CZ MTR Production vs $7K Modacam Open
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- Опубліковано 1 лют 2023
- In this video we compare a factory CZ MTR Production division rifle in 22lr to a Modacam Custom Vudoo Open rifle build with the Nighforce 7-35 ATACR We perform a shootout comparison with no second takes or editing at 50 yards and 100 yards using Lapua Center-X ammunition.
IT IS REALLY WORTH BUYING A CUTOM RIFLE? - Розваги
One of my fav channels, you get to learn and be entertained. I Never miss a vid.
Thanks Topp Notch. I really do appreciate the support and I thank you for watching the channel.
I really appreciate this and your other videos. Easy to understand. Topics are very interesting. Thanks for sharing. Blessings
The efforts in upping the production quality of your videos is coming together very well. Great job.
Thank you very much!
Great video guys...lot's of practical common sense food for thought. Well done!
My favourite - honest - rimfire channel. Thx
Hello from eastern NC. I recently picked up a CZ 457 Varmint and installed an Arken SH4J. I have the older version on a .223 Wylde 24" build. Nice video! Keep it up.
Great showing!!
Glad to see you back.
Glad to see you back!
Thanks Hope, I am glad I was able to come back.
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Petermarco_90210
I agree on the tuner and the thick barrel, additionally the tuner is on the barrel/muzzle. I've seen a lot more impact on tuners that are hanging like 2.5-3" past the muzzle. With lot testing at Lapua, I've found that a lot tested ammo shot equally well with or without the tuner. For now I am using my tuner for crown protection and a 8oz weight at the end of the barrel :)
I’m a big fan. Keep up the great work buddy!
Great to see you back, see you on rumble!
Matt has developed into a great shooter!!
He has become a great shooter for sure and he will only get better!
I agree on tuning a truck axle size barrel. Lot test is more valuable. I wish I could recall a video of a benchrest guy that tuned his barrel for every temp and humidity combo. He had a notebook he for recording. I think it was EC that said he was always in tune. But the time and money would astronomical. The barreled would be shot out before then.
Great video fellas love these type of video's. I agree it depends on what you are going for and agree with Matt depends on who is controlling the trigger finger and the ammo.
My money is that you can make it into the top 10 at the Ice Breaker. Your CZ is plenty accurate enough for the match to be competitive WITH YOU SHOOTING IT. I agree it doesn't take a super expensive rifle to do well. Being stable and consistent matters more. Can't wait to see you do it live! Good luck
love your videos. no BS just hard facts. Keep going.😁
Great review and honest look at what you get for your money.
I have a Vudoo. But I have also shot Bergara and CZ in competition. You are right in saying it’s the nut behind the bolt and second the that is testing for good ammo in that gun. ☘️🇮🇪
Thanks PR Ireland. I’m still going to run open after this match but just wanted to show people that the advantage to an open rifle isn’t as big as some people think.
At the NRL22 Championships, 2 years in a row, the "Base" class shooter finished in the top 10 overall. This was a factory Tikka T1X and an Athlon Helos. So overall rifle was below $1200.
Good to see you guys shooting again. I think you will pull out top 10 on the Ice Breaker match. Matt has come a long way. It’s sad you put all that work and UA-cam strikes you out. Have a good weekend Ray.
I just picked up a lefty 457 varmint. After weeding through a lot of chaff stumbled onto EagleEye then to Xring. Quality consistent quality content. Regarding Utube, its likely they outsourced their screening work offshore.
For anyone curious, Ray came in 2nd, behind only Andy Slade. Crazy impressive!
Awesome video and even better shooting this makes me a little more confident about my b14r at 100 yards coming from handloading centerfire my expectation was a little high I feel way more confident knowing anything under an inch is competitive
It is hard to accept the accuracy but rimfire is a completely different animal. You really are at the mercy of the ammo and rifle combination.
@@XRING oh yes certainly I’ve had some awesome groups at 50 and decent at 100 overall very happy with it
Thanks guys for a gread video! My experience with tuners is not good! I used two different tuners on both a stock MTR barrel and on a Lijia barrel on my Manners MTR 457. After spending a lot of money on lot tested ammo, neither barrel shot better with a tuner. Just another thing to NOT worry about as match time grows nearer. I have found SOME benefit with a tuner on my Mauser 6.5x55 Swede with a Krieger barrel.
