I think in some way, it isn't that the "Melee ADCs" are restricting traditional ADCs, but rather the entire game as a whole in Riot's design philosophy is restricting ADCs - and THEN the "Melee ADCs" are freed from that restriction. So, in coordinated pro play, or even elite levels of play, players don't die so often and are relegated to safe farming mostly, players are competent, care about team composition, and work together ideally speaking. In such an environment ADCs thrive, to have a real support and real teammates, and they look very powerful in those games. To balance for that play, where a team needs an ADC to takes towers and objectives and all fights - Riot balances them for that. Then after that has been established for a long time, I think the "Melee ADCs" or crit-based melee champions, are just more designed to be freed from those constraints.Yes Tryndemere and Master Yi are just outdated, old and simple and beat you with stats. Yasuo is infamous, leading to his brother but....I think Yone is a result of the feature/power-creep they have in their design philosophy nowadays more than some overarching "plan" to ruin ADCs by making melee ADCs better. It DOES feel shitty that the Wind brothers have an easier time and spike earlier, but I bet you that is only because of the double crit-chance. You didn't mention in the video, an ADC's crit only gets as good as the random chance. No other item class does that! Imagine if you as a mage bought Luden's Echo/Tempest and it says "has a 20% chance to work" that would be kind of shitty that you don't know when the item will do its function? For ADC's you're buying an item that *may* give you damage 20% of the time, so you have to keep stacking that item until you can reliably do damage 80%-100% of the time. Yasuo and Yone's passive just skip that AND have room for extra items. Wow, 100% crit chance AND I can fit in GA and Death's dance? What ADC doesn't wish they can do that? I'd kill to have 100% crit on Xayah, AND have Death's Dance AND GA.
As far as I know, Riot has implemented a system that guarantees you to get the - let's say - 20% of your crit chance. If you attack 5 times, a 20% crit chance means u will crit one of those 5 times, but there is still the possibility of all 5 hits not being crits. The system will then gradually increase the chance of your champion hitting a crit to kind of compensate for the preceding hits not being a single crit. So you will definitely get the 20% value, no matter what. And yet, that compensation won't do anything for marksmen if they can't even survive for a second after hitting 5 attacks and none of them being crits. Crit sucks tbh.
@@timkruger6481 ahhhh this must be why tryn has such good crit chances then lol that actually makes so much sense now, and no im not complaining about tryn he is easy to counter just find that interesting
@@timkruger6481 But actually that system is complicated to the point where you have like 3% with 50% crit of not hitting crit 7 times in a row. It's just bullshit, why won't they make it like a kraken passive or something? It would actually require skill and your item will always be effecient. Like for example on botlane when you notice than caitlyn has headshot you avoid getting hit by it, same with empowered vlad q and a hundreds of things in this game.
I remember when wad this item that give a crit is ypu dont attack for 2 seconds and every adc ik the game rush it, why riot dont take and make it a new mythic for adcs where champs talk very low attack speed or high crit dependency can use it like, cuz right now the item is 2800G but almost no adc uses it
@Masterofwar it wouldn’t be that bad if you think about it, Zeri was a problem because she could build juggernaut items, and that has happened to other champs, but I think that riot won’t do such things, because every champion can build every single item but runnan, because it wouldn’t make sense
Since the release of Mythic items, I've always thought that Krakenslayer, Shieldbow and Galeforce should been "ranged only" items. Since the beginning.
@@BittenKitten I totally agree that it would be nice to have ranged and melee specific items, then you have distinct item groupings. A solution, if they'd want to do that, is to add similar items for each class (think grievous wounds items) that are very similar in function, but have distinct differences. As you said, they already do this with some other items (such as runnans). Melee champs also have the tiamat based alternatives to get a similar passive to runnan. It's distinctly different, but both do the whole "hit multiple things" idea well.
Changing 5 or 6 champs to make a whole class viable makes sense. Fiora, Jax, and Riven already exist as templates for those monsters to be reined in. Melee damage dealers need to build some defensive stats to survive, like you said in the video, so it's kind of ridiculous to expect them to build crit first and get their cake too. They are skill based stat checkers, that's a combination that should never exist. Either you're a stat check champ, or an outplay champ; having both is actually toxic and dumb
idk about yi yeah he’s master q but in a team fight if he’s not fed has to turn on his brian for a second to actually dodge cc with q and such. still gross regardless
Also, fun fact, only master yi(and I guess Gangplank) need mana out of these "melee adc's", so there's no saving grace of them losing their pressure through loss of resource. They don't get weaker or less threatening, so there are basically no down-time to exploit. Yes, I know Yasuo and Yone need three stacks on Q to make their big wind-move, but do they really need it? and tryndamere uses his rage to get stronger, but late-game, he'll get on you and kill you before he gets full rage. Stat checker through and through, as his rage only helps him win harder.
Yasou's windwall also has a huge cooldown, and he can't dash around like crazy if you are fighting without minions. Tryndamere has what, a 12 second cooldown on his Q, a 14 second cooldown on his W and a 12 second cooldown on his E. He is also super unreliable if he has no fury, which is exactly why you push him out and poke him/do small trades versus him. The problem is not their abilities not having mana, because they do all their damage with their auto attacks anyway. The problem is the items being super overpowered on especially them. You will survive a Tryndamere or Yasou or a Yone if you actually play around your team. Saying that they oneshot adc's is not an excuse. A full tank Malphite also one-shots adc's, that's because adc's are shit atm, and have been for ages.
yasuo walks at an ashe , ashe walks backwards kitting him staying out of his e range yasuo ww ashe waits out the windwall and then continue kiting him if he still come toward her or run him down if he is running away he has 0 armour from item unless he gets to his 3rd item so she will deal dmg no matter what there that's the importance of range and how u can use it, ofc less 10% of the league community can space abilities well and kite effectively but if riot gave in and made adcs not one shottable (aka: giving them more base resistances as bruisers) everyone will play adcs in every role what the point of playing yasuo if i can just stand face tank the yasuo and win in melee range there will literally no pint in playing melees
@@MohamedHossam-mn5cg bro chill out let them live in their fantasy. Bronzies adc shitters will always find a reason to complain about how their class is bad etc even when they’re handed wins on a silver platter. Ezreal and Kaisa already face tank most bruisers with crown? What’s the point lol
@@Teraclon bec ur role job is not to do dmg ur job is peel out the adc/dmg dealer make their job easier at dealing dmg if u r playing naut or leo by locking down divers and assassins If u r playing lulu/sona by buffing them poly/sona autos passive/soraka silence on divers/assassins If u r playing a catcher ur job is to make picks as well by utilizing vision from support item every class has a role and an objective they want to achieve and an environment they shine skrimshers shine in 1v1s bruisers/divers/catcher support shine in 2v2s/making picks adcs/mages/tanks shine in 5v5s etc there is even more that depending on where the fight take place jg/river/lane etc...
Idk it feels more like Riot bias/neglect with this issue. I feel like they could easily do what most bruiser items already do and just make these items not as strong on melee characters as they are on ranged ones.
Completely agree it’s such a easy solution that would only benefit adc’s and nerf yas, yone, and trynd who are clearly riots favorites (mainly yas and yone)
Same, I’ve been saying this since last season. Especially for the mythic items that are designed for ADCs to be safer like Shield-bow… but then Yone takes this defensive item and uses it to become unkillable with a huge shield and life steal. Insane. It’s just fundamentally a misuse of that item specifically and it would take minimal effort to have it be XX% less effective on Melee champions.
Or just make separate melee and ranged items altogether. The current item system is sort of ridiculous when you think about it. How is a sword helping Jhin do more damage with his bullets? HOW?!
Hot take: What if items like Immortal Shieldbow got a melee nerf so it only impacts melee ADCs and not marksmen? I mean, we have nerfs on Hullbreaker and Divine Sunderer, etc. for ranged champions. IS got nerfed because of Yone, Irelia, and Yasuo but they got a buff right after leaving ADCs with a weaker mythic.
@@ioiioooio193 The whole "Marksmen must be weak or Melee ADCs must be overpowered." take. It's utter fucking nonsense. Tryndamere was dogshit in Season 2, where ADCs fired nuclear warheads and carried teamfights literally by themselves. Riot FUCKED UP MONUMENTALLY giving Yasuo and Yone double crit for LITERALLY NO REASON, and marksmen were nerfed into the fucking ground, ever since. Just force them to build more crit items. Boom. Fixed. Now if they're weak, you can buff them without destroying the game again.
The thing people love with melee adc is they're less reliant on their support, less punishable for a mistakes and having more outplay potential. With traditional ad you need a buttload of gold to reach powerspike, you're more reliant on your teammates and support to not fk up the your lane or their lane until then. Then one positioning mistake in teamfight can result in instant grey screen and your 10 minutes of farming can go down into the drain.
This is why riot should stop nerfing ranged interactions with items. Let adcs built items without CRIT chance or attack spped if they want. They should allow versatility when they allow shit like melee adcs go unnerfed.
@@gkarak1996 My humble opinion, please don't kidnap my brother just because i say it, is that adcs should be allowed to be versatile, but still on a crit build, because is the only way they can have most of geir power in auto attacks. That's the way they were designed to be. The mythic items did this by giving option to be a mobile champion and giving a dash, a tank melter, or to survive a nocturne ult. You're right that they should have more options, but let them in the crit category. Only the on hit adcs should go for other stuff that's still made for adcs. Here are some item concepts that might do this: An anti armor item, since everyone can by Armor boots and take no damage from them would be an item that makes 75% of your crit damage to ignore armor. Then an item with a spell shield like the ones for assasins and mages to avoid losing to mages that miss all their skill shots in a fight just to press their win fight button on you. Then a reversed litch bain (did i write it right?) would be one that makes the next damaging ability after a basic attack to deal bonus AD damage.
@@gkarak1996 then what will be the point of even playing melees imagine if cait/xayah/vayne has the durability of jax/rene/camile then what is even the point of melees everyone one will play adcs in every role bec of range adv.
@@MohamedHossam-mn5cg you know about which interactions I speak about. For example why on hit effects on an item are lower value on ranged champions like frost gauntlet. It is not about durability .
I remember a time when marksmen started using death’s dance to reduce damage taken (like burst). Riot then adjusted the passive so that ranged champions get less damage reduction from the item than melee champions. I think if we want to balance marksmen with melee ADCs (without inflating or deflating one or the other), we should do something similar to that with crit items.
I wanna see the crit mythics or maybe IE have a seperate scaling for ranged vs melee like bork, tsunderer, hullbreaker, etc. Make them able to spike midgame still but give them less damage.
I think making that big of a change in the game is overdoing it when you can simply tone down or mini-rework those who are responsible. Also you would be killing all the meme builds of crit based builds on champ that do not use it.
Imagine if there was a ranged only item that gave us double crit. Give it low AD, but Double crit. So building it 2nd or 3rd gives you a huge boost to crit chance. It would be an alternative to IE.
I commented this a while ago when you brought this subject up the first time but I feel it bears repeating: We already have a fully functional, crit-friendly melee ADC in the game. His name is Xin Zhao, and if he goes full crit, he does damage out the wazoo but - understandably - suffers in terms of durability if he goes down that route. The real problem with melee ADC's is that they get free crit, which in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but since they share items with ranged ADC's it means you can never change the latter without monstrously overpowering the former. Crit amp needs to go; going for crit on a melee champ should be a tradeoff, not a free powerspike. "Oh but they do less crit damage" - if this is your counterargument, kindly remain silent. Their increased crit chance is worth way more than the loss in crit modifier.
They also hit harder anyhow and their spells actually do something. Both windshitters have hard cc and assassin level burst while also having as much raw dps as any marksman.
@@DefinitelyNotReal627 This is also true. Very few marksmen have versatile kits, and even those who do can't compare to Wind Wall, Zed Ult (except it's your E...) and immortality.
My question is what's stoping Riot from making ADC items change depending if you are melee or range(like passive dmg from BOTRK) Like there is many items that have this kind of thing, it would allow them to balance both melee and range separately. If one item is problem on Windshiters but is fine on normal ADC then just nerf it only on melee champs with this mechanic. It exist in the game so why dont they use it?
@@martinator_videns ye and just generaly fixed many Issues with balance. Lets take current livesteal/vamp nerf on marksmen items, as we all can deduce it propably to nerf irelia and other champs that abuse it but this change also nerfs a lot of other champs Kalista. With dividing stats betwen melee and range they could savetly nerf those items for Irelia and others without nerfing our sad kalista. (Discusion whether these changes actually are actually for Irelia and not also for range champs or if those changes will even affect her is for a difrent time)
@@lorymiharu yea its sadly reocuring thing with Riot. Most of A time they just dont care for smaller problems or big problems regarding unpopular champs/things.
it may be that riot doesnt care enough to balance the champions, but i bet because of a CertaiN region containing their highest player count that goes absolutely apeshit for anything windshitter related, riot is literally monetarily INCENTIVIZED to not balance the champions. riot is prioritizing making a bag over balance, which is kinda par for the course really.
