Ranking EVERY Marksman/AD Carry In League of Legends (By Design)
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- Welcome back to my class ranking series! It's been an EXTREMELY long time since the last episode which focused on Assassins. Today we're gonna be discussing the Marksman class (which is fitting because ADCs are about to get buffed hard haha) so hope you enjoy!
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#LoL #Adc #Ranking
Putting Jhin 3rd instead of 4th is heresy, unbelievable, unforgivable, and heartbreaking.
The horror! The horror! The horror! The horror!
Sir, I just wanted to come in and say thank you for making your entire comment an increment of four.
I just love how you listed 4 things loll
this comment is necessary for balance
We need a support tier list to see yummi in our own tier
I made a tier list for all the champions and created a special tier bellow for Seraphine and Yummi.
Good Tier
Average Tier
Bad TIer
Garbage Tier
Yummi Tier
That would be ridiculous. She has only ONE problematic ability
@@nicolaezenoaga9756 ur right, we need 2 TIERS FOR YUUMI
@@kairollz1371 If I could shake your hand, I would
Varus having this many different item builds is actually the reason I love picking him first. Crit for hyper lategame dps, on hit for a strong midgame dps, lethality for midgame poke against squishy teams and ap for oneshots. he might not the the best in any of those, but I love that I can pick him and choose what to do, after I have seen both teams
very nice perspective-- good comment
Those builds are fun and all but they're all pointless when ap is so much better
Agree, my pick in bottom as I play fill. You can adapt in champ select to get what you need based on comps
AP Varus master race
It's been my go to adc for a while now. the funniest part to me is that, i can go lethal tempo with any of those builds, get berzerker greaves and still be an effective auto attacker even if I'm full lethality, or full ap. Such a nice and flexible pick.
Kogmaw: in good tier
Kogmaw's passive: allow me to introduce myself
Hey, I got a Quadrakill with his passive, back in 2013. I still remember it. Fight a Kha, he kills me and run with 2hp in a bush, I follow him in passive, his WHOLE team was recalling low HP in said bush after Baron 🤣😂. Quadra Kill! Memorable! It was PERFECTION! Jhin would be jealous.
They need to either change it or make it scale with items somehow.
@@oinkleberry if they change it/ make it better they have to take power from the rest of his kit
his w is so good because it takes power from his passive
@@zerdodylan do they though?
is he even good nowadays?
@@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz he’s good just situational, team reliant tank killer
8:42
Gotta love how Nilah is running it down in the gameplay footage lmao
where did he even rate her?
@@lexlorian2559 he didn't maybe because nilah is so new so he can't rate her in good faith
@@thenerdywyvern4474 she isn't an marksman by class but a fighter with crit itemization like Yasuo and Yone and we don't see them here.
@@GGiGotHydra Vars did call her a "diver marksman" alongside Samira, so idk why he didn't rank her. Probably ass tier though, "Not the best" at most.
I Agree overall, but I think Senna has a serious issue. She has to stay bad to not be the most powerful ADC in the game.
Very high self-heal, infinite scaling, global ult, TEAM UNTARGETABILITY.
If she has that and is strong enough in the meta, she's instantly back to her release. Which means : too frickin strong.
as a senna player i think the main problem with senna is Riot not wanting to give up any of her roles while balancing her, she's always broken because of some item or playstyle but Riot refuses to just remove her from the adc role so stuff like fasting senna always comes back
@@Theoriginalmistwalker they literally removed her from the adc role a while ago, because balancing her as sup and adc was impossible/too hard. She is only playble as a sup for quite some time now
@@lukilsn Nah, although she doesn't appear on the draft menu, she's still listed as a marksman in the shop
@@MajWinters100 you can be a marksman without being adc, just like xerath is an artillery mage while being support
@@MajWinters100 never said she is not a marksman. marksman is a class(like tank, fighter,...) not a role
The top lane bias is strong in this one. 😂💙
Sivir is not redundant simply because she has the best waveclear in the game, tied only to Ryze and Anivia. She also has a great teamfight ultimate; we all know how strong MS is.
Also, what was the point of discussing Vayne if you only fixate on her top presence?
I think the most interesting to see next would be tanks or juggernauts, mainly because they’re seen as many for having some of the worst designs in the game, while most people love playing them
@Duckervert like the 0/7 yorick easily beating a 11/0 kat :D
@Duckervert If she is a threat at all stages then that's just the team's fault. Also if she plays bad then she isn't a threat.
The existance of Jungle has had the knock-on effect that now tanks are super badly designed.
They all build not a single damage item and still one shot you with insane base damage, while being unkillable.
The problem is that tanks have to be like this, because they have to play in lane against bruisers and would just get run down.
If jungle didn't exist as a role, the game could be played 2-1-2 and tanks now have a lane partner so they don't have to deal insane anymore and can instead rely on their utility
Raidboss/ Splitpusher or both. Thats it
@@xolotltolox7626 I don't understand how are tanks badly designed? That's just a meta issue and I don't agree at all. Jungle is an important role you can't just remove it, just wish riot could decide where tanks should stay, in the jungle, support or top.
Jhin #1 we all know it.
Shouldn't he be nr 4 tho ?
#1 drip of the rift
you mean 4/4
FOUR
Totally Number Four
Personally, champions with multiple playstyles are always more interestingn to me than champions with only one playstyle, but that's just me I guess. They get my brain rolling and wanting to try all sorts of theories to see what feels good and what doesn't. When a champion is hard coded to do ONE thing and ONE thing only, that doesn't stop them from being fun, but they get boring really fast when spammed.
Hard disagree on kaisa and xayah, they are both great champions with unique designs. Kaisa's only problem being the ap build being annoying is only an issue cause riot gave her wonky numbers on w, other than that it's really not a champion that has issues. Xayah is a champion built around a single very interesting concept, and built well around it.
