felt underwhelmed with some high CR creatures. Have you guys run any of the named Mythic creatures in a combat encounter?
I’ve had a kraken as the BBEG for my 1-5 level campaign (I’ve reduced its stats greatly to be about CR 10), and I’m so excited to slap on the Hearts of the Kraken feature from the Theros book onto it. Fighting a hag coven on top on top of a weakened ancient kraken that had once tried to ascend to godhood before being imprisoned, possibly with its hearts already exposed when the encounter starts, is going to be epic.
@@GramGramAnimations Definitely love the video game boss fight feel it gives. Maybe could be good to have the hearts barely covered and describe weird pulsating parts on the kraken, and expose them earlier if a player takes interest and aims for them? Otherwise a damage threshold like described normally.
Either way sounds like an appropriately epic encounter
I ran Arasta recently. It was my player's first Mythic encounter and they were quite upset about the second phase since they went nova on the first and had spent most of their ressources.
The way she just nullified a haste spell with her web was SO satisfying. The main issue I have with her is that, as opposed to the other mythic encounters, she can only use her mythic actions if she still has her temporary hp, which can fall really fast.
@@bouboulroz I get that it's for CR balancing purposes probably (Nyx Weave does look so satisfying like you said) but I don't get the narrative reason for the Mythic actions stopping once her armour of little spiders are all killed
I haven't had the pleasure of running one yet, but they're definitely on my list. Especially Tromokratis, since my next campaign that I run will likely be a nautical setting.
I'm doing a Lich, so I decided to give him extra hp, a pit fiend, an archmage apprentice for extra counterspells and lots of symbol/glyph of warding spells in the lair. I hope it works.
Here's what you also gotta do. Glyph of Warding can be set with other spells, like Haste, or Fly, or Investiture of Flame, and then you can set these buff Glyphs up so that the bad guys can step on a tile or smack a book on a shelf and get some big, non-concentration buff. Put a bunch on one desk in the Lich's study, he sweeps all the stuff off the desk, and suddenly he's looking like a 3.5e Wizard, with Fly, Invulnerablility, Investiture of Fire, Haste, Far Step, Blink, and Blur, all up, with no chancd of them dropping unless the party can dispell the spells. Also, no countering the buffs because they've already been cast, they're just only now being triggered. Hope it goes well
don't forget wall of force
Playing with a lich with no phylactery is like gimping the lich. BUT just keep in mind the phylactery and it's a great super strong high level risk. It dies, and comes back 10 days later - gotta solve the puzzle of where the phylactery is and destroy it, otherwise the lich keeps coming and with hordes of enemies - heck, it's a level 18 caster with animate dead, it can raise his undead army himself.
About dragons, the main thing is lairs, give it a lair and it's a much harder to deal with situation - sure you can crowd control the dragon, but you can't stop magma from spewing because the dragon is stuck. And, if the dragon is out in the open, hit and run, or, better yet, breathe and fly. Do a fly by breath attack on a city, maybe smash a few enemies, but, situation got a bit dicey - the dragon runs away and comes back later. Some dragons might as well go in, breath attack and fly away immediately against big groups of enemies - make the party sweat to keep up with the 80ft of flight.
I don't really get the kraken - you do noticed that kraken has freedom of movement right ? It can break from any movement restraint or grapple with 5 ft of movement ignore bad terrain, AND it's immune to paralyzed and frightened conditions - this means hold monster doesn't work, most CC doesn't work ... it's not easy to stop a kraken at all, plus, it's most likely in water - it can totally force everyone in the party to swim, making the fight much harder. Even banishment doesn't work very well, sure you can get 1 minute to rest, but after that the kraken is back and it will be in the same condition as before - and, if you are in the sea, it can catch up to your ship fairly easily.
The zaratan has the ability to retract on it's shell to gain full resistance to all damage and can follow that with revitalize, for 5d20 extra hp, it's a turtle with a lot of hp, full resistance and healing - it's not that dangerous to the party but it can wreck a whole city easily while being the slowest grind to kill it. It's pretty easily seen that it was the objective of this guy to be tanky, and not really dangerous.
The tarrasque is the only one I agree 100% - it was gimped really violently from earlier editions when it had regeneration and could move through earth. If the tarrasque at least could burrow it would be ok, but it's a slow moving monster that probably will be alone, so it's bad, plus, it's dumb. Dumb monsters result in the DM playing them as dumb.
IMHO dragons and krakens are some monsters that tend to be smart enough to use tactics, and they have great ways to improve their fighting.
I'm someone that really takes on the tucker's kobolds ideology - monsters with brains can do crazy things, you can straight up kill a level 20 party with a group of kobolds.
On the Zaratan, I've seen a 5th level party dish out more than 50 damage a round.
Yes, resistance means it needs to be 100 damage, but is a 5th level can do 50, a 20th should easily be capable of 150 hp a round.
This means if the Zaratan retracts and heals in a single round (not two, and I do not remember if the retract or revitalize is even an action it can take) it has likely lost 25 hp and done zero damage to the party.
If it takes it two round, it has lost 100 hp, at least. IF your best strategy involves losing 100 hp, and possibly dealing 30 in response. You are not a threat.
@@Chaosmancer7 You have to remember that the zaratan is a cr 22 monster, with legendary action and resistance, ac of 21 and +17 to hit.
It's weak in damage for a cr 22, but it can go into it's shell and heal for 5d20 every turn after that.
When it's out of the shell, it can do up to 5 attacks a turn for 3d10+10.
BUT it's main strategy is throwing it as a siege weapon, it does double damage to structures AND can do 100 damage to every single structure in a 120 radius as a bonus action.
Against a high level party, the zaratan won't kill you, but you will have a hard time killing it, so just have another of the 4 elder elementals or smaller elementals helping in the fight and you have a pretty hard encounter - I'd recommend the earth elemental myrmidon (there is 1 kind of minion on the next page for each of the elder elementals).
Zaratan is basically a gargantuan tank with resistance to everything and that can heal, it's there just to eat up your resources during a fight.
@@dilsoncamacho4100 I grabbed the monster statblock just to check. And you are making a lot of assumptions that really need to be addressed.
Firstly, it has two attacks, unless it uses it's legendary actions. This is important because the retract, revitalize, and emerge abilities are all legendary actions that take two actions.
So, let us say this is the "big boss fight" encounter for the day. Party is a Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, Warlock and Wizard. We will assume a party between 11th and 15th level, so this should be an incredibly hard fight.
Cleric casts Holy Weapon on the Fighter who has a flametongue longsword, Wizard casts Animate Objects on 10 daggers.
They go a round of combat, and the Zaratan gets injured enough you choose to have it retract. It now has resistance, but we all have advantage. And it is making all of it's attacks with disadvantage and cannot move.
That round the Fighter decides to Action Surge. six attacks for 3d8+2d6+5 is 18d8+12d6+30 = 173 damage. Halved to 85. That alone wipes out all the healing you will do on your next turn. And yes, you have a 21 AC, but with advantage and the fighter at level 11 having +9? I can land those hits. And maybe this is a battle master who can use precise attack
This ignores the Cleric casting a fourth level spiritual weapon for 2d8+4 and using their cantrip damage of 3d12+4. Another 36.5
And the Rogue sneak attacking with booming blade and a +2 Rapier for 3d8+6d6+7 = 41.5 damage.