Some context for that Barrel clip: Solarbacca had 20% Crit Chance, and 324 AD from 3 complete items (Essence, Prowlers, Muramana). 4 times out of 5 the barrel would've done ~800 dmg, then Tyler could've flashed away and lived (maybe). The RNG gods were kind to give us this legendary moment
Just for clarification Vars, if these melee ADC champs were to be completely moved away from crit to become light fighters like Fiora, Riven, Jax, would you say that ADC's could then be buffed? I feel like marksmen are weak, but more because the environment of 5v5 solo/duo queue hurts them, ex. support miscommunicates, ally team drafts only 1 peel, both teams locking in 2+ slayers; all of that warrants a system change in my eyes, not ADC crit stat buffs
you clearly dont understand the triangle of balance then, you cannot buff adc while cringebow is in the game, cause riot though its a good idea countering an entire class designed to beat adc with an item. as long thats in the game they cannot buff adc or you will witness adc meta and that is not only boring, but its a meta were slayers and assins cant do there job anymore and the gane is just a 3 peel 2 adc or 3 peel and adc + mage. diversity is gone. also if you move winshitters away from crit they need a complet balance overhall, just remember rework akali and think if you want that to the game.
@@nsreturn1365 but assassins have way more options in completely negating their counters, QSS on melee, edge of night and death's dance are completely anti-game items that are essentially shieldbow to melee carries
@@nsreturn1365 i think comps would prob still be 2 slayers an assassin and a mage support because buffing adcs wont fix the core issue of everyone trying to solo-carry including their support
@@baptistecochennec5956 Jax maybe, but Fiora and Riven's damage isn't from their auto attacks, it's from their abilities, the equivalent more like an artillery mage than ADC
@@phoenixfire9176 Yeah the only real problem with Yasuo anymore is that he can drop windwall directly on himself with a very generous window to act, as much as I hate Samira's windwall I will admit it takes more skill and should be how Yasuo's windwall acts as well, other than that he's a fairly tame champ compared to Yone who can miss all his abilities mid game and still manage to get a kill on squishy champs and then go right back to his real body safe and sound, because that invalidates the whole weakness of rush down champs, having to think ahead to how you're gonna get out of danger after rushing your target down.
@@snowpegasi nice argumentations, however imo, samira’s W (I think it’s W) takes less skill than the windwall, since there is a big difference between a good ww and a mediocre one: to play ww at its maximum potential you have to Constantly dance around it while attacking and maintain melee distance, and a a yasuo main, it is maybe the hardest thing to properly do with a yet mechanical champ like he is. Instead with samira you just need timing, which is required also with wind wall.
@@snowpegasi ????????????????????????????????????????? NO SHOT you just said samiras WW takes more skill ITS AOE!!! WHAT LOL she doesnt have to do anything other than press W yasuo at least has to aim W in the right direction.
@@ryry8533 Sorry I meant timing wise, not coverage wise, my bad, the 360 wind wall is still cancer, I just have a problem with how long Yasuo's wind wall stays down, it kinda negates burst mages, which wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact Yasuo has so many other things going for him into those matchups on top of that.
As someone for whom Yasuo is the 2nd or 3rd most played champ, i wholeheartedly agree the crit passive is dumb, I'd rather have a more fun mechanic, maybe an empowered ability passive? .... Also if they remove the wind wall and give me something more fun and interactive, I'm down for it
Idk what those last 2 comments were...........Anyway, if you are serious I appreciate your honesty with your favorite characters. It's been very difficult for players to admit when their character is so problematic.
I think the problem is that Yone and Yasuo are strong early and late which a lot of the time just feels incredibly unfair to play against, especially if you play a mid/late game champion yourself. If you take for example a mage, can't usually oneshot pre 6, Yone/Yasuo win early because they can skirmish better and they win mid and late because they build crit. Even if the mage player plays smart and holds his CC Yone can just jump through as his abilities can't get stopped midway. Of course I am not denying that range isn't a factor, a lot of mages can poke the ever living f out of Yone and Yasuo but they usually just heal it all back up with lifesteal. Building anti-heal or anti-shield also is not working as you have less damage with these items and won't be able to win the skirmish because a lack of damage. The only champions that actually feel somewhat able to deal with yone or yasuo are other melee marksman or an assassin that can oneshot them early on. I would say these are the main reasons these 2 are annoying to play against, or at least why I find them annoying.
There's no point where Yasuo and Yone are objectively weak or easy to punish. They start strong, and keep getting exponentially stronger. That is, I think, the fundamental problem with them, and why there's memes about "0/12 yasuo powerspike". You don't HAVE to play the wind brothers perfectly to be incredibly difficult to deal with, but you DO have to play your mage champion perfectly to not int. You have options with battle mages and zone-control burst mages (Anivia, Annie, Vex, to some extent Lux and Xerath from my own champ pool), but those champions do not scale in the same way and HAVE to build 'counter items' like Zhonyas and Morello, when the Wind brothers don't HAVE to build magic resist to still be able to rush us down but still have the option to do so to become more difficult to handle.
@@lh8263 Yeah you still need almost a full team with like 85% of all champions to deal with them and itemizing doesn't really do anything as buying anti-heal or anti-shield is way less damage and makes you weaker than the 2 even if you have the same amount of items. Not saying that there are no ways of winning against them but more often than not you need some specific anti-carry to deal with them (from my personal experience I would recommend cho gath for this, you win early trades with e alone and later you just eat them). The problem is that most champions just can't win against those 2 as they scale harder and get powerspikes earlier which is just incredibly frustrating. Worst thing i've seen so far was a gp with 4 items and a yone with 2 items hitting everything on each other and yone winning.
@@Tall-Hobbit I'm actually quite comfortable against Yasuo by now. He's the less annoying one. While I would prefer to play Lissandra or Annie or Malzahar against him, I can still win with my main Lux. Yone I can stomp with Vex and Annie, and it's a coin toss with Lux but I haven't practiced the others as much into him. One of the few upsides of the wind brothers is that their overloaded kits and easy of use means players end up with inflated elo. You've got people with macro and decision making that is way below their rank, so you CAN outplay them most of the time. It's just whether the outplay is enough to overcome all their stupid free stats.
I'll be honest I would be fine with these champs if they didn't get amplified crit where they get to build less crit like for example all yas and yone need is one crit item then IE and also more fury trynn has more crit he does
@@GattlingCombo they absolutely would be playable without a crit amp. They would just be more punishable for taking traditionally bad fights. Its just my 2 cents but I actually think they just need more ways to be played around than to be truly gutted, and I don't think removing the crit amp counts as gutting them
Same, i actually play yasuo a lot, i wouldn't mind if they change his crit passive and even remove the wind wall.. I like his dashes and his Q into ultimate plays and whatnot, in fact the moment i picked him i thought the wind wall was a cheesy ability
They tried to copy the "Carry" category in DotA in that game, both melee and range can be carry to some extends. however, they did not think through that the main stats in DotA and LoL are not the same.
We have items that can only be bought by Melee champs. Why not just make specific items for ranged champs and only they can buy them? That would prevent melees from abusing these items, it's the same thing that happened with melee only items. It's something that I always think and don't understand why Riot wouldn't do it.
Y'know how all of the "desinged for melee" items have a reduced efectiveness for ranged champs while not specifically restricting them from buying any of said items (the 30%melee/16%ranged kinda splitted effectiveness) i really think adc items should have the same effect but inversed, the nerfed version of shieldbow should only be nerfed for melee users, galeforce's dash should be shorter for melee, and kraken's atk speed scaling should also be lowered just for melee.
i think it all comes down to the main problem of league in the first place: the requirement to ruin someone's fun to win take CC for example: it is singlehandedly the most powerful tool in league because it stops the champions from doing anything melee adcs, because they are short ranged, need some sort of nullification of weaknesses to be viable, and more often than not, it is done in an unfun and uninteractive way examples include master yi Q, tryndamere R, yasuo windwall, yone E AND R, viego passive and possession, even gp Q has to be ranged because they want these characters to build full damage, they end up just removing design barriers by adding toxic abilities into their kit and inherently, the problem with marksmen is that they are too honorable, too noble, and, dare i say it, too outdated most, if not all, of their toxic abilities (like CC or explosive damage) come in the form of skillshots or delayed damage take varus R and his blight stacks (1.5 second delay before the big damage), jhin and his fourth shot, ezreal and his Q, as for an example that goes against this rule, Ashe R is one of the most toxic abilities a normal adc has because it can serve as a semi-instant stun and can also be used at long range for a 10 year long stun (i say normal because samira also has W but everyone knows that shit is toxic and had to be gutted) tl;dr champions are becoming more oppressive in nature, removing the opponent's ability to play in order to stay relevant marksman unfortunately do not have this luxury to be oppressive due to power budget being mostly in their range
I remember when some items were gated based on range. If riot decides to gate adc mythics to ranged champs and make another set of mythics for melee's, we could circumvent the catch 22 almost entirely. The adc mythics could get buffed to make adcs less embarrassing and have the melee's commit somewhat fewer war crimes after min 5
Locking shieldbow to ranged champs would be a good first step. Overall, marksman need a massive class overhaul to buff their survivability. In return, they can have less scaling.
But then they would be useless. At no point would they be able to kill a bruiser if you reduce their scaling. I'm no adc main, by I fell that for how much they can do late game, the price they pay seems fair.
@@mokitboy5283 when was the last time you saw late game ? And usually, even at late game, I'd rather face a jinx than a yone as the former can be oneshot by an assassin.
@@tecshield690 im gold, so i get to see late game more often than others. And i do agree, but i think yone is on a different tier than the other ones, he just doenst make sense. late game i rather face a trynda, yasuo than full buid vayne/jinx
Points to you my man, whenever talking about crit you really need to think about the 3 champs in your thumbnail first. I also appreciate that you value range as a powerful stat, something that you really only notice as you go higher up the ladder. Good job on the video, keep up the good work!
I think crit system can be balanced so that items have different effects for ranged/melee users like S10 deaths dance. Out of the roster you've listed, the only champions that feel terrible to play against are Tryndamere, Yi and Viego, not because of their damage, but because of how easily they have access to "invuln" phases.
6:10 that's exactly why imo the cosmic+force of nature changes made other classes able to keep up so much more easily since they can invest in that as counterplay stats that genuinely improve a champions gameplay, maybe I'm just bias cuz I play singed and anivia haha
Only that hydra can be bought my ranges champions. The maind reason riot is trying to reduce the amount of these items is because of shapeshifters like Gnar and Jayce who might potentially build them at some point, but woulod not be able to use them when changing form.
Imagine going against a Yasou adc and a Pantheon support because I went against them once and they really ruin the game for me. My support once said we're ahead since he is 0-4 but went from there to 16-7 really quick. Once they reach 6, they started snowballing and it's not fun at all.
Personally, I think all of this comes from the constraint that "ranged ADCs" HAVE TO be created in a VERY particular way and ALL have the exact same weaknesses and strengths. ALL building the EXACT same items. ADCs strengths and weaknesses are relative to each other. Saying Vayne is "weak" early game JUST because people like Caitlyn can bully her is incorrect because both of them are shitty early game relative to other characters. ADCs are like in a bubble where you have to pick between Ken vs Ryu.ADCs have the most stale design and honestly require a massive rework if you want to fix the ADC problem. Look at other MOBAs like dota, where you can have ranged carries be wildly different design/abilities with all different niches from early/mid/late game. With a large multitude of options depending on the game. Ashe counterpart in dota "drow ranger" specializes in attacking from max range, perma slowing, and then pushing back/silencing. Clearly her role is to kite and has strong matchup against squishy mages but get's dunked on by teleporters/people trying to bum rush her. Then you have huskar which is an ULTRA TANKY, super regen diving into enemy team ADC. Which has entirely different set of strengths and weaknesses compared to drow ranger.
@@DzinkyDzink I'm not going to go into detail since I gave two examples and you can look up the character list yourself. But a few examples would be: Morphling, Arc Warden, Weaver, Templar Assassin, Medusa, Shadowfiend, Gyrocopter, Drow Ranger, Huskars. Even though all of them are ranged carries, they all have different playstyles and massively different matchups and weaknesses vs the other cast.
and btw if you are talking about crit master yi you mean kraken guinso and then tank yes? because literaly no one is building infinity you are going lathality early master or rarely dusk blade>colector>essence>infinity>ldr something like that but i think that counts more as lethality and there is second twice more powerfull build but you need to scale and you just go kraken>guinso>sterack>titanic>wits end>panthom or BT or maybe blackcleaver, maw
You're right about melee carries screwing with item balance. A few patches ago, they decided that Yasuo and Yone q needed a buff to ad scaling because shieldbow got nerves. Which basically meant that they were unaffected by a nerf to an item that was intentionally done to nerf the users of said item. Like yasuo and yone.
But I thought the nerfs to shieldbow for that patch were in the shield and not in the ad? A direct counter nerf In that case would have been to give the wind bros a buff to some form of their defensive stats?