+1
cant expect a top main to rank adcs fairly
honestly i am a bit pissed off by how much people constantly suggest kaisa's ap scaling is somehow toxic, especially since they rejoice and think it is perfectly balanced and healthy when a top/mid/jg champions has multiple build paths.
@@wh1sp3rr but other still play the same way even with different builds, Kaisa n' Zeri has entirely different playstyle on these 2 builds
only thing i dont like about kaisa is her e invisibillity but judging her based on an annoying meta she had some months ago is really bad imo
I personally disagree with the multiple playstyles thing. I think when a champ has multiple viable playstyles that’s a very good design because it means they aren’t 1 dimensional. It makes for a champ to be way more enjoyable because once you get really good with them in one playstyle you can try another. For example with varus I got good with poke varus and found it a lot of fun but after a while I started getting a bit bored so I tried AP varus and it was a lot of fun because I also had to learn how to play him differently and form new habits
I honestly find that with the recent changes to Sivir, she actually has found a decent place as a unique teamfighting marksman at least when compared to Twitch, Kog'Maw, Vayne, and Jinx. While the majority of teamfight centred marksman tend to focus on abilities that prioritize buffing themselves, Sivir is unique in a sense she is able to provide a resetting ability which also benefits her team in the form of her ult. Being able to provide mobility to an otherwise immobile team is huge on top of her incredible split-push ability, multi-target damage, and rewarding high reaction speed (mostly due to timing and decision making) on her e. I honestly rate sivir higher, considering her excellent design atm and she's just such a well rounded marksman to play imo. Then again, this is also coming from a plat Renata Glasc Supp main so take that with a grain of salt lol.
No you are absolutely right
She is one of the very few adc's who can literally win the game while having shit kda. If the enemy team is dead and Sivir is up with maybe one team mate her clear, speed and push is very dangerous. I find it interesting considering we look at adc's as at fragile killers, while Sivir is an incredible pusher with more ways of staying alive than her coleagues (E and R) so she is more likely to have a comeback after a harsh early game. I honestly think she is one of very few old champions who are till this day solid and fun to play
It's weird that you rated Kog"Maw so high even though he kinda has the same problem with varus where he's half auto attacker half artillery mage. I think he should be updated
I 100% agree. Kog is the adc with an identity crisis
I think it’s interesting that we can look at the same champion design and come away with different opinions, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Personally, I think it’s really exciting when a champion can do multiple things, or build different route and paths and items based on the situation. I see that as the ultimate source of skill expression, with a dash of skill shots and reaction time making up the difference.
Please do specialists next, my man.
They deserve some love alas'.
My issue with Kog Maw is his passive. I think it is the pinnacle of terrible design. It rewards the Kog Maw player for playing poorly, and it has zero counterplay for the opponent. In an ideal world he would never actually be able to use the passive at all.
I mean its the worst death passive imo. It's annoying but not overpowered.
Bro the counterplay is you have like 5 seconds to dash, flash boost ur ms with an ability while if you're a champ who doesn't have that you probably didn't even notice he exploded in the first place
This is like doing the right thing for the wrong reasons
Kog's passive is terrible, it's not that it rewards you for playing well, it just doesnt do shit, look at other marksmen passives, we have jinx crazy boost when she kills an enemy, jhins bullets in general, tristana getting increased range, kaisa's 5 stack passive etc
every single one gives either mobility, survivibility or dmg, kog doesn't do any of them as the dmg is misserable and super unreliable
Kog's kit is shitty, and I say it while loving playing him, but his E, R and passive are non existent, he gets carried by his Q and specially his W
You can't simply have 1 overtuned ability and balance it around that all the others are shit, that's poor desing, when they rework him I expect a giga nerf on his W and some more utility on his other spells, Q can stay
Nowadays Kog is a tanky adc, builds rageblade runaans and defensive items, maybe they can double down in that playstyle by giving him some scalings with hp for a shield or smtng
@@omega7057 late reply, but i think singed is a good example of centralizing the moveset around a single ability. one ability has him lay down a poison trail, and the rest of his kit is designed to make the opponents stay in the poison for as long as possible. he would be useless without his Q, but that does not make the other four skills feel obsolete
@@Underworlder5 yup, that's a great example, but now, why would the tanky adc that has high anti-tank abilities want to put a slow field that doesn't even help as a zone tool? Or try to snipe you with a skill shot that executes low hp characters? It's just dumb, singed however says "okay, I leave a poison trail, so what if I can run fast when passing champions, throw them into it slow them/hard CC them so they stay inside it and and an ult that allows me to do all this but much easier? Now, that's how you desing your kit around an ability
I love zeri because of the aim mechanic but it's true that she has a problem
Also to comment on placement, I'd put Xayah a tier higher, I'm not sure where you got a "lack of dps" from her in recent times, Navori Quickblades has basically breathed new life into how she plays, the second Navori comes online for her she gets infinite access to her W attack speed steroid in fights, plus lets her use her E more often, do more damage with abilities, etc.
