I'd offer a rather limited definition: a DMPC is an NPC that allows the DM to also be a player. This means that an NPC that sticks with the party every single session doesn't have to be a DMPC. To prevent a regular NPC from being a DMPC, a DM can: 1. ensure that it doesn't solve puzzles or social encounters (much easier if they don't speak and terrible Int and Cha); 2. let the party control it in combat, unless they specifically ask you to do so; 3. target the DMPC if a party member has to die, especially as a result of a social encounter (e.g. Xanathar must disintegrate someone, or a hostage needs to be taken). In other words: a tool, not a character.
A DMPC is an NPC the players want to be brought along on the adventure and ran by the DM in combat... Tasha's actually has a system called sidekicks which is an interesting way to make a DMPC as other than the Warrior I think they are all flat weaker than a PC of their level (after about level 3 as some of the available monsters have a lot of HP)
@@harrywhiteley89 You make a good point about that. Sidekicks ARE part of an official rulebook. Agree with companions/henchmen/DMPCs (whatever you want to call them) or not, there's obviously demand for not only being able to have major NPCs play more of a role, having more personality and development, and more importantly to have structured rules regarding when and how they can be implemented. If they're not railroading the party (or otherwise carrying the party), I don't see what the big issue is. Should a DM just not roleplay any of the NPCs then? It's one thing to give examples of good and bad implementation, but I think it's a bit much saying that the mechanic ITSELF will "destroy your DnD". @RC Schmidt Exactly. They shouldn't be carrying the party. If DM's want to make NPCs feel heroic (example: wanting to portray a King or Queen as someone who "leads from the front lines, rather than cowers in their fortresses"), I generally like the "off camera method". Outnumbered in forces, the NPC knight commander asks the players to aid in a strategy they hope will turn the tide of an ongoing conflict. The players are tasked with luring the enemy to a specific location and holding so that the knight commander's forces can attempt to encircle and route the enemy. Whether this succeeds (or not) is reliant soley on the performance of the party. They have their own smaller conflict, but it's given added weight by the stakes involved. Everything else happens off camera, but the NPC is never actually involved in the players fight (because they're somewhere else). The NPC might not die themselves, but how many troops they lose could be how you RP the overall results of the encounter.
We have only ever had one DMPC and they were a half orc fighter with no real plotline. The DM created them because me and the other players all had low AC and low HP when we first started the campaign. After a certain level the half orc left us and has become a reoccuring fun NPC for our characters to talk to.
That's a good philosophy, although I refer to them as enhanced NPCs. It's not dissimilar to using a retired PC as an NPC eg [Spoilers] Vox Machina appearing in Critical Role campaign 3 or Arkhan the Cruel in the Descent into Avernus module. I would say that their only plot motive should be to help the party for a mission and then go back to their life.
Sounds like a rare case of DMPC done right. I created a DMPC for an old campaign of mine (home-brewed WH40K before Dark Heresy) because stupidly back then I had the philosophy of creating a story that would happen if they didn't interact with it but it's up to them how they affect things. They totally lacked any characters with any sort of knowledge of the Warp, and they were determined to go into said warp, and I didn't want to just say "you die, torn asunder over an eternity and going mad in a flash" so added a limited unsanctioned psyker to help. After they got out they said after the game the NPC was a Mary-Sue and made them feel redundant. Cue the blue screen face from me. It kind of felt like they wanted the rollercoaster despite being too short for the ride, then complained at the extra straps keeping them safe. I certainly gave plenty of warnings that following the Big Bad into hell on their home turf wasn't going to work out well, and they seemed eager to prod everything, and back then I was too eager to be a people pleaser. Now, 20+ years later, we're playing Mothership, where doing dumb shit gets you killed (even doing everything well will probably still get you killed) and they seem to still enjoy my games, so yeah, totally agree DMPCs mostly suck. Apart from when PCs decide a disposable NPC is now the most beloved mascot, and they tell you that they must come with the party at all times. If the PCs genuinely delight at interacting with an NPC and want to roleplay every. single. camp. and. bar. conversation, then I'd say go for it but come up with a reason so they don't get extra party member privileges (extra rolls, actions, attacks etc).
If you really feel like the party is missing a role or is too small (sometimes it's an issue for a prewritten adventure or for what the DM has in mind) then sidekicks from Tasha's are a great substitute. Have a player run them in combat, let them be a voice for DM input out of combat. Sidekicks are balanced to be support for the team instead of pulling focus away from the PCs.
I’m in a similar position. All my players are martial classes. I had another player who was a Wizard/Cleric who since left the game so I did some jiggery-pokery and now I’m playing that character lol
In my first campaign ever I experimented with DMPCs, but all of them became npcs by now except for one: a human wizard. There are 2 reasons she stayed: 1. She has utility spells, but not the same that players have access to (Leomund's Tiny Hut, for example). 2. One of the players seduced her as a joke, so it became pretty damn hard to justify her not being with other players.
I am a father who DMs for my two sons. They like for me to have a character so we can all get gear and level up together. I let the boys choose all important decisions but I pitch in when it makes sense or the story stalls without diminishing their leadership of the story. Using your analogies, my DMPC is more like Gandalf. I give some guidance on where to go, I might block the big bad on the bridge, but I mostly step away when the party is in the thick of it.
I have a similar experience. My wife and kids wanted me to DM them but after they made their characters they (mostly my wife) wanted me to make up a character also. Because they were only three characters I asked my wife and son to role up two characters each and my daughter only being 8 at the time I just thought one character is enough for her. I hear people say players should never play two characters and just use one. I have never experienced any issue with multiple characters for a player. I play Ad&d 1e and death can come from around any corner, so having a proper size party is very helpful. None of the them chose a cleric so I just riled up a cleric and she just sticks close to my sons wizard. Kind of like a glorified henchman.
Im about to do this as well, i have a young daughter that i want to introduce to the D&D starter sets. Unfortunately those games require around 4 players to be balanced properly. so i plan on putting my "DMPC" in the party, maybe a sidekick and a pet, to fill out the group, But still letting her make all the important choices.
One recommendation I would add for the Forever DM: don't just beg one of your players to run a 1-shot or short campaign. Instead, work to _mentor_ them. They'll be more willing, more comfortable, and ultimately a better DM for you because of it.
I agree completely. Got one of my players who likes to run one shots for me when I am feeling tired. He gets very excited when he finds one he wants to run. He uses me as a reference for rules, but has become quite confident in running his games.
I did this, and we now trade off DMing. I play the NPCs that we make, and it helps to make the entire campaign feel more collaborative. As long as the DM is not a forever DM because of ego (these guys can't run this), then if players are just scared to DM they need to get over it and tag out. You are a group, and as long as you are not overly possessive of the world, and are okay with them expanding it, you should let them run a few games, then trade off.
My players have literally dragged like 6 of my NPCs into their party and they love having them around because of the separate personalities I gave them. They each have a story that can be explored (one of them is actually being explored atm thanks to the party taking a huge interest in it) and the party likes that potential
I love the DNPCs in in our game too! Our DM is the BEST. They are all seperate people with individual personalities and backstories. I honestly don't know how he does that, handles all of our storylines, the overall story arc of his world, AND work a full time job! I've GM'd games and had GMNPC's -- and never had any complaints either (although, seriously, I've never tried to handle as many as my current DM). I would be very sad if all of our DMNPCs went away.... several are romantic interests, others are just good friends of the party.
My intention was never to have a DMPC, but my party would drag a random npc everywhere until he was basically a part of it. Though I did keep him 2 levels behind everyone else and really only spoke when spoken to. It was organic and really filled in the missing roles in the party without taking anything away. The party's love for this guy is what is keeping him on board.
YES! I love it! I have a similar character, but instead of being kept weaker than the party she is Lv. 20 with total and irrecoverable amnesia (beyond even a Wish. It makes sense in-setting). So she "levels up" by the party discovering or teaching her things. So far, they have taught her to defend herself with a staff and found that she can float in place but has no control over it (which terrified her). She is no more involved than the party makes her. They are welcome to drop her off at any time, they literally revived and requited her themselves. And hoo boy, they love trying to figure out what secrets she might have! (Not much, really. Like I said, total amnesia). Kinda like if you took Samus in Metroid Other M, but without any memories whatsoever or even knowledge of what a Power Suit is.
When I was running CoS, there were three NPCs in particular that my party fell in love with. Ireena, Doru, and a homebrew add on (a dog. In r/CurseofStrahd, people call the dog Lancelot, but I named them Ryaba after a Russian Fairytale). My party, when I had to bring up the ally to them decided that they wanted the dog. Mind you, the youngest player was 17, turning 18 and my oldest player is in their 40s. And they all got excited like 12 year old children at the thought that Strahd's enemy was a recently awakened dog with Paladin and Warlock classes that was always excited and loved belly rubs.
That was my experience too except I tried to control them during combat too. Way too much work. This time, I'm only doing the personality side of the NPCs. I'll let my players do the rest and they can decide if it's worth it or not. 😅
I definitely think Gandalf in LOTR could be considered an NPC to the fellowship. He gives exposition and dialogue. He leaves, gets imprisoned, and then comes back. He "dies" in order to give everyone more motivation. He's a deus ex machina for the fight at helms deep, faramir at minas tirith, and frodo and sam at the volcano.
Yeah, Gandalf is the DMPC, and for narrative games he, and possibly even Frodo (at least in the movies, not the books) are the perfect examples of DMPCs that could work in a narrative tabletop. They either exposit and save people's asses, or they are there to have the shittiest job.
@@LupostehgreatI suppose you're right. He's a lot more involved with directly helping the party, but he acts a lot more like a DMPC would than a normal PC. It's hard to say I guess.
@@travisdacon9480 so I could see an argument for DMPC; the boundaries between essential NPC and DMPC have to involve the DM's investment in the character. A capable DM can absolutely have a DMPC, and the party would never know they are that. They would just assume they are an essential NPC. So much of this stuff is subjective as all hell, and varies table to table (some tables despise any and all story elements being introduced, whereas other tables can have massive parties of DMPCs and suck it all up and love it), but I think a solid argument could be made for both Frodo and potentially Gandalf being a DMPC, just 2 different flavors that can be made to work. The dude who knows everything and fucks off when the party needs to stand on its own, and the dude who does the job of basically being a plot device the other characters have to make decisions around and doesn't get to do a ton of cool stuff but provides weight to the story.
As I've probably mentioned here before, I DM a 5e game for my kid and their friends. They're currently playing a Bard, a Warlock and a Rogue. I gave them a Mastiff Companion that I decked out with the Warrior sidekick class to fill the tank role. Admittedly I have used the pooch to "nudge" my players in the right direction if they were struggling with a puzzle once or twice, but imo nothing excessive. It's been a good compromise for us so far.
@@DungeonDudes Great video. Did I zone out in item 2 when you talked about sidekicks? My crew lost a player, and I'm kind of happy because I want us to play with sidekicks, and we have a really good reason now.
I did something similar. I gave a party a blink dog healer sidekick. He would come to lick wounds (cure wounds) or occasionally sneeze (fairy fire) but that's it. It helps that blink dogs only speak blink dog, so the party just has a magical pet. He died in a boss encounter and was eaten to the bone by rats, but the players decided they wanted him back and paid almost 2000 gp to get the dog resurrected.
the first campaign i played in was almost entirely barbarians. the second campaign was 3 rogues and my wizard. both games were chaos, both DMs had a love/hate relationship with combat.
Kelly and Monty: you can be totally fine without a healer Wilhelm with 2hp, running away from a contaminated monster: I am not fine, guys! Meanwhile, Wilhelm has several healing potions on his person.
Personally I feel like it is appropriate to have a DMPC when the players actively ask you to have one. I was In a really small group, It was just me and a friend, and I wanted to RP as a dedicated healer, so I just told the DM "Hey, can you make a character and help us out a bit? or maybe a guard can join us or something"
For those really small groups, DMPCs work far better. And since the biggest pitfall, the way I see it, is the DM prioritising their own fun, if the players are the ones who want it, it's actually something to consider.
I think DMPCs work in a few key cases if they're handled well with finesse, because obviously anything that's poorly handled is going to make for a bad experience at the table. One of my favourite ways to use a DMPC is to create a character who the party forms a bond with, and becomes attached to and then ultimately that character they've been adventuring with, who they think is their friend... turns out to actually be the ultimate villain of the story that betrays them near the end of the campaign. It makes for a much more personal connection between the party and the villain, as they now feel genuinely betrayed by someone they thought was their friend.
My brother has always been the DM in every group. He has never actually been able to play for years. He asked me if I could try out DMing and it totally changed our whole family. Now I run a full home brew world campaign with 6 PCs. All of us meet up twice a month to play. It's been some of the best times I've had in years.
My first ever game was with a bunch of buddies in highschool. Our buddy who dmed made a pc so he could teach us better. It was honestly essential, helped alot of us who had no clue what we were doing
My group is small (just myself and someone else). I agree with dungeon dudes here - very important NPCs, not DM PCs. It's all about mindset. We function as a group of one player character with four NPCs (that the player controls and manages for combat).
My partner is going to be running a campaign for just me. Any tips on making a 1 to 1 campaign work ? Any and all advice would be appreciated. Combat, non combat etc
@@Demonheero360 I run a one-on-one for my partner. My partner's character has a sidekick that I run, though she will absolutely take suggestions/orders/etc from their character. The line I try to balance is making sure the PC has enough information/support, while still making sure this story is About Them - they're the protagonist. From a dms perspective I'd say don't be afraid to play to your strengths.
Same for me several years ago, but when we finally got more players and i tried to retire my dmpc my players refused to let me lol, they liked him to much despite me continually trying to retire him.
When I first transitioned from player to DM, I had a DMPC for sure. In our group of 5, we would switch out DM duties often. There were 3 part-time DMPCs, depending on who felt like DMing. It just felt more cohesive to keep 5 party members together all the time instead of trying to explain away the absence. As long as everyone at the table is on board with the concept it's not really a problem. It actually allows more games to get played. Sessions don't get cancelled when the DM is feeling burnt. Some one else just steps in. Plus with more weeks off, burnout is less of an issue to begin with.
As a DM who has run a fair amount of DMPCs, I want to make a few points: The most common reason for me to make a DMPC is because the group only has two or three players, and the game really does get harder with a small party. The other common reason is that it's a relatively short or not-that-serious adventure (like our "not enough players can come tonight" backup campaign, or the Level 16 dungeon run), and so it's just a good time to break out a crazy build and have some fun. I always discuss it with the players before the campaign starts and build it to complement their PCs. I'm pretty good at separating out DM and player knowledge, but DMPCs do stay out of puzzle-solving and take a low-key approach to roleplaying and party decisions (though they may offer an opinion, based on their characterization). Assertiveness usually is a negative trait in DMPCs. For combat, they tend to make obvious actions, but I'll also ask the players what they want the DMPC to do in the fight. If someone's PC is elsewhere or gets paralyzed or something, I'll hand over the reins on the DMPC so they have something to do. This, in my experience, makes the players feel like the DMPC is a part of their team, rather than an outsider forced on them. With my most successful DMPC, she once two-shot a major boss through enormous quantities of sneak attack damage, and the players CHEERED because "we did it!". (That DMPC worked really well because she could put out enormous damage, but only with set-up or the party's aid, so for her to perform well, a team effort was required.) While many of your descriptions of why a running a DMPC is different from running a PC are accurate (it is, indeed, hard to enjoy solving a mystery that you wrote), the claim that "you can't give yourself a challenge in combat" is absolutely false. You may know what the enemies are likely to do and what their strengths and weaknesses are, but that's a long way from actually beating them, especially when dice are involved. (One PC can rarely win a whole encounter on their own anyways, so you're still dependent on the regular players' PCs and decisions to emerge victorious.) It can actually be a lot of fun to put down a hard encounter and say "I don't know how we are going to get out of this one, but I'm sure we can figure something out." This is doubly true if you are running a pre-written module or adventure, because there is another layer to it, as the DM running the DMPC didn't actually create the challenges - a separate author did. There can definitely be a place for DMPCs combined with "okay, guys, I am running this adventure exactly as written" or "I am going to run the monsters as ruthlessly deadly as possible, let's see if we can beat that." (DMPCs probably work best for combat-heavy or dungeon-crawl type adventures, rather than roleplay-heavy or intrigue ones, since the mechanics do more lifting there.) Now, DMPCs are not for everyone or every campaign. They can DEFINITELY go wrong. I personally have a good ability to separate my DM and player knowledge, and I have a group that trusts me to not cheat or steal their agency or use the whole thing as an ego trip, but not everyone has those factors. That said, I do think it's a bit harmful to run around telling newer DMs looking for advice "NEVER DO THIS BAD THING AND YOU ARE BAD IF YOU DO IT" when it can be a legitimate technique (especially if they are running a small, inexperienced group).
I`m just giving you standing applause, because YES. DMPC is a tool, you can cut some meat with a knife or you can stab a person with it. It`s really easy to abuse that level of power, but i think it`s completely wrong to say that *no one person ever* had a dmpc done right, and that everyone who does this is *bad* . I have a dmpc in my first campaign, which is still running, simply because I wanted to have my own _constant_ character. To have something unchanging and _mine_ in an official setting where everything is not a my creation, and to have a connection within the party. It works out pretty well, my fighter is not a dashing hero, he`s more shy and silent, he knows something about the world, but definitely not everything. Mostly, he`s just here. And recently I`ve been abandoning him more and more in terms or roleplay, to the point where one of my players expressed concern that he doesn`t feel like a character anymore (which is very sad). And I agree that DMPC should never be forced, but it`s nothing wrong in them occasionally shining and having their own moments, if it doesn`t hurt the group. If everything, it can make this character feel more like a part of the group. Like, DMPC kills a demon who had a long history of confrontation with other pc and basically steals an important kill? Awful. DMPC kills a monster in some random encounter? Why not. I think it`s more plausible to give NPCs and DMPCs their victories too, otherwise they would feel like a cardboard background for the party. And of course you should never kill a huge danderous monster in one turn this way (thus robbing a whole group of a win), but I would say that one-turn-kills feel bad in general, regardless of if a pc or npc/dmpc does it.
Yep, I agree with all of this. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with a DMPC. It's how it is used. You can absolutely do this. And all of these examples they use "THAT COULD BE A PLAYER CHARACTER REEE!!!!" K, but if nobody WANTS that, then it can be an DMPC if it is necessary. I would argue circles around these arguments against a DMPC because it all boils down to A) intent and B) skill separating meta knowledge, which any good DM should be able to do anyway.
I use DMPCs because I only play with my ONE player and don't want to force them to play all 4 party members so we split them between us. Never has it been an issue at our table.
Completely agree on all points. Very well said. Besides, depending on how you go about your DMPC, it may add comedic relief to the party - on top of what the players create. Case-in-point: Narayana - the DMPC I am running in my Shadowrun campaign is a 12-meter (approximately 40ft) snake which by now has become a bit of a pet for the party in addition to being their mage. And yet, even though he can speak and is pretty intelligent, he is still but a sentient animal - and acts like that as well. To the point after having gotten pinched in a bulkhead aboard a submarine, he later telekinetically dragged a cutting torch to said bulkhead - intent on cutting away the lower portion of it so he could get through unimpeded. Watertight integrity? What is that?
The last part is especially relevant. I've seen videos (for example, from Pack Tactics) saying "fudging numbers is bad, and you should always consider yourself as having failed if you have to do it." while Matt Colville, a much smarter individual and game designer, explicitly states "Encounter balance doesn't stop once you've rolled initiative." I find that most of these "controversial" things fall under Rule 1: If it makes the game fun for everyone, do it. If it doesn't, don't.
Player here, my DM has had a DMPC during our long ass 5 year campain. We love that dude, he is never gonna get away from us. he is our tired ex-alcoholic uncle an he is staying with us. The DM made him because we had never played Dungeons and Dragons before and we were shy and kind of a mess. Having a PC for guidance really helped during our first fights before we got into the hang of things. Now 5 years later we are finally finishing our campain and our DM wants to start another one in the setting for Eberron. He has created this really cool fighter girl that we all already love. The DMPC can be fun to have around and it doesn't have to take agency away from the players. Also if we notice that happening we can just tell the DM after the session, he is our friend and he is contantly trying to improve so he listens when there is a concerns about anything we find somehow unfair. A fact that hasn't been pointed out here is that when you have a long campain a lot of times people get art, make memes, interact with the other players characters and they form fun dynamics. A DMPC allows the DM to also have that and not be the weird one out. In my opinion if an NPC following the party is OK why is not a DMPC? The character is already following the party so might as well fight too, there is nothing more boring than scort missions lol. Maybe it hasn't worked for you guys but that doesn't mean is not going to work at all.