@@belphegren2062 If you give more damage than before then you have way more damage to simply pop off someone in an instant. They are slightly weaker to assassins, but they get burstier against every1 else, bruh
Once again, I feel like Dota would have been a better compairson than Smash on the topic of balancing melee and ranged dps characters for a Moba But hey, write what you know I guess
So, my friends and I have been talking about this issue for a while. we think that riot should do something akin to Smite. That being, that Riot should focus primarily on splitting the items evenly for each class, Reclassify the champions if they have to, but simply give each class some defensive options and some offensive options and let them pick and choose from that pool rather than allowing them to build anything they want. That way, if they balance one class, it doesn't hurt the others. Smite honestly has the best solution for preventing item abuse imo. It's like, they nerfed Turbo Chemtank cause assassins were building it... if they don't want assassins to build it, then why even let them in the first place? All it did was hurt tanks who built it like Singed. Stuff like that is why i think they should shift it more towards Smite's system.
So look into my eyes and tell me, why to i have to read my oponnent's skillshots to not get murdered in lane whilst yasuo just needs to walk and not think about his enemy in lane? why does he get so much for free? A character, for example, jax doesn't have better range than him, has to fight ranged characters a lot also, doesnt get free mobility, has mana costs, and does not get a shield just by walking and a long range attack like the hurricane, no free crit also
I think what I think would solve the ADCs problem the most would be to make crit items have better values when used on marksmen, like fighter items that have a nerfed version for ranged champions. An idea that I found interesting, would be some passive on the item that works according to the champion's range, like the less range, less damage and more attack speed or the more range, more damage and less attack speed. Another idea would be for mythical crit items to have some passive that works from the amount of crit chance coming from the items and not from passives that increase it (like yasuo, yone, trynda and senna), in addition to preventing champions like irelia, between others use the shieldbow, since she doesn't buy critical items anymore, so only buying one, so it would benefit her to buy more than one and nerf whoever has less items.
I don't think that will stop Yone or Yasuo. Intent (their passive) goes beyond crit. Every instance they build beyond 100% crit they get additional AD instead. If they want, they can just keep building crit since going beyond 100% is just as viable as staying at 100%.
I feel like Riot has kind of dug themselves into a hole with Melee ADCs. Especially with the wind brothers and the fact that crit is on theme for them. I do think melee adc's should exist, I really don't like how stale league's lane setup and roles are, but I also think the problem adcs can't exist the way they are now. Trynd needs a rework, wind brothers can't have double crit (especially for so cheap). Not sure about yi and GP though, yi is heavily a stat checker, and GP does have skill expression with barrel knowledge.
The issue with removing double crit from yasuo and yone though is that crit is a part of their champion identity at this point. Removing crit from them would be like removing lifesteal/being a vampire from vlad. You just can't do it. And you can't remove their double crit scaling either, because then they become completely and utterly useless. Expecting meelee champs to build 5 crit items to be useful is simply impossible, as they would be completely unplayable and get destroyed by every single marksman/mage in existence with no counterplay.
@@billyjones2206 Definitely, I could have been more explicit, but that's what I was trying to get at with "Riot has kind of dug themselves into a hole with Melee ADCs. Especially with the wind brothers and the fact that crit is on theme for them." The effect is absolutely broken and likely wasn't necessary, but they're stuck now because it's part of the character identity. Riot *could* give more downside to double crit, or they could change how crit benefits the brothers, but I'm not sure what that would look like off the top of my head.
@@billyjones2206 But I will say I highly doubt that removing double crit would make them useless.The brothers already have so much value from the rest of their kit, especially including lack of resource.
Yone is my main for the mid lane tbh and honestly I would love to see him and Yasuo reworked a bit to instead of getting inhanced crit maybe they scale off of hp? Like its very minor scaling but their passive gives bonus hp for the attack damage they build like 1% hp off every 50 atk dmg? Snd their passive says they no longer can gain crit, then make their Q's Cooldown either just go down with leveling it up now or make it scale with somethign else that skirmishers build, either hp in some minor fashion or atk dmg or even maybe armor snd magic resist? Idk I would love to see it tho cuz yone especially has a good amount of cc so i would love to see him more built like Riven or Jax or even more Juggernaut like Sett
The unfortunate truth is that Riot wants to make League of Legends games faster. In order to truly excel and carry in games, especially in Masters+ is that you MUST win lane. If you go even then the game feels horrible for ADCs. Most games are generally over by 25 minutes and by the time that happens, there is a chance that the opposing team or your team is already fed. That's why the Korean servers are notoriously known for short games.
Backloaded crit items such as PD are an answer. They probably wont solve everything, but they might go a long way to fixing the problem as ranged adcs get way more autos in per fight. Instead of making every class a swiss army knife, it would be better to focus on their strengths and making that shine. In this case, play into ranged adcs' relative strength in consistent damage in team fights instead of making it so they are better at dueling which they shouldn't really be particularly good at, otherwise why would you ever pick any class. Some ideas for this might be to make kraken have lower base damage, but make the true damage increase every time you proc it until you leave combat, or make galeforces damage work similar to kalista's e, where the damage increases based on the number of autos you land in combat. Another option is active preemptive defense items such as zhonyas or stoneplate (imagine an adc version of it). Because they are further away, they have more time to react and potentially denying lethal burst damage/ buying time for peel. Imagine you catch them with a stun after you both finished mythics, you cant just nuke them because they survive with shieldbow, heal off minions and then beat ur ass because you already blew your cooldowns including ur ult. Now imagine if shieldbow's shield was an active, they either react in time to use it just before they get stunned, but then you just hold ur ult, back off and if you stun them again, you can punish hard. This still retains their survivability (mostly) for teamfights, where they actually need the added survivability. To simply write off crit items as a catch 22 is a bit lazy and unimaginative, because, as mentioned in this video, ranged adcs do have a significant advantage, and to allow them to flourish without breaking melee adc's is to play into them.
The problem with reactive defensives for ADCs is two-fold: It heightens the skill floor for an already difficult class, and it also doesn't consistently help against the classesthey need that defense against - slayers and burst mages. A reactive defense against Slayers is often equal to no defense, because they can kill you faster than many players can react, and it is only helpful against very select burst mages. It would HAVE to be activable during cc but tbh I think an automatic defense makes more sense for 99% of players.
@@lh8263 If you're positioning in a way where you can't press 1 button before you get bursted (i.e. facechecking bushes), you kinda do deserved to die. The claim that you can't react is demonstrably false because of the existence of zhonyas, a reactive defensive item for mages (often similarly as squishy if not more so), that is arguably the best item in the game. Slayers and burst mages usually need anywhere from 2-5 seconds to close the gap and unload their combo to kill you. When Vars says that they can kill you before you can react, it is technically true in the sense that if you dont have flash, you cannot escape them, but it is very misleading. Take blitz hook for example (technically not a slayer or burst mage, but if you get hooked you get one shot so, close enough) it may be hard to react in time to side step it, but it is very easy to flash on reaction to dodge it. Active defensive items work in a similar way. On the note of being able to use them during cc, that negates the point of them being preemptive to getting combo'ed to death.
Let’s make shieldbow into two different items instead, one for life steal and the other for the shield. Burst is the current issue right now and not poke, so having a mythic with just the shield and the AD passive would be really beneficial for ADC’s I imagine. Where as for the melee crit skirmishers like Viego and the wind shitters, life steal would give them that sustain they need to succeed later on without the giant fucking shield. Having both in one item in my opinion kills the itemization with these champs.
“Then they’d fucking suck” honestly, I genuinely would not mind these melee adcs being nerfed to the ground for just a tiny bit of relevance being given back to adcs. I think I speak for at least 80% of the player base when I say it sucks having these champs in your games. Either you win bc they reached 3 items first, or you lose because the player went 0/10. Or you win bc the enemy melee adc went 0/10 or you lose bc they just steamrolled your team. I can probably count on one hand the number of times a game with Yasuo or Yone in it wasn’t won or lost 90% as a consequence of their sheer existence. And I don’t think any champion or class of champions should be given that sort of sway in a game.
As an adc this video hits different, another champ I kind of wished to see in this video was graves (I know he isn’t “melee” but it’s hard to count him as an adc either) but this stemmed the thought of 2 other adc topic ideas that being about how and what riot has to do to make a marksman not botlane (graves, Quinn, Akshan, and Kindred) or how marksman have recently started going lethality because crit items take too long to be useful. Anyways always a good day when I see a new vid for you mr. Streamer and I hope y’all have a good day
Do you think crit items should 25 percent crit cuz back in season 10 you would have room for a defensive or could go 75 percent crit and have 2 defensives and still have damage,season 11 and 12 feels like stuck in the same build path of five crit items just to have damage or to then building lethality to get those spikes of damage earlier,to which i feel i had more variety in season 10 before mythics were a thing
@@hcorvnov6732 to be honest I don’t know how to fix adc without a major overhaul. One idea I’ve always thought about was increasing just the raw power of items to force the non-adcs like these melee crit builders to either opt into straight damage or defense while overall improving adcs. But this is terrifying because I feel like they have tried this and has failed miserably and everyone just buyed a couple of adc items then bought their own situational items for their champs (2 examples were the gale force-collector and the immortal-essence meta), which sadly I think the idea of increasing crit chance would fall into this trap.
I was playing Samira with a Swain support. We were both fed plus the jungler, Xin zhao. The only fed person on the enemy team was irelia. She won the game even though we tried to catch her 1v3, 1v2. I lost my mind and uninstalled the game. They are the reason adc get nerfed in 10.26.
Same exact scenario recently, everyone on our team looking 3/1 or better and the only person losing is top with 1/6, we caught out the 6/3 Irelia like 3-4 times as 3-4 people and lost every fight, two of us had grievous, one person had anathema's chains on her, she would only stun one of us on average and we still lost every fight. Im still salty to this day.
Yep this sums it up. Ever since melees and Mages started randomly going bot lane I haven’t had much fun and pretty much entirely switched to ARAM. It’s just like how much more can you do to end the fun of the only role I like riot?
Honestly, I've given it thought before and I feel that Crit mythics should be what gives the following items crit as their mythic passive. And lethality the same. That way AD champs have more item freedom like mages do. 2nd item GA because the whole enemy team is AD assassins? Sure, and you still don't slow your damage by 70%, just 40%ish the way Zhonyas does (don't come at me for my math, I'm not gonna try to run numbers, just the idea of it) Why should I be punished cause I'm the only champ that can't get a stopwatch item till last? For gimmick items like collector, they could still have their passive be something like the item gives lethality with the crit mythic and vise versa. This may require a rework to lethality, but it seems healthier than limiting every lethality build to the same 3 items into either crit or manamune.
As a Yone main, the main reason why Melee ADCs seem to be polarizing is due to the fact that they are, well, melee. Their mobility is excellent, yes, and it may seem like they can dash across the map with ease, but at the end of the day, they still have to be in your face to do damage. And being in your face with crit items is... how you say... not a smart idea. The whole idea of crit items is that they are pure damage, with little to no defenses to speak of. That, combined with a class who cannot even afford to attack from a safe distance thanks to their melee attack range, makes for a balance disaster The only reason Yone and Yas are even remotely viable is because of Shieldbow; same with Phantom Dancer in earlier seasons. If you are Challenger Faker 1v9 smurf to pro level, then you can make Galeforce Yone work by dodging problematic skillshots every time. But at the end of the day, Yone and Yas are too squishy due to the items they are forced to build first, making their scaling and overall playstyle very strange compared to other champs. As much as people like to pretend, Yone W and Yas passive are not enough to protect them from getting bursted down by even the least burst oriented bruisers. The concept of their itemization forces them down a strange build path, where they are forced to fight in close quarters with the items least suited to do so, making them... interesting to balance, especially in regard to whatever item is able to provide suitable damage and defenses to make them at the very least able to tank a little bit of damage before biting the dust
If you want talk about Yone, but Yasuo has his windwall, the shield from his passive, a lot of dashes to get closer, AND on top of that he can use Immortal shieldbow for the life steal, the crit and the extra shield. Wich that item had to be nerfed BECAUSE of Yasuo and Yone, the gigant shield Yasuo had with Shieldbow and his passive plus the lifesteal made hin ridiculous, now ADC's with Shieldbow have to get the nerf on their survivability item because of how absurd were the shields that yasuo got
"My name is Vars. Through the power of social media, I'm talking to all of you. All the content was uploaded, the shitstorm within reddit has began its course. My aim is to protect the NA server, where I have grinded and raged. I will crush Yone with the power of my salty video essays, until he is removed from the game due to popular demand."
"No, I don't want that! Yone finding way to be balanced? I want him to be my modern champion design strawman and no one else for the rest of LoL's days. Even after I quit social medias ... I want to hate him for a while. Ten years at least!! I want him to be overloaded... I really do but... agh... yeah... shieldbow..."
i think something that is missing from this discussion is how riot gave adcs a two item spike with ie second and then nerfed crit damage scaling for adcs to lessen that spike and then when the item rework happened they moved that spike once again to 3/4 items and only ever compensated yasuo yone and trynd who can still build it at the same time they used to before the changes.
A way to balance Yasuo and Yone would be to replace their crit scaling with something else. What if we would replace that second passive with something else to favorize a more fighter build? My ideas: Yasuo: What if he would replace it with bonus attack speed scaling with AD, so by building a fighter build you'll have some max HP and the ad would increase both your damage and attack speed. Yone: What if instead of his AP damage equal to 1/4 of his aa damage (half of the secong aa) to turn into magic damage based on MAX health, so both his AD and AP damage increases with this type of items. Yasuo would have more atrack speed while Yone would deal the damage AD like a regular fighter while dealing the same amount of AP damage. So double damage... still same damage as before from crit chance. Tell me if you wanna hear a Tryndamere rework as well :)
@@OmarHDGamer It's shame that they did Yone's abilities similar to Yasuo. It would have been better if they did him unique and give him a more demon theme. They should've made different build path to show their not the same person.