Ect
And then the Zaratan has to wait another round, because this round was just the heal. So we get another full round of attacks with advantage. And then is has to use it's legendaries to emerge, meaning it can't heal.
You gave me 2 full rounds of attacks with advantage, cutting your own damage potential, in exchange for 50 health, which disappeared in an instant. Against a level 11 party. A level 17? Which this should still be a challenge for? It stands no chance. It might last three rounds, but if the scenario is "fight the Zaratan" it isn't going to last long enough to be an exciting boss fight.
@@Chaosmancer7 look, my "assumptions" were using the stat block properly.
Your assumption is a battle in a vacuum with nothing around, no other enemies against a group of 6 AND not optimizing the zaratans capabilities. Exactly opposite of what I said in my last post.
You are even using some serious min max tactics to increase the damage there.
The scenario "fight the zaratan" is the same as the scenario fight the lich with no phylactery.
You are ignoring all the role play and only using the bare bones mechanics.
Lets say you have to fight a zaratan that is attacking a town you are in, with a few thousand civilians AND the zaratan has 20 cr 7 earth myrmidons on top of it's shell that are going to rush the city and kill people.
Now fighting against it is not really all that important as is saving people and making sure it doesn't reach withing 120 feet of the city.
Plus, if you believe it should be a "big boss battle" of the day, then remember that the DMG talks about 6 to 7 encounters a day - meaning this would be when your resources are already low.
AGAIN - use your monsters smart, play to it's strength and you can do a lot, throw them in a vacuum fight of burning resources and you will have a boring time against walls of hp.
@@dilsoncamacho4100 My first response got deleted but let us write again.
So, first things first. I took a group of level 11's against a CR 21 creature. This thing is supposed to be a challenge for a group twice this level. And, if you think a single buff spell and a concentration spell is "minmaxxing" then you're going to be very sad in the future.
But, let us look at this scenario.
Firstly, if you want to talk about smart monster tactics, the Zaratan is burrowing up from underneath the city. Meaning no one sees it and the party loses before they even know the fight starts.
So, let us assume that it can't burrow, because if it does, you lose. If it can't burrow, the wizard can stop it for 10 minutes with a Wall of Force. Ten minutes is as long of a combat as you want.
That was way one.
Let us say that the fighter can use a longbow. Cleric Casts Holy Weapon. Fighter can begin shooting at 600 ft. If the Zaratan uses all legendary actions to move, I think from memory that is 160 ft a round. That is about 4 rounds. Disadvantage is rough with an AC 21, but the fighter (at level 11 remember) even on their bow likely has a +6. If we assume even one strike hits for the first, then they action surge when the Zaratan is within 150 ft, assuming they hit about half the time. That is about 6 attacks for 3d8+2, 18d8+12 That is about 100 hp. 1/3 of the total hp Warlock can add a bit, the Rogue can add a bit, the Wizard ect They can likely kill a 350 hp monster. And once they make it stop to heal, they win.
And, round three
The issue isn't the Zaratan as much as the 20 creatures on it. The solution to that is using the three Casters we have to AOE, wiping them out while damaging the Zaratan. Which regulates this back to a 1v6 fight.
And, again. I'm using level 11 characters. I'm barely using tactics, and generally only using one or two spells. And I've given a hard shut down, a focus fire, and an AOE solution.
It just isn't threatening enough for a 17th level party. Heck, a 17th level Wizard can cast Meteor Swarm. That is 40d6, range of a mile. That is an average of 140 hp. The myrmidions? 120 hp on average. They are all dead before they even get in range for the other party members to start fighting. Let alone have to be threatened in the slightest
can´t agree more for the lich. I mean somehow my parties always end befriending these fuckers (like for real, if my main group were to throw a birthday party half the guests would be liches or other powerful undead mages at his point) but I would think my level 13 party could take their "land lord" (long story, we got an arrangement with a Lich they can use the lower levels of his lair as a base as a rewards killing an enemy of the lich) if I hadn´t made clear, that it´s not going to be the stock monster manual lich.
First of: spell slots of a level 20 mage, second spells get completely swapped. First level spells at will (looking at you shield). And then the spells get changed. The lich will have a ton of teleportation and far reaching spells. He won´t be caught easily. The lich will have something to get rid of that annoying Paladin, be it a magic circle against Paladins. (Or magic circle against the race of the Paladin. there is no way, the Lich gets caught of guard) the lich WILL have back up. The magic circle will sooner or later be broken (especially as it is a char save) but what about the glyphs of warding around it? The battle field against a lich is a minefield. Yes the HP are a joke, his security measures are not. That´s how I´d play a lich.
And dragons yeah. Black and Blue dragons are the only ones that will even hurt my party. As i homebrew them to have advantage on stealth checks (blue in the day, black in the night)
A well-prepared spellcaster should be the most terrifying encounter a party ever faces
Abuse simulacrum and contingency spells.
@@rafaelbordoni516 of course. A lich had centuries to prepare for adventurers to raid his lair. This thing will have everything the wizard spell book has to offer
My solution to your party befriending enemies (especially the BBEG) is that they cannot be sueded away from their goals. A natural 20 and a +93 persuasion cannot successfully get them away from their goal.
Additionally, my BBEG are not attracted to any gender, preventing them from being seduced, as is a common meme.
Just remember - your villains are more invested in their goals rather than a one night stand or having friends
Metalhammer1993 I think right from the monster manual: abuse the spell plane shift. It is essentially an unlimited source (as many scrolls as the Lich could have made) to summon 8 willing agents every few minutes (every few rounds if the Lich has pre-arranged its allies) to chew up the parties resources as they make their way deep into the Lich’s lair.
It’s hands down the best bad guy spell I ever use.
Henchman.. you're villains especially BBEG should have henchmen (zombies, cultists, lizard men, etc...). They need meatshields to distract and draw fire.
Especially lichs, they should essentially never be found alone
Tarrasque shows up. High level Ranger Monster Slayer: Hold my beer.
Or a low- to mid-level Aaracokra with a magical longbow and one or two bags of holding filled with quivers of arrows
@@akrinornoname2769 or a level one Aarocokra bard that just floats around and insults it to death.
@@drewberrycrunch1417 Wow I had to double-check that they had totally removed its regeneration 40 from previous editions. Its melee reach is also pathetic, making the "float around" strategy actually plausible. What a sad fate for the iconic monster.
@@akrinornoname2769 Artificers with the repeating shot infusion not only make the weapon magical but also gives them infinite ammo.
*party of monks with stunning strike*
Really like how yall give recommendations on how to homebrew the monsters to make em more of a challenge
Your dream Tarrasque sounds a lot like a Thunderjaw from Horizon:Zero Dawn.
Yup
HZD Thunderjaw is what I imagine would happen when a bunch of gnome scientists build on a dare to take on the real thing.