Right on bro I don't think a tuner will help at all but that's just me.
Beagleman
Great video a gain. I found that even thread head taking a way of a pencil barrel can change the point of impact on rifle. Sure, ammo special Long Rifle are very important, some barrels are very sensitive in ammo choose. It have really not to very expensive! I'm using a 600 Euro Anschütz rifle with a 18" barrel, system bedded in a ordinary wood stock and being in a 1" target out of 100m / 110 yards.
It’s good that you are brining to the front about tuners, I’ve read a lot about tuners and also carried out many tests myself and also found that they are not repeatable. Always great video 😊
Thanks liquid color. I’m sure some people have luck with them. I on the other hand have not seen enough benefit to convince me to continue to use them.
Can’t wait to follow your channel over on Rumble. No sense in what YT is doing to the best channels on their platform. So many other 2A channels over on Rumble as well.
I ran into the same problem as far as repeatability with a few different rimfire tuners. I have been using tuners for rimfire and centerfire for three years. The Harrell rimfire tuner has worked best for me because of a ball and detent that is very reatable. The only difference is that my rimefire barrels are .860 to .920 in diameter. Thanks for videoes.
Thanks George and thank you for the comment.
some very interesting results, I think its cool and I wish more people knew that you could get into the sport for less money.
According to Eric the key to repeatability on tuner is you need to back to tuner past or under the value then back up to load the treads. His new design incorporates a spring to always put a load on the treads. I have his tuners and it does help with good ammo. Won’t help with bad ammo. I have it on my cz457 pro varmint and it does impact the groups. In fact it not only changes group size it shifts the impact …. With that said it makes me somewhat nervous about an inadvertent movement of the tuner during a match. I put witness marks on it to check but still a concern… waiting on my 457 MTR to deliver to shoot… wish NRL would change production from 1250 to 1500 like PRS. I can’t even run my Arken EP on my provarmint in NRL… I need to run my arken SH. I can see my bullet in the EP but not the SH… the slightly better glass in the EP helps… waiting on my vudoo as well.. will mount my mark 5 and run open with that one….
Great video as always. I have set up a rumble account and have started following the UA-camrs that have been absent the last couple of weeks in case they didn’t make it back on to UA-cam.
Thanks Sixrutters. They got a LOT of us for sure. I know I deleted over 80 videos from the library because of the content. Really was a wake up call for me. What’s next? 10 round mags only ?
It sure is nice to see people actually speaking the truth. Your experience is the same as my own. At the end of the day the action is just a tool that needs to reliably feed and extract, with a good barrel and right lot they all shoot the same. Good video Ray.
Thanks Tyler! Mad respect for you man. Good luck representing the USA.
@@XRING I appreciate it Ray! The respect is mutual. You would be surprised at how much I learned from you which really helped get me to where I am. It's the little things that separate the field, and those subtle things are what you provide.
Just got mine CZ457, now it is available with MDT chassis :)
Setting up my rumble access right now
When the other platforms start getting big enough Google will swallow them up too. I love the 457 content. I shot my 1st match last month with a 457 varmint in an xrs. I did ok considering I dont have a practice area with barricades and stuff to practice on.
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Petermarco_90210
You and Josh are the only two that I have seen just decide they want an MTR and be able to get one. I have sat on lists with CZ distributors for over a year and not been able to buy one. I believe your right if you want to shoot production class it’s the gun to get, put your time and money into ammo testing and you can be competitive in that class. I’ll come out and say it though; Those rifles are not readily available and therefore give an advantage to those able to buy a rifle off the shelf that has a match grade barrel and a stock that most people can get comfortable behind.
I think this video and the CZ MTR in production division video should be a must watch for any beginner thinking of PRS or NRL competition.
I think you fairly represent the "Indian" and the "ammo lot" is more the variable than just trying to buy the best equipment.
One thing you mentioned advantage wise on the "open" guns was the ability to really have the adjustability fit the shooter perfectly which was a plus, another I think would be a trigger upgrade to get a actual match grade trigger.
I think that it would be awesome to see you take the MTR and just do those two mods and see if they could help keep the stock barreled action competitive even though with those mods it would be shooting in open class.
I really think that the secret to growing the shooting sports is to promote like you are doing it does not take a $6-7,000 gun to place near the top.
