Ground is a Myth Rant Tech Talk Friday - ARRL agees :)
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2024
- This video 'Ground is a Myth Rant Tech Talk Friday - ARRL agees :)', I will talk about why 'Ground' is a myth an dhow the ARRL vice presedent had the same message at the latest conference.
Here is the 'Ground is a Myth' from ARRL: • Ground is a Myth! | 20...
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I am a life member of the ARRL, the book you talked about is like a master collection of information regarding electronics and radio building information and radio operation. I have been a Ham Radio operator for about 40 years now and finally bit the bullet and got my extra class license about 5 years ago. Your cell phone works on digital packets that are burst of information, not to get to deep into it Ham radio developed a lot of what we have today in communication. If you knew half the stuff in the 100 year master set of books from the ARRL you would be one smart cookie.
Thanks for this great feedback!! Yes, their books are full of great info - and from what I remember - are written in basic english;)
Eddie, in my early days of my career as an analog engineer, we were taught ground was a reference or return system. With the advent of digital systems, engineers got lazy. Switching speeds were slow, so everything was treated as lumped elements, just tie it together. Only the black magic engineers (RF) cared about returns due to transmission line characteristics. Now with everything being as faster the better, transmission line or distributed characteristics now dominates designs and younger engineers are lost because of the mathematics involved. You see this in your presentations, if there is math involved they do watch. Tinker toy engineers.
Thanks for your great feedback! Yes, paying attention to returns is very important in the faster moving circuits. The SMPS make us power supply guys pretty good signal integrity engineers:) Also, I've been offered EMI design jobs in the past.
As a retired guy of past engineering, and a ham; nothing to do with my last name being Bacon (lol) great rant on return lines as they are and hats off to the ARRL. 👍
Thank you for your comment! Yes - the ARRL is alive and well and still doing great work;)
Hi Ed. Glad you're still at it. Call it what you want. As an engineer you need to know what all those references/grounds/returns are used for and how to manage them. Some places have engieers whose primary job is to mamage them. I dont see any myth and certainly no controversy, just engineering opportunities. When there is disagreement or different viewpoint just use it as an opportunity to learn and get to a common point rather than bolster your stance and create difference in potential (see what i did there)
Love it Kedrick! There's an idea of what 'ground' is and I mean how it relates to 'Earth Ground'. The Vice president of ARRL did a great job presenting this under the title 'Ground is a Myth'. Very interesting presentation. This about this - people who put dirt (earth) in a box with crystals - and think that this 'grounding' will make their sound system sound better;) There is a belief around 'ground' and that's why she - and I are here to present a more clear picture. To your point - an opportunity to learn about what 'Returns' really are - poorly named as grounds.
Electricians call the return path "neutral", which is not as clear as saying "return", but at least we distinguish neutral from ground. (Although many people get confused by the fact that in electrical code, neutral conductors are call "grounded conductors", whereas ground is called "grounding conductor". The reason for that in the code is that the neutral is bonded to the ground at the source of distribution, so it is in fact grounded.)
Edit: Electricians call the return path neutral as long as it is not also periodically the source of current, i.e., in a multiphase system with no neutral, each of the conductors has a voltage with reference to earth ground, and also server periodically as return paths, and but are not called neutrals. (This is probably obvious but I realized my previous statement that the return path is called neutral did not rule out that each of the phases in a three phase system were both "line" and "neutral" alternately.)
Thanks for this great feedback! Yes, in AC power - both line and Neutral have current changing directions from plus to minus. When they started grounding one of the conductors - then they needed to know which one was bonded to the 'ground', so they called it Neutral (it's not positive or negative - it is both - just like the 'Line'). The ground conductor does not have to be 'Grounded' with a ground rod to do the important job - and that is to tie all metal chassis to the same conductor - that has no current flowing - until a fault condition. The second job is to take everything off line in case of this fault. Being 'Grounded' protects the system from lightning - to some degree, but it also helps reference the power system to Earth ground - which should have no current flowing - it serves as a reference so that the system does not get charged with static energy. The meaning Earth Ground has to many is a myth.