He makes videos well in advance, this video easily could've been made before rito touched crit at all for the current (pre)season. Clearly she had a problem before Navori got reworked, and that's all he likely had to work with when he recorded the audio. You can say Corki could get balanced around new navori and get a much more interactive meta build, and Vars mentioned how one notely uninteractive he is with no suggestion or idea for moving him away from that. One of Var's biggest problems with his videos is how easily they can be out of date weeks before they air, and at this point it's getting funny to me 😂
@@casualmarkit9969 ah fair points
I think Xayah is rlly good design, but gets countered by a lot of stuff in this modern day and age
Xayah is “ADCs need good positioning” to the extreme. Her play style is about knowing where your feathers and the enemies are at all times. The moment the enemy makes a positioning mistake you punish them severely. She fights a bit differently from other ADCs because you can’t just run around kiting someone in a circle, your E would then be useless. I have killed people off screen before because I had feathers on the ground and was fighting somewhere else when I finally recalled them and they forgot to keep track of where I was. This is why her only movement ability is her R and why her W also gives love speed. If she could dash around all of the time you’d have very little counterplay. That’s why flash and galeforce and so strong on her, but they their cooldowns tend to be longer than a basic ability (especially flash). If you know how to play Xayah, she’s actually really good against dash engage champs, she’s considered a counter to Samira. But you have to know how to player. She’s not the most beginner friendly.
Sivir is good at teamfighting yes, but it's her waveclear and spellshield that for me makes her instantly stand out. She is the only teamfighting champion that can effectively counter Blitzcrank and Morgana with a single spell. The movement speed you give allies makes her really good at chasing or escaping, something you don't see in other teamfighting marksmen.
It's a bit unfair to say she is redundant when she is actually quite unique.
this video should've been longer, i think longer videos are good in general but especially a tier list like this could've been 30-45min w/o being boring. imo modern youtube is much more focused on longer video essays and in depth content, because short form videos can go on something like tiktok
I honestly would wanna see something like enchanters when milio comes out to see how he compares to the others but I think you should do wardens/tank supports if you do wanna wait for Milio but I’m excited for this and hopefully it becomes a series
i feel bad for akshan samira and vayne bcs of sharing the same tier with zeri
Naaa as a vayne main she cool yeah but she can kill everything in the game also she can hold her own pretty well against assassin's
@@tspithas6862 atleast vayne stays as the same vayne so we know how to play against her and what to pick against her. Zeri is a different character every new patch. Shes a crit adc - new patch - shes a poke mage - new patch - shes an adc that builds bruiser items - new patch - shes a burst mage - new patchb- she uses on hit items - new patch - shes useless never pick her and that goes on.
Best ADCs: Ziggs, Seraphine, Karthus 😆
Where Swain and Veigar?
So I do agree with the majority of the placements but I do think a few of the points are weak. First I think a sign of a healthy game is its ability to or played in different ways. “Off meta” picks being viable makes the game more interesting and dynamic. As much as ranged top laners can be frustrating or champions with alternative play-styles can feel unfair, they allow for more people to enjoy and play multiple rolls. Samira, Zeri, and Nilah serve a valuable place (all be it after some balance changes) They make adc available for those who don’t love traditional marksmen. In the same sense lucian, vayne, and yes akshan (Though the revive is still insane) Allow for marksmen players to play other lanes. In my opinion this is a core of modern league.
Exactly! I felt like he rated Samira for example low, cause she wasnt isnt the usual adc.
I disagree with the Xayah placement, she is unique in that she is super safe and is a good counterpick to a dive comp. Her feathers also make for a unique mechanic to play around, making her play different compared to other ADC's. I'd put her in good atleast tbh.
I would love for riot to push Ash into a full marksman champion. I hate the new W spam support. She doesn't even do a lot of damage with marksman items and doesn't benefit from crit items due to her passive. Sadge
Dude, Ashe is probably the best Adc that can be played with a partial (
Kog is the perfect ADC, he is what they should all be (well, him and Ashe). He is the most ADC of all the ADC.
You mean boring to play and 90% Team reliant? If you want adc to become the most uninteresting role to play then sure mate go on
Senna has been a dissappointment from day 1.
After seeing the Shadow Isles cinematic i thought she had the ability to shield allies from hard cc or damage. But no, she's just an overstat adc with only one weakness, that being having no mobility.
She gains so many free stats for just existing and its NOT hard to stack unlike Kindreds passive just to name an example.
And now her autos slow you? ASS tier for sure.
Max health true damage cannot not be allowed, especially in tank meta s13, where tanks can get incredible amount of resistances and/or max hp, and also convert it to ap or ad
Max health true damage is necessary to keep super tanks from having absolute control in the meta
@@ultimagamer3976 where is that meta though? If that's the case ban Fiora and Vayne and you win? There is already enough anti tank items and max hp, current hp dmg in abilities, and also a whole class.
@@gorgistanojevik3196 yeah, thats whats keeping a tank meta from forming in the first place, tank metas are very unhealthy for the game overall.
@@gorgistanojevik3196 to be fair, most max hp and current hp attacks come from tanks, like mundo and ornn (who also scale in defensive stats so you can build pure tank and still hit like a truck). i do agree %health true damage needs to disappear. it makes vayne and fiora too hard to balance. either they hard carry or hard feed, no inbetween
@@ultimagamer3976 as if those "super tanks" actually did shit against an 4+ item adc.
It's not necessary to have% true dmg right now and I doubt it will be necessary for as long as pen items are strong enough + you simply could give vayne/fiora natural armor pen instead
I feel like kindred shouldn’t be this low. Unlike every other hyper scaler in the game, kindred is forced to play proactively in order to scale and can’t passively wait for item spikes because of how much of her power is tied into marks which is a snowball mechanic (easier to get successful invades and kills when ahead). She’s not that useful when behind since she’s essentially a pure dmg champ with the only utility being her R and won’t ever become relevant in the game unless she is able to collect marks. In exchange for one of the strongest early game and late game combinations, she has one of the slowest early clear speeds out of relevant junglers and relatively weak ganking. She is one of the hardest junglers to play since she requires adc micro and kiting while amplifying jg macro difficulty through marks and knowing when it is/isn’t safe to go for them based on tracking enemy jg and lane states, especially when people will play pretty hard to deny kindred marks. Seeing high elo kindred mains predict marks or use marks to manipulate the enemy jg pathing and allow for a noncontested objective take are some of the coolest champ specific macro plays I’ve seen in the game. Marks are one of the most interesting ways to encourage aggressive play in the game while providing a satisfying reward for the kindred and a decent amount of counter play from the enemy.
