HEAVY ARROWS and DR ASHBY // are you using your Grandpa's arrows?
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- Опубліковано 18 кві 2021
- HEAVY ARROWS and DR ASHBY // are you using your Grandpa's arrows?.. We dive in on all things heavy arrows and Dr. Ashby. This is part of our deep dive into technical archery this year! #ElkShape #Testing #grandpasarrows
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Ok couple key takeaways before the comment sections blows up. 1. We've got love for anybody that is a hunter and/or archer 2. Having a perfectly tuned arrow/bow is paramount 3. Accuracy and confidence means everything 4. The supposed "scientists" of the archery world are still basing their studies on old studies done with traditional archery equipment, where FPS, and Kinetic energy are considerably different than a modern compound setup. 5. At the end of the day you should always do what is in your best interest for your setup.. ABT ... Also as a bonus we've got Aron Snyders take on this same subject that video will be coming.
Appreciate you all.. - Tim & Dan
Why are you guys bothering with kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is a terrible unit of measure to describe an arrows lethality. What makes since to me is momentum. The difference being I want an arrow that will take more force to slow down. Arrows are not bullets. Bullets kill by dumping all that kinetic energy creating that huge shock wave that liquifies the internal organs. That’s why most people say you want to maintain over around 1000 foot pounds of energy. The idea is you don’t want to drop below that because you won’t generate enough shock to kill. An arrow will never generate that much kinetic energy right, so it’s pointless. Arrows kill penetration and hemorrhage. Animals bleed to dead. The more momentum an arrow has the more resistant it is to forced trying to sow it down. That’s what we want as bow hunters. An arrow that shoots as flat as we can that generates the most momentum and penetration. Anyways enough of my ramble.
Structural integrity is paramount. Perfect tuned bow/arrow is 2nd
Anyone using kinetic energy to talk about penetration loses all credibility, for me. Someone please take a physics class. This is like the bodybuilder bro science, but with archery. 😆Anyone that thinks they can beat the drop of a deer/elk also cracks me up. How about you listen to the difference of a light vs heavy arrow flying through the air. Animals jump the sound of the arrow, not the bow, change my mind. The arrow is way louder than today’s bows.
Im sorry, but I can tell how much josh disagrees with the fairy dust rancher.... but I agree 200% with josh, and I HATE his term “adult arrows” like my arrows are kids arrows... yea he might have a following, but he is a joke... plus his laugh is ANNOYING as F***.....
@@matthewkyle2534 kinetic energy is simply referenced to show there is a difference between a trad bow that shoots 170 FPS and a compound bow that shoots 280 FPS with over 2X the Kinetic energy, don't take it for more than it is - tC
The reason Ashby used lower energy set up’s for a lot of his testing was so he could measure penetration differences. There is no measurable data from a pass through. Also broadhead type is not his number one factor. It’s structural integrity #1 and perfect arrow flight #2. Ashby also says you should shoot the heaviest arrow possible that gives you a trajectory you find acceptable, which I think is what you already do.
Well said Alex and #1 and #2 are on point! They are saying Dr. Ashby is only advising to use 600 plus grain arrows and that is not what he saying. Hope they take the time to read it and understand it someday.
I tried to tell them this on the last video. Just click bait to get a conversation started and play on the algorithms. I just can’t help myself and comment anyway. He actually follows the report, but he doesn’t understand the report so he thinks he’s against the report. In all reality he’s shooting the heaviest arrow that allows him a trajectory he is comfortable with, cut on contact fixed blade broadhead, tuning properly, decent FOC. He’s just lacking mass. Which is down on the list some. If you follow all the other suggestions then you’ll be ok in most situations. He’s throwing Troy under the bus a lot. Troy just tries to help the majority of people out bow hunting whitetail with a max 30-35 yard shot with possible crazy shot angles. He wants people to be successful.
@@garrettrowe7917 I agree and gathered where this video was going in the first 6 mins. They already made it clear there was a big misunderstanding in Ashby's research & reports
@@lymanclark5537 exactly dude!
No it’s because it was literally done in the 80s and he was using mainly a recurve. He didn’t have the choice to shoot compounds with anywhere near the KE of today’s bows
Apples and oranges
What?!?!? Dr. Ashby did not say broadhead MA was number one, he said it was number 4. Also, arrow mass is number 6 (unless it contacts bone, and in his reports Dr. Ashby makes a pretty compelling argument why we should build our arrows to challenge bone with a reasonable chance of success). Dr. Ashby did not study compound bows? Compound bows were in all of his studies. Gotta ask, did you even read the Dr. Ashby reports before commenting on them? I also have a very short draw length and do not shoot a 600+ grain arrow for elk. However my warning light goes off whenever I see someone be a casual critic of a guy with the initials "Dr." in front of his name that is so passionate about bowhunting that he spent 20+ years of his life on other continents studying how arrows penetrate things. Dan, I love your channel, I am an avid follower, thank you for your channel, it makes me a better bowhunter, but I think you missed it on this one.