Interesting topic Eddie. I agree, as an engineer, it drives me crazy how humans use vague, poorly defined words, and ‘Ground’ is certainly one of those fuzzy words that often lacks specificity in electrical systems. Other single words I find annoying are: ‘Quality (as an adjective)’…which implies ‘Excellent’ but humans love the word Quality for some weird reason. ‘Appropriate’ is another one that drives me crazy…appropriate in what way?, and why? I call these ‘Wimpy Words’ because they do not convey much meaning as a stand-alone word. BTW- I am guilty of using these single words 😂 , but NOT when lightning safety standards are required of course.
Thanks so much!!
Ground never made sense to me, I saw that ARRL video about a week ago and it confirmed what I thought about all this grounding everyone keeps harping on.
Thanks for your great feedback!
What I learned in school, "Ground is just a path with less resistance than you."
Thanks for your feedback! The problem with the name Ground - is which one are they referring to?
I received a magazine from ARRL during the 60s.. I was always excited to get the new edition as a kid.
I like their handbook as a grown up kid.
I like the fact that you beat up on audiophiles. They need a few slaps once in awhile to wake them out of their sleep.
There's another kind of grounding you didn't mention. It's being well grounded in understanding of how electronics work.
Your channel is a connection to this ground. 😉😉
Thanks so much for your great feedback! Let's stay grounded;)
I took my multimeter outside and put it in the ground... and touched the other end with my sweaty fingers, i noticed a negative voltage, then a positive,then a negative, its like we were exchanging electrons. I took the multimeter somehwere else recently and that didnt happen again like i expected. Yeah, what is up with the ground?
You were seeing some sort of Earth Battery type power, although having one of the leads on your skins is odd.
You may have been an antenna, receiving rf and other ambient emf.
Free energy! Take that, Mehdi!!! 😏
HI Eddie, I love the video. It was awesome. Great information. Thank you.💯
Thank you! I appreciate you!
Man, I love when you lough at these audio grounding boys 😂
LOL - it is hard not to poke the bear;)
What I thought was click bait hooked me, then I learned stuff 😂 Subscribed
LOL - love it! Thank you!
We have hydro generators in our province that use earth ground as a reference/return
Thanks for the feedback! This is interesting! I'd say that it is referenced to Earth ground, but I do understand that it is used for fault current. I believe that they use resistors between Neutral and Earth to limit this fault current.
Using one word to cover so many concepts sure has turned into a disaster, but it almost seems like it was inevitable. Many people are first exposed to basic electrical concepts by learning about household or automotive wiring. In one instance we bond the chassis to safety ground and isolate it from the return path, in the other we use the chassis as the return path. This seems to lead to blurring of these concepts early on, and has just compounded over time.
I try to be mindful of my choice of words when talking about these things, but this misuse of the term “ground” feels like it has become convention.
Thank you for this very insightful feedback. I understand the wording options - this subject has made this so misleading;)
Doesn't a metal chassis literally connect to GROUND outside of a building and at a utility pole? 'Ground' is therefore appropriate. Not so for a local circuit return path.
Thanks for the great question! Yes, you are correct. But - the main thing about the chassis connection - is that all chassis are tied together - forming a chassis - or safety ground. The second most important thing (IMHO) is that it provides a fault path if there is a Line short to chassis. Yes, the ground rod does tie into the safety ground / Neutral connection, but it is there as lightning protection (not for power) and as a reference to keep the power system from floating above ground. Remember this title - that I love - is from the ARRL conference. ;)
Ground is not a myth. It is just a poorly applied term. Early electrical distribution systems in rural areas often just used one wire, to save money. The return path was literally the ground. All earth grounds are not equal due to soil conditions. You can have an earth ground that is a fraction of an ohm or nearly megohms. That is why earth grounds need to be measured to ensure their usefulness. That is why ground mats were developed or multiple ground rods need to be driven to meet safety specifications.
With RF things do get a bit weird. What is the return path for a propagating electromagnet wave in free space? However for the antenna to work properly it does need a return path either to ground or the other side of the transmission line. The IEEE has published multiple books on "ground/grounding and bonding."
Also as anyone who has worked on old broadcast home radios, has learned, some time you prefer isolation.