Almost a perfect ranking - there should just be a Jhin tier on top, and then a few tiers between him and excellent that no other champion is in
i agree with everything but senna. I think senna is ass tier, i like that you can play other things bot than adc and not get flammed for trolling, but senna passive allow her to do way to much. Senna can build every sing item she wants too because of that passive and i think she is a lot more selfish than other supports even pyke, and she is and forever will be extremly annoying to play against as an adc because of slow passive and all her other utillity and her w is way to forgiving with its hitbox.
And great video btw
As an ADC main, it feels like you just decided this tier list exclusively how it feels to play a top laner into a marksmen. 😊
we need mages next
No fucking way you didnt put aphelios in top tier, the design is excelent, with clear strengths and weakness during the game, and having a playstyle around weapon rotation they couldnt have done it any better
The problem with Aphelios is clear counterplay, Aphelios is a very complex champ and has trouble with visual clarity since a lot of his skills look Extremely similar which makes it hard to respond accordingly
I think we know where graves and nilah go, even if they aren’t here. An assassin with more armor than a tank and a stat-stick adc. Sounds fun.
I've got to disagree with Varus just little bit, as you can pull off such wild stuff with him if you play your cards right. I'd bump him up to good design, but that's a touch of bias seeping through.
the problem with senna is when shes played support shes not really a support shes a second adc the peel she offers is really weak she offers mostly damage I prefer when shes better adc than support
I think Quinn sould be in the tierlist too, since there is Kindred, Corki and Akshan, maybe in the "ASS" rank, though...
Kai’Sa to me is the most gratifying adc out there. She’s flashy and if you re good makes you feel cool
As for Kindred, I get the criticism at her ult design, but you shouldn't forget that for an unexperienced player it's an ability that might as well just kill your entire team as well.
Taric and Bard don't really have that option. Taric has a cast time for a reason, because it makes you invulnerable at any HP whenever he wants to. Bard is more instant than Taric, but has an inbuilt Zhonyas effect for you and your teammates or even enemies AND turrets. It's a great dive tool, chase tool, and a Zhonyas built into the kit. Kindreds ult however, while instant, requires you to be at 10% of HP to even do anything. It's invulnerability without a stun for everyone. You, your teammates, your enemies and even jungle monsters and minions. In those 3 seconds a lot can happen, if Kindred uses the ult wrong her entire team might just get shredded by a Renekton who otherwise would have died if she didn't use the ult. On top of that it significantly reduces the movement of near-death units in this time. They are basically not allowed to leave the circle until it ends or they die. Don't get me wrong a well placed Kindred ult can literally swing the entire game around but it can do the same for the enemy team with a bad placed ult.
I have to agree with most of the list the only standouts I see are Ashe (by proxy MF to a far lesser extent), Senna, Samira. To justify I think the flexibility of Ashe in support is a sign of how good she is and while even the hail of blades build becomes a poke mage in the late game it is not so divergent from her base gameplay. I personally put her in Excellent.
Senna is ass (not tier wise but still), some heavy bias but even ignoring that I think excellent is far to high. She is a marksmen with multiple peel tools that is encouraged to stay as far away from you as possible as opposed to Trist. That scales Attack range, which is fine Kindred does it to, the issue there is that she starts at base 600 so she already outranges the entire cast bar Annie Caitlyn and Ashe. And the stacks for the scaling are as easy as "sit and wait" Before lane phase ends (14 minutes) she has around the second scaling benchmark meaning 640 attack range she functions as a second Caitlyn in the support role that still blows you up on the low econ of a support, unless you are a tank of course. Personally she is in ass with Ezeral (Flash on a 30 second cooldown with a refresh mechanic) but being realistic Ezeral is fine were he is and Senna is in passable Top of it if it was ordered.
Lastly Samira, now hear me out passible. The exact reasons for the admittance into ass tier the vast difference in how she operates compared to other marksmen. When piloted well she has the best play experience (both as/against or spectating) of any marksmen. Her having base 500 attack range gives most ADCs easy access to poke her or harass with autos. Her proclivity to be in or near melee range means that everyone can fight her so no one has the felling of annoyance not being able to get into effective range. And sticking to the role 90% of this list is in ADC gives players access to playstyle that is more than just auto attacks or "what if you main damage was a skillshot" like Zeri and Ezeral. In transparency yes Lucian can fit that spot as a spell weaving marksmen like her, but he is more front loaded and still functions in a range as far away from the other person as possible.
senna is not overloaded garbage? is it april first yet?
Hard disagree on Vayne, Senna and Tristana
Vayne is fine her Max HP true damage is fine, it's nowhere near as bad as Fiora's. Senna also recieved a change every 4 patches after her release, which falls under your Zeri argument although not to the same extent and she enables some of the most unfun botlane duos(Senna Kench, Senna Swain etc.)
Trist has way too much self peel for a marksman and her resetting W is super annoying, plus she has a braindead kit of just E and AA away
So you basically put any marksman capable of bully you as a toplaner into ass tier
10:15 “You prevent the boundaries that prevent overloaded champions”
This I feel like is the basis for this tier list, and I think it’s incredibly flawed. To this day, I still don’t see why people think overloaded champs are bad. Samira and Akshan are, in my opinion, two of the best design champs in the game. They are champs that are incredibly fun to play, and dealing with them feels like you actually are in control. You don’t really have much control of dealing with something like a fed Jinx because she outranges your entire team, is faster than everybody and melts anyone or anything that gets close to her. Against a fed Samira/Akshan, even when fed they don’t have the pure raw damage to instantly melt your entire team at once. Samira needs to get in the middle of your team and still can’t ult immediately (and she’s still got the durability of an adc) and Akshan has a very 1 by 1 playstyle where he can’t just pop out of stealth and mow down your entire team at once like Twitch for example. That to me makes me enjoy Samira’s and Akshan’s designs more than, say, Jinx or Caitlyn.