These are great videos and you have gained a new subscriber here that loves seeing content aimed at the normal blue collar shooter that has somewhat limited resources to spend in their shooting hobby!
What is blowing my mind is some of the incredibly bad very expensive 22 match ammo I have seen videos on recently. With rimfire you are at the mercy of the ammo you bought.
@@charlesmckinley29 I think on a local club level in the beginner or "factory" class again to promote competitive match shooting to newcomers matches in which all the competitors used the same ammo which was controlled and handed out by the club at the beginning of the competition again would be interesting and allow those shooters which could not afford either the time or the funds to do extensive testing on brands, tiers or lot numbers of ammo an equal shot of hitting the lottery on whether their gun liked the ammo being fired.
I think in the beginner ranks to get the new people interested they need a chance to actually compete and possibly place well and they need to be able to do so at an affordable price point and reasonable investment of time in preparing to shoot the match.
A club level match using something like a club handed out mid-tier Eley Team, Target or Club (any brand of ammo could be used) would be great to promote a cost effective beginner/factory level competition that anyone could afford and parents may be more willing to invest a reasonable amount to even get their kids involved on a higher number level.
I really think affordability can have a lot of effect on how successful or the number of entrants on beginner types of classes for a match at a local level.
Ammo of course can be a big part of that and needing to shoot a high number of boxes of different brands and different tier levels of ammo to find something to be competitive is a big part of that expense.
Hand out ammo limits that cost and if a club switches up brands of ammo from one match to the next with the brand to be used that day announced after the registration closes for said match even then it makes how the ammo may shoot out of ones gun a lot more random.
@@billwiley7216 I spent my time blood and treasure instructing for Project Appleseed. I wish I could get a fraction of the interest in filling my lines that I see at the local PRS shoot. We offer excellent marksmanship fundamentals interspersed with the events of April 19th, 1775 the battles of Lexington and Concord. Ray has the coolest toys and I enjoy watching him.
great video, it's the confirmation of what I've always thought, it's better to spend the money on ammunition for training, even if you know that an enthusiast is looking for the best weapon... I hope to see you at the PRS World Championship in Italy this year, there is a fantastic shooting range waiting for you
Thanks Stephano and thanks for watching the channel. I won’t be in Italy but I know there is a great group of guys going to represent from the US as well as Australia. 👍🏼 Remember, I am just a talentless UA-camr. 😁
A tuner on anything other than a benchgun is a waste of time & money, rimfire, or Centerfire
Love all your content!! Guess it’s time to migrate to follow elsewhere!
He actually says that the tuner might have an effect by just having more weight there. I was always on the fence and ended up getting rid of mine on both center fire and rimfire after Litz article.
Take a look at the Lowey Products (Australia) tuner. Its mounted on a mini bloop tube. I was really worried about removing it but finally bit the bullet and set it back to the same setting and again put 10 rounds on a 1" target at 100y. I wonder if the bloop tube helps.
The tuner may not have a place in prs. Conditions effect the tune. No tuner your gun will change also. I take 3 different lots with me all the time now. I always use a tuner in benchrest. Its a must. I can adjust the tune during warm up. Your tune will change through the day on a prs match. If you track temps, humidity, barometric pressure for a couple of years. You may be able to use a tuner in prs22. Its just going to bite you at the worst time until you have tons of data.
This is making the case for the Mk 2 Savage. If you know what I mean.
After your other cz video I broke out the SK ammo and my Grandpa's old Winchester model 69 and at 50 yard's and 100 it was a good day that old rifle will out shoot any rimfire in my price range today it shoots good enough I can use the duplex reticle where it gets to the fat point at a certain magnification and ring steel at 175 all day... Poor man's BDC reticle
Do 22 suppressors increase or decrease accuracy? In my experience 30 cal cans tighten up groups but 22 has a higher sd.
Very interesting video as so little difference between the two rifles just curious when you get out to 2/300 meters is it still as close
As to tuners iv two anschutz rifles a 1761 with a 18 inch barrel with a diameter of 19 mm that responded well to a tuner.
Now the 1710 XLR 18 inch barrel again but 21 mm on the muzzle and it shoots lights out with or without the tuner which I think makes it harder to tell if your gaining anything with the tuner. On a side note the 1761 shoots well with a suppressor and the 1710 doesn't lol
Teressa's husband here. My MTR is a hammer with SK standard plus. I wish you were facing Matt P with it.