As a licensed (Extra) HAM and a member of ARRL, their handbooks, even the older ones are a wealth of knowledge.
Thanks for your fantastic feedback! You are right but then there is the 'Myth' in many minds what ground is. I think that's what the presentation at the ARRL meeting was trying to convey. She, the vice president, also used an antenna application as an example.
You hit the nail on the head when you said it is a poorly applied term!! Ground is so often used when it should be termed as some sort of return;)
@@KissAnalog I did understand the "Myth" was calling any common return "ground." Your video was useful in putting that in perspective. I just wanted to point out that the earth is often the real ground return path. Lightening is another example of the earth being a conductor.
"Ground is a Myth"
I try hard not to walk on it.
Nice ;)
We could have another video on how to pronounce Kirchhoff. 😁
LOL - yes - we could;)
"We could have another video on how to pronounce Kirchhoff. "
In the land of the free and home of the brave, I pronounce it like it rhymes with "pizza".
yeah I saw somebody having some company in supposed to be audiofile electrician?? they removed the connecting point to the house earth and run some cables in the ground towards the pole in the street for the earth, in his garden what was roughly about halfway from the pole to his house, to me I would thought that would cause any discharge to go up the earth into the house especially with lightning. I tried to point this out and they said I didn't know what was talking about😮
I know there is regulations where you have your earthwire outside situated I think in my country it's 40 m from any electrical supplying pole.
what was the point of running an extra wire putting a stake in the ground towards the electricity pole where they could have just kept it where it was they were claiming some better quality of sound if they did it that way yeah right pull the other one.
Wow - I would like to see the schematic of this. I'm sure we could see the unfortunate reality of this.
You have a very nice shirt - it makes you think of vacation, summer - I like it
Thanks - I bought it for the channel - or that's what I told my wife;)
Glad you picked that up! I watched that video and thought it was great. Thanks for your video!
Thanks so much! I was happy to see the corroboration;)
Word salad, which can only confuse your audience. Yes,, the term "ground" is overused, but, 1) proper management of "return" currents is essential to manage common-mode noise problems, even at audio freqs, 2) at high frequencies, the complex impedance of the grounds becomes important, as mismatches cause reflections to rattle around (again, noise which can effect even digital switching), 3) ground/"return" loops are a real problem, even at audio frequencies, and 4) etc.,, etc. So, "ground is a myth" is fun to say with a smirk, but all the consequences that attend managing return currents (grounding) are still major practical problems in application. Next, the Amateur Radio Relay League is a hobbyist organization, certainly of long-standing (I still have my dad's ARRL antenna handbook), but hardly a place to look for technical authority outside of amateur radio. I'd check with the IEEE, Lastly, your closing example with lightning is simply foolish - static charges, by their definition, don't support current flow. Lightning discharges are certainly important, and impressive, but irrelevant (they're what safety grounds are for) to this discussion.
Thanks for your feedback. I think you lost the reason for the 'smirk' as you call it. 'Ground' is not important to our circuit - but return currents definitely are.
The ARRL might be a 'hobbyist organization' but if you think they are not full of serious engineers - you would be insulting a large group of people and would be wrong in fact.
I do read a lot of IEEE stuff - especially on lightning and static discharge. IEEE is full of doctorates that may not have near the physical experience of the members in the ARRL. Radios and Antennas need people that know what they are doing.
Have you ever performed an ESD test. It doesn't sound like it. You might be right that static charges do not have current flowing - but like lightning being charged - when they discharge you better believe there is current flowing - obviously not as much as lightning.
Your 'Word Salad' is my Rant - as is found in the title of this video.
So you may think the Vice President of the ARRL has only an understanding of radio and antennas (which is huge in my book), but maybe you should watch that video (in my links), and see if you change your mind. From the tone of your comment here - I bet you will not watch it.
couldn't you have given us a link to this April, how am I supposed to find it
Yes - thank you - the links are in the description now;)
@KissAnalog ...how 'bout her phone number...
@@KissAnalog ok thanks
Where is the link to the book please?
Sorry - the links are in the description now;)
great, vid 73 n4jrs
Thanks so much! So, I take it that you are an ARRL member:) Did you attend the conference?