Overall: I will definitely say I expected most of these placements, but I hard disagree with every single champ in ass tier. Ass tier (imo) should be reserved for Kogmaw, Twitch and Corki alone. And Samira and Zeri for me go in Excellent.
i expected these placements
but here's mine:
excelent: cait, jinx, jhin, kai'sa (which by far has the best evolve mechanic in the entire game, has a minigame with her passive but it's better than vayne or varus just because it can be triggered with an ability, her W is a lot of utility and creativity in it, the ult too con serve multiple functions and the cisual clarity for the opponents is always perfect, the enemy will always know what is happening, unlike aphelios; plus i actually like the build and playstyle diversity) and ezreal (tbh the better version of corki is ezreal, a spellslinging adc)
good design: ashe, kog, mf, sivir, lucian, mf, xayah (the positioning of her feathers makes her design really interesting, but what i don't like is the fact that only with Q you can decide where the feather is going to land, otherwise it's always behind the enemy you aa, would be excelent if her Q was just 1 feather but much less cooldown)
passable: aphelios, kindred, varus, draven (any champion that can get gold generation out of nowhere for me can't be an excelent design, the other thing that makes me dislike draven is the fact that he's super sensible to cc, which already the class is, because if you get stunned or rooted you will lose axes, plus he will fall behinf if he's not already ahead by a big marin in laning phase, don't have any tools to come back, his utility is almost null, unlike many early game champs like renekton, pantheon, elise or lux, that fall behind but still retain something), samira (almost a bruiser, riot tried to meld the 2 classes and this is what came out at first, as a first attemp it's passable, but she still has a dash that resets on takedowns), tristana (350 range dash with resets) akshan (honestly he's the fairest ranged toplaner of all, as a botlaner he is ass tier, but this tierlist is for marksmans, if riot removed all that useless text on his pasives and just wrote "when 3 hits get bonus damage, if target is champion get shield" on his passive and his W was just ww W and no revive, I would consider the excelent design)
not the best: vayne (you listed her flaws, but I don't think she deserves ass tier), kalista, twitch
ass: zeri, senna (surprise! the 2 balance nightmares of marksmans are an ass tier design, who would have thought?)
not adc: corki (a poke mage that builds adc items is still a poke mage)
Vars I don't understand the reason for leaving out the other marksman like sure you can consider them specialists but that doesn't negate the fact that they are still marksman you talked about how it's hard to have diversity in that class while not including part of that diversity present
I love Kai'Sa because of her build diversity and the feeling of playing her. I build her with Navori and weave her spells with her autos.
Lucian not being in Excellent makes me feel conflicted as a Lucian Main. On one hand, he is by far the best example of power distribution for an ADC. On the other hand, he remains as one of the best examples of how a kit can be overloaded without being overtuned, given his ability to crush weak Midlaners and whiny Toplaners. Overall, I love him as he and Draven require their ADCs to be better than their opponents to control and snowball effectively, with their strong early game and powerspikes Midgame.
EDIT: Power distribution does not equal design. The best ADC by design is Jhin. It's not even close. Power distribution is how all of the things in the Champions kit balance out. Design is how those things work together.
I agree with your tierlist with one exeption - tristana. She is passable at most, and I would even say not the best. She has too good early game while also have at least decent lategame. She can be very agressive but also very safe at the same time. In my opinion she prooves that some old and straightforward champions also can be bad designed. I would maybe also placed Sivir in exellent tier. She is really underrated.
Sorry, but build diversity is what MAKES a champion so much more fun. I shouldn't just be limited to the champion I pick.
Same thought, various and unusual builds make a unique playstyle and a new identity. Riot balance team members tried a lot of times to remove various builds like full lethality Varys, but as always they failed 😈
in my opinion apheliuos kit is really really well designed. the problem allways was the numbers and that is what ios consistently changed, different from zeri that had things added and (mostly) removed from her kit all the time. He relies on skill expression but is not that dificult to understand once you put some time on him. really creative and not that blown kit since you only have two weapons at a time.
The Fire Emblem Heroes Music is ingrained to my brain after all these years and i hate you for bringing it back
I like this topic. Something interesting I noticed was he knocked Kaisa for having more than one playstyle, but ignored AP Kog XD
And disliked Varus who has the same issues as Kog
OK so first off noticed the FEH BGM, that took me back.
Idk how Ezreal isn't in excellent. He's so skillshot reliant even your autos won't do much without landing skillshots (passive and sheen items). imo he's like the Caitlyn of spellcasters, very simple but very deep gameplay.
It’s weird how you put Samira so low for being overloaded and not-marksmen like and then in the next breath put Senna up at the very top. I’d definitely put them both in mid tier if anything.
Hot take or not: Samira has a melee carry kit with feast or famine features like Yi, so if they just made her melee, she'd instantly become more balanced. Make a part of her passive being able to auto at range on a cooldown a la Poppy.
Varus and Kai'sa: Varus was designed in a different time when alternate builds were a good thing. Kai'sa was designed now in the time that builds have to be focused. I think both are fine even if each are annoying for different reasons. A part of the frustration with AP Kai'sa is that Manamune's damage on ability passive solves her lack of AD with just tapping Q. More of an interactivity issue imo
I legit only play Jhin and Miss Fortune nowadays though when I'm carry so what do I know
Only fighting for Vayne to be outside of ASS - I still remember the League of Tanks and want assurance to have champs to take down the beef.
