265. Saudi Arabia: The Mystery of the Kaaba
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- Опубліковано 10 лют 2025
- Join Tom and Dominic for their World Cup episode on Saudi Arabia, where they discuss 'the most famous structure in global Islam' - the Kaaba in Mecca.
Tune in to hear about the Prophet Mohammed, Abdul Malik, and the origins of the most sacred site in Islam.
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-The stone is an iron meteorite. Iron meteorites are relatively pure in iron, which you will never find in a rock from Earth, and as such have always brought people to explain them with whatever story they can summon. Small item meteorites tended to get melted down and turned into ceremonial axe heads or daggers, but larger meteorites were too heavy to move. Hoba, Namibia hosts a nice one.
How do we know this? Can't imagine they allowed testing on it?
@@jonnylumberjack6223 -That's a very good question. On the side of the Kaaba is a hole into which you can reach and touch the meteorite. Some kiss it. The building that surrounds it has been rebuilt a few times, always funded by whoever wanted to be regarded as pious and powerful (thus the Saud family now). That's when the meteorite is exposed, and there are records of it current state.
@@Nosmaclear it must be a "lump" then, not something that could be used as building material? I guess, because of the story, I was imagining a large, brick shaped item. Unless it's been worn smooth by millions of hands over the years?
@@jonnylumberjack6223 -Yeah. It's just iron, and almost certainly a little nickle. About 6% of meteorites are like that.
@@jonnylumberjack6223 -Yes, it almost certainly is. Because of it's association with a highly popular religion, it is not open to scientific study. But we've no reason to assume it's any different from other examples, particularly when we CAN see and touch part of it. Other great examples of large iron meteorites you can see are in Hoba, Namibia; the Cape York in the AMNH in Upper West Side Manhattan; part of the Aletai in Urumqi, Xinjiang, China; and part of the Campo del Cielo in NHM of London (my planetarium had a small sample from this, but someone stole it).
Greatest podcast I've added to my feed in many years. Also learned a ton thru this world cup series
Listening from Saudi Arabia, what an amazing episode.
But I have a note regarding suggesting that Kaaba maybe was built at the end of the 7th century, from a historical point of view, I think it is diffucilt to deny the existence of Kaaba before Islam let alone the existence of Kaaba during the birth of Islam in the beginnings of the 7th century. If you read the history of Quraysh tribe which is the main tribe in Mecca and the tribe that Muhammad belongs to, you cannot really understand how this tribe became prominant without suggesting that maybe they had something that poeple came to visit which I believe is the Kaaba, every major dynasty came from this tribe (the Umayyads, the Abbasids...etc). the whole hisotry of Mecca as a city and the tribes of Mecca could not be understood without thinking that maybe there was something in Mecca that brought people to it and made it and its people the richest and most prominant in Arabia. However, of course from a historical point of view, no one can say that Adam or Ibrahim are the ones who have built Kaaba because there is nothing that indicate this, let alone indicate the presence of those figures. But I believe Kaaba was there before the 7th century, and maybe you could aruge that there were different Kabbas in Arabia including the one in Mecca, and actually even in Islamic litrature, it's said that when the Kingdom of Aksum (the famous Ethiopian kingdom) conquered Yemen, the African King of this empire did not like that the tribes of Yemen go north to Mecca to visit the Kaaba, so he decided to build his own Kaaba in Yemen. However, accoding to Islamic litrature, his Kaaba did not attract people so he became angry and decided to invade Mecca to dystroyed the Kaaba, however his invasion has failed because god have sent birds to attack the invading army by throwing stones at it until the army retreated. So from this story, we can understand that the early muslims were not oppose to the idea that other Kaabas could have been there in Arabia. However, it's clear that all of them were forgotten and none became more important than the Kaaba in Mecca, and this may suggest that theory of many Kaabas could have been acceptable but the theory that there was no Kaaba until the late 7th century is somehting that I think is really diffuclt to say.
there is no way to tell if mohammad actually existed. since there are no ancient books from arabia that show us. nor are there any persian or roman manuscripts that mention muhammad. ----- muhammad could easily have been made up by an arab ruler looking to expand their domain into an empire. and with the resources at his didposal, he could create the myth of muhammad and spread it far and wide, print it, hire "priests" mullahs, abd kill all the handful of people who called the bluff, and lo, 1300 years later, billions of people accept it as fact.