I actually have a couple of lots of the SK standard plus and my MTR absolutely hates it. That is the ammo that never did better than 2.5” at 100 for me.
Thanks Ray, based on this video most would be much better served with the CZ and $5000 in ammo compared to the custom rifle.
Spoiler alert Ray won production class and won 2nd overall against the open rifles!
awesome video man. I feel like the kids is a solid maybe kinda guy... lol do you like chocolate cake ... maybe on wednesdays...
Hi!
Can I find somewhere your "summary" after started in production with this MTR?
Cannot help but wonder about a tuner on a long stiff barrel with 1,25 inch diameter. If I have that correct, my thinking would be that it may perform better on a barrel of 0,8 inch.
thanks for the video and info is great sorry i am new can you polish the trigger for prs 22lr production mach thanks
X-ring. Interesting test for 22 barrels is to compare barrel length to SD/ED. 16.5 vs 20 inch. Wonder if longer barrel would lower them… that would be a huge benefit for longer stages… thoughts??
Desert Precision’s YT channel is Eagle Eye Shooting. Kenny built many if Ray’s rifles. He has 2 videos about what makes a “precision rimfire.”
I bet you take 1st in production ans 2nd in overall. Just a guess ;) great video
LOL! Now that’s funny 😄
This just shows that no matter how tricked out a gun is, it's at the mercy of inconsistent ammo.
I always was under the impression that any barrel length past 20" on a 22lr was not going to offer much if any gain. All the powder is consumed in 18 to 20". Going longer can actually slow the velocity down. Yet the trend today is going to these longer than 20" barrels. Seems Matt is seeing a loss of velocity and the longer barrel's length might be the reason for it.
Ray has done the testing on X-Ring showing pass a certain point beyond 18/20" barrels doesn't help at all. On Eagle Eye Shooting, his video shows all powder burnt up at 11". So why the extra inches of barrel? Maybe I got the funds to do it!
Longer barrel might also stabilize the bullets better. 16.5 is barely one turn on the bullet in a 1 and 16 twist.
Aren't ten 5shot groups worth the same as five 10shot groups? Average is average, right?
There is a very long conversation to be had around tuners. Living in the upstate it would be a sit-and-chat discussion to explain my research. I'll simply say this here, biathlon athletes have historically used tuners. However they have different settings for different environmental factors. This means tuner DOPE and traditional DOPE working together.
Thanks for the comment Noel
and thanks for watching. There is no doubt that tuners work. However, with everyone in open class running the MTU, 1.20 and 1.25 barrels I think their effectiveness and repeatability is the problem. It seems many people doing PRS Rimfire and NRL22X are using the thicker barrels to get the balance of the rifle correct. Biathlon rifles aren’t 20+ lbs.
Great comment.
@@XRING I agree that heavy barrels suffer far less harmonic impact with rimfire in general. If there were to be any realized benefit the test would be to change the ambient temperature of the barrel steel. Shooting a baseline in January in the southeast and then fast-forwarding to July at Rifles Only or Gunsite would almost assuredly have the settings changing as the steel heats up.
Though the shooter would see a shift due to the other environmental influences (DA etc).
I also agree that as we all seek to ring out the last few percentage points of performance in our equipment, ultimately the final variable is us.
Environmental makes a difference. I have verified this for myself. Tune in different temperatures and you’ll see the difference. Cold weather away from the shooter warmer weather towards the shorter. If you do enough testing you’ll find repeatability.
Can you guys compare cheap and high end ammos with a stock CZ MTR barrel and a stock NON MYR barrel? Can’t find it anywhere on UA-cam. I’ve been hearing in groups that non MTR shoots cheaper ammo better then the MTR. I think it would be a neat comparison!
Where can you pick one of the mtrs and seem everyone is out of stock
In my limited experience
22 inches is the maximum length barrel for 22lr
Especially in cold weather
Ray, do you happen to know who manufacturers Wolf ammo? Match target shoots best in my 452.
Catch ya on Rumble soon.
Thanks.
Eley is Wolf’s current manufacturer
Impresionante la 7k perdona más los fallos, la mtr a partir del disparo 6 se notaba el cansancio y empezaba a abrir la agrupación.
Creo que la open buscándole la moniciones que le gusta tiene que ser un escándalo.
