One tiny note: Put a "don't ask again" option when it asks if you need a hint or put that in the settings, it can feel like the game is mocking you a bit when these kinds of pop ups show and you're just a bit slower to pick things up
yeah that could get annoying really quick if you're the type who likes to figure things out totally on your own even if it's taking a while. The hints are essential for keeping away frustration for a lot of players but a setting to toggle those would prevent frustration for the other type who really enjoy picking it up for themselves no matter the loss in flow.
You're reminding me of my least favorite choice made in the new God of War games where even if you flip the setting for puzzle hint wait time to the max, eventually some annoying kid is going to tell you how to solve the puzzle you started before you went pee and now the game is treating you like a dumb child.
@@BigDaddyWes I've been playing shadow of the collosus recently for the first time and the ominous voice telling me what i should do several times while i know it and im just fighting the clunky controls is extremely annyoing ngl
@@happyfullfridge This is essential for me. I hate hints popping up like that because the game makes me feel like I am taking too long, like I am failing the puzzle. Usually I am in a flow state of some kind, working out the puzzle in my head, and then seeing that just deflates the whole process.
In one of the demos, I would sometimes stop playing the level and go ham on the scissor gates. Even without sound, it still felt like it had weight to it, and was so satisfy to slap that thing open/closed.
So in that case i'll take my scope, think even deeper for longer and make it even bigger so by the time i've halved it twice, it will be the same as before!
You guys joke but it is true that the only reason Hollow Knight came out was because Team Cherry quite literally ran out of money and were forced to dump it out there
“We’ll keep that for the sequel” is a classic line in the industry. Every game team has to make those calls about what to cut for release, and whatever doesn’t make it in, well, you “keep it for the sequel”
@@ExzaktVid Yoshi originated as an idea for the first Super Mario Bros., as Shigeru Miyamoto really wanted Mario to be able to ride a dinosaur. However, technical limitations prevented this from happening and it wouldn't be until Super Mario World that this concept was finally realized. Also the idea of Link being able to travel between two time periods was a concept intended for the first Legend of Zelda game. Originally, Link would have been able to time travel to a distant future version of Hyrule where he would have collected computer chips from dungeons. This idea was then re-visited in A Link to the Past but ultimately became the concept of the Dark World instead. Concept art of Princess Zelda in a futuristic outfit was made and can be found online if you search for official A Link to the Past artwork. It wasn't until Ocarina of Time that the idea of travelling between time periods was finally realized, albeit the two time periods are only separated by seven years rather than travelling into the distant future to a high-tech version of Hyrule.
If you have scrapped the original story line than after you release the game (to avoid spoilers) you should absolutely make a video to show off your old story notes and discuss what a larger scope, emotionally resonant magnet story looks like!
A potentially controversial opinion: If you're not planning to keep up with compatibility issues on Linux over time, instead of making a Linux build, just make sure it runs flawlessly under Proton. I have several games on my Steam Deck that have native Linux versions that just don't work any more or at least don't look or work properly 5+ years after release. Switching them to the Windows build running under Proton has made every one of those a flawless experience.
Not controversial at all, in my opinion. Factorio has a 2d game with a whole team of experts, and they still had to do a ton of work for native Linux support. In many ways, Proton _is_ native Linux support, and it lets you let someone else do the hard work.
Like I get Linux purists and stuff. But honestly Linux itself aka Gnu/Linux is itself an overlay on Unix. Turtles all the way down. If Proton games are performing. Nobody cares.
@@KevinJDildonikno it’s not??? Linux is an implementation of a Unix-like OS, not a layer on top of Unix. The source code for AT&T’s 1969 commercial product Unix is not running when I run Linux, whereas the source code for Linux is very much running when I run proton. Like, I also will play Proton games and be happy as long as they run well, but this is a genuine technical difference that it is strange to see conflated because these situations are nothing alike
Since the audience plays the game without all the ideas and extra thoughts in mind, devs "good enough" is the players "whoah, awesome". Applies for many forms of art
Yea music is absolutely no different. 40-50 song ideas, maybe 20 get explored and expanded seriously, maybe 15 get completed, and then maybe 10-12 make the final cut after fleshing them out. Rough numbers here obviously, just a general example. Also goes for tinkering with individual songs. You can spend ENDLESS amount of time trying to spruce up a given song in so many different ways, but you really need to just stop at some point, step back and see the big picture and go, "Yea, that's good". That stepping back and seeing the big picture can be the hard part, as you spend so much time in the weeds of all the details. This further applies to the actual recording of parts, and then also with the mixing/mastering stage. Limited studio time used to be the big pressure point to make hard decisions in the past, but now with quality home recording so easy and affordable, people really need self discipline when it comes to this stuff.
As a Software Dev myself, I love these videos. I love following not only the development cycle of the game but also seing you grow and learning as a developer yourself. Keep up the good work.
It's incredible, isn't it? I can't believe it's actually happening. A game about magnets. MAGNETS!!! Each time I think about it, my world shifts on its axis.
Pretty satisfying ending for this series, there will probably be one or two more videos to get into some nitty gritty details, changes always has to be made and that’s completely understandable, no one expects the first game to be their magnum opus.
As an indie dev, I was reluctant to watch knowing some hard truths awaited me - I was not disappointed. :)) Physically moving the finish line closer is a great way to 'make progress without making progress'. All the best Mark, much deserved success to you.
Believe it or not, there is some mileage in 'less is more'. Sometimes a game can outstay its welcome by becoming too big, and you get too tired to give it your best. You can even see this in triple A games where they just drag on endlessly, where the pacing and fun would have been better if it had been shorter. Facinating to have gone on this journey with you.
I've literally never clicked on a video so fast I've been following this series since it started like 2 or 3 years ago, and it's amazing seeing Mark persevere with this over such a long period of time
I am kinda curious, why exactly you are so interested in this series in particular? There's a lot of devlogs out there that get barely hundreds of views, but some interest people so much that they'll drop whatever they're doing to just watch them. I wonder what's the thing that makes you personally do it?