He also, got bowhunting legalized in Africa. I don't think JJ's read the Report. Whether compound or trad bow. The same rules apply at impact. I tell ya' allot of these people have never seen a slo-mo video of 'Impact Paradox'.
To be fair to the UA-camr that you guys are referencing, he harps on the importance of a perfect bow tune and arrow flight for penetration a lot.
Yeah certainly.. we've got love for anybody that promotes archery 🤘 - TC
He also states that it doesn’t need to be 650. He also states for elk he believes 450-550 is a good sweet spot. Also he harps on a trajectory you can handle or feel comfortable shooting. Just like another arrow system maker states he wants to be 450-550 for speed and trajectory.
@@ElkShape you say that in the comments but the video seems to say the opposite, especially since it’s obvious you haven’t looked into the opposing side very far
RF is shooting hogs at under 20 yards, under a feeder. So that piece of rebar he’s shooting works for him.
I don't know if/how much you guys watch other channels, but one of my favorite videos regarding the Ashby studies is from Average Jack where he's actually breaking down the actual report. The most important part (per the actual study) is perfect arrow flight. There is also a line in the actual report which states that the ideal setup is the heaviest arrow that still maintains acceptable trajectory for you. Having F.O.C. is only part of the picture (as I feel like everyone pretty well understands).
Anyhow, as someone relatively new to the sport, love the content, especially the educational stuff with MFJJ. Thanks guys!
Dr. Ashby put out "12 Factors of Penetration"
I used to be on the fence in regards to this heavy arrow concept but, after listening to the both of you, I now believe the heavier arrow is probably better
I'm not sure what they are talking about when it comes to arrow drop. They are assuming that a heavy arrow drops as much as a light one at distance. Which is just isn't the case. Heavy arrows are a lot more consistent. Also, I don't understand tuning cams of the bow to match some super light arrow. It would be like bending a barrel of a gun to account for poor bullet flight path...sure it can work, but only at predetermined distances. I guess in real life guys don't bend barrels but they can't their shots, which only works for exact distances.
@@VitalyMacktheir is a point of diminishing returns.
A heavier arrow is better physics prove it I don’t care about anyone else’s thoughts or feelings. Proof had been proven
@@Bruderoutdoors like I said, their is a point in which an arrow is too heavy and slow. As long as your arrow speed is above 260 fps your in good shape. Personally I like to shoot as heavy an arrow as I can push at or above 270 fps. But that’s just me.
@matthewkyle6939 yeah sure. But these light arrows are really best suited for completion level archers with great access to game lands...oh and plenty of free time or access to hunting guides.
The Ashby Foundation had 197 consecutive heavy bone breaks with only 3% of those shots coming from a compound bow, and the majority of the shots from a 40# recurve. If you follow their advice, you can shoot through the shoulder.
They now have a 2021 Cape Buffalo report with compounds on their website under "Supplemental Reports" - "Case Study - Cape Buffalo" .
Kinetic energy at launch is basically the same no matter what arrow weight you have. Heavy, higher foc arrows will retain more energy downrange and have more momentum built in due to the added mass.
Structural integrity and perfect arrow flight are number 1 and 2, and most important, in Ashby's terminal arrow performance report. A lot of people get hung up on number 3 which is FOC. Josh, love ya dude, but there is no such thing as overkill.
dead right
Maybe if you blow through the animal, the earth, and get charged with the Murder of somebody in China When it exits on the other side of the earth but until then yeah you’re right
By the way I don’t just believe this in archery I hunt deer with a 300 WSM
There is such a thing as overkill when you are talking about a situation with multiple factors like desiring a pass through first but also wanting to keep as flat of a trajectory as possible after achieving a pass through. I believe what Josh is saying is that he desires a pass through, and is able to achieve that with an arrow that happens to be around 420 grains. He also desires as flat of a trajectory as possible while still maintaining a pass through. If he can achieve a pass through with a 420 grain arrow, then there is no reason to shoot a heavier arrow but rather take the benefits of the lighter arrow when it comes to trajectory. You can't get a better pass through. It is a yes/no equation. So a pass through with a lighter arrow and flatter trajectory is better than a pass through with a heavier arrow and more arch in the trajectory.
@@chasewaybright8766 Cute, maybe you hit a ball joint, Humorous, both scapulas or spine? I want an arrow that would still penetrate 500gr/ 550gr+ RF recommend on Whitetail.
17ms difference at 60# weight 31" draw at 50 yards between 420 and 500 grain arrow.
Not worth dropping the weight for that little time.
Keep the weight and the momentum if you can manage the amount of drop at your maximum comfortable range, time of flight is almost not worth thinking about within reason.
I love waking up to ElkShape Monday mornings it gets me motivated for the week. Now its time for range, and gym time. Gotta get ready to smoke my elk in December!
Okay you guys are basically obsessed with disproving Ashby and Ranch Fairy....really?
I mean their obsessed with disproving them, sooooo your point. Why it cool for one group to do something but not the other way around.
