Tongues, Healing, Prophecy: For Today?
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- Опубліковано 23 лип 2024
- In this video I do theological triage on continuationism and cessationism, the question of whether miraculous spiritual gifts like speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing ceased in the past or are for the church today.
See Sam Storms' Ministry: www.samstorms.org/
See my articles on apostles and cessationism: gavinortlund.com/2010/05/23/a...
Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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00:00 - Introduction
02:15 - My Testimony on Spiritual Gifts
16:12 - Why Continuationism?
31:57 - An Example From Church History
34:58 - Doing Triage on Spiritual Gifts
42:33 - Practical Advice for Unity
51:23 - Final Appeal
Thanks for sharing your testimony. As a Pentecostal I honestly thought oh no this is going to another Baptist trying to tell me that I am in serious error so I was pleasantly surprised and could identify with your story. God bless
Glad to see you here, Erik. Your content about Gospel authorship is great.
When was the last time you saw someone coming back to life after days of being dead? How many blind have recovered their sight? How many lames have been have been healed? How many paralyzed stand up and walk back to their homes?
I mean, I understand you really, really want to believe it very badly, but the bible says those were signs given for a specific purpose in a specific time in history, to make unbelievers believe. The just will live by faith now, not by sight.
Could this be happening today? Maybe, I don't know, but be honest, you haven't seen it, ever. You can't confirm this is a thing for today.
@@JesusProtects I’ve seen a man with a completely paralyzed and atrophied leg healed over night. He was in his late 60s or early 70s, and he had been dragging his leg behind him for years. We all knew him well, and he had received a substantial settlement from the people who had caused the accident in which he was injured. The doctors had discussed amputation. He instantly received all the muscle and feeling back in his leg and was immediately able to walk again. The next Sunday, he did one legged squats while testifying at church. I hadn’t seen anything like that before, and I really struggled to process it at that point in my life, but there was no denying what had happened. I’ve seen other notable miracles as well (though certainly not every time I pray). Now, I don’t necessarily expect you to believe me: I could be an internet weirdo for all you know. However, I invite you to get to know more people who are going after these things. There are literally millions of us, and many, many, many of us have similar stories. By the way, these miracles often lead to the conversion of unbelievers, just like in the book of Acts. There’s a reason that continuationists are expected to make up a majority of the world’s Christians by the end of the century.
@@JesusProtects My husband was to have a large embedded polyp removed from his colon. He had already had one removed in the same location. The first surgeon marked marked the area of concern and when he went to a more specialized surgeon (because it more deeply embedded), there was zero evidence it was ever there. The embedded polyp…GONE. The scar tissue from the first removal… GONE. The INK MARKING the first surgeon had put there…GONE!
@@JesusProtects Craig S. Keener's "Miracles Today" gives even medical evidence that such are still occurring. Give it a try.
I appreciate you sharing your experience. I've always turned up a skeptical eyebrow at claims of being "slain in the spirit" or "resting in the spirit". But hearing about it from someone like you makes it way easier to believe.
My spiritual life is about as dry as packaging peanuts, but I have had one charismatic experience. I saw an aquaintance advertising on FB that she was in need of a kidney donor. Upon seeing that advertisement, I suddenly knew that I was the necessary donor. There was no shock and awe in this realization. It was like finding $20 in your back pocket which you forgot was there.
That was 8 years ago (crazy how time flies). My left kidney (Lefty) is still doing strong work for my friend. After she got healthy, she was able to get married and have a kid.
But it all started with this "word of knowledge" which didn't actually consist of words.
fascinating! Awesome that you were obedient to your realization. Thanks for sharing!
Wow God let you to give your literal kidney to someone. That's on another level
Grew up "high" church Anglican. I once dismissed some of the Gifts of the Spirit, especially the glossolalia. Until one day, during a session of sincere and fervent prayer, it happened to me. The last thing I was thinking of was talking in tongues. It was completely different to everything I expected. It opened my spiritual eyes. Nothing like the televangelists and "prosperity theology" types who make a big deal of it. It was like I was struck by lightning. The world seems different now. Speaking in tongues is like entering "The Domain of The Unspeakable". I am uttering that which ordinary speech lacks words for. In that moment I completely vulnerable and humble to the presence of God.
A question from someone who has never experienced this and does not know anyone that has.... do you understand what you are saying? And what is the perception of hearing yourself speak in tongues like compared to speaking your mother tongue and/or a foreign language you know.
@@truthmatters7573
I can answer, as a Pentecostal.
No, you don't understand yourself.
The perception? You just know ot is some real language, and that you don't control the words. You can stop at any time; you can switch to any language you know.
But this is a fluent tongue that just "flows"out of you naturally, and all you can tell is that it is fervent prayer for someone or something.
@@szilardfineascovasa6144 Great explanation!!
@@lindsaygraham9115
Blessings!
@truthmatters7573 I first spoke in tongues about 40 years ago. I didn't have a church background and had only been a Christian for about a year. It was a time in the church I attended, a Methodist church in the South of England, when God was doing something special. Many of the young people in the youth group I belonged to were being saved. Some were from church backgrounds, and others like me, weren't. During that time whole families came to the Lord.
I was at a youth meeting. I can't remember what the speaker said, but there was a sense of the presence of God in the place. After the talk, the speaker came up to me and laid his hand on my head and told me to speak the words he said. He started to speak in a language I didn't understand, but the moment I started to copy him I was speaking a new language fluently. I also had my one and only vision. I was in what looked like a market in a strange land and I was reading from a scroll from right to left. It only lasted a few second and was much more than a mental picture, it felt like I was there, I could hear people speaking and noises in the background. I don't know what it meant but it had a lasting effect on me.
Obviously my experience was unusual. But from that moment on I could speak in tongues and other gifts were released in me. I can speak in tongues whenever I want, there are no ecstatic feelings with it. I don't know what I am saying, however I sometimes have the impression of who I'm praying for and what it's about. Occasionally over the years I have given a tongue in a meeting which has been followed by someone interpreting it. I have been amazed at the beauty and Christ centredness of the interpretation and the deep desires of my heart being expressed.
In recent years I have been through a number of troubles. In 2005 I fell with an illness which stopped me from working and which I still have. In 2008 my eldest son died at the age of 25 in what appears to have been an accident.
I had number of years when I was processing the grief. God felt far off. My illness made it hard to attend church. And it felt like there was this huge obstacle between me and God.