I greatly enjoyed this. Especially the objective second half.
Wow , as an Arab I've learned new information I didn't know before !!! I'd like to help and translate this episode to Arabic please let me know if you're interested .
You looking for trouble?
Same! I'm Iranian and Holland's had me fascinated with a secular, objective look at the early history of Islam. Looking for book recommendations so lmk if you come across a good one!
@tonyholmes962 there are millions of atheists in the Middle East you little fool.
@@beback_ I love meeting people from Iran. You are well represented in Texas, engineers and physicians. A special treat is when I attend a dinner party where a doctor from Iran meets a doctor from India. I love to sit in the background and listen to their debate which nation started the first cities, the first written language etc. Well educated in deep history. I find it fascinating. In Texas we revere historical sites that are 200 years old hahaha.
@beback_ I don't know I'd he wrote a book but dan Gibson seems to know a lot on early islam.
Wow..the most incredible and fantastic piece of pre-science fiction since Joseph Smith. Great job.
Ummm, these stories are significantly older than those Joseph Smith constructed! I think he definitely took some pointers from these guys though, no doubt.
@@jonnylumberjack6223 I wonder if that commenter would show the same disrespect to other religions, or is it just relegated to Abrahamic ones?
@@notsocrates9529 a) I don't consider Joseph Smith's religion to be truly Abrahamic, although it claims to be Jesus-y, they get waaay more wackadoodle than anything written in the bronze or iron ages. And b) I'm all for equal opportunity disrespect to any and all religions. All just stories made up by humans.
@@jonnylumberjack6223 Cool, go criticize the Hadiths or Talmudic exegeses. I am sick of the constant Jesus bashing from enlightened centrist midwit types.
Crisp and concise information. Bravo..
How can with modern science anyone believe these legends. Thanks mate.
I am not m*slim, but get over yourself mate.
Very interesting.
early mosques were aligned with petra..i have read that the venetians had ability to carry out precious metal trade with india via egypt between 700 and 900ad.perhaps they went to sudan then turned left to the red sea opposite mecca...perhaps mecca was held by arabs to block europeans travelling this way
No one was travelling through Mecca, there was no water there.
@@denisepeters9883 Sit down, imbecile.
@@denisepeters9883they were, mecca exists because of the zamzam spring, it attracted settlers and travellers and was an important stop on the route from yemen to rome, which was a very important trade route as it brought frankincense from yemen to rome where they were crucial for temples.
Phoenicians not Venetians -that lot came thousands of years later!
@@denisepeters9883 the trade route went by Sabia,a small state north of yemen ..i just left a long answer but it has vanished
There's a lot of mix of facts and interesting, and strange interpretations.
Brad pit yelling "WHATS IN THE BOXXX"
"ever inhabited house" seems like a fitting paradise for nomadic tent dwellers?
I watched a documentary on YT recently, where they were positing that Mecca is all wrong. Apparently the oldest few (sorry, I can't remember exactly how many, 3 or 4 maybe) Mosques are not built facing where Mecca is now, but towards Petra. Indicating that maybe Petra, or one of the structures within Petra was "the house".
Bruv they were built towards jerusalem not petra tf r u on about
@petferret6979 Are you sure? Because according to the doc, it was Petra. I'm not saying the doc was 100% accurate but they had a Muslim scholar with them who was saying that he was confused because that was not what he was taught, and yet the evidence said otherwise. I don't know enough about it but it's a definite possibility. Just because tradition says something doesn't make it fact.
eusebius says something about the queen of saba (near yemen) going to tyre to find a sacred stone.perhaps they lost the stone after a conflict..the other side of the kabaa is called the yemeni corner
Oh dear..lots of shall we say interesting people answering 😅
Artemis who fell from heaven.