Do a game designer tierlist and explain why august should get the noose
I'm an ADC main myself and I fully agree with Vayne being in ass tier. Percent max health true damage is an unbalanceable plague that needs to just be removed. Make it physical on every champion that has it, since they're all physical damage dealers, and remove it from the game entirely.
As for Zeri, I think that, if Riot hadn't kept trying to fix what isn't broken, she could've very easily landed in Excellent tier. And honestly, I think that as she currently is, after the balance nightmares stuff has finally ended, she deserves better than what you gave her. Minimum I think she could land in "Good Design" for the fact that she's all skillshots alone now that they're not broken.
Bro, i understand the fact that the true damage its not the fairest in the game, but she compensates it by having low aa range and any range ability, or any kind of aoe damage and wave cleer, plus she gets fucked by 90% of the matchups, and its hard to farm with her, so i think that makes her ballance, i mean shes very good in specific scenarios, and complete garbage in others.
I generally agree or learn something new every time I see your video. But I this time I have many disagreements.
Firstly, I think having build diversities is good on champs because not only does that make a champ more flexible(even in single role) but it is more fun to OTP. For that particular reason, Varus should be in top tier and so should Kaisa. Btw you put Kogmaw in higher tier despite his kit being worse than these two champs and he can build AP too.
Secondly, I am surprised Nilah is not here. Even though she is not classified as marksmen due to her short range(she is melee), she is primarily a bot laner. Would have loved to see here(as an exception) but it is understandable.
Thirdly, if Aphelios can put in passable then Zeri deserves at least passable at least imo. After rework she is quite balanced and has her usage.
Fourth, I think Vayne is a decent champ. She has very clear weaknesses - like zero wave clear and can be easily shutdown early by many adcs. Of course, she has strengths too, but that is a good thing. She is trash when faces against assassins or mages teams. Only good against tanks team honestly.
Lastly, Xayah. She is the perfect adc to play against dive comp, no questions asked. She has her use case and her kit is overall quite engaging. Imo she should definitely be in higher category. She doesn't really rely on Rakan, even though that is a monstrous lane.
I really enjoy these videos and wish you would take longer to really talk about the good and bad in the champs. I would watch 30 minute versions even if their less polished because of it
Vayne maybe is a problem because of her true dmg however it's the most fun marksman to play .if she didn't have the tru dmg no one would hate her .and also she is auto attack marksman so you actually learn how to position yourself correctly as a traditional ADC
Yap agree
Idk I think just a duelist marksman shouldn't exist like a fighter tank... (K'Sante) because of the true damage and 1v1 potential they gave her one of if not the shortest range from all marksman and imagine playing that into Caitlyn or Ezreal in lane you just rely on your support so much so in high elo you literally see more Vayne top than Vayne adc.
You can say we're ranking marksmen and not adcs so her being viable somewhere else isn't a big issue but seeing that adc is almost exclusively a marksman only role and was up until some time where you couldn't play mages bot I think it's fair to say she has a pretty bad design
@@gorgistanojevik3196 but She Is bad botlane because She looses lane if an enchanter presses 1 button.
She was nerfed a lot so in the lane with 2 players attacking you She Is worse.
In toplane She still isnt that great (not bad), but She Is still playable top because those Champions cant poke her as easily.
She was fine like Twitch for a decade, so it's not the design that Is the problem but the balance and the new items.
Caitlynn's trap could use a longer cd though putting 4-5 traps in a few seconds under tower is kinda bs but for the rest she is well designed. as for ezreal i think he should be excellent cause he is fair and still build on skill
I understand why Xayah is as low as she is, but I do think she does safety better than any other marksman in the game. I main ADC and if I ever see more than 1 assassin I always pick Xayah. The access to consistent hard crowd control and instant untargetability give her a unique niche in my eyes and I recommend her to people who get autofilled ADC at low elo if they don't understand safe positioning because she still has good utility and dps while being very forgiving to mistakes.
Distinct look of superiority seeing my mains on top of the list and the champions I hate on bottom
The fire emblem heroes music just took me into a nostalgia flashback lol
Ex Master Jhin Main. Perma Aphelios Main. Aphelios was nerfed to the absolute ground and is a shadow of the button mashing, auto attacking, Infernum R spamming abhorrence that he used to be. You actually have to know what you’re doing- from mechanics; game knowledge; your own combos and how to use them for that given situation, etc., to play well. You can master lane phase all you want, usually by just being passive, but once you get out of it you better be ready to know how to apply all of those things I stated before or, most likely than not, you will be playing Grey Screen Simulator.
Aphelios is definitely in a good spot right now… because no one talks about him… You actually have to know what you’re doing, which deters those not wanting to deal with that (and all the things that come with it) and attracts those that do.
From personal experience i don't agree with senna. When she's strong she's way to safe with that range scaling capabilities and she just becomes a monster in the late game. And then as someone that played a lot of adc and seeing a lot of support players play senna i feel like she doesn't have enough peel to help your adc out if the enemy team really decides to dive them. So it limits what u can play with her since you have to stay away from adc's that can't peel for themselves. Esspecially since you essentially put 2 squishy marksman in one place in a game that has evolved where there's so much damage and dashes that adc's are more reliant on their supps than ever before. So she's in this weird spot where i don't like her on my team and i don't like her on the enemy team when she's strong. which is my same opinion on yuumi. The only time i like yuumi on my team is if I'm not the adc that almost has to 1v2 lane with her while i wait for her to come on line. Then add in that most people playing senna tend to build straight damage and play more aggresive and selfishly than other supps she doesn't really play like a team player most of the time. Which is counter intuitive for a support.