One day I Was out on my mobility scooter, walking my dog and pondering things. I sensed God telling me to pray in tongues and to do so everyday. I didn't feel anything, but I sensed that God was doing something in my heart. Over the coming weeks and months things started to change. My heart started to heal from the grief and my relationship with God started to deepen. In longer felt the obstacle between us. Although I never received a full healing, my physical symptoms decreased.
So although tongues isn't the most important of the gifts, I'm grateful to God for how it has helped me.
Wow! What an amazing video, Gavin! I was raised in a continuationist family with Pentecostal beliefs, but have mostly attended cessationist, non-charismatic churches. Although I am firmly in agreement with continuationist theology and desire to let the Holy Spirit have complete control in my life, I am cautious and uncertain of exactly how spiritual gifts biblically play out in today's day and age. I don't want to have anything to do with the showy false teachers and fake displays of charismatic giftings! Your testimony really resonated with me, and thank you for sharing such a wonderfully honest and balanced approach to spiritual gifts!
I experience the gift in tongues in my sleep too. We I woke up, I continue to speak in tongues. I prayed for spiritual gift for 1 and half year and the Lord let me speak in tongue. I go to a Baptist church and they said spiritual gifts has ceased. It's a blessing to hear your testimony on your spiritual gifts. Thanks
Demonic
Whilst I am a type of continuationist,I find that many who claim to be prophets are not in the Biblical sense. Many who claim to heal do not, and many who claim to speak in tongues speak gibberish. Thank you Gavin for this excellent video.
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
ACTS 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
There is only One Mediator between God and men, LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by One Spirit to the Father
John 15:5
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20, 1 Corinthians, Galatians.
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
_
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics
Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.✝️🍞🍷 🕊️✝️
@AtR I take your point. I was trying to be gentle.
What do you mean gibberish??
@@raphaelfeneje486. A lot of charismatics are taught to initiate tongues on their own which means they begin to speak nonsense syllables and, I guess, hope it becomes real. The sounds they produce are repetitious. I have heard what sounds like a genuine language that was then interpreted.
I might consider myself a continuationist with exceptions. I believe that the Holy Spirit can move in anyone to pray for healing. I don’t necessarily believe that a particular person has an ongoing gift of healing. I know there are many cessationists who would also believe that. But I believe in the gift of tongues and words of knowledge, so I am not a cecessionist.
Dear brother, Gavin, I am a 60 year old; wrapping up an MA degree in Christian cultural/literary apologetics. I was vitally impacted by the charismatic renewal when it came to my island homeland of Jamaica in the late 70s early 80s. As a mother and homeschooler, I came under the influence of Calvinism. My children, millennials, and Genz-er Introduced me to your podcast. It has been most healing and reconciling to listen to this triage. Thank you so much for your commitment to the unity of the body of Christ but also to truth and honesty. I will be praying for God‘s continued blessing on your work. By the way, your parents’ministry - Ray’s radio program & Ann’s poetry- also nourished me as a young wife, aspiring writer & homeschooling mother. I stand indebted before God in gratitude for them both! …and now you!!🙌🏾🙌🏾🙌🏾🙏🏿
so wonderful to be connected to you, thanks for the kind words! :)
I know this is an 11 month old video but I remember on June 9th of 2019
I had to go to a funeral and a wedding (my friend lost her husband he was only 24 years old)
I remember just the absolute heavy feeling of despair in the room, and I remember immediately breaking into tears upon feeling the weight of it all. When i walked up to his coffin I saw what awaited all of us and falling into a really deep distress that i just couldnt shake...I couldn'tmake sense of any of it.
I remember on my drive to the wedding, Just weeping in a loud voice to Jesus, crying out to him and begging Him to send help and to give me His presence lest I die.
Man, it really messed me up to whole day and i was the best man! 😅
But thanks be to God that I had a wonderful brother in Christ there at the wedding that i found comfort with. We were reciting scripture to each other and I couldn't remove myself from him.
At the end of the wedding i had to pick up my truck and he ended up giving me a ride. We spent the whole drive praying and when we finally got to my truck we started worshiping together and if that wasnt strange enough, he asked me if i had been baptized in the Spirit 😅
I looked at him sideways (mind you I was reformed and leaned very heavily into cessationism) and flat out refused to give into that "nonsense" 😂😂
Oh man, bless that mans patient heart! He laughed and just simply asked if he could pray for me, to which i agreed. He put his hand on my chest and prayed and asked that the Holy Spirit would come upon me, and while he was praying. I prayed in my head "Lord, im scared and I dont know whats going on but I trust You", after I said that I opened my mouth to ask God audibly (mind you! Audibly!) to help me but what came out of my lips was not english (and it definitely wasnt any other language i had ever heard of). I remember being so starteled that I physically tried to cry out "God help me im scared" but that language kept pouring out my mouth!
When I eventually stopped I sat there just dumbstruck at what just happened, and then my friend shouted "BROOO, You just spoke in tongues!!".
Needless to say I am no longer cessationist 😂
My friend afterwards asked me if i knew what day it was and i sarcastically replied "June 9th?" And he said that it was the day of Pentecost (yes, the literal day of pentecost). God has an amazing way of meeting us in times of need.
Dear Pastor,
I could not avoid having tears in my eyes for this teaching. Having seen so much controversy and also chaos within churches and at the same time loving to listen to people like Dr. John MacArthur on the fundamentals of the Christian faith, I have always thought of the same on spiritual gifts, as to why they have not ceased. Simply because I could not find this in Holy Writ and the promise and the continued work of the Spirit in believers.
Without knowing many of them to whom you refer to, I thank the Lord for his annointing that teaches.
Thank you for being faithful to His Word.
Wow, you're the first Calvinist I hear to share this type of testimony
Such an encouraging video, Gavin. As a fellow Calvinist and Continuationist, I salute you 🫡
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
ACTS 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
There is only One Mediator between God and men, LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by One Spirit to the Father
John 15:5
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20, 1 Corinthians, Galatians.
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
_
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics
Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.✝️🍞🍷 🕊️✝️
@@mynameis......23 I would rather be catholic than calvinist
@@mynameis......23 awesome break down thanks for the ammo
@@mynameis......23 this has nothing to do with catholicism, why are you doing so?
@@theistengineer2850 He just carpet bombing w/ Christian team sports and it's not at all edifying.
