MSI Project Zero build / MAG PANO 100L PZ

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  • Опубліковано 25 лис 2024

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  • @qT_p13
    @qT_p13 5 місяців тому +460

    As someone who is into cars as well, seeing clean runs of wires and hoses looks so cool, and being able to mask the clutter shows skill and attention to detail.
    That said, at least there is still the aio and the gpu cable thats showing, so it maintains a pristine look. I just cant get behind the direction the industry seems to want to go in. It seems pointless, and it kind of ruins the aesthetic appeal to me

    • @UnitedAlgorit-el4hy
      @UnitedAlgorit-el4hy 5 місяців тому

      What kind of work on cars do you do? im a car guy myself

    • @thetechdevil-jn1vo
      @thetechdevil-jn1vo 5 місяців тому

      Interesting comment. Never thought someone would want to see the cabling etc !

    • @qT_p13
      @qT_p13 5 місяців тому

      @@thetechdevil-jn1vo lol custom cables are a thing in case you didnt notice mate, as is custom water cooling

    • @qT_p13
      @qT_p13 5 місяців тому

      @@UnitedAlgorit-el4hy i dont work on them as such, but i did the fast and furious bit in my "younger days", and i always appreciate a good custom when i see one lol

    • @hotandcoldrunningwater-hj2mn
      @hotandcoldrunningwater-hj2mn 5 місяців тому

      Yeah I like the custom cables too

  • @kingnimeni904
    @kingnimeni904 5 місяців тому +131

    That's an mesmerising build. Love it 'cause it's white, love it 'cause it's cool, love it, just in love with it. Nice for next builds from now on. Zero it is actually 100%. Thanks for your effort James.

    • @KitGuruTech
      @KitGuruTech  5 місяців тому +1

      Glad you like it!

    • @amdforlife5591
      @amdforlife5591 5 місяців тому

      yeah its a pretty awesome build, even if its intel !

    • @inlovewithmycar7085
      @inlovewithmycar7085 5 місяців тому

      @@amdforlife5591 the definition of the word fanboi ! love it !

    • @MRENA7
      @MRENA7 5 місяців тому

      1

  • @jamey89k83
    @jamey89k83 5 місяців тому +8

    Looks so neat and clean, I wasnt sold on project zero, but this makes me want one now. I hate watching your videos

  • @Nelson-gv1mc
    @Nelson-gv1mc 5 місяців тому +12

    I couldnt get this video to load for some time - glad it did in the end. wow

  • @festerleech4952
    @festerleech4952 5 місяців тому +15

    So glad to see project zero stuff hitting the market now.

    • @PCPro2017
      @PCPro2017 5 місяців тому

      Thinking about a build closer to black Friday and I've not got the patience for tidying cables 😂

    • @Daddycyzxc
      @Daddycyzxc 3 місяці тому

      but the case i see in shop is different. this case is nit release yet?

    • @JB-xm1cs
      @JB-xm1cs Місяць тому

      ​@Daddycyzxc there is a 100l and a 100z case. 2 diff ones

  • @bishopDavis2115
    @bishopDavis2115 5 місяців тому +9

    One of the cleanest builds ive seen , looks like Project Zero works for MSI - now I want to see one for ASUS and Gigabyte - full trifecta of mobo makers

  • @cj_zak1681
    @cj_zak1681 5 місяців тому +96

    Great build as always James, looks amazing. I'd love to see a full review of the case. I can see a couple of minor flaws - a few of the fans seem to be at bit blocked at the intake side. Not a huge deal if you're running low power parts but I can see your CPU temps look like they need all the help they can get

    • @JonathanPilson-mu3rg
      @JonathanPilson-mu3rg 5 місяців тому

      Blocked ? Really. Never noticed that. Well caught !

    • @DarwinBrookes-ss6on
      @DarwinBrookes-ss6on 5 місяців тому

      Good catch never spotted that. Wondering if it will impact real world results.