Please, an option to turn off the "need a hint" popup would be very welcome. I cannot stand when I'm playing a puzzle game at my own pace and have it pop up in my face like a condescending insult if I just want to be left alone to solve it. This was a HUGE pet peeve in horizon forbidden west and the latest god of war, but I have even seen it in some adventure puzzle games. Just.... let me turn off all hints, suggestions of hints, reminders that hints exist, etc and let me have my satisfaction of solving things on my own.
Yeah definitely should be said once and then left alone or you really want a constant reminder do the old puzzle game thing of having a lightbulb on screen mapped to a button.
The fact thta Mark has this pretty much done before the Games Jam means he gets to participate in the Game Jam. Obviously his game can't be entered to win, but he can create alongside for the fun of it.
Trying to hit a deadline on a novel currently and it’s fascinating how similar the creative process is despite being so completely different in terms of craft. I think no matter what you’re creating (especially as an indie artist) there’s a push and pull between the thing in your head and what is possible within limitations. I really appreciate you talking about this, because a lot of times when we see a finished product, we have no idea that compromises were made, and a lot of artists don’t like to talk about those compromises; like it would give away the sleight of hand of a magic trick. But if you want to learn magic, you HAVE to learn sleight of hand. And creativity is the closest thing to magic humans have.
This is a pretty tangential anecdote, but I really related to the ideas in this video thinking about my Magic the Gathering cube. If anyone doesn't know, that's essentially a player-curated expansion made of existing cards. It is super fun to play and unbelievably fun to build, and gives you this feeling of being a game designer in a very micro-scale way. When I built my cube years ago, there was this huge shift in feeling from starting to build it, theorizing about it, collecting cards, to suddebly sprinting to the finish and having a "product" on your handas. I've been in that final stag of polish and improvement for years now and it is just so much fun. Congratulations on finishing your game, Mark! And thank you for taking us along for the ride.
"i was making the game longer, but not better" was a really good conclusion to come to! It's hard to make that mental shift We do the same in project management - people, scope, or time are the levers to pull. If you have a hard deadline, you can add more resources to the team (with diminishing returns as people have to avoid stepping on each other), and/or you can reduce the scope of what you're trying to achieve
One suggestion I'd have about the hint reminder system: if there's some way to turn it off, some players might prefer it. I know for myself when I'm playing games with similar systems, seeing a message popup that implies I'm struggling more than I should is more frustrating than the struggle itself. For some people, such a reminder is helpful, but for me it's much more of a nuisance, and I doubt I'm the only one.
Every creative person who has to create a deliverable product has said the same thing. Ultimately you need some sort of arbitrary stopping point, because from the creative side, nothing is ever perfect. You could keep tweaking and expanding on things forever. So the creative work is done when necessity says it is.
marketing tip from HTMAG: don't label your game as ''cute'' or ''charming'', it's not the developer who decides whether the game is cute and/or charming. It's the audience that decides if it's ''cute'' ''funny'' charming'' ''epic'' etc. So it's best to avoid saying your game is THIS and THAT in the videos and steam description and instead focus on WHAT makes your game ''cute'' and ''charming''!
Right. I always imagine it's like personal profiles along the lines of "I'm a handsome guy with an amazing body and a great sense of humor", and that is practically a direct invitation for people to think, "Oi! I'll be the judge of that, Mr. Prince Charming, sir...". But include that good picture of you without further comment, put a funny turn of phrase in there, and the people that are interested will self-select, and most everybody else will move along without protest (or maybe even tell a friend who might be interested). These and other pearls of dating wisdom brought to you by a middle-aged married man whose last exposure to "personals" was over 20 years ago. But my wife and I both bet the people haven't changed much. lol
Over the past few months It's felt like there's been this really tangible cynicism and pushback towards games that market themselves as 'cozy'. It's not something I particularly care about but it has certainly been fascinating to see the reception to games like that.
10:38 It’s super inspiring to hear that you are as successful as you’ve gotten and your first game release will be on the 10 year anniversary of GMTK next year will be a decade for me designing, programming, abandoning ideas and starting over... I think this might’ve been the most important video I could’ve seen and it really gave me motivation to try for my own 10 year anniversary release date! Seriously thank you for reminding us that every devs journey is different and see you at the GMTK Jam 2024 too!
Developing has been my favorite series on this channel. It has been so inspiring and informative to see the process of making a game from start to finish. Very excited to play Mind Over Magnet once it releases! Congrats on everything so far Mark.
I find it nice that we use the term "Game Development" rather than "Making Games" because as you discussed it at 10:45. You're developing a game, there's no other words to describe it but the literal meaning of the word and you can see how the game has *developed* since the start. When I started out years ago, I thought "Oh making a game is easy I know programming" like I've created a physics engine for a game engine I made in C++, I've learnt how to do frontend/backend web development to create a 3D voxel modeller. But the most challenging thing I've done has been all the gamejams I've participated in and a 12 week assignment on producing a game with a team of 14 people. Developing games is NOT easy and I greatly underestimate the term "development" all the time... I still haven't developed my own game yet, I'm so jealous aha. I'm also hyped to play this game, it looks really fun!
A buddy and I won a game jam in 2022 and we, naturally, decided to finish it into a polished/finished release. It took an entire year, and it only finally released due to other things on my calendar forcing a date out of it. The list of what "done" looked like kept getting reworked and shortened. If you don't force yourself to finish something, you never will. It's so easy to polish and expand an idea eternally. Done is better than perfect.
Congrats on the release date, Mark - plus the full circle of it being the ten year anniversary since your first video upload! Really appreciated the insight in this video, especially exploring the positive trade offs for cutting content to hit the 2024 release window. It's incredible how many games come together in the last few months or even weeks of development, and your explanation was a great example as to why. Congrats again!
Hi Mark. As a board game designer and musician I know exactly what you mean about the difference between something being "finished" and "done". Even if you don't have a specific deadline, working on something too much can muddy the whole project. I'm excited to hear that MOM has a release date, and I'll be buying it at launch. Good luck my friend!