Was so glad to hear you say “I’m a continuationist.” Me too, man! Looking forward to hearing the rest of this video! :)
his video was extremely helpful!
As someone considering cessationism vs. continuationism, this was incredibly helpful. Thank you, Gavin.
I find this combination of personal transparency, intellectual honesty and charity very attractive. Well done!
“Intellectual honesty” only because you agree friend. It isn’t objective at all
@@Scribeintheink I don't agree with everything Dr. Ortlund puts forward, so I'm not sure you can *objectively* attribute my perception of his intellectual honesty to mere agreement. What I do appreciate is that he cites his sources, and strives to be faithful to authorial intent when he quotes from the Church Fathers and academic literature in general.
@@Scribeintheink The Bible literally doesn't support cessationism.
This teaching came to me just when I needed it. Thank you for your teaching and your transparency.
I’m a cessationist, but I resonate with what you are saying at 15:30. I have felt many a time fearful of mishandling Gods precious word before preaching but the only thing comforting me as I stand up to preach is the Holy Spirit, a very real presence and grace.
the issue I have with charismatics is the insistence that the Holy Spirit is only miraculous signs and wonders and not the main purpose of the Spirit, to help us focus on Jesus, to trust God in all things, to live holy lives, to increase in love for others and sanctification, growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus
God gave Harriet Tubman visions that allowed her to stay safe and save many people during the underground railroad. Dr. Ortlund, thank you for being so honest and sharing your testimony and giving enough scripture support on this topic. I am so grateful to God for allowing me to experience several of the gifts of the Spirit, because although it has always been important to me to be a well educated Christian that can answer questions from well educated people, it has been Holy Spirits gifts that had strengthened my faith. I tell my Budhist, Catholic, Muslim, Jehova Witness and Atheist friends, no matter what they can show me to disprove Jesus, no body can take away my experience and in-dwelling of Holy Spirit from me, the miracles I've been able to witness with my husband, seen people set free from demonic spirits in Jesus name, we are always left feeling so humble and giving Him all the glory.
yes wow I have experienced waking up speaking in tongues as well. So good to hear others have this experience and I am nor crazy.
Thank you for this video. I've found in the last few years that I have struggled immensely against intrusive thoughts. I got plugged into a Christian counselor who suggested spiritual warfare as a potential cause. Growing up in "Macarthurite" cessationist circles, this has all been very new to me. I can't help but sometimes feel silly, although I have seen results in my own life. I find that reminding the spiritual powers of the end times has been effective - they're all mere footstools under Jesus' feet, while I am an adopted son. Great comfort there. I could listen to you talk about this all day!
Thanks for sharing that! Great testimony. Somewhat related to reminding the dark powers of the end times, I love the quotes that CS Lewis started off Screwtape Letters with: (1) Luther: “The best way to drive out the devil, if he will not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and flout him, for he cannot bear scorn.” (2) St. Thomas More: “The devil…that proud spirit…cannot endure to be mocked.”
@@TruthUnites Those are great quotes! Thanks for sharing. Just to clarify, when I said I feel silly sometimes, it's just because I'm not used to it yet. Not that I don't believe it 😁
By the way, I am excited to tune in and hear you speak at Beeson in November. When I finish my Bachelor's degree, God willing, I'll be headed up there for my Master's!
@@jgiaq awesome! I am looking forward to being at Beeson, it seems like a wonderful place. Hope to see you there
Gavin,
Finally got around to watching this whole video today and I must say, I’m so glad I gave it a chance. I almost didn’t listen to it because it feels like I’m always wrestling with some new issue and it honestly gets old after awhile. So to be 100% honest, I’ve found myself leaning toward the cessationist side of this issue… and I was more or less enjoying the comfort of feeling “settled” on an issue for once! But what you’ve said is really challenging but also very helpful.
Thank you so much for your honesty and willingness to help us wrestle through this controversial issue.
You’ve given me a lot to think about!
God bless you and your ministry!
“Let us not judge each side by its extreme examples.” Very good discussion.
oh, my so much of your spiritual walk is like mine My hunger for more of Holy Spirit, waking at night and not being able to stand. Etc. Sweet Holy Spirit
Extremely well researched and presented. We all appreciate your hard work to tackle these issues.
No. It isn’t
Miracles happen every day brother. Most go unreported!. Great topic very well done. BTW. I was healed on the operating table after falling 1200 feet, fracturing my skull in six places, receiving frontal lobe contusions, and having a blood clot removed from the base of my brain. There's a lot more to the story but not enough room here!!. God bless. 🙏❤️🙏
Amen!
This cessationist can only say Amen, praise be to God who works miracles. 😅
Wow 1200 feet ...praise the most high God
wow that's amazing, praise God! Very glad you're still here my friend.
Do you have a video testimony of your healing? Sounds incredible! 😱
Thanks for this excellent content, Gavin. At times I have felt some pressure to cave to the respectability of cessationism in reformed circles, and admittedly it does solve some tensions in systematic theology that the continuationist has to deal with. Nevertheless, on an exegetical level, it is overwhelmingly clear that the Bible does not teach cessationism
That has been the sticking point for me as well--I just don't see cessationism in the Bible. However, I see so many abuses in charismatic circles, it makes me want to run the other way.
@@melodysledgister2468 I can totally relate. I’m thankful to be a part of an imperfect, but generally healthy and Bible-based reformed charismatic church :) But I generally use the word “continuationist” rather than “charismatic” when speaking with reformed brothers and sisters from other churches, because people hear “charismatic” and they automatically think of Benny Hinn!
@@andrekershaw6244 Charismatic works for me. There's a branch of charismatic Catholics as well, in good standing w/ their church. I do like the term full gospel too though. Benny Hinn is a prosperity preacher.
This video was so helpful for me Gavin. I too am more of a novice in theses areas so this has been both comforting and instructive.
Loved this, Gavin. I’m a former Baptist, now Evangelical Presbyterian...and enthusiastically continuationist. (I just finished a sermon series on the Holy Spirit from this perspective.) I’m always grateful to run across brothers who are Reformed and continuationist. Thanks.
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
ACTS 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
There is only One Mediator between God and men, LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by One Spirit to the Father
John 15:5
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20, 1 Corinthians, Galatians.
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
_
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics
Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.✝️🍞🍷 🕊️✝️
amen! God bless your ministry, friend
Wow, a Presby Continuationist? Is that common?