My players ended up adopting a young orphaned girl and have been training her to fight whilst also giving her an education and magic training. She's currently a 3rd level arcane trickster rogue and has been growing alongside the party, even fighting in combat. It was not my intention to have a DMPC, but the players love her and won't stop RPing with her so I guess we're all good haha.
This is exactly my problem with people saying you shouldn't have a DMPC. They should instead warn you of the risks of having one. I've made a bunch of DMPCs, I always ask my players what they think, and they always LOVE them, they want them to stay in the party and they say the game is more fun because of them. So instead of crucifying DMPCs, I think people should just...warn DMs about the possible problems. Some groups are actually well equipped to handle DMPCs and even benefit from them.
Gods, imagine how heartbreaking it would be if that little girl got hurt in battle though! As the DM who gave them the NPC, it's sometimes easy to fall into that idea that monsters and enemies would ignore or go easy on that NPC because of being a little girl, when in reality they shouldn't. Hopefully the players understand that and know to protect her with strategic placement and stuff.
@CeranVA she went down for the first time last session. They were not happy about it, they just about dumped every resource imaginable into her and then immediately murdered the one who did it to her haha.
there's a big difference between going out of your way to make one and forcing it on your players and them willingly asking you to turn a liked NPC into a party member. I'd say that's more along the lines of a well-liked NPC, and you should be proud that you've accomplished that
I'm currently in a pathfinder game with two DM's and one of them has a DMPC, and its worked out quite well. He's been a valuable part of the party without overshadowing the PC's. Though he's the guy who got all our character's together, other characters stepped up as the faces of the party, while the DMPC only really speaks spoken to or if the DM thinks he's input would be useful to steer us in the right direction.
Pretty much how I always run my DMPC. I make no major choices, often forgotten about but there doing things in the background in my own head, and as someone who plays a lot of non dnd games, no one els is willing to run non dnd 90% of the time and when they do it’s ether great because it’s something they love, actually playing in a fallout game run by one of my group and they are rocking it and I’m loving it, or they have zero interest in reading the books. Pretty much every onyx path game we play. Trinity Continuum and Scion are some of my favorite games and where they will play when I run and ask to play all the time, no one would run the game except me. The one time I got to play in Aberrant the GM totally left core concepts which is one of the major pillars of the game I really loved, that being science and not magic, they took it right back to magic.
@@Taeerom Maybe they have less players then recommended? Finding a new player that fits with your group can be dicey. Sidekicks are cool but they really aren't that different from a character made with the PHB so why limit it to 3 classes? Most importantly there is also a good chance that players don't want to play a certain class to fulfil a niche that the party desperately needs. As long as you play the character honest without giving them DM powers and separate DM knowledge there is 0 difference between a PC, NPC statblock or Sidekick statblock.
@@luminous3558 None of the reasons you are listing is any reason whatsoever to have a dmpc. None. Few players doesn't matter. You can play DnD with as few as zero actual players. There are no niche that needs to be filled by any character. You can solve healing by a single wand of cure wounds, or nothing at all. This is not WoW. The only reason to have a DMPC is if the DM wants to play. And honestly, that's a reason to never play at that table. Because that is a DM that is going to suck.
This was something I came up with in response to the whole "DM vs Players" mindset, but can also be applied here. "The DM is not the Red Team. They are the umpire, the nets or goals, the arena, the ball and the support staff. They may be the opposition, but they are not the enemy."
I think by far the biggest reason why "DM vs. Players" mindset is such a widespread problem because people new to D&D assume they can and should "win".
The real problem with DM vs Players come from DM's who can't ever let anything they create die, and are angry and upset when a player does something that didn't go according to the DM's expectations and they can't handle it. To me a real DM is someone who is a world generator/simulator. I am such a DM. I create worlds. I generate characters that are NPCs with goals, dreams, relationships, drama, etc. Then enter the players... they get to interact with said world and the world reacts to what the players do and interact with.
I had a player who could never seem to get the concept I was a Referee and not an Opponent. This same player also had trouble separaring NPC's, my DMPC, and. me IRL. Eventually they got it, but I bet they still slip all the time and we dont even realize.
@howzany6832 i had a GM who said they were just a simulator and world responder. A totally neutral party. That GM ended up being the epitome of an opponent. Anytime anyone wanted to have fun, they would threaten the entire world against them. The entire reason was super transparent: they didnt want us to be jerks to their NPC's or be murder hobos. But I came to kick butt and chew bubblegum, and the GM didnt supply the bubblegum. I eventually got tired of being threatened by a godlike entity, and made pacts with the other more mischievous players to troll the GM a bit, be extra violent jerks, and when he threatened what was essentially an army of police will come to kill us, we just replied "And we will kill all those jerks too!" But in my head I was thinking "I dont care. I'd rather die having fun than live another moment in your boring on-rails themepark story. In his defense, he was still new to GMing. Apparently when I was still newer, many of my players wanted to quit immediately bc I was so bad. So i figure thats kindof a normal learning curve
You went a different direction than I expected with the DM who wants to be a player. With most of those things you listed, you can just change your mindset and the DM gets a lot of those things.... a lot of those things can be surprises that the players bring to the DM. You don't always need a clear cut answer to every situation your players bring to the table, let them surprise you.
Agreed, I was thinking they might go the whole Dungeon Worlds way and "Play to find out what happens." This is personally what I have done. If you ask the players for input into creating the world then you can be just as surprised as you are when you play as a PC. Some other things that can help with this is to not determine so much ahead of time. If you've got several ideas that could work, create a random table and then roll on it when the time is appropriate. You can still capture some of the wonderment and discovery.
@@ДюсековИльяс It's collaborative. The point is, if the DM doesn't make every decision in the story (leaving some to the players), then the DM can still be surprised.
This actually made me reconsider the DMPC that I was running alongside some newer players because while I claimed it was to fill the role of the tank, I realize that subconsciously I just miss the player experience and I want to be a player more than a DM the way I used to be.
The only roles in DND are damage and utility. A wizard who casts hypnotic pattern or banishment on half the enemies is "tanking" far more damage than a fighter who has 18 ac and is "healing" far more damage than a Cleric who casts cure light wounds.
@@mac_sour Do you understand the meaning of the word mitigation or not? And why do you seem to think wizards are soft targets? Most level 8 wizards are rocking an AC they can pump up to 25-28 with a shield spell. But anyway. Let’s say we’re fighting 3 enemies that somehow always hit and deal 10 damage each time they do. They have above average willpower saves and so will save against a grimoire-toting wizard’s hypnotic pattern 1/3rd of the time. Scenario 1, you play a healbot cleric. You delay casting cure wounds at level 3 to the end of the enemies’ turn. They deal 30 damage to your party. You heal 3d8+5 of that therefore mitigating on average 17 points of damage to your party. Next turn any alive enemies deal a further 10 damage. You need to use more spell slots to mitigate further. Scenario 2. You play a wizard. You cast hypnotic pattern knocking 2 enemies out of the fight. The last guy either wastes his turn waking up a friend (30 damage mitigated this turn) or he hits a member of the party (20 damage mitigated this turn). Next turn any enemies under hypnotic pattern are still having all of their damage mitigated leaving you free to do actions or deal damage to awake enemies with either spells or cantrips to spells. Even clerics should not typically cast healing spells and instead focus on damage and utility. A sentinel cleric with spirit guardians up will “heal” more than a Cleric spamming cure wounds any day.
"I want to be a player too" is a perfectly valid reason to make a DMPC. Be upfront with your players about that and don't jam the DMPC into the spotlight and the players will probably be fine with it. They generally want you to have a good time too!
@connerhuntington6094 I think your reason to include an NPC to tag along is fine. Heck sometimes my players go out of their way to adopt various NPC's when I expect them to butcher them or something. And sometimes il put such a whacky or fun NPC on their path that they want to keep in touch with him or ask me if its oke if he tags along. And sometimes I do just that. So long as your npc isent soloing the adventure for them but is just helping them it should be just fine. Heck, sometimes it makes total sense. If the party is in a region theyre not very familiar with it makes sense they hire a local ranger to be their guide. Or a druid finds them lost in the forest and guides them to a safer location or something. If therye in a new town (well new town for them) and theyre looking around the local crime lords might send someone to...keep them out of trouble. Or see what theyre up to. Maybesee if theres something that they can leverage of the players to do a job for them. Not all npc intereactions have to be 100% posistive :) they then also get the satisfaction of getting revenge later on as well. There are so many ways you can intereact with them with a cool or fun npc that isent intruding in their story that you should be just fine :) What generally is regarded as the DMPC is someones personal avatar that they use to feel powerfull or smart. Some character that they find so aamazing in their heads that the party is granted the honour of beeing present in the same story as him. Sadly thats not an exegeration either. Some people think their npc avatars are that awesome and nothing on this planet can convince them otherwise. Its such a widespread problem in the dnd community that theres entire youtube channels that just read dnd horror stories to the vieuwers. The vast majority of those stories have the DMPC as the cause of the horror story.
I’ve been waiting for this. I’ve been playing DMPC’s right alongside the party for years, and they hardly ever notice, because they’re indistinguishable from NPC’s. Here are some tips to keep things smooth: - Never plan on having them as a permanent fixture in the party. Always have them be someone related to the quest /overall party objective. - Never force the party to take anyone on. Give them a choice of who they want to take with them, and when. - likewise, never have the character fully commit to the party either. Have them make realistic choices about how far they go, when, and why. They have lives, motivations, and responsibilities not bound by the party. - never make them too much stronger (or too much weaker) than the party, depending on their role. This is flexible, but never breakable. - always roll for them last while out of combat. If the group is making perception checks, and another player succeeded, you don’t even need to roll; so as not to steal the spotlight. If everyone else fails, this gives “the party” one more chance to succeed. Here are some examples of “DMPC’s” that I have used, and the context I’ve used them in: The local innkeeper is worried because a longtime family friend was supposed to be in town by now, but has not arrived. They hire the party to investigate the mountains to the north, where the friend would have been traveling from. The innkeeper’s daughter (battlemaster, level 4) wants to prove her independence to her parent, and asks to go along with the party to rescue the family friend. The local ruler’s son (fighter 2, cleric 1) is seen by the party, praying frantically at the temple of the god that the party’s cleric worships. He discloses to the Cleric that he is being sent visions of a site that is holy to the cleric’s god, and has not been able to get restful sleep since the visions began. His prayers being unanswered, he implores the party to escort him to the holy site so that he may commune with the god in a more direct manner. The apprentice (Warlock, level 3) of a merchant the party is friends with wants to get a rare and exotic pet for their mentor as a birthday gift. However, the animal they seek is a prey species to a much more dangerous creature, and cannot go alone. Obviously, not every quest can be this way. And often, parties will have multiple “irons in the fire” rather than quest, return, quest, return, etc. BUT as a DM, you can control which plot hooks get introduced, and when. This style will definitely be more geared toward DM’s who run a “sandbox” style campaign. A good rule of thumb is to think “Does the person giving the party this quest think that they are too weak to join the party? Does the person giving this quest think they are too important or preoccupied to join them?” If the answer to both is no, why not have them come along?
This made me feel much better about the npc /dmpc I run with my group. he has a good Pam build but is silent most of the time unless we are at camp or something that's not hugely related to the quest.
My DM during a Curse of Strahd campaign rolled up a Halfling Farmer NPC due to one of our players working off of the "This is your Life" table from Xanathar's Guide. The group didn't really want to try and cover for this guy in the middle of the Death House section so we equipped him with a crossbow and a shortsword. Surprisingly, he held his own with some good rolls and was really a badass. The whole group came to the conclusion, much to the DM's choice, that the NPC would be given Fighter class levels and grew to be a well respected part of our party and a good friend to one of the players!
We always did it because there were only two of us that would play. Everyone else in town thought it was devil worship. So my brother would dm and played his character, and when I finally got old enough, i would be dm and would play my chareacter. Its all about if you can not get a big head and enjoy the game for the games sake.
Same. I’m not a fan of DMPC shaming. People got to play D&D however they can manage without having to feel guilty for working within your means and comfort level. It’s hard to find a big group that gets along
@@SCAW1972 thats so true. If you wanted to play, its what you had to do. We lived on a farm, and had so much work to do, that my older brother would just make up stuff out of his head. But it was how we played.
@@shawnwolf5961 right. They talk all this stuff, then wonder why no-one is playing. Most people work. Or go to school, ets... if you get a chance to play, you dont want to be locked into a ruleset that shames you into their way of playing.
Having DMing a campaign for 2 players, it was almost essential to have a DM NPC, although he didn't take any important decisions, he was at least an additional target and gave them an additional action..magic items don't really solve the danger of a 2 players party, where they only have 2 actions and there is only 2 targets, if 1 falls..If I had to redo it, I would go with "companions" or an extra PC each..which is exactly what I was going to do before the game fizzled...
Way back when I ran a 2nd Ed campaign and only had two players to start, neither were very experienced so I didn’t want to have them try to run more than one character. So I did run a few different NPC’s that traveled with the party but pretty sure none of them would qualify as DMPC. They all were part-time companions often cycled through for specific outings from their home city with their own motivations for that adventure. Once we got a few more players my guys faded out into role as purely non-adventuring characters. So yeah I think they forgot the ‘excuse’ of pure number of characters. I am happy to say I stumbled into running adventuring NPC’ s and not a DMPC. Was thinking I might have to make an argument but ended up feeling vindicated doing it right. lol
Much the same here. I had a work friend who wanted to learn the game, and my housemate wanted to try a different character than the one that they have in a game a friend is running. I created an NPC to help round out the skills (originally they played a ranger and paladin respectively. Work friend decided they wanted to play a sorceror instead, so I made the ranger an NPC. Then a nephew of one of my housemate's friend's joined the game as a rogue. So the DMNPC rogue multiclassed to cleric but when doors be doors, he can still help try to open them. I regularly check in to make sure that the DMNPCs aren't stealing any thunder, and if they still want them around. The players also shipped them... hard. So now the 2 DMNPCs are married, one of the plots is the party escorting the cleric/rogue's distant cousin to marry his older sister (politics you know...) while they're also tracking down rumors of a twin/duplicate of the other rogue. I'm expecting a lot of squeeing when the PCs find out they're going to be aunt and uncles in the near future.
They should've treated theses reason, not enough players at your tablet. I only had 2 too, a wizard and barbaran so I played a clérigo along with them helping
The biggest issue for me is that players WANT to bring all of the NpC characters with them on their adventure. “Oh we don’t have a healer? Let’s bring our local Druid”
I think what Bob is saying is that whether the players actually wanted to bring a character along determines whether they are a useful NPC companion or are a DMPC shoehorned in by the DM.
I have a simple fix. Sure, but they want a full share including magic items. Honestly though if the Players want to bring another NPC I'm fine with it, but they have to run the NPC. Also if they take too long deciding on that character's action I drop the NPC for the current round.
Brennan Lee Mulligan does a pretty excellent job of a DMPC with Zelda in The Seven, she's a quiet character by nature so doesn't take charge of the plot, but her character and voice still have to be considered in the group, and there's no way to write her out and the structure of the show is always 6 players and 1 DM, so I think it was necessary and that Brennan as always nailed it
When you mentioned the healing potions it reminded me of the house rule we use. Healing potions can be taken as a free action and have their normal effect (roll for healing) but if you use a standard action the potion is maximized (no roll necessary). The idea is basically taking the potion as a shot or taking that little extra time to get every drop.
Sentient weapons are huge for giving your players insight and options. I also like giving characters "spirit guides" that they can contact for advice. An NPC that is fairly useless but still involved in the investigation or whatever is good also. That being said, i've done a DMPC when one of my players couldnt make it for a session and just took over their character and played the way I felt they would play that day.
"If you want a DNPC, just take that energy and put it in your villains." is incredibly good advice. That's what I find myself doing all the time lol I come up with a cool character idea. Guess who the party is fighting once they get to the bandit camp?
I think it goes to show that my group just gets along so well, that my DMs tend to use important NPC companions with PC stats and this has never been an issue for any of the players
One great example of a DMPC is Balnor from NADDPOD campaign 1 which came from the deck of many things very early on in the campaign. Murph always made Balnor at least one level lower than the players, while also never giving him any actually important magic items ( other than the bags of course) and on some occasions just sat around and didn't come on every adventure.
That's a good example, Balnor also came in handy for some of their tougher fights too. He played a good supporting role and came in at some very clutch moments too. Also his backstory was both hilarious and heartbreaking to discover
6:05 he is the McGuffin that the PC must protect. The true Protagonist is Samwise. With everyone else helping as necessary supporting party members and side quest adventurers.
My players thought they needed a healer and asked their employer to provide one. They gave them an Awakened Shrub that didn't share a language with anyone in the party. It led to some interesting roleplaying.
@@kyleward3914 that's so much fun, that's the kind of screwing with your players that i can get behind. it's nothing harmful, it's just genuine fun for everyone at the table.
I think it can work if you have a short-term DMPC to help in a small section of the campaign. This can be nice to do as a story reward, or if, in a long-running campaign, the PCs need an ally who has connections they don't. My PCs were investigating corruption in an isolated city. In the first half of the arc, they learned that one of the wizard politicians was good and they worked hard to earn her trust, so when it came time to take down the corrupt government, she got upgraded from helpful NPC to DMPC for a couple of sessions - she fought in the battles, solved RP encounters, contributed to planning/strategy sessions to the same degree as the other PCs. The players knew she wouldn't be traveling with them forever (I think it was 4 sessions total), so rather than feeling this massive burden of having to share combat, RP, and plot progression with an NPC for the whole campaign, it was just a fun shake-up to the dynamic and they enjoyed that someone they worked hard to get on their team was actually helping them.
Running CoS and our DM is playing Ireena as we take her to safety. Using her as more of a lore dictionary for the other PCs. She’s not very helpful in combat, but in RP helps with the knowledge of family lines and map locations.
One cool solution with RotFM where there is a section with a wizard NPC who would join the party: We were having an evening where some people were missing, and I was concerned that I needed to have Vellyne do more than I had previously in combat. Then I remembered one of the players at the table was interested in wizards, so I asked them if they wouldn’t mind running that NPC during encounters on top of their player’s turn. Made it a lot easier on me, sped up combat, and helped the party connect a bit more with them.
My wife and I are co DM's in our game and have both played a DMPC that's worked wonderfully with our party. They loved them and we made sure that they didn't involve themselves too much unless the party addressed the directly aside from combat and party-only roleplay.
I've been running campaigns for my son in which he plays 2 characters, the 2nd one being the strong silent type, and I run a DMPC. I always let him take the lead, but we get some really fun & creative roleplay. We love it. But I agree with the D Dudes in that I wouldn't want the DM in my other group to run a DMPC and steal the show. I think the question of whether a DMPC is acceptable depends solely on the circumstances, Luke over the DM Lair made similar points in his video.
If you are a forever DM, then switch with a player. In my group we used to rotate DMs every time we levelled up. The DM's character would temporarily be on some errant, which exactly gained them the same xp and gold and items as the rest of the party... It has worked for 20+ years for us.
I’ve been playing D&D since Basic. I don’t ever recall a DMPC until my 5e campaign. This was an NPC who I used to help new players acclimate to D&D as a DMPC. Thought they might be temporary. My party fell in love with them and the concept. Our 2nd campaign they made sure to ask me to have a DMPC. I’ve now had multiple campaigns where I DM’d and my players requested a DMPC. When another player DM’d they created a DMPC as well. My 5 campaigns and 3 separate tables with 2 DMs have all used DMPCs. There’s never been a whiff of a problem. Based on comments, I get this is unusual but wanted you to know “never” in your title doesn’t apply to my 7-year 5e experience. It’s been very positive DMing and playing a DMPC and playing a PC next to a DMPC of someone else’s.
I am fairly new and my party seems to enjoy the DMPC, not in small part because three 1st-level full casters with one healing spell between the three of them would have died without a healer tank that could give them darkvision. For me (and the DM before me), the choice was due to the fact that we were inexperienced and weren't able to adjust the adventure's encounters at that time (nor did we want to, that takes time and you'll end up feeling like everything's your fault). An experienced party and an experienced DM can absolutely make do without a DMPC; new ones will struggle a lot more.