Although I personally agree with about 90% of what RF and Ashby say, here in North America with a compound bow you don't need it. John Dudley just did a few videos a out this and I dont know about you but a world class archer like legit world class been on team usa and stoped competing when they move the tournament into elk season cause he wasn't going to give up elk hunting, I mean really what team was RF and Ashby on?
Yes if your in Africa yes shot a 650gr+ arrow, there's pros and cons to everything. I dont disprove them and either are they saying that, their simply bringing up valid points.
How many years have RF ran an archery shop?, MFJJ has worked in on and/or owned one for 90% of his life bud.
Yes if your pulling 50# and under with a short draw length Yes shot a 600gr arrow.
I listen to a few archers on here and yes RF is even one of them I like everything but the 600+ grain arrow, the perfect arrow flight, structural integrity and so on, the 650+ is step 12 the very last step and means nothing of the other 11 isn't on. Now with those 11 and today's bow capabilities you don't need 650gr. That all their saying, I shot a 436 with a fixed and it will zip through anything here in North America period
Next I want a video on walk back tuning, and why it works.
Excessive energy and over kill are two things that don't exist when you're trying to take something's life with a bow. Accurate, lethal and strong are what I'm looking for. The Doppler radar proved the energy at the bow is useless! When arrows over 600 grains hit with more retained energy at 60 yds then the light arrow left the bow with. Your speed and energy erosion is terrible on the light arrow at distance. Great videos as always. Both very knowledgeable archers.
Thank you. Your exactly right. It depends on what your shooting as to your set up I mostly shoot dense woods white tail ,boar so I run a 650 grain 29% foc 28in draw I'm flying at 250 fps. but with that said I will not shoot beyond 40 yds in fact all of my kills are 20 and in from a ground blind ezv ranges for me. But if I'm going to Colorado or Wyoming for mule deer or elk antelope then I'll run 450 grains at 290 fps it's all about perspective on where and what your hunting.
Fuckin A right this dude gets it.
You’ll regret that decision on elk when you hit bone.
@@justinreynolds3167 Possibly. But, Elk & Mule deer seem to be stupid when shot at. Like Whitetail deer & hogs. But, hey look at the range & numbers of Whitetail & pigs. Whitetail can be found way up in Canada to Peru east & western USA & Canada. In many states pigs are at the eradication stage/level. Elk can be found in a few states in the east. Numbers are doing well but, kinda small.
Awesome, buddy and I drew 1st bow elk in the Gila, NM. Quitting job Thursday to scout full time (gotta get your priorities right). Friday will be at pro shop for final tuning. Still tweaking arrow and this vid helps so much. Thank You!! Soooo amped!!!
Iam just a whitetail hunter here in Iowa. But I love your channel and the information you guys provide. THANK YOU.
I shoot a similar set up you guys are describing but on whitetails only not elk but I blow threw everything with it using under a 400 grain arrow. My bow is tuned and it hits hard. Thanks for sharing your experiences with this. Like you said it's not just one thing. It's a combination of things. I've been bow hunting since the early 70s and the setup I have now is the best Ive ever used for whitetails.
"I am not convinced that you can shoot an elk through the shoulder with anything”
My 300 point weight arrow says otherwise.
Yep happens all the time
Same basic principles apply to all setups. Momentum gives you penetration not KE. Traditional bows prove that.
Which implies momentum is a product of mass, not speed, right? That is something trad guys just naturally rely on.
@@colfaxmingo momentum in simple terms is mass*velocity. KE in 1/2*mass*velocity^2. So for the KE, velocity is more important. For momentum, both are equally important.
@@colfaxmingo Momentum is force vectored.
Anyone that watches this I recommend watch all of ranch fairy’s videos about penetration and foc after this. And Ashby said multiple things were more important that the shape of the broad head lol
You are right on that and I have personally ashby‘s suggestions for maximum penetration and honestly I would say that the broad head is probably the most important part along with overall mass weight but you can certainly get away with a relatively low weight arrow shooting these kinds of broad heads at the end of the day everybody’s free to their own opinions I just wish we could all agree that rage also known as the king of the flappers sucks except for the 25% of the time that they work like magic
Ranch fairy is a clown. No thanks. I will listen to elk hunter about elk hunting, not a pig hunter.
@@matthewkyle2534 exactly!
@@chasewaybright8766 I agree.
Question: Has MFJJ done a video of his exact arrow build? He has the same specs as me, 70lbs at 30”. I build and fletch my own arrows but I have trouble building an arrow with foc in the range you guys promote (13-15%) that is lighter than 500 grains that actually tunes well for me. Love the videos.
I’d love to know what arrows he is using, i don’t know of any that are a light enough gpi to give you that weight when he is running 160gr up front and a lighted nock. He has to have an arrow around 7gpi for that and I would think it would then be underspined to add 160 to the front at that point. That’s a video I hope he will do now that he’s growing his channel
Love this discussion!! Great work guys!