Thats right, range is the most powerful stats, melee walks in they get stunned and they die, I agree. But whats up with them having loads of cc on their own?? whats up with the assassin having multiple dashes and bursts on top of that AOE teamfight crowed control?? Yummi dies when she gets cc, talks like other enchanters dont. People die if they get killed.
I think "critical chance" should be replaced with a general boost to auto-attack (and specific abilities) (like guinsoo but not "on-hit") and maybe should scale up a bit like "lethality" (but with a different gradient between melee and ranged)
Imo, they could give the windshitters a sorta Pyke and Senna thing, they can't build crit, but passively gain it per level or some other way, but passively gain it in some way, so that way they scale up along with their other melee counterparts and still keep their crit identities, and open room to balance Crit items around solely marksmen. Maybe they could also give them a new passive, basically give them a mythic passive in their kits, when they buy items, gain crit%, and have it be enough so they'll hit healthy powerspikes equal to their other melee brethren
A lot of this comes from the fact that in League of Legends defense and mobility are supplemented with gold, but range is not. This causes ranged characters to have a very different relationship with items than defense or mobility oriented characters. A tank or diver is going to be investing gold into being able to survive or engage so that they can start using their stats and abilities on the opponents. You can make choices about whether to invest more in damage or defense based on the game state or team comps. A ranged character basically has all of the range they will have for the entire game at level 3, with possibly a little more at level 6. This means that all of their gold is dumped into damage or support so that their abilities and autos have more impact when they land. The characters simply must scale differently because their will not be gaining more of their primary agency stat from items, but they instead be gaining lots of their primary role/effect stat. If Jinx had to purchase range or Yasuo had sufficient built in defense just from his kit, the situation would be very different.
As a marksman main, I agree that range is the only thing that works in our favor and because of that, were usually the squishy. I also agree that for skirmishers, they need something built in their kit to sustain/gap-close when in teamfights so they don't die easily. As for crit chance items on melee champions, that should not be a thing. Because of melee characters, such as Yasuo and Yone, that only need to build 2 crit items out of 5 total items (not including boots) for them to maximize their DPS is unbalanced; where as marksman needs 4-5 crit items. Irelia and Jax might as well make the game unplayable if they had abilities that stack with crit scaling. Other melee skirmishers, like Yi and Fiora, are more acceptable to build other items and still able to carry. The main issues are: there aren't many items that doesn't have crit chance with physical damage and/or attack speed, there are too many hurdles (characters) in the game to jump threw for marksman to be strong again. When the items rework happened, I was honestly excited to see the new items and how they function, but now it's gotten to the point where it's the same issue as before of what Riot was trying to fix, there's not much diversity. And now, some items are better with other champions than whom they're intended for. My solutions/ideas are either: obviously make new innovated items and instead of mythic items giving stat boosts, make it so each classes have unique stat boost. Riot somewhat hit the mark when they made Shadowflame for mages that need an anti-shield item, so why can't they make more items how Runann's Hurricane is specifically for marksman or modify crit items to be like Death's Dance or BORK? Lethal Tempo might as well be an attack speed item, like Rapid Firecannon, except on steroids.
I feel like a possible fix for crit chance being so hard to balance would be change it to crit damage. I think it would work well removing some RNG from the game that can cause unfair situations. maybe need to reduce the crit damage from 175 to like 150 or something if it is too op
I feel like there’s a super easy solution to the “whatever items marksmen build, melee adcs use it better”, and it’s been staring us in the face: Just create an item with better stats/effects for ranged champs. There are 100 million items that (rightly) have a clause like (+12% melee / 6% ranged). Just create some items that have a clause the inverse of that
idea: restrictions on the effects crit items grant melee champions. e.g. make shieldbow grant a smaller shield to melees or let ie provide the extra crit damage for melees once they reach 100 crit chance instead of the usual 60
would probably help a ton but let's not forget the blatant favoritism Riot has for the windshitters, it wasn't too long ago that they gutted Shieldbow for a bit because Yone and Yasuo were too strong with it and then gave them compensation buffs in the same patch invalidating the nerf anyways while screwing over ADCs.
What we need is more "Ranged Champions only" itmes, maybe with unique effects that basically only marksmen would have uses for- Idk- maybe a "attacking at more range = a slight amount more damage" kinda stuff- but having those items falling off towards the lategame- maybe like base physical damage + a TIIIINY amount of bonus AD on top- like additional "10 +2% bonus AD" every 100 units.
I feel the main problem is that the windshitters don't have to trade off for building crit. They spike at one item, reach very high damage potential at two and are then allowed to build defensive items that typical bruisers would build. Which then means you have a 3k hp Yasuo with DDance and Steraks doing the same damage that you'd expect out of a 1.9k hp Jinx with mobility, arguably better utilisation of lifesteal (thanks to q counting as an aa and spell) and utility thanks to his wind wall. OR a Yone with true/hybrid damage, tons of AoE CC and self-shielding. It just feels like they stacked so much into champs that ended up taking the best parts of bruisers and ADCs without the drawbacks of lower damage or squishiness. It's not like yasuo takes no skill (honestly speaking yone really doesn't take NEARLY enough effort to play effectively), but its so infuriating to see them achieve so much for so little drawback.
In my opinion their passives that give them extra crit should just scale with xp. Maybe something like at level 10 they have the full double crit chance but at level 5 it's only increasing their crit by 50% Same thing with trynd. Have his passive give more crit as he levels but not letting it get up to 40% early game. Just a thought
I don't know if something like this has been in the game already and got removed but my solution would be to add new boots, only purchaseable by ranged champions, which amplify your crit chance by 25% or in other words, for every 20% of crit you get through items, it will give you 25%. This would make ranged ADCs powespike even earlier and also leave options open for a defensive last item.
They aren't, people are just still keen on being masochists and picking marksmen for no reason when mages are way better. Idk how people keep wondering how Kai'sa and Ezreal keep finding themselves in decent spots in the game, all you need is one AP scaling and you can abuse the mages' broken items
I'd start by making Yaduo and Yone use mana, reduce their ability crit chance damage like 15% and make some crit items "Ranged champions only", and make new melee crit items that help balance these champions if necessary.
Actually % armor pen is another non-linear scaling stats (and non on hit+ work for other classes) It's reason why tank fall off in lategame, as they go only rezists+hp. Only few of them have 3rd scaling that multiplayer those 2. Ornn passive boost items by like 30%,same malphite w. Other classes have : ap/ad + pen + haste (for tanks it mainly boost dmg/dps).
My biggest problem with melee ADCs is that they tend to deal too much damage while still being relatively safer than most ADCs. - Tryndamere has 5 seconds of invulnerability. - Yasuo ult allows cringebow to be even more effective. - Yone can just screw up really hard and wiff everything, yet still end-up whacking you to death with ease. - Yi just runs you down and his Q allows him to be really safe if they aren't a complete potato (his W also kinda helps with it). I think they should mainly tune down the biggest issues of melee ADCs through items (like cringebow shield + healing) for melee champs (or tune them up for ranged champs).
Riven used to build crit a lot, Vi also can use crit item. If i remember correctly old fiora was good with crit too. I've seen a lot of irelia shieldbow botrk guinsoo dominik. And let's not forget about Shaco and rengar both build 2 crit item most of the time(maybe even more for rengar with the recent patch) My view on yasuo/yone passive. It used to be +100% crit chance but since the mythics it's +150% and you also gain ad if you have more then 100% total crit chance. They sould make them not crit at this point but i think it's also a way to force them to build as least 2 crit item because if they could go any ad item in early it would require an insane amount of balance in their stats and kit
Another solution for wind brothers and potentially the others; if double crit is required to be a midlander, remover it and balance them as bot laners. They already prove it can sometimes work, so just balance them in a way to transition them there. That would then also standardized the items across the bot lane, so you could probably try picking up a new type of champ without having to learn new items or a new lane. If we call them melee adcs, then I say put them bot and balance them around the other bot laners, not the other mid laners.
as an ADC/mage player, the issue I have with yasuo & yone specifically is not their damage or resilience, but the amount of cc they can provide *while dealing that damage*. Q3 into ult locks multiple champions out of control for almost two seconds, and neither tenacity or QSS can reduce it as it's all knockups.
Even though it is quite niche, I would've enjoyed hearing about another champion that can be played with attack damage, crit chance and/or on-hit, and that champion is Shaco. Shaco's playstyle allows him to build crit when he wants to one-tap ennemy carries, and idk if you've ever had a crit shaco in your team but apart from the stupid amount of mobility melee ADC have, he could fit in this category as well (cuz idk if you ever faced one but there is nothing tanking crit shaco's dps with clone)
Gangplank can only build stuff like that because for some reason, not only his gun, but also explosions caused by his gun, somehow classify as his basic attacks.
Vars: "ADCs lose to just about every other class in combat besides maybe enchanters."
Lulu: "Hold my beer."
I love how he says “maybe”
Saraphine as well
Yeah nice meme, unfortunately we know what happens when one of them go sololane and how impossible they are to 1v1.
Soraka > Any adc
@@ifandor1 suuuuuureee nice meme bro.
Another video with yone in the title man this guy must really like yone
Dead sword man attractive and good
Easily one of the most attractive league characters
Dead swordsman daddy
Made the most attractive legend a dead dude with a sword. Like daddy hot
@@jusbetter7634 are you okay?
I think in some way, it isn't that the "Melee ADCs" are restricting traditional ADCs, but rather the entire game as a whole in Riot's design philosophy is restricting ADCs - and THEN the "Melee ADCs" are freed from that restriction.
So, in coordinated pro play, or even elite levels of play, players don't die so often and are relegated to safe farming mostly, players are competent, care about team composition, and work together ideally speaking. In such an environment ADCs thrive, to have a real support and real teammates, and they look very powerful in those games.
To balance for that play, where a team needs an ADC to takes towers and objectives and all fights - Riot balances them for that.
Then after that has been established for a long time, I think the "Melee ADCs" or crit-based melee champions, are just more designed to be freed from those constraints.Yes Tryndemere and Master Yi are just outdated, old and simple and beat you with stats. Yasuo is infamous, leading to his brother but....I think Yone is a result of the feature/power-creep they have in their design philosophy nowadays more than some overarching "plan" to ruin ADCs by making melee ADCs better. It DOES feel shitty that the Wind brothers have an easier time and spike earlier, but I bet you that is only because of the double crit-chance.
You didn't mention in the video, an ADC's crit only gets as good as the random chance. No other item class does that! Imagine if you as a mage bought Luden's Echo/Tempest and it says "has a 20% chance to work" that would be kind of shitty that you don't know when the item will do its function?
For ADC's you're buying an item that *may* give you damage 20% of the time, so you have to keep stacking that item until you can reliably do damage 80%-100% of the time. Yasuo and Yone's passive just skip that AND have room for extra items. Wow, 100% crit chance AND I can fit in GA and Death's dance? What ADC doesn't wish they can do that? I'd kill to have 100% crit on Xayah, AND have Death's Dance AND GA.
As far as I know, Riot has implemented a system that guarantees you to get the - let's say - 20% of your crit chance. If you attack 5 times, a 20% crit chance means u will crit one of those 5 times, but there is still the possibility of all 5 hits not being crits. The system will then gradually increase the chance of your champion hitting a crit to kind of compensate for the preceding hits not being a single crit. So you will definitely get the 20% value, no matter what. And yet, that compensation won't do anything for marksmen if they can't even survive for a second after hitting 5 attacks and none of them being crits. Crit sucks tbh.
@@timkruger6481 ahhhh this must be why tryn has such good crit chances then lol that actually makes so much sense now, and no im not complaining about tryn he is easy to counter just find that interesting
@@timkruger6481 But actually that system is complicated to the point where you have like 3% with 50% crit of not hitting crit 7 times in a row. It's just bullshit, why won't they make it like a kraken passive or something? It would actually require skill and your item will always be effecient. Like for example on botlane when you notice than caitlyn has headshot you avoid getting hit by it, same with empowered vlad q and a hundreds of things in this game.
I remember when wad this item that give a crit is ypu dont attack for 2 seconds and every adc ik the game rush it, why riot dont take and make it a new mythic for adcs where champs talk very low attack speed or high crit dependency can use it like, cuz right now the item is 2800G but almost no adc uses it
@@alejandrourdaneta4685 are you talking about stormrazer?
they should just add more "ranged only" passives to items they want for marksman like runaans
@Masterofwar it wouldn’t be that bad if you think about it, Zeri was a problem because she could build juggernaut items, and that has happened to other champs, but I think that riot won’t do such things, because every champion can build every single item but runnan, because it wouldn’t make sense
@Berthel Braae Kortegaard that takes significantly more work and balance
Since the release of Mythic items, I've always thought that Krakenslayer, Shieldbow and Galeforce should been "ranged only" items. Since the beginning.
It's kind of funny because Riot kind of does the opposite. Lethal Tempo is better for Melee champions then Ranged for example.