@@tibot4228 Helping a party played by new D&Ders was my original reason too, but they're all extremely experienced now and still love the DMPCs. Of course we can do without but no one seems to want to regardless of who DMs.
We have a large party--nine of us. I wanted to learn to DM, and the experienced DM wanted to play more, so we are co-DMs for this campaign. We do the big world-building together, and then trade off planning and DM-ing every few sessions. When I DM, my PC is off at the library or on a secret mission, and when he DMs, his PC is off hunting or sleeping off too much drink. On occasion one of the other PCs will go call or get our PCs to jump in, but we keep their participation very minimal. So far it has worked well for us. Added bonus is that on occasion he's had to cover me, or he's gotten stuck at work and I've been able to cover him, so our party never has to reschedule. Also, with nine, if the party wants to split, he goes with half and I go with the other half, so no one who hates shopping has to sit and wait 😉.
Was DMing my first campaign and I only had 2 players, one was a cleric and the other was a barbarian. As part of the story, they had a hobgoblin arrested, but then realized afterwards that he was actually good and very well liked. They begged some NPCs to release him, so I built him as a character, and in the game had him released from the prison under their care. I handed the character sheet to them and let them control the character.
My very first ever D&D adventuring group came equipped with a DMPC. Myself and my 4 sisters ranging from ages 12 to 8 were introduced to an old hobby of my father's in the form of 1st edition AD&D. With a party of a cleric, a thief, 2 fighters and my dads DMPC rounding out the group as Daddo the magic-user, it's still to this day almost 15 years later, the best and most fun group I've ever had the pleasure of playing with.
In our games we sometimes have a character the DM made join the party. Sometimes plot elements come through them. However, we control the character in all combat encounters and also in all normal usage expect when a particular plot issue comes up. Overall this seems to have worked for our group fairly well. Most of the time the character has a particular skill set and we will directly ask the character to translate something or information about some lore that is intended for the DM to answer.
TLDR: A fourth reason one may play a DMPC is because your players ask you to. I have DM'd with the same group over many years and through seven full campaigns. [luck, I know] In one campaign we all decided to try to use the optional rule in Chapter 9 of the DMG, "Plot Points" - in particular 'Option 3 - The Gods Must Be Crazy' where "[T]here is no permanent DM. Everyone makes a character, and one person starts as the DM and runs the game as normal. That person’s character becomes an NPC who can tag along with the group or remain on the sidelines, as the group wishes." I started as DM but also rolled up a wizard to play along when others used their Plot Points. Only . . . no one ever did. Ever. They liked my Wizard, he was relationally tied in with other characters as we tried to do this very heavily in this campaign. And we all loved it. I avoided the DMPC traps. My character stayed in the decision making background. I even had them killed by a Beholder's Disintegration Ray at one point when it was clear that no one would EVER take the DM chair even for a day. The party scooped up his dust and spent the next 4-5 sessions and tens of thousands of gold to find a place to get True Resurrection cast to get their DMPC friend back. Two campaigns later - during COVID - I start a new campaign along with another Forever DM buddy. We agree to each create a PC and rotate playing and DM Lost mines of Phandelver each week. "Hey, its only for the COVID lockdown. How long could it last?" He lasted about 5 sessions, the campaign went LMoP --> HOTDQ --> RoT. All with me playing my little halfling rogue. All without the typical issues associated with a DMPC. How do I know without all those issues? Because we just started Dungeons of Drakkenheim on New Year's Day after 4 months of prep. A month before we started one of my players asked me if I was playing a character. I told him of course not. Those were two odd occurrences and not my preference. He said - and I quote - "That's too bad, we all like it better when you play along with us." I individually asked each of the three other players in that campaign. Each told me a surprised 'Yes!' that they love playing along with me and love it more when I have a character in the campaign with them. So 'serq' the goblin paladin of the Silver Order joins the fray.
I started playing D&D in 1979. Even that far back, I remember a friend telling me, “You know how you know you’re in for a bad game? When the DM has a character in the group.” So, it’s been a bad idea for a long time. We just didn’t have a name for it yet.
I think you guys make a really good point about DMPCs, it's difficult playing one as well because you have to remove your behind the screen knowledge and trying to make decisions based only on what the character would know and not what you want to happen next. And while not metagaming can always be a struggle for role playing I have found it particularly difficult not to make my character do things solely to further my plot because there are just some things that character wouldn't know or do. I am currently DMing for a campaign for 2 players and am playing a character myself. I decided to do this because neither of my players had ever played D&D or any table top RPG before and I wanted to give them an idea of the kinds of things they could do through example rather than just saying "you could do this, this, or this" all the time. They are still learning the ropes for a lot of the different dnd elements so I use my DMPC in a lot of ways that you all have mentioned including filling in gaps in the party since it's such a small group as their "tank". So far my players say that it has helped because there is a character for them to fall back on when they don't know how to handle a situation and don't have to metagame all time time and smoothed some of the awkwardness of role playing for the first time as well. While I know I could handle all of that with NPC(s) it's been more immersive for all 3 of us with all of us having a character and I mostly use my character to get things going in new situations (starting a conversation with NPCs, interacting with an item in a way they might not have thought of, asking questions to the characters to get them thinking about certain things). So overall it's been fun for us and I think my players appreciate having an in-game guide as well as they learn how to play and so far it's going really well.
I like the distinction between a useful or necessary NPC and a DM PC. I'm just getting started running Stars Without Number which is an OSR game and old school style games have a lot of instances where you have NPC hirelings and the sort accompanying the party. I already have a plan to get an important NPC on the ship with the PC's, so this is something I very much have in mind. Making NPC's that can accompany or help the party without them taking the spotlight from the party, or having them be a mouthpiece through which I can speak, or my players think I am speaking.
I also agree that Frodo is an NOC. He is the only member of the fellowship who has a different mission when they set off as The Fellowship. Yes in theory it’s all to destroy the ring and defeat Sauron, but there’s a big difference with Frodo. Frodo is the only one who’s mission is specifically to destroy the ring, AND his role is mostly to resist it’s evil temptation. The entire rest of the fellowship’s mission is to deliver Frodo to Mount Doom. And most of the decisive actions are not on Frodo. It’s the fellowship that provides him with the path to success. He is carried through his journey by the strength of his companions and not his own. Frodo’s the flag, mount doom is the capture point, and the rest of the fellowship is the party. Lord of the Rings isn’t about frodo it’s about the fellowship that enables his safe(ish) passage to Mount Doom and protects Middle Earth from Mordor’s influence along the way.
My dm played a dmpc in my first ever campaign It was just me and my mate as the two players, so there would only have been two pcs, so having the dmpc as the third was great and never sucked, he was non verbal and had an interesting enough story that we actually wanted to figure out what was up with him!
Had a DM create a paladin DMPC since we didn't have a tank in the group. Promised he wouldn't take any action without us giving the go-ahead. When we were trying to scout out a tunnel filled with spider-rats (he was a terrible DM in all other aspects as well, and every single enemy we fought was some kind of rat) he got fed up with us not charging ahead and decided to just charge ahead. Started making attack rolls but wouldn't tell us what was happening since he was around a corner. Finally we get fed up and go around to help, seeing him swarmed with enemies. However, he was so overpowered that he actually gained health (because our DM didn't understand that temp hp doesn't stack) and was boasting about how strong his character was. Immediately our sorcerer re-rolled as a tank just to get him out of the party.
As a forever DM what I like to do is use some of my PCs I’ve made assist the party on their quests. They aren’t permanent members, just friends helping out for a mission or two.
So I worked with kids who were pretty new to the game and only played in small 1-3 person groups. And If I left them alone in the world they quickly found new and exciting ways to die or get locked up before doing anything actually interesting. The most successful campaigns we had were the ones where I had a DMPC playing with them, not to overshadow them in combat but to have their back, and not to give away puzzles but to make observations that might help the player make their own connection. Looking back the Key to these DMPCs that worked really well, was that they were not designed as DMPCs. One of the first times this happened was in a Magic Academy campaign where I made an NPC who was intended to be a rival and an antagonist to the players, but one of the players despite not liking them kept interacting with them and dragging them along until they actually became friends, and I had to make a full character sheet to keep track of what this NPC that was originally just supposed to be better at magic, could actually do. The more they interacted the more fleshed out the NPC became, the more the players started relying on the NPC to do things like Intelligence checks and to cast that last-minute Feather Fall. The same player who befriended that NPC, ignored the DMPC I had set up for them because she didn't like his personality, and when an found another NPC to drag along, that had to start leaving up to not die instantly, as again they decided they wanted someone the have their back. DMPC, and I would say they are DMPC because they very much did feel like I was running and Charicter at my own table, are at their best when they help are focused on having the players back and giving them more options, agency, and a dynamic for them to play off.
Great points. I try to run them as NPC's and keep them pretty quiet. As you said, it doesn't really let me be a player character. Also, I'm fortunate that a couple of my players DO step in from time to time and gives me a chance to play.
@@Salchipapa97 That's literally what he said. Not unrelated from playing Chess against yourself. It's not easy to do, but IS possible and fun! It takes real skill to be able to avoid planning ahead and only make seemingly optimal choices based on the current state of the board. Some people who can't (or more, refuse to seriously try) think it sounds impossible and idiotic. I pity them. In the case of D&D, you are just making a story. The difference with this scenario is that you are playing all the parts. JUST LIKE A NOVELIST. Yet everyone knows that a novelist (typically) works alone to create the whole story. Not every story has a clear plot of A to B; they evolve and change over time.
@@JarieSuicune the important difference to just thinking about a story is the impact of the dice wich make it still a game where you have to adapt to the situation.
@@Salchipapa97 Not necessarily, it's called GM-less so the whole group plays characters and have equal responsibility running the world and game, and is easily done using a Game Master Emulator, like Mythic GME (which can be used to play Solo too) it's been around for over 20 years now, and there's even a 2e version now, tho Solo has been a thing since the 80s/90s, with Gamebooks like Lone Wolf. The difference between Soloing and writing a book is that you're still playing a game, and you don't know what the story is; the dice take over telling that part!
Here's my solution: make your DMPCs the villain(s). Have them planning and scheming and advancing their plots in the background instead of being with the party. Then the final encounter really is suspenseful for you as the DM - you really don't know what's gonna happen! Oh man you said it at the end
As a forever dm with a small group, my 2 friends and 2 little kids. I have always run a dmpc it has never been an issue. I typically run someone who is mainly support and there as another person to talk to. I simply never solve problems and never take the spotlight. I can see how it could be abused, but I’ve never had anyone have a problem with it and it lets them have an extra healer or bardic inspiration, etc
Exactly this. We run a small group, and we have 2 DMs, me and someone else. We both run DMPCs, but their basically just NPC+. An NPC that follows the party, and lives by the rules of the PCs. For me, they almost never get full story moments the way I would give one of my players. They are in the background. They speak when spoken to, or when it makes sense. They do a lot of stuff "off screen" as to not hog the spotlight. They are not as important as the PCs, and they are a side character in the PCs story.
@@ArekesuLive ya, my friends, family, and I have used that exact method to run multiple year campaigns. I typically run most, with others taking over as a dm for a one shot or a single adventure when they want. Everyone has a great time and gets to be “there” for the story. If there is ever a moment where it makes sense for my character to be in the spotlight, which is rare, one of the others, typically my brother, takes over as dm. We have played that way whenever we can since the late 80’s. It is great fun and makes long road trips and family vacations, even more fun.
I am part of a group with my best friend of 26 years. I love him and I want him to be a PC. Ive never DMd but I have been watching and learning so many things from so many creators about how to DM. I love the Warcraft universe and feel as a DM (and a big old warcraft lore nerd) i could easily have a campaign in that setting. I brought it up to my bud and he suggested doing a oneshot first. It made me happy to see that tip in this video. Love you Tyler, I hope you enjoy being a PC and thank you for getting me into DnD.
A really good reason I have for using one is that my GF and I are playing by ourselves - I'm the DM. I've already had to modify combat quite a bit, but DnD solo in 5E is still essentially a suicide mission, even with massive changes to combat. But if I add a DMPC, which I honestly really only touch for combat and essentially use to keep her from dying if she massively screws up. My DMPC: -Standoffish, doesn't help much except for survivability. -is essentially Erendel from LotR mixed with the protagonist in Shadow of Mordor [modified Echo Knight]. -is ONLY partnered up with her because I essentially railroaded her into a homebrew item from LotR she wanted [but is retardedly overpowered], so I gave that item a "guardian" [the dmpc] who doesn't care much about what's going on but he DOES care if that item gets misused, and he doesn't want it falling into the wrong hands either -eventually, when she becomes powerful enough to not really need a companion, there will be a cool fight between her and the companion to kill him off [or cripple him or something that just turns him into a standard NPC] I've added quite a lot of story tied to him that SHE has to discover - I may control him and his decisions but he generally doesn't do much at all unless SHE happens to stumble upon the story elements that involve/affect him, and they are almost completely separate from her own. And his decisions he'd make in those areas of "his" story are essentially prescripted the way a NPC would be. Been working just fine so far. She likes the companion I made and has even asked to control him instead of me [which I've refused because I feel that'll make things too easy for her.. he's way overpowered intentionally, which is why even though he is a DMPC, I do my best to make him feel more like a NPC that follows her around everywhere.
@@gengar618 Like when characters need a mentor or if new players need a hand to avoid early mistakes. I think a DMPC would work well as training wheels where they guide someone in a direction for a little while and eventually leave.
Dudes, I love your videos. Ended up in your channel by total chance and slowly grow fond of how you explain or bring examples or tips about everything. As a forever DM (for 10 years) that VERY recently (last year) did take a break as a DM, thank you for this video.
I'm really happy to have come across this video. After not having played DnD in over 10 years my wife and oldest daughter (8) have expressed interest in playing. They have chosen their characters, a Wood Elf Ranger with a bow and a High Elf Rogue with a bow to start the Lost Mine of Phandelver module and want me to make a character to play with them while I DM. I'm really struggling to figure out how to run the character and keep the story about them.
Now I want to create a DMPC that checks a few of the "bad DMPC" boxes only to have them get obliterated by the BBEG as a sort of power check for the group.
I wanna start a campaign like this. The party works for (and is obviously subordinate to) the “chosen one” DMPC (who is 4 or 5 levels above them), but by the end of session 2 or so the BBEG has killed the chosen one and now the party has to figure out what comes next.
Every argument against a DMPC has a flaw, the assumption that the DM will run it a specific way. Here are rules for how to run a DMPC. -Certain classes are off limits, like the warlock and cleric. Classes that require active interaction with the DM, as with a patron or deity, are better for PCs. Avoid situations where you have to role play talking to yourself. -Do not help in any puzzles or social encounters. The DMPC is the silent type that steps back and watches, voicing up only when their words mean something. -Combat can always use another member. Most can absolutely be NPCs but those are made to squish easily to not outshine the PCs. So the DMPC must be the same way. They can help absorb some hits you know might be a fatal blow to a pc, but also just as fatal to the DMPC. Spell casters can’t have stronger damage dealing than the PCs, fo support fire and a spare the dying helps, but not integral to the party’s survival. -Loot will always go to PCs. Magic and items are for them, but currency can be split equally on occasion. -Think about playing something with severe flaws, like a DMPC with a Mindflayer tadpole, a slad tadpole, or find monster classes that make them unique but provide limitations, weaknesses, and varying difficulties that the PCs don’t have to add a little conflict in otherwise mundane actions. My DMPC is poor and only magic item she possesses is gauntlets of ogre power becomes everyone else was too strong to benefit from it. They gave it to my DMPC. She also doesn’t have any weapons and is leveling up as a full fledge vampire from Monster Classes pdf. She can’t enter an inn or tavern or any living area without permission and has all vampire weaknesses. She’s combat support so if a really strong hit comes their way, she could be the target. She can’t heal other than through feeding and stays silent in social interactions to avoid anyone finding out her undead nature. I love the surprise and the challenges the PCs create on their own and I can enjoy the unknown just as well as them, only offering my thought on a solution if one is a struggle to find. Recently they fought my homebrew will o’ wisp that animates corpses in its presence, using them as puppets that form one mass after they’re cut to pieces. My DMPC voiced that something must be controlling them, as no one attacked the will o’ wisp yet. Lastly, if she dies then my next DMPC will be using the sidekick rules to make it easier on myself on leveling up and to keep the abilities mundane. So far, my party always takes the light and almost always gets the final blow. Even if I have to miss on purpose. You can absolutely have fun and experience the surprises and solutions through the players while enjoying surprises of my own. My DMPC was a warlock half-vampire to start two years ago. She was killed by a fireball from a pc by accident. This gave me the opportunity to drop warlock and go full vampire after they buried her that gives my players the option of being vampires too, if their PCs lives are cut short too soon for them. By the way, the barbarian has an undead killing greatax for insurance if her bloodlust gets out of control.
the title doesn’t really help my confidence lol. But in my games i always have a npc for rp and to help in battle since my battles are quite brutal. But I build them in a way where the party can’t use them to bypass their problems
That seems a bit circuitous - you're the one designing the encounters, so you could also tune them for just the PCs. Why overtune them, and then add an NPC to compensate?
I'm calling shenanigans. An effective DMPC is the easiest thing to pull off. You just have to follow one rule: Drive the wagon. A Dwarven Alchemist with the Chef feat, Brewers Kit and Land Vehicles is always useful when they tend the wagon. They love the wagon, and it always survives for the party to return to. But if the party decides the Wagoneer should join in the dungeon? It's their own fault they invited an alcoholic pyromaniac along with them.
I hate when people use Matt Mercer as an example but this is one of the few times it actually DOES work: Mercer made "Gilmore". He was a Wizard character that was an owner of a Magical Goods chain that was successful. He talked with the party once in awhile and went on a quick adventure with them, they were thrilled....... .....he nearly died. Scared everyone so bad they didn't want him with them. He agreed as it worried him how he got his ass throughly kicked. 😆 I think 3HP away? This is a fantastic example. While yes, he helped them when they needed a bit extra firepower, they also nearly lost someone they really liked; it added tension and fear. This is a VERY rare time it paid off
Im currently running a campaign wearing Im playing with a DMPC, however Im doing it at my party's request. I voiced my concerns of past horror stories Ive heard and the last thing I wanted to do was to take away my party's agency. Despite saying that my group still requested I play a character alongside theirs. As a rule I dont award myself magic items and I dont help with puzzles, usually themed as my character keeping watch for enemies while the party solves the puzzle. I run my games in 'chapters' where each chapter has a different player as a focus, giving that character a chance to shine and focusing on their story. The agreement I came to with my group is I refuse to DM my 'chapter' for my character, someone else has to DM it. So if someone else wants to give me a magic item or surprise me with plot elements/story then they are welcome to do so during that time. I dont know if that would work for everyone, but its been working for my group and its been enjoyable.
You are well reasoned and thoughtful in your analysis. The druid changes make me sad. You are 100% accurate that it takes the creativity out of the class.
For me ... I love being in both roles. As a player: I love seeing the story unfold, not knowing what's about to happen and being surprised by the stuff the DM has up it's sleeve. The beloved npc death to give us as a party the motivation to fight, the plottwists, the interaction with my party members and let the characters grow together. You know the deal. As a dm: I love seeing how my story unfolds, the reaction to plot twists. Creating the long term villains who has the party as a big fucking thorn in the side and always comes up with new crazy plans who won't work ... listening to the party while they talk about the story in character for 15 minutes straight, trying to connect the dots and figure out what is actually going on. As you guys pointed out it's the mix of both which makes P&P fun in general and while I can play in four different campaigns at the same time without getting tired of it, DM'ing more than one group in my opinion is an absolute pain for me. So yeah, every DM needs a break from time to time, I guess
As a general rule I believe your points are valid. Maybe 10 years ago I did play an exception that I think worked though: At that time my recurring gaming group, that I have been playing with for more than 20 years now, was playing a D&D 3.5 campaign and we had two GM's who had a player character each - I was one of the GM's. In order for that to work we divided the tasks so that my friend, who had GM'ed the campaign before back in 2nd edition, would be GM''ing the official modules for the campaign (I think it was 4 main adventures with different level requirements in the Mystara setting). Since the world was well described by TSR it gave me room to design adventures in between the main adventures without knowing anything about the main plot where the players would interact with relevant factions and general events in the Mystara history setting. I was playing a bard and he was a cleric and it actually worked pretty well in the sense that none of us got fed up being a GM even though the campaign took like 3 or 4 years to complete.