The innate ability of us humans, of whatever persuasion, to believe nonsense is off the scale. Plato has much to answer for.
I was told by two colleagues who are Muslim that the sacred cube in Mecca has been sculpted from a large piece of asteroid rock, which fell from the sky about 2000 years ago.
There were at least 4 "kaabas" in the pre Islamic Arab world?
CIRA channel for more...
It is time to come clean Tom. You never metaphysic you didn't like :).
If Abdul Malik built the Dome of the Rock decades after Mohamed’s death, then that casts serious doubt on the Muslim tradition of the Mirage. Mohamed was supposed to have tied his NASA horse at the Dome.
Get educated. The Mosque and the Dome of the Rock were built 2000 bc and that's 4000 years ago. What an Islamophobe.
Nope not the same building
Not really. There was likely another building/structure there at the time of the Prophet's death, which Abdul Malik later replaced with the Dome of the Rock. After all, Jerusalem's been a busy place for millenia
I'm agnostic, but even from a secular view, its not hard to see how Jerusalem became the site where many Prophets or Holy Men chose to stay & preach till their deaths. Its on the Levant in the Eastern Mediterranean, its a bridge where Africa meets Asia, its a buzzing hive of activity situated above the Arabian Peninsula.
According to Jewish tradition, this is where Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac before hearing the voice of God. For the Jews, this is where their Kings established the foundation of the Jewish state & their identity. For Christians, its where Jesus, also a Jew, stayed to preach & be crucified. For Muslims, its where Muhammad spent his last days on earth.
The tradition of the Miraj is no different from the Christian belief that Jesus ascended to heaven. Some of the faithful (whether for Jesus or Muhammad) believe they literally ascended to the sky, while others believe it was metaphorical. Like their souls/spirits did.
I do Biochem research & even scientists & engineers can be religious.
Hey diddle diddle,
The Cat and the Fiddle,
The Cow jump'd over the Moon,
The little dog laugh'd to see such Craft,
And the Fork ran away with the Spoon.
@@thisasiankidistrashfordram374 Aye, I suppose we are all entitled to our fantasies, even Biochem scientists. carry on then!
Could Bacca be a god or a tribe and not a place-name?
Bit too much knob gobling going on here to make sure you don’t offend any Muslim people. Bad form.
Exactly .
walking on egg shells........... as they say in europe
walking on camel urine......... as we say here in arabia
Kaaba is not what Muslims are praying to, it's merely a direction of prayer, there's a difference.
Please at least try to understand the basic concept of an issue before attempting to discuss it in a serious podcast.
You've just reinforced a ignorant understanding. That's just wrong.
@Chunkieta by your logic life itself is BS, what's the point of anything, what are you doing here, go do something useful with your life.
Woooooooooooooooo nippy sweetie 🤡
@@youknow6968 For sure you & the religious tyrants certainly don't have any answers & don't kid yourself otherwise.
@@KeithWilliamMacHendry what the heck are you talking about? Sweetie, or didn't you take your medicine today.
It's OK I'll be home later to treat you really well, so don't confuse your pretty head with things you don't understand. 😘
Oh fgs, everyone knows y'all are praying to god, not to a building. It's a turn of phrase, stop getting your panties in a bunch. So sensitive.
Tom holland is the biggest liar.
Muhammad was a schizophrenic warlord.
Huh??
Only in the mindset of fools, fantasists & most of all, hateful religious bigots that are conditioned by a cult religion & all its falsity.
How?
How so? He is not a liar only because you say so. It is not only Tom Holland. Scores of top historians and scholars have already proven that Islam is a historical fraud.
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