@@BittenKitten I totally agree that it would be nice to have ranged and melee specific items, then you have distinct item groupings. A solution, if they'd want to do that, is to add similar items for each class (think grievous wounds items) that are very similar in function, but have distinct differences. As you said, they already do this with some other items (such as runnans). Melee champs also have the tiamat based alternatives to get a similar passive to runnan. It's distinctly different, but both do the whole "hit multiple things" idea well.
Changing 5 or 6 champs to make a whole class viable makes sense. Fiora, Jax, and Riven already exist as templates for those monsters to be reined in. Melee damage dealers need to build some defensive stats to survive, like you said in the video, so it's kind of ridiculous to expect them to build crit first and get their cake too. They are skill based stat checkers, that's a combination that should never exist. Either you're a stat check champ, or an outplay champ; having both is actually toxic and dumb
yone r q your dead late game as an adc
I agree with Yone Yasuo and Viego, but Yi and Trynda are pure stat checkers
idk about yi yeah he’s master q but in a team fight if he’s not fed has to turn on his brian for a second to actually dodge cc with q and such. still gross regardless
@@JKMT build galeforce and dodge it dummy
Marksmen have been insanely overtuned for past 2 seasons.
It's truly sad when Riot make Immortal Cringebow for ADCs but ended up being abused by 200 years melee ADC champions
They should really make a thing like what titanic bork has but reverse so that melee champs get half the shield
That would murder these champs
@@ziglaus disagree they worked before shieldbow was a thing
@@ziglaus no. that would make them fair
Idk why Riot doesn't just make ADC items less effective for melee champs like how fleet footwork gives less healing to ranged champs
Also, fun fact, only master yi(and I guess Gangplank) need mana out of these "melee adc's", so there's no saving grace of them losing their pressure through loss of resource. They don't get weaker or less threatening, so there are basically no down-time to exploit. Yes, I know Yasuo and Yone need three stacks on Q to make their big wind-move, but do they really need it? and tryndamere uses his rage to get stronger, but late-game, he'll get on you and kill you before he gets full rage. Stat checker through and through, as his rage only helps him win harder.
Yasou's windwall also has a huge cooldown, and he can't dash around like crazy if you are fighting without minions. Tryndamere has what, a 12 second cooldown on his Q, a 14 second cooldown on his W and a 12 second cooldown on his E. He is also super unreliable if he has no fury, which is exactly why you push him out and poke him/do small trades versus him.
The problem is not their abilities not having mana, because they do all their damage with their auto attacks anyway. The problem is the items being super overpowered on especially them.
You will survive a Tryndamere or Yasou or a Yone if you actually play around your team. Saying that they oneshot adc's is not an excuse. A full tank Malphite also one-shots adc's, that's because adc's are shit atm, and have been for ages.
yasuo walks at an ashe , ashe walks backwards kitting him staying out of his e range yasuo ww ashe waits out the windwall and then continue kiting him if he still come toward her or run him down if he is running away he has 0 armour from item unless he gets to his 3rd item so she will deal dmg no matter what
there that's the importance of range and how u can use it, ofc less 10% of the league community can space abilities well and kite effectively
but if riot gave in and made adcs not one shottable (aka: giving them more base resistances as bruisers) everyone will play adcs in every role what the point of playing yasuo if i can just stand face tank the yasuo and win in melee range there will literally no pint in playing melees
@@MohamedHossam-mn5cg bro chill out let them live in their fantasy. Bronzies adc shitters will always find a reason to complain about how their class is bad etc even when they’re handed wins on a silver platter. Ezreal and Kaisa already face tank most bruisers with crown? What’s the point lol
@@memoria8732 I'm actually a support-main, so I don't even get dmg to contend with them
@@Teraclon bec ur role job is not to do dmg ur job is peel out the adc/dmg dealer make their job easier at dealing dmg if u r playing naut or leo by locking down divers and assassins If u r playing lulu/sona by buffing them poly/sona autos passive/soraka silence on divers/assassins
If u r playing a catcher ur job is to make picks as well by utilizing vision from support item every class has a role and an objective they want to achieve and an environment they shine
skrimshers shine in 1v1s
bruisers/divers/catcher support shine in 2v2s/making picks
adcs/mages/tanks shine in 5v5s etc
there is even more that depending on where the fight take place jg/river/lane etc...
Idk it feels more like Riot bias/neglect with this issue. I feel like they could easily do what most bruiser items already do and just make these items not as strong on melee characters as they are on ranged ones.
Completely agree it’s such a easy solution that would only benefit adc’s and nerf yas, yone, and trynd who are clearly riots favorites (mainly yas and yone)
@@SolidRazo it’s more so that yone and yasuo have one of the largest fanbases ever
Same, I’ve been saying this since last season. Especially for the mythic items that are designed for ADCs to be safer like Shield-bow… but then Yone takes this defensive item and uses it to become unkillable with a huge shield and life steal. Insane.
It’s just fundamentally a misuse of that item specifically and it would take minimal effort to have it be XX% less effective on Melee champions.
Or just make separate melee and ranged items altogether.
The current item system is sort of ridiculous when you think about it. How is a sword helping Jhin do more damage with his bullets? HOW?!
@@MaverickMyth If we want to talk about this shit I want to mention that jhin somehow gets more damage from purchasing a bow combined with shield.
Hot take: What if items like Immortal Shieldbow got a melee nerf so it only impacts melee ADCs and not marksmen? I mean, we have nerfs on Hullbreaker and Divine Sunderer, etc. for ranged champions. IS got nerfed because of Yone, Irelia, and Yasuo but they got a buff right after leaving ADCs with a weaker mythic.
Did you even watch the video?
@@ohlookitisacat7404 This video literally was just bad. Like no offense to Vars, but it's just a bad take.
@@huzayfasabri9691 and what made it bad?
@@ioiioooio193 The whole "Marksmen must be weak or Melee ADCs must be overpowered." take. It's utter fucking nonsense. Tryndamere was dogshit in Season 2, where ADCs fired nuclear warheads and carried teamfights literally by themselves. Riot FUCKED UP MONUMENTALLY giving Yasuo and Yone double crit for LITERALLY NO REASON, and marksmen were nerfed into the fucking ground, ever since. Just force them to build more crit items. Boom. Fixed. Now if they're weak, you can buff them without destroying the game again.
@@CaptainDCap season 2 and season 11 are 2 worlds away, literally different games how are you even comparing these two
The thing people love with melee adc is they're less reliant on their support, less punishable for a mistakes and having more outplay potential.
With traditional ad you need a buttload of gold to reach powerspike, you're more reliant on your teammates and support to not fk up the your lane or their lane until then. Then one positioning mistake in teamfight can result in instant grey screen and your 10 minutes of farming can go down into the drain.
This is why riot should stop nerfing ranged interactions with items. Let adcs built items without CRIT chance or attack spped if they want. They should allow versatility when they allow shit like melee adcs go unnerfed.
It's almost like this is a 5v5 game
@@gkarak1996 My humble opinion, please don't kidnap my brother just because i say it, is that adcs should be allowed to be versatile, but still on a crit build, because is the only way they can have most of geir power in auto attacks. That's the way they were designed to be. The mythic items did this by giving option to be a mobile champion and giving a dash, a tank melter, or to survive a nocturne ult. You're right that they should have more options, but let them in the crit category. Only the on hit adcs should go for other stuff that's still made for adcs. Here are some item concepts that might do this: An anti armor item, since everyone can by Armor boots and take no damage from them would be an item that makes 75% of your crit damage to ignore armor. Then an item with a spell shield like the ones for assasins and mages to avoid losing to mages that miss all their skill shots in a fight just to press their win fight button on you. Then a reversed litch bain (did i write it right?) would be one that makes the next damaging ability after a basic attack to deal bonus AD damage.
@@gkarak1996 then what will be the point of even playing melees imagine if cait/xayah/vayne has the durability of jax/rene/camile then what is even the point of melees everyone one will play adcs in every role bec of range adv.
@@MohamedHossam-mn5cg you know about which interactions I speak about. For example why on hit effects on an item are lower value on ranged champions like frost gauntlet. It is not about durability .
I remember a time when marksmen started using death’s dance to reduce damage taken (like burst). Riot then adjusted the passive so that ranged champions get less damage reduction from the item than melee champions. I think if we want to balance marksmen with melee ADCs (without inflating or deflating one or the other), we should do something similar to that with crit items.
I wanna see the crit mythics or maybe IE have a seperate scaling for ranged vs melee like bork, tsunderer, hullbreaker, etc. Make them able to spike midgame still but give them less damage.
I think making that big of a change in the game is overdoing it when you can simply tone down or mini-rework those who are responsible. Also you would be killing all the meme builds of crit based builds on champ that do not use it.
Imagine if there was a ranged only item that gave us double crit. Give it low AD, but Double crit. So building it 2nd or 3rd gives you a huge boost to crit chance. It would be an alternative to IE.
I agree, ADCs are not overpowered enough, lets make their overtuned items ranged exclusive too!
@@xomaldjanashia-gr4ti skill issue
I commented this a while ago when you brought this subject up the first time but I feel it bears repeating:
We already have a fully functional, crit-friendly melee ADC in the game. His name is Xin Zhao, and if he goes full crit, he does damage out the wazoo but - understandably - suffers in terms of durability if he goes down that route. The real problem with melee ADC's is that they get free crit, which in and of itself isn't a bad thing, but since they share items with ranged ADC's it means you can never change the latter without monstrously overpowering the former. Crit amp needs to go; going for crit on a melee champ should be a tradeoff, not a free powerspike.
"Oh but they do less crit damage" - if this is your counterargument, kindly remain silent. Their increased crit chance is worth way more than the loss in crit modifier.
They also hit harder anyhow and their spells actually do something. Both windshitters have hard cc and assassin level burst while also having as much raw dps as any marksman.
and with all the AD the get from items, they end up hitting as hard if not harder than an marksman
@@ignacioperez5479 Also they have means to outplay them, good luck as caitlin vs yasuo
@@DefinitelyNotReal627 This is also true. Very few marksmen have versatile kits, and even those who do can't compare to Wind Wall, Zed Ult (except it's your E...) and immortality.
@Gniewomir Kosiacki they don't need to outplay they just dash to you cc you and negate all your damage
My question is what's stoping Riot from making ADC items change depending if you are melee or range(like passive dmg from BOTRK)
Like there is many items that have this kind of thing, it would allow them to balance both melee and range separately. If one item is problem on Windshiters but is fine on normal ADC then just nerf it only on melee champs with this mechanic. It exist in the game so why dont they use it?
I was thinking the exact same. This seems like a change, that would a lot easier to implement compared to full scale reworks.
Because they don't give a fuck. It's very easy to give different stats depending on if you're ranged or melee. They just don't give a fuck.
@@martinator_videns ye and just generaly fixed many Issues with balance.
Lets take current livesteal/vamp nerf on marksmen items, as we all can deduce it propably to nerf irelia and other champs that abuse it but this change also nerfs a lot of other champs Kalista.
With dividing stats betwen melee and range they could savetly nerf those items for Irelia and others without nerfing our sad kalista.
(Discusion whether these changes actually are actually for Irelia and not also for range champs or if those changes will even affect her is for a difrent time)
@@lorymiharu yea its sadly reocuring thing with Riot. Most of A time they just dont care for smaller problems or big problems regarding unpopular champs/things.
it may be that riot doesnt care enough to balance the champions, but i bet because of a CertaiN region containing their highest player count that goes absolutely apeshit for anything windshitter related, riot is literally monetarily INCENTIVIZED to not balance the champions. riot is prioritizing making a bag over balance, which is kinda par for the course really.
Some context for that Barrel clip:
Solarbacca had 20% Crit Chance, and 324 AD from 3 complete items (Essence, Prowlers, Muramana).
4 times out of 5 the barrel would've done ~800 dmg, then Tyler could've flashed away and lived (maybe).
The RNG gods were kind to give us this legendary moment
I want Riot to add a new class called "Swordsmen" and comprise it of melee crit'ers if you get me. Yasuo tryndamere yone yi etc etc
And what? Lock them away from items? Just putting a new class in does nothing
with that logic, garen is a swordsmen, going galeforce mortal reminder, i like it.
aren't they already called skirmishers?
Garen is a swordsmen
@@zackblast2656 don't forget the occasional Galeforce Collector Darius. He also can be found with his "Swordsmen," peers despite not using one.
Just for clarification Vars, if these melee ADC champs were to be completely moved away from crit to become light fighters like Fiora, Riven, Jax, would you say that ADC's could then be buffed? I feel like marksmen are weak, but more because the environment of 5v5 solo/duo queue hurts them, ex. support miscommunicates, ally team drafts only 1 peel, both teams locking in 2+ slayers; all of that warrants a system change in my eyes, not ADC crit stat buffs
you clearly dont understand the triangle of balance then, you cannot buff adc while cringebow is in the game, cause riot though its a good idea countering an entire class designed to beat adc with an item. as long thats in the game they cannot buff adc or you will witness adc meta and that is not only boring, but its a meta were slayers and assins cant do there job anymore and the gane is just a 3 peel 2 adc or 3 peel and adc + mage. diversity is gone.
also if you move winshitters away from crit they need a complet balance overhall, just remember rework akali and think if you want that to the game.
