The Veil of Ignorance - The Atheist Experience
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- Опубліковано 18 вер 2024
- Produced by the Atheist Community of Austin.
The Atheist Experience # 808 Clip.
Hosted by Matt Dillahunty & Jeff Dee.
April 7, 2013.
Meet Benjamin from Tel Aviv, Israel. Benjamin calls the show to talk about how important it is to be able to logically express ideas. He refers to personal experiences and how it's impossible for a person to understand another person's feelings. Matt and Jeff don't understand the problem, but the main issue seems to be establishing morality when people have fundamental differences. He refers to the veil of ignorance approach, and explains how it can be helpful in establishing fairness. Enjoy.
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Empathy and a willingness to understand what someone is trying to express is all that is necessary.
+Robert Coffey Critical thinking skills are necessary if you want to discuss philosophy.
Certainly. As long as I'm not asked to participate in, or pay respect to, whatever they're trying to express.
The veil of ignorance.
My friends and I used to employ a similar method when dividing up the pot we just bought.
One person would divide the pile into two, and the other would choose which pile they wanted.
No one can be upset with that.
Oggy Oggy we did that as well
Oggy Oggy I use a scale 😂
Oh my God I just left the exact same comment
@@KpDKGaming and I also replied to myself and said of course you don't always have a scale
The only problem with that method is everyone else's a junkie so they always wanted to pic and refuse to split and of course I always offered to split because I'm not a junkie piece of s*** and I'm more of a normal human being. I've literally almost fought over this s*** before cuz thats just how junkees are.
The moment they say "my atheist friends.........."
Lets be realistic: we cant feel another persons physical pain, but all humans suffer and feel pain and know what it is,have a brain that registers pain and we can understand/have empathy towards others who are suffering.
People internally scale such things as "pain". Perhaps a person's individual pain is different from another person's but, because over time people have many experiences of pain plus the fact that we are humans, we can postulate that people can understand the pain of others. This is how empathy is attained.
When someone stubs their toe, I can feel their pain. It hurts. It is also dam funny!!
Normal healthy people have empathy and that allows us to "experience" the pain and joy of others. When you see someone bang their thumb with a hammer, you can, through empathy, that is created by the brain, also feel the pain experienced by the one actually being hit. When brains have been wired up in the lab, they can see how our brains react when we are empathizing with another's experience and the same areas of the brain are activated in both the actual person experiencing it also show up in the observer.
Well said, I was actually waiting for Matt to say what you've just said.
We can't "feel" the pain, but we can learn from the experience without having it ourselves.
Monochromicornicopia Well, I don't know if others have experienced this, but I do get a physical reaction watching someone take a fall or a hit to the groin on a show like America's Funniest Home Videos. It feels like....well, you know how you feel if you rock back too far on a chair's back legs, for a split second before it falls with you in it? That's the reaction.
gspendlove
That feeling is generated by the physical input that *we* are experiencing. That is not a reaction to an input experienced by *others*.
Monochromicornicopia It is caused by a well established fact in neuroscience that we have what is called mirror neurons so that when we see another experience pain, our brains light up as if we did too. That is unless you are a psychopath.
Is this why i cant bear 'fail ' videos the ouch moment makes me squirm?
Nice guy. I enjoyed this civil discussion.
I liked Benjamin's point about his approaching an argument from a non magical thinking point of view and a theist starting from a magical thinking point of view. It usually ends up with the theist either claiming that opposing POV is also magical thinking or that the theist isn't using magical thinking either. Both are funny to hear, but the argument is never settled
When my dog yelps and moves away from me, I know he is conscious of pain.
It might be wind. It soon passes.
The smell gives me confirmation,
Killing a clone would be the same as killing an identical twin, since that is, essentially, what a clone is, even though your births might be years apart. Your clone would be a separate person, not you in another body, just as identical twins are separate people, not one person in two bodies.
'The 'religious conversation' cannot happen because my pain can't be experienced by those im talking to'.....I don't see how that's even a coherent point. Also I'd say 'my pain' is pretty much similar to 'your pain'...if we both burn our fingers on a hot skillet, it's going to be pretty similar, so I don't see what Benjamin is talking about.
Physical pain is one thing, and emotional pain is another. Though what he meant is that pain is easier to relate to than happiness. This is mainly because of the fact that our bodies are more inclined to remember pain clearer than joy. This is of curse a consequence of survival. Though in the same manner, joy is a stronger emotion.
I think he meant, how do we progress in a society where some people think homosexuality is immoral and others dont. The simple answer is, we either talk about morality, or we don't progress, or we force change. That's pretty much all you can do.
