They can't seem to change their manufacturing lines to EVs so why do we think they can do it with Hydrogen? The answer for them will always be (P)HEVs...
The other hand is they lay off the majority of their mechanics. That's lots of mechanics. They could start to build personal tanks americans love guns.
If people think a lithium battery fire is exciting, wait until they see what happens when a hydrogen tank at 5000 psi explodes. 😂. Absolute madness. No way will I ever own a bomb on wheels like that.
Hydrogen is a joke, you lose 50% in generating the hydrogen, 10% to 15% to compress the hydrogen and 50% in the fuel cell, you also need batteries or Super-Caps to provide acceleration and braking regeneration. You also have the losses to charge and discharge the batteries, another 2% to 3%. A hydrogen car is the least efficient, most complicated, most expensive vehicle that can be made.
Yes, but the car companies and maybe the oil companies (they can ditch their oil wells and invest in hydrogen production facilities) will be able to maintain their current business infrastructure/model and also do a lot of maintenance on your hydrogen cars like they do on ICE vehicles. EVs are much simpler machines and much cheaper to maintain and they don't want that. If the US and European government can give billions of dollars of bailout money every few years to the legacy automakers, please do your patriotic duty and do the same. The UAW autoworkers are treated like royalty and that needs to continue. DISCLAIMER: this will be demanded of you unless the money is needed to maintain the US empire and all it's weapon needs and the 800 military bases worldwide. That's more important than any domestic needs. Pothole problems are only the concern of the little people.
Add the fact that well above 90% of current world production of H2 is made from natural gas, meaning methane. Which in itself is a absolutely terrible greenhouse gas with 4x the effect of CO2 on the climate. And the methane business is leaking like a fcking sieve..lol. A friend of mine bought a H2 family bus couple years ago. He can fill it up in only 2 places in a city of 3 million, and have to drive for 45min to the closest one. I mean, WTF. How can that EVER be commercially competitive with an EV hooked up to the closest outlet? Old car maffia is scared shitless, and need to do stupid shit like this to fool the stock market a couple of more years. Thats all. Imagine someone trying to sell you a mobile phone that charges with a gas canister..lol...its that stupid what BMW and Toyota re doing.
Add that to the unavailability of any hydrogen stations in almost if not all countries and places. Buy hydrogen car and then kept it in the garage as souvenirs. 😂😂😂... Expensive toys.
For me, one of the biggest issues with hydrogen is that you never have your independence like you do with a battery EV. With hydrogen you need to use the hydrogen filling stations, whatever the cost, whereas with an EV you can use your solar, home charging and basically anywhere you can plug in a standard 3-pin domestic plug, as the worst possible scenario. You don't have to rely on public charging stations; you have options.
@@HydrogenFuelTechnologies Pray tell how after making hydrogen with a water electrolyzer you put it in the gas tank of your car and what are the cost involved?
@@HydrogenFuelTechnologies I don't know your location, but here in the UK, it is *most* unlikely you'd be permitted to make or manufacture any type of explosive gas or chemical in or on a domestic property.
Unless they tackle the production and dispensing of the fuel, this will not happen. Especially with EV’s getting 300+ miles of range, cost less, and being able to recharge using solar energy.
Indeed. You'll never have the convenience of being able to top up with hydrogen at home, for a fraction of the cost of commercial hydrogen filling points.....
Years ago I personally was a huge fan of BMWs hydrogen car program … then Tesla came out and made EVs practical and affordable … in what universe would ANYONE want a hydrogen car when we have EVs The ONLY application I could possibly see is for clean super cars for enthusiasts, think Lamborghini, Bugatti, Ferrari … nothing at BMW level and certainly nothing at Toyota level Just ridiculous to push hydrogen with all of that complexity when we have EV’s with all of the simplicity and convenience and plunging costs
I work as an engineer. How 80% of executives at BMW think "hydrogen is the future" completely eludes me. I am literally lost for words...simply looking at the economics (making the car, paying for the filling station, the cost of the (inefficient) fuel...its completely dead in the water - and yet they can't see it. Maybe they think they can advertise their way around laws of physics ?
This has been going on here in Germany for decades before Tesla was born. I think it's just a usual money grabbing scam. They get funding from the government a.k.a. taxpayer, pretend to work on it, show of a new prototype every couple years, but never deliver because "it's not quite ready for mass production, we need more time and money."
In terms of energy balance, it takes 50 units of energy (in whatever form) to create 1 unit of energy (in hydrogen form). This is why mass adoption of hydrogen is uneconomical. Hydrogen will always be needed as a niche solution for numerous special applications. It is insane trying to pitch this niche solution as a general solution to the world. Basic economics will always prevent it.
Hydrogen is produced on an industrial scale via hydrocarbons and is a high demand product used in many industrial processes. Therefore, hydrogen price will be high for a very long time. Prices will drop when green hydrogen is mass produced globally via solar or wind power. Currently, electricity for EVs is produced via renewable energies and hydrocarbons and does not require gas/hydrogen like distribution points. This Toyota and BMW deal is not about delivering cars powered by inexpensive energies which is wanted by people worldwide. They are trying to replicate printer manufacturers, sell the printers at a loss and make money on outrageously expensive ink refills. It will not work, and I hope Toyota and BMW are wise enough to abandon this deal soon.
However, it will ALWAYS be cheaper to charge a battery with electricity and use it directly from a battery. Any other conversions cost efficiency. Why unnecessarily introduce so many middle men into the process? It makes zero sense.
😂 I actually still remember that my grandpa told me, he will keep his -25 years old trusty Mercedes Diesel yet "another couple years until Mercedes starts selling their hydrogen car." That was around the mid 90s!
Don't worry guys, worldwide hydrogen fueling stations for everyone! You get a hydrogen station! And you get a hydrogen station! You over there, you get one too! Everyone gets free hydrogen stations!