I appreciate that you guys gave this advice without the severe condescencion that most of the DM advice channels give. You actually delivered your advice with honesty but understanding towards how these things happen. You also ended with the most important advice which is that if your table is okay with everything and having fun, it's okay but just be careful with how you use them. The most important things are simply that the DM PC's should never push the player characters aside and out of the spotlight. Most of the horror stories of DM PCs that I have heard involve the players getting 0 focus, or just beinf the supporting cast to this character, which is the DM abusing their control over events and trying to hog both sides of the court. However, your listed reasons for how this always happens were on point and good faith, especially the final one. Most DMPCs, versus just an NPC Companion, occur because the DM is stuck in the forever DM role and the players are being thoughtless and, let's be honest, selfish. A lot, hell possibly most, players are selfish, and sometimes they need to be reminded that The GM job is hard. Not everyone is a Matt Mercer who is genuinely just stoked to help others have fun (and is also, you know, getting paid for it). Most of us are hobbiest and have had shitty experiences as players and have been trying to correct what we felt were wrongs done to us. We wanted to show the DM that wronged us that there are other ways.
I think a cool way to have interesting NPCs bolster the party's abilities (maybe if they're new players or they have not very optimized characters) is to allow the players to have retainers. These are like servants/bodyguards to royalty/nobility but can often become close friends of the noble they serve. The important thing here is they will be controlled mechanically by the players as they follow orders, but they can be rp'd by the DM.
I had a year+ long campaign based on the Tomb of Annihilation 5E setting. The absolute best part of the game was the exploration of the jungle, finding all sorts of crazy tribes, encountering dangerous temples, finding amazing ruins (which I had great fun creating). They had picked a guide in town (after having a rollicking time there) and she was secretly a were-tiger who had to transform into a tiger every couple of nights to hunt and to relieve the pressure of maintaining a human form. She would inexplicably disappear for a period leaving the PCs to their own devices, but then show up and get them "back on track." She was trying to guide them to a specific spot in the jungle and get them to fight a bunch of bad guys so she could get an amulet that would help her control her shapeshifting. They kind of liked her, but during the periods she was gone, they discussed what the heck was up with her. It was a great arc for them trying to figure out her motives. Eventually, they just confronted her and she came clean and they all said "well, shoot, we would have helped you, why didn't you ask?" Her answer was "You could have said no." Anyway, they went on much more amiably, went to the place, beat the baddies and got her mcguffin. Everyone was happy, and they celebrated, then she disappeared into the jungle that night. Man, they were pissed. After being hopelessly lost for a while, they found a wounded Tabaxi (Sits-On-Hands) and he became a better, however more timid, guide after that.
One thing I'd also add about the healer part - Censor of Devotion dudes. The Cleric or Paladin pops it off once a day and 20-ish hit points come back for whoever breathes it. Great for a short rest substitute, even more fun in combat (they need to keep the enemies out and the players in the sphere as they try to fight). It's transformed my sessions completely. The Pally has lay on hands but is reluctant to use it too much on anyone but himself (unless they drop to zero). The Cleric has healing spells but understadably wants to use those to do badass spells. Now he can do both without over-extending his spell slots and make for an occasional epic combat encounter. Love it.
I introduced a bard NPC who was related to one of my party members and they loved him so much they asked him to join them for a mission. I was very aware of the dreaded DMPC so set some rules in my mind and shared these with the players. 1. The DMPC had no arc of his own and wasn't directly motivated to save the world in the same way as the party. 2. He'd act in combat on the orders of the group's leader. 3. He'd take a backseat in all RP unless directly involved by a PC. 4. He is a support caster with virtually no damage spells so he isn't going to be stealing kills or taking the BBEG down. I've been very careful with him and had the story remove him after the mission. They have roleplayed wanting to ask him back and a time is coming up when he will be with them.
monty talking about what being a DM is like hit me super heavy. like...is this how god feels? i love DMing and am far from burnt out, but man, i felt that rant on an existential level.
I run the occasional DM PC in my group, and my players have loved them. I do follow some rules though: 1st) Make them lovable. I've been playing with my group for 5 years now, and I've developed a sense of who they enjoy. Either a reluctant grump with a heart of gold, a chaotic idiot (Droop comes to mind), or someone who is cute, bubby, and innocent will get my party hooked every time. 2) They are here for a good time, not a long time. They stick around for a single arc at most. 3) They are built from the ground up to SUPPORT the party. Not just heal or tank, but buff the party and allow the party to be even MORE heroic. And I always have them be a level or two below the party so they never outshine the party. The party are the heroes. DM PCs should serve to help shine even more spotlight on them, not steal it for themselves.
I made a dmpc once in a homebrew campaign of mine, all the players were new at the game and didnt know how to act, so i made him to kinda break the ice. He would die later in the campaign for plot things, but i think i took away theyre chance to shine with this character, felt bad for it but never asked the players about it. He was a chaotic Halfling pirate swords bard swashbuckler rogue
I'm going to be DMing my very first campaign soon and I just wanted to say thanks for all your videos - they're so helpful and the way they're delivered and topics explained make them so easy to follow :)
I offer DMPCs as henchmen in my games. I classify them as DMPCs because they are created as pre-generated characters for new players who don't know what to roll, or maybe I'll get to play them in a game hosted by a different DM. They have as much personality as the other players, demand a share of the loot, and maybe have their own goals where they befriend or betray the party down the line. What is important here is that they never put the players in their shadow. This works for my games due to a low player count, anywhere between 1 and 4 players. On the other side of the screen, I've had a DM swoop their DMPC in to save us in combat, or hire us for quests that were obviously beyond our capabilities, only to watch them do most of the heavy lifting. I know the DM wanted to show off a character they were proud of, but it wasn't very fun for me. I love the idea of a caravan following players along their adventures, offering services and breathing more life into the party.
As a "Forever DM" I indulge in playing the NPCs and I explore the characters that know the world. I have an understanding of game design and player psychology, so I'm familiar with the concepts you bring up in that section of the video, and I've found that shifting in mindset is necessary if you want to have fun. Of course, if you want to have the player experience then you can try to find a game for that purely, but for me, it's about the NPCs. I know all of the answers, and I know where each of the NPCs are on their journey, and I get their character development stuff taken care of. For me, games are all about narrative, where the system used is the bone means to an end, and most of the players I get are focused on character growth over mechanical growth as well so I really build that into my D&D game. Even if we never talk about it in the context of a session, each npc actually has a deeply crafted backstory, even if in my mind, that influences their actions. As a DMPC, you cannot truly give yourself a meaningful choice because you are both the system and a PC, but you can give your NPCs meaningful choices against the party. I don't mean that everything has to be combative, do we fight or talk it out thing, but as an example, in a recent game I ran this last week, our players found the daughter of a famous Wyvern Rider bandit left to hang out on a cliff and saved her. She convinced the party, who had fought these bandits a few days prior, to go to the hideout, where she thinks she could take over and make things better for the bandits. Within the context of entering the cave hideout, there was a guard named Smol Nucklo (As opposed to his brother Big), and from a design perspective, he was a "Condition checkpoint" for the PCs. If she approaches alone, he attempts to capture her. If she has a singular character companion, then it depends on which character but there will be dice rolls associated, perhaps some bribing. If she brought the posse in, then he is immediately your man. All of those designs, of course, had their own game design functions to be sure, but all of them were based on that character's perception of the world and how the situation looked. In this instance, the players sent in the unassuming white-haired, pale-skinned celestial warlock female aasimar. Humanlike females were a big point of attention for this character, and in character history, he had always proposed to this daughter and she had always rejected him as a creep, which he was, as he felt comfortably superior to the two women. He demanded to be paid for putting his life on the line and the daughter offered him her hand, and then the PC didn't like that so she offered gold, and he said that 175 gold would be more than the value of being married to her. Haggling happened and the PC got the price to 150gp, backed out to get the gold, bought passage, and brought the party of 7 in, which is including the warlock. The Coup went well, one lesser bandit was killed, and the rest bent the knee to the party in favor of enacting that coup. While I won't be able to explore the reality of how this bandit guard in question will develop or not from there in a real game sense, I still get to indulge in the fun of having a character out in the world that will be living his own life because, even within the context of the dungeon itself, one of the days he had in that realm was completely out of my control as he met the wild variables, the PCs, that could have to lead the NPC to, or altered, their fate. Because on that day, on that particular session, it's the party who decides how this NPC lives or dies, even if the NPC dies fighting with the PCS against other NPCs. Also doesn't hurt that I actually drop builds into the main campaign against the players in singular or minor ways.
My first time playing the game we didn't have a healer back in 4e. The DM made a DMPC cleric but he had sworn an oath of silence. That way he couldn't influence the party and our decisions. It worked out well for what we needed which was just the mechanical help in combat but didn't hamper our choices.
My setting is a slow progression from children to adventurers. Their village has many npcs who support them. The npcs have went with them to teach them, this has been very useful for a brand new player who isn't sure what he can do, his mentor can keep him safe and offer feed back. Once they are accustomed to the more hardcore rules they'll leave the starting town and have the caravan as you said but no support in combat
So glad I found this video, I am currently running a game and my players have managed to capture and convince a goblin to help them into a goblin camp and I some how made this character where they love him. They want him every where, trying to gear the little guy out, nicknamed him pillow… I’m not sure what to do with this as of right now he is helping out. My players are very new and struggle a little bit so I’ve been allowing him to help out but it’s a bit of a strain to keep track of another stat sheet
I’m currently in a 2 person party (my sister and I lol) and we are both spellcasters. We kinda came up with a dragon-age-esq companion system where we made friends (of varied classes) and pick ones to tag along for different quests. So far it’s been really interesting, but no one becomes too DMPC.
You bring up some excellent points, but I like 90% disagree with part 3, specifically that the DM cannot be surprised by plot twists, that they don't get to make important decisions with consequences, or don't get challenged in combat. The DM is controlling all the enemies in combat -- that can be challenging to get right! You have a different goal than your players do in combat, i.e. to give them reasonable obstacles, but it's no less challenging. You can even give your enemy NPCs different goals, like maybe they start to run away, or they try to call for backup after a while, or they can try to destroy the special magic item that's there as loot etc. You can mix it up to make it challenging for you and the players in a way that doesn't necessarily result in TPKs. And if your party is really extreme, they may even want you to try and kill them or they won't be having fun (not for every party, admittedly). Also DMs do make important decisions -- for all the NPCs in the *entire world*, and if you want it to be something you/the players have to react to later, then have those NPCs be making decisions and doing stuff while the party is off adventuring. Then when the party gets back events have been moving along without them, and the world will feel more dynamic. They come back and react, then you (as the world/NPCs) will be reacting to the players, and then they will be reacting to you, repeat ad infinitum. And as a DM I am continually surprised by the strange new things my players think up to address situations they find, and this will absolutely twist the plot in strange new ways -- and then you'll have to react to those changes by, again, making important decisions. They might have lost the battle, or let someone important get kidnapped, and now you have to figure out how the world/NPCs/BBEG responds. This could drastically change the course of your world's history in a way you hadn't planned on. You can choose to let it morph with your players' actions instead of leaving it as a set-piece. As a last option, if you really really want to be surprised in a game that you're running ... have you considered trying any of the solo-play DND rules and incorporating those into your game as the DM? There are some 3rd party rules for solo play, and there are also lots of ideas you can borrow from other ttrpgs and import them into D&D (which I'm pretty sure is how the 3rd party solo rules came to be in D&D in the first place). Then you'll be using dice (usually called Oracles) to determine the world/NPCs' actions, and interpreting how that interconnects with other events in the world. So you'll still have to do worldbuilding and roleplay work with your NPCs, but the dice/Oracles are continually throwing curveballs at you that you have to respond to. I still agree with your overall point that you probably shouldn't have a DMPC in your own game ... but that could totally be a viable option if you're going really hard into the solo-play rules. You could even let your players controlling the enemies in combat that are closest to your PC or similar if you'd like to try that. Anyway, my point is that there are options! Forever DMs (like me), don't give up!
I have a story of a DMPC that I think was working out okay. It was my first campaign as DM, and the players were two of my close friends. They were kind of experienced with Dungeon World but had never played 5E. I was running Dragon of Icespire Peak, and they had a few close calls during their first few missions. They were feeling weak. They didn't realize that they were not only growing in strength quickly, but also I was adjusting the challenges for them to the best of my abilities. They spent a ton of time looking for other warriors to join their party, and I finally relented. I had a fighter join with them to help them in battles, and that helped relieve their stress. So, he did fight and had his own personality, but I didn't use him to solve problems or develop plans. That was on the players. I would have just let them control multiple characters in battle, but they were having a hard enough time keeping up with the ones they had. With the help of my character, they got more confident, and the story progressed much more quickly. They also seemed to like the character, so I guess I was lucky!
I have a perfect example of a semi forced DMPC that my players put onto me. So they knew this half giant, warforged whom was bodyguard of the empress. Gave quests, summomed them, ect. Run ahead they get into a previuosly ongoing fight where there is a staged coup. This NPC has 2 turns before she is incapped being grievously wounded due to soloing prior to them joining (this is a great way to introduce/use powerful NPCs without having them steamroll). Fast forwards again and she is to guide them very quickly to a temple. No fights, quick trip I think. Player uses desk of many out of randomness and teleport them all across the world. She ended up being a scout that went ahead and they follow her tracks, worried about the bad signs left behind. They end up setting up a rescue for her. Again, another great way to skip past having powerful NPCs always in the party. There was a massive dungeon crawl down the line in which they wanted her to join. I simplified her stats citing she was consistently wounded from the last few hardships and gave my party control of her for this one crawl. With a few other mercs they hired, it was a cool one off where they played almost like a dynasty warriors dungeon crawl tailored to the added backup.
I had one very good experience with DMPCs in a game. In college I played with three other guys and we all liked to DM. We decided that we wanted to play a longer campaign but couldn’t decide who would DM. Our solution was for us all to make PCs and then take turns DMing 2-4 month arcs. (We were playing planescape so as DMs we had the freedom to just take on a new plane as our world for that arc.) While we were DMing we would keep our PC around for continuity, but they took a back seat, becoming pseudoNPCs (for all the reasons you correctly state in your video). Still, they got experience and treasure so they wouldn’t fall behind. It was a great success, and one of the most unique and memorable campaigns I’ve ever played in.
We have a dmpc that was a goblin we had watch the horses and take up a spear to defend. Now he’s become a devout follower of our clerics deity and has become a half paladin. We also toss him some better weapons and he’s grown attached to our war horse. Doesn’t offer advice but battles like the rest of us and can occasionally heal when needed. Great addition and in a one off we are currently doing he is our healer while the cleric is dm’ing. Which our DM was super stoked about.
im a new dm, and (though it hasn't happened yet) one of best things about dming is seeing the reactions of players when they solve the mystery or find out the plot twist.
I'm so glad Monty mentioned putting all the DMPC effort into your villain because thats precisely what I've chosen to do in the past. I ran a short campaign where a rival party of adventurers acted as the villains, and in the campaign I'm currently running any one of my players could've literally created a carbon copy of my BBEG if they happened to pick the right race and multiclass combinations
New dm here. I have a dmpc in a LMOP, or at least I thought I did. I made a healer to join the campaign since my all brand new player group chose other things and I just want them to have fun with their very first character ideas. After watching so many dnd how to and don't videos, I did a lot to hold him back to make sure he never outshines my players, doesn't become their compass, isn't a convenient info dump and then I realized than my dmpc is actually just an npc that only fights and heals alongside the group in a support role. They kept Droop which gives them a second frontliner, so I now I think I'll drop him back and let them discover some healing potions to take with them. Thanks for helping me avoid major pitfalls as a new dm.
I love playing a DMPC, largely because when I first started playing Traveller, and D&D 1st ed, I often only had two players and needed to round out the party. One of my best moments as with a DMPC, was when he sacrificed his life, so that the other players could survive. It was an epic, emotional moment for the players and myself. The key to most DMPCs is to leave them in the background, play them as introverts, and use them to assist the player's goals and plans, and not to have them in the limelight. If you are a good roleplayer, then a DMPC can actively contribute to the player's fun, especially, if they are a bit unusual. Once, I generated an intelligent Australian King Parrot (I love them!), that could talk to the players, and was unbeknownst to the players a Dragonfire Adept. The players in this game were a friend and his children, aged about 12-16 at the time. If I was a completely unoptimised and terrible DFA, but it was enough for what I wanted it to do. The kids loved the parrot! Even more so, when it happened to save the party (mostly on account of the kid's lack of familiarity with roleplaying), revealing itself as more than an intelligent bird, for the first time. It was a wonderful moment for them, that truly bought home the incredibly captivating world of D&D, and some of the ways that it can provide moments of awe. So, yes, used properly, the DMPC can be a great addition to a party. On the other hand, I've found that DMPCs are often a warning sign of a bad DM. Over COVID, I had the misfortune of playing in an online game with a DMPC. This was D&D 5e, and I came in at third level paladin, while the DMPC was a 6th level necromancer, with an army of skeletons. That game went about as well, as you might expect. The DMPC was the only evil character in the party, and I didn't know about it until I'd started playing. Basically, the evil DMPC, was the Mary Sue of the (IMHO psychologically disturbed) DM, who enjoyed screwing the players over, and I very quickly left the game, and it collapsed the next session, when all the other players decided that enough was enough. I've seen DMPCs ruin games in all the ways described in this video, and more, but seem to be one of the few people who've cracked the code on this.
How do YOU define a DMPC? What's the difference between a major NPC and a DMPC?
Whether the DM constantly forgets to roll initiative for them in combat or that they are even there at all! :,)
I'd offer a rather limited definition: a DMPC is an NPC that allows the DM to also be a player. This means that an NPC that sticks with the party every single session doesn't have to be a DMPC.
To prevent a regular NPC from being a DMPC, a DM can:
1. ensure that it doesn't solve puzzles or social encounters (much easier if they don't speak and terrible Int and Cha);
2. let the party control it in combat, unless they specifically ask you to do so;
3. target the DMPC if a party member has to die, especially as a result of a social encounter (e.g. Xanathar must disintegrate someone, or a hostage needs to be taken).
In other words: a tool, not a character.
A DMPC is an NPC the players want to be brought along on the adventure and ran by the DM in combat... Tasha's actually has a system called sidekicks which is an interesting way to make a DMPC as other than the Warrior I think they are all flat weaker than a PC of their level (after about level 3 as some of the available monsters have a lot of HP)
One measuring stick can be an escort mission. The party escorts the NPC, and the DMPC escorts the party.
@@harrywhiteley89 You make a good point about that. Sidekicks ARE part of an official rulebook. Agree with companions/henchmen/DMPCs (whatever you want to call them) or not, there's obviously demand for not only being able to have major NPCs play more of a role, having more personality and development, and more importantly to have structured rules regarding when and how they can be implemented. If they're not railroading the party (or otherwise carrying the party), I don't see what the big issue is. Should a DM just not roleplay any of the NPCs then? It's one thing to give examples of good and bad implementation, but I think it's a bit much saying that the mechanic ITSELF will "destroy your DnD".
@RC Schmidt Exactly. They shouldn't be carrying the party. If DM's want to make NPCs feel heroic (example: wanting to portray a King or Queen as someone who "leads from the front lines, rather than cowers in their fortresses"), I generally like the "off camera method".
Outnumbered in forces, the NPC knight commander asks the players to aid in a strategy they hope will turn the tide of an ongoing conflict. The players are tasked with luring the enemy to a specific location and holding so that the knight commander's forces can attempt to encircle and route the enemy. Whether this succeeds (or not) is reliant soley on the performance of the party. They have their own smaller conflict, but it's given added weight by the stakes involved. Everything else happens off camera, but the NPC is never actually involved in the players fight (because they're somewhere else). The NPC might not die themselves, but how many troops they lose could be how you RP the overall results of the encounter.
We have only ever had one DMPC and they were a half orc fighter with no real plotline. The DM created them because me and the other players all had low AC and low HP when we first started the campaign. After a certain level the half orc left us and has become a reoccuring fun NPC for our characters to talk to.