"Life is a tragedy when seen in closeup, but a comedy in longshot." -- Charlie Chaplin
The most difficult thing to give up is one's own suffering--invaluable
insight into the determination of some folks to be miserable.
No, since your clone would be made of completely different atoms.
It's just a question that provides interesting food for thought since there are plenty of technicalities and things to consider.
Glad to see Nagato got through on the phone
+Jesus Martinez
i get it
ssabykoops haha awesome
Jesus Martinez Is this some kind of weeaboo mating ritual?
CarnalKid I forget what I was referencing, gotta rewatch, not even mad
I remember now, all that talk about pain...
Definitely!
This caller is talking tripe. If he broke two ribs in a car accident last year and I broke two ribs 6 months ago falling off my bike the two of us can certainly discuss our pain regarding broken ribs.
A clone of you would start out as a fertilized egg, just as you did. It would not be a duplicate of the adult you. It would not have your memories and experiences. It would get its own, over the course of its life, just as you have.
Happiness should be explained as doing anything to make one happy that DOES NOT have a negative effect on anyone or anything else. Simple. Problems occur when people do things that hurt or harm other people, animals, or the environment.
B H But someone CAN be happy at someone/something else's expense.
pain pleasure totally arbitrary, depending on the individual. happiness not a goal unless you're an englishman...
True. It may all boil down to consciousness. This question is a little more complex than it sounds. lol
Well if your identical twin is essentially a clone and having sex with them would be incest then wouldn't having sex with your clone be incest?
It would be like killing your identical twin clones only share a completely similar DNA structure but they are two completely different individuals
Interesting convo
Incorrect. We know that a bleeding bowl is some if the worst pain because we all experience it the same way.
my question would be, how does any sort of theism help in this situation?
having a god or a supreme being or any sort of supernatural thing, isn't going to change the subjectivity of experience. I still can't feel your pain, and you still don't see my red.
On the other hand, since this video was made, we had not advanced quite as far, and now we are learning that a lot of this isn't as subjective as we tend to believe. Recent research has enabled computers and brain scans to actually show what a person is imagining in images of the object being imagined. If the computer can interpret the brainwaves of different people and discover what image they are imagining, then there MUST be something fairly "universal" about the states that create those images (else the computer could not "decode" them accurately across individuals)
I would guess that your red is pretty damn close to my red, and your pain is pretty much the same as mine. If I stub my toe, with the same force as you stub yours, I'd tend to bet the signals in the brain are similar enough that we could devise a measuring system that would prove to be fairly accurate.
That’s not true - no machine can interpret someone’s brainwaves and show images of what the person is imagining. Technology isn’t anywhere near being able to do that and likely will never develop to that point.
@@DocBree13 they don't show what images the person is imagining, but they show in certain areas of the brain that we know are tied to specific images or thoughts. Certain types of thoughts normally occur in certain areas of the brain, and we can read that and determine with fairly good success what the basic images and ideas the person is having are.
If you are unaware of this, perhaps you should do a bit of research into neuroscience... you might be surprised
Empathy, makes religion pointless.
Yes and no. Part of what makes you, you; is the memories and experiences that you go through. And not even twins live the exact same life.
And the atoms do play a huge part. The body(all of the atoms you held) you had as a baby, no longer exists. The atoms that make you up die off(so to speak) and new ones fill in the spot. So every 7 years, your body has replaced so many atoms that you are no longer the same physical assortment of atoms you once were.
A different body, but the same person.
but they'd still be me technically. The atoms would not be the ones I have but genetically they'd be identical which is what truly defines who and what you are.
Many experiences can made objective by making it measurable. You can measure pain on a scale of 0 to 10.
But picking the number is subjective
“To both you and I?”
This is similar to the 'philosophical' argument I hear about an apple for example, they'll say that I can't experience what someone else experiences when they're eating an apple, which I reject because we're all humans and how an apple tastes to me is pretty much just the same as how an apple tastes to other people. There might be some slight difference, but no one is eating an apple and to them it tastes like how a filet mignon tastes to me. That's just ridiculous an apple tastes pretty much the same to everyone.
Human tastes may be similar, but they are not the same. Some people disagree on whether certain candies taste like the fruit or berry that they emulate. It is very similar to colors. We don't know if we see the same color. We only know that we agree as a society to label wavelengths of light as specific colors. We agree because we see the same the wavelength, but our brains could be giving different labels to those same wavelengths. Colors and tastes don't exist outside of our minds.