1. Hydrogen is more expensive than petrol per km. 2. Hydrogen leakage is costing global warming. In higher atmosphere it prevents Methane from braking down. Methane is over 10 times worse than CO2. 3. Hydrogen fuel stations have tanks with max 180kg Hydrogen at 700 bar. After 2 cars fueling, the tank has to be brought back to 700 bar, taking 30 minutes. 4. Hydrogen stations have to be refilled with a Hydrogen tank truck after 36 cars(around 5kg per car) . Per day it can be filled 2 x, providing Hydrogen for a total of 72 cars per day . . . . 5. Building a Hydrogen station costs about 1.5 million . . . . how many people see that as a good business model? 6. Hydrogen combustion engines will produce Nox . . . very very bad stuf.
I am against relying on a single source of technology….we should have choice and hydrogen could provide an alternative for those who don’t want an EV. the mandate is to reduce CO2 emissions from cars and hydrogen does that. All other issues you mentioned can be easily solved…
The point is, that hydrogen would allow the current stakeholders to keep their business model almost 1:1. While a switch to BEVs would mean most would go bankrupt, because they can't change that quickly.
@@allesdurchprobiert That calls for the government to step in and be transparent on the cost benefit for all options. Taxpayers money should not be wasted in the transition to clean, renewable energy. That the Capitalist System!
it's all about controlling your fuel supply. You won't be able to produce your own H2, but anyone can produce their own electricity for their own EV. EF Them. Go independent.
If that's the goal, they will indeed control the fuel supply, but people aren't going to be willing to pay the price, so the demand will trend to zero.
The only way this idiocy can succeed is if governments pay for it, with grants and subsidies. That's just a waste of tax. Find out which politicians support hydrogen, and vote for those that don't.
@@Brian-om2hh Agreed. Further, they might even be hoping Hydrogen gets government-funded, sucking up all the EV subsidy money and charging infrastructure money, AND THEN FAILS. Then, voter interest in supporting EV subsidies will be gone, leaving fossil fuels still dominant.
So this is a vision for 4 years time. Just imagine how much battery development and charging infrastructure will be out there in four long years. By the time these cars reach the market, if they ever do, everyone will expect to be able to charge at home. This is never going to be possible for Hydrogen. If this is their great vision for the future, my vision is one without these companies existing for long.
It's not just Toyota and BMW. Honda is also committed to the technology. Actually, there are many car, truck, plane, and railway companies researching hydrogen solutions. Many automakers don't believe that BEVs can fully replace all ICE cars and trucks. Thus, hydrogen is the technology being researched post-hybrid era or around the time frame for 2040s and 2050s. Europe in particular has invested so much in gas pipelines and infrastructure over the decades, they are looking for ways to utilize the infrastructure post-nat gas.
That's good news. People complain about the lack of infrastructure for hydrogen, yet there was also a lack of infrastructure for EVs. When hydrogen vehicles reach some acceptable level of critical mass (there are already hydrogen-powered commercial vehicles), the infrastructure will arrive. Let's just make sure this isn't just another scam.
Meanwhile, Hydrogen costs 36 to 45 dollars per Kg. Even with Fuel Cells better efficiency than combustion vehicles. The cost per mile driven of a Hydrogen Fuel Cell is equivalent to more than 20 dollar per gallon gasoline. If you think that is bad, if these companies build a combustion Hydrogen vehicle the cost per mile driven will soar into the dollar plus per mile driven. Meanwhile, an EV can cost as little as ONE penny per mile driven.
In Denmark, the 10 hydrogen fuel stations, we had, have just been closed some months ago. -Fortunately for the Mirai owners (primarily taxi fleet owners), Toyota had the good style and sense to offer to buy them back. What happened to the (very few) Hyundai Nexo, I have no idea about. Hopefully, the 20-30 owners or so were compensated somehow....
I do not believe BMW actually thinks Hydrogen is the future. They might say otherwise publicly, and maybe even invest - to receive federal money. BMW is highly invested in battery design and they specify their batteries themselves, although they do not have their own factories to mass produce them.
*Sigh* "Hydrogen cars in 2028" - no, just no... 😞 With the speed that EVs are improving right now (battery price, range, selection og models etc), 4 years is literally an eternity to use on this technological and commercial dead end. -Didn't Toyota learn anything from Mirai; the non-seller ?!
Toyota will be the next Nokia example nearing end of the decade. Won't be fully gone just no longer number one. It would be smart of them to ramp up relations with BYD electrification over BWM.
Why do they keep flogging the dead horse that is hydrogen? Its so well proven to be a dead end, how can smart people in these companies really think this?!
Hope they will built a lot of them. It will speed up their bankruptcy for sure. So foolish knowing the Mirai is a complete disaster and many hydrogen fuel stations are CLOSING. Take off, cant wait. The class action case is the USA will generate enough publicity for BMW to become....
I get the feeling that cars with their design and engineering origins from countries that are a demographic time-bombs (i.e. Germany, Japan, Italy etc.) cater to old-school thinking. You've got older workforces and executives who carry on with dinosaur mind-sets. Hence not very innovative and hanging on to nostalgic thinking. But cars that have their origins in places like US, China, France even have a better mix of old and new ways of thinking. If you want to see where the future of EV success will be, it's going to be from the brands originating in these countries.
EVs and EREVs will likely dominate the automotive market by the end of this decade. Hydrogen cars are mostly vaporware. Distributed hydrogen fueling infrastructure is not cost competitive with fossil fuels or electricity. Hydrogen cars have about as much market viability as compressed air cars, but with a much less available fuel.
By 2028, EV in China, the price will be down by half or more and come with life warranty on the battery with very high density giving min range of 1000km and can be charge 0 to 1000km in 5 minutes. Its over by 2028.
Does Toyota and BMW realize the cost of producing an infrastructure along with the cost of getting past all the obstacles just to build a hydrogen car? I really think they are trying to put people off from buying an EV because they currently can't compete with Tesla and BYD. I hear people continuously saying they think hydrogen powered cars will be available in the very near future. Even if they do look at the cost of fuel when driving a hydrogen car. If they think electric power is expensive wait until they see what a liter of hydrogen cost.