I have a suggestion for something as a DLC for Mind Over Magnet if and when you decide to attempt it: Mind over Magnet Maker. Basically users can make their own puzzle levels using the mechanics etc.
SO glad I checked the comments first, cos of course we're thinking it :D. Yeah a map editor for this would be honestly the perfect final piece of the puzzle; let the players learn their *own* goood design through trial and error ^_^
Damn I remember watching the first episode of this series in highschool. Crazy to think it's closing in on the end! Congrats Mark it's been a long run!
In my honest opinion, November may not be a good time to release as an indie, as most, if not all AAA studios make their releases on November. There is a risk of indies being buried under the AAA wave (although I'm faithful that won't be the case here).
Blood, Sweat, And Pixels is a great read for understanding all the brutal things that need to happen for a game to get released sometimes. Cut content is just inevitable when it is so tough to predict how long it will take to make a game.
Added to the wishlist! It is really neat to see this game's development from start to finish--thanks for creating this series and letting us see behind the curtain. Really looking forward to playing it!
Something else to note about finishing a game is that no one will ever know what they're missing unless you tell them. There's a decent argument for not telling them, btw, because this lets them focus on the joy of what's actually there, rather than the anxiety and grief of what might have been and never was. For instance, I had planned to make my entry for the Pirate Software Game Jam include deck building, but scrapped it midway due to time constraints. If I left hints of that in the game, it would feel unfinished, so I just removed it all entirely and you'd never know it was there unless you read this post, the GDD, or watched my dev streams of it. Similarly, there were text elements that said, "Watch out for spiders and the occasional scorpion," but two days before the deadline, the spiders were still bugged and I hadn't even drawn the scorpions yet, so unless I finished those before the deadline, it would mean having the remove those elements from the tutorial lest the player be like, "I don't see any spiders or scorpions here. What are you talking about? Bad game, unfinished. Zero out of ten."
Your videos are so good. Great narrative style, humerous, thought-provoking and entertaining. Wish I could do the game jam, but I'm busy and not quite there with the skills yet to make anything comprehensive. Games dev takes a lot of practice with all sorts of learning approaches. You've done so well to get to this point.
I love your videos more and more the more I watch them. It feels like you are building a community instead of just capturing attention. It's like a nice chill environment, and I get reinspired whenever I watch it. Really, just so cool, I can't help commenting lol...
I remember the original "Thief" game. Something like 8 levels, two of which had you collecting two mcguffins each. Then "Thief Gold" comes out, now 10 levels, each mcguffin gets its own level, and a bunch of clean-ups. (Like, now you can actually fit thru that doorway!) It was pretty cool to see "Oh, *that* is how you meant it to be, that seemed weird the first time."
I get the same feeling as well. I haven't developed a game myself, but I have assisted in the development for someone else's game for a couple of years. The scope is something that needs to be clear and manageable when working on a game solo or as a group. And there are many factors that can obstruct your plan. Without a scope, it is a never ending challenge with no real deadline. There have been a lot of thing I have done, and yet there are a lot of things I regret for that game. But it is a learning experience.
cant wait to celebrate 10 years of gmtk and play your first real video game it feels some what special to get to play a game you've seen being developed over so many years
It may have been 3 years, but it’s been a hell of a ride! This is an excellent overview of actually *finishing* by making the hard decisions. Not everyone can be Jonathan Blow. That release date!! Nice timing
It's fun to watch these vids and see you discover these fundamental truths firsthand! YES, you are 100% right on the money about trimming the scope to save your sanity. And I think that finding it to be getting more polish is a terrific insight. I'll keep that in mind.
I find the most powerful tool for any art is "ok what if I had to finish this now" this tends to lead to a true plan of the things that are needed to finish and helps focus any sort of development :) hats off to you
Honestly this is very impressive. Not everyone sticks with a project and even fewer finish one (regardless what kind of project it is). Also the project fatigued is real. It’s not being burned out on it per se, but feeling in your bones that a project is done (regardless of it’s current scope)
Wood furnishing's only get its final finish once the carpenter makes sure that there are no defects and it is exactly as they want it. Same thing applies to game dev
It really doesn't... No game is bug-free, and no game can be bug-free unless they are incredibly, extremely simple. The whole point of the video is that, at some point, you have to be content with what you've done. Your comment is the exact opposite of that statement.
Congrats! Very happy to see your progress to this point. I got into game design and your videos were one of the things that helped me with my decision to start.
This is the wrong way to think about story. You do not read a games story, you play it. The story should be viewed as a framing device to justify what you are doing, it doesn't need to have dialogue being dumped on you constantly.
I ran into some of these problems when I tried to make a 3d rts. It got super involved and small mistakes or changes meant big rewrites. In fact any change became very involved. I gave up after about three years, but had a good time. I'm glad to hear you have "finished" your game!
10:19 If I were you I wouldn't bother with Mac support. It's costly, complicated and frustrating for a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase you're gonna get. Just an overall bad experience for really no gain at all.
I wish he'd never did his own game. Not because it's bad. I feel the channel was always about talking and analyzing games. If I remember right, at some point he felt like a fraud, because talking about something without doing it is frowned upon (maybe rightly so). But doing something is HARD. I'm afraid, during his own project, he lost the light heart approach talking about things. Every sane person would lose that. Everything has infinite context now. It's almost impossible to talk about anything anymore without glossing over details that some see crucial (and others don't). Everything he will (and has) say (said) will be measured by his own game. It's all weighted now. Edit: On a positive note, congrats on finishing the game. This is huge. It's a big achievement and something to be proud of. He took the hard route and stick to it. Well done! Seriously :)
I wouldn't worry about it. That sort of weighted reference point was there even before he made a game, in the form of having played other games and experienced other art and by having a culture and world view. It's not less light hearted just because there is the experience of a gamedev behind it now, it's just more accumulation on top of all the rest. When the gamejam is over, and he gives his thoughts on his favorites, I implore you to see if anything changed for the worse.