I have yet to nut up enough to actually fight that one. I'm good enough to take out one or two Sawtooths or the crocodile fuckers in melee, or one of the Bellowbacks, but I dunno, Thunderjaw scares the fuck outta me
@@atriumgamesmore4336 the trick for me was to use the arrows that knock components off. Once it's big guns are stripped away you can turn some of them back on it for massive damage.
@@atriumgamesmore4336 The trick is to shoot off one of its laser cannons and shoot it with that. Also dodge a lot.
Moral of the story, force cage is like really good use it
Far too many DMs miss the size of a force cage. 10-20 feet to a side won't hold an ancient dragon with a wingspan of 60-150 ft and an overall body length of 120 ft.
What people always forget is that, according to the book, the characters should be experiencing 6-8 medium/hard encounters PER DAY.
That means for 20th level characters, before they take on a lich they should take on 5 hard encounters or 2-3 other deadly encounters i.e. they should be fighting 2-3 liches every day (Xanathar’s Guide to Everything has tables for balanced encounters for various group sizes/levels) and yes obviously a level 20 party are going to completely destroy any monster of CR 20 to 22 if it is the only creature they come up against that day.
Before your final boss fight, you must must must use encounters that are going to weaken the party, get rid of some of their spell slots, use up some of their abilities, as well as make an environment where these creatures thrive because otherwise your legendary lich wizard or your ancient green dragon that has been the main villain of your campaign is going to be destroyed VERY easily.
Other things you can do to better your villain’s chances include giving them magic items, having minions on site healing them and enchanting the party or if you just want one big encounter, double up, give your ancient dragon a mating partner for two ancient dragons or make the lich part of a duo for two liches which can be both compelling, as well as making the final fight much harder. This does start to get into the DM vs players mentality so try to avoid that in terms of making the characters completely useless but the players deserve to have a hard final encounter to remember.
^
When you go to a channel for DMs and smell maybe 5 of your own vets.
Regardless of the adventure structure, players will actively save best abilities for the final boss, and so a final boss creature NEEDS to be able to stand up the the best the PCs can dish out.
I think giving minions is the absolute best way to make a fight much more challenging. Having one big monster is cool, and you can certainly make it both fun and challenging by adding some light boosts to its stats, but giving the monster some minions (preferably ones that are strong enough that the party can’t simply ignore them) can really help balance everything out. I think doubling up on some monster might get a little too ridiculous, but that depends on the monster. A pair of ancient dragons would wreck most parties in the first round if they both used their breath weapons, which would kill anyone except the particularly hardy characters. However, you can also make the fight have a primary goal that isn’t killing the boss. Then you can make the party’s attention divided between keeping the boss at bay and completing the primary objective. Closing a portal, completing a ritual, saving an npc, releasing a powerful ally to help in the fight, etc. All of those are good ways to distract the party from focusing everything on the boss.
Dungeon Dudes I agree I’m j saying these monsters (apart from the tarrasque where I get your point) aren’t rly supposed to be treated as boss encounters for level 20 characters so I was j trying to suggest how you could make the encounter viable.
Pretty new to dnd but wanna thank you guys for all the content out there, especially the class and mechanic related material. Really helped me learn how all the aspects of the game work together.
"Take a page out of Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica and make your dragons 20th level spellcasters"
Bruh, Niv-Mizzet is an obscene stat block. I actually use his stats as a template when designing BBEG dragons, rather than using an ancient dragon. The ancient dragons are the broodlings or something you fight on your way to the BBEG
I don't know much about dnd but I know a lot more about magic the gathering and I had to do a double take when I heard that too. Niv Mizzet is kind of a league of his own compared to other dragons. He's 16,768 years old and has spent most of that time JUST researching magic lol
@@TheMightyBattleSquid also he has the firemind
Time for a Zaratan from Space
Edit: Monty, that mecha-tarasque sounds like something the Izzet would build. Ravnica Campaign ending perhaps?
I've actually ran these monsters before (except the kraken because my campaign was entirely landlocked) and totally agree with them being underpowered, and here's how I dealt with each one.
With the Lich, I put it in a giant room where it's protected by a special wall of force that does not allow any energy to pass INTO the area where the Lich is staying, but it can shoot magical stuff OUT OF that area, so it's like a bunker that it snipes the PCs from. Meanwhile, I gave it a ton of minions (I used the minion rule from previous editions and had like 500 skeletons and 700 zombies in the room) and a few lieutenants and champions, like 12 Death Knights and 3 Nightwalkers. Also as a final "fail safe", the Lich summoned demons to help it. The Lich really only works well in a group encounter, running the Lich as a solo monster just doesn't work.
With Dragons, I actually homebrewed two more age categories on top of Ancient, again taking inspiration from earlier editions (3rd in this case), with Wyrm and Great Wyrm. Wyrms are bigger, can cast spells, higher AC, higher damage, more attacks per turn, AND their breath attacks ignore resistance (but not immunities). I also made them faster with their flying and gave them an ability that made them immune to be slowed or stopped while flying (they can still be restrained or whatever if they're on the ground).
With the Elder Elementals, I literally had them ONLY appear either in the Elemental Planes or in areas extremely influenced by the Elemental Planes, so like the Leviathan is deep underwater and the Elder Tempest is inside a thundercloud 2000 feet up in the air and whatnot. Also I totally agree with the Zaratan being incredibly weak, so I bumped its AC to 24, increased its HP to 800, and made it so that it isn't restrained when it goes into its shell, it just has a movement speed of 0, also while in its shell it's AC increases to 30 (19+5+6+3=33, so it's still possible to hit it for max level characters without depending on critical hits). And yeah, I made the retract a 1-action thing.
With the Tarrasque, I gave it a ranged spines attack that deals around 40 points of damage per spine and it can throw five of these per turn, I also gave it a shattering roar that deals thunder damage in BOTH a 60-foot radius sphere around itself AND a 100-foot cone, and finally I modified its bite attack (and only the bite attack) so that it has the capability to go through literally anything, including walls of force. Oh, and I took a page out of earlier editions (again) and made its reflective carapace also able to reflect back cones, so that prismatic spray is not only completely useless, it can end up being turned back against the party.
So in storm king’s thunder, they give you a statblock for an absolutely monstrous kraken. The book gives it legendary resistance and makes is a 17th level spellcaster with the spell foresight. This makes it a lot harder to make it fail saves and makes it so the players can’t just burn through legendary resistance
I was playing in a dnd game where we faced a manticore at lvl 5 with more hp then the base hp of the lichXD and we still owned it. Was a really fun fight though
Between stopping time, power words in general once saving throws have been lowered, curses inflicted, area of effects, summoning, Non-detection & greater invisibility as well as contingency spells, sequencers & things such as Tenser's transformation...protection from magical weapons as a spell cast & a lair rife with area of effects, glyphs, minions & quite literally a simulacrum of this....a Lich is going to make level 20 quake, I would think.