As a person who majored in chemistry during my college years, I understand hydrogen. The smallest molecule is diatomic hydrogen (H2). Why is that important to know? It's nearly impossible to keep it contained but possible at a high cost. Second, to liquefy hydrogen , you have to bring it down to -423.5° F, and to do that, you have to keep it under extreme pressure. To store it at ambient temperatures, you will need it from 5000 to 10,000 psi to become compressed supercritical hydrogen. Plus, liquid hydrogen is sold by the liter, not gallons. Currently, a gallon of liquid hydrogen is about $16.00. Now, ask yourself where's the nearest hydrogen station? Oh, I forgot, they have a very limited amount of fuel per station to meet the demands of vehicles on the road. currently. There are approximately 52 stations, and they are in California. Shell just closed 7 of their hydrogen stations. Now, tell me there are going to be hydrogen cars available in, say, the near future? Toyota Mirai are currently in a lawsuit against Toyota because essentially, they are large paperweights.
I have watched a number of your videos recently and enjoyed them. EVs are a hot topic and seem to have their lovers and haters and Government/EU policy will no doubt play a big part in what happens going forward globally. I can’t however see what your objection to Hydrogen vehicles is. You said you “hoped this didn’t work out” with regard to BMW, Toyota producing Hydrogen cars and supplying Hydrogen. Why the negativity? Ok people can’t refuel at home as you say but in places like the UK, huge numbers of people won’t ever be able to recharge an EV at home, in an inner city terrace house setting! And let’s face it, going to a fuel station is something the majority of Europeans still do every few days!!
I used to live in Meguro neighborhood in Tokyo, near one of those hydrogen fueling stations which Toyota apparently lobbied the government to build. I saw a car charging there just once every couple of months. Toyota has the worst leadership at this crucial time for EV transition.
I suppose advancements in the technology could still be great for some use cases. There will be a market, but likely not the mainstream global car market
BEV's are fantastic for consumers, but for the legacy car makers, they are bad as far less servicing and less extras to be sold. Then for having to sell hydrogen at their filling stations, so they can charge more and more. Or we just use our homes electric and charge our own car and remove the reliance on other companies.
Great stuff Sam! Best to the fam & efff cancer! Hydrogen, there is a conversation to be had about it. Imho the conversation is not about Hydrogen and passenger cars. Bmw currently says not to park it's Hydrogen car in a garage no? Most with a garage can just plug in after buying an ev with minimal cost. Who's cheaply installing a Hydrogen generator and a system to pump up pressure and get it into the vehicle? Are we denying Hydrogen ice emits nox? Yall like nox =b
A hydrogen fuel celled car is the same as an EV... except that instead of getting power from battery packs they're getting power from fuel cells... They are basically building an EV with fuel cells.... Maybe just throw away the fuel cells & fuel tanks & just use battery packs from CATL.. you'll have 600-800km range instead of a 200km from fuel cells
Really? Maybe you should research the overall efficiency and complexity of this solution and compare it to BEVS. There are lots of resources that show exactly how bad this is.
It could make Hollywood movies REALLY great again!! -- Remember when the Mythbusters cleaned out hardened concrete in a cement truck? Cars wouud make great PUUFH!s! But it would not get to Hollywood -- even Americans are bright enough to not pursue this, at least after the Nikola mess.
Because hydrogen molecules are so small, it is difficult to contain it in storage and during transport. Leaked hydrogen into the atmosphere will increase other greenhouse gasses, such as methane. So to say that hydrogen is clean partly depends on how it is created and whether you can contain it properly. If it is produced using electricity, it is much more efficient to just use the electricity to charge batteries. Japan is already a world leader in the production and sales of liquified petroleum gas and this move into hydrogen may be linked somehow to this business as well, concerning hydrogen production and their interest with BMW to make hydrogen powered cars.
Consumers will decide, its another alternative to ICE, Hybrid, PHEV, BEV, LPG. Dont understand the negative vibes around alternatives, isnt that the way forward, different ideas, theories etc. 12 months ago Toyota was doomed, yet still having high sales now that supply has returned. BEV hold less than 10% of the market with many models on the market. Do they have a place, yes, are they the best, for some yes, for others no. All subjective opinions. Lets just sit back and enjoy the engineering and devlopment of this industry. How good is it we can choose all these alternatives for our needs brilliant time to be a consumer.
BMW joins Toyota in breaking the laws of physics. The Boeing spaceship team could not contain hydrogen, containing hydrogen is challenging and one of the reasons hydrogen fuel stations have 50% uptime. Cost to fill up $180 for 300 miles of range in California OOPS.
Didn't BMW experimented with hydrogen among the 1st i think in the mid 2000s they had a 7 series, and it had the same problems hydrogen cars have to this day smh
The Mirai costs around £60k in Britain. Around 30 per year are sold here, almost all to corporate users who have their own hydrogen supply... Hyundai sold just *one* example of their Nexo SUV in Britain during the final quarter of 2019 (pre pandemic). I'll bet the sales staff had one hell of a party. Nobody wants hydrogen cars here.
@Brian-om2hh Such a small unit sales drive the manufacturing price way up, but even if they sold a ton of them they would be expensive to manufacture because it's really hard to automate production of pressure vessels and fuel cells which are made of really expensive metals.
Maybe I am missing something... as I am in the USA but over here basically the only state to have Hydro filling stations is California and from what I understand they aren't very reliable or they are constantly out of fuel... So unless the rest of the world has had a major filling station build out I don't know about these cars don't have their all important infrastructure that must absolutely be in place first before you should ever commit the sin of mass producing cars without places to refill them (plug them in) it's very interesting because as and EV Driver we have been hearing for years the F.U.D. that there is nowhere to charge and you need chargers before people will buy and we can't mass produce yet... and here they are putting the cart before the horse by their own logic. but Sam is right when they see a path to profits (selling you fuel) they will build it funny thing is they could do the same thing with a EV charging network if they really wanted to and I would think cheaper than the other to build out
"So unless the rest of the world has had a major filling station build out". Well no; we haven't 🙂 At least not in Denmark, where all (10...) hydrogen fuel stations closed some months ago. Not that much of a catastrophe, really, as the primary owners of the hydrogen vehicles were taxi fleet owners, who were offered a buyback option from Toyota. What happened to the (very few) Hyundai Nexos, I don't know. Hopefully something similar...