@@NomosCharis Haha! It’s not common in most Presbyterian circles, but it is in the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC). if interested, you can read our position paper on the Holy Spirit: epc.org/wp-content/uploads/Files/1-Who-We-Are/B-About-The-EPC/Position-Papers/PositionPaper-HolySpirit.pdf
Just out of curiosity, do you have to take exception to any confessional standard to function as a Presbyterian elder in your denomination? Thanks!
Another great video. Much appreciated! When I was in the process of coming out of agnosticism I experienced the following miracle. I prayed for a friend of mine and the power of God "shot out" of my hands precisely when I said ‘in the name of Jesus’ and God healed him. It was a very real, tangible power. When I begin to doubt God, this is one of the things I refer back to bolster my faith. I've read that miraculous healings are occurring in China on a massive scale.
Thanks for sharing that story. Wonderful to remember that God is living and active.
Oh really? Could you please share the source you read this from. 😅
@@zacdredge3859 I'm not sure where he read it specifically, but many such reports are documented in Craig Keener's 2 volume work "Miracles", and on a more accessible level his book "Miracles Today". There are more books than just these of course, but Keener is one of the first to come to mind when someone is looking for documented miracles.
@@zacdredge3859 "As many as 80 to 90 percent of Protestants in China converted to Christianity because of a healing experience. Divine healing is not restricted to Pentecostals and Charismatics, but permeates mainline, urban, educated churches, including in the China Christian Council (CCC). After 1949 Communists forced foreign missionaries out and disbanded indigenous denominations. Laity democratically pray for church members, family, and coworkers, while offering comforting attention. Christianity grows because it seems more effective than other religions in meeting practical needs. Non-Christians not helped by Western or traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) seek prayers. Unlike “Prosperity” teachings, poor and marginalized Chinese Christians are less concerned with personal gain or using health to “prove” faith than offering holistic healing. Although Daoist and Christian folk religious elements may interact, charges of “syncretism” reflect urban, intellectual disdain. Pentecostal healing is socially empowering for individuals and communities and may help communication with promoters of liberation theology, Daoism, Confucianism, and Marxism."
@@zacdredge3859 Quote is from Oxford Academic.
What I like most is the consistent message regarding how those who disagree on topics like these can still be brothers and sisters in Christ and learn from each other’s position. I learn something new every time. Thank you Pastor Gavin for maintaining that level of charity in your Ministry. 😊
Debunking catholicism
I'm more blessed than mary
Proof = Luke 11:27-28
27 And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!”
28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
In Luke 11:27 that random woman LITERALLY said Jesus your mother is Blessed, but are Lord Jesus LITERALLY said Believers are more Blessed than mary. Amen and Amen
_________________________
CHRIST alone
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
ACTS 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
There is only One Mediator between God and men, LORD Jesus Christ= 1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.
Hebrew 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrew 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrew 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by One Spirit to the Father
John 15:5
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
_________________________
Work of God =
John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
_________________________
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach
Paul allows bishops to get marry, but catholic church goes against paul.
Now these catholic will give a Verses from 1 Corinthians7 to say that paul gave the advice to stay unmarried. But they will not tell you that the same chapter they quote says 1 Corinthians 7:28 "even if you do marry, you have not SINNED". The passage literally says "young women, young men" and a bishop is supposed to be a Church ELDER. Mic drop
_________________________
Jesus said Matthew 23:9
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
And also said Holy Father to Heavenly Father= John 17:11
11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
Jesus said call no one Father but still catholics call *pope holy father.
Sad
_________________________
Whenever a catholic argue about mary being the mother of God
Use this to defeat the argument.
Luke 8:21 But He answered and said to them, “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Matthew 12:46-50
46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”.
Mark 3:35 For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”
John 19:26-27
26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. ( Jesus basically said John is the son of mary, and mary is the mother of John from that time onwards).
By the way sarah is the mother of all proof=Galatians 4:21-26.
_________________________
We should not pray to apostles
Romans 1:25
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Acts 10:25-26
25 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”
Acts 14:15
15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them,
Revelation 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
Revelation 22:8-9
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Colossians 2:18
18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
You cannot go to Father through saints nor mary, you can only go to the Father through Lord Jesus Christ= John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
Holy Spirit intercedes for us=Romans 8:26
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
And CHRIST as well=Romans 8:34
34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
Hebrews 7:25
25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
It's Christ and Holy Spirit who intercedes for us not apostles
_________________________
Apostles are allowed to marry,
1 Corinthians 9:1-5
1 Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? 2 If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we have no right to eat and drink? 5 Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?
If Peter (peter is cephas read John 1:42) the so called "first pope" was married, why does the catholic church doesn't allow "pope" to marry?
_________________________
The so called vicar of christ/ pope/holy father Peter called himself a fellow elder in 1 Peter 5:1, and as per the qualifications of elder in Titus 1:5-9 the elder is allowed to get married; then why does the "pope" is required to be celibate and catholic? ( when Peter was neither celibate nor catholic).
1)Peter was not perfect human nor was he a perfect disciple
2)He sank down while walking on water
3)Our Lord said to peter get behind me satan
4)Peter reject our Lord 3 times
5)Our Lord rebuked Peter for calling fire from heaven
6)Our Lord rebuked Peter when he cut of the soilders ear
7)Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocrite because he was acting different in front of Jews and different in front of gentiles.
8) Moses messed up, and he was a important part of Bible ( that's why he never entered the promised land),
9)David messed up ( and he has the Holy Spirit),
10)King Soloman messed up,
11) Saul messed up and God regretted the decision (1 Samuel 15:10-11).
Hatrick (Saul then David then Soloman back to back messed up)
12)The apostles run away a day before Lord Jesus got locked up.
13)The early church messed up Rev 2:18-20, 1 Corinthians, Galatians.
14) Apostle John when receiving Revelation worshiped an angel and the angel said "see you do not do that. Worship GOD" Revelation 22:8-9
If these great people could mess up, why do you think the catholic church wouldn't mess up.
_
Galatians 4:21-26
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Sarah is mother of all, Not mary
Also the Church has many name like Christians, Evangelists, Children of God, Believers, servents of God, bride of Christ, but not once the Church is called catholics
Changed the 10 commandments by deleting 2nd commandment, and dividing the 10th into 2 commandments. Also changing the real Saturday Sabbath to fake sunday sabbath.✝️🍞🍷 🕊️✝️
@@mynameis......23 I think you're missing the point of both Dr. Orlund's channel and Joel Champ's comment.