Nope, only one concentration spell so even if he would have a time to prepare he wouldn't achieve much by it. And after initiative is rolled Lich will be down almost immediately. Really what Lich need to do if he encountered 3-tier and above party is to run for his unlive as fast as he can
Maybe, if they had more than 100 health
Congratulations 🎊 Dungeon Dudes on the 200k subs! So well deserved for such excellent content 👏🏻 May your channel continue to grow 🍀 All the best from 🇬🇧
They have definitely earned that.
Hearing ancient dragons called weak for high level play after seeing an adult dragon absolutely TPK a battle ready party of 4 level 10s because pretty much everyone of them failed the wisdom save for its Frightful Presence makes me wonder how people play dragons....
Level tens vs level twenties is a large power difference, but agree with the general point.
Ancient dragons need to be multiple to fight a level 20 party...i already saw players kiling multiple ancients fighting toghter.
That's the exception and not the rule right there. WIS save is arguably most important in game... yes there are others, I said "arguably"
@@kevinsmith9013 I agree that it is quite a important save, but how is it the exception? An adult blue dragon's frightful presence has a DC of 17. That is still a pretty high DC for player characters whom have no proficiency on their wisdom saving throws. Because even with a +5 modifier (or advantage) you fail that DC on average.
@@arqueiroXD I have yet to play on level 20, but when I look at the ancient dragons statblock it sounds crazy to me that you would need multiple to take down a level 20 group.
Turned my Tarrasque into a Blastoise that knocks down flying creatures
Hey guys! New to the channel but just wanted to say you two have quickly become my favorite DND youtubers. I love the format of all of your videos and you always give well thought out points of view. Thanks for all your great work!
Awesome! Thank you!
A couple of instances come to mind. The first was a battle of a small army of 80 bandits of about 60 at or below the party level and 20 3-4 levels higher than the party and a boss 6 levels above the party. There were crossbow men and mages and the boss was a mage with a home brew spell (that nearly killed a player). Well with some preparation and the melee grunts failing their perception check they ran straight into a trap that the party set up that did WAAAAY more damage than expected and instakilled the lot of them, and thanks to the fact that the party had set up some smokescreen fires and a cloud kill spell the rest of the army didn’t see a thing (failed perception as well) so the party’s archers (who are very scary) just sat there at max range and picked off the guys off about 4 guys on the wall every turn and when the elite guys showed up they lasted about 2 turns.... including the boss. That was the first time we (the 2 co DM’s) realised that the party of 5 was scary and we needed to up our game or at least up the npc’s health and AC (the ranger currently at lvl 9 has a +18 to hit, +22 if it’s a favoured enemy. A basilisk didn’t stand a chance). The other story was the reason the party is now level 9. There was not 1 but 2 beholders (in different rooms and were magically trapped so they never met) the first was a fire eye beholder, if I haven’t on the fly adjusted the HP it would have lasted only 2 turns because of the ranger and his npc girlfriend so I extended its HP and let someone else in the party have the finishing blow. The second beholder was much the same thing where the archers took the beholder out from beyond the range of the beholders eyes (the next beholder lair will be MUCH smaller to bring the archers into range and let the melee focused guys have some more fun or at least be targets for the eye beams) idk why people say that the ranger is the worst class, put a bow in their hands and the archery fighting style and they are scary effective, if I let him (or he didn’t willingly hold back so the others could have fun too) the ranger could have soloed most of the adventures so far, and that’s not even bringing in the dragon they almost killed (they didn’t kill it because the ranger held back and there was a plot device for a peaceful solution that the party figured out and used. Very proud of our very not murder hobo’s)
If you want Power Word Kill to work 100% guaranteed against a foe with a massive pool of hit points, Polymorph them into a CR 0 creature first, then cast PWK. A polymorphed creature reverts if reduced to 0hp, but PWK doesn't do hp damage, it kills outright anything with 100hp or less.
I am sorry however your main point on why the Tarrasque is weak a force cage wont fit it. Reason it is bigger than 20 feet in some directions thus won't fit inside the cage so i am sorry but that won't work on it. Edit: Tarrasque is a Gargantuan monstrosity (titan) and the absolute smallest it could be is 20"20 and that is being generous
The kraken is my favorite monster in all of dnd. So when I throw a kraken at my party. I do a bunch of home brew to really make it a big challenge. Like for instance I make then three times bigger with a bung more tentacles and attacks.
You should try the Mythic version of Tromokratis from Mythic Odyssey of Theros. I had a good time running it.
bouboulroz I will look into that
@@merlinstrangetheaceofwands1050 Just be aware that if you use the mythic traits, the encounter is treated as two CR26 monsters when it comes to the granted XP.
bouboulroz this is going to be good
When I threw a Lich at my players (I think they were 17th Level at the time), I was so afraid that they were going to smack it down in one round. The solution I came up with was to give it personal guard comprised of zombified versions of some ancient heroes from the campaign setting, each of which was a 15th Level spellcaster. There was also a mechanic where as long as at least one of the guards remained, the Lich was protected by a charm that shielded it from all damage and spell effects. With that and a scroll for Time Stop, the Lich was able to buy itself some time to actually sling some spells around and wreak some havoc before they were able to take it out. 2 out of 4 players were dead/unconscious and the others were close at the end, and the players seemed to find the fight pretty satisfying
I wrote up a level 20 one shot meat grinder a while ago. It's based on the War of the Spark trailer and backstory.
The party is all level 20 planeswalkers stuck on the plane of Ravnica while Nicol Bolas and his army of blue metal coated skeletons swarm the streets looking for planeswalkers to kill.
Any class/level combo up to 20 is open to the players. Everyone gets one artifact, one legendary item, 2 items that can be rare, very rare, or uncommon, and up to 20 consumables/Cyphers/one use items.
What makes the one shot a meat grinder? Every time the party turns a corner, enters a room, or tries to take a rest they are attacked by 2d6 death knights, 1d6 liches, and 2d4 creatures mentioned in or from the Planeshift Amonkhet PDF. All with their HP maxed and their AC pumped up to 23 on account of the blue metal coating every zombie in the dread horde is covered in.
The goals are to survive the war of the spark by one of the following ways.
1. Kill Nicol Bolas.
2. Use the Planar Bridge device to escape to Amonkhet, kill Tezerret, and stop the flow of dread horde zombies from Amonkhet into Ravnica.
3. Destroy the Imortal Sun so that planeswalkers are no longer trapped on Ravnica.
4. Turn off the Planar Beacon so that planeswalkers stop getting dragged to Ravnica. This way when your current character dies the backup character you were gonna pull out next doesn't even spawn.
It should be noted that the Amonkhet equivalents of Bane, Azuth, Lathander, and Silvanus have all been zombified and are stomping around the streets of Ravnica as well.
Hero forge may be expensive but I was blown away at the variety. You can make ANYTHING
Give the Tarrasque the following ability: Antimagic Wave - The Tarrasque lets out a horrifying roar, followed by a wave of antimagic. This effect functions exactly as an Antimagic Field, out to a distance of 500ft, lasting until the end of the Tarrasque’s next turn.
I might also give it some sort of charge ability to then reach the characters who just fell out of the sky when their Wings of Flying suddenly gave out.