No use. They can produce as much as they want but it won't be as practical, convenient and affordable as EVs. Hydrogen can and might be used in selective areas for selected industries but it won't be used by common people as regular transportation. EVs adaptation will accelerate even more in the coming days. Once it gets cheaper and cheaper, EVs will become the mainstream.
Here is the problem with BMW's hydrogen vision. it is too late. Industry will only be able to do a single transition from what everyone is currently using (petrol paradigm) -- and the momentum is towards EVs including the infrastructure and supply chain. Trying to now put Hydrogen into the mix is a distraction -- there won't be enough investment in the supply chain, industrial base and the infrastructure to make it work.
Yeah there was a breakthrough that they could freezee the hydrogen fuel making it greater to transport around safe and put in its container at the gasoline stations .
So Toyota have finally realised that if they want hydrogen to be the future they should do what Tesla did 10-15 years ago and start to build the infrastructure to go with it. You really couldn't make it up.
The legacy car companies and maybe the oil companies (they can ditch their oil wells and invest in hydrogen production facilities) really want to maintain their current business infrastructure/model and also be able to do a lot of expensive maintenance on your hydrogen cars like they do on ICE vehicles. EVs are much simpler machines and much cheaper to maintain and they don't want that. If the US and European government can give billions of dollars of bailout money every few years to the legacy automakers, please do your patriotic duty and do the same. The UAW autoworkers are treated like royalty and that needs to continue. DISCLAIMER: this will be demanded of you unless the money is needed to maintain the US empire and all it's weapon needs and the 800 military bases worldwide. That's more important than any domestic needs. Pothole problems are only the concern of the little people.
In 100 years they will laugh about todays hydrogen idiocracy the same way, as we laugh about the alchemists in the middle age, which tried to make gold from lead. I switched to BEVs 6,5 years ago and that works super nice for me and my family. Both cars now are BEVs from Kia and Hyundai. We can charge at home and in the houses of our relatives - and fast charging here in Europe is meanwhile super easy - even the Tesla Superchargers are now open for all BEVs of other manufacturers. Hydrogen cars are the bullshit story from the fossil fuel lobbyists, which still want to centrally control the price of energy. But the sun doesnt send an invoice ! Put a PV system on your house and charge your car with it !
The best solar company in Australia just installed my new solar system.
Check them out here: www.resinc.com.au/electricviking
Legacy car makers can not let go the earnings from after sales! That’s the whole point in hydrogen cars. Maintenance is key!
They can't seem to change their manufacturing lines to EVs so why do we think they can do it with Hydrogen? The answer for them will always be (P)HEVs...
The other hand is they lay off the majority of their mechanics. That's lots of mechanics. They could start to build personal tanks americans love guns.
I love my EV. I’m ten years of driving EV’s have saved $30K in fuel cost. That’s how I can afford a Tesla.
What about second hand ev sellling prices,less than the others?
I have a plan too. Not to buy a hydrogen car.
Good plan !! 🐸
They keep doubling down on Betamax when everyone is using VHS.
😂😂😂😂
You’re my age!
They keep doubling down on Betamax when the world is transitioning to streaming....
That's only true if HFCVs are somehow better than EVs..
They keep doubling down on flint when everyone is using bronze
Which one is VHS?
If people think a lithium battery fire is exciting, wait until they see what happens when a hydrogen tank at 5000 psi explodes. 😂. Absolute madness. No way will I ever own a bomb on wheels like that.
10000
The Ukrainians ran out of Toyotas.
10000 when I checked.
Yes; "Road Hindenburgs....".
kPa please
Hydrogen is a joke, you lose 50% in generating the hydrogen, 10% to 15% to compress the hydrogen and 50% in the fuel cell, you also need batteries or Super-Caps to provide acceleration and braking regeneration. You also have the losses to charge and discharge the batteries, another 2% to 3%. A hydrogen car is the least efficient, most complicated, most expensive vehicle that can be made.
so they can fleece the sheep some more
Yes, but the car companies and maybe the oil companies (they can ditch their oil wells and invest in hydrogen production facilities) will be able to maintain their current business infrastructure/model and also do a lot of maintenance on your hydrogen cars like they do on ICE vehicles. EVs are much simpler machines and much cheaper to maintain and they don't want that. If the US and European government can give billions of dollars of bailout money every few years to the legacy automakers, please do your patriotic duty and do the same. The UAW autoworkers are treated like royalty and that needs to continue. DISCLAIMER: this will be demanded of you unless the money is needed to maintain the US empire and all it's weapon needs and the 800 military bases worldwide. That's more important than any domestic needs. Pothole problems are only the concern of the little people.
Add the fact that well above 90% of current world production of H2 is made from natural gas, meaning methane. Which in itself is a absolutely terrible greenhouse gas with 4x the effect of CO2 on the climate. And the methane business is leaking like a fcking sieve..lol. A friend of mine bought a H2 family bus couple years ago. He can fill it up in only 2 places in a city of 3 million, and have to drive for 45min to the closest one. I mean, WTF. How can that EVER be commercially competitive with an EV hooked up to the closest outlet? Old car maffia is scared shitless, and need to do stupid shit like this to fool the stock market a couple of more years. Thats all.
Imagine someone trying to sell you a mobile phone that charges with a gas canister..lol...its that stupid what BMW and Toyota re doing.
Also, no matter how you pack it, hydrogen is incredibly dangerous in any sort of collusion. Worst than gasoline.
Add that to the unavailability of any hydrogen stations in almost if not all countries and places. Buy hydrogen car and then kept it in the garage as souvenirs. 😂😂😂... Expensive toys.
For me, one of the biggest issues with hydrogen is that you never have your independence like you do with a battery EV. With hydrogen you need to use the hydrogen filling stations, whatever the cost, whereas with an EV you can use your solar, home charging and basically anywhere you can plug in a standard 3-pin domestic plug, as the worst possible scenario. You don't have to rely on public charging stations; you have options.