All of Ashby's testing results are based on what the ARROW does after it leaves the bow. Not what bow it was shot from. A couple guys that have killed a few big game animals in comparison to a man that conducted years of studies on the subject of penetration and lethal arrows on hundreds of animals are now trying to debunk his results. Ashby and Troy Fowler both tell you to shoot the best arrow you can for strength, arrow flight and penetration. The over 600 grain arrows are only talked about when the need for breaking bones on large game is of interest or needed. You are not even telling what is correct in Ashby's reports. If a 500 grain arrow or 450 grain arrow is what shoots best for you then shoot it but "follow the steps" for the best arrow build. I guess traditional hunters should only hunt in the East because they can't shoot 70 yards "Out West" or can they with a 250 grain total arrow weight....makes sense right?
As per the Ashby site the SUGGESTED arrow weight for white tail is 600, though it says 400 is acceptable.
Thanks Guys.
Really good talk, I enjoyed how Josh breaks the Subject of FoC down.
Makes one think differently, thanks.
Love this vids and that y'all are attempting to address the topic. No hate just some points to consider. The first part of your arrow drop video was with arrows that were under spined according to the heavy FOC approach so not exactly a fair test of arrow drop as stiffness is what helps trajectory. In this video most of your points are anecdotal and the points you are attempting to counter are not complete represented accurately. Still enjoyed the vid and convo. Oh also your points for arrow drop were about trajectory at 40 to 60 yards. How often have you taken shots on Elk at those distances? Loving the convo, really hoping y'all get the Ranch Fairy on here for some discussion.
Haven’t watched the whole thing but man, would critics of heavy arrows please stop talking about KE? No one over here is taking about that. We are talking about momentum (the ability of the arrow to keep going despite braking forces) not KE. Momentum is waaaaay more dependant on weight than speed.
They can’t talk about that because then they would have to agree that it works
These conversations are very helpful. Thanks, guys.
Totally agree with you guys! I'm in the 430 range this year.
thank you for the great video. In your opinion, what is the threshold for minimum arrow weight, wherein the arrow is less likely to fail because it is too light? Is it 420 grains or somewhere less than that?
yes! find what works for you. all this is knowledge and advice, ABT. thank you fellas.
ABT
Thank you guys for this video
Love the breakdown- In our neck of the woods A BALANCED approach is the best solution. 420gr to 460gr total package will get pass thru on all, provided I dont hit offside shoulder on Elk. Offside on deer and bear, Blowin thru!! Finding best all around performance for you, your bow, and application is most important. I hunt same species, same general areas as Elk Shape and Podium and SVA has never steered me wrong- So, Im goin with these guys cuz it works (well)!!
You guys are awesome I get so much information from you. I'm 61 years I shoot a Mathews z7 at 65lbs. With vap tko. 400 grains.
Very good video. My own experience moving from 430 grains to 500 was that my bow was quieter and more importantly my arrows stopped breaking and taking hook turns in whitetail deer. I’m only drawing 29” on a Mathews VXR 31.5 @70# so I guess im sacrificing some speed. But all I hear these days is speed is overrated.
Your arrow was taking hook turns because you fail to bare shaft tune your arrows.
Was waiting for this one!!
For me between 644 and 444 grain arrow there is 7 inches difference at 40 yards
Great info! And good job putting MFJJ on the spot! So, now at 64 years old I can no longer shoot a 70lb bow comfortably and consistently. I shoot a 60lb bow and a draw length of 27 inches. My arrow set up is an Easton Axis Match with 50gr HIT insert and a 100gr Iron Will with an impact collar. Your thoughts?
So, I'm a newbie bow hunter. When putting together an arrow is there a significant difference in broadhead weight vs using a weighted insert in regards to achieving your FOC percentage?
Awesome video guys!
Could you test the same by increasing arrow weight without changing the FOC? Will the trajectory drop as much with same FOC across different weights
The other day I saw one of your videos where you ask MFJJ if he nock tunes his arrows and neither if you knew what nock tuning was. nock tuning is synonymous with spine indexing so that the stiff side of the arrow is lined up with the nock, do ya’ll worry with spine indexing or do you just throw the nock in the arrow, fletch it, and send it
Is your FOC measurement the AMO standard or the gold tip calculator? I think there’s about 2% difference between the two FOC measuring formulas. I’m curious because I want to try mfjj’s 15% FOC recommendation because that sounds like a good medium between light and heavy arrows for my long draw length.
That's the same FOC I strive for. Currently launching 595grains arrows, although I may take the lighted nocks out to bring it down to 570 grains. As I really like the flight characteristics of 550 grain arrows. I shot 450grains and that was like a laser beam out to 100yds. Was crazy how fast it was and flatter trajectory. Kind of miss that setup.
Thank you for this video!!
I like to cut my arrows to 28 inches. I have a hard time getting 14-15 percent FOC and not having an arrow over 500 grains. Any recommendations?