Sharpshooter fighters/rangers could still hit it from 600 feet away without disadvantage
Personal fixes, some of which were in the video:
Lich: Build as a high level caster character and add on all the lich bonuses. Ensure good preparation and a LOT of buff spells supported by permanancy. Apply cheesy use of spells and prep time within reason-ish.
Elder Dragon: Agreed, make it a high level spellcaster. Also apply kobolds. Smart kobolds. Kobolds are good.
Kraken: Don't make it a monster, but an entire encounter! Each tentacle acts as a creature with actions. The overall kraken has a total health pool, a BIG one, and damage to each tentacle also damages it. You don't need to kill the tentacles to kill the monster, but you might want to remove some or all of those attackers to make the job simpler, and you aren't punished for doing it since you still hurt the critter.
Elder Elementals: I... admittedly don't know much about these, but at least with this one you show I think the biggest weakness is the double cost legendary actions. Making them each one doesn't seem THAT busted? And if it is, like... it's an epic monster. It should be. Also defensive power being a bit high isn't as bad as offensive power being too high usually.
Tarrasque: One, give it a straight up flight negation aura or, if that feels bad, a powerful roar or, to call back to the source of the name, a noxious breath attack, that does less damage than it just rampaging for a turn but that also lets it knock things out of the sky. Either way, don't give it JUST a ranged attack but make it say no to what should counter it as a whole!
Also give it regeneration or, if you want to make a reference to another modern tarrasque in a silly but terrifying way, have it keep getting brought back from the dead by an Elder Brain. If someone somehow sees this new comment on a two year old video and gets the reference I'm trying to make I appreciate it a lot. ^v^
For the Zarathan an easy fix would be to have the Revitalise ability as 1 Legendary action instead of 2,
It doubles the speed at which it fights back at the party.
Making it a much more legitimate threat than when it costs 2 legendary actions.
The high level content in 5e is so poorly balanced. It's like they didn't even try.
I guess it is because they envisioned high level play to still have parties without any magical items. For some reason. Still, fly is a 3rd level spell and several classes have ways to get flying speed at some point before level 20.
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Agreed!
Take some notes from the Pathfinder Tarrasque stat block: In Pathfinder, the Tarrasque regenerated, gaining back 40 Hp every round and reducing all damage by 15. You could scale this back a bit for 5e, maybe regenerate 10-20 Hp per round. You can describe this and let it strike fear into the hearts of your players, and makes it more resistant to just getting wailed on. The other thing it needs, ranged damage, can also come from PF. Back in the old days, it had ranged spine attacks. Replace the Horn attack, or just straight up add one or two spine attacks with range (150/600). Have them deal similar damage to the horn or tail attacks. Increase its speed too, or let it jump better, or even fly. In PF, the Tarrasque got like a +40 on Checks made to jump, so maybe let the Tarrasque jump equal to it's Move Speed. Kinda defeats the slow, lumbering giant, so maybe let its weakness be mobility?
As an alternative to a Mecha Tarrasque, how about a Behold-arrasque? It's a Terrasque with Beholder eye stalks and abilities. That gives it 120 foot ranged attacks and the ability to shut down magic for up to 150 feet in a cone.
Ah yes the tarrasque. A monk can prone him at level 3, and instakill him at level 17 lul
@@marcdavis4509 he is bipedal
Anybody can kill it if they just convince a lot of people to attack it .
@@marcdavis4509 yes and the terrasque is bipedal
None of this is true.
@@marcdavis4509 oh you're right. For some reason it had smaller front limbs in ny head. But yeah no dm should let it get knocked on it's ass by a lvl 3 monk xD
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If the dragon is alone, don’t bother using legendary resistance against banishment because they’ll be back anyway as long as you are on their home plane.
(Any/all)
I once (3.5ed) threatened to change a tarrasques feats so it had weapon and armour proficiencies and give it a composite longbow. My groups version of "Rocks fall, everyone dies." is "The Tarrasque rips of the roof, it is wearing full plate, it points its longbow at you."
If a lich is fighting in direct combat, its completely messed up failure of the DM.
A few things with Tarrasque to really work that CR 30.
1) Give it back it's regeneration. It was literally the feature that made the tarrasque the tarrasque. If you wanna inflict true fear, remove the clause that requires one HP for regen to proc, as the old Tarrasque could famously regenerate from death.
2) You could give it a beam attack to mitigate range, or you could just give it a leaping attack. I'd say about 120' is well more than enough to prevent cheesing the fight and the idea of this giant beast plucking the party out of the sky one by one then shaking them around like a chew toy is more interesting than turning this melee fight into a ranged battle.
3) If the first two STILL aren't a challenge bring back the feature where it can crit your limbs off. That's going to start taking some rangers or casters out for a while while the cleric patches them up, but it might even force a retreat which is good because fighting the tarrasque is supposed to be a stupid thing to do.
For the giant turtle. Give it an aura of 'earth bind' and just say that it manipulates gravity in an aura around it.
Make the ground around it difficult terrain, where the party takes damage for moving over it. And give it a 'roll over' ability that it can do while it is in its shell, so that when they try to attack at advantage in its shell, they can get crushed.
Make the roll over ability a dex to dodge, or a 30 strength check to over power the turtle and stop it from rolling.
My DM put our mid-lvl party (cant remember exactly but we were between lvls 8 and 11) up against a tarrasque and made it into an environmental skill challenge combat fusion, trying to minimize damage to the city by luring it away from buildings, into kettles where we could wail on it, and eliminating its handlers (it was being controlled by some summoners). We were a ranger, bard, paladin, barbarian, a pet blinkdog-hellhound hybrid, and a pet gorgon, so we all had ways to pump damage but none of us had good battlefield control, flying, etc and we didnt coordinate very well. the tarrasque saved against the gorgon's paralytic breath every time and the blink dog was too fragile to get up close and be of any help, and of course the fire breath did nothing. DM gave it a stomping earthquake ability that made everyone prone since no one could fly. the ranger was chomped on, swallowed, and almost dissolved in stomach acid. my bear totem barbarian DIED and had to be revivified after going in to save the ranger. I tanked so much freaking damage. DM said me tanking and saving the ranger was the only reason it wasnt a TPK. It. was. HARD. and amazing. after we killed it we had a mini skill challenge to harvest rare organs and such to sell as alchemical ingredients and get a lot of money as part of the loot.
On high levels you need to build interesting boss battles with environment, lots of minions and events. As you said, a boss in 30 reach of a lvl 20 paladin, barbarain and fighter will take 100+ dmg from each of them on their first turn.
So I make my boss battles something like this:
- Every turn lair actions happen, even if the boss is not here yet
- The party enters the room and sees 1 wave of enemies - they are mostly melee brutes, with ok dmg and lots of defences.
- A few rounds later a 2 wave arrives. They are much more tricky, like spellcasters with nasty control spells or have special attacks like -str phantom assasins or auto-grapple+restrained on hit. Now players have to decide, if they want to finish wounded brutes first, or go for new targets. New targets can be quite away from melee players. 2 wave can come from behind and ambush player spellcasters and archers
- A 1-2 more rounds, and something in environment changes. It can be anything - poison/necrotic gas, a collapsing celling etc. It can be even positive effects. But it should make players move around once again. If needed send a 3 wave at the same time.