Um you can make hydrogen with a water electrolyzer...
Also pay lots of maintenance money for a more complicated technology.
@@kenw.4539 it's not more complicated
@@HydrogenFuelTechnologies Pray tell how after making hydrogen with a water electrolyzer you put it in the gas tank of your car and what are the cost involved?
@@HydrogenFuelTechnologies I don't know your location, but here in the UK, it is *most* unlikely you'd be permitted to make or manufacture any type of explosive gas or chemical in or on a domestic property.
BMW have just invented Betamax !
Except it's not better in any way
Dont think id be wanting to sit on a 10000 psi pressure vessel in an accident
Unless they tackle the production and dispensing of the fuel, this will not happen. Especially with EV’s getting 300+ miles of range, cost less, and being able to recharge using solar energy.
Indeed. You'll never have the convenience of being able to top up with hydrogen at home, for a fraction of the cost of commercial hydrogen filling points.....
Years ago I personally was a huge fan of BMWs hydrogen car program … then Tesla came out and made EVs practical and affordable … in what universe would ANYONE want a hydrogen car when we have EVs
The ONLY application I could possibly see is for clean super cars for enthusiasts, think Lamborghini, Bugatti, Ferrari … nothing at BMW level and certainly nothing at Toyota level
Just ridiculous to push hydrogen with all of that complexity when we have EV’s with all of the simplicity and convenience and plunging costs
I work as an engineer. How 80% of executives at BMW think "hydrogen is the future" completely eludes me. I am literally lost for words...simply looking at the economics (making the car, paying for the filling station, the cost of the (inefficient) fuel...its completely dead in the water - and yet they can't see it. Maybe they think they can advertise their way around laws of physics ?
... because the Executives aren't Engineers or Scientists. They've been sold a dream by some snake oil salesmen.
This has been going on here in Germany for decades before Tesla was born. I think it's just a usual money grabbing scam. They get funding from the government a.k.a. taxpayer, pretend to work on it, show of a new prototype every couple years, but never deliver because "it's not quite ready for mass production, we need more time and money."
Oh, I think when they get paid enough, they start believing that black is white.
In 2028, the EV would be much improved from what is today. This is an evolving world. No one is waiting so long for a new and untried product.
BMW and Toyota: "Let's build the car that will make us go bankrupt for good."
It's like Kodak saying they are releasing a new type of film lol
In terms of energy balance, it takes 50 units of energy (in whatever form) to create 1 unit of energy (in hydrogen form). This is why mass adoption of hydrogen is uneconomical. Hydrogen will always be needed as a niche solution for numerous special applications. It is insane trying to pitch this niche solution as a general solution to the world. Basic economics will always prevent it.
Hydrogen is produced on an industrial scale via hydrocarbons and is a high demand product used in many industrial processes. Therefore, hydrogen price will be high for a very long time. Prices will drop when green hydrogen is mass produced globally via solar or wind power. Currently, electricity for EVs is produced via renewable energies and hydrocarbons and does not require gas/hydrogen like distribution points. This Toyota and BMW deal is not about delivering cars powered by inexpensive energies which is wanted by people worldwide. They are trying to replicate printer manufacturers, sell the printers at a loss and make money on outrageously expensive ink refills. It will not work, and I hope Toyota and BMW are wise enough to abandon this deal soon.
However, it will ALWAYS be cheaper to charge a battery with electricity and use it directly from a battery. Any other conversions cost efficiency. Why unnecessarily introduce so many middle men into the process? It makes zero sense.
Totoya is so kind to produce these hydrogen bomb cars for Ukraine
Well, at least they will actually be useful, if they keep Putin back just a bit...😀
@@shyvikinglong liv Putin!
Toyota is already being sued in California for the Hydrogen cars they sold there, WTH?!?
Yes I am not getting it . They lied too much already and hydrogen now!!!! For bmw!
Hydrogen cars have been "Right around the corner" for 50 yrs.
150 years that is
😂
I actually still remember that my grandpa told me, he will keep his -25 years old trusty Mercedes Diesel yet "another couple years until Mercedes starts selling their hydrogen car."
That was around the mid 90s!
Indeed they have. I clearly recall General Motors singing the praises of hydrogen back in the 80's......
a friend says "hydrogen is the energy of the future, and will always be"
😂
Don't worry guys, worldwide hydrogen fueling stations for everyone! You get a hydrogen station! And you get a hydrogen station! You over there, you get one too! Everyone gets free hydrogen stations!
And they *all* require an electricity supply.....oh the irony.
1. Hydrogen is more expensive than petrol per km.
2. Hydrogen leakage is costing global warming. In higher atmosphere it prevents Methane from braking down. Methane is over 10 times worse than CO2.
3. Hydrogen fuel stations have tanks with max 180kg Hydrogen at 700 bar. After 2 cars fueling, the tank has to be brought back to 700 bar, taking 30 minutes.
4. Hydrogen stations have to be refilled with a Hydrogen tank truck after 36 cars(around 5kg per car) . Per day it can be filled 2 x, providing Hydrogen for a total of 72 cars per day . . . .
5. Building a Hydrogen station costs about 1.5 million . . . . how many people see that as a good business model?
6. Hydrogen combustion engines will produce Nox . . . very very bad stuf.
Excellent summary.
I am against relying on a single source of technology….we should have choice and hydrogen could provide an alternative for those who don’t want an EV. the mandate is to reduce CO2 emissions from cars and hydrogen does that. All other issues you mentioned can be easily solved…
The point is, that hydrogen would allow the current stakeholders to keep their business model almost 1:1. While a switch to BEVs would mean most would go bankrupt, because they can't change that quickly.
@@allesdurchprobiert That calls for the government to step in and be transparent on the cost benefit for all options. Taxpayers money should not be wasted in the transition to clean, renewable energy. That the Capitalist System!