    • @amdforlife5591
      @amdforlife5591 5 місяців тому

      I dont think it will affect airflow at all

    • @EricDavidson-cx7bz
      @EricDavidson-cx7bz 5 місяців тому

      Funny the thought crossed my mind at various parts of the video, but I think the air flow isnt blocked, not any more than a very tight airfilter mesh would make on flow anyway. Ive tried to look at it from the various angles I can see in the video, but dont think it would be that bad at all in teh real world. I agree, James - it deserves some investigation

  • @jameskane6273
    @jameskane6273 5 місяців тому +7

    Cooling performance looks to be great, very impressive build

  • @FrankLeCross-fo5kr
    @FrankLeCross-fo5kr 5 місяців тому +8

    Oh very tasty build James - top marks for this one !

  • @jeremiahtech3971
    @jeremiahtech3971 5 місяців тому +9

    Some airflow in that case, 3 intakes at bottom, 3 exhaust at top, one at back and front ones as well,. amazing

  • @sandraLopez901-h9g
    @sandraLopez901-h9g 5 місяців тому +9

    I want that motherboard this year, its on my wish list, just waiting to see what comes out of computex first.

  • @SahinUnal-es8in
    @SahinUnal-es8in 5 місяців тому +9

    THE GPU with the riser on full show looks stunning. Such an impressive looking system when its built.

    • @KitGuruTech
      @KitGuruTech  5 місяців тому

      Thanks, I'm glad you like it 😊

  • @billy9245
    @billy9245 5 місяців тому +6

    The RGB in this is very subtle the way you did it for the final part of the timelapse. looks great. Not always a fan of RGB< but I like my mates watercolor setup in his.

  • @Maxverstappenracing-dz3pt
    @Maxverstappenracing-dz3pt 5 місяців тому +9

    White cables. White screws. Nice rgb. Good brackets that you can adjust. And lovely Nylon filters. Great job MSI 🤘🏻

    • @user-uv8qn1br8q
      @user-uv8qn1br8q 5 місяців тому

      Yeah they put a lot of effort into this case. I quite like the front of it. Even though it seems to be not to popular here.

    • @buyingastairwaytoheaven5252
      @buyingastairwaytoheaven5252 5 місяців тому

      I have to agree. Surprised how good the case is. Just not sure about the front of the case. It’s weird

    • @inlovewithmycar7085
      @inlovewithmycar7085 5 місяців тому

      Yes I concur with this

    • @theonlyredspecial
      @theonlyredspecial 5 місяців тому

      Great build 🎉

    • @KitGuruTech
      @KitGuruTech  5 місяців тому +1

      next on your shopping list ?

  • @Hudson234
    @Hudson234 5 місяців тому +4

    Likes the readouts on the fans, thats a pretty smart development.

  • @justinhowe8322
    @justinhowe8322 5 місяців тому +5

    The GPU on the riser, OMG, im in love.

  • @sortingoutthebills-dy6td
    @sortingoutthebills-dy6td 5 місяців тому +9

    Getting a bit sick of build videos, but this is quite exciting to see IMO. ended up looking very futuristic and clean

    • @johnerikson2443
      @johnerikson2443 5 місяців тому

      It’s very nice I agree.

    • @SimonBennett-fw6zq
      @SimonBennett-fw6zq 5 місяців тому

      Could this build BE any more basic? There's clean and there's sparse 😅

  • @marcski07
    @marcski07 5 місяців тому +10

    Petition they make the top panel have a hollow top so we can have push pull configuration. So the free fans are at the top, and the fans you bought like lian li will be inside of the case, like this one, my OCD side cant stand that the fans in aio are different from the case fans. While it is a really beautiful build, It looked a bit off because the fans at aio are not the same as the case fans.

  • @Blake846
    @Blake846 5 місяців тому +5

    That MSI cooler is very pretty.

  • @SvitBit-hw9rr
    @SvitBit-hw9rr 5 місяців тому +3

    Love the dual temperature gauges on that cooler.

  • @anatoliolombardi6030
    @anatoliolombardi6030 5 місяців тому +3

    I love that board, one of the best looking motherboards ive seen - loved the new tomahawk in your computex video too

  • @marco1704
    @marco1704 5 місяців тому +4

    Timelapse was lush. thanks!

    • @KitGuruTech
      @KitGuruTech  5 місяців тому +1

      Glad you liked it!

    • @marco1704
      @marco1704 5 місяців тому

      @@KitGuruTech Welccome!