@@mynameis......23 I never get tired of this comment.
i appreciated this too!
@@mynameis......23 I hope someone gives me edifying correction if I ever go on comment hijacking sprees, clipping and pasting the same message over and over. my name is, perhaps you should start your own channel or blog. The spamming is lazy and disrupts the discussion that builds in the comment section. Bringing this back to the topic of the video, your posts remind me of a charismatic who visited the Presbyterian church I was attending who began to loudly speak in tongues in the middle of Sunday worship service. Truth, or what you believe to be true, does not give unfettered license for complete unruliness.
When I came across this video, I thought you were another reformed Baptist coming tell me that spiritual gifts is a strange fire...but the more i listened to your story i became interested in your perspective. But now I see you have a very balanced view about all these things.
I was raised catholic but became charismatic in my teens and today i think it is better to be a believer following Christ Jesus and not another Christian denominational label.
Gavin - thank you for this video. i have been considering these Scriptures for the past few weeks. i believe God placed this video in my path to open my heart to the Spirits gifts. thank you, i am now a continuationist!
Thanks for sharing that, wonderful to hear!
Thank you for this wonderful and balanced teaching. And greetings from Czech Republic 🖐️
Great video Dr. Ortlund. Balanced and biblical and as a Pentecostal pastor myself it was much appreciated.
Great video Dr. Gavin God bless you
Thank you for this video. I recently became a continuationist and have struggled what to do attending a functionally cessationist church. Your thoughts at the end have given me some more to think about, as well as peace that we don't necessarily have to leave the church we love and are currently grounded in, to rush off to find a charismatic church.
Gavin, I discovered Truth Unites a few months ago, and have genuinely been blessed by many of your words since.
One of your defining characteristics is your irenical approach to handling conflict between believers, but it's so uniquely balanced by your courage and competence in arguing for Truth despite that conflict. I 100% believe that it is a spiritual gift the Lord has given you to fulfill your ministry to His body.
I earnestly pray for a spiritual encouragement over you and your family as you pursue your calling, and I would like to personally encourage you that our Lord and the Holy Spirit will go as deep with you as you want to go on this. Further up and further in ❤️
God bless you, brother!!
I am currently at your testimony on gifts and I have to pause and comment. I belong to a charismatic christian church sir but don't have the gift of tounges. I am amazed that you have it. ❤️❤️❤️. You are right, the problem in a charismatic services is they want to have a result.. so most of the time people are just forced to do it. I appreciate your effort to unite Sir. Indeed, in essentials things unity, in non-essential liberty, in all things charity.. God bless you Sir.
I loved hearing you are actively seeking communion with the Holy Spirit
amen to this!
Gavin, I have been looking forward to this video you did here for a couple or few months. You absolutely did not disappoint! I will be sharing this with multiple people. Thanks so much for your perspactive here!
so glad it was useful to you, thank you for letting me know!
Loved it, Dr. Ortlund! Your theological triage videos are my favorites
This was wonderful, Gavin! I was actually very touched listening to this. Praise God.
Thanks so much for this video. Your honesty always comes though and I look forward to each one. I love your thorough treatment of the issues. Tony
This was incredibly helpful and encouraging, and came to my recommendations at just the right time. Thank you so much!
Thanks, Brother for this video. We have so many spiritual things in common. Keep speaking the truth.
As a Charismatic Presbyterian I was very encouraged by this video
I waited to watch this video, as I was expecting something quite different. Where I would have my own views challenged. Turns out you surprised me and I agreed with you quite a bit. Thank you for not only being intellectually curious and studied, but also spiritually soft hearted and open to the Holy Spirit.
Thank you brother for sharing your testimony in this area! Very helpful and encouraging.
Great message Gavin. I suspect there are many others who have been worried about using the gifts of the spirit and might
have quenched the spirit for a season (or more) because of uncertainty, even after experiencing spiritual gifts first hand, even miracles!
In all churches…
Thanks Gavin. May the Lord keep equipping you for His glory.
My biggest roadblock to continuationism is my experience of the reality of the Charismatic movement. It is overwhelmingly populated by obvious frauds and my time in the totally-not-a-cult had tons of people speaking false prophecies over me and pressuring me to pretend to speak in tongues to "prove" my salvation.
I hear you. The abuses can be personally painful, ecclesiologically divisive, and even theologically blasphemous. Thankfully, the abuse of a thing is not evidence against the right use of that thing.
@@joshuaschooping6227 at what point are the scales tipped?
@@FalconOfStorms - That's a complex question, to be sure, since error manifests in all sorts of ways. For the possibility of error in praxis, whether of Gifts or asceticism, is legion, just as the possibility of heresy in doctrine is also legion. "Orthodoxy" in each must have identifiable boundaries. In that light I would suggest that when the Gospel is not preached, when the doctrine of justification by faith alone through grace alone is lost sight of, when the exercise of the Gifts become a kind of de facto system of merit, when the regulative principle of worship is abandoned, when reverence and awe are gone, when doctrine is treated like it doesn't matter, when maturity and accountability are nowhere to be found, when the sacraments aren't administered properly, when consciences are being violated and freedom in Christ being legalistically curtailed, and so on, then it would seem like the scales are tipped or tipping. It would seem the mystical Body of the Church is sorting out just the kind of question you asked.
@Sesquipedalian - I would agree that there needs to be some kind of pastoral discipline regarding the misuse of any gift. The scope of NT prophecy, however, is different than in the the OT, and confusion on this point would create extreme havoc on so many points, not just the use of the Gifts.
That said, the scope of NT prophecy is not really about foretelling the future, but forthtelling for the sake of encouragement, comfort, and repentance, and what is more the NT allows for error. How do we know it allows for error? Because Paul says that if a person gives a prophecy in church then to let two or three people weigh it, and this weighing process is precisely one of discerning its accuracy to the truth. If it were found to be unsound then it would be rejected, and if it seemed a person was habitually giving erroneous prophecy then I'm sure a healthy church would have a pastoral process that would get engaged, whether to guide the person into a more mature discernment, to silence or forbid them from speaking for a time, or perhaps to remove them from the congregation if it were deemed malicious or if the discipleship process were rejected.