Like the psychopath i am, whenever i get adc i only play aphelios, so he's the best in my eyes
Just 4 changes:
Draven: Should go down in the last 2 tiers. He can't be dealt with in lane, ganks won't work because of his W and E, if he scales he which is extremely hard to prevent then he can carry games.
Tristana in S tier: she's about using W to get in the middle of the fight at the right time. Her design is fantastic. Maybe it's just me being biased, thought since she's my fav adc.
Kindred are my favorite jg, i'd put them in S tier. It has so much skill expression. I know you don't like complicated champs and that's why you're playing Mundo, but Kindred is a even better designed that Jhin. Only Jhin is more balanced and fair to play against.
Twitch should be at least in passable, his assasination playstyle is what makes him unique to other adcs., but it's not like it's causing problems or something.
As a marksmen player I like the contrast of just not being killable I get from playing tanks doubly so Wardens so I place my stock in the next video of this "series" being tanks.
Or as a fuck you do specialist...
seeing Xayah in passable but Senna in excellent is quite ass but good video overall
"No disrespect to marksman solo laners" YES massive DISRESPECT to filthy marksman solo laners
Aphelios is my absolute favorite ADC, even with his relatively nerfed status he’s so versatile with a high skill ceiling. So satisfying to play once you’ve gotten some experience.
Good ol' Fire Emblem Heroes...
Man that takes me back.
Nice too see you to continue this series. Just a note that at least to me this video was a bit hard to follow since you bounced around with rankings. Could be clearer if it was tier by tier.
Okay Vars, I’m normally like 95% on board with you but imo ya gotta be harsher on a few of these champs, like Sivir, who has the cancer DH Q build that’s only slightly less cancerous than the Kai Sa edition, and Corki, who is ass and in need of a rework. There’s some cool things going on but the cool things he does are mostly bs (stupid long range poke, a dash on a poke champion) and Riot counteracts this by giving him abysmal numbers. AD Kai sa is also a pretty great ADC design (though AP belongs in hell tier), so I’d bump her up to good design.
Kindred and Xayah would be in Excellent, Kindreds whole thing is yes, she's a hypercarry scaler, but that's cause she's pretty weak early on, Her counters tend to be early invaders like Xin and Rengar who can invade and hault her. Xayah's kit is perfectly designed and (Before the dreaded Crit changes of Season 8 or 9...) Doesn't need touching up much. She also is meant to be a scaler and excels more in teamfights when her feathers can be all over and at times ignored just like Twitch and Jinx. And she's one of the few ADC's who can give Zed a middle finger, in lore and gameplay, so she already has my eye.
I think u forgot to mention ap varus where he plays more like lux with percent max hp damage
We’re getting Zeri in WR soon, hopefully she won’t be that bad. Crossing my fingers the balance team will do her right
Sivir is has her own spot. You just do not play her, so you do not understand how good she is at allowing her team to make plays. When you got a whole team of fat ass tanks, you pick Sivir, the enemy will never ever be able to deny an engage, your fatties will run at mach 37 and you will melt the whole team by hitting their front line. She also has by far the best clear out of any adc and possibly the game. She can make bot a single player lane, you can actually refuse to interact with the enemy, push 3 waves, recall, push 3 waves and the enemy can't do much about it. Often, they can't even recall themselves so you end up with a serious item advantage as well as HP.
Sivir and Ashe are the two adc you pick to buff up your team composition and allow them to make plays and picks.
Sivir also is the ADC you pick if you like to to fast rotations. Clear a wave, rotates somewhere and you keep doing it. You can actually get 15cs minute on her in the right circumstances (she can legit farm 2 lanes or a lane and the jungle). She allows her team to have immense pressure as the lanes will all always be pushed when there is a Sivir and she can stall games by denying sieges, like an Anivia would. Laning with Sivir is the art of finding ways to not fight, until they really fuck up, you get a gank or get to 3rd item. Like Ashe, you will end up 2/2/25 with Sivir, but you will have done a significant amount of damages. You are piss weak 1v1, even compared to other weak 1v1 ADCs, but you have the best base movement speed of them all and a passive that makes you zoom even more, so you can usually avoid most fights.
This vid was obviously recorded before Jhin support became a thing
I personally think Zeris design is fine when you consider everything else riot has added into the game. Like at this point if you’re not going to design adcs that can kite on their own then what’s the point of playing them in solo q? You’re just gonna get 2 shot by the enemy K’Sante and could deal as much damage if not more as a bruiser or mage that’s 2-4 times tankier. It’s simply not fun to be so reliant on your team to actually do anything.
I absolutely NEED you to rank every single champions by design. Im begging
Senna should be lower cause having to face double adc in laning is one of the most annoying things, apart from that shes fine
It's funny how people shit on Samira for having a reset on her E, and then gloss over the fact that Katarina can do over 1000 point-and-click damage, with a blink that can reset several times within the second, with a passive that turns off any cooldowns she has if she gains a takedown. Such hypocrisy.
There are some placements on the tier list that I really disagree with, but I like the video!
Nah but bro there ain't no way you put Akshan in the Ass tier for being overloaded while Senna quite possibly has one of the most overloaded kits in the history of the game and you put her in Excellent.
2:18 breaking news, yordle killed by a raging ram
I disagree on a handful of these...
1. Draven: I think Draven has a good design, with one major flaw. He doesnt have good counterplay. If you play Draven with an aggressive support and dont overcommit its a question of time until he gets one kill, especially since you share the lane with someone else who you cant control. So you feel a loss of control when your support dies to Draven and even with just one kill he is at least 1000 gold ahead of you with literally nothing to be done about it. I get the feast or famine playstyle idea but it just doesnt work as intended if Draven gets a lead that is similar to 3+ kills for doing nothing and getting one kill. For Draven to be balanced his passive would need an overhaul in my opinion.