Maybe look into 300 spine pure carbon arrow with 50 grain insert and 100 grain broadhead. You should be more in that 440 grain area and get into that % range or close to it
My set up is 425 grain set up at 295 feet per second and still had an antelope jump my arrow last year at 60 yards yet drilled a mule deer at 54 yards and had a pass thru. Find what works for you! Also had pass thrus on elk too. Also shoot, shoot, and shoot. I hate seeing people start shooting 2 weeks before hunting season starts. Also be prepared to see more people bow hunting this year because of the lack of ammo.
That's why I'm getting my second bow today. I can shoot shoot shoot
Yeah, Elk & Mule deer seem to stand there & watch the arrow hit them. I guess Pronghorn are like Whitetails & & pigs.
@@timl8302 antelope will jump your string. They also have really good eye sight. They also usually live in wide open areas. Getting close to an antelope is hard, getting close is usually 30-40 yards. I’ve been archery hunting in Wyoming for 9 years still haven’t gotten one
Wonderful video! What brand and model of arrow would you recommend or suggest? Thank you. And can I order from you
What is MFJJ's arrow length and spine on a 420 set up?
I agree!! I shot 425 grain and I'm shooting deer, bear moose and elk and always get a pass through unless I hit off side shoulder! Even on the moose
I love this video!! I killed my bull with a 420 grain arrow at 25 yards last year with a 70# bow and had a complete pass through. this year I've decided to go a little heavier since I'm pulling more weight so we will see if I keep it that way or not. Love starting my week of with your videos!!
Am glad you guys are still doing this. I seen one with a different shop and I thought you guy divorced. Always good info.
More to come!
The market/media makes it seem like you need a super bow I’m 15 have a 27in draw length with a cheap 45lb bow. Got a clean pass through on a whitetail with a 350gr arrow.
MFJJ am I ok with a 300 spine with 150-175 grains in the front at a 27 inch draw at 65lbs? Or should I shoot a 250?
Great info!!!!
i'm trying to figure out how 420g arrows are safe to shoot on a 30" draw and 15% FOC. Whats that combo? I felt using axis 340s was underspined with 10% FOC and weighed in at 410g
Everybody is trying to figure that out. Wonder why they don't show this arrow build? After all, what Ashby and Todd emphasize way more than overall arrow mass, is FOC, weight up front.
What speed does mfjj recommend to stay within?
Awsome video, I think it’s just preference and what your strong points as a hunter are.. I shoot a 80 pound pse, my arrow weight is 580 grain flying at 265, my bow is quiet and tuning is a breeze. My draw length is only 27 inches. I can shoot out to a 100 yards really accurate with vpa broadheads and Daysix and iron wills.I am not saying a 400 grain arrow won’t get the job done, but if I am happy with my speed, and the arrow tunes awesome why not shoot a heavy arrow. I have shot mule deer in Az and broke the knuckle and the onside shoulder and never found the arrow. Not saying I 400 grain arrow won’t do that, but I don’t want to chance it..
One thing people sometime forget is that some bows will have sweet spots for arrow weight and noise. Some bows need heavier arrows than others to be quieter. Also a slower arrow means less noise from vanes and broadhead etc. It's just all about where you draw the line. I do like speed though.
Awesome info guys! Really appreciate the logical and scientific based explanation!
Question, how would these arrows handle bigger and tougher game animals?? In my experience heavier arrows and fixed blade heads I’ve had no trouble losing game’ from soft game animals such as deer, goats, foxes, hares, rabbits etc, and same with thicker skin animals such as pigs etc, but it comes with a well tuned bow and the right arrow shot placement and most of important is practicing with broadheads
I’m currently shooting 712 grains out of my longbow. I have a max of 30 yards for a shot that I’ll take on a live animal.
Sweet.. Thanks for sharing...
Great info. Thank you.
I just have to point to the 3:21 mark of the video. Dan's face when hearing "2 inch mechanical" is priceless. Now back to the subject of the video. I've been watching a lot of videos on what, people smarter than me suggest, the "Proper" arrow setup is. From super light (under 400gr) to super heavy (over 600gr). And I've come to the conclusion that, being somewhere around the middle 400's, is probably the best. For me. Provided you have a bow that is in spec and in tune. With the correct broadhead, arrow stiffness, and around 15% FOC. I'm at a 30 inch draw length and around 60lb draw weight on my Bear Legit. And a GT Hunter XT 340 cut to 28.25 inches coming in at 469gr is a sweet spot for me. 125gr Stinger Buzzcut 4 blade broadhead with a 50gr insert up front. With Blazer vanes in a 3 fletch max left helical and a Nocturnal lighted nock on the back end. This is for whitetail deer only. I may be switching to a .204 diameter arrow after this season. Shoot for about 450gr with 18 ish FOC.
Just added podium archery to my subscriptions! I recently got a used bow setup that comes with 340 and 400 grain arrows. What would you recommend in terms of total weight, tip selection, and FOC for a hog hunting set up? The bow is 29 1/2in @65lbs with IBO of 325. Thanks! #BALLINONABUDGET
So I have a question I’m 6.4’ with a 30in dl and 72dw I currently am shooting Easton axis 5mm 548gr 300 spine. Is my arrow to heavy. Shooting the v3x 29
Josh knows about archery glad I found you guys on the tube ...Josh aka Archery wizard..,
he's the G
So, would a stiffer spine (say a 300) and a broadhead around 150-200 with a TAW near 500 be better than a 400 spine with The same TAW?Since the stiffer spine at impact will not wobble like the 400 spine will with a 150-200 grain broadhead?