@Sesquipedalian - being fearful of speaking false prophecy would not be an argument in favor of cessationism, but of deep reverence and awe. Your question sounds more centered on concerns for the disciplinary procedure for error. As such, knowing that Christ paid for all sin and that confession of sin receives pardon (1 John 1), as opposed to stoning in the OT civil environment, then confession of error and repentance would seem to be part and parcel of the disciplinary process in the NT. I would encourage a deeper integration of the significance of the Cross, union with Christ, and partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1) in considering the distinction between an OT and a NT biblical theology of the NT gifts.
Regarding the possibility of error, the verse in question is:
(29) Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. - 1 Corinthians 14:29 ESV
The Greek word for weigh is to judge, to discern, to separate truth from error, and so clearly this is in the context of believers in a gathering. What is more, Paul also defines the scopos of prophecy as for comfort, exhortation, and repentance, and future-telling is not included in the NT description of the NT prophetic gifting (which is a fairly major difference from the OT office). Paul also says that those who are spiritual ought to restore an erring brother in all gentleness, which also informs the disciplinary process.
I worried a little before watching the video that you would be a cessationist. I’m glad you are Continuationist. I don’t speak in tongues myself but my daughter does. She didn’t even ask for it, He just gave it to her. I believe that the Spiritual Gifts are available to those who are open to it and they will be available until the perfect has come (1 Corinthians 13:10).
During church service, a brother sitting next to me leaned close and said, 'God gave me a word for you. We need to talk after the service.'
This brother is a retired pastor, and I have a lot of love and respect for him. Plus, this was the first time someone had a word from God for me. I was awed by the importance of what I was going to hear.
During our talk, he read from the Bible about the spiritual gifts God gives his children. He then said, 'God said to use your gift.' He then asked if I spoke in tongues. I explained years ago, I did, but it was infrequent and always spontaneous. I was a lukewarm Christian then and didn't take it seriously because it sounded like gibberish.
We both agreed it was time to take it seriously, but I was concerned that since it was spontaneous when It happened before, I didn't know if I could do it on demand.
He encouraged me to give it a try, and he prayed for me. Then he began speaking in tongues. It seemed longer, but it probably wasn't much more than a minute before I started to speak in tongues myself.
A few days later, it now comes easy as the Holy Spirit leads me and is my prayer language.
God is Good!
You’re supposed to have a translator if you’re with someone, or in silent by yourself with God, otherwise tongues has no use, it is to be a message for yourself or someone else, it is a service, not a feeling a lone.
@@zealandsword9557I only speak in tongues in private during prayer.
@@fletcher3913 You’re doing all the things right then!
Nothing remotely Biblical about anything in your comment.
A few words from
Apostle Paul:
1 Corinthians 14:2: "For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries."
1 Corinthians 14:5: "I wish that all of you could speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues unless he interprets so that the church may be edified."
1 Corinthians 14:18: "I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;"
I have really enjoyed this series. Holding to Calvinism and continuationism can feel isolating, but I think this sort of unity is what the church needs. I’m blessed to go to a church where the leadership has different perspectives on these major issues, but still serves the kingdom side by side.
Also, I have been really encouraged by Sam Storms’ work on this issue, Calvinism, and Amillenialism.
Had a friend in high school who’s family line had a long history of the gift of prophesy. He had many vivid dreams over the years that correctly predicted future events either directly or cryptically.
I am a Christian, but the Holy Spirit has been a massive stumbling block for me. For some background, many years ago I attended a Christian youth camp and there were a number of events where people ended up rolling around on the floor and crying. One of these events I went with a friend who had been abused, the event was specifically for people who had suffered trauma. The lady speaking at this event gave a highly emotive speech about horrible things that had happened to her in graphic details - this caused many to break down in tears. When she finally finished, she prayed for the Holy Spirit to come. Which again ended with people crying, rolling on the floor etc...
So, from my perspective all it seems to be (I'm not saying it is) is psychological and emotional manipulation. I am open to the Holy Spirit working through me and others but seeing people roll around on the floor, laughing or crying, I think to myself "Is this really God?" and I really struggle to see any reason why it would be.
I've also been at services where hands are laid to heal, mostly for bad backs and sore knees. Again, I think to myself, "is this it, God? sore knees and bad backs?"
The Holy Spirit is literally God, one person of the Trinity. I guess it all just seems so unimpressive to me. Why don't we expect and see so much more?
There is also a documentary by Derren Brown (atheist magician/illusionist) who trains a normal guy to become a preacher and do "signs and wonders" which he does in exactly the same way many Churches do. Again, I'm not saying there are no gifts, signs, miracles etc but it seems I have more reasons to doubt than believe it.
Edit - Just to clarify, I'm not saying it's ALL psychological and emotional but from what I've witnessed a large chunk of it is.
Thanks for sharing what you saw. I think true miracles and true tongues from God today should be the same as described in the Gospels, Acts, 1st Corinthians, etc. If what we observe today does not match with what was written in the Bible, we are allowed to doubt unproven miracles and tongues.
P.S. I am a Continuist.
There are countless numbers of counterfeit so-called manifestactions of the Spirit that are more akin to mass hysteria or demonic manifestactions akin to pagan rituals. We must use discernment and wisdom to separate the authentic experience to a counterfeit revival. Lucifer can appear as an angel of light and deceive us. So, the prophecy that comes from these manifest actions must align with scripture and be 100% accurate or it is a deception. In the time of Paul, there was prophecy, but it wasn't chaos. It was orderly with an interpretation.
@@marcusee1234nation , Amen!
@@jjjsalang And how do you prove tongues?? How do you know what's real tongues?
Thanks so much, Gavin for your honest, heartfelt assessment of this issue. It was really encouraging to hear you speak on this issue, which I felt you shared very fairly. It was particularly interesting to hear you speak of Samuel Rutherford and his ‘Letters’! I also have benefitted so much from his writing. What I find quite incredible is how his ‘Letters’ can be read devotionally by reformed cessationists as well as Pentecostals(which I am one), and both be taken up in experiencing His divine Presence as described so beautifully by Rutherford. Thanks again!
This is very helpful, Sir! Praise God!
Another excellent video. Very interesting how you refer to Christian leaders in the past and their views. Amazing about Spurgeon's empowerment by the Spirit without being a "charismatic". So important how you stressed humility, unity and patience among all believers. May the Lord increase your ministry
Hi Gavin. I'm Jonathan Morris, I m a Vineyard ordained pastor currently leading a large coalition, mostly in the developing world, called CMC, or church multiplication. coalition
So helpful, Gavin. Makes me more resolute in my continuation-ism!