Awesome to see it's done, I will be wishlisting. I have been using this series as a podcast during my jogs for the past 2 years or so and I've come pretty far fitness wise, it's great that you have too, game wise.
What a journey! I can't wait to give it a go! You've been so transparent and sincere about this whole process, it's impossible not to root for you at this very moment. The game looks awesome and lots of fun! Greetings from Brazil!
Nice. Was cool to meet you at Develop and hear first hand how making the game has helped your other videos, future ideas, the game jam, etc. Looking forward to seeing it out in the world in Nov.
Honestly. I’ve watched most of the videos on this channel but I think this is quite possibly the one which is the most useful. The hardest part of developing a game, at least in my opinion is calling it finished. Having never finished developing a game myself, this is both encouraging and something which I can apply practically when it’s time.
Mad respect for not just talking about video games but walking the walk as well. Have the game on the wishlist. Hope to see videos or article (maybe with the folks at gamediscovery?) on game discovery, marketing, pricing, reception, aftermath, and maybe even long term performanc/effects. So many exciting things remains to hear about! Good luck on the the game! Will definitely buy it if it fits my budget (Indonesian region).
Congratulations Mark on (nearly) finishing 🎉. I could believe that it had been 3 years since this series started, so I went back on the developing playlist to check, and sure enough, it was true. This has been a great series, I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the game, and I'm already looking forward to it's sequel too :)
I can only imagine the vast amount of knowledge you obtained from actually constructing a new game. This is trully great Mark, congratulations on the achievment! GMTK has been an enormous source of inspiration since I started watching, may you continue the amazing production for as long as you can. I hope to one day be able to start and finish at least one of my dozens of game projects too.
The GMTK Game Jam starts August 16th - join here to be notified when the theme is revealed: itch.io/jam/gmtk-2024
I'm a narrative designer if you want help getting back up on your channel and your game it would be cool to quickly collaborate.
Cool, I'll actually have time and energy to participate (since I don't have a job currently and I'm not burdened by crunch or burnout for once 😅)
21k joined so far
🎉
I'm ready to Kick Name and Take Butt!!!
*Narrows eyes for a bit* Wait a second...
One tiny note: Put a "don't ask again" option when it asks if you need a hint or put that in the settings, it can feel like the game is mocking you a bit when these kinds of pop ups show and you're just a bit slower to pick things up
yeah that could get annoying really quick if you're the type who likes to figure things out totally on your own even if it's taking a while. The hints are essential for keeping away frustration for a lot of players but a setting to toggle those would prevent frustration for the other type who really enjoy picking it up for themselves no matter the loss in flow.
You're reminding me of my least favorite choice made in the new God of War games where even if you flip the setting for puzzle hint wait time to the max, eventually some annoying kid is going to tell you how to solve the puzzle you started before you went pee and now the game is treating you like a dumb child.
Can't stress this strongly enough - I should be able to turn off hint prompts easily
@@BigDaddyWes I've been playing shadow of the collosus recently for the first time and the ominous voice telling me what i should do several times while i know it and im just fighting the clunky controls is extremely annyoing ngl
@@happyfullfridge This is essential for me. I hate hints popping up like that because the game makes me feel like I am taking too long, like I am failing the puzzle. Usually I am in a flow state of some kind, working out the puzzle in my head, and then seeing that just deflates the whole process.
"i removed the scissor gate"
noo im gonna miss the scissor gate :(
"i missed the scissor gate so i added it back"
LETS GOOO
In one of the demos, I would sometimes stop playing the level and go ham on the scissor gates. Even without sound, it still felt like it had weight to it, and was so satisfy to slap that thing open/closed.
@@torgranael its such a satisfying mechanic i love it!!!
There’s a reason why a common saying is “when making a game take your current scope, half it. Then half it again. That’s the new scope for your game”
So in that case i'll take my scope, think even deeper for longer and make it even bigger so by the time i've halved it twice, it will be the same as before!
halving it twice rather than just quartering it?
Where is that common again?
@@SpiceLettuce No. You have to go the long way round if you want to be a true indie game dev, and do it as inefficiently as possible.
But then that new scope becomes the current scope, and I get caught in a quarters loop...
"- How do you know when a game is finished?
- You run out of money."
Edmund Mc Millen
Also: the second best thing after an amazing story is no story at all!
This explains the situation with silksong
Just kidding
I guess team cherry took that just a tad too seriously
You guys joke but it is true that the only reason Hollow Knight came out was because Team Cherry quite literally ran out of money and were forced to dump it out there
@@ziwuri that is exactly what team cherry did with hollow knight, the problem is for silksong they probably have almost infinite money
“We’ll keep that for the sequel” is a classic line in the industry. Every game team has to make those calls about what to cut for release, and whatever doesn’t make it in, well, you “keep it for the sequel”
It's hard to kill your darlings, better say they're "at the farm" for now. And sometimes they do come back, usually in a different form
And in some cases, things that didn't make it into the main game end up in expansion packs. But that's another story, I think.
ToTK was supposed to be a dlc for BoTW, but nintendo decided to make it into a whole new game instead.
@@ExzaktVid Yoshi originated as an idea for the first Super Mario Bros., as Shigeru Miyamoto really wanted Mario to be able to ride a dinosaur. However, technical limitations prevented this from happening and it wouldn't be until Super Mario World that this concept was finally realized.
Also the idea of Link being able to travel between two time periods was a concept intended for the first Legend of Zelda game. Originally, Link would have been able to time travel to a distant future version of Hyrule where he would have collected computer chips from dungeons. This idea was then re-visited in A Link to the Past but ultimately became the concept of the Dark World instead. Concept art of Princess Zelda in a futuristic outfit was made and can be found online if you search for official A Link to the Past artwork. It wasn't until Ocarina of Time that the idea of travelling between time periods was finally realized, albeit the two time periods are only separated by seven years rather than travelling into the distant future to a high-tech version of Hyrule.
@@ExzaktVid Same with silksong but it isn't released.
I hope this means that you'll still make the long-awaited video "how to write contracts"........