That's a good philosophy, although I refer to them as enhanced NPCs. It's not dissimilar to using a retired PC as an NPC eg [Spoilers]
Vox Machina appearing in Critical Role campaign 3 or Arkhan the Cruel in the Descent into Avernus module. I would say that their only plot motive should be to help the party for a mission and then go back to their life.
Sounds like a rare case of DMPC done right. I created a DMPC for an old campaign of mine (home-brewed WH40K before Dark Heresy) because stupidly back then I had the philosophy of creating a story that would happen if they didn't interact with it but it's up to them how they affect things. They totally lacked any characters with any sort of knowledge of the Warp, and they were determined to go into said warp, and I didn't want to just say "you die, torn asunder over an eternity and going mad in a flash" so added a limited unsanctioned psyker to help. After they got out they said after the game the NPC was a Mary-Sue and made them feel redundant. Cue the blue screen face from me. It kind of felt like they wanted the rollercoaster despite being too short for the ride, then complained at the extra straps keeping them safe. I certainly gave plenty of warnings that following the Big Bad into hell on their home turf wasn't going to work out well, and they seemed eager to prod everything, and back then I was too eager to be a people pleaser.
Now, 20+ years later, we're playing Mothership, where doing dumb shit gets you killed (even doing everything well will probably still get you killed) and they seem to still enjoy my games, so yeah, totally agree DMPCs mostly suck.
Apart from when PCs decide a disposable NPC is now the most beloved mascot, and they tell you that they must come with the party at all times. If the PCs genuinely delight at interacting with an NPC and want to roleplay every. single. camp. and. bar. conversation, then I'd say go for it but come up with a reason so they don't get extra party member privileges (extra rolls, actions, attacks etc).
If you really feel like the party is missing a role or is too small (sometimes it's an issue for a prewritten adventure or for what the DM has in mind) then sidekicks from Tasha's are a great substitute. Have a player run them in combat, let them be a voice for DM input out of combat. Sidekicks are balanced to be support for the team instead of pulling focus away from the PCs.
I’m in a similar position. All my players are martial classes. I had another player who was a Wizard/Cleric who since left the game so I did some jiggery-pokery and now I’m playing that character lol
In my first campaign ever I experimented with DMPCs, but all of them became npcs by now except for one: a human wizard.
There are 2 reasons she stayed:
1. She has utility spells, but not the same that players have access to (Leomund's Tiny Hut, for example).
2. One of the players seduced her as a joke, so it became pretty damn hard to justify her not being with other players.
I am a father who DMs for my two sons. They like for me to have a character so we can all get gear and level up together. I let the boys choose all important decisions but I pitch in when it makes sense or the story stalls without diminishing their leadership of the story. Using your analogies, my DMPC is more like Gandalf. I give some guidance on where to go, I might block the big bad on the bridge, but I mostly step away when the party is in the thick of it.
I have a similar experience. My wife and kids wanted me to DM them but after they made their characters they (mostly my wife) wanted me to make up a character also. Because they were only three characters I asked my wife and son to role up two characters each and my daughter only being 8 at the time I just thought one character is enough for her. I hear people say players should never play two characters and just use one. I have never experienced any issue with multiple characters for a player. I play Ad&d 1e and death can come from around any corner, so having a proper size party is very helpful. None of the them chose a cleric so I just riled up a cleric and she just sticks close to my sons wizard. Kind of like a glorified henchman.
Omg the secret ingredient to DMPC i love!
Im about to do this as well, i have a young daughter that i want to introduce to the D&D starter sets. Unfortunately those games require around 4 players to be balanced properly. so i plan on putting my "DMPC" in the party, maybe a sidekick and a pet, to fill out the group, But still letting her make all the important choices.
One recommendation I would add for the Forever DM: don't just beg one of your players to run a 1-shot or short campaign. Instead, work to _mentor_ them. They'll be more willing, more comfortable, and ultimately a better DM for you because of it.
I agree completely. Got one of my players who likes to run one shots for me when I am feeling tired. He gets very excited when he finds one he wants to run. He uses me as a reference for rules, but has become quite confident in running his games.
I did this, and we now trade off DMing. I play the NPCs that we make, and it helps to make the entire campaign feel more collaborative. As long as the DM is not a forever DM because of ego (these guys can't run this), then if players are just scared to DM they need to get over it and tag out. You are a group, and as long as you are not overly possessive of the world, and are okay with them expanding it, you should let them run a few games, then trade off.
My players have literally dragged like 6 of my NPCs into their party and they love having them around because of the separate personalities I gave them. They each have a story that can be explored (one of them is actually being explored atm thanks to the party taking a huge interest in it) and the party likes that potential
These are the best kind of dmnpc's.
Bless you based DM
same, every campaign i end up playing a dmpc because the players fall in love with them and won't let them leave
I love the DNPCs in in our game too! Our DM is the BEST. They are all seperate people with individual personalities and backstories. I honestly don't know how he does that, handles all of our storylines, the overall story arc of his world, AND work a full time job!
I've GM'd games and had GMNPC's -- and never had any complaints either (although, seriously, I've never tried to handle as many as my current DM).
I would be very sad if all of our DMNPCs went away.... several are romantic interests, others are just good friends of the party.
So your players have made a dating sim game
@@cyberpunk-2O77 Love doesn't have to be romantic.
My intention was never to have a DMPC, but my party would drag a random npc everywhere until he was basically a part of it. Though I did keep him 2 levels behind everyone else and really only spoke when spoken to. It was organic and really filled in the missing roles in the party without taking anything away. The party's love for this guy is what is keeping him on board.
YES! I love it! I have a similar character, but instead of being kept weaker than the party she is Lv. 20 with total and irrecoverable amnesia (beyond even a Wish. It makes sense in-setting). So she "levels up" by the party discovering or teaching her things. So far, they have taught her to defend herself with a staff and found that she can float in place but has no control over it (which terrified her).
She is no more involved than the party makes her. They are welcome to drop her off at any time, they literally revived and requited her themselves. And hoo boy, they love trying to figure out what secrets she might have! (Not much, really. Like I said, total amnesia).
Kinda like if you took Samus in Metroid Other M, but without any memories whatsoever or even knowledge of what a Power Suit is.
When I was running CoS, there were three NPCs in particular that my party fell in love with. Ireena, Doru, and a homebrew add on (a dog. In r/CurseofStrahd, people call the dog Lancelot, but I named them Ryaba after a Russian Fairytale). My party, when I had to bring up the ally to them decided that they wanted the dog.
Mind you, the youngest player was 17, turning 18 and my oldest player is in their 40s. And they all got excited like 12 year old children at the thought that Strahd's enemy was a recently awakened dog with Paladin and Warlock classes that was always excited and loved belly rubs.
I’ve done something similar but I kept the key NPC half of the level,that the PC’s were, not 2 levels lower.
That was my experience too except I tried to control them during combat too. Way too much work. This time, I'm only doing the personality side of the NPCs. I'll let my players do the rest and they can decide if it's worth it or not. 😅
@@JarieSuicune This is an automated notification informing you that your idea has been marked and stolen for use elsewhere.
I definitely think Gandalf in LOTR could be considered an NPC to the fellowship. He gives exposition and dialogue. He leaves, gets imprisoned, and then comes back. He "dies" in order to give everyone more motivation. He's a deus ex machina for the fight at helms deep, faramir at minas tirith, and frodo and sam at the volcano.
galadriel, golem, tree beard, elrond, witch king are all npcs also.
Yeah, Gandalf is the DMPC, and for narrative games he, and possibly even Frodo (at least in the movies, not the books) are the perfect examples of DMPCs that could work in a narrative tabletop.
They either exposit and save people's asses, or they are there to have the shittiest job.
@@LupostehgreatI suppose you're right. He's a lot more involved with directly helping the party, but he acts a lot more like a DMPC would than a normal PC. It's hard to say I guess.
@@travisdacon9480 so I could see an argument for DMPC; the boundaries between essential NPC and DMPC have to involve the DM's investment in the character. A capable DM can absolutely have a DMPC, and the party would never know they are that. They would just assume they are an essential NPC. So much of this stuff is subjective as all hell, and varies table to table (some tables despise any and all story elements being introduced, whereas other tables can have massive parties of DMPCs and suck it all up and love it), but I think a solid argument could be made for both Frodo and potentially Gandalf being a DMPC, just 2 different flavors that can be made to work. The dude who knows everything and fucks off when the party needs to stand on its own, and the dude who does the job of basically being a plot device the other characters have to make decisions around and doesn't get to do a ton of cool stuff but provides weight to the story.
LoTR isn't a good analogue for D&D at all. Try Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser. I would have said Conan, except he's definitely a DMPC.
As I've probably mentioned here before, I DM a 5e game for my kid and their friends. They're currently playing a Bard, a Warlock and a Rogue. I gave them a Mastiff Companion that I decked out with the Warrior sidekick class to fill the tank role. Admittedly I have used the pooch to "nudge" my players in the right direction if they were struggling with a puzzle once or twice, but imo nothing excessive. It's been a good compromise for us so far.
This is a great solution and a wonderful way to use the Sidekick rules.
@@DungeonDudes Great video. Did I zone out in item 2 when you talked about sidekicks? My crew lost a player, and I'm kind of happy because I want us to play with sidekicks, and we have a really good reason now.
That’s cool! You’re an awesome dad! Also, what kid doesn’t want a giant mastiff companion in real life?
I did something similar. I gave a party a blink dog healer sidekick. He would come to lick wounds (cure wounds) or occasionally sneeze (fairy fire) but that's it. It helps that blink dogs only speak blink dog, so the party just has a magical pet. He died in a boss encounter and was eaten to the bone by rats, but the players decided they wanted him back and paid almost 2000 gp to get the dog resurrected.
"You can have a party of all bards and be fine"
As a DM, I would certainly not be fine with an all bards party 😂
the first campaign i played in was almost entirely barbarians. the second campaign was 3 rogues and my wizard. both games were chaos, both DMs had a love/hate relationship with combat.
I currently run a all bard party. It’s fun
Wouldn't a party of bards be called a band... That could be fun.
@@madprunes a band... how did I never think of that
I would just embrace it and make the campiest campaign ever XD
Kelly and Monty: you can be totally fine without a healer
Wilhelm with 2hp, running away from a contaminated monster: I am not fine, guys!
Meanwhile, Wilhelm has several healing potions on his person.
2 HP isn't 0HP. One requires a healer, the other does not.
@@schemage2210 Well both situations still need healing, but I get your point.
Sounds like a wonderfully intense, high stakes moment that having a healer might have robbed you of. Yay!
Thats why I preffer how healing works on pf2
@@schemage2210 Technically another player could use their action to feed a downed player a health potion, but I get your point
Personally I feel like it is appropriate to have a DMPC when the players actively ask you to have one.
I was In a really small group, It was just me and a friend, and I wanted to RP as a dedicated healer, so I just told the DM "Hey, can you make a character and help us out a bit? or maybe a guard can join us or something"
For those really small groups, DMPCs work far better. And since the biggest pitfall, the way I see it, is the DM prioritising their own fun, if the players are the ones who want it, it's actually something to consider.
Friend of mine also had a dmpc in his small group. Definitely seems fine in smaller groups if needed
Gahhhhh I was literally just thinking “I should put a DMPC into my new homebrew campaign!” *phone dings, read title* “Awww”
It's a sign, dude.
They knew
Make the friggin dood anyways
It's just their opinion
I do dm pcs and I minmaxs them cause of my players but I use my dm pcs sparingly
I think DMPCs work in a few key cases if they're handled well with finesse, because obviously anything that's poorly handled is going to make for a bad experience at the table. One of my favourite ways to use a DMPC is to create a character who the party forms a bond with, and becomes attached to and then ultimately that character they've been adventuring with, who they think is their friend... turns out to actually be the ultimate villain of the story that betrays them near the end of the campaign. It makes for a much more personal connection between the party and the villain, as they now feel genuinely betrayed by someone they thought was their friend.
My brother has always been the DM in every group. He has never actually been able to play for years. He asked me if I could try out DMing and it totally changed our whole family. Now I run a full home brew world campaign with 6 PCs. All of us meet up twice a month to play. It's been some of the best times I've had in years.
That’s awesome!
My first ever game was with a bunch of buddies in highschool. Our buddy who dmed made a pc so he could teach us better. It was honestly essential, helped alot of us who had no clue what we were doing
My group is small (just myself and someone else). I agree with dungeon dudes here - very important NPCs, not DM PCs. It's all about mindset. We function as a group of one player character with four NPCs (that the player controls and manages for combat).
My partner is going to be running a campaign for just me. Any tips on making a 1 to 1 campaign work ?
Any and all advice would be appreciated. Combat, non combat etc
@@Demonheero360 I run a one-on-one for my partner. My partner's character has a sidekick that I run, though she will absolutely take suggestions/orders/etc from their character. The line I try to balance is making sure the PC has enough information/support, while still making sure this story is About Them - they're the protagonist. From a dms perspective I'd say don't be afraid to play to your strengths.
Same for me several years ago, but when we finally got more players and i tried to retire my dmpc my players refused to let me lol, they liked him to much despite me continually trying to retire him.
@@Demonheero360 don’t do it, it’s as useless as playing checkers by yourself
Nice, let’s you focus on personalized story instead of waiting for your spot
When I first transitioned from player to DM, I had a DMPC for sure. In our group of 5, we would switch out DM duties often. There were 3 part-time DMPCs, depending on who felt like DMing. It just felt more cohesive to keep 5 party members together all the time instead of trying to explain away the absence. As long as everyone at the table is on board with the concept it's not really a problem. It actually allows more games to get played. Sessions don't get cancelled when the DM is feeling burnt. Some one else just steps in. Plus with more weeks off, burnout is less of an issue to begin with.
As a DM who has run a fair amount of DMPCs, I want to make a few points:
The most common reason for me to make a DMPC is because the group only has two or three players, and the game really does get harder with a small party. The other common reason is that it's a relatively short or not-that-serious adventure (like our "not enough players can come tonight" backup campaign, or the Level 16 dungeon run), and so it's just a good time to break out a crazy build and have some fun.
I always discuss it with the players before the campaign starts and build it to complement their PCs. I'm pretty good at separating out DM and player knowledge, but DMPCs do stay out of puzzle-solving and take a low-key approach to roleplaying and party decisions (though they may offer an opinion, based on their characterization). Assertiveness usually is a negative trait in DMPCs. For combat, they tend to make obvious actions, but I'll also ask the players what they want the DMPC to do in the fight. If someone's PC is elsewhere or gets paralyzed or something, I'll hand over the reins on the DMPC so they have something to do. This, in my experience, makes the players feel like the DMPC is a part of their team, rather than an outsider forced on them. With my most successful DMPC, she once two-shot a major boss through enormous quantities of sneak attack damage, and the players CHEERED because "we did it!". (That DMPC worked really well because she could put out enormous damage, but only with set-up or the party's aid, so for her to perform well, a team effort was required.)
While many of your descriptions of why a running a DMPC is different from running a PC are accurate (it is, indeed, hard to enjoy solving a mystery that you wrote), the claim that "you can't give yourself a challenge in combat" is absolutely false. You may know what the enemies are likely to do and what their strengths and weaknesses are, but that's a long way from actually beating them, especially when dice are involved. (One PC can rarely win a whole encounter on their own anyways, so you're still dependent on the regular players' PCs and decisions to emerge victorious.) It can actually be a lot of fun to put down a hard encounter and say "I don't know how we are going to get out of this one, but I'm sure we can figure something out." This is doubly true if you are running a pre-written module or adventure, because there is another layer to it, as the DM running the DMPC didn't actually create the challenges - a separate author did. There can definitely be a place for DMPCs combined with "okay, guys, I am running this adventure exactly as written" or "I am going to run the monsters as ruthlessly deadly as possible, let's see if we can beat that." (DMPCs probably work best for combat-heavy or dungeon-crawl type adventures, rather than roleplay-heavy or intrigue ones, since the mechanics do more lifting there.)
Now, DMPCs are not for everyone or every campaign. They can DEFINITELY go wrong. I personally have a good ability to separate my DM and player knowledge, and I have a group that trusts me to not cheat or steal their agency or use the whole thing as an ego trip, but not everyone has those factors. That said, I do think it's a bit harmful to run around telling newer DMs looking for advice "NEVER DO THIS BAD THING AND YOU ARE BAD IF YOU DO IT" when it can be a legitimate technique (especially if they are running a small, inexperienced group).
I`m just giving you standing applause, because YES. DMPC is a tool, you can cut some meat with a knife or you can stab a person with it. It`s really easy to abuse that level of power, but i think it`s completely wrong to say that *no one person ever* had a dmpc done right, and that everyone who does this is *bad* .
I have a dmpc in my first campaign, which is still running, simply because I wanted to have my own _constant_ character. To have something unchanging and _mine_ in an official setting where everything is not a my creation, and to have a connection within the party. It works out pretty well, my fighter is not a dashing hero, he`s more shy and silent, he knows something about the world, but definitely not everything. Mostly, he`s just here. And recently I`ve been abandoning him more and more in terms or roleplay, to the point where one of my players expressed concern that he doesn`t feel like a character anymore (which is very sad).
And I agree that DMPC should never be forced, but it`s nothing wrong in them occasionally shining and having their own moments, if it doesn`t hurt the group. If everything, it can make this character feel more like a part of the group. Like, DMPC kills a demon who had a long history of confrontation with other pc and basically steals an important kill? Awful. DMPC kills a monster in some random encounter? Why not. I think it`s more plausible to give NPCs and DMPCs their victories too, otherwise they would feel like a cardboard background for the party. And of course you should never kill a huge danderous monster in one turn this way (thus robbing a whole group of a win), but I would say that one-turn-kills feel bad in general, regardless of if a pc or npc/dmpc does it.
Yep, I agree with all of this. There is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with a DMPC. It's how it is used. You can absolutely do this. And all of these examples they use "THAT COULD BE A PLAYER CHARACTER REEE!!!!" K, but if nobody WANTS that, then it can be an DMPC if it is necessary. I would argue circles around these arguments against a DMPC because it all boils down to A) intent and B) skill separating meta knowledge, which any good DM should be able to do anyway.
I use DMPCs because I only play with my ONE player and don't want to force them to play all 4 party members so we split them between us. Never has it been an issue at our table.
Completely agree on all points. Very well said. Besides, depending on how you go about your DMPC, it may add comedic relief to the party - on top of what the players create. Case-in-point: Narayana - the DMPC I am running in my Shadowrun campaign is a 12-meter (approximately 40ft) snake which by now has become a bit of a pet for the party in addition to being their mage. And yet, even though he can speak and is pretty intelligent, he is still but a sentient animal - and acts like that as well. To the point after having gotten pinched in a bulkhead aboard a submarine, he later telekinetically dragged a cutting torch to said bulkhead - intent on cutting away the lower portion of it so he could get through unimpeded. Watertight integrity? What is that?
The last part is especially relevant. I've seen videos (for example, from Pack Tactics) saying "fudging numbers is bad, and you should always consider yourself as having failed if you have to do it." while Matt Colville, a much smarter individual and game designer, explicitly states "Encounter balance doesn't stop once you've rolled initiative."
I find that most of these "controversial" things fall under Rule 1: If it makes the game fun for everyone, do it. If it doesn't, don't.
Player here, my DM has had a DMPC during our long ass 5 year campain. We love that dude, he is never gonna get away from us. he is our tired ex-alcoholic uncle an he is staying with us. The DM made him because we had never played Dungeons and Dragons before and we were shy and kind of a mess. Having a PC for guidance really helped during our first fights before we got into the hang of things. Now 5 years later we are finally finishing our campain and our DM wants to start another one in the setting for Eberron. He has created this really cool fighter girl that we all already love. The DMPC can be fun to have around and it doesn't have to take agency away from the players. Also if we notice that happening we can just tell the DM after the session, he is our friend and he is contantly trying to improve so he listens when there is a concerns about anything we find somehow unfair. A fact that hasn't been pointed out here is that when you have a long campain a lot of times people get art, make memes, interact with the other players characters and they form fun dynamics. A DMPC allows the DM to also have that and not be the weird one out. In my opinion if an NPC following the party is OK why is not a DMPC? The character is already following the party so might as well fight too, there is nothing more boring than scort missions lol. Maybe it hasn't worked for you guys but that doesn't mean is not going to work at all.