Amazing story about Spurgeon I didn't know that about him. My pastor often quotes him. I also just learned about Philippians 2:25 translation from you. Fascinating!
I love this series!! Thank you for making this.
New subscriber getting caught up on your older videos - I love everything about this video! I relate so much to your journey as someone who was theologically continuationist long before any relevant experiences happened (mostly because I was afraid to unknowingly fake an experience and deceive myself) But my favorite part of the video was the practical advice. As a continuationist mostly operating in circles that don't practice the miraculous gifts, I've had to learn how to navigate this difference and hate the division that so easily happens around this topic. You are right that humility is key. One thing that has helped me is to remember that my journey into these gifts came from a desire for more of God, but that I had that desire long before I learned how to walk in the gifts. So if someone is not operating in the gifts but is seeking all that God has for them, I just trust that if God intends for them to have those gifts, it will happen on His timeline, and that everyone's process will be different. And then don't judge their spiritual life in the meantime!
A very thoughtful, sincere video; also - love the interesting facts and stories sprinkled in! Your patience and kindness allways feels like an older brother is talking to me. And Sinclair Ferguson is awesome. :)
I didn’t know Samuel Rutherford and John Knox were continuationists! Thanks!
Awesome video, Gavin. This helped so much. Thank you (:
Love the work you're doing, Gavin. Always encouraged and impressed by your even-handed consideration of different views on these secondary/tertiary matters. I'm in a Presbyterian context but leaning more towards continuationism nowadays, although with none to minimal personal experience of extraordinary works of the Spirit.
Another topic I would LOVE to see a video or even a hefty series on, along these lines, would be the Sabbath: systematic-theological, biblical-theological historical-theological, NT exegesis, and practical-theological consideration of the continuity or discontinuity of Sabbath day-keeping, 7th and 1st-day Sabbath views, Reformed 'Lord's Day' as Sabbath or 'Lord's Day' as something somewhat or entirely different from the OT weekly Sabbath, total abrogation of Sabbath day keeping, etc., etc., etc.
Keep up the excellent work especially in pushing us all towards maximal church unity in love and truth!
I had a powerful Holy Spirit experience (among many others) April 10th 2011. I think it was when I got saved although I grew up nominally Christian. I had sentenced to incarnation by judge April 7 and on the 10th I was crying out to Jesus for forgiveness of my sins...some folks laid hands on me and I experienced an intense heat and burning in my chest followed by an overwhelming peace unlike anything I had ever experienced. I believe now that this was in accordance with the Scripture I baptize with water but the one that comes before me will baptize you with the Spirit and fire (paraphrase). As I was in my cell afterwards I picked up a Christian book when book cart came available and I read Jesus was crucified April 7 AD 32 and 3 days later He of course rose from the grave. I take this to mean I was being condemned by the world (in my case I was guilty for sin and breaking law) while in Jesus case He was condemned Innocent and Sinless, on the 3rd day He rose and on the 3rd day I was baptized by the Spirit that Resurrected Christ.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I’m wary of doing that. Great video.
That praying in “Jesus name” over situations and people and spiritual darkness is a strong testimony. I think it is the strongest “force” in the universe, if it can be called a force. So much can be said about it. Also a beginner here, but answered prayers against spiritual darkness when I was a new believer and the things that were happening to me is a huge testimony to me. You mentioned there was a time when “the Spirit” became of great interest to you in your walk, that’s where I am now, shedding a lot of the presuppositions of people(Calvinists) I was introduced to right from the beginning of my walk and now seemingly finding myself at a place where it’s like “the things of the Spirit” are what the entire New Testament is pushing us towards as believers, walking with the Spirit and being filled with Him, pray for me if anybody reads this, I want to experience God in the correct way and the way that He prescribes.
Wow, that was a great video! Thank you🤩
My wise old father says, “If it happened in the New Testament, it could happen to you.”
Thank you for this video, it was very helpful, God bless you pastor.
When I got saved I started to get these filthy thoughts in my head, some of them were towards God and it would really bother me but then I would start to speak in tongues, not knowing what I was doing or what speaking in tongues was but I would feel absolute peace after that. I thought I was loosing my mind at the time.
I asked someone at church what speaking in tongues meant and after they explained it to me they told me it was to early for me to speak in tongues. I told him the story and we both started laughing of joy.
God is so amazing.
thank you so much for your content..it's been such a gift to me and has helped me grow much in the knowledge of Our Lord and Faith...
that is so meaningful to hear, thanks!
Edifying. Thanks, Gavin.
What a fascinating testimony. I had a similar research experience going to a 7th day Adventist school as a Christian Missionary Alliance person at the time, about Saturday worship. My Brethren pastor Grandfather explained to me why we worship on Sunday. I am definitely a continuationist. I did not know anyone was anything else until the last year actually.
The beard looks good, man!
I like the definition of revival, God accelerating the normal👌
I appreciate your humility and your love for the church. Thanks for the video. I have Reformed sensibilities but so far, and it’s all a work-in-process, I don’t see the theological basis for cessationist arguments. I have seen entire congregations speaking in tongues to questionable dead orthodoxy (at least my perception). My fear is that people write the gifts off completely and wind up missing out on a blessing. Again, thank you for what you do. This is a very divisive topic for quite a few.
How did you know if the entire congregations you saw speaking in tongues had the same tongues as described in the books of Acts and 1st Corinthians in the Bible?
Thank you for this. I'm struggling with the cessationist and continuationist viewpoints after leaving a church where spiritual abuse was being covered up.
sorry to hear that; hope this helps!
@@TruthUnites it has helped massively my brother. Because this church is Charismatic it has pushed me away from my previously held views on continuationism. It has left me wary of the Spiritual gifts because this pastor was lauded as being 'prophetically gifted'. His teachings went unchallenged and he used twisted scripture to heavy shepherd the flock. His 'Thus saith the lord...' moments were wielded as a weapon to control the flock.
@@martynjukes482 sorry to hear that! May the lord bless you and direct you.
I suspect a lot of abuse in spiritual gifts especially in the charismatic or prosperity gospel circles...nevertheless I'm a continuationist although I strongly considered cessasionism for a time.
Great work brother!