Yes this! Replying to boost 😛
yeah that would be nice
I'm also waiting for this xD
100%
@@Respectable_Username good idea I'm doing the same thing
If you have scrapped the original story line than after you release the game (to avoid spoilers) you should absolutely make a video to show off your old story notes and discuss what a larger scope, emotionally resonant magnet story looks like!
That sounds like a Twitch live stream session for patrons.
Could be a Patreon only DLC :)
@@lucbloom ah yes lock the story behind a paywall, amazing, you are truly an einstein level genius
He should get Studio Trigger to make an anime out of the story.
naaaah MIND OVER MAGNET 2 BABYYYYY
Rip to OG Max, the very first magnet who sacrificed himself to get the game to completion.
The GOAT. Lowercase. The goat sacrificed to the gaming pantheon to finish the game.
11:13 You heard it here, folks, he's making a sequel! Definitively, totally confirmed!
mind over magnet: silksong
@@matheuscabral9618 you realy made me laugh
Minds over Magnets (co-op edition)
@@matheuscabral9618 Mind Over Magnet 3
@@matheuscabral9618 at least then he never has to concern himself with trivialities like release dates.
A potentially controversial opinion:
If you're not planning to keep up with compatibility issues on Linux over time, instead of making a Linux build, just make sure it runs flawlessly under Proton.
I have several games on my Steam Deck that have native Linux versions that just don't work any more or at least don't look or work properly 5+ years after release. Switching them to the Windows build running under Proton has made every one of those a flawless experience.
Not controversial at all, in my opinion.
Factorio has a 2d game with a whole team of experts, and they still had to do a ton of work for native Linux support.
In many ways, Proton _is_ native Linux support, and it lets you let someone else do the hard work.
@@KiaulenBy definition, if you need a compatibility layer to run it, it's not native. Even if it works perfectly with minimal performance loss
As fellow linux users, me and my roommate 100% agree. Proton is almost always excellent, and sometimes linux native versions don't work or run worse.
Like I get Linux purists and stuff. But honestly Linux itself aka Gnu/Linux is itself an overlay on Unix. Turtles all the way down. If Proton games are performing. Nobody cares.
@@KevinJDildonikno it’s not??? Linux is an implementation of a Unix-like OS, not a layer on top of Unix. The source code for AT&T’s 1969 commercial product Unix is not running when I run Linux, whereas the source code for Linux is very much running when I run proton. Like, I also will play Proton games and be happy as long as they run well, but this is a genuine technical difference that it is strange to see conflated because these situations are nothing alike
Since the audience plays the game without all the ideas and extra thoughts in mind, devs "good enough" is the players "whoah, awesome".
Applies for many forms of art
Yea music is absolutely no different. 40-50 song ideas, maybe 20 get explored and expanded seriously, maybe 15 get completed, and then maybe 10-12 make the final cut after fleshing them out. Rough numbers here obviously, just a general example. Also goes for tinkering with individual songs. You can spend ENDLESS amount of time trying to spruce up a given song in so many different ways, but you really need to just stop at some point, step back and see the big picture and go, "Yea, that's good". That stepping back and seeing the big picture can be the hard part, as you spend so much time in the weeds of all the details. This further applies to the actual recording of parts, and then also with the mixing/mastering stage. Limited studio time used to be the big pressure point to make hard decisions in the past, but now with quality home recording so easy and affordable, people really need self discipline when it comes to this stuff.
@@maynardburger exactly. And as Mark said: if the ideas really stick in your head, there's always room for another project.
Facts. Artists will kill themselves over small choices that ultimately go unnoticed to viewers
As a Software Dev myself, I love these videos. I love following not only the development cycle of the game but also seing you grow and learning as a developer yourself. Keep up the good work.
So excited to play Mind over Magnet 2 on November 6th 2034
Every time he says he's making a game about magnets, I am in complete shock and awe. I never thought it could be done before
It's incredible, isn't it? I can't believe it's actually happening. A game about magnets. MAGNETS!!! Each time I think about it, my world shifts on its axis.
@@jernaugurgeh451😂😂
The name is misleading
Pfp checks out
Wise man once said: "Yeah bitch! Magnets!"
Pretty satisfying ending for this series, there will probably be one or two more videos to get into some nitty gritty details, changes always has to be made and that’s completely understandable, no one expects the first game to be their magnum opus.
or perhaps their... _magnet_ opus?
As an indie dev, I was reluctant to watch knowing some hard truths awaited me - I was not disappointed. :))
Physically moving the finish line closer is a great way to 'make progress without making progress'. All the best Mark, much deserved success to you.
Believe it or not, there is some mileage in 'less is more'. Sometimes a game can outstay its welcome by becoming too big, and you get
too tired to give it your best. You can even see this in triple A games where they just drag on endlessly, where the pacing and fun would have been better if it had been shorter. Facinating to have gone on this journey with you.
I've literally never clicked on a video so fast
I've been following this series since it started like 2 or 3 years ago, and it's amazing seeing Mark persevere with this over such a long period of time
Yea same
Same here! This is the video series I most passionately follow currently
I stopped someone else's video immediately to click on this one when I saw it in the recommendations.
I honestly can't believe it's been that long already
I am kinda curious, why exactly you are so interested in this series in particular?
There's a lot of devlogs out there that get barely hundreds of views, but some interest people so much that they'll drop whatever they're doing to just watch them. I wonder what's the thing that makes you personally do it?
A youtube game dev actually shipping a game is a rare thing. It's really great to hear about problems and solutions to this part of the process.
Congrats. 11:00 so true. People don't talk about the skill of "finishing" enough, only the skill of "making"
Please, an option to turn off the "need a hint" popup would be very welcome. I cannot stand when I'm playing a puzzle game at my own pace and have it pop up in my face like a condescending insult if I just want to be left alone to solve it. This was a HUGE pet peeve in horizon forbidden west and the latest god of war, but I have even seen it in some adventure puzzle games. Just.... let me turn off all hints, suggestions of hints, reminders that hints exist, etc and let me have my satisfaction of solving things on my own.