@@nsreturn1365 but assassins have way more options in completely negating their counters, QSS on melee, edge of night and death's dance are completely anti-game items that are essentially shieldbow to melee carries
@@nsreturn1365 i think comps would prob still be 2 slayers an assassin and a mage support because buffing adcs wont fix the core issue of everyone trying to solo-carry including their support
Fiora and jax are technically melee adc but yeah and riven maybe also be part of this category even if she's strange
@@baptistecochennec5956 Jax maybe, but Fiora and Riven's damage isn't from their auto attacks, it's from their abilities, the equivalent more like an artillery mage than ADC
I just liked seeing gangplank going through the wall at 7:07
“If you do this, Yasuo will be completely useless”
Me: GOOD
Imagine still getting assmad about yas in 2022
@@phoenixfire9176 Yeah the only real problem with Yasuo anymore is that he can drop windwall directly on himself with a very generous window to act, as much as I hate Samira's windwall I will admit it takes more skill and should be how Yasuo's windwall acts as well, other than that he's a fairly tame champ compared to Yone who can miss all his abilities mid game and still manage to get a kill on squishy champs and then go right back to his real body safe and sound, because that invalidates the whole weakness of rush down champs, having to think ahead to how you're gonna get out of danger after rushing your target down.
@@snowpegasi nice argumentations, however imo, samira’s W (I think it’s W) takes less skill than the windwall, since there is a big difference between a good ww and a mediocre one: to play ww at its maximum potential you have to Constantly dance around it while attacking and maintain melee distance, and a a yasuo main, it is maybe the hardest thing to properly do with a yet mechanical champ like he is. Instead with samira you just need timing, which is required also with wind wall.
@@snowpegasi ????????????????????????????????????????? NO SHOT you just said samiras WW takes more skill ITS AOE!!! WHAT LOL she doesnt have to do anything other than press W yasuo at least has to aim W in the right direction.
@@ryry8533 Sorry I meant timing wise, not coverage wise, my bad, the 360 wind wall is still cancer, I just have a problem with how long Yasuo's wind wall stays down, it kinda negates burst mages, which wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for the fact Yasuo has so many other things going for him into those matchups on top of that.
As someone for whom Yasuo is the 2nd or 3rd most played champ, i wholeheartedly agree the crit passive is dumb, I'd rather have a more fun mechanic, maybe an empowered ability passive? .... Also if they remove the wind wall and give me something more fun and interactive, I'm down for it
Pfff cry kid. Your a yasuo hater. He is fine the way he is.
Whatever helps u sleep at night sunshine
Idk what those last 2 comments were...........Anyway, if you are serious I appreciate your honesty with your favorite characters. It's been very difficult for players to admit when their character is so problematic.
@@irelia8939 u are the one crying in almost every comment possible XD
@@irelia8939 can’t even use correct grammar ;/
I think the problem is that Yone and Yasuo are strong early and late which a lot of the time just feels incredibly unfair to play against, especially if you play a mid/late game champion yourself. If you take for example a mage, can't usually oneshot pre 6, Yone/Yasuo win early because they can skirmish better and they win mid and late because they build crit. Even if the mage player plays smart and holds his CC Yone can just jump through as his abilities can't get stopped midway. Of course I am not denying that range isn't a factor, a lot of mages can poke the ever living f out of Yone and Yasuo but they usually just heal it all back up with lifesteal. Building anti-heal or anti-shield also is not working as you have less damage with these items and won't be able to win the skirmish because a lack of damage. The only champions that actually feel somewhat able to deal with yone or yasuo are other melee marksman or an assassin that can oneshot them early on.
I would say these are the main reasons these 2 are annoying to play against, or at least why I find them annoying.
There's no point where Yasuo and Yone are objectively weak or easy to punish. They start strong, and keep getting exponentially stronger. That is, I think, the fundamental problem with them, and why there's memes about "0/12 yasuo powerspike". You don't HAVE to play the wind brothers perfectly to be incredibly difficult to deal with, but you DO have to play your mage champion perfectly to not int.
You have options with battle mages and zone-control burst mages (Anivia, Annie, Vex, to some extent Lux and Xerath from my own champ pool), but those champions do not scale in the same way and HAVE to build 'counter items' like Zhonyas and Morello, when the Wind brothers don't HAVE to build magic resist to still be able to rush us down but still have the option to do so to become more difficult to handle.
@@lh8263 Yeah you still need almost a full team with like 85% of all champions to deal with them and itemizing doesn't really do anything as buying anti-heal or anti-shield is way less damage and makes you weaker than the 2 even if you have the same amount of items. Not saying that there are no ways of winning against them but more often than not you need some specific anti-carry to deal with them (from my personal experience I would recommend cho gath for this, you win early trades with e alone and later you just eat them).
The problem is that most champions just can't win against those 2 as they scale harder and get powerspikes earlier which is just incredibly frustrating.
Worst thing i've seen so far was a gp with 4 items and a yone with 2 items hitting everything on each other and yone winning.
@@Tall-Hobbit I'm actually quite comfortable against Yasuo by now. He's the less annoying one. While I would prefer to play Lissandra or Annie or Malzahar against him, I can still win with my main Lux.
Yone I can stomp with Vex and Annie, and it's a coin toss with Lux but I haven't practiced the others as much into him.
One of the few upsides of the wind brothers is that their overloaded kits and easy of use means players end up with inflated elo. You've got people with macro and decision making that is way below their rank, so you CAN outplay them most of the time. It's just whether the outplay is enough to overcome all their stupid free stats.
Here’s a drinking game.
Take a shot every time he mentions yone being a 200 years designed champion
I am down for that, tho I need to call the hospital pre hand.
Thats called suicide
He fell for the "ADC WEAK" meme and is basically farming likes with this video.
I'll be honest I would be fine with these champs if they didn't get amplified crit where they get to build less crit like for example all yas and yone need is one crit item then IE and also more fury trynn has more crit he does
I think trynd needs a rework and the two other champs are broken wind shtters
If they didn't have the crit amp, do you think they'd still be playable?
@@GattlingCombo they absolutely would be playable without a crit amp. They would just be more punishable for taking traditionally bad fights. Its just my 2 cents but I actually think they just need more ways to be played around than to be truly gutted, and I don't think removing the crit amp counts as gutting them
Same, i actually play yasuo a lot, i wouldn't mind if they change his crit passive and even remove the wind wall.. I like his dashes and his Q into ultimate plays and whatnot, in fact the moment i picked him i thought the wind wall was a cheesy ability
@@GSDGamingx no kid crit is needed for them. You are just there haters
They tried to copy the "Carry" category in DotA
in that game, both melee and range can be carry to some extends.
however, they did not think through that the main stats in DotA and LoL are not the same.
We have items that can only be bought by Melee champs. Why not just make specific items for ranged champs and only they can buy them? That would prevent melees from abusing these items, it's the same thing that happened with melee only items.
It's something that I always think and don't understand why Riot wouldn't do it.
?, The only item that i know that has a range/melee restriction is ruinanns hurricane which can only be bought by ranged champs
Riot when an Assassin has a 1500 health shield and heals all his health: I sleep
Riot when Ezreal builds Divine Sunderer: Real shit?
There is Runaan's Hurricane but it's only used on a few adc's and id useless on the rest so I agree.
@@doctor99267 and rapid fire canon
I was really happy you mentioned GP at 2:18
Y'know how all of the "desinged for melee" items have a reduced efectiveness for ranged champs while not specifically restricting them from buying any of said items (the 30%melee/16%ranged kinda splitted effectiveness) i really think adc items should have the same effect but inversed, the nerfed version of shieldbow should only be nerfed for melee users, galeforce's dash should be shorter for melee, and kraken's atk speed scaling should also be lowered just for melee.
6:36 vars: *explaining how game design works*
gankplank: yeah bruuh we flyin
i think it all comes down to the main problem of league in the first place: the requirement to ruin someone's fun to win
take CC for example: it is singlehandedly the most powerful tool in league because it stops the champions from doing anything
melee adcs, because they are short ranged, need some sort of nullification of weaknesses to be viable, and more often than not, it is done in an unfun and uninteractive way
examples include master yi Q, tryndamere R, yasuo windwall, yone E AND R, viego passive and possession, even gp Q has to be ranged
because they want these characters to build full damage, they end up just removing design barriers by adding toxic abilities into their kit
and inherently, the problem with marksmen is that they are too honorable, too noble, and, dare i say it, too outdated
most, if not all, of their toxic abilities (like CC or explosive damage) come in the form of skillshots or delayed damage
take varus R and his blight stacks (1.5 second delay before the big damage), jhin and his fourth shot, ezreal and his Q,
as for an example that goes against this rule, Ashe R is one of the most toxic abilities a normal adc has because it can serve as a semi-instant stun and can also be used at long range for a 10 year long stun
(i say normal because samira also has W but everyone knows that shit is toxic and had to be gutted)
tl;dr champions are becoming more oppressive in nature, removing the opponent's ability to play in order to stay relevant
marksman unfortunately do not have this luxury to be oppressive due to power budget being mostly in their range
I remember when some items were gated based on range. If riot decides to gate adc mythics to ranged champs and make another set of mythics for melee's, we could circumvent the catch 22 almost entirely.
The adc mythics could get buffed to make adcs less embarrassing and have the melee's commit somewhat fewer war crimes after min 5
Riot when an Assassin has a 1500 health shield and heals all his health: I sleep
Riot when Ezreal builds Divine Sunderer: Real shit?
dota 2 has a wide variety of melee and range ADCs. you might wanna check out how they balance it
Locking shieldbow to ranged champs would be a good first step. Overall, marksman need a massive class overhaul to buff their survivability. In return, they can have less scaling.
But then they would be useless. At no point would they be able to kill a bruiser if you reduce their scaling. I'm no adc main, by I fell that for how much they can do late game, the price they pay seems fair.
@@mokitboy5283 when was the last time you saw late game ? And usually, even at late game, I'd rather face a jinx than a yone as the former can be oneshot by an assassin.
@@tecshield690 im gold, so i get to see late game more often than others. And i do agree, but i think yone is on a different tier than the other ones, he just doenst make sense. late game i rather face a trynda, yasuo than full buid vayne/jinx
Points to you my man, whenever talking about crit you really need to think about the 3 champs in your thumbnail first. I also appreciate that you value range as a powerful stat, something that you really only notice as you go higher up the ladder. Good job on the video, keep up the good work!
I think crit system can be balanced so that items have different effects for ranged/melee users like S10 deaths dance. Out of the roster you've listed, the only champions that feel terrible to play against are Tryndamere, Yi and Viego, not because of their damage, but because of how easily they have access to "invuln" phases.
"to distinguish between ranged auto attackers and the ability to carry" absolute banger line chief
"on tryndamere it only helps his E get a LITTLE faster"
last whisper tryndamere: is that a challenge?
6:10 that's exactly why imo the cosmic+force of nature changes made other classes able to keep up so much more easily since they can invest in that as counterplay stats that genuinely improve a champions gameplay, maybe I'm just bias cuz I play singed and anivia haha
Weird thought, make ranged only items for marksmen so that these champions can't use them. An inverted steracks gage or hydra.
Something like Runaan's Hurricane, which can only be purchased by ranged champions?
Only that hydra can be bought my ranges champions.
The maind reason riot is trying to reduce the amount of these items is because of shapeshifters like Gnar and Jayce who might potentially build them at some point, but woulod not be able to use them when changing form.
Those are Lazy and lame way to balance the game.
Your voice is so relaxing, im gonna listen to it while im meditating LOL
Imagine going against a Yasou adc and a Pantheon support because I went against them once and they really ruin the game for me. My support once said we're ahead since he is 0-4 but went from there to 16-7 really quick. Once they reach 6, they started snowballing and it's not fun at all.
One thing that really pick my attention is how the 3 last release champs have a form of hard counter build in their kit
Personally, I think all of this comes from the constraint that "ranged ADCs" HAVE TO be created in a VERY particular way and ALL have the exact same weaknesses and strengths. ALL building the EXACT same items. ADCs strengths and weaknesses are relative to each other. Saying Vayne is "weak" early game JUST because people like Caitlyn can bully her is incorrect because both of them are shitty early game relative to other characters. ADCs are like in a bubble where you have to pick between Ken vs Ryu.ADCs have the most stale design and honestly require a massive rework if you want to fix the ADC problem.
Look at other MOBAs like dota, where you can have ranged carries be wildly different design/abilities with all different niches from early/mid/late game. With a large multitude of options depending on the game.
Ashe counterpart in dota "drow ranger" specializes in attacking from max range, perma slowing, and then pushing back/silencing. Clearly her role is to kite and has strong matchup against squishy mages but get's dunked on by teleporters/people trying to bum rush her.
Then you have huskar which is an ULTRA TANKY, super regen diving into enemy team ADC. Which has entirely different set of strengths and weaknesses compared to drow ranger.
Been almost 5 years sicne I last played Dota but can you remind how Dota's ranged carries are vastly different from each other?
@@DzinkyDzink I'm not going to go into detail since I gave two examples and you can look up the character list yourself. But a few examples would be:
Morphling, Arc Warden, Weaver, Templar Assassin, Medusa, Shadowfiend, Gyrocopter, Drow Ranger, Huskars.