Al menos es lo que pienso yo 🙋
I wanted to add. Utube apparently only has a way to report violations but no way for viewers to weigh in on quality. I shared this channel with my sons because I feel it maintains a high standard in all regards. Now how do I get Meta's attention :)
JFYI, I saw a UA-cam earlier today called from Demolition Ranch who said he got a strike from UA-cam for putting on a suppressor and installing a mag but they finally talked to someone at UA-cam and they agreed it shouldn't be a problem so you might want to check it out.
I also will bet you finish top 5 with that rifle in production just knowing your skills and that you will have the right ammo.
LOL! I wish! I think top 10 will be rather difficult.
Can you change the trigger spring out in the CZ and stay in production class? It's not hard to get a 9-10 oz trigger in a 457 with just that minor tweak. A good trigger goes a long way in squeezing out accuracy. Personally, I'd rather shoot near the top in production than in the middle in open. That CZ can do it!
Hey David,
I was told that you cannot change or modify any springs. I know someone that was called out at a match for cutting a factory spring shorter.
Welcome to Australia.
Ab auprwssoe with a swdusser that wxtends over the barrel to habel the harmonics. The tuner will never be repeatable because it is variable makeing it varibel all the time.
Not sure if this is a valid question or not, but rather than shooting groups, how do you feel about hitting 10 quarter inch KYL targets in a row???
And a quarter inch is probably completely unrealistic!
What size would be the best test of a pair of guns like that?
LOL! Funny you should mention that Danny. We actually did that off camera and used the 3/8” KYL at 100 yards. My 1/4” broke off at the weld. Both rifles had the same amount of impacts at the end of the day.
Not long before GunTube channels will be gone!
Unfortunately, I believe you are correct Bryan. That's why so many of us are moving to Rumble.
@@XRING yep too big for there britches….see y’all on rumble
You Tube will be paying their dues when the table turns.....I cant wait to see it all cRumble!!!!
Love your channel. youtube has been doing this to alot of great channels. What is Rubbel as you were saying??
Thanks John.
It is Rumble. I am still going to upload to UA-cam. But will cross post all videos under “thexring” on Rumble
@@XRING Awesome thank you.
Update us on the cobalt kinetics 6 Arc please!
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Petermarco_90210
A significant development in .22 rimfire ammunition will be needed to improve the accuracy of these guns. The different lot crap is getting old. An ammunition manufacturer needs to use high speed photograpy as well as presure gauges, and laser measuring devices to experiment until they come up with the answer. Most of the ammo leaves a lot of space in the case which isn't good. The bullets need to be optimized for harness and strictly held there. The priming needs to be done in a way which improves uniformity. With all that, the bullet needs to engage the rifling all the way to the rear of the bullet and the heal of the bullet needs to be gone. Don't know how that would be possible, but imagine the effect on the bullet if gasses are pushing out and sideways against the heal still in the bore when the back of the bullet that contact the rifling leaves the muzzle at a very slight angle? Now you have yaw and the bullet is flying in a corkscrew path while the bullet spin is trying to stabilize it. These guns are a marvel in technology and ammunition is the thing holding them back from their full potential.
I just paid $1,000 plus tax, shipping and fees' for a CZ MTR Why, because you can not find one for sale. Found a dealer that had three, he sold them all $225 above msrp over the weekend before I could call. My local gun store said the distributers has been out of them for two months. AS usual I am a dollar short a a day late. No discount for me.
Help me here. Why do you need such a large diameter barrel for the 22LR?
To balance out the rifle.
Most .22’s with a chassis are very butt heavy and the thicker barrel makes it way easier to balance on barricades and props .
Is there any local shops that carry the 419 scope base for the cz 457
I think the easiest thing is to just order from Area 419 directly.
Is your channel on Rumble listed as X ring? I can’t find it. Thanks
Thexring
It’s all they would let me choose.
I cant say how a Tuner works on a 22LR Rim Fire...But I can say its a Big Plus on my CenterFires.I will run a EC Tuner Brake on all my rifles that needs one.I do have a 6.5 PRC that shoots so accurate that putting one on it hurt it.If mygroups ever get bad I will put one on it. I dont think thata 22Lrand a short 16 in barrel needs one.I may be wrong.Just my opinion from using one on my Ruger Precision 22 WMR.