  • @oliverh1920
    @oliverh1920 5 місяців тому +9

    This or the tomahawk board, still not sure what to do. If I want this one, its a new case for me as well to make use of MSI PZ

  • @futurologist1962
    @futurologist1962 5 місяців тому +10

    James, are you planning on doing any more of those custom builds you did like the AMD Frame one? that was spectacular mate

    • @KitGuruTech
      @KitGuruTech  5 місяців тому +1

      Nothing planned right now....

    • @futurologist1962
      @futurologist1962 5 місяців тому +1

      @@KitGuruTech okay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • @4thofjuly-fk4oq
    @4thofjuly-fk4oq 5 місяців тому +4

    very clean build - not usually a fan of these cases but good showcase of what project zero can do.

  • @RobertWilliams776-c9k
    @RobertWilliams776-c9k 5 місяців тому +9

    Is that motherboard a good buy James? have you played a lot with it yet? what is the bios like? good memory support?

  • @NaveenOfficial94
    @NaveenOfficial94 5 місяців тому +3

    MSI Project Zero in the PANO 100L PZ is 🔥!

  • @emily_dover
    @emily_dover 5 місяців тому +4

    Product looks great 👍

  • @chrismyers6081
    @chrismyers6081 5 місяців тому +4

    Everyone seems to want white cases now, first biege, then black, then white. Thermaltake must have such a wide market of colors wrapped up now

    • @PCPro2017
      @PCPro2017 5 місяців тому +1

      Reality is probably still >80% black

    • @iskconpremi
      @iskconpremi 5 місяців тому

      @@PCPro2017 hmm

  • @pogologo
    @pogologo 5 місяців тому +12

    Hope to see one of this builds from ASUS with their new boards too. Do they not work with you guys anymore after that nonsense years ago?

    • @KitGuruTech
      @KitGuruTech  5 місяців тому

      We dont really work with ASUS anymore no. havent for years.

    • @NaveenOfficial94
      @NaveenOfficial94 5 місяців тому +1

      @@KitGuruTech ❤❤❤

  • @Linuxdistro15-ih8ox
    @Linuxdistro15-ih8ox 5 місяців тому +4

    Best system build ive seen in a long time, this platform looks incredible. My old system is looking worse every day ffs

  • @MelodicMethod
    @MelodicMethod 5 місяців тому +7

    great video, thank you

  • @DigiClever_
    @DigiClever_ 5 місяців тому +11

    MSI love Kitguru, they have good taste :p

  • @harleylover9446
    @harleylover9446 5 місяців тому +3

    That’s a nice looking system James. Always like your attention to detail

    • @KitGuruTech
      @KitGuruTech  5 місяців тому

      Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. 😊

  • @StefanShiak
    @StefanShiak 5 місяців тому +2

    Would love you guys to do a series on delidded water cooled CPUs.

  • @nicola8473
    @nicola8473 5 місяців тому +4

    Whats that first track in the music of the timelapse, love it. very chilled out

  • @lifehacks797
    @lifehacks797 5 місяців тому +2

    Love the clean look of the Project Zero build!

  • @michaeldigtheme2337
    @michaeldigtheme2337 5 місяців тому +1

    Fantastic build you get to use some really nice bits of hardware there.

  • @anthonyward4654
    @anthonyward4654 5 місяців тому

    MSI really expanding their portfolio lately - stunning looking PC that when it was finished. thanks for showing some data, airflow looks great

  • @fletcher3431
    @fletcher3431 5 місяців тому +5

    Shame about the black PSU, did MSI not send you a white one? time to get the spray can out!

  • @kiara9312
    @kiara9312 5 місяців тому +4

    I want this system spec, im just copying the components and will get it all spec’d up soon

  • @Ernest3834
    @Ernest3834 5 місяців тому

    Great job James, just mirroring the sentiment of a lot of people here, lovely build as always

  • @Andrew-ks7zj
    @Andrew-ks7zj 5 місяців тому +6

    How many fans come with that case? 6 or 7 RGB?

  • @Edward001
    @Edward001 5 місяців тому

    I like that case, very good layout and support - weird seeing so many holes in the metal work mind you

  • @JamesYoung24
    @JamesYoung24 5 місяців тому

    Something really relaxing watching James build a PC.

  • @MalTon-ip9us
    @MalTon-ip9us 5 місяців тому

    It’s amazing the amount of provision for solid state drives.