My players ended up adopting a young orphaned girl and have been training her to fight whilst also giving her an education and magic training. She's currently a 3rd level arcane trickster rogue and has been growing alongside the party, even fighting in combat. It was not my intention to have a DMPC, but the players love her and won't stop RPing with her so I guess we're all good haha.
This is exactly my problem with people saying you shouldn't have a DMPC. They should instead warn you of the risks of having one. I've made a bunch of DMPCs, I always ask my players what they think, and they always LOVE them, they want them to stay in the party and they say the game is more fun because of them. So instead of crucifying DMPCs, I think people should just...warn DMs about the possible problems. Some groups are actually well equipped to handle DMPCs and even benefit from them.
Gods, imagine how heartbreaking it would be if that little girl got hurt in battle though! As the DM who gave them the NPC, it's sometimes easy to fall into that idea that monsters and enemies would ignore or go easy on that NPC because of being a little girl, when in reality they shouldn't. Hopefully the players understand that and know to protect her with strategic placement and stuff.
@CeranVA she went down for the first time last session. They were not happy about it, they just about dumped every resource imaginable into her and then immediately murdered the one who did it to her haha.
@@MasterNox Nice! Every party has to have a berserk button, haha.
there's a big difference between going out of your way to make one and forcing it on your players and them willingly asking you to turn a liked NPC into a party member. I'd say that's more along the lines of a well-liked NPC, and you should be proud that you've accomplished that
I'm currently in a pathfinder game with two DM's and one of them has a DMPC, and its worked out quite well. He's been a valuable part of the party without overshadowing the PC's. Though he's the guy who got all our character's together, other characters stepped up as the faces of the party, while the DMPC only really speaks spoken to or if the DM thinks he's input would be useful to steer us in the right direction.
This. Its all about how you use the tool. Dont try to hammer a nail with a screwdriver and itll work out well.
Pretty much how I always run my DMPC. I make no major choices, often forgotten about but there doing things in the background in my own head, and as someone who plays a lot of non dnd games, no one els is willing to run non dnd 90% of the time and when they do it’s ether great because it’s something they love, actually playing in a fallout game run by one of my group and they are rocking it and I’m loving it, or they have zero interest in reading the books. Pretty much every onyx path game we play. Trinity Continuum and Scion are some of my favorite games and where they will play when I run and ask to play all the time, no one would run the game except me. The one time I got to play in Aberrant the GM totally left core concepts which is one of the major pillars of the game I really loved, that being science and not magic, they took it right back to magic.
This character could just as easily be a Sidekick, or even just one of the players. Doesn't have to be a DMPC
@@Taeerom Maybe they have less players then recommended? Finding a new player that fits with your group can be dicey. Sidekicks are cool but they really aren't that different from a character made with the PHB so why limit it to 3 classes?
Most importantly there is also a good chance that players don't want to play a certain class to fulfil a niche that the party desperately needs.
As long as you play the character honest without giving them DM powers and separate DM knowledge there is 0 difference between a PC, NPC statblock or Sidekick statblock.
@@luminous3558 None of the reasons you are listing is any reason whatsoever to have a dmpc. None.
Few players doesn't matter. You can play DnD with as few as zero actual players.
There are no niche that needs to be filled by any character. You can solve healing by a single wand of cure wounds, or nothing at all. This is not WoW.
The only reason to have a DMPC is if the DM wants to play. And honestly, that's a reason to never play at that table. Because that is a DM that is going to suck.
This was something I came up with in response to the whole "DM vs Players" mindset, but can also be applied here.
"The DM is not the Red Team. They are the umpire, the nets or goals, the arena, the ball and the support staff. They may be the opposition, but they are not the enemy."
I think by far the biggest reason why "DM vs. Players" mindset is such a widespread problem because people new to D&D assume they can and should "win".
The real problem with DM vs Players come from DM's who can't ever let anything they create die, and are angry and upset when a player does something that didn't go according to the DM's expectations and they can't handle it.
To me a real DM is someone who is a world generator/simulator. I am such a DM. I create worlds. I generate characters that are NPCs with goals, dreams, relationships, drama, etc. Then enter the players... they get to interact with said world and the world reacts to what the players do and interact with.
I had a player who could never seem to get the concept I was a Referee and not an Opponent. This same player also had trouble separaring NPC's, my DMPC, and. me IRL.
Eventually they got it, but I bet they still slip all the time and we dont even realize.
@howzany6832 i had a GM who said they were just a simulator and world responder. A totally neutral party.
That GM ended up being the epitome of an opponent. Anytime anyone wanted to have fun, they would threaten the entire world against them. The entire reason was super transparent: they didnt want us to be jerks to their NPC's or be murder hobos. But I came to kick butt and chew bubblegum, and the GM didnt supply the bubblegum.
I eventually got tired of being threatened by a godlike entity, and made pacts with the other more mischievous players to troll the GM a bit, be extra violent jerks, and when he threatened what was essentially an army of police will come to kill us, we just replied "And we will kill all those jerks too!" But in my head I was thinking "I dont care. I'd rather die having fun than live another moment in your boring on-rails themepark story.
In his defense, he was still new to GMing. Apparently when I was still newer, many of my players wanted to quit immediately bc I was so bad. So i figure thats kindof a normal learning curve
You went a different direction than I expected with the DM who wants to be a player. With most of those things you listed, you can just change your mindset and the DM gets a lot of those things.... a lot of those things can be surprises that the players bring to the DM. You don't always need a clear cut answer to every situation your players bring to the table, let them surprise you.
Agreed, I was thinking they might go the whole Dungeon Worlds way and "Play to find out what happens." This is personally what I have done. If you ask the players for input into creating the world then you can be just as surprised as you are when you play as a PC. Some other things that can help with this is to not determine so much ahead of time. If you've got several ideas that could work, create a random table and then roll on it when the time is appropriate. You can still capture some of the wonderment and discovery.
@@wakkowarner8637but if players make the story, they don’t get the surprise
@@ДюсековИльяс It's collaborative. The point is, if the DM doesn't make every decision in the story (leaving some to the players), then the DM can still be surprised.
Sidekicks (which they mechanically control) who is mostly silent but can speak up in important RP scenes is another strategy we have now.
This actually made me reconsider the DMPC that I was running alongside some newer players because while I claimed it was to fill the role of the tank, I realize that subconsciously I just miss the player experience and I want to be a player more than a DM the way I used to be.
The only roles in DND are damage and utility. A wizard who casts hypnotic pattern or banishment on half the enemies is "tanking" far more damage than a fighter who has 18 ac and is "healing" far more damage than a Cleric who casts cure light wounds.
@@Sajuekwhat about all the enemies that save the throw?
gl to your wizard with 40 hp at level 8 lmao
@@mac_sour Do you understand the meaning of the word mitigation or not? And why do you seem to think wizards are soft targets? Most level 8 wizards are rocking an AC they can pump up to 25-28 with a shield spell.
But anyway. Let’s say we’re fighting 3 enemies that somehow always hit and deal 10 damage each time they do. They have above average willpower saves and so will save against a grimoire-toting wizard’s hypnotic pattern 1/3rd of the time.
Scenario 1, you play a healbot cleric. You delay casting cure wounds at level 3 to the end of the enemies’ turn. They deal 30 damage to your party. You heal 3d8+5 of that therefore mitigating on average 17 points of damage to your party. Next turn any alive enemies deal a further 10 damage. You need to use more spell slots to mitigate further.
Scenario 2. You play a wizard. You cast hypnotic pattern knocking 2 enemies out of the fight. The last guy either wastes his turn waking up a friend (30 damage mitigated this turn) or he hits a member of the party (20 damage mitigated this turn). Next turn any enemies under hypnotic pattern are still having all of their damage mitigated leaving you free to do actions or deal damage to awake enemies with either spells or cantrips to spells.
Even clerics should not typically cast healing spells and instead focus on damage and utility. A sentinel cleric with spirit guardians up will “heal” more than a Cleric spamming cure wounds any day.
"I want to be a player too" is a perfectly valid reason to make a DMPC. Be upfront with your players about that and don't jam the DMPC into the spotlight and the players will probably be fine with it. They generally want you to have a good time too!
@connerhuntington6094 I think your reason to include an NPC to tag along is fine. Heck sometimes my players go out of their way to adopt various NPC's when I expect them to butcher them or something. And sometimes il put such a whacky or fun NPC on their path that they want to keep in touch with him or ask me if its oke if he tags along.
And sometimes I do just that. So long as your npc isent soloing the adventure for them but is just helping them it should be just fine. Heck, sometimes it makes total sense. If the party is in a region theyre not very familiar with it makes sense they hire a local ranger to be their guide. Or a druid finds them lost in the forest and guides them to a safer location or something. If therye in a new town (well new town for them) and theyre looking around the local crime lords might send someone to...keep them out of trouble. Or see what theyre up to. Maybesee if theres something that they can leverage of the players to do a job for them. Not all npc intereactions have to be 100% posistive :) they then also get the satisfaction of getting revenge later on as well. There are so many ways you can intereact with them with a cool or fun npc that isent intruding in their story that you should be just fine :)
What generally is regarded as the DMPC is someones personal avatar that they use to feel powerfull or smart. Some character that they find so aamazing in their heads that the party is granted the honour of beeing present in the same story as him. Sadly thats not an exegeration either. Some people think their npc avatars are that awesome and nothing on this planet can convince them otherwise. Its such a widespread problem in the dnd community that theres entire youtube channels that just read dnd horror stories to the vieuwers. The vast majority of those stories have the DMPC as the cause of the horror story.
I’ve been waiting for this.
I’ve been playing DMPC’s right alongside the party for years, and they hardly ever notice, because they’re indistinguishable from NPC’s. Here are some tips to keep things smooth:
- Never plan on having them as a permanent fixture in the party. Always have them be someone related to the quest /overall party objective.
- Never force the party to take anyone on. Give them a choice of who they want to take with them, and when.
- likewise, never have the character fully commit to the party either. Have them make realistic choices about how far they go, when, and why. They have lives, motivations, and responsibilities not bound by the party.
- never make them too much stronger (or too much weaker) than the party, depending on their role. This is flexible, but never breakable.
- always roll for them last while out of combat. If the group is making perception checks, and another player succeeded, you don’t even need to roll; so as not to steal the spotlight. If everyone else fails, this gives “the party” one more chance to succeed.
Here are some examples of “DMPC’s” that I have used, and the context I’ve used them in:
The local innkeeper is worried because a longtime family friend was supposed to be in town by now, but has not arrived. They hire the party to investigate the mountains to the north, where the friend would have been traveling from. The innkeeper’s daughter (battlemaster, level 4) wants to prove her independence to her parent, and asks to go along with the party to rescue the family friend.
The local ruler’s son (fighter 2, cleric 1) is seen by the party, praying frantically at the temple of the god that the party’s cleric worships. He discloses to the Cleric that he is being sent visions of a site that is holy to the cleric’s god, and has not been able to get restful sleep since the visions began. His prayers being unanswered, he implores the party to escort him to the holy site so that he may commune with the god in a more direct manner.
The apprentice (Warlock, level 3) of a merchant the party is friends with wants to get a rare and exotic pet for their mentor as a birthday gift. However, the animal they seek is a prey species to a much more dangerous creature, and cannot go alone.
Obviously, not every quest can be this way. And often, parties will have multiple “irons in the fire” rather than quest, return, quest, return, etc. BUT as a DM, you can control which plot hooks get introduced, and when. This style will definitely be more geared toward DM’s who run a “sandbox” style campaign.
A good rule of thumb is to think “Does the person giving the party this quest think that they are too weak to join the party? Does the person giving this quest think they are too important or preoccupied to join them?” If the answer to both is no, why not have them come along?
Your "DMPCs" are just regular NPCs. I don't see why you insist calling them DMPCs when they're clearly not?
This made me feel much better about the npc /dmpc I run with my group. he has a good Pam build but is silent most of the time unless we are at camp or something that's not hugely related to the quest.
My DM during a Curse of Strahd campaign rolled up a Halfling Farmer NPC due to one of our players working off of the "This is your Life" table from Xanathar's Guide. The group didn't really want to try and cover for this guy in the middle of the Death House section so we equipped him with a crossbow and a shortsword. Surprisingly, he held his own with some good rolls and was really a badass. The whole group came to the conclusion, much to the DM's choice, that the NPC would be given Fighter class levels and grew to be a well respected part of our party and a good friend to one of the players!
We always did it because there were only two of us that would play. Everyone else in town thought it was devil worship. So my brother would dm and played his character, and when I finally got old enough, i would be dm and would play my chareacter. Its all about if you can not get a big head and enjoy the game for the games sake.
Same. I’m not a fan of DMPC shaming. People got to play D&D however they can manage without having to feel guilty for working within your means and comfort level. It’s hard to find a big group that gets along
@@SCAW1972 thats so true. If you wanted to play, its what you had to do. We lived on a farm, and had so much work to do, that my older brother would just make up stuff out of his head. But it was how we played.
Exactly, I'm sick of people DMPC shaming. It's up to the table a the end of the day.
@@shawnwolf5961 right. They talk all this stuff, then wonder why no-one is playing. Most people work. Or go to school, ets... if you get a chance to play, you dont want to be locked into a ruleset that shames you into their way of playing.
Having DMing a campaign for 2 players, it was almost essential to have a DM NPC, although he didn't take any important decisions, he was at least an additional target and gave them an additional action..magic items don't really solve the danger of a 2 players party, where they only have 2 actions and there is only 2 targets, if 1 falls..If I had to redo it, I would go with "companions" or an extra PC each..which is exactly what I was going to do before the game fizzled...
Way back when I ran a 2nd Ed campaign and only had two players to start, neither were very experienced so I didn’t want to have them try to run more than one character. So I did run a few different NPC’s that traveled with the party but pretty sure none of them would qualify as DMPC. They all were part-time companions often cycled through for specific outings from their home city with their own motivations for that adventure. Once we got a few more players my guys faded out into role as purely non-adventuring characters.
So yeah I think they forgot the ‘excuse’ of pure number of characters. I am happy to say I stumbled into running adventuring NPC’ s and not a DMPC. Was thinking I might have to make an argument but ended up feeling vindicated doing it right. lol
I’ve done that and only had them roll a check if/when the party asks them to.
Much the same here. I had a work friend who wanted to learn the game, and my housemate wanted to try a different character than the one that they have in a game a friend is running. I created an NPC to help round out the skills (originally they played a ranger and paladin respectively. Work friend decided they wanted to play a sorceror instead, so I made the ranger an NPC. Then a nephew of one of my housemate's friend's joined the game as a rogue. So the DMNPC rogue multiclassed to cleric but when doors be doors, he can still help try to open them.
I regularly check in to make sure that the DMNPCs aren't stealing any thunder, and if they still want them around. The players also shipped them... hard. So now the 2 DMNPCs are married, one of the plots is the party escorting the cleric/rogue's distant cousin to marry his older sister (politics you know...) while they're also tracking down rumors of a twin/duplicate of the other rogue.
I'm expecting a lot of squeeing when the PCs find out they're going to be aunt and uncles in the near future.
They should've treated theses reason, not enough players at your tablet. I only had 2 too, a wizard and barbaran so I played a clérigo along with them helping
The biggest issue for me is that players WANT to bring all of the NpC characters with them on their adventure. “Oh we don’t have a healer? Let’s bring our local Druid”
How is that an issue? The DM just has the NPCs refuse to go with them.
Again, those are NPCs, not DMPCs.
I think what Bob is saying is that whether the players actually wanted to bring a character along determines whether they are a useful NPC companion or are a DMPC shoehorned in by the DM.
I have a simple fix. Sure, but they want a full share including magic items. Honestly though if the Players want to bring another NPC I'm fine with it, but they have to run the NPC. Also if they take too long deciding on that character's action I drop the NPC for the current round.
I wish my players gave a single shit about any of the NPCs i spend hours developing lol
Brennan Lee Mulligan does a pretty excellent job of a DMPC with Zelda in The Seven, she's a quiet character by nature so doesn't take charge of the plot, but her character and voice still have to be considered in the group, and there's no way to write her out and the structure of the show is always 6 players and 1 DM, so I think it was necessary and that Brennan as always nailed it
When you mentioned the healing potions it reminded me of the house rule we use. Healing potions can be taken as a free action and have their normal effect (roll for healing) but if you use a standard action the potion is maximized (no roll necessary). The idea is basically taking the potion as a shot or taking that little extra time to get every drop.
Sentient weapons are huge for giving your players insight and options. I also like giving characters "spirit guides" that they can contact for advice. An NPC that is fairly useless but still involved in the investigation or whatever is good also. That being said, i've done a DMPC when one of my players couldnt make it for a session and just took over their character and played the way I felt they would play that day.
"If you want a DNPC, just take that energy and put it in your villains." is incredibly good advice. That's what I find myself doing all the time lol I come up with a cool character idea. Guess who the party is fighting once they get to the bandit camp?
I think it goes to show that my group just gets along so well, that my DMs tend to use important NPC companions with PC stats and this has never been an issue for any of the players
One great example of a DMPC is Balnor from NADDPOD campaign 1 which came from the deck of many things very early on in the campaign. Murph always made Balnor at least one level lower than the players, while also never giving him any actually important magic items ( other than the bags of course) and on some occasions just sat around and didn't come on every adventure.
That's a good example, Balnor also came in handy for some of their tougher fights too. He played a good supporting role and came in at some very clutch moments too. Also his backstory was both hilarious and heartbreaking to discover
Excuse campaign 1 was Balnor's campaign, he was the protagonist and the band of boobs where just allowed to help him out, I don't make the rules
6:05 he is the McGuffin that the PC must protect. The true Protagonist is Samwise. With everyone else helping as necessary supporting party members and side quest adventurers.
My players thought they needed a healer and asked their employer to provide one. They gave them an Awakened Shrub that didn't share a language with anyone in the party. It led to some interesting roleplaying.
"Oh sorry you guys need a healer? Best i can do is a bareley-sentient bush" I would genuinely love to have you as a DM
@@Albatross0913 Aww, thanks. I was kind of trolling them, but I tried to do it in a way that would still be fun and get them what they wanted.
@@kyleward3914 that's so much fun, that's the kind of screwing with your players that i can get behind. it's nothing harmful, it's just genuine fun for everyone at the table.
I think it can work if you have a short-term DMPC to help in a small section of the campaign. This can be nice to do as a story reward, or if, in a long-running campaign, the PCs need an ally who has connections they don't. My PCs were investigating corruption in an isolated city. In the first half of the arc, they learned that one of the wizard politicians was good and they worked hard to earn her trust, so when it came time to take down the corrupt government, she got upgraded from helpful NPC to DMPC for a couple of sessions - she fought in the battles, solved RP encounters, contributed to planning/strategy sessions to the same degree as the other PCs.
The players knew she wouldn't be traveling with them forever (I think it was 4 sessions total), so rather than feeling this massive burden of having to share combat, RP, and plot progression with an NPC for the whole campaign, it was just a fun shake-up to the dynamic and they enjoyed that someone they worked hard to get on their team was actually helping them.
Running CoS and our DM is playing Ireena as we take her to safety. Using her as more of a lore dictionary for the other PCs. She’s not very helpful in combat, but in RP helps with the knowledge of family lines and map locations.
One cool solution with RotFM where there is a section with a wizard NPC who would join the party: We were having an evening where some people were missing, and I was concerned that I needed to have Vellyne do more than I had previously in combat. Then I remembered one of the players at the table was interested in wizards, so I asked them if they wouldn’t mind running that NPC during encounters on top of their player’s turn. Made it a lot easier on me, sped up combat, and helped the party connect a bit more with them.
My wife and I are co DM's in our game and have both played a DMPC that's worked wonderfully with our party. They loved them and we made sure that they didn't involve themselves too much unless the party addressed the directly aside from combat and party-only roleplay.
I've been running campaigns for my son in which he plays 2 characters, the 2nd one being the strong silent type, and I run a DMPC. I always let him take the lead, but we get some really fun & creative roleplay. We love it. But I agree with the D Dudes in that I wouldn't want the DM in my other group to run a DMPC and steal the show. I think the question of whether a DMPC is acceptable depends solely on the circumstances, Luke over the DM Lair made similar points in his video.
If you are a forever DM, then switch with a player.
In my group we used to rotate DMs every time we levelled up.