I run a Tunerbrake on,my 1.250 barrel 30 in long and my 35in 1.350 down to 1.300..It definetly makes difference.And in Altitude and Barometric Pressue changes from TX to GA or TX to KS from 30 ft to 1,467 feet it easy to confirm zero and adjust with the tuner.Its like cheating its so easy.
Ahhhh…. The world of .22lr. One day you shoot 0.2’s and the next 2.0’s. I always have maintained it’s the nut behind the gun. Consistent technique is paramount in 22lr.
For sure Aaron! It can be very frustrating at times.
Ray you should reach out to FX airguns USA I know airguns🙄Just saying. I love your rimfire and centerfire prs videos
Thanks Ryan. I know absolutely zero about air rifles. I might try to see what they say. Thanks for the suggestion.
....screw tuners.....learned my lesson in the late 70's to mid 80's & even with the winchesters & the boss system.....they were a joke too. - thin barrels - yes-true, they are changed w/a tuner, BUT, as soon as ALL conditions change,....5 minutes or 5 hours later,....you're gonna have to retune....lol....
Ray....do you have a podcast? If so, where do I find it? If not, start one!
Hey Elmer, I do not have a podcast. It might be something I should look into for the future. Thanks for watching and for the suggestion.
I love my CZ MTR, but did I see quite a few keyholes at 101yds? Could have been optical distortion ;-)
Good eye. It was actually the paper target, it was bubbled from the paper behind it.
@@XRING Thanks for explaining. No longer a mystery how rounds could tumble and still hit the target :)
This video is GREAT & honest, that said, 22 ammo is NOT what it was 40-50 years ago,.....science being....money,....imagine that.....40-50 years ago, I am gonna say - overall the ammo was better than nowdays, SO - you want good to great ammo nowdays, - you give your LN,....even though the crap 22 is still way higher than ever, seems to be the worse crap EVER !!
Rumble is definitely the way to go
Can not find The X Ring on Rumble
No spaces. Thexring
Im with you time to switch to Rumble
Outsider looking in, so bear with me.....Did the rules for 2024 change reguarding aftermarket triggers? The 2024 NFL22 rules state that an aftermarket trigger is indeed allowed for the production class, the way I read it... The web site for 2024 rules state, and I quote: "This combined MSRP price ($1300) is for the rifle and scope only. It excludes scope rings and bases, bipods, suppressors, data card holders, magazines, spare magazine holders, auto bolt releases, aftermarket triggers, extended magazine releases, weight kits, hand grips, bolt knobs, and barrel tuners - these examples are considered accessories to the rifle." So perhaps the rules have changed for 2024? So confusing! Also, It would be nice to see a SEPERATE class for semi-autos, which would include the most popular 22lr on earth..the Ruger 10/22. Membership would double if there were a SEPERATE class for 22lr semi-autos! Just saying!
PRS and NRL22 have a differnt rule on triggers for production/base class is my understanding
Is Matt still afraid of half-naked show girls ? 😀😃
Every time I watch a video like this I want to run out and drop alot of coin on a 22😂. Is the mtr or precision trainer better or equal
It's a crying shame that Rumble isn't more user-friendly. Using Rumble sucks!
With that said I love my precision 447. For the price it's a tack driver.
Using Rumble is definitely a little more difficult. I’m sure I will get better with it as time goes on.
Please add Utreon to your upload platforms
“Talentless UA-camr”
Bahhahaha special trophies Feb 11 for that division???? Cool video 👍🏼
Hey Eric,
That would be quite funny. Just having some fun with it because we can. 😂
A guy sent an excellent shooting rifle back to Kenny to put a tuner on it and it opened way up. 😢
Yep, I think Kenny tries to discourage people from putting tuners on their rifles but will ultimately provide what the customer requests. I will not recommend them for a heavy barrel rifle build.
I would like to see you on rumble but apparently your not there
Thexring on Rumble
I'm trying to find you on rumble.
Is there something I'm doing wrong?
Thexring on Rumble
NC here. I follow your content...trying to leave You-Tube.... All Gun-tubers should abandon California of the interwebs. Rumble needs a cast app that we can play on our phone & project to TV.
Thanks Zod and thanks for watching. Rumble is definitely not as intuitive to use as UA-cam but I’m sure they will get there.
You missed the first thing it depends on the shooter