The more weight you put up front and/or the more pounds you pull the stiffer spine you will need. It’s not about impact, it’s about the arrow at launch. If the spine is too weak the arrow will not be accurate. The same for if it’s too stiff. You can get close to the correct spine with online spine calculators. Good luck and have fun shooting.
BRING ELK SHAPE TO LOUISIANA/MISSISSIPPI/ALABAMA/FLORIDA! The good ole boys will travel for elk. For someone like myself not knowing anything about elk hunting, I’d get a lot out of your camp. Hope to see y’all down here one day!
So when your talking weight of arrows is that with or without broadhead weight
total arrow weight (broadhead included)
What up archers? Dan Staton here from ElkShape - I don't have a ton of time to comb through all the comments, but we always appreciate the support and thoughtful CONVERSATION ... This was not a DISSERTATION on our part. All my "anecdotal" narrative is just from my experience killing a lot of bulls in the last 14 seasons, I have been bowhunting for 19 seasons. That's not to impress you, but to impress upon you that I have a lot of reps elk hunting with bow tackle. I don't care what you shoot or what arrow you use. You don't have to care what I use or shoot. If you want a public platform to showcase your opinions, make your own UA-cam Channel - it's free to do!
I respect MFJJ's opinions and RF's opinions, it doesn't matter if we all agree either...cuz we don't! Lastly, key takeaways are - do what's best for you and your style of hunting... choose what gives you the most confidence. Accuracy is supreme, but we don't live in a perfect world. Heavy is good, expansive arrow trajectory is challenging for out West applications like elk hunting. I prefer FIXED broadheads based on experience but you do you! On the last video (Part 1) - we said on the video that we understood that spine could make the results vary but remember my arrows are stiff as I cut them ridiculously short. Again, thanks for tuning in and stay tuned for an Aron Snyder interview that will address this topic from a guy who kills more animals than anyone else I know. -Dan
Kudos to both you and MFJJ for putting yourselves out there. The one point I wish y’all would have addressed is structural integrity. Since Josh shoots light weight arrows, I’d love to know how they hold up on impact. Here’s hoping he puts out a hunting arrow build this year.
Appreciate you Dan. I disagree with others, but want to hear their opinions so I don’t just sit in an echo chamber. Shooting 70lbs, 27.5” DL, 28.5” shaft, 550gr TAW, 200gr VPA COC fixed 3 blade, and 50gr insert. 18% FOC and shooting great out of my bow. Not planning to shoot deer/elk/pronghorn here in AZ past 35yds. Animals move at the last second even at short distances, I’d like a good chance of killing them still if they move right when I release.
From what I have heard from the other guy you are referencing your opinions are actually not all that different. He even tells people to shoot a lighter arrow if it flies better. I think he even did a video telling people not to get caught up on the 600 grain arrow saga, maybe reach out to him and just have a discussion video. I think balance is where it is at myself.
@@ThatJamesGuy88 I know what ya mean - one year I tried some lighter stuff (relative) on spring bear, they got the job done but they broke ... I had 2 bear tags filled and 2 broken arrows.
I've been playing around with the foc thing. And have decided an Easton axis 340 with 50 grains of brass and 125 head . My draw at 26.5 and around 60 pounds of draw currently. Tried a 500 grain arrow in comparison with the axis. Surprisingly the axis out penetrate the heavier one . Used a new block target. Finshed weight of the axis was close to 450. So alot of what ur saying i find to be true
"Over kill" and bow hunting, not really sure those two terms can be used together accurately. And no one promotes building a heavy arrow "blindly". You two actually promote the same principles as the RF. Your mixing up the message between heavy arrows and high FOC. You both have high FOC arrows ~15%. The Extreme and Ultra FOC builds are different. This would have been better if you talked about treestand/whitetail hunters having arrow builds for out west and how to get high FOC builds with lower TAW and the trajectory benefits.
I feel like you haven’t watched much of the ranch fairy’s videos, he preaches proper arrow flight first before heavy arrows. I totally get the trajectory argument though, I’m building a lighter arrow for antelope this fall.
Yes.. you bet. This is just practical in the field experience talk for elk hunting. - TC
@@ElkShape obviously you don’t know Shannon mobs or Corey Ford....