Absolutely seconded. Can't stand that stuff; tell me about the hint system at the beginning and then leave me alone.
_Actually_ solving puzzles of _a puzzle game_ on your own? You're making too much sense.
A slider is most welcome, with how long until the hint pop-up shows up, with the end of the slider being "never".
Yeah definitely should be said once and then left alone or you really want a constant reminder do the old puzzle game thing of having a lightbulb on screen mapped to a button.
Huge
The fact thta Mark has this pretty much done before the Games Jam means he gets to participate in the Game Jam. Obviously his game can't be entered to win, but he can create alongside for the fun of it.
Let him sleeeeeeeep
@@runefaustblack alright but game jams are also fun
🎉🎉🎉 Congrats Mr Toolkit!
Lol
"Please, Mr Toolkit is my father, call me Gamemaker's"
@@Imperial_Squid😂
3:14 just a correction. Aim was not to use all 48 colossi initially planned, but to pick the most suitable ones and "subtract" the rest.
Thats explain why all 16 feel a unique and fantastic experience.
(But also make me want fight 48 colossi)
@@RoyMatzem I felt the same too. More monsters to defeat!
But I realize that would make the game dull.
Trying to hit a deadline on a novel currently and it’s fascinating how similar the creative process is despite being so completely different in terms of craft. I think no matter what you’re creating (especially as an indie artist) there’s a push and pull between the thing in your head and what is possible within limitations. I really appreciate you talking about this, because a lot of times when we see a finished product, we have no idea that compromises were made, and a lot of artists don’t like to talk about those compromises; like it would give away the sleight of hand of a magic trick. But if you want to learn magic, you HAVE to learn sleight of hand. And creativity is the closest thing to magic humans have.
Like he says, it really applies to all forms of art
Congratulations, Mark!
This is a pretty tangential anecdote, but I really related to the ideas in this video thinking about my Magic the Gathering cube. If anyone doesn't know, that's essentially a player-curated expansion made of existing cards. It is super fun to play and unbelievably fun to build, and gives you this feeling of being a game designer in a very micro-scale way. When I built my cube years ago, there was this huge shift in feeling from starting to build it, theorizing about it, collecting cards, to suddebly sprinting to the finish and having a "product" on your handas. I've been in that final stag of polish and improvement for years now and it is just so much fun.
Congratulations on finishing your game, Mark! And thank you for taking us along for the ride.
"i was making the game longer, but not better" was a really good conclusion to come to! It's hard to make that mental shift
We do the same in project management - people, scope, or time are the levers to pull. If you have a hard deadline, you can add more resources to the team (with diminishing returns as people have to avoid stepping on each other), and/or you can reduce the scope of what you're trying to achieve
One suggestion I'd have about the hint reminder system: if there's some way to turn it off, some players might prefer it. I know for myself when I'm playing games with similar systems, seeing a message popup that implies I'm struggling more than I should is more frustrating than the struggle itself. For some people, such a reminder is helpful, but for me it's much more of a nuisance, and I doubt I'm the only one.
There's definitely better way to doing it then basically calling you dumb for sure.
Congrats on finishing the game thats seriosly really impressive not everyone that started development on a game can say they finished it
Every creative person who has to create a deliverable product has said the same thing. Ultimately you need some sort of arbitrary stopping point, because from the creative side, nothing is ever perfect. You could keep tweaking and expanding on things forever. So the creative work is done when necessity says it is.
Cant wait for the Mind Over Magnet Boss Keys breakdown, and congrats on following through on the vision (and a whole new arm of your channel) Mark !
marketing tip from HTMAG: don't label your game as ''cute'' or ''charming'', it's not the developer who decides whether the game is cute and/or charming. It's the audience that decides if it's ''cute'' ''funny'' charming'' ''epic'' etc. So it's best to avoid saying your game is THIS and THAT in the videos and steam description and instead focus on WHAT makes your game ''cute'' and ''charming''!
Right. I always imagine it's like personal profiles along the lines of "I'm a handsome guy with an amazing body and a great sense of humor", and that is practically a direct invitation for people to think, "Oi! I'll be the judge of that, Mr. Prince Charming, sir...". But include that good picture of you without further comment, put a funny turn of phrase in there, and the people that are interested will self-select, and most everybody else will move along without protest (or maybe even tell a friend who might be interested).
These and other pearls of dating wisdom brought to you by a middle-aged married man whose last exposure to "personals" was over 20 years ago. But my wife and I both bet the people haven't changed much. lol
Show, don't tell.
Describe what makes it X, not declare that it is X.
"Any man who says 'I am the king.', is no true king." - Tywin Lannister
It's similar to youtube shorts with the #viral tag, it can be annoying.
Over the past few months It's felt like there's been this really tangible cynicism and pushback towards games that market themselves as 'cozy'. It's not something I particularly care about but it has certainly been fascinating to see the reception to games like that.
10:38 It’s super inspiring to hear that you are as successful as you’ve gotten and your first game release will be on the 10 year anniversary of GMTK next year will be a decade for me designing, programming, abandoning ideas and starting over... I think this might’ve been the most important video I could’ve seen and it really gave me motivation to try for my own 10 year anniversary release date! Seriously thank you for reminding us that every devs journey is different and see you at the GMTK Jam 2024 too!
Wow. Can't believe we're here. Congrats Mark and thank you for sharing your journey with us! It's truly inspiring
Developing has been my favorite series on this channel. It has been so inspiring and informative to see the process of making a game from start to finish. Very excited to play Mind Over Magnet once it releases! Congrats on everything so far Mark.
I find it nice that we use the term "Game Development" rather than "Making Games" because as you discussed it at 10:45. You're developing a game, there's no other words to describe it but the literal meaning of the word and you can see how the game has *developed* since the start.
When I started out years ago, I thought "Oh making a game is easy I know programming" like I've created a physics engine for a game engine I made in C++, I've learnt how to do frontend/backend web development to create a 3D voxel modeller. But the most challenging thing I've done has been all the gamejams I've participated in and a 12 week assignment on producing a game with a team of 14 people. Developing games is NOT easy and I greatly underestimate the term "development" all the time...