Pretty much like I said.
davids11131113
No I was disagreeing with your statement that "how an apple tastes to me is pretty much just the same as how an apple tastes to other people".
davids11131113 You actually have no rational grounds to assert that everyone experiences the same tastes. The fact that some people detest the taste of food that others relish needs to be explained, as that degree of disparity is hard to explain through minor variations in personal taste experiences. With taste however, we should bear in mind that what we call "taste" is in fact a combination of more than the information conveyed by our taste buds, which are actually limited to no more than 5 different distinctions. The rest of the taste experience is governed by the addition of information conveyed regarding odour and texture. Finally, whatever the physical information about taste we are fed by our senses is filtered through our cultural conditioning - Westerners for example, will usually balk at eating things like insects, and the taste experience will be altered negatively by this despite it having no information regarding the ACTUAL taste.
I didn't say 'the same', in fact I made it wildly clear that an apple tastes 'pretty much' the same to all of us. Sure there can be outliers, some people may have more or less similar sense of taste, but no one is eating a waffle which tastes like how a shishkebab of steak and onions taste to me. A Belgian waffle tastes very similar to you and to me, within a certain scale.
I don't think so. He seems much more calm and professional than Mark.
That's what I though too.
Speaking of cloning. If you kill your clone, does that count as suicide?
caller tried to find a common ground with theists using empathy and common sense morality but both of these are poisoned and distorted by theist dogma.
You thought wrong. Clones in the real world aren't like clones in movies. They don't have your memories, your mind, etc. In reality, a clone would be nothing more than your IDENTICAL TWIN born at a different time. Are identical twins the same person? Do they have the same thoughts, desires, etc.? Of course not. Similar genetic information doesn't not equate to a 100% exact replica in every way imaginable.
Physically yes but again in essence they'd still be you. You are defined by your DNA, it's unique only to you correct? If they share an exact copy of your DNA then they are still you.
But the brain would be an exact copy so it'd share the memories and experiences.
Matt please do have empathy to farm animals
Yes but if I cut my finger off it will feel the same as if you cut your finger off.
Only for a moment though. I still wouldn’t know how losing a finger would feel - only you could know that.
davids11131113 said:"Benjamin is boring"
Sure he is if you're just here looking to amuse yourself with the procession of sub-literate retards making idiots of themselves as they try to argue absurd contentions armed only with ignorance and blind faith... but personally I find it a nice change to hear a discussion with an intelligent caller. It gives my brain cells a respite in which to repair themselves after being assaulted with the previous torrents of religious BS.
p.s. Why do people disable replies to their comments? If they have merit, they should be able to withstand any scrutiny, what's to be scared of?
'Disable replies'....I did no such thing. If you look again more carefully, it says 'No action on legacy comments'....that's not something I did that's a youtube function.
I'll be a bit more clear, Benjamin's argument is just pointless to me. 'We need to talk about pain'....I don't see what this is even supposed to mean, what's this have to do with religious discussion? It doesn't even make any sense, that's why I find this just boring and I wasn't 'scared' of anything here.
I found this caller irritating. Obsessed with "making a better society." How about you concentrate on making *_YOUR_* life better?
All right, so she dresses in really tight spandex, wears a mask, high heels and holds a whip. She tells me to lick her shoes and when I don't do it right she whips me. It hurts, but it hurts sooooo good. Well the question is should I believe in god?... Ow ow... okay, okay I'll stop typing. Sorry, gotta go.
Your jokeometer must need calibration.
Genetically they're still you. You still killed yourself. Remember now that these just arose as thought games, make people think. Since we don't have any known cases (as far as I'm aware) of someone having sex with or killing their clone then of course there wouldn't be words do define the acts.
The clone does not have your memories and is not you. Just like your sister may share more genes with you then a random stranger but is still not you. *I've cloned species in labs.
Goodness me, talk about over thinking things. This is the problem with deep philosophical, or religious conversations. The whole thing is so over thought that it collapses under its own weight. So desperate to be a deep thinker that he’s over looked the what’s important.
Watch this youtube video to counter these half truths:
Wretched: An atheist professor converts to Christianity
Benjamin is boring.
Males talking about knowing pain. LOL
+Angela Ryan The pains of childbirth are something that I definitely am glad I will never experience, and am so happy that women today have drugs to help out (when needed).
Much respect for anyone that can handle that.
I hear that childbirth is the most painful feeling in the worth, but I think that's a matter of opinion.
+Keith Langston Well, pain is measurable. We measure the passing of large kidney stones over the course of many days as the same level of pain associated with childbirth. The myth that childbirth is the greatest pain one can experience is simply a false statement.
Larr- Bear LOL. That's funny.
Angela Ryan
I take it you're a masochist since pains funny to you, or perhaps a sadist. regardless, if you are actually making a point state it.