The DM's character would temporarily be on some errant, which exactly gained them the same xp and gold and items as the rest of the party...
It has worked for 20+ years for us.
I’ve been playing D&D since Basic. I don’t ever recall a DMPC until my 5e campaign. This was an NPC who I used to help new players acclimate to D&D as a DMPC. Thought they might be temporary. My party fell in love with them and the concept. Our 2nd campaign they made sure to ask me to have a DMPC. I’ve now had multiple campaigns where I DM’d and my players requested a DMPC. When another player DM’d they created a DMPC as well. My 5 campaigns and 3 separate tables with 2 DMs have all used DMPCs. There’s never been a whiff of a problem. Based on comments, I get this is unusual but wanted you to know “never” in your title doesn’t apply to my 7-year 5e experience. It’s been very positive DMing and playing a DMPC and playing a PC next to a DMPC of someone else’s.
I am fairly new and my party seems to enjoy the DMPC, not in small part because three 1st-level full casters with one healing spell between the three of them would have died without a healer tank that could give them darkvision. For me (and the DM before me), the choice was due to the fact that we were inexperienced and weren't able to adjust the adventure's encounters at that time (nor did we want to, that takes time and you'll end up feeling like everything's your fault).
An experienced party and an experienced DM can absolutely make do without a DMPC; new ones will struggle a lot more.
@@tibot4228 Helping a party played by new D&Ders was my original reason too, but they're all extremely experienced now and still love the DMPCs. Of course we can do without but no one seems to want to regardless of who DMs.
@@jasonmkc7797 I can relate. One of the bard's proudest moments was convincing a villain not to kill the DMPC.
30 years of DMing have taught me that there's no such thing as "never" in D&D...
We have a large party--nine of us. I wanted to learn to DM, and the experienced DM wanted to play more, so we are co-DMs for this campaign. We do the big world-building together, and then trade off planning and DM-ing every few sessions. When I DM, my PC is off at the library or on a secret mission, and when he DMs, his PC is off hunting or sleeping off too much drink. On occasion one of the other PCs will go call or get our PCs to jump in, but we keep their participation very minimal. So far it has worked well for us. Added bonus is that on occasion he's had to cover me, or he's gotten stuck at work and I've been able to cover him, so our party never has to reschedule. Also, with nine, if the party wants to split, he goes with half and I go with the other half, so no one who hates shopping has to sit and wait 😉.
Was DMing my first campaign and I only had 2 players, one was a cleric and the other was a barbarian. As part of the story, they had a hobgoblin arrested, but then realized afterwards that he was actually good and very well liked. They begged some NPCs to release him, so I built him as a character, and in the game had him released from the prison under their care. I handed the character sheet to them and let them control the character.
That’s cool!
My very first ever D&D adventuring group came equipped with a DMPC. Myself and my 4 sisters ranging from ages 12 to 8 were introduced to an old hobby of my father's in the form of 1st edition AD&D. With a party of a cleric, a thief, 2 fighters and my dads DMPC rounding out the group as Daddo the magic-user, it's still to this day almost 15 years later, the best and most fun group I've ever had the pleasure of playing with.
In our games we sometimes have a character the DM made join the party. Sometimes plot elements come through them. However, we control the character in all combat encounters and also in all normal usage expect when a particular plot issue comes up. Overall this seems to have worked for our group fairly well. Most of the time the character has a particular skill set and we will directly ask the character to translate something or information about some lore that is intended for the DM to answer.
That's not a DMPC as the players control it in combat.
Dudes didn’t bring up a mostly player-controlled NPC once as a DMPC alternative. Its good to hear options other than sentient items.
TLDR: A fourth reason one may play a DMPC is because your players ask you to.
I have DM'd with the same group over many years and through seven full campaigns. [luck, I know] In one campaign we all decided to try to use the optional rule in Chapter 9 of the DMG, "Plot Points" - in particular 'Option 3 - The Gods Must Be Crazy' where "[T]here is no permanent DM. Everyone makes a character, and one person starts as the DM and runs the game as normal. That person’s character becomes an NPC who can tag along with the group or remain on the sidelines, as the group wishes." I started as DM but also rolled up a wizard to play along when others used their Plot Points.
Only . . . no one ever did. Ever. They liked my Wizard, he was relationally tied in with other characters as we tried to do this very heavily in this campaign.
And we all loved it. I avoided the DMPC traps. My character stayed in the decision making background. I even had them killed by a Beholder's Disintegration Ray at one point when it was clear that no one would EVER take the DM chair even for a day.
The party scooped up his dust and spent the next 4-5 sessions and tens of thousands of gold to find a place to get True Resurrection cast to get their DMPC friend back.
Two campaigns later - during COVID - I start a new campaign along with another Forever DM buddy. We agree to each create a PC and rotate playing and DM Lost mines of Phandelver each week. "Hey, its only for the COVID lockdown. How long could it last?"
He lasted about 5 sessions, the campaign went LMoP --> HOTDQ --> RoT. All with me playing my little halfling rogue. All without the typical issues associated with a DMPC.
How do I know without all those issues? Because we just started Dungeons of Drakkenheim on New Year's Day after 4 months of prep. A month before we started one of my players asked me if I was playing a character. I told him of course not. Those were two odd occurrences and not my preference. He said - and I quote - "That's too bad, we all like it better when you play along with us."
I individually asked each of the three other players in that campaign. Each told me a surprised 'Yes!' that they love playing along with me and love it more when I have a character in the campaign with them.
So 'serq' the goblin paladin of the Silver Order joins the fray.
I started playing D&D in 1979. Even that far back, I remember a friend telling me, “You know how you know you’re in for a bad game? When the DM has a character in the group.”
So, it’s been a bad idea for a long time. We just didn’t have a name for it yet.
I think you guys make a really good point about DMPCs, it's difficult playing one as well because you have to remove your behind the screen knowledge and trying to make decisions based only on what the character would know and not what you want to happen next. And while not metagaming can always be a struggle for role playing I have found it particularly difficult not to make my character do things solely to further my plot because there are just some things that character wouldn't know or do. I am currently DMing for a campaign for 2 players and am playing a character myself. I decided to do this because neither of my players had ever played D&D or any table top RPG before and I wanted to give them an idea of the kinds of things they could do through example rather than just saying "you could do this, this, or this" all the time. They are still learning the ropes for a lot of the different dnd elements so I use my DMPC in a lot of ways that you all have mentioned including filling in gaps in the party since it's such a small group as their "tank". So far my players say that it has helped because there is a character for them to fall back on when they don't know how to handle a situation and don't have to metagame all time time and smoothed some of the awkwardness of role playing for the first time as well. While I know I could handle all of that with NPC(s) it's been more immersive for all 3 of us with all of us having a character and I mostly use my character to get things going in new situations (starting a conversation with NPCs, interacting with an item in a way they might not have thought of, asking questions to the characters to get them thinking about certain things). So overall it's been fun for us and I think my players appreciate having an in-game guide as well as they learn how to play and so far it's going really well.
I like the distinction between a useful or necessary NPC and a DM PC. I'm just getting started running Stars Without Number which is an OSR game and old school style games have a lot of instances where you have NPC hirelings and the sort accompanying the party. I already have a plan to get an important NPC on the ship with the PC's, so this is something I very much have in mind. Making NPC's that can accompany or help the party without them taking the spotlight from the party, or having them be a mouthpiece through which I can speak, or my players think I am speaking.
I also agree that Frodo is an NOC. He is the only member of the fellowship who has a different mission when they set off as The Fellowship. Yes in theory it’s all to destroy the ring and defeat Sauron, but there’s a big difference with Frodo. Frodo is the only one who’s mission is specifically to destroy the ring, AND his role is mostly to resist it’s evil temptation. The entire rest of the fellowship’s mission is to deliver Frodo to Mount Doom. And most of the decisive actions are not on Frodo. It’s the fellowship that provides him with the path to success. He is carried through his journey by the strength of his companions and not his own.
Frodo’s the flag, mount doom is the capture point, and the rest of the fellowship is the party. Lord of the Rings isn’t about frodo it’s about the fellowship that enables his safe(ish) passage to Mount Doom and protects Middle Earth from Mordor’s influence along the way.
My dm played a dmpc in my first ever campaign
It was just me and my mate as the two players, so there would only have been two pcs, so having the dmpc as the third was great and never sucked, he was non verbal and had an interesting enough story that we actually wanted to figure out what was up with him!
Had a DM create a paladin DMPC since we didn't have a tank in the group. Promised he wouldn't take any action without us giving the go-ahead. When we were trying to scout out a tunnel filled with spider-rats (he was a terrible DM in all other aspects as well, and every single enemy we fought was some kind of rat) he got fed up with us not charging ahead and decided to just charge ahead. Started making attack rolls but wouldn't tell us what was happening since he was around a corner. Finally we get fed up and go around to help, seeing him swarmed with enemies. However, he was so overpowered that he actually gained health (because our DM didn't understand that temp hp doesn't stack) and was boasting about how strong his character was.
Immediately our sorcerer re-rolled as a tank just to get him out of the party.
As a forever DM what I like to do is use some of my PCs I’ve made assist the party on their quests. They aren’t permanent members, just friends helping out for a mission or two.
So you shove a DMPC in every session to play as many builds as you want. That’s toxic and gross
@@bobswag710no not every session. Just occasionally. especially when I make an encounter that’s maybe a little too tough.
That's a DMPC my guy
@@TBoring ignore the trolls... the only thing that matters is if you and your players are having fun.
Tyler your game sounds Boring
So I worked with kids who were pretty new to the game and only played in small 1-3 person groups. And If I left them alone in the world they quickly found new and exciting ways to die or get locked up before doing anything actually interesting. The most successful campaigns we had were the ones where I had a DMPC playing with them, not to overshadow them in combat but to have their back, and not to give away puzzles but to make observations that might help the player make their own connection. Looking back the Key to these DMPCs that worked really well, was that they were not designed as DMPCs.
One of the first times this happened was in a Magic Academy campaign where I made an NPC who was intended to be a rival and an antagonist to the players, but one of the players despite not liking them kept interacting with them and dragging them along until they actually became friends, and I had to make a full character sheet to keep track of what this NPC that was originally just supposed to be better at magic, could actually do. The more they interacted the more fleshed out the NPC became, the more the players started relying on the NPC to do things like Intelligence checks and to cast that last-minute Feather Fall.
The same player who befriended that NPC, ignored the DMPC I had set up for them because she didn't like his personality, and when an found another NPC to drag along, that had to start leaving up to not die instantly, as again they decided they wanted someone the have their back.
DMPC, and I would say they are DMPC because they very much did feel like I was running and Charicter at my own table, are at their best when they help are focused on having the players back and giving them more options, agency, and a dynamic for them to play off.
Great points. I try to run them as NPC's and keep them pretty quiet. As you said, it doesn't really let me be a player character. Also, I'm fortunate that a couple of my players DO step in from time to time and gives me a chance to play.
I want to run a game with only DMPC's . . . perhaps a mystery with lots of puzzles I can't figure out.
wouldn't that just be you playing with yerself?
@@Salchipapa97 That's literally what he said. Not unrelated from playing Chess against yourself. It's not easy to do, but IS possible and fun! It takes real skill to be able to avoid planning ahead and only make seemingly optimal choices based on the current state of the board.
Some people who can't (or more, refuse to seriously try) think it sounds impossible and idiotic. I pity them.
In the case of D&D, you are just making a story. The difference with this scenario is that you are playing all the parts. JUST LIKE A NOVELIST. Yet everyone knows that a novelist (typically) works alone to create the whole story. Not every story has a clear plot of A to B; they evolve and change over time.
@@JarieSuicune ye
@@JarieSuicune the important difference to just thinking about a story is the impact of the dice wich make it still a game where you have to adapt to the situation.
@@Salchipapa97 Not necessarily, it's called GM-less so the whole group plays characters and have equal responsibility running the world and game, and is easily done using a Game Master Emulator, like Mythic GME (which can be used to play Solo too) it's been around for over 20 years now, and there's even a 2e version now, tho Solo has been a thing since the 80s/90s, with Gamebooks like Lone Wolf.
The difference between Soloing and writing a book is that you're still playing a game, and you don't know what the story is; the dice take over telling that part!
Here's my solution: make your DMPCs the villain(s). Have them planning and scheming and advancing their plots in the background instead of being with the party. Then the final encounter really is suspenseful for you as the DM - you really don't know what's gonna happen!
Oh man you said it at the end
As a forever dm with a small group, my 2 friends and 2 little kids. I have always run a dmpc it has never been an issue. I typically run someone who is mainly support and there as another person to talk to. I simply never solve problems and never take the spotlight. I can see how it could be abused, but I’ve never had anyone have a problem with it and it lets them have an extra healer or bardic inspiration, etc
Exactly this. We run a small group, and we have 2 DMs, me and someone else. We both run DMPCs, but their basically just NPC+. An NPC that follows the party, and lives by the rules of the PCs. For me, they almost never get full story moments the way I would give one of my players. They are in the background. They speak when spoken to, or when it makes sense. They do a lot of stuff "off screen" as to not hog the spotlight. They are not as important as the PCs, and they are a side character in the PCs story.
@@ArekesuLive ya, my friends, family, and I have used that exact method to run multiple year campaigns. I typically run most, with others taking over as a dm for a one shot or a single adventure when they want. Everyone has a great time and gets to be “there” for the story. If there is ever a moment where it makes sense for my character to be in the spotlight, which is rare, one of the others, typically my brother, takes over as dm. We have played that way whenever we can since the late 80’s. It is great fun and makes long road trips and family vacations, even more fun.
I am part of a group with my best friend of 26 years. I love him and I want him to be a PC. Ive never DMd but I have been watching and learning so many things from so many creators about how to DM.
I love the Warcraft universe and feel as a DM (and a big old warcraft lore nerd) i could easily have a campaign in that setting. I brought it up to my bud and he suggested doing a oneshot first.
It made me happy to see that tip in this video. Love you Tyler, I hope you enjoy being a PC and thank you for getting me into DnD.
“Never” is not something that should be said in a game where you are role playing. There are circumstances and reasons for anything and everything
Like not having enough players...
@@Enwickotenot the same thing. I’m talking about in-game. Not out
A really good reason I have for using one is that my GF and I are playing by ourselves - I'm the DM.
I've already had to modify combat quite a bit, but DnD solo in 5E is still essentially a suicide mission, even with massive changes to combat. But if I add a DMPC, which I honestly really only touch for combat and essentially use to keep her from dying if she massively screws up.
My DMPC:
-Standoffish, doesn't help much except for survivability.
-is essentially Erendel from LotR mixed with the protagonist in Shadow of Mordor [modified Echo Knight].
-is ONLY partnered up with her because I essentially railroaded her into a homebrew item from LotR she wanted [but is retardedly overpowered], so I gave that item a "guardian" [the dmpc] who doesn't care much about what's going on but he DOES care if that item gets misused, and he doesn't want it falling into the wrong hands either
-eventually, when she becomes powerful enough to not really need a companion, there will be a cool fight between her and the companion to kill him off [or cripple him or something that just turns him into a standard NPC]
I've added quite a lot of story tied to him that SHE has to discover - I may control him and his decisions but he generally doesn't do much at all unless SHE happens to stumble upon the story elements that involve/affect him, and they are almost completely separate from her own. And his decisions he'd make in those areas of "his" story are essentially prescripted the way a NPC would be.
Been working just fine so far. She likes the companion I made and has even asked to control him instead of me [which I've refused because I feel that'll make things too easy for her.. he's way overpowered intentionally, which is why even though he is a DMPC, I do my best to make him feel more like a NPC that follows her around everywhere.
Never and always are two of their favorite words
@@gengar618 Like when characters need a mentor or if new players need a hand to avoid early mistakes. I think a DMPC would work well as training wheels where they guide someone in a direction for a little while and eventually leave.
Dudes, I love your videos. Ended up in your channel by total chance and slowly grow fond of how you explain or bring examples or tips about everything. As a forever DM (for 10 years) that VERY recently (last year) did take a break as a DM, thank you for this video.
5:09 I am immediately reminded of the webcomic 'DM of the Rings' by Shamus Young, y'all should go read it if you haven't already!
I remember this! funny comic
I'm really happy to have come across this video. After not having played DnD in over 10 years my wife and oldest daughter (8) have expressed interest in playing.
They have chosen their characters, a Wood Elf Ranger with a bow and a High Elf Rogue with a bow to start the Lost Mine of Phandelver module and want me to make a character to play with them while I DM.
I'm really struggling to figure out how to run the character and keep the story about them.
Now I want to create a DMPC that checks a few of the "bad DMPC" boxes only to have them get obliterated by the BBEG as a sort of power check for the group.
I wanna start a campaign like this. The party works for (and is obviously subordinate to) the “chosen one” DMPC (who is 4 or 5 levels above them), but by the end of session 2 or so the BBEG has killed the chosen one and now the party has to figure out what comes next.
Every argument against a DMPC has a flaw, the assumption that the DM will run it a specific way.
Here are rules for how to run a DMPC.
-Certain classes are off limits, like the warlock and cleric. Classes that require active interaction with the DM, as with a patron or deity, are better for PCs. Avoid situations where you have to role play talking to yourself.
-Do not help in any puzzles or social encounters. The DMPC is the silent type that steps back and watches, voicing up only when their words mean something.
-Combat can always use another member. Most can absolutely be NPCs but those are made to squish easily to not outshine the PCs. So the DMPC must be the same way. They can help absorb some hits you know might be a fatal blow to a pc, but also just as fatal to the DMPC. Spell casters can’t have stronger damage dealing than the PCs, fo support fire and a spare the dying helps, but not integral to the party’s survival.
-Loot will always go to PCs. Magic and items are for them, but currency can be split equally on occasion.
-Think about playing something with severe flaws, like a DMPC with a Mindflayer tadpole, a slad tadpole, or find monster classes that make them unique but provide limitations, weaknesses, and varying difficulties that the PCs don’t have to add a little conflict in otherwise mundane actions.
My DMPC is poor and only magic item she possesses is gauntlets of ogre power becomes everyone else was too strong to benefit from it. They gave it to my DMPC. She also doesn’t have any weapons and is leveling up as a full fledge vampire from Monster Classes pdf. She can’t enter an inn or tavern or any living area without permission and has all vampire weaknesses. She’s combat support so if a really strong hit comes their way, she could be the target. She can’t heal other than through feeding and stays silent in social interactions to avoid anyone finding out her undead nature. I love the surprise and the challenges the PCs create on their own and I can enjoy the unknown just as well as them, only offering my thought on a solution if one is a struggle to find.
Recently they fought my homebrew will o’ wisp that animates corpses in its presence, using them as puppets that form one mass after they’re cut to pieces. My DMPC voiced that something must be controlling them, as no one attacked the will o’ wisp yet.
Lastly, if she dies then my next DMPC will be using the sidekick rules to make it easier on myself on leveling up and to keep the abilities mundane. So far, my party always takes the light and almost always gets the final blow. Even if I have to miss on purpose.
You can absolutely have fun and experience the surprises and solutions through the players while enjoying surprises of my own. My DMPC was a warlock half-vampire to start two years ago. She was killed by a fireball from a pc by accident. This gave me the opportunity to drop warlock and go full vampire after they buried her that gives my players the option of being vampires too, if their PCs lives are cut short too soon for them. By the way, the barbarian has an undead killing greatax for insurance if her bloodlust gets out of control.
the title doesn’t really help my confidence lol. But in my games i always have a npc for rp and to help in battle since my battles are quite brutal. But I build them in a way where the party can’t use them to bypass their problems
That seems a bit circuitous - you're the one designing the encounters, so you could also tune them for just the PCs. Why overtune them, and then add an NPC to compensate?
I'm calling shenanigans. An effective DMPC is the easiest thing to pull off. You just have to follow one rule:
Drive the wagon.
A Dwarven Alchemist with the Chef feat, Brewers Kit and Land Vehicles is always useful when they tend the wagon. They love the wagon, and it always survives for the party to return to.
But if the party decides the Wagoneer should join in the dungeon? It's their own fault they invited an alcoholic pyromaniac along with them.
I hate when people use Matt Mercer as an example but this is one of the few times it actually DOES work:
Mercer made "Gilmore". He was a Wizard character that was an owner of a Magical Goods chain that was successful. He talked with the party once in awhile and went on a quick adventure with them, they were thrilled.......