@@adamiskandar5107 Yes, I totally agree!
toyota muari really Proves hydrogen Failed supremely. Now bmw with Fail! Good riddance!
Mirai?
it's all about controlling your fuel supply. You won't be able to produce your own H2, but anyone can produce their own electricity for their own EV. EF Them. Go independent.
If that's the goal, they will indeed control the fuel supply, but people aren't going to be willing to pay the price, so the demand will trend to zero.
The only way this idiocy can succeed is if governments pay for it, with grants and subsidies. That's just a waste of tax. Find out which politicians support hydrogen, and vote for those that don't.
The oil industry desperately wants hydrogen to succeed, because they need to replace falling sales volumes of gas and diesel....
@@Brian-om2hh Agreed. Further, they might even be hoping Hydrogen gets government-funded, sucking up all the EV subsidy money and charging infrastructure money, AND THEN FAILS. Then, voter interest in supporting EV subsidies will be gone, leaving fossil fuels still dominant.
Hindenburg gas stored at 10000psi was my nope moment....Bought a Tesla.
Yup hydrogen is ridiculous
So this is a vision for 4 years time. Just imagine how much battery development and charging infrastructure will be out there in four long years. By the time these cars reach the market, if they ever do, everyone will expect to be able to charge at home. This is never going to be possible for Hydrogen.
If this is their great vision for the future, my vision is one without these companies existing for long.
It's not just Toyota and BMW. Honda is also committed to the technology. Actually, there are many car, truck, plane, and railway companies researching hydrogen solutions. Many automakers don't believe that BEVs can fully replace all ICE cars and trucks. Thus, hydrogen is the technology being researched post-hybrid era or around the time frame for 2040s and 2050s. Europe in particular has invested so much in gas pipelines and infrastructure over the decades, they are looking for ways to utilize the infrastructure post-nat gas.
They can't reuse that infrastructure for hydrogen, how many times does this have to be said.
existing nat gas pipelines can NOT be used for pure hydrogen transportation. all pipework would have to be re-laid. hydrogen is a scam
That's good news. People complain about the lack of infrastructure for hydrogen, yet there was also a lack of infrastructure for EVs. When hydrogen vehicles reach some acceptable level of critical mass (there are already hydrogen-powered commercial vehicles), the infrastructure will arrive. Let's just make sure this isn't just another scam.
Prediction - BMW and Toyota go the way of the Hindenburg.
Meanwhile, Hydrogen costs 36 to 45 dollars per Kg. Even with Fuel Cells better efficiency than combustion vehicles. The cost per mile driven of a Hydrogen Fuel Cell is equivalent to more than 20 dollar per gallon gasoline.
If you think that is bad, if these companies build a combustion Hydrogen vehicle the cost per mile driven will soar into the dollar plus per mile driven.
Meanwhile, an EV can cost as little as ONE penny per mile driven.
I live on the east coast of US and there is no hydrogen fueling station unless you drive to California. That would be a long drive to get refueled!!!
In Denmark, the 10 hydrogen fuel stations, we had, have just been closed some months ago.
-Fortunately for the Mirai owners (primarily taxi fleet owners), Toyota had the good style and sense to offer to buy them back.
What happened to the (very few) Hyundai Nexo, I have no idea about. Hopefully, the 20-30 owners or so were compensated somehow....
I do not believe BMW actually thinks Hydrogen is the future. They might say otherwise publicly, and maybe even invest - to receive federal money. BMW is highly invested in battery design and they specify their batteries themselves, although they do not have their own factories to mass produce them.
H2 might be usefull for industrial applications. But for vehicles? Not in the past, not now and not never.
*Sigh* "Hydrogen cars in 2028" - no, just no... 😞
With the speed that EVs are improving right now (battery price, range, selection og models etc), 4 years is literally an eternity to use on this technological and commercial dead end.
-Didn't Toyota learn anything from Mirai; the non-seller ?!
I think Toyota is painfully aware how much it costs to manufacture.
BMW: Because Magic Works
Making cars run on hydrogen - it’s as close to magic as it gets!
Although it still uses an electric motor to drive the wheels.....
Toyota will be the next Nokia example nearing end of the decade. Won't be fully gone just no longer number one. It would be smart of them to ramp up relations with BYD electrification over BWM.
Why do they keep flogging the dead horse that is hydrogen? Its so well proven to be a dead end, how can smart people in these companies really think this?!
Hope they will built a lot of them. It will speed up their bankruptcy for sure.
So foolish knowing the Mirai is a complete disaster and many hydrogen fuel stations are CLOSING.
Take off, cant wait.
The class action case is the USA will generate enough publicity for BMW to become....
Who in the $*/ would want to buy a hydrogen car and why? We need to democratize energy not move to another dependency.
I get the feeling that cars with their design and engineering origins from countries that are a demographic time-bombs (i.e. Germany, Japan, Italy etc.) cater to old-school thinking. You've got older workforces and executives who carry on with dinosaur mind-sets. Hence not very innovative and hanging on to nostalgic thinking. But cars that have their origins in places like US, China, France even have a better mix of old and new ways of thinking. If you want to see where the future of EV success will be, it's going to be from the brands originating in these countries.
Hydrogen for a car doesn't make sense, EV is cheaper and safer to run.
Plus you can charge it at home. Try that with hydrogen.....
EVs and EREVs will likely dominate the automotive market by the end of this decade. Hydrogen cars are mostly vaporware. Distributed hydrogen fueling infrastructure is not cost competitive with fossil fuels or electricity. Hydrogen cars have about as much market viability as compressed air cars, but with a much less available fuel.
1st Oh, H2 fool cells. When will it ever end?
The Toyota zeppelin
💣 🔥
By 2028, EV in China, the price will be down by half or more and come with life warranty on the battery with very high density giving min range of 1000km and can be charge 0 to 1000km in 5 minutes. Its over by 2028.
Hydrogen cars are expensive and far less efficient than BEV. So what's the use ?
Big oil could be behind this. They know they'll need a replacement for falling sales volumes of gas and diesel.....
@@Brian-om2hh Making hydrogen with fossil fuels is a nonsense !!