2. Aphelios: I am of the opinion that Aphelios is an excellent level champion. His distinct playstyle works flawlessly into every situation of the game, yet no combination of weapons is overpowered or lacks counterplay. The reason he feels oppressive is simply that enemies dont really understand what makes the individual weapons strong. Just like you cant really say that Caitlyns traps are not well designed just because enemies keep walking into them. Green gun: has range but lacks damage so all in is viable, Purple gun: has cc but lacks damage, play around the cc and all in or heavy trade, blue gun: AOE damage and heavy burst damage, avoid trades and being poked out of lane, red gun: quick burst trades with movement speed and lifesteal, either all in with cc or go for longer trades to outvalue the quick burst damage, white gun: avoid close range and poke him. Given these really simple counters to everything he does and can do, he fits perfectly into his role of the jack of all trades but master of none.
Kalista: She deserves ass tier. The problem is that she is just a statcheck. If tanks are in meta, then she is entirely useless as armor and hp counter her massively. If the meta consists entirely of squishy carries, then she is massively overpowered and can single handedly carry games. The idea with the jumps is really fun to play, but unlike any other adc, she cant consistently take over the game even with a huge lead unless the enemy team has no tanky stats.
Senna: She feels like she is lacking an identity. Be it as a support or as an adc she doesnt have a consistent idea of what she wants to be. She can poke, she can cc, she can deal damage on the odd occasion, but she either feels entirely useless or insanely op in the later stages of the game. Once more the idea of counterplay comes up. There is no counterplay to infinite range. Thus it is impossible to deserve excellent in my book.
Xayah: She deserves a good design. The playstyle around her feathers is super unique and there is no part in her kit that doesnt relate to it in some fashion. She is a control mage marksman and that is at least a good design if not excellent.
Samira: She is a mixed bag for me. On one hand we have the peak of high octane all ins that we know of Lucian and other burst adcs, but on the other she also has tools like her windwall and the reset mechanics. On the first glance she seems to have the master yi problem of being easy to perform on and too overloaded, yet i think there is counterplay to her by using proper positioning and trading to avoid her getting too fed to deal with. She has problems for sure but i would put her in passable.
as a Samira main, I agree with the fact that she's less of a marksman but a skirmisher with a built in ranged attack
if they made her more viable for mid lane like Yasuo, she'd probably kiss botlane goodbye
Same, I dont agree with her being ass tho. Saying "she bad cause she has a very unique playstyle for her class" feels like thinly veiled bias against her. Dont get me wrong, she is a pain to play against, but looking at Samira in comparison to Nilah for example, Samira does everything right, that Nilah gets wrong.
@Max Schw. the thing is, they're playing the same way but they have different classifications, though at this point people should really classify Samira as not an marksman anymore since the only thing tying her to that role is her ranged auto attacks
Nilah just gets off scott free from this list cause she's a "melee" botlaner
@@Xephyranth Thats true, maybe if you made a "botlane carry" tierlist she wouldn't be so far down
@@Auri-u6q I'd say she's on mid tier or near that line, cause she's really just Yasuo but made better for bot
This might be the first time I've ever heard anyone describe Jinx as top heavy.
My opinion :
Add Quinn, Nilah to ASS tier
move aphelios to ass tier
Move Kog'maw , Sivir down to not the best ,
Move miss fortune down to passable ,
Move Caitlyn down to good design
Move Xayah up to good design
Add Graves to good design
Move Ashe , Kai'sa up to excellent
Wow, as much as I enjoy your videos and I respect your insights, I disagree on a lot of your takes from this video.
Senna being Excellent design while Xayah being passable when Xayah should be at least good design (if not take an excellent seat for her unique, fair but also satisfying and skill expressive design). Senna is the most OP, unfair champion to face, I know, I play her support quite a lot. Her numbers are kinda low (only thing keeping her in check) but she has the best infinite scaling in the game that is extremely safe. Only Kindred gets as much of value as Senna from her scaling but Kindreds is locked behind a risky objectives. Senna just stands around farm and scales range, dmg, crit chance and life steal. All things that make ADC's relevant. While being one of better enchanter types support. Not even Yone get's as much hate from me as Senna. Yone at least is uber skill expressive and has a kit that encourages people to be stupid, which balances him out "a bit" (and 1 out of 10 yone's is smart and makes you wanna quit this game)
Also, maybe a controvensial opinion. I don't believe max % health true dmg is inherently bad and shouldn't be allowed in any way. You say it's uncounterable but, if there was an abilitie that dealt 100% max heath true dmg over a spam of 5 seconds for example, it wouldn't kill. Just thing, this spelll would not kill anyone, bcs every champion has a health regen. So Health regen (mundo mostly on that), life steal (a lot of champs) and shealds (you can even build it with steraks) all stops max % health true dmg, inherently raising your health over 100% ceiling. I understand that Fiora's passive and Camille Divine Sunderer combo are to easy acces to it and I also get it that maybe giving it to Vayne, very mobile self pealing adc wasn't best choice, but I believe Vayne's true dmg isn't her main issue, it's her mobility and hyper carry potential over all. I would put Vayne's at the passable to maybe not the best category.
Zeri shouldn't be an ass tier as well. She is fine, Riot was just having weird balance ideas with her. As you said, not champion design fault.
tristana is a lane bully that also has been seen playing in midim mad that you put samira in ass while tristana stays almost melee and when she screws up just ults samira has to commit while tristana has free resets and more movility and disengage
"He never feels oppresively strong, even in the Lucian Nami era"
"I don't find a problem with Senna"
Say you don't play bot lane without saying you don't play bot lane.