And then, after 6-7 rounds of combat check your PC status. If most of them are below 50% hp, some are disabled/weakened and they are spread around the room, then it's time for your boss to arrive. Make this moment dramatic, like a Lich starts with Power Word Kill/Stun or the Dragon catches most of the wounded PC in one breath attack.
In that exact moment they should feel "it's much more difficult that we were expecting, we don't know if it's possible to beat". Ofc your job is not to kill them and in the end they will most likely win.
And some extra ideas:
- When you are using waves it's easy for you to adjust combat difficulty. Send more/less monsters, give more/less time between waves.
- If your boss is still killed too easily, have a backup plan like a second phase. Ok, you banished the Leviathan, but that causes the massive storm and lots of water elementals to spawn everywhere.
I remember creating an encounter for a party of level 8 adventurers against a mummy lord, which should have been a decent threat against how the party was kitted out. To spare extra details let's say the mummy lord was bound to serve a group of baddies, these were low level humanoids who when the party encountered them would engage strategy and spread out, thus commanding the mummy lord to make ranged spell attacks. If the handler was killed the mummy lord broke free and would engage up close.
So the first thing that happened was the druid used wall of fire and knocked 4/5 of the humanoids into half health, and took off about a 1/3 of the mummy lords health.
I ruled because of this that the group (being essentially militia) would break ranks and panic. The paladin then used expert skills to off two humanoids quickly, that barbarian finished another two. The handler panicked and ran, at which point mummy lord woke up, only to get nuked by another fire spell from the druid. The party at this point, not knowing what it was kept it's distance.
The mummy lord started casting spells to kill the paladin which had the ability to off it at this point with two attacks, nearly manages it, but rolls badly on damage. The paladin uses misty step and takes it down to less than ten hp, the druid then finishes it with.... Create bonfire...
It was a disappointing encounter all in all, but the players used their abilities and strategized extremely well, the druid is a ghost wise halfling, who can communicate telepathically. The paladin is both a long time player and a military leader, the barbarian is... Just a badass. But they used the telepathy to communicate effectively and fairly and put this group to route. Honestly I was so proud of them my disappointment didn't last long.
A level 20 party of a Paladin, Wizard, Cleric/Warlock hybrid, Rogue/Ranger hybrid, and Druid faced an Ancient White Dragon and a Lv. 20 Eldritch Knight NPC. The dragon was pretty easily flanked by a flying Paladin and an Air Elemental while the Fighter NPC was pushed around by pushing Eldritch Blasts. Challenge rating felt pretty low.
A Pit Fiend was used in a similarly timed encounter with the same party, a Lv. 20 Necromancer with about ten coffins containing Clones in the same battlefield. This was the biggest challenge of the campaign. Meteor Swarm as the first spell on any life, defensive effects (like Feeblemind lashing out) at anyone trying to open the coffins, and an emergency last-life summon or transformation into a Pit Fiend still ended in victory with not one single death among the party. It dragged on, and one more Clone might've turned the tide, but by the end of it six of this Necromancer couldn't fell us.
That kind of validates Monty's idea that a Lich needs a small army of Archmagi to help things along...
Dr. Evil: I want sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads.
Monty: D&D needs a terrasque with fricken laser beams on its head.
- As you reach the top of the hill, you can now see the lich's castle. It sits atop an Island in the middle of a lake, but looking again, you notice the immense head and fins of the gargantuan turtle. you notice a second large shape on the water, occasionally you can notice one or two tentacles moving under water. And in front of the lair, you see the red winged shape of an ancient dragon.
- Holy shit GM! What's next, a tarrasque?
- Funny you should mention, because while you're taking in this sight, you sense the ground trembling as you begin to hear heavy stomps from something right behind you guys...
I loved that time my players fought a lich, and they sorrounded him and everyone finally thought "now we kill him" then i said
"You see Baldbar summoning his dark long sword smile
- Then come, show me what you've got"
And that was the homebrew, but it was a fun twist to the fight, miss that game. I was young and dumb, great times with my friends.
I love the idea of having the kraken be an obstacle in a mid level nautical campaign. Maybe blocking up a key water way and causing a nuisance until the characters are strong enough to defeat it, unlocking a new area of the map, and allowing them to get on with whatever ghosts and pirates are the actual big bads of the campaign.
18:43 The Pathfinder (1e, not sure if it's in 2e or got changed to be more like D&D 5e's) Tarrasque has a ranged attack that is nothing to scoff at and some decent speed it's base is 40 ft. but can increase to 150 ft. for a round., and it can jump, using Strength Modifier for Acrobatics and it has a +24 modifier, and during rounds where it's speed is 150 ft., that bonus increases to +87, meaning flying creatures aren't all that safe, since not only can it fling spines at them, but it can also jump up and potentially swallow a player whole who is flying.
though I think it's also got either the same or double the damage output, I had to keep reminding myself you two were talking about the D&D Tarrasque.
It's ranged attack specifically, has a 120 ft. range and can target up to six creatures so long as they are within 30 ft. of each other, as for it's damage "6 spines +25 (2d10+15/×3)", and it has a Regeneration of 40, along with it being a size larger clocking in within the Colossal size range.
Personally though I'd give the PF Tarrasque a Swim Speed and a Burrow Speed, that way hiding from it or running from it is a lot harder, and it can get away in a pinch, maybe digging a massive hole inside a city which could lead to new adventures, with the Tarrasque being an ever present threat, with the ultimate goal being to find it's lair, as maybe instead of a mindless monster it's an ancient guardian,
and it only wakes when commanded to by a master or when someone or something attempts to steal what it's guarding, sending it into a rampage, where it first attacks the would be thief then the place that is most familiar to them or maybe the place/person they hold dearest, the other thing is I'd make it's attacks magical that way it can hurt anything under the sun or not without issue.
1) Dragons: tail sweep, tail type impale or maim 17-20. Wing buffet 2d8 + 1d4 (spike) knockdown, footstomp- PBAOE 2d8 + stunning, Bite- 2d10 +fire,frost,acid. Claw- 2d8 17-20 (sword of Wounding). Lair- smoke, ice, acid, ammonia,
Just played around with a Tarrasque a bit. Two abilities that answer a *lot* of problems if you homebrew it:
Devour Magic: As an action, the Tarrasque can use its bite to attempt to devour an ambient magical effect, such as a Primastic Wall, Forcecage, or Darkness spell. It must make a Strength Check against the Spell Level+10 to do so. Recharge 5-6
Horrible Roar: As an action, the Tarrasque can let out a deafening roar in a 90 foot cone. Creatures within this cone must make a DC 24 Constitution Saving Throw or take 20d6 Thunder damage and become Deafened, taking half damage and not being Deafened on a successful save. Recharge 5-6
This helps it against a *lot* of battlefield control. The Roar gives it some range and feels believable for the Tarrasque, it's ability to devour magic makes sense with its carapace. Deafening spellcasters is nasty, and a Con save gets past some of the Evasion concerns you get with high level Rogues and Monks.