We definitely need more highly explosive vehicles out there😂
🔥🔥🔥Hindenburg 🔥🔥🔥
🤡
woot look at all those hydrogen stations …exploding …
After buying BMW cars for the past 40 years, I will never buy another BMW after this disgusting news. Shame on BMW.
Does Toyota and BMW realize the cost of producing an infrastructure along with the cost of getting past all the obstacles just to build a hydrogen car? I really think they are trying to put people off from buying an EV because they currently can't compete with Tesla and BYD. I hear people continuously saying they think hydrogen powered cars will be available in the very near future. Even if they do look at the cost of fuel when driving a hydrogen car. If they think electric power is expensive wait until they see what a liter of hydrogen cost.
This.. Hydrogen vehicles will be out at scale around the same time as Toyota's miracle batteries - always in the next year or so since 2010.
As a person who majored in chemistry during my college years, I understand hydrogen. The smallest molecule is diatomic hydrogen (H2). Why is that important to know? It's nearly impossible to keep it contained but possible at a high cost. Second, to liquefy hydrogen , you have to bring it down to -423.5° F, and to do that, you have to keep it under extreme pressure. To store it at ambient temperatures, you will need it from 5000 to 10,000 psi to become compressed supercritical hydrogen. Plus, liquid hydrogen is sold by the liter, not gallons. Currently, a gallon of liquid hydrogen is about $16.00. Now, ask yourself where's the nearest hydrogen station? Oh, I forgot, they have a very limited amount of fuel per station to meet the demands of vehicles on the road. currently. There are approximately 52 stations, and they are in California. Shell just closed 7 of their hydrogen stations. Now, tell me there are going to be hydrogen cars available in, say, the near future? Toyota Mirai are currently in a lawsuit against Toyota because essentially, they are large paperweights.
Why laser disc (H2) when you can use blueray (EV) ?
I have watched a number of your videos recently and enjoyed them. EVs are a hot topic and seem to have their lovers and haters and Government/EU policy will no doubt play a big part in what happens going forward globally. I can’t however see what your objection to Hydrogen vehicles is. You said you “hoped this didn’t work out” with regard to BMW, Toyota producing Hydrogen cars and supplying Hydrogen. Why the negativity? Ok people can’t refuel at home as you say but in places like the UK, huge numbers of people won’t ever be able to recharge an EV at home, in an inner city terrace house setting! And let’s face it, going to a fuel station is something the majority of Europeans still do every few days!!
I used to live in Meguro neighborhood in Tokyo, near one of those hydrogen fueling stations which Toyota apparently lobbied the government to build. I saw a car charging there just once every couple of months. Toyota has the worst leadership at this crucial time for EV transition.
What is certain is that this nonsense can't stop the growth of EV.
Are these numptys going to build the three times extra wind turbines to fuel these hydrogen cars 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
They need to remove the tank and go with solid-state hydrogen to make it cost-effective.
Another joke.
@@paulc6766 Maybe not. A campus is being built in Phoniex with the help of chip manufacturers to figure out how to commercialize before South Korea.
I suppose advancements in the technology could still be great for some use cases. There will be a market, but likely not the mainstream global car market
BEV's are fantastic for consumers, but for the legacy car makers, they are bad as far less servicing and less extras to be sold. Then for having to sell hydrogen at their filling stations, so they can charge more and more. Or we just use our homes electric and charge our own car and remove the reliance on other companies.
Great stuff Sam! Best to the fam & efff cancer!
Hydrogen, there is a conversation to be had about it. Imho the conversation is not about Hydrogen and passenger cars.
Bmw currently says not to park it's Hydrogen car in a garage no? Most with a garage can just plug in after buying an ev with minimal cost. Who's cheaply installing a Hydrogen generator and a system to pump up pressure and get it into the vehicle? Are we denying Hydrogen ice emits nox? Yall like nox =b
BMW = Big Money Worry
You should back track where the money to make the hydrogen cars comes from. Country grants? Oil company giving money to create another need?
By then in 2028 - chinese techology in EV would have progressed 5 fold from now. 5K in a single charge and will leave them in the dust.
A hydrogen fuel celled car is the same as an EV... except that instead of getting power from battery packs they're getting power from fuel cells... They are basically building an EV with fuel cells.... Maybe just throw away the fuel cells & fuel tanks & just use battery packs from CATL.. you'll have 600-800km range instead of a 200km from fuel cells
How stupid can you get - building out a whole new fuel distribution infrastructure when every building in the country already has electricity! 😂
Yes, isn't it. And the ironic part is that each hydrogen filling point relies on a supply of *electricity*
And Santa Claus is real... 😂
Skip the fuel cell and run an ice engine with redesigned fuel injectors and fuel regulator. I think it could be a great idea!
Really? Maybe you should research the overall efficiency and complexity of this solution and compare it to BEVS. There are lots of resources that show exactly how bad this is.
So where in the UK are these "masses" of hydrogen cars going to fill up in Britain, with just 11 hydrogen filling points in the whole of the UK?
It could make Hollywood movies REALLY great again!! -- Remember when the Mythbusters cleaned out hardened concrete in a cement truck? Cars wouud make great PUUFH!s!
But it would not get to Hollywood -- even Americans are bright enough to not pursue this, at least after the Nikola mess.
Because hydrogen molecules are so small, it is difficult to contain it in storage and during transport. Leaked hydrogen into the atmosphere will increase other greenhouse gasses, such as methane. So to say that hydrogen is clean partly depends on how it is created and whether you can contain it properly. If it is produced using electricity, it is much more efficient to just use the electricity to charge batteries. Japan is already a world leader in the production and sales of liquified petroleum gas and this move into hydrogen may be linked somehow to this business as well, concerning hydrogen production and their interest with BMW to make hydrogen powered cars.
Sounds like a good plan.Let them go do it and fail.And then we will have a new plan
Consumers will decide, its another alternative to ICE, Hybrid, PHEV, BEV, LPG.
Dont understand the negative vibes around alternatives, isnt that the way forward, different ideas, theories etc.