  • @Marbeary
    @Marbeary 5 місяців тому

    The timelapse was great and seeing changing the fan was a great choice having a daisy chain link of fans is a cleaner choice and those screen on fans was a great touch.

  • @jamesjessenden7838
    @jamesjessenden7838 5 місяців тому

    Love that zero decal on the mainboard looks very cool.

    • @KitGuruTech
      @KitGuruTech  5 місяців тому

      Interesting. We see a lot of people don’t like it. Seems like another opinion splitter !

  • @hothardwareforthewin-he4fz
    @hothardwareforthewin-he4fz 5 місяців тому

    Very asmr this Timelapse. Zoned out there. Enjoyed the video guys. Thanks

  • @Simplyswish-xx6wr
    @Simplyswish-xx6wr 5 місяців тому

    that timelapse was so relaxing, great choice of music too

  • @gogopowerrangers6596
    @gogopowerrangers6596 5 місяців тому

    Those rotating and movable brackets are pretty wicked 😮

    • @Necromancerbob-zp7us
      @Necromancerbob-zp7us 5 місяців тому

      Some great ideas inside the case. It’s the front of it I’m not sold on.

  • @JonathanPilson-mu3rg
    @JonathanPilson-mu3rg 5 місяців тому

    wow what a great build james - the thumbnail got me immediately !

  • @LlethanderDrae
    @LlethanderDrae Місяць тому

    Just used this case in a build with a 7950x3d and a horizontally mounted RTX 4090 GAMING X TRIO. Been using it for about 2 months now playing a variety of games like Cyberpunk, FFXIV, and Throne and Liberty, all on the highest graphics settings at QHD resolutions, and the thermals are just fine. I used 3 120mm fans intake on the side and bottom with a MAG Coreliquid E360 AIO and another 120mm fan on the top and back respectively for exhaust.
    In real-world gaming situations I'm seeing thermals for both CPU and GPU even after long multi-hour gaming sessions at generally no higher than 60C, so I have no complaints with the overall cooling performance in this case.

  • @stickyfingers9710
    @stickyfingers9710 5 місяців тому

    Cracking build James as always man

  • @amdforlife5591
    @amdforlife5591 5 місяців тому

    yeah, ill join the fawning masses, thats an amazing looking system build James - one of the cleanest I can remember. I quite like one over at Mr Matt Lees recently too, but this is better

  • @stevens1041
    @stevens1041 Місяць тому

    This build turned out beautiful. I can't wait to make a rear-connector build myself, its a great idea.

  • @iskconpremi
    @iskconpremi 5 місяців тому +1

    I quite like seeing my cables and routing work, I am not sure I am 100 sold on project zero and the other versions of this platform

  • @seriouslyfunnyhumorblogspotjy
    @seriouslyfunnyhumorblogspotjy 5 місяців тому +1

    I really want one of these.

    • @KitGuruTech
      @KitGuruTech  5 місяців тому

      It’s possible ! Save up.

  • @galaxygolden
    @galaxygolden 3 місяці тому

    Exactly the video I was looking for with pretty much all components I was going for. Thank you!

  • @joemarconi8375
    @joemarconi8375 5 місяців тому +1

    Can you do more water cooled GPU blocks please.

  • @Lina-cf6sy
    @Lina-cf6sy 5 місяців тому +2

    Love me a vertical GPU.

  • @elia2235
    @elia2235 5 місяців тому +4

    Have MSI ever jumped on the wood panels bandwagon for cases yet like everyone else seems to be doing?

  • @dreamEnd
    @dreamEnd 5 місяців тому

    I'm not usually into dual chambers and vertical mounts, but that's a very clean build. Nice one.

  • @GrumpyBigZ
    @GrumpyBigZ 3 місяці тому

    This might be the sickest build I've ever seen on YT! I really wanted to see this done with a full ATX MLB since all the other vids were using a micro ATX. This case is even more impressive than the H6. I can't find anything wrong with this. I want one NOW but Microcenter here in Dallas isn't carrying it according to the website. Bravo mate

  • @UnitedAlgorit-el4hy
    @UnitedAlgorit-el4hy 5 місяців тому

    James that is simply stunning my man !

  • @XaggyBoi
    @XaggyBoi 2 місяці тому

    Im tempted to buy the exact same build! super impressive build.