Last bull... 50 yards, expandable broadhead, clean pass through plus 20-30 more feet of arrow flight, 375 grain arrow. 70 lbs, 29”
Good video. One thing, with regard to the Ashby stuff, that never seems to get talked about is shaft diameter. I'm pretty sure most of the research was done with a tapered 23/64th hardwood shaft. That's a wholly different animal than a micro diameter carbon with a ballistic collar when it comes to penetration. There is a major difference in the surface area of a larger shaft and the amount of drag that it puts on the arrow. Yes, tapering helps on bone but not really on soft tissue. Personally, I'm a trad guy, and I shoot both wood and carbon arrows. I can say for a fact that to get the level of penetration I see with something like a blackeagle instinct shaft at 550-580gr, I need to shoot a 650gr + woodshaft, and even then it's iffy. Of course, you don't shoot wood shafts because they work better, but that's a different discussion. All that being said, I think if the discussion about FOC and weight gets more people to actually think about tuning their gear, then it's a good thing.
Shaft profile is rule #8: Yes, tapered =1, Parallel = 2nd .Barrel =3rd... I understand. I haven't gone out of my way to find a tapered shaft either.
Ashby's Rule #5 "There is a substantial INCREASE in penetration when the shaft of an arrow is at least 5% smaller in diameter than the back of the broadhead’s ferrule. Likewise, there is a substantial LOSS in penetration when the shaft diameter is larger than the back of the broadhead’s ferrule."...... Which really appeals to those that shoot the .166s & .204s. I can see that.
Try reading his 12 Rule of Penetration. Many/maybe 1/2 you might agree with. His reports are sometimes long & physics heavy. They go into the 2000s years (Not just the 1998 Natal Study). His foundation has a 2021 Cape Buffalo Report [Using Compound Bows]. It's under 'Supplemental Reports'..
www.ashbybowhunting.org/ashby-reports
www.ashbybowhunting.org/12-arrow-penetration-factors (DSC Links don't work: Correct link: www.biggame.org/?s=ashby)
My draw length at 25in has me shooting 406gn at 60lbs. Id love to hunt elk with bow but not sure if my setup would be enough
Native Americans killed elk with a wooden bow and wooden arrow. Your bow is plenty powerful to kill anything in North America my friend. Shot placement. Get in close and out the arrow in the vitals, avoid bone. Golden.
Absolutely agree! I have had this argument so many times it's mind numbing. It's funny how you can see how important the arrow actually is and it also shows how much hype is in bows we shoot today. If ur gonna shoot a 600 grain arrow like all the aluminum arrows we shot when I was a kid, you will still only shoot as fast as we did 20+ years ago and you negate the advancement in arrow materials which allow you to shoot lighter, faster and yes- stronger! Flat trajectory wins! I'm in AZ and I dont even run a 20 yard pin cuz everything is at distance. Nice video guys! Love the content!
I also live in AZ I have a 20 yard pin but only because of rabbits lol
You do know lighter faster arrows shed velocity & energy faster than heavier arrows ( physics of Drag). Also, the difference between the impact of a 400gr arrow & a 600gr arrow at 60yrs is .1 seconds. In Radar testing A 388gr arrow lost -35fps & 616gr arrow lost -17fps. / KE 388gr went from around 74 -58ft-lbs & 610gr= -78 to 68ft-lbs . Those aluminum arrows also got more pass troughs & penetration too.
The Fairy is correct. Heavy is key.
What calculator are you using?
the way i see it, around 280fps is about the max speed that fixed blades fly well at, so i'm aiming for that speed for trajectory. By drawing 75lbs at 29.5 inch draw length, the arrow setup that got me the closest to that speed is 560grns @275fps.
Great video i always enjoy hearing the wide range of opinions on this topic. I wish more people would focus on being proficient with whatever set up they choose. Keep in mind were all trying to find the perfect arrow cocktail for our game but in reality none of that matters if you suck and cant execute a controlled shot when it matters.
Something I struggle with is deciding where I should be at shooting 60 lbs with a 29 inch draw is it better to be around 500 total weight or go a little lighter
When are we going to drop kinetic energy and use momentum in archery
Well, I wonder how Chuck Adams was so successful with such slow recurves and early compounds then? Must have been the ultimate Ninja, yeah baby!
Hearing about the 3-1 broadhead ratio reminds me of the Cutthroat broadheads. The shop I go to is Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear in Denver and they designed those heads. I would love to hear both of you pick their brain sometime. Especially because Rocky Mountain Specialty Gear is heavy recurve but also compound. Most of the guys there hunt both but prefer to recurve.
Thank you for the breakdown! Brain sponged it all.
Great video!!!
I’ve been going down this exact rabbit hole for weeks. This helps tremendously. Thank you team Elk Shape.
I feel like people like to forget that once the arrow is in flight (perfect flight) it doesn’t know what type of bow shot it. It has its speed and it’s weight and that’s it. You can calculate the kinetic energy with those numbers or the momentum and it’s doesn’t matter which. When the arrow hits the animal, it will do the job or it won’t.
Light/fast arrow people always say the same thing…” it works IF you hit what you’re aiming at, accuracy is key.” And, heavy/slow arrow people always say, “animals move, you need an arrow that will perform if it hits something unplanned (i.e., a heavy bone)”.
The Ranch Fairy puts it best. If you can put that arrow through soft tissue every time, shoot whatever you want. If you think the animal has a vote, think about an arrow set up that will perform under pan B scenarios.