I still haven't developed my own game yet, I'm so jealous aha. I'm also hyped to play this game, it looks really fun!
A buddy and I won a game jam in 2022 and we, naturally, decided to finish it into a polished/finished release. It took an entire year, and it only finally released due to other things on my calendar forcing a date out of it. The list of what "done" looked like kept getting reworked and shortened. If you don't force yourself to finish something, you never will. It's so easy to polish and expand an idea eternally. Done is better than perfect.
Congrats! Look forward to playing the game!
Also, "I could get rid of Max" *Yeets him into laser, music cuts off for a second* Sent me XD
Congrats on the release date, Mark - plus the full circle of it being the ten year anniversary since your first video upload! Really appreciated the insight in this video, especially exploring the positive trade offs for cutting content to hit the 2024 release window. It's incredible how many games come together in the last few months or even weeks of development, and your explanation was a great example as to why. Congrats again!
Hi Mark. As a board game designer and musician I know exactly what you mean about the difference between something being "finished" and "done". Even if you don't have a specific deadline, working on something too much can muddy the whole project. I'm excited to hear that MOM has a release date, and I'll be buying it at launch. Good luck my friend!
MOM is such a great abbreviation, I wanna see it used more hfdhghdf
I have a suggestion for something as a DLC for Mind Over Magnet if and when you decide to attempt it:
Mind over Magnet Maker. Basically users can make their own puzzle levels using the mechanics etc.
Just what I was thinking!
it seems simple but level editors are almost always a totally massive pain to implement
@@acblook Didn't realize that, maybe never mind then
SO glad I checked the comments first, cos of course we're thinking it :D. Yeah a map editor for this would be honestly the perfect final piece of the puzzle; let the players learn their *own* goood design through trial and error ^_^
@@acblook Like almost everything people ask for. "Game X did it, so it should be easy."
Damn I remember watching the first episode of this series in highschool. Crazy to think it's closing in on the end! Congrats Mark it's been a long run!
10:52 - thank you for using the ISO 7010 sign E002 "Emergency exit (right hand)". Standardization rules.
So excited for Mind Over Magnet 2!
In my honest opinion, November may not be a good time to release as an indie, as most, if not all AAA studios make their releases on November. There is a risk of indies being buried under the AAA wave (although I'm faithful that won't be the case here).
Blood, Sweat, And Pixels is a great read for understanding all the brutal things that need to happen for a game to get released sometimes. Cut content is just inevitable when it is so tough to predict how long it will take to make a game.
Added to the wishlist! It is really neat to see this game's development from start to finish--thanks for creating this series and letting us see behind the curtain. Really looking forward to playing it!
Something else to note about finishing a game is that no one will ever know what they're missing unless you tell them. There's a decent argument for not telling them, btw, because this lets them focus on the joy of what's actually there, rather than the anxiety and grief of what might have been and never was. For instance, I had planned to make my entry for the Pirate Software Game Jam include deck building, but scrapped it midway due to time constraints. If I left hints of that in the game, it would feel unfinished, so I just removed it all entirely and you'd never know it was there unless you read this post, the GDD, or watched my dev streams of it. Similarly, there were text elements that said, "Watch out for spiders and the occasional scorpion," but two days before the deadline, the spiders were still bugged and I hadn't even drawn the scorpions yet, so unless I finished those before the deadline, it would mean having the remove those elements from the tutorial lest the player be like, "I don't see any spiders or scorpions here. What are you talking about? Bad game, unfinished. Zero out of ten."
Congratulations, Mark! Looking forward to playing it.
Your videos are so good. Great narrative style, humerous, thought-provoking and entertaining. Wish I could do the game jam, but I'm busy and not quite there with the skills yet to make anything comprehensive. Games dev takes a lot of practice with all sorts of learning approaches. You've done so well to get to this point.
Congratulations on it no longer being excruciatingly painful to watch the playtests!
I love your videos more and more the more I watch them. It feels like you are building a community instead of just capturing attention. It's like a nice chill environment, and I get reinspired whenever I watch it.
Really, just so cool, I can't help commenting lol...
there has never been a finished game in the entirety of gaming
games are like art, never finished, only abandoned
I remember the original "Thief" game. Something like 8 levels, two of which had you collecting two mcguffins each. Then "Thief Gold" comes out, now 10 levels, each mcguffin gets its own level, and a bunch of clean-ups. (Like, now you can actually fit thru that doorway!) It was pretty cool to see "Oh, *that* is how you meant it to be, that seemed weird the first time."
I get the same feeling as well. I haven't developed a game myself, but I have assisted in the development for someone else's game for a couple of years. The scope is something that needs to be clear and manageable when working on a game solo or as a group. And there are many factors that can obstruct your plan. Without a scope, it is a never ending challenge with no real deadline.
There have been a lot of thing I have done, and yet there are a lot of things I regret for that game. But it is a learning experience.
Fantastic. Congrats, Mark.
cant wait to celebrate 10 years of gmtk and play your first real video game
it feels some what special to get to play a game you've seen being developed over so many years
4:30 making the magnet literally "bipolar" is actually genius.
it seems closer to DID than bipolar, but who's to stop logic from getting in the way of a good pun
It may have been 3 years, but it’s been a hell of a ride! This is an excellent overview of actually *finishing* by making the hard decisions. Not everyone can be Jonathan Blow.
That release date!! Nice timing
Mind over magnet is a brilliant name
It's fun to watch these vids and see you discover these fundamental truths firsthand!
YES, you are 100% right on the money about trimming the scope to save your sanity.
And I think that finding it to be getting more polish is a terrific insight. I'll keep that in mind.
We love magnets
Holy shit! It's been 3 years already? What a jurney man. I'm really looking forward to playing your game
“It’s been 3000 years”
Congratulations on your completing your game! It's been a real pleasure watching your journey with Mind over Magnet for the past few years!
