Coolant can DESTROY your Engine faster than Bad Oil. Cavitation and Liner Pitting.
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2024
- In this video we discuss and show you how not maintaining your cooling system can damage your engine and what it looks like. Thanks for watching. Questions can be sent to AdeptApe@yahoo.com and you can directly support the channel on PayPal with AdeptApe@yahoo.com
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Equipment design engineers should be made to assemble and disassemble every component they design after it has been installed in a completed assembly. With hand tools.
You didnt mention the build designers? Who would know? :)
Indeed, 90% of new automotive designs are simply to give the appearance to the uninformed of an improvement.
The journeyman training me says this every week like clockwork! Annnnnd it’s 100% true
And not on an engine stand with everything easy to get at.
The CEO and board of investors is who needs to be targeted with this idea. They make the decisions. In an actual democracy, we could make this happen. In an actual democracy, decent people would decide such things as a society whole. That isn't capitalism though.
I'm not a diesel mechanic but watching and listening helps me to understand the mechanics behind the machine. Thank you for helping me understand better..
Wet sleeve/liner cavitation is a problem caused by poor coolant maintenance, whereby air bubble implosions within the coolant remove a protective coating from the exterior of the sleeve/liner. The combustion process causes the liner to oscillate (expand and contract) on the thrust side of the piston creating an area of low pressure which cause air bubbles to come out of the coolant following the contraction period. After contraction, the sleeve/liner then expands into the air bubbles causing the air bubbles to implode creating a shock wave of approximately 60k psi against the side of the sleeve/liner, continually removing small amounts of sleeve/liner material. Eventually, the liner wall becomes perforated, allowing coolant to enter the combustion chamber causing catastrophic failure.
Electrolysis is the destruction of metal parts in contact with an acidic coolant when stray electrical currents find their way between two dissimilar metals.
This video was a fine example, as Josh stated, of a cavitation issue precipitated by old neglected coolant performing its destructive effects.
That’s a supremely fire analysis, thank you! 60k PSI what the hell... a .45 calibre round produces around 50k PSI. My mind is absolutely blown, though it really shouldn’t be.
😨
@Random - No. Coolant pressure is determined by engine configuration, which is a lot to explain.
Well said!
Holy smokes, I love these kind of nerdy details. They stick with me for some reason. Please do more or make some vids! New diesel tech here came over from automotive and small equipment
I’ve been enjoying the content for years so keep up the good work boss.
Bolts like that are the reason engineers and mechanics can't be friends!!!
The assembles engine with those bolts, then is installed and the engineers job is done, not their problem now!
People just laught at me when i say maintain your cooling system, use the correct coolant, use the correct additives!
They be like "eeh cavitation? never heard of it, I doubt it's a thing really"
Thank you for this video :)
I worked for Loctite back in the 90's. We had an interesting case of cavitation erosion on Isuzu truck engines. These engines used a dry sleeve, and they were suffering from cavitation erosion into the block, which then allowed coolant to migrate down between sleeve and block. They were in a similar locale to your erosion. It was caused by micro porosity in the cast iron block.
As the coolant traveled around through the passages, it picked up speed as it turned the corner around the bend and dropped pressure in a way similar to air passing over an aircraft wing. The resultant pressure drop and the small cavitation 'explosions' picked away at the micro porosity and eventuated in a leak.