Even though all of them are ranged carries, they all have different playstyles and massively different matchups and weaknesses vs the other cast.
and btw if you are talking about crit master yi you mean kraken guinso and then tank yes?
because literaly no one is building infinity
you are going lathality early master or rarely dusk blade>colector>essence>infinity>ldr something like that but i think that counts more as lethality
and there is second twice more powerfull build but you need to scale
and you just go kraken>guinso>sterack>titanic>wits end>panthom or BT or maybe blackcleaver, maw
You're right about melee carries screwing with item balance. A few patches ago, they decided that Yasuo and Yone q needed a buff to ad scaling because shieldbow got nerves. Which basically meant that they were unaffected by a nerf to an item that was intentionally done to nerf the users of said item. Like yasuo and yone.
But I thought the nerfs to shieldbow for that patch were in the shield and not in the ad? A direct counter nerf In that case would have been to give the wind bros a buff to some form of their defensive stats?
@@belphegren2062 If you give more damage than before then you have way more damage to simply pop off someone in an instant. They are slightly weaker to assassins, but they get burstier against every1 else, bruh
The funny part about them is that 4 of them are manaless champions
Once again, I feel like Dota would have been a better compairson than Smash on the topic of balancing melee and ranged dps characters for a Moba
But hey, write what you know I guess
So, my friends and I have been talking about this issue for a while. we think that riot should do something akin to Smite. That being, that Riot should focus primarily on splitting the items evenly for each class, Reclassify the champions if they have to, but simply give each class some defensive options and some offensive options and let them pick and choose from that pool rather than allowing them to build anything they want. That way, if they balance one class, it doesn't hurt the others. Smite honestly has the best solution for preventing item abuse imo. It's like, they nerfed Turbo Chemtank cause assassins were building it... if they don't want assassins to build it, then why even let them in the first place? All it did was hurt tanks who built it like Singed. Stuff like that is why i think they should shift it more towards Smite's system.
As someone who plays both, I honestly love smites items so much more in general lol
So look into my eyes and tell me, why to i have to read my oponnent's skillshots to not get murdered in lane whilst yasuo just needs to walk and not think about his enemy in lane? why does he get so much for free? A character, for example, jax doesn't have better range than him, has to fight ranged characters a lot also, doesnt get free mobility, has mana costs, and does not get a shield just by walking and a long range attack like the hurricane, no free crit also
its kind of funny I was thinking about this earlier today and you happened to release this video today.
These "Premieres in" notifications are really annoying. I don't want to see a video thumbnail in my feed if it's not out yet.
I think what I think would solve the ADCs problem the most would be to make crit items have better values when used on marksmen, like fighter items that have a nerfed version for ranged champions.
An idea that I found interesting, would be some passive on the item that works according to the champion's range, like the less range, less damage and more attack speed or the more range, more damage and less attack speed.
Another idea would be for mythical crit items to have some passive that works from the amount of crit chance coming from the items and not from passives that increase it (like yasuo, yone, trynda and senna), in addition to preventing champions like irelia, between others use the shieldbow, since she doesn't buy critical items anymore, so only buying one, so it would benefit her to buy more than one and nerf whoever has less items.
I don't think that will stop Yone or Yasuo. Intent (their passive) goes beyond crit. Every instance they build beyond 100% crit they get additional AD instead. If they want, they can just keep building crit since going beyond 100% is just as viable as staying at 100%.
I feel like Riot has kind of dug themselves into a hole with Melee ADCs. Especially with the wind brothers and the fact that crit is on theme for them. I do think melee adc's should exist, I really don't like how stale league's lane setup and roles are, but I also think the problem adcs can't exist the way they are now. Trynd needs a rework, wind brothers can't have double crit (especially for so cheap). Not sure about yi and GP though, yi is heavily a stat checker, and GP does have skill expression with barrel knowledge.
The issue with removing double crit from yasuo and yone though is that crit is a part of their champion identity at this point. Removing crit from them would be like removing lifesteal/being a vampire from vlad. You just can't do it. And you can't remove their double crit scaling either, because then they become completely and utterly useless. Expecting meelee champs to build 5 crit items to be useful is simply impossible, as they would be completely unplayable and get destroyed by every single marksman/mage in existence with no counterplay.
@@billyjones2206 Definitely, I could have been more explicit, but that's what I was trying to get at with "Riot has kind of dug themselves into a hole with Melee ADCs. Especially with the wind brothers and the fact that crit is on theme for them." The effect is absolutely broken and likely wasn't necessary, but they're stuck now because it's part of the character identity.
Riot *could* give more downside to double crit, or they could change how crit benefits the brothers, but I'm not sure what that would look like off the top of my head.
@@billyjones2206 But I will say I highly doubt that removing double crit would make them useless.The brothers already have so much value from the rest of their kit, especially including lack of resource.
ah yes Kraken slayer makes you two shot. with it's three hit passive
Yone is my main for the mid lane tbh and honestly I would love to see him and Yasuo reworked a bit to instead of getting inhanced crit maybe they scale off of hp? Like its very minor scaling but their passive gives bonus hp for the attack damage they build like 1% hp off every 50 atk dmg? Snd their passive says they no longer can gain crit, then make their Q's Cooldown either just go down with leveling it up now or make it scale with somethign else that skirmishers build, either hp in some minor fashion or atk dmg or even maybe armor snd magic resist? Idk I would love to see it tho cuz yone especially has a good amount of cc so i would love to see him more built like Riven or Jax or even more Juggernaut like Sett
The unfortunate truth is that Riot wants to make League of Legends games faster. In order to truly excel and carry in games, especially in Masters+ is that you MUST win lane. If you go even then the game feels horrible for ADCs. Most games are generally over by 25 minutes and by the time that happens, there is a chance that the opposing team or your team is already fed. That's why the Korean servers are notoriously known for short games.
Mhh, as a yone/yasuo main this video i’ll enjoy my favourite lol UA-camr shitting on my favourite champions as they deserve
Backloaded crit items such as PD are an answer. They probably wont solve everything, but they might go a long way to fixing the problem as ranged adcs get way more autos in per fight. Instead of making every class a swiss army knife, it would be better to focus on their strengths and making that shine. In this case, play into ranged adcs' relative strength in consistent damage in team fights instead of making it so they are better at dueling which they shouldn't really be particularly good at, otherwise why would you ever pick any class. Some ideas for this might be to make kraken have lower base damage, but make the true damage increase every time you proc it until you leave combat, or make galeforces damage work similar to kalista's e, where the damage increases based on the number of autos you land in combat.
Another option is active preemptive defense items such as zhonyas or stoneplate (imagine an adc version of it). Because they are further away, they have more time to react and potentially denying lethal burst damage/ buying time for peel. Imagine you catch them with a stun after you both finished mythics, you cant just nuke them because they survive with shieldbow, heal off minions and then beat ur ass because you already blew your cooldowns including ur ult. Now imagine if shieldbow's shield was an active, they either react in time to use it just before they get stunned, but then you just hold ur ult, back off and if you stun them again, you can punish hard. This still retains their survivability (mostly) for teamfights, where they actually need the added survivability.
To simply write off crit items as a catch 22 is a bit lazy and unimaginative, because, as mentioned in this video, ranged adcs do have a significant advantage, and to allow them to flourish without breaking melee adc's is to play into them.
The problem with reactive defensives for ADCs is two-fold: It heightens the skill floor for an already difficult class, and it also doesn't consistently help against the classesthey need that defense against - slayers and burst mages. A reactive defense against Slayers is often equal to no defense, because they can kill you faster than many players can react, and it is only helpful against very select burst mages. It would HAVE to be activable during cc but tbh I think an automatic defense makes more sense for 99% of players.
@@lh8263 If you're positioning in a way where you can't press 1 button before you get bursted (i.e. facechecking bushes), you kinda do deserved to die. The claim that you can't react is demonstrably false because of the existence of zhonyas, a reactive defensive item for mages (often similarly as squishy if not more so), that is arguably the best item in the game. Slayers and burst mages usually need anywhere from 2-5 seconds to close the gap and unload their combo to kill you. When Vars says that they can kill you before you can react, it is technically true in the sense that if you dont have flash, you cannot escape them, but it is very misleading. Take blitz hook for example (technically not a slayer or burst mage, but if you get hooked you get one shot so, close enough) it may be hard to react in time to side step it, but it is very easy to flash on reaction to dodge it. Active defensive items work in a similar way.
On the note of being able to use them during cc, that negates the point of them being preemptive to getting combo'ed to death.
Let’s make shieldbow into two different items instead, one for life steal and the other for the shield. Burst is the current issue right now and not poke, so having a mythic with just the shield and the AD passive would be really beneficial for ADC’s I imagine. Where as for the melee crit skirmishers like Viego and the wind shitters, life steal would give them that sustain they need to succeed later on without the giant fucking shield. Having both in one item in my opinion kills the itemization with these champs.
As someone whos top 2 games in terms of hours are league and smash, I think this'll make me sub.
“Then they’d fucking suck” honestly, I genuinely would not mind these melee adcs being nerfed to the ground for just a tiny bit of relevance being given back to adcs. I think I speak for at least 80% of the player base when I say it sucks having these champs in your games. Either you win bc they reached 3 items first, or you lose because the player went 0/10. Or you win bc the enemy melee adc went 0/10 or you lose bc they just steamrolled your team. I can probably count on one hand the number of times a game with Yasuo or Yone in it wasn’t won or lost 90% as a consequence of their sheer existence. And I don’t think any champion or class of champions should be given that sort of sway in a game.
As an adc this video hits different, another champ I kind of wished to see in this video was graves (I know he isn’t “melee” but it’s hard to count him as an adc either) but this stemmed the thought of 2 other adc topic ideas that being about how and what riot has to do to make a marksman not botlane (graves, Quinn, Akshan, and Kindred) or how marksman have recently started going lethality because crit items take too long to be useful. Anyways always a good day when I see a new vid for you mr. Streamer and I hope y’all have a good day
Do you think crit items should 25 percent crit cuz back in season 10 you would have room for a defensive or could go 75 percent crit and have 2 defensives and still have damage,season 11 and 12 feels like stuck in the same build path of five crit items just to have damage or to then building lethality to get those spikes of damage earlier,to which i feel i had more variety in season 10 before mythics were a thing
@@hcorvnov6732 to be honest I don’t know how to fix adc without a major overhaul. One idea I’ve always thought about was increasing just the raw power of items to force the non-adcs like these melee crit builders to either opt into straight damage or defense while overall improving adcs. But this is terrifying because I feel like they have tried this and has failed miserably and everyone just buyed a couple of adc items then bought their own situational items for their champs (2 examples were the gale force-collector and the immortal-essence meta), which sadly I think the idea of increasing crit chance would fall into this trap.
I was playing Samira with a Swain support. We were both fed plus the jungler, Xin zhao. The only fed person on the enemy team was irelia. She won the game even though we tried to catch her 1v3, 1v2. I lost my mind and uninstalled the game. They are the reason adc get nerfed in 10.26.
Same exact scenario recently, everyone on our team looking 3/1 or better and the only person losing is top with 1/6, we caught out the 6/3 Irelia like 3-4 times as 3-4 people and lost every fight, two of us had grievous, one person had anathema's chains on her, she would only stun one of us on average and we still lost every fight. Im still salty to this day.
@@ryunoishi6514 its not about cutting the heal, its about having the dmg to kill her...
Yep this sums it up. Ever since melees and Mages started randomly going bot lane I haven’t had much fun and pretty much entirely switched to ARAM. It’s just like how much more can you do to end the fun of the only role I like riot?
Honestly, I've given it thought before and I feel that Crit mythics should be what gives the following items crit as their mythic passive. And lethality the same. That way AD champs have more item freedom like mages do. 2nd item GA because the whole enemy team is AD assassins? Sure, and you still don't slow your damage by 70%, just 40%ish the way Zhonyas does (don't come at me for my math, I'm not gonna try to run numbers, just the idea of it) Why should I be punished cause I'm the only champ that can't get a stopwatch item till last? For gimmick items like collector, they could still have their passive be something like the item gives lethality with the crit mythic and vise versa. This may require a rework to lethality, but it seems healthier than limiting every lethality build to the same 3 items into either crit or manamune.