I just make stat blocks based on the real ones so it better fits the party’s level. For example, I had a level 13 ish party fighting a tarrasque in the middle of the game. Normally, they wouldn’t have access to the wish spell at this point, especially because it was a warlock, a sorcerer, and a blood hunter. So, I instead made the Tarrasque just heal by 3d6 every round, and gave it a crap ton of hit points. I also gave it some innate spells. It was guarding a powerful air-themed item, so they were all air themed. However, if I did it otherwise, I’d probably give it something like Fireball, Counterspell, Wall of Force, Modified version of misty step, and some special, awesome attack a la Eye ray or Mind blast.
I used a tarasque on my party and gave it two additional abilities to make it more difficult. An inhale that sucked you closer regardless of where you positioned (passing the save only reduced how close you where sucked towards its head) that turned into a breath weapon (auto recharge every turn), and then an anti-magic burst type effect that used 2 legendary actions but was only available every other round.
My brother who is the DM in our group had the kraken toss one of the barbarians a hundred feet away in an attempt to have it pose a challenge. We were level 11 and didn't have an arcane caster, but I was a druid and I got launched in the air by it only to comeback down on it's head as a t-rex via polymorph. That same brother and I made a simulator and if you had an Aarckocra cleric with toll the dead you could kill the tarrasque. It would take thousands of turns, but it's possible with a level 1 character.
200k subs, nice going Dudes! It’s been fun to see the channel grow as it has
In the defence of some of these: The Lich is very fragile, yes, but the idea is to put it at the very end of a long, exhausting dungeon filled with traps and various undead monsters, and then the lair itself should also be extremely dangerous in its own right. I recommend running a Lich by having its entire place filled to the brim with poison traps as they won't affect the Lich or its minion at all. Also keep in mind that it has access to spells like Dimension Door and even Plane Shift that can help it escape, as well as a Counterspell of its own.
As for dragons, most of them are extremely intellligent, but a lot of people don't always run them as such. A dragon would know to target spellcasters and archers over the tanky Barbarians and Paladins with 20 STR. Grabbing the archer with 10 STR and then dropping them from 200 feet in the air whilst waiting for the breath weapon to come back should be a no-brainer.
Krakens are indeed kind of weak, but do keep in mind that fighting lets a fair bit more difficult underwater.
I've never seen a zaratan used, so I can't really comment on it.
And yeah, the Tarrasque sucks, lol.
In a side quest in stormking's thunder, I, a lvl 4 rogue/lvl 1 druid, ripped a busted up wand of true polymorph off the side quest boss, and passed a DC 18 arcana check that I had no bonuses for and turned him into a sloth and avoided turning myself into a mindless flesh mass monster. My DM's face was priceless.
Unrelated to my other comment: one simple fix I apply to Gargantuan creatures with underwhelming stats is basically giving them DT as it exists in Fallout New Vegas, usually 10-15. So, as I do it, if the kraken has DT 10 and you roll a total of 14 damage, it only takes 4. I usually select damage types (such as force, or any damage type it has vulnerability to) that ignore the DT.
One thing I'd give the Tarrasque would be basically turning Reflective Carapace into Absorptive Carapace. On a 1-5, the spell is absorbed, granting the Tarrasque the ability to cast the spell as a legendary action, using it's own bonus to hit (oh, and also giving it decent to good arcane stats) and the damage that was rolled against it. On a 6, the spell is immediately reflected back at the party, using the same attack roll that hit it. That would let it stand up against casters, and give it a ranged option unless they use save spells.
For a more reliable ranged option, I'd also give it the ability to shoot spines at the party, as an attack.
A mean version of the tarrasque horn laser beam idea: it can replicate any spells that it had encountered in a reasonable timeframe (at the same level it was casted, similarly to reflect). So if the wizard gets trigger happy with those fireballs, the tarrasque will shoot fireballs back.
My tips for lich:
Your lich should have: Contingency (Resilient Sphere or something else), Glyphs of Warding around its lair, and if you really want it to be a challenge, a Shield Guardian and throw a robe of the archmagi on it (black). Make sure to put a Symbol or twelve on its throne
Get creative with the glyphs of warding: have them throw negative energy floods, have them set to go off in sequence to fire at specific verbal commands from the lich, so you have to silence it, or anti magic field and stand on a nexus of glyphs.
Have a glyph on its thrown throw up Globe of Invulnerability and have it Time Stop and drop a Delayed Blast Fireball on the party, the Mirror Image, then Blink, then drop a Circle of Death to break the time stop in the last round as it steps back in the globe of invulnerability. Have a glyph set to trigger Telekinesis against the paladin - a STRAIGHT strength check against the lich's spell save DC and must be dispelled to drop him. If he starts losing, have his shield guardian or golem or whatever run over and flip a lever to collapse the entire cavern - the lich isn't going to die if it takes itself out with you
yeah a stock lich without any of this nonsense is unlikely to even challenge a 10th level party (seriously, a 10th level paladin and fighter will kill it in one round)
Speaking of battles that turned out to be too short:
The very first combat encounter in Hoard of the Dragon Queen is eight kobolds, and PC have an ally in that combat.
When I was running it, I dialed the encounter down to six kobolds. It took them two rounds to stab the party to death.
Good initiative rolls, plus the use of pack tactics, plus two crits, and we just had to restart the game.
My suggestions; For the Lich: undead army of minions, Ancient Dragon: brood of young dragons and army of kobolds (throw enough kobolds and any party will fall), Kraken: Attack the ship not the crew (ships only have like 150 HP and are super hard to fix), Terrasque: Give it the tail spikes it has in Pathfinder (6 attacks per turn with a range of 120, can attack multiple targets as long as they are within 30’ of each other)
Lich:
I think you're supposed to run a lich kind of like a night hag, where its difficulty shines in not the combat, but the Lich's constant persistence and ability to avoid being stopped.
You "kill" a lich and it comes back 1d10 days, and the Lich can attack the village again. the party only truly beats the lich if they beat its Phylactry
Ancient Dragons: Ancient dragons have a variant rule where they can have up to 6 spells prepared (can be casted at least once a day each) and be up to 8th level, then slap on a crap ton of "you can't catch me" spells, maybe consistently try flying away and utilize the cover of your Lair or something.
Especially use that flight and maneuverability to strike down say, a cleric or a squishy boy with your attacks.
Krakens: Yeah they dont magic resistance, though tbh I don't think hold monster can work against it, provided that it's both immune to paralysis and has freedom of movement :Y
But yeah I guess it can be cool to charm a Kraken with dominate monster and destroy the cult that worships it and 100% this thing gets screwed by banishment. But I do agree that it's probably better as an enviromental monster for an adventure hook, and more of a mid level boss.
Zaratan: outside of its ability to level the entire earth and obliterate all structures. With siege monsters + 100 damage on all structures. Yeah it its probably more of a natural disaster than say a final boss tbh.
Tarrasque: Same thing as the Zaratan actually. Especially it being unaligned and having like a 3 intelligence, I don't think it'll even bother attacking the party, and if it sees them as a threat, it just straight runs away.