Really excited for this one Gavin! Trank you so much for your continuing quest seeking as much unity as possible. Only one minute into the video and I already love it! Keep it up…
Have to pause your video again to tell you don't be embarrassed. We christians experience God, He dines with us so sometimes it is overwhelming. A sister in Christ in our Church was diagnosed with breast cancer. And we prayed. I prayed to God to help me with my unbelief on His healing. The sister is now free of cancer. This lady, as long as she lives free of cancer, is my living testimony that God still heals. 🥰 And it is enough for my faith.
Thank you for sharing! I was hopeful that you would talk more about tongues being different languages or how there should be a translator present in certain situations. I am still trying to sort out my thoughts on this topic and would love to hear more.
I’ve only gotten 17 minutes into this video so far but had to stop and comment already! Thanks so much for sharing your personal experiences with the Holy Spirit. Just listening to this I’m sensing the Holy Spirit all over it and actually experiencing a very tangible refreshing in the Holy Spirit while listening. This is so real and I, just like you, want to grow more and more in this dimension of Christian truth and experience. Thanks for this, Gavin!
Thank you Will! Talking about the Holy Spirit and our experiences is sometimes a wonderful stimulus to seeking more of Him, isn't it? Bless you!
@@TruthUnites Yes and amen!
As a continuationist turned cessationist - I appreciated this. I think often we speak past each other because we have differing views of that the spiritual gifts actually are. For example, I believe the gift of healing has ceased, but most firmly believe that God can and still does heal today. The difference being that I do not believe God gives specific individuals the gift of healing like we see Peter and Paul exercise in Acts. I'd argue from Eph. 2:20, Heb. 1:1-2, as well as a few theological considerations.
I would like your thoughts on one thing, since you mention the Reformed confessions. The WCF, Savoy, and LBCF all have speak of God in the past revealing Himself "at sundry times and in divers manners" but now, after His revelation has been committed to written Scripture, "those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased." (1.2). What's really interesting in this paragraph is that the writers view Scripture as being "most necessary" precisely because the former ways of revelation have now ceased. In other words, if God still revealed Himself as He did in former times (which is a reference to the time before the completion of the canon as seen by the phrase "to commit the same wholly unto writing") then it would seem that Scripture would cease to be "most necessary."
They also speak of the sufficiency of Scripture in 1.6 and then say "unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men."
I admit that this is not a fully fleshed out doctrine of cessationism, but these two statement at least seem to lean in that direction, particularly the statements in 1.2.
Another edifying video, Gavin. As a fellow Continuationist, I do share with most of your sentiments while also empathizing with the practical aspects of Cessationism due to the widespread abuse of charismatic theology in practice. I must say though, I'm interested in what you have to say about Pentecostal (or as you say it, Second blessing) theology. What are your thoughts of tongues as the initial sign for the (subsequent) Spirit Baptism?
Thanks Joel! I do not agree with second blessing theology. (And I'm with you on lots of abuses.)
Thanks Gavin. Really encouraged by your testimony and posting on this topic. Keep up the good work. We are expecting twin boys in December, (#5 and 6!!) so I'm about to be praying for the miracle of everyone sleeping through the night
twins! wow, exciting and challenging. the Lord be with you and your wife!
@@TruthUnites Thanks brother. We had a miscarriage and my wife prayed for twins... and God answered... I think she's crazy :)... what are your thoughts on contraception? I have wrestled with the idea of limiting offspring biblically
Great stuff!
Five kids! Five = number of grace. Grace grace upon you and your family 🙏🙏🙏❤❤
I'm a former pentacostal, current Baptist, modified continuationist. I think tongues always refers to real languages not gibberish, which better matches the goal of edification. Regardless, i think the more primary issue is the view of sanctification, progressive vs entire. The charismatic movement arose from the Wesleyan tradition which seeks a second-tier experience of entire sanctification. My personal story was one where this second-tier desire was very destructive and disillusioning. I assume that you combine a more healthy progressive view of sanctification, and i think continuation can be healthy in that context. But we must be careful that we do not accidentally endorse the entire/second-tier view of spirituality. There are miracles and gifts today, but they are not meant to make us deeper "super" Christians, but like you said the purpose is edification. Cheers!
I have Rutherford's Lex Rex on my shelf, to think he was a continuationist is just so fascinating.
Thank you for your honesty and sound Biblical thinking! I am with you on this!
A wonderful book for this study would be Charismatics and Evangelicals by David Pawson.
Hey brother I really have enjoyed your video I want to let you know that they have been a blessing to me. I did want to ask you though if you could make a video on the early fathers and their view of predestination
Continue the beard!
It would be awesome if you could have Dr. Michael brown come on your channel and talk about this together. He is a continuationist too.
Very cool hearing your story! You mentioned Wimber in your story. I remeber hearing his story about how after a crazy outpouring of the Soirit where everybody was slain on the Soirit or speaking in tongues and telling some upset people in his church they would go no further than "this book" (his Bible). He was surprised they were comforted by that idea, saying (maybe just in his head "do you really know what's in this book?"
It seems to me being a cessationist would be like trying to explain how football is played and arbitrarily deciding that it no longer includes pass plays because you've never thrown one, it's too risky and the quarterback could get hurt and it's too weird based on your own truncated experience of football. But then explaining to others that it's because the founder of football intended for passes to be played for the first century of football in order to make it exciting and gain an audience but that it was supposed to then go away.
This is such a welcomed video in my current consideration of different ministries. I grew up in congregations with a very formal liturgy and a stodgy Calvinism but allowed speaking in tongues during retreats and revival meetings. I can see how hearing someone speak in tongues can freak out believers who were never exposed to it in their Christian development. There is greater acceptance with healing and prophecy I think, as many might consider those things as aspirational prayers.
There are congregations, still, that see these uncommon spiritual gifts as indication of true belief or spiritual maturity. I don't think it is. They are gifts and not something earned. I have also come across tongue-speakers that were rather immature (based on my imperfect measure), which brings me to the quandary on my mind lately: If the Holy Spirit can fall upon these individuals in such powerful ways, why doesn't the Holy Spirit convict in terms of right doctrine and right living. If a person can be inspired to speak in tongues in the moments of communion with the Spirit, wouldn't there be a common message spoken to the individual about Scripture, whether in correction or affirmation? I understand that we have broad commonality among Protestant Christians, but the division in doctrine seems to be very human, and it seems it is through human effort, Spirit-led of course, that these divisions are mended. Which is why I think your channel and similar channels are so important.
yeah, thats a clear indicator of a legitimate gift
do they exhibit the fruits of the Spirit? the Spirit won't give a gift and work in no other way....