Nilah: ... I think i'm ok. (Yes i know she was released after this video)
As a Yone main, the main reason why Melee ADCs seem to be polarizing is due to the fact that they are, well, melee. Their mobility is excellent, yes, and it may seem like they can dash across the map with ease, but at the end of the day, they still have to be in your face to do damage. And being in your face with crit items is... how you say... not a smart idea. The whole idea of crit items is that they are pure damage, with little to no defenses to speak of. That, combined with a class who cannot even afford to attack from a safe distance thanks to their melee attack range, makes for a balance disaster
The only reason Yone and Yas are even remotely viable is because of Shieldbow; same with Phantom Dancer in earlier seasons. If you are Challenger Faker 1v9 smurf to pro level, then you can make Galeforce Yone work by dodging problematic skillshots every time. But at the end of the day, Yone and Yas are too squishy due to the items they are forced to build first, making their scaling and overall playstyle very strange compared to other champs. As much as people like to pretend, Yone W and Yas passive are not enough to protect them from getting bursted down by even the least burst oriented bruisers. The concept of their itemization forces them down a strange build path, where they are forced to fight in close quarters with the items least suited to do so, making them... interesting to balance, especially in regard to whatever item is able to provide suitable damage and defenses to make them at the very least able to tank a little bit of damage before biting the dust
If you want talk about Yone, but Yasuo has his windwall, the shield from his passive, a lot of dashes to get closer, AND on top of that he can use Immortal shieldbow for the life steal, the crit and the extra shield. Wich that item had to be nerfed BECAUSE of Yasuo and Yone, the gigant shield Yasuo had with Shieldbow and his passive plus the lifesteal made hin ridiculous, now ADC's with Shieldbow have to get the nerf on their survivability item because of how absurd were the shields that yasuo got
i know i must be late, but that gp at 6:35 ascended
"My name is Vars. Through the power of social media, I'm talking to all of you. All the content was uploaded, the shitstorm within reddit has began its course. My aim is to protect the NA server, where I have grinded and raged. I will crush Yone with the power of my salty video essays, until he is removed from the game due to popular demand."
"I just keep uploading until 200 years champions are destroyed"
Gwen getting a rework soon
"No, I don't want that! Yone finding way to be balanced? I want him to be my modern champion design strawman and no one else for the rest of LoL's days. Even after I quit social medias ... I want to hate him for a while. Ten years at least!!
I want him to be overloaded... I really do but... agh... yeah... shieldbow..."
i think something that is missing from this discussion is how riot gave adcs a two item spike with ie second and then nerfed crit damage scaling for adcs to lessen that spike and then when the item rework happened they moved that spike once again to 3/4 items and only ever compensated yasuo yone and trynd who can still build it at the same time they used to before the changes.
Ah yes the must fun to play against balanced champions
Yeah so fun to deal with
Fighting Fiora or Irelia is harder than a Yone or Tryndamere.. You can at least counter pick Trynd and Yone, but never Irelia and Fiora.
I see more enchanter supports winning 1v1s 1v2’s and even 1v3’s than I see ADC’a nowadays.
Funny how rito just doesn’t do the common sense thing and move them away from crit.
yone, yasuo and trynda have passive that makes them build crit, why would they move them away?
@@whats07up54 to make the 30 or so ranged champs viable?
A way to balance Yasuo and Yone would be to replace their crit scaling with something else. What if we would replace that second passive with something else to favorize a more fighter build? My ideas:
Yasuo: What if he would replace it with bonus attack speed scaling with AD, so by building a fighter build you'll have some max HP and the ad would increase both your damage and attack speed.
Yone: What if instead of his AP damage equal to 1/4 of his aa damage (half of the secong aa) to turn into magic damage based on MAX health, so both his AD and AP damage increases with this type of items.
Yasuo would have more atrack speed while Yone would deal the damage AD like a regular fighter while dealing the same amount of AP damage. So double damage... still same damage as before from crit chance.
Tell me if you wanna hear a Tryndamere rework as well :)
Would love to see that in-game :)
@@OmarHDGamer It's shame that they did Yone's abilities similar to Yasuo. It would have been better if they did him unique and give him a more demon theme. They should've made different build path to show their not the same person.
Adcs aren't even close to weak though
They are with low agency and are very easily killable. It’s too ez for assassins and divers to kill adcs even when ADCs have decent solo Q peel
@@tegansumei9772 if that wasn’t the case assassins would be a completely redundant class
@@phoenixfire9176 Are you saying assassins needing brainpower to neutralize a team's main damage would ruin the class?
As an adc i have been oneshot by things that are pretty insane
Thats right, range is the most powerful stats, melee walks in they get stunned and they die, I agree.
But whats up with them having loads of cc on their own?? whats up with the assassin having multiple dashes and bursts on top of that AOE teamfight crowed control??
Yummi dies when she gets cc, talks like other enchanters dont.
People die if they get killed.
Play rate of all non-marksmen combined: 6.6%
Jinx's play rate: 29.8%
Marksmen, weak, choose one.
?
Jinx and Caitlyn have safety
Ezreal has safety
Jhin and Aphelios have damage but that’s about it - the extent of that
-_-
@@irelia8939 what am i reading, complete cluelessness
Bruv are you really saying that 93.4 percent of the playerbase plays marksman on a given day? I'm confounded
I think "critical chance" should be replaced with a general boost to auto-attack (and specific abilities) (like guinsoo but not "on-hit") and maybe should scale up a bit like "lethality" (but with a different gradient between melee and ranged)
If Melee ADCs are those who build crit and on-hit effects, then Irelia should count as one, too. She builds BotRK and Cringebow most of the time.
Imo, they could give the windshitters a sorta Pyke and Senna thing, they can't build crit, but passively gain it per level or some other way, but passively gain it in some way, so that way they scale up along with their other melee counterparts and still keep their crit identities, and open room to balance Crit items around solely marksmen.
Maybe they could also give them a new passive, basically give them a mythic passive in their kits, when they buy items, gain crit%, and have it be enough so they'll hit healthy powerspikes equal to their other melee brethren
A lot of this comes from the fact that in League of Legends defense and mobility are supplemented with gold, but range is not. This causes ranged characters to have a very different relationship with items than defense or mobility oriented characters. A tank or diver is going to be investing gold into being able to survive or engage so that they can start using their stats and abilities on the opponents. You can make choices about whether to invest more in damage or defense based on the game state or team comps.
A ranged character basically has all of the range they will have for the entire game at level 3, with possibly a little more at level 6. This means that all of their gold is dumped into damage or support so that their abilities and autos have more impact when they land. The characters simply must scale differently because their will not be gaining more of their primary agency stat from items, but they instead be gaining lots of their primary role/effect stat. If Jinx had to purchase range or Yasuo had sufficient built in defense just from his kit, the situation would be very different.
As a marksman main, I agree that range is the only thing that works in our favor and because of that, were usually the squishy. I also agree that for skirmishers, they need something built in their kit to sustain/gap-close when in teamfights so they don't die easily.
As for crit chance items on melee champions, that should not be a thing. Because of melee characters, such as Yasuo and Yone, that only need to build 2 crit items out of 5 total items (not including boots) for them to maximize their DPS is unbalanced; where as marksman needs 4-5 crit items. Irelia and Jax might as well make the game unplayable if they had abilities that stack with crit scaling. Other melee skirmishers, like Yi and Fiora, are more acceptable to build other items and still able to carry.
The main issues are: there aren't many items that doesn't have crit chance with physical damage and/or attack speed, there are too many hurdles (characters) in the game to jump threw for marksman to be strong again. When the items rework happened, I was honestly excited to see the new items and how they function, but now it's gotten to the point where it's the same issue as before of what Riot was trying to fix, there's not much diversity. And now, some items are better with other champions than whom they're intended for.
My solutions/ideas are either: obviously make new innovated items and instead of mythic items giving stat boosts, make it so each classes have unique stat boost. Riot somewhat hit the mark when they made Shadowflame for mages that need an anti-shield item, so why can't they make more items how Runann's Hurricane is specifically for marksman or modify crit items to be like Death's Dance or BORK? Lethal Tempo might as well be an attack speed item, like Rapid Firecannon, except on steroids.
I feel like a possible fix for crit chance being so hard to balance would be change it to crit damage. I think it would work well removing some RNG from the game that can cause unfair situations. maybe need to reduce the crit damage from 175 to like 150 or something if it is too op
I wonder what lol would be like if faceless void and mortred are in league
I feel like there’s a super easy solution to the “whatever items marksmen build, melee adcs use it better”, and it’s been staring us in the face:
Just create an item with better stats/effects for ranged champs. There are 100 million items that (rightly) have a clause like (+12% melee / 6% ranged). Just create some items that have a clause the inverse of that
idea: restrictions on the effects crit items grant melee champions. e.g. make shieldbow grant a smaller shield to melees or let ie provide the extra crit damage for melees once they reach 100 crit chance instead of the usual 60
would probably help a ton but let's not forget the blatant favoritism Riot has for the windshitters, it wasn't too long ago that they gutted Shieldbow for a bit because Yone and Yasuo were too strong with it and then gave them compensation buffs in the same patch invalidating the nerf anyways while screwing over ADCs.
The IE change is a bit much, ruins the spikes of non crit amp melees like Rengar and GP.
What we need is more "Ranged Champions only" itmes, maybe with unique effects that basically only marksmen would have uses for-
Idk- maybe a "attacking at more range = a slight amount more damage" kinda stuff-
but having those items falling off towards the lategame- maybe like base physical damage + a TIIIINY amount of bonus AD on top- like additional "10 +2% bonus AD" every 100 units.
I feel the main problem is that the windshitters don't have to trade off for building crit. They spike at one item, reach very high damage potential at two and are then allowed to build defensive items that typical bruisers would build. Which then means you have a 3k hp Yasuo with DDance and Steraks doing the same damage that you'd expect out of a 1.9k hp Jinx with mobility, arguably better utilisation of lifesteal (thanks to q counting as an aa and spell) and utility thanks to his wind wall. OR a Yone with true/hybrid damage, tons of AoE CC and self-shielding. It just feels like they stacked so much into champs that ended up taking the best parts of bruisers and ADCs without the drawbacks of lower damage or squishiness. It's not like yasuo takes no skill (honestly speaking yone really doesn't take NEARLY enough effort to play effectively), but its so infuriating to see them achieve so much for so little drawback.
In my opinion their passives that give them extra crit should just scale with xp. Maybe something like at level 10 they have the full double crit chance but at level 5 it's only increasing their crit by 50%
Same thing with trynd. Have his passive give more crit as he levels but not letting it get up to 40% early game.
Just a thought
I don't know if something like this has been in the game already and got removed but my solution would be to add new boots, only purchaseable by ranged champions, which amplify your crit chance by 25% or in other words, for every 20% of crit you get through items, it will give you 25%. This would make ranged ADCs powespike even earlier and also leave options open for a defensive last item.
Wait are ADC's no longer in over 99% of games? I thought they were near mandatory for bot lane...
They aren't, people are just still keen on being masochists and picking marksmen for no reason when mages are way better.
Idk how people keep wondering how Kai'sa and Ezreal keep finding themselves in decent spots in the game, all you need is one AP scaling and you can abuse the mages' broken items
I'd start by making Yaduo and Yone use mana, reduce their ability crit chance damage like 15% and make some crit items "Ranged champions only", and make new melee crit items that help balance these champions if necessary.
Actually % armor pen is another non-linear scaling stats (and non on hit+ work for other classes)
It's reason why tank fall off in lategame, as they go only rezists+hp. Only few of them have 3rd scaling that multiplayer those 2. Ornn passive boost items by like 30%,same malphite w.
Other classes have : ap/ad + pen + haste (for tanks it mainly boost dmg/dps).
My biggest problem with melee ADCs is that they tend to deal too much damage while still being relatively safer than most ADCs.
- Tryndamere has 5 seconds of invulnerability.
- Yasuo ult allows cringebow to be even more effective.
- Yone can just screw up really hard and wiff everything, yet still end-up whacking you to death with ease.
- Yi just runs you down and his Q allows him to be really safe if they aren't a complete potato (his W also kinda helps with it).
I think they should mainly tune down the biggest issues of melee ADCs through items (like cringebow shield + healing) for melee champs (or tune them up for ranged champs).
Riven used to build crit a lot, Vi also can use crit item. If i remember correctly old fiora was good with crit too. I've seen a lot of irelia shieldbow botrk guinsoo dominik. And let's not forget about Shaco and rengar both build 2 crit item most of the time(maybe even more for rengar with the recent patch)
My view on yasuo/yone passive. It used to be +100% crit chance but since the mythics it's +150% and you also gain ad if you have more then 100% total crit chance. They sould make them not crit at this point but i think it's also a way to force them to build as least 2 crit item because if they could go any ad item in early it would require an insane amount of balance in their stats and kit
Another solution for wind brothers and potentially the others; if double crit is required to be a midlander, remover it and balance them as bot laners. They already prove it can sometimes work, so just balance them in a way to transition them there. That would then also standardized the items across the bot lane, so you could probably try picking up a new type of champ without having to learn new items or a new lane. If we call them melee adcs, then I say put them bot and balance them around the other bot laners, not the other mid laners.
as an ADC/mage player, the issue I have with yasuo & yone specifically is not their damage or resilience, but the amount of cc they can provide *while dealing that damage*. Q3 into ult locks multiple champions out of control for almost two seconds, and neither tenacity or QSS can reduce it as it's all knockups.
Even though it is quite niche, I would've enjoyed hearing about another champion that can be played with attack damage, crit chance and/or on-hit, and that champion is Shaco. Shaco's playstyle allows him to build crit when he wants to one-tap ennemy carries, and idk if you've ever had a crit shaco in your team but apart from the stupid amount of mobility melee ADC have, he could fit in this category as well (cuz idk if you ever faced one but there is nothing tanking crit shaco's dps with clone)
The smash reference made it 10x more worth the watch lol
Gangplank can only build stuff like that because for some reason, not only his gun, but also explosions caused by his gun, somehow classify as his basic attacks.