  • @dustinmihalcheon5013
    @dustinmihalcheon5013 2 місяці тому

    I did mine in black with the Lian Li Hydroshift and all TL fans. Looks and runs amazing. ❤ Good to know putting in the vertical mount will be a bit of messing around though. Lol. Great video. 🎉

  • @Austin023
    @Austin023 5 місяців тому

    Project Zero FTW!

  • @bobsmithson8592
    @bobsmithson8592 5 місяців тому

    I love the build. Dream system for me that.

  • @stevewatson6839
    @stevewatson6839 5 місяців тому +112

    A great build... in the wrong case. I'm agin these back connect mobos. There was nothing broke that needed mending imho; and this case is just a dreadful shape as far as I'm concerned. Best dressing of mutton as lamb we'll probably ever see though!

    • @browntrousersforsafety-el2bo
      @browntrousersforsafety-el2bo 5 місяців тому +5

      You don’t like the back connect boards ? 😮

    • @DarwinBrookes-ss6on
      @DarwinBrookes-ss6on 5 місяців тому +1

      I think it’s a good step in a different direction. Variety and all that.

    • @inlovewithmycar7085
      @inlovewithmycar7085 5 місяців тому +2

      The case is a bit weird, but i think project zero has its value - a lot of people have real issues with cable management and struggle, I know, ive seen a lot of them !

    • @Francioslusi-kg6cx
      @Francioslusi-kg6cx 5 місяців тому +6

      Seems a bit narrowminded of a comment IMO. There is a good aesthetic reason for project zero and the other manufacturers options too. Gets rid of a bit of clutter around the front of the motherboard. Surely thats a good thing. should even help airflow around the VRMs too

    • @XaggyBoi
      @XaggyBoi 2 місяці тому

      Shut the fuck up lol, We all want upgrades and varieties of pc hardware to expand this hobby even further! and wdym dont fix that dont need mending😂 how is this a fix? its called a concept and a different design for a more clean looking build.

  • @paalosordoni7932
    @paalosordoni7932 5 місяців тому +1

    Quite a reasonable price for the features.

  • @nicolasjoseph9446
    @nicolasjoseph9446 5 місяців тому +4

    Is the motherboard and case on sale anywhere as a bundle deal?

    • @KitGuruTech
      @KitGuruTech  5 місяців тому +1

      Not yet but the AM5 mATX Project Zero board and PANO M100R case are here.
      www.awd-it.co.uk/msi-project-zero-bundle-mag-pano-m100r-pz-white-case-amd-b650m-project-zero-am5-ddr5-motherboard.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw-O6zBhASEiwAOHeGxf96eY6QAKTGzTD3dq0bWXbwsTd4Sb3tpd4xY-oh5r3SNJXNZbJnbhoC0mMQAvD_BwE&wgp=13527&wgc=1518735&source=webgains&siteid=1518735

    • @nicolasjoseph9446
      @nicolasjoseph9446 5 місяців тому +1

      @@KitGuruTech great!!

  • @ZehraNurdan
    @ZehraNurdan 5 місяців тому

    James, love your builds man, cup of coffee and a tunnocks caramel, im set for this afternoon

  • @kendrickMartinez4238
    @kendrickMartinez4238 5 місяців тому +12

    WIsh you could keep in the noise of the tools in the timelapse, do a proper ASMR video

  • @grayson8414
    @grayson8414 5 місяців тому +8

    I wish the board didnt have the project zero in such big letters tbh, would look a lot better. like the case you reviewed last week, a big ugly black MSI logo in the corner right at the front. Minimise the branding guys, seriously!

  • @powermaster5004
    @powermaster5004 5 місяців тому

    Well this was not something I was expecting today. That case is creative and well thought out. A contrast to that gunrir mess you reviewed last week 🍺

  • @maximilianRodriguez7917
    @maximilianRodriguez7917 5 місяців тому +11

    at least they put in proper white cables and screws, none of this silver and multi tone white garbage ive seen from other companies. MSI dont even specialise in cases either!

  • @LucyME-mo9rl
    @LucyME-mo9rl 5 місяців тому

    This has been a long time coming.