.....he nearly died. Scared everyone so bad they didn't want him with them. He agreed as it worried him how he got his ass throughly kicked. 😆
I think 3HP away? This is a fantastic example. While yes, he helped them when they needed a bit extra firepower, they also nearly lost someone they really liked; it added tension and fear. This is a VERY rare time it paid off
DMPC can be done tastefully. As long as you don’t hog the spotlight in combat or especially in RP
Im currently running a campaign wearing Im playing with a DMPC, however Im doing it at my party's request. I voiced my concerns of past horror stories Ive heard and the last thing I wanted to do was to take away my party's agency. Despite saying that my group still requested I play a character alongside theirs. As a rule I dont award myself magic items and I dont help with puzzles, usually themed as my character keeping watch for enemies while the party solves the puzzle. I run my games in 'chapters' where each chapter has a different player as a focus, giving that character a chance to shine and focusing on their story. The agreement I came to with my group is I refuse to DM my 'chapter' for my character, someone else has to DM it. So if someone else wants to give me a magic item or surprise me with plot elements/story then they are welcome to do so during that time. I dont know if that would work for everyone, but its been working for my group and its been enjoyable.
You are well reasoned and thoughtful in your analysis.
The druid changes make me sad. You are 100% accurate that it takes the creativity out of the class.
For me ... I love being in both roles.
As a player: I love seeing the story unfold, not knowing what's about to happen and being surprised by the stuff the DM has up it's sleeve. The beloved npc death to give us as a party the motivation to fight, the plottwists, the interaction with my party members and let the characters grow together. You know the deal.
As a dm: I love seeing how my story unfolds, the reaction to plot twists. Creating the long term villains who has the party as a big fucking thorn in the side and always comes up with new crazy plans who won't work ... listening to the party while they talk about the story in character for 15 minutes straight, trying to connect the dots and figure out what is actually going on.
As you guys pointed out it's the mix of both which makes P&P fun in general and while I can play in four different campaigns at the same time without getting tired of it, DM'ing more than one group in my opinion is an absolute pain for me. So yeah, every DM needs a break from time to time, I guess
As a general rule I believe your points are valid. Maybe 10 years ago I did play an exception that I think worked though: At that time my recurring gaming group, that I have been playing with for more than 20 years now, was playing a D&D 3.5 campaign and we had two GM's who had a player character each - I was one of the GM's. In order for that to work we divided the tasks so that my friend, who had GM'ed the campaign before back in 2nd edition, would be GM''ing the official modules for the campaign (I think it was 4 main adventures with different level requirements in the Mystara setting). Since the world was well described by TSR it gave me room to design adventures in between the main adventures without knowing anything about the main plot where the players would interact with relevant factions and general events in the Mystara history setting. I was playing a bard and he was a cleric and it actually worked pretty well in the sense that none of us got fed up being a GM even though the campaign took like 3 or 4 years to complete.
I appreciate that you guys gave this advice without the severe condescencion that most of the DM advice channels give. You actually delivered your advice with honesty but understanding towards how these things happen. You also ended with the most important advice which is that if your table is okay with everything and having fun, it's okay but just be careful with how you use them. The most important things are simply that the DM PC's should never push the player characters aside and out of the spotlight.
Most of the horror stories of DM PCs that I have heard involve the players getting 0 focus, or just beinf the supporting cast to this character, which is the DM abusing their control over events and trying to hog both sides of the court. However, your listed reasons for how this always happens were on point and good faith, especially the final one.
Most DMPCs, versus just an NPC Companion, occur because the DM is stuck in the forever DM role and the players are being thoughtless and, let's be honest, selfish. A lot, hell possibly most, players are selfish, and sometimes they need to be reminded that The GM job is hard. Not everyone is a Matt Mercer who is genuinely just stoked to help others have fun (and is also, you know, getting paid for it). Most of us are hobbiest and have had shitty experiences as players and have been trying to correct what we felt were wrongs done to us. We wanted to show the DM that wronged us that there are other ways.
I think a cool way to have interesting NPCs bolster the party's abilities (maybe if they're new players or they have not very optimized characters) is to allow the players to have retainers.
These are like servants/bodyguards to royalty/nobility but can often become close friends of the noble they serve.
The important thing here is they will be controlled mechanically by the players as they follow orders, but they can be rp'd by the DM.
I had a year+ long campaign based on the Tomb of Annihilation 5E setting. The absolute best part of the game was the exploration of the jungle, finding all sorts of crazy tribes, encountering dangerous temples, finding amazing ruins (which I had great fun creating). They had picked a guide in town (after having a rollicking time there) and she was secretly a were-tiger who had to transform into a tiger every couple of nights to hunt and to relieve the pressure of maintaining a human form. She would inexplicably disappear for a period leaving the PCs to their own devices, but then show up and get them "back on track." She was trying to guide them to a specific spot in the jungle and get them to fight a bunch of bad guys so she could get an amulet that would help her control her shapeshifting. They kind of liked her, but during the periods she was gone, they discussed what the heck was up with her. It was a great arc for them trying to figure out her motives. Eventually, they just confronted her and she came clean and they all said "well, shoot, we would have helped you, why didn't you ask?" Her answer was "You could have said no." Anyway, they went on much more amiably, went to the place, beat the baddies and got her mcguffin. Everyone was happy, and they celebrated, then she disappeared into the jungle that night. Man, they were pissed. After being hopelessly lost for a while, they found a wounded Tabaxi (Sits-On-Hands) and he became a better, however more timid, guide after that.
One thing I'd also add about the healer part - Censor of Devotion dudes. The Cleric or Paladin pops it off once a day and 20-ish hit points come back for whoever breathes it. Great for a short rest substitute, even more fun in combat (they need to keep the enemies out and the players in the sphere as they try to fight).
It's transformed my sessions completely. The Pally has lay on hands but is reluctant to use it too much on anyone but himself (unless they drop to zero). The Cleric has healing spells but understadably wants to use those to do badass spells. Now he can do both without over-extending his spell slots and make for an occasional epic combat encounter. Love it.
I introduced a bard NPC who was related to one of my party members and they loved him so much they asked him to join them for a mission. I was very aware of the dreaded DMPC so set some rules in my mind and shared these with the players. 1. The DMPC had no arc of his own and wasn't directly motivated to save the world in the same way as the party. 2. He'd act in combat on the orders of the group's leader. 3. He'd take a backseat in all RP unless directly involved by a PC. 4. He is a support caster with virtually no damage spells so he isn't going to be stealing kills or taking the BBEG down. I've been very careful with him and had the story remove him after the mission. They have roleplayed wanting to ask him back and a time is coming up when he will be with them.
monty talking about what being a DM is like hit me super heavy. like...is this how god feels? i love DMing and am far from burnt out, but man, i felt that rant on an existential level.
I run the occasional DM PC in my group, and my players have loved them. I do follow some rules though:
1st) Make them lovable. I've been playing with my group for 5 years now, and I've developed a sense of who they enjoy. Either a reluctant grump with a heart of gold, a chaotic idiot (Droop comes to mind), or someone who is cute, bubby, and innocent will get my party hooked every time.
2) They are here for a good time, not a long time. They stick around for a single arc at most.
3) They are built from the ground up to SUPPORT the party. Not just heal or tank, but buff the party and allow the party to be even MORE heroic. And I always have them be a level or two below the party so they never outshine the party.
The party are the heroes. DM PCs should serve to help shine even more spotlight on them, not steal it for themselves.
I made a dmpc once in a homebrew campaign of mine, all the players were new at the game and didnt know how to act, so i made him to kinda break the ice. He would die later in the campaign for plot things, but i think i took away theyre chance to shine with this character, felt bad for it but never asked the players about it.
He was a chaotic Halfling pirate swords bard swashbuckler rogue
I'm going to be DMing my very first campaign soon and I just wanted to say thanks for all your videos - they're so helpful and the way they're delivered and topics explained make them so easy to follow :)
I offer DMPCs as henchmen in my games. I classify them as DMPCs because they are created as pre-generated characters for new players who don't know what to roll, or maybe I'll get to play them in a game hosted by a different DM. They have as much personality as the other players, demand a share of the loot, and maybe have their own goals where they befriend or betray the party down the line. What is important here is that they never put the players in their shadow. This works for my games due to a low player count, anywhere between 1 and 4 players.
On the other side of the screen, I've had a DM swoop their DMPC in to save us in combat, or hire us for quests that were obviously beyond our capabilities, only to watch them do most of the heavy lifting. I know the DM wanted to show off a character they were proud of, but it wasn't very fun for me.
I love the idea of a caravan following players along their adventures, offering services and breathing more life into the party.
As a "Forever DM" I indulge in playing the NPCs and I explore the characters that know the world. I have an understanding of game design and player psychology, so I'm familiar with the concepts you bring up in that section of the video, and I've found that shifting in mindset is necessary if you want to have fun. Of course, if you want to have the player experience then you can try to find a game for that purely, but for me, it's about the NPCs.
I know all of the answers, and I know where each of the NPCs are on their journey, and I get their character development stuff taken care of. For me, games are all about narrative, where the system used is the bone means to an end, and most of the players I get are focused on character growth over mechanical growth as well so I really build that into my D&D game. Even if we never talk about it in the context of a session, each npc actually has a deeply crafted backstory, even if in my mind, that influences their actions. As a DMPC, you cannot truly give yourself a meaningful choice because you are both the system and a PC, but you can give your NPCs meaningful choices against the party.
I don't mean that everything has to be combative, do we fight or talk it out thing, but as an example, in a recent game I ran this last week, our players found the daughter of a famous Wyvern Rider bandit left to hang out on a cliff and saved her. She convinced the party, who had fought these bandits a few days prior, to go to the hideout, where she thinks she could take over and make things better for the bandits. Within the context of entering the cave hideout, there was a guard named Smol Nucklo (As opposed to his brother Big), and from a design perspective, he was a "Condition checkpoint" for the PCs. If she approaches alone, he attempts to capture her. If she has a singular character companion, then it depends on which character but there will be dice rolls associated, perhaps some bribing. If she brought the posse in, then he is immediately your man.
All of those designs, of course, had their own game design functions to be sure, but all of them were based on that character's perception of the world and how the situation looked. In this instance, the players sent in the unassuming white-haired, pale-skinned celestial warlock female aasimar. Humanlike females were a big point of attention for this character, and in character history, he had always proposed to this daughter and she had always rejected him as a creep, which he was, as he felt comfortably superior to the two women. He demanded to be paid for putting his life on the line and the daughter offered him her hand, and then the PC didn't like that so she offered gold, and he said that 175 gold would be more than the value of being married to her. Haggling happened and the PC got the price to 150gp, backed out to get the gold, bought passage, and brought the party of 7 in, which is including the warlock.
The Coup went well, one lesser bandit was killed, and the rest bent the knee to the party in favor of enacting that coup. While I won't be able to explore the reality of how this bandit guard in question will develop or not from there in a real game sense, I still get to indulge in the fun of having a character out in the world that will be living his own life because, even within the context of the dungeon itself, one of the days he had in that realm was completely out of my control as he met the wild variables, the PCs, that could have to lead the NPC to, or altered, their fate. Because on that day, on that particular session, it's the party who decides how this NPC lives or dies, even if the NPC dies fighting with the PCS against other NPCs.
Also doesn't hurt that I actually drop builds into the main campaign against the players in singular or minor ways.
My first time playing the game we didn't have a healer back in 4e. The DM made a DMPC cleric but he had sworn an oath of silence. That way he couldn't influence the party and our decisions. It worked out well for what we needed which was just the mechanical help in combat but didn't hamper our choices.
My setting is a slow progression from children to adventurers. Their village has many npcs who support them. The npcs have went with them to teach them, this has been very useful for a brand new player who isn't sure what he can do, his mentor can keep him safe and offer feed back. Once they are accustomed to the more hardcore rules they'll leave the starting town and have the caravan as you said but no support in combat
So glad I found this video, I am currently running a game and my players have managed to capture and convince a goblin to help them into a goblin camp and I some how made this character where they love him. They want him every where, trying to gear the little guy out, nicknamed him pillow… I’m not sure what to do with this as of right now he is helping out. My players are very new and struggle a little bit so I’ve been allowing him to help out but it’s a bit of a strain to keep track of another stat sheet
I’m currently in a 2 person party (my sister and I lol) and we are both spellcasters. We kinda came up with a dragon-age-esq companion system where we made friends (of varied classes) and pick ones to tag along for different quests. So far it’s been really interesting, but no one becomes too DMPC.
You bring up some excellent points, but I like 90% disagree with part 3, specifically that the DM cannot be surprised by plot twists, that they don't get to make important decisions with consequences, or don't get challenged in combat. The DM is controlling all the enemies in combat -- that can be challenging to get right! You have a different goal than your players do in combat, i.e. to give them reasonable obstacles, but it's no less challenging. You can even give your enemy NPCs different goals, like maybe they start to run away, or they try to call for backup after a while, or they can try to destroy the special magic item that's there as loot etc. You can mix it up to make it challenging for you and the players in a way that doesn't necessarily result in TPKs. And if your party is really extreme, they may even want you to try and kill them or they won't be having fun (not for every party, admittedly).
Also DMs do make important decisions -- for all the NPCs in the *entire world*, and if you want it to be something you/the players have to react to later, then have those NPCs be making decisions and doing stuff while the party is off adventuring. Then when the party gets back events have been moving along without them, and the world will feel more dynamic. They come back and react, then you (as the world/NPCs) will be reacting to the players, and then they will be reacting to you, repeat ad infinitum.
And as a DM I am continually surprised by the strange new things my players think up to address situations they find, and this will absolutely twist the plot in strange new ways -- and then you'll have to react to those changes by, again, making important decisions. They might have lost the battle, or let someone important get kidnapped, and now you have to figure out how the world/NPCs/BBEG responds. This could drastically change the course of your world's history in a way you hadn't planned on. You can choose to let it morph with your players' actions instead of leaving it as a set-piece.
As a last option, if you really really want to be surprised in a game that you're running ... have you considered trying any of the solo-play DND rules and incorporating those into your game as the DM? There are some 3rd party rules for solo play, and there are also lots of ideas you can borrow from other ttrpgs and import them into D&D (which I'm pretty sure is how the 3rd party solo rules came to be in D&D in the first place). Then you'll be using dice (usually called Oracles) to determine the world/NPCs' actions, and interpreting how that interconnects with other events in the world. So you'll still have to do worldbuilding and roleplay work with your NPCs, but the dice/Oracles are continually throwing curveballs at you that you have to respond to.
I still agree with your overall point that you probably shouldn't have a DMPC in your own game ... but that could totally be a viable option if you're going really hard into the solo-play rules. You could even let your players controlling the enemies in combat that are closest to your PC or similar if you'd like to try that. Anyway, my point is that there are options! Forever DMs (like me), don't give up!
I have a story of a DMPC that I think was working out okay. It was my first campaign as DM, and the players were two of my close friends. They were kind of experienced with Dungeon World but had never played 5E. I was running Dragon of Icespire Peak, and they had a few close calls during their first few missions. They were feeling weak. They didn't realize that they were not only growing in strength quickly, but also I was adjusting the challenges for them to the best of my abilities. They spent a ton of time looking for other warriors to join their party, and I finally relented. I had a fighter join with them to help them in battles, and that helped relieve their stress. So, he did fight and had his own personality, but I didn't use him to solve problems or develop plans. That was on the players. I would have just let them control multiple characters in battle, but they were having a hard enough time keeping up with the ones they had. With the help of my character, they got more confident, and the story progressed much more quickly. They also seemed to like the character, so I guess I was lucky!
I have a perfect example of a semi forced DMPC that my players put onto me.
So they knew this half giant, warforged whom was bodyguard of the empress. Gave quests, summomed them, ect. Run ahead they get into a previuosly ongoing fight where there is a staged coup. This NPC has 2 turns before she is incapped being grievously wounded due to soloing prior to them joining (this is a great way to introduce/use powerful NPCs without having them steamroll).
Fast forwards again and she is to guide them very quickly to a temple. No fights, quick trip I think. Player uses desk of many out of randomness and teleport them all across the world. She ended up being a scout that went ahead and they follow her tracks, worried about the bad signs left behind. They end up setting up a rescue for her. Again, another great way to skip past having powerful NPCs always in the party.
There was a massive dungeon crawl down the line in which they wanted her to join. I simplified her stats citing she was consistently wounded from the last few hardships and gave my party control of her for this one crawl. With a few other mercs they hired, it was a cool one off where they played almost like a dynasty warriors dungeon crawl tailored to the added backup.
I had one very good experience with DMPCs in a game. In college I played with three other guys and we all liked to DM. We decided that we wanted to play a longer campaign but couldn’t decide who would DM. Our solution was for us all to make PCs and then take turns DMing 2-4 month arcs. (We were playing planescape so as DMs we had the freedom to just take on a new plane as our world for that arc.) While we were DMing we would keep our PC around for continuity, but they took a back seat, becoming pseudoNPCs (for all the reasons you correctly state in your video). Still, they got experience and treasure so they wouldn’t fall behind. It was a great success, and one of the most unique and memorable campaigns I’ve ever played in.
We have a dmpc that was a goblin we had watch the horses and take up a spear to defend. Now he’s become a devout follower of our clerics deity and has become a half paladin. We also toss him some better weapons and he’s grown attached to our war horse. Doesn’t offer advice but battles like the rest of us and can occasionally heal when needed. Great addition and in a one off we are currently doing he is our healer while the cleric is dm’ing. Which our DM was super stoked about.
im a new dm, and (though it hasn't happened yet) one of best things about dming is seeing the reactions of players when they solve the mystery or find out the plot twist.
I'm so glad Monty mentioned putting all the DMPC effort into your villain because thats precisely what I've chosen to do in the past. I ran a short campaign where a rival party of adventurers acted as the villains, and in the campaign I'm currently running any one of my players could've literally created a carbon copy of my BBEG if they happened to pick the right race and multiclass combinations
New dm here. I have a dmpc in a LMOP, or at least I thought I did. I made a healer to join the campaign since my all brand new player group chose other things and I just want them to have fun with their very first character ideas. After watching so many dnd how to and don't videos, I did a lot to hold him back to make sure he never outshines my players, doesn't become their compass, isn't a convenient info dump and then I realized than my dmpc is actually just an npc that only fights and heals alongside the group in a support role. They kept Droop which gives them a second frontliner, so I now I think I'll drop him back and let them discover some healing potions to take with them. Thanks for helping me avoid major pitfalls as a new dm.
I love playing a DMPC, largely because when I first started playing Traveller, and D&D 1st ed, I often only had two players and needed to round out the party. One of my best moments as with a DMPC, was when he sacrificed his life, so that the other players could survive.
It was an epic, emotional moment for the players and myself.
The key to most DMPCs is to leave them in the background, play them as introverts, and use them to assist the player's goals and plans, and not to have them in the limelight.
If you are a good roleplayer, then a DMPC can actively contribute to the player's fun, especially, if they are a bit unusual. Once, I generated an intelligent Australian King Parrot (I love them!), that could talk to the players, and was unbeknownst to the players a Dragonfire Adept. The players in this game were a friend and his children, aged about 12-16 at the time. If I was a completely unoptimised and terrible DFA, but it was enough for what I wanted it to do.
The kids loved the parrot! Even more so, when it happened to save the party (mostly on account of the kid's lack of familiarity with roleplaying), revealing itself as more than an intelligent bird, for the first time. It was a wonderful moment for them, that truly bought home the incredibly captivating world of D&D, and some of the ways that it can provide moments of awe.
So, yes, used properly, the DMPC can be a great addition to a party.
On the other hand, I've found that DMPCs are often a warning sign of a bad DM. Over COVID, I had the misfortune of playing in an online game with a DMPC. This was D&D 5e, and I came in at third level paladin, while the DMPC was a 6th level necromancer, with an army of skeletons. That game went about as well, as you might expect. The DMPC was the only evil character in the party, and I didn't know about it until I'd started playing.
Basically, the evil DMPC, was the Mary Sue of the (IMHO psychologically disturbed) DM, who enjoyed screwing the players over, and I very quickly left the game, and it collapsed the next session, when all the other players decided that enough was enough.
I've seen DMPCs ruin games in all the ways described in this video, and more, but seem to be one of the few people who've cracked the code on this.