So what’s your skill level/philosophy? Are you a frickin’ laser that hits exactly what you’re aiming at every time? Or do you think the animal can change your shot every time?
P.S. - FMJJ sounds like he could use a refreshing on the rankings of Ashby’s 12 factors. Also, Ashby’s data on penetration of heavy bones is pretty thoroughly documented. I don’t think we have to “believe” in whether arrows can penetrate elk shoulders or not. They can, if you have a 12 factor arrow. It’s been documented.
Thanks for making this video guys. UA-cam has blown up with heavy arrow vids and its good to see the other side. of the coin. Im in the process of building a lighter arrow setup. Im currently shooting a 535 gr arrow and I'm building an arrow closer to 440 gr. This gives me confidence in what I'm doing because I'm trying to get that flatter trajectory. Im only shooting 60 lbs and with a 30" draw length it hard to keep my arrow weight low enough to maintain speed.
nice work!
Neither one of you are what I would consider average. Josh has a longer than average draw. Dan is short however shoots a higher draw weight than average. I like to listen to everyone's opinions. Personally I think the Ranch Fairy has done a ton for modern day bow hunters. If nothing else he has made people think about their arrow set ups and how well tuned the bow is. What about Structural integrity? Lighter arrows also shed velocity faster than a heavy arrow. Shooting inside of 40 yards the trajectory is not that dramatic. There is substitute for keeping shots ethical. 90% of bow hunters have no business shooting beyond 40 yards.
Arrows for this year for me are 682 grains with a 125 grain single bevel broad head 17% foc spine aligned to the nock and cock vane
3 fletched right helical to match the bevel on the broad head as well .
My bow this year is a
Prime Nexus 2 set at 80lbs
28.5 inch draw length
Sweet, should have no issue getting complete pass throughs on any hybrids including those quartering to or away
So talking tuning the arrow fletched. I was getting hard right tears and had to shift the rest left a lot to get it out. I’m shooting pretty good now but like i said I had to move the rest a lot, I think the cams need adjust but the guy I got strings from told me that since he tuned it it’s good he shot it right handed, left handed, and it left shooting bullets. How he shot a right handed bow left handed is beyond be…. I think he was being short with me but now I don’t feel as though I can confidently take it back to that guy to get that adjust and get the rest closer to square. What should I do in this situation? Field points and broadheads are shooting fairly close together now, and paper tuned in getting good holes. I don’t if this will get noticed since it such and old video but I’m at a wall with this.
I watch you channel and the ranch fairy. I am comfortable with 40 years of watching animals die in sight. There are points I love about the ranch fairy. Sharp broad heads are a must. I don't enjoy tracking game. I love knowing I made a good shot. I love knowing that I did everything possible to insure an animal I put a broad head through finds the best demise possible. I shoot a two blade broad head. Don't be lazy, sharpen your broad head.
Are we talking quarting to or quartering away?
I agree! Animals move.
Computer generated sight tape does not match my setup.
It is not about broad heads, it is about each hunter and his or her desire. Each hunter can not agree with everything you believe..
I agree about spine. I tested it too many years with a longbow.
I can’t remember my exact weight but I shoot a 300 spine gold tip Airstrike with an extra 20 grains behind the factory components with 100 grain tip... cut 27.75” .... I think it’s around 440 with the nocturnal... that was out my prime at 65#’s with 27.5 draw... flys like a dart and very strong arrows... little lighter shaft then your axis
Just try those arrows one day, I’m pretty sure that you would be impressed Dan
WHAT ARROW ARE YOU USING FOR THAT GPI????
Wondering if any one can answer thus question for me. I'm shooting 70lbs , 28 inch draw with 29.25 inch arrows. 300 spine easton axis arrows with 75 grain hit inserts and 125 grain broadhead. Am I under spine? Any help will will be appreciated.
Nope but I would cut your arrow right after the Broadhead clears your bow rest so it adds some more strength to your arrow. 29.25 is kind of long for a 28inch draw specially with all that added weight. I’m shooting an Easton Axis 300spine, 50gr brass insert, 10gr collar, 125gr Broadhead. At 70lbs with a 28inch draw. Cut mine to about 27.75. It shoots 275fps with a 538gr arrow. 90ft-lbs!
@@1989inception Thank you for the information. My next arrows will be cut shorter. Kind of too late now with those inserts glued in down inside the shafts. Much appreciated 🙏
Thank you for a very reasonable rebuttal to ranch fairy. I’ve definitely drank his kool-Aid but I’m strictly north east deer hunter. My set up is just over 600 grains. But My longest shot I’ve ever taken was 35 yards and my goal is to keep my shots distance to 20 yard and in. I know my arrow build is over kill but it was nice to hear y’all affirm my choice considering my short ranges. If I ever get a chance to hunt out west I will definitely shave 100+ grains off. Thank you for all the amazing archery content it pushes me to be better
I used to shoot a light setup. But I have since switched over to a 600 gr setup. Time will tell if I stick with them or go back to a lighter setup.