"Art is never finished, only abandoned", attributed to Leonardo Da Vinci.
"Art is never complete, only abandoned", attributed to Art Garfunkel after Paul Simon ditched him
I find the most powerful tool for any art is "ok what if I had to finish this now" this tends to lead to a true plan of the things that are needed to finish and helps focus any sort of development :)
hats off to you
The intro sounds like you got a bit too attached to magnets... I'll see myself out.
Honestly this is very impressive. Not everyone sticks with a project and even fewer finish one (regardless what kind of project it is).
Also the project fatigued is real. It’s not being burned out on it per se, but feeling in your bones that a project is done (regardless of it’s current scope)
Wood furnishing's only get its final finish once the carpenter makes sure that there are no defects and it is exactly as they want it.
Same thing applies to game dev
It really doesn't... No game is bug-free, and no game can be bug-free unless they are incredibly, extremely simple. The whole point of the video is that, at some point, you have to be content with what you've done. Your comment is the exact opposite of that statement.
Sounds like someone who never made a video game before.
Congrats! Very happy to see your progress to this point. I got into game design and your videos were one of the things that helped me with my decision to start.
Honestly, if you had included a storyline i doubt anyone would have ever bothered to read it. Glad you made that choice!
This is the wrong way to think about story. You do not read a games story, you play it. The story should be viewed as a framing device to justify what you are doing, it doesn't need to have dialogue being dumped on you constantly.
It’s been a pleasure to watch you go through the process, Mark, I’m excited to play the final product!
1:28 what is this site?
Trello
Looks like Trello
Trello
Trello
Trello
I ran into some of these problems when I tried to make a 3d rts. It got super involved and small mistakes or changes meant big rewrites. In fact any change became very involved. I gave up after about three years, but had a good time. I'm glad to hear you have "finished" your game!
10:19 If I were you I wouldn't bother with Mac support. It's costly, complicated and frustrating for a fraction of a fraction of the playerbase you're gonna get. Just an overall bad experience for really no gain at all.
Making the game longer VS better really brought this home. Congratulations on being done, and I look forward to playing your hard work.
Honestly could have skipped the 'story' and 'cutscenes' entirely, even in the short glimpses shown in this video it only came off as grating.
You've clearly put so much thought in the polish of your game (and vids) already! GL with release
I wish he'd never did his own game. Not because it's bad. I feel the channel was always about talking and analyzing games. If I remember right, at some point he felt like a fraud, because talking about something without doing it is frowned upon (maybe rightly so). But doing something is HARD. I'm afraid, during his own project, he lost the light heart approach talking about things. Every sane person would lose that. Everything has infinite context now. It's almost impossible to talk about anything anymore without glossing over details that some see crucial (and others don't). Everything he will (and has) say (said) will be measured by his own game. It's all weighted now.
Edit: On a positive note, congrats on finishing the game. This is huge. It's a big achievement and something to be proud of. He took the hard route and stick to it. Well done! Seriously :)
I wouldn't worry about it. That sort of weighted reference point was there even before he made a game, in the form of having played other games and experienced other art and by having a culture and world view. It's not less light hearted just because there is the experience of a gamedev behind it now, it's just more accumulation on top of all the rest.
When the gamejam is over, and he gives his thoughts on his favorites, I implore you to see if anything changed for the worse.
Awesome to see it's done, I will be wishlisting. I have been using this series as a podcast during my jogs for the past 2 years or so and I've come pretty far fitness wise, it's great that you have too, game wise.
Super excited to play the game when it releases and now there’s finally a date in my calendar I can mark out!
That's a compelling video on the whys and - importantly - the hows of polishing a game. Congratulations on hitting that big milestone.
What a journey! I can't wait to give it a go! You've been so transparent and sincere about this whole process, it's impossible not to root for you at this very moment. The game looks awesome and lots of fun! Greetings from Brazil!
Nice. Was cool to meet you at Develop and hear first hand how making the game has helped your other videos, future ideas, the game jam, etc. Looking forward to seeing it out in the world in Nov.
Honestly. I’ve watched most of the videos on this channel but I think this is quite possibly the one which is the most useful.
The hardest part of developing a game, at least in my opinion is calling it finished. Having never finished developing a game myself, this is both encouraging and something which I can apply practically when it’s time.
Excellent job! Im not much of a puzzle game girl but I wish it the success it deserves for all this lovingly-documented effort!
So exciting to see this project near its completion, congratulations on setting a release date!
Congratulations Mark! Excited to finally play this.
Mad respect for not just talking about video games but walking the walk as well. Have the game on the wishlist. Hope to see videos or article (maybe with the folks at gamediscovery?) on game discovery, marketing, pricing, reception, aftermath, and maybe even long term performanc/effects. So many exciting things remains to hear about! Good luck on the the game! Will definitely buy it if it fits my budget (Indonesian region).
Congrats on getting to the finish line! Every time I watch one of the Mind Over Magnet videos, I get so pumped to work on my own game.
Congratulations Mark on (nearly) finishing 🎉. I could believe that it had been 3 years since this series started, so I went back on the developing playlist to check, and sure enough, it was true.
This has been a great series, I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the game, and I'm already looking forward to it's sequel too :)
Your work is always entertaining and insightful. Both videos and Mind Over Magnet. So your changes and new goals are understandable!
Genuinely cool to see a game developer explain the process of making a game.
Huge kudos to you Mark for sticking with it. You're nearly there and we're all eagerly awaiting the full release!
I can only imagine the vast amount of knowledge you obtained from actually constructing a new game. This is trully great Mark, congratulations on the achievment! GMTK has been an enormous source of inspiration since I started watching, may you continue the amazing production for as long as you can. I hope to one day be able to start and finish at least one of my dozens of game projects too.
Congrats for making it this far! Both with the channel and your game 😀
GMTK is one of the few videos I've been pavlovianly trained to hit the thumbs up before it finishes loading.
I loveeeee that you're releasing it on your 10th anniversary! Proud of you brother. Has been an awesome journey to watch. :D