  • @richietwinz6824
    @richietwinz6824 9 днів тому

    This looks almost the same as my new build except I'm using an i7 14700K, an MSI GeForce RTX 4070 Super 12G Gaming X Slim GPU in white, a Corsair iCUE Link Titan 360 RX RGB Liquid CPU Cooler with additional RX 120 fans all in white, 64gb of Corsair Vengeance RGB DDR5 @ 6400MHz and a MAG A850GL PCIE5 PSU in white. The case and motherboard are the same though and I wanted to keep the build to under £2K hence the less powerful CPU and GPU plus I won't be using the rig for gaming but 3D digital artwork.
    Great video, I'll be saving it in my favourites for when I do my build!

  • @giovannipisano1906
    @giovannipisano1906 5 місяців тому +2

    What price is the case in America?

  • @gaeljames6225
    @gaeljames6225 5 місяців тому

    That is a great build James, love the looks and aestheics of the build. How much did this build cost in total, did you work it out? curious!

    • @KitGuruTech
      @KitGuruTech  5 місяців тому

      I didn't work out the cost but a rough estimate would be around £2200 - £2300 I think.

    • @gaeljames6225
      @gaeljames6225 4 місяці тому

      @@KitGuruTech okay!

  • @lucifersheadscarf6988
    @lucifersheadscarf6988 5 місяців тому

    Wow that is stunning ❤

  • @Francioslusi-kg6cx
    @Francioslusi-kg6cx 5 місяців тому

    Well I’m sold on this. After that rather dull case last week. This is a huge step forward

    • @EricDavidson-cx7bz
      @EricDavidson-cx7bz 5 місяців тому

      yes its much better in design. and seems more thought out to me also

  • @DeborahBernal
    @DeborahBernal 5 місяців тому +1

    Would love to have the money to do a build like that.

  • @napoficial7123
    @napoficial7123 5 місяців тому +1

    Very nice 👍

  • @CatherineMitchell-br8dx
    @CatherineMitchell-br8dx 5 місяців тому +1

    What are the benefits of having a dual chamber case? Does it help with cooling?

  • @digitalplayland
    @digitalplayland 5 місяців тому

    Finally. Amazing build!

  • @rufusmctavish1164
    @rufusmctavish1164 5 місяців тому +1

    Hey James after building this - does this platform appeal to you for your own systems? always curious to know how you feel about it all. You were quite diplomatic in the video. Are you sold on Project Zero?

    • @KitGuruTech
      @KitGuruTech  5 місяців тому

      I like the concept of Project Zero / back connect motherboards especially for hiding the fan/RGB/front panel cables etc but I still like custom sleeved power cables matching the system colour theme. I also think other hardware needs to catch up for the completely cable free system, as you still have CPU coolers, fans, graphics cards etc with cables on show.

  • @swampa2
    @swampa2 5 місяців тому

    This is sick

    • @KitGuruTech
      @KitGuruTech  5 місяців тому

      Glad you liked it 👍🏻

  • @CryptoGlows-op1qv
    @CryptoGlows-op1qv 5 місяців тому

    Hope this goes mainstream.

  • @outsidethepyramid
    @outsidethepyramid 2 місяці тому

    14:01 like my Christmas tree had a baby with the back of my washing machine. cool !

  • @babayaga.666-v8x
    @babayaga.666-v8x 5 місяців тому +1

    Really nice case...i think it could be my next chassis......when comes out in Europe?

  • @amandagraphx4508
    @amandagraphx4508 5 місяців тому +2

    Is there going to be a competition for this build as a prize?

  • @FirasAlmakssosi
    @FirasAlmakssosi 2 місяці тому

    Very very nice 🎉 love the Case love the fans love the MoBo very nice Build

  • @Daddycyzxc
    @Daddycyzxc 3 місяці тому

    excited to have that case :D

  • @larwiemcdonnel5322
    @larwiemcdonnel5322 5 місяців тому

    Wow. That’s some build ❤❤❤

  • @katarinarandjelovic8524
    @katarinarandjelovic8524 5 місяців тому

    Really good aesthetic.

  • @mikemarshall2747
    @mikemarshall2747 5 місяців тому +4

    Anyone understand this guys accent? I struggle, but i am slow

  • @dreschaffhausen5693
    @dreschaffhausen5693 5 місяців тому

    Interesting shape don't like that chin at the front though.

  • @MustafaSebahat
    @MustafaSebahat 5 місяців тому

    Dual Chamber cases to me arent very appealing but this PZ build looks great, hard to deny that.