Everyone flies and everyone has reach, it can't retaliate much, but yeah, its better destroying a town or something.
Here's a few ideas for giving the Tarrasque some ranged options: let it tear huge chunks out of the ground to throw at a target it can't otherwise reach, perhaps allowing the Tarrasque to do so in place of one of it's normal melee attacks. Let it have some sort of incredibly powerful roar that dealt sonic damage & can deafen targets within a certain range of a 360 degree circle around and above it which could perhaps also serve as a sort of defense against archers by possibly causing the roar to generate enough of a "shockwave" that it would blow any arrows or other projectiles out of the sky before they could even reach the Tarrasque. Or as perhaps more of an odd little twist, maybe it had swallowed an insane mage (or instead make it a Lich that was in no danger of dying to digestion, possibly due to having cast a spell on themselves to protect against the Tarrasque's stomach acid) whole, but the mage is still very much alive and is actually casting *buffs* on the Tarrasque (or is somehow casting offensive spells at the party by aiming them out of the Tarrasque's mouth!), possibly necessitating that some of the party intentionally get themselves swallowed in order to deal with the insane mage that was buffing the Tarrasque while the rest of the party was trying to deal with the Tarrasque itself.
I also put a kraken up against a mid ranged party and I'll never forget how they did it. The party was doing the tropey "escort the villager" quest and had to take a boat. Along the way a kraken appeared. The party's resident wizard made a wager with me that if he could one shot it, the party would receive some form of treasure. I agreed and the wizard slipped me (the DM at the time) a piece if paper with "I cast banishment". To this action, I agreed but stipulated that he had to make me laugh while doing the spell. The wizard said - "I'm about to strike this foul beast down, but I'm not a bard. Abra, kedabra, alakezam! They got a "trident of posiden" out of it. Overall, it was pretty funny.
Pathfinder handled the tarasque phenomenally. It has immunity to fire, acid, most debuffs, super high saving throws, spell resistance, the ability to jump super high (+87 on acrobatics made to jump, dear god) and it can shoot spines from its back, regeneration, in addition to all the abilities they talked about.
Need a creature worthy of CR 30 or more? I've got three words for you.
•Ancient
•Elder
•Shadowdracoterralicholderain
An ancient shadow dragon that binds itself to a phylactery, has it's mind replaced with an elder brain that then resides within its maw, forces a high level caster to cast wish on it to fuse it with a tarrasque, and finally has a beholder magically stitched into the front of its skull...roll initiative 20th level characters.
I plan on doing a one shot with a 5e ancient red dragon and decided, this dragon needs 3.5e feats and spells. This ancient red dragon is gonna cast a spell before it monologues to change it's breathe weapon to poison damage from fire so it's a Con save and not a Dex save. Metabreath feats will include lingering and clinging breath, it gets it's breath weapon back on it's 4th turn no roll needed. No lair actions, but it's immune to polymorph, paralysis, and spells that put it to sleep, and fire. I'm really excited to see how this plays out.
Now correct me if I’m wrong but a force cage creates a 20x10 ft cage. A tarrasque is a gargantuan beast. So just make it +30 ft tall. And the banishment on the kraken would only send it to a demiplane for a short time before it reappears. Like I said, correct me if I’m wrong if I get the spell effects wrong. I agree that homebrew should be used to buff some of these monsters, just wanted to point some things out
You are absolutely right about the forcecage. Most of the monsters they listed don't fit in a forcecage. The Tarasque is a 50x70 creature.
200k! Y’all deserve it man. The channel is beyond excellent!
Thank you so much.
I have fix for the dragons in general, and it's that you give them spells. For example gold dragons are known to study magic and spells, yet the monster manual doesn't give them any spells to use. I would give gold dragons a wide range of wizard spells, Cooper dragons can get illusion spells to help with their pranks, silvers maybe get some ice or paladin like spells, bronze could use lightning and water spells, and brass could use spells that will convince people to stay and chat with it or not to fight it. Chromatic dragons don't really bother to learn spells, but it wouldn't hurt to give them some. Examples would be Fire spells for red dragons, ice spells for white dragons.Lightning and thunder spells for blue dragons. poison and plant spells for green dragons, and for the black dragon give it water, acid, and spells that will help it stay hidden and stalk it's prey. If spells aren't what you're looking for, or not helping make the dragon stronger, then I would recommend giving your dragon an "Amulet of Supremacy."
The "Amulet of Supremacy" is an amulet that a dragon can make, and can only be worn by those with dragon blood in them. It makes the wearers spell dmg and breath weapon dmg do the maximum amount of dmg it can deal.
For example in the video they tell use that a ancient red dragon's breath weapon does 91(26d6) fire dmg, but if the dragon wears the amulet, it will always deal 156 fire dmg when is uses it's breath weapon, unless of course your party succeeds the save throw or is resistant/immune to fire dmg.
Another way to solve this, is simply user the rule of rare magic items in the world. Our party tended to be much dependent on magic Items on the main campaign. And once here and there our DM can't DM on our usual Saturday game. So we replace that session with a Boss Smash session, when the campaign characters are living and playing in some kind of collective dream where they are fighting some interesting creature or creatures. The thing is... the characters can only count with less then a handful magic items each, preselected or picked by the players, under rules like:
For a level 10 party each of you get 3 uncommon items and 1 rare item, and all the items must be unique across all party members.
It gives some magic item presence, but don't make them relay too much on items. Most classes still can't fly or be super versatile and also effective simply with less magic items.
Another "tool" for the DM is to burn resources before the end battle.The reason spell slots are several and come back with long rest, is because they should help face several different problems. Create a chain of encounters, puzzles and challenges that don't allow a long rest, is usually enough to burns several big spells in order to the party survive. When the end battle comes, besides the magic resistance, the legendary resistance, lair actions also, those resources would be depleted or close to it. What make sense, because if I was a big evil ruler or presence as any of the listed on the video, I would lay many resource draining lethal level of obstacles before a thread can get to me.
As for fixing the Terrasque
My lvl 20 players wanted to fight it. I realized before the fight that it was hopeless, so I made it hopeless. First off, I gave it 5 legendary resistance instead of 3. 2nd, I gave it expertise against any spell that requires a saving throw. 3rd, I gave it a poison breath attack, that of an ancient green dragon. Lastly, I gave it the effect of a beholders eye, but as far as it can see. Now it’s CR 30
In my setting, Tarrasque is able to earth glide like an elemental, and unless the party lures him out, his lair is underground, so he can just glide to the ceiling and attack from above. I've had him chasing the party the whole campaign.
My DM falls into this all the time. Pitting one big bad vs a party it will almost always lose due to action economy. Happened with a Minotaur recently. We held it in place and railed on it. 3 rounds =dead.
My solution for a tarrasque was to make it A. an intelligent celestial, B. Able to shapeshift (not polymorph as actually killing it's false form would revert it rather than kill it.), and C. giving it a 26d12+26 radiant breath weapon. Everyone thought it was a gold dragon for a large portion of the campain, but when they failed to stop a demonic incursion, the trumpets blew and the truth was revealed.