12 months ago Toyota was doomed, yet still having high sales now that supply has returned.
BEV hold less than 10% of the market with many models on the market. Do they have a place, yes, are they the best, for some yes, for others no. All subjective opinions.
Lets just sit back and enjoy the engineering and devlopment of this industry. How good is it we can choose all these alternatives for our needs brilliant time to be a consumer.
BMW joins Toyota in breaking the laws of physics. The Boeing spaceship team could not contain hydrogen, containing hydrogen is challenging and one of the reasons hydrogen fuel stations have 50% uptime. Cost to fill up $180 for 300 miles of range in California OOPS.
Actually it was helium that Boeing could not contain but hydrogen is worse than helium.
Damn, where can I buy 1? I'm sick of paying $20 to do 300 miles in my ev
@@rogerphelps9939 You are correct
Another German ingenuity.....vw v2
Didn't BMW experimented with hydrogen among the 1st i think in the mid 2000s they had a 7 series, and it had the same problems hydrogen cars have to this day smh
This might work for fleets governments wait and see but a long wait 10 years to see
Keep making videos on hydrogen. It's a good source of entertainment😂
What a ridicules hydrogen in vehicles. Just check the Hydrogen cut out car in BMW headquarter museum 🤯🤯
I would be surprised if Toyota can produce Mirai for under 100k$ per unit.
The Mirai costs around £60k in Britain. Around 30 per year are sold here, almost all to corporate users who have their own hydrogen supply... Hyundai sold just *one* example of their Nexo SUV in Britain during the final quarter of 2019 (pre pandemic). I'll bet the sales staff had one hell of a party. Nobody wants hydrogen cars here.
@Brian-om2hh Such a small unit sales drive the manufacturing price way up, but even if they sold a ton of them they would be expensive to manufacture because it's really hard to automate production of pressure vessels and fuel cells which are made of really expensive metals.
Maybe I am missing something... as I am in the USA but over here basically the only state to have Hydro filling stations is California and from what I understand they aren't very reliable or they are constantly out of fuel... So unless the rest of the world has had a major filling station build out I don't know about these cars don't have their all important infrastructure that must absolutely be in place first before you should ever commit the sin of mass producing cars without places to refill them (plug them in) it's very interesting because as and EV Driver we have been hearing for years the F.U.D. that there is nowhere to charge and you need chargers before people will buy and we can't mass produce yet... and here they are putting the cart before the horse by their own logic. but Sam is right when they see a path to profits (selling you fuel) they will build it funny thing is they could do the same thing with a EV charging network if they really wanted to and I would think cheaper than the other to build out
"So unless the rest of the world has had a major filling station build out".
Well no; we haven't 🙂
At least not in Denmark, where all (10...) hydrogen fuel stations closed some months ago.
Not that much of a catastrophe, really, as the primary owners of the hydrogen vehicles were taxi fleet owners, who were offered a buyback option from Toyota.
What happened to the (very few) Hyundai Nexos, I don't know. Hopefully something similar...
@@shyviking Sounds very similar to the situation here
"Hydrogen is dumb"
Did Elon Musk not say that? I believe he did, and I think he's right.
Hydrogen is stupid for cars.
Who do they think is going to provide the fuelling infrastructure?
They didn't say...... There are just 11 hydrogen filling points here in the UK.....
👍👍
No use. They can produce as much as they want but it won't be as practical, convenient and affordable as EVs. Hydrogen can and might be used in selective areas for selected industries but it won't be used by common people as regular transportation.
EVs adaptation will accelerate even more in the coming days.
Once it gets cheaper and cheaper, EVs will become the mainstream.
Here is the problem with BMW's hydrogen vision. it is too late. Industry will only be able to do a single transition from what everyone is currently using (petrol paradigm) -- and the momentum is towards EVs including the infrastructure and supply chain. Trying to now put Hydrogen into the mix is a distraction -- there won't be enough investment in the supply chain, industrial base and the infrastructure to make it work.
Yeah there was a breakthrough that they could freezee the hydrogen fuel making it greater to transport around safe and put in its container at the gasoline stations .
It has to be frozen or compressed, that's just one of the problems.
So Toyota have finally realised that if they want hydrogen to be the future they should do what Tesla did 10-15 years ago and start to build the infrastructure to go with it. You really couldn't make it up.
BMW is the next VW….financially bankrupt. My car runs on hamsters!! It’s the future!!!
Sunk cost anyone?
BMW is going to fast track going out out business.
You know what makes atom reactors go boom? Yes, hydrogen. How would anyone wants to drive a ticking bomb?
The legacy car companies and maybe the oil companies (they can ditch their oil wells and invest in hydrogen production facilities) really want to maintain their current business infrastructure/model and also be able to do a lot of expensive maintenance on your hydrogen cars like they do on ICE vehicles. EVs are much simpler machines and much cheaper to maintain and they don't want that. If the US and European government can give billions of dollars of bailout money every few years to the legacy automakers, please do your patriotic duty and do the same. The UAW autoworkers are treated like royalty and that needs to continue. DISCLAIMER: this will be demanded of you unless the money is needed to maintain the US empire and all it's weapon needs and the 800 military bases worldwide. That's more important than any domestic needs. Pothole problems are only the concern of the little people.
Hydrogen for passenger cars is a desperate hail mary from legacy autos who can't compete on EVs.
1:01 2018 has been and gone my friend.
In 100 years they will laugh about todays hydrogen idiocracy the same way, as we laugh about the alchemists in the middle age, which tried to make gold from lead.
I switched to BEVs 6,5 years ago and that works super nice for me and my family. Both cars now are BEVs from Kia and Hyundai. We can charge at home and in the houses of our relatives - and fast charging here in Europe is meanwhile super easy - even the Tesla Superchargers are now open for all BEVs of other manufacturers. Hydrogen cars are the bullshit story from the fossil fuel lobbyists, which still want to centrally control the price of energy. But the sun doesnt send an invoice ! Put a PV system on your house and charge your car with it !
BMW must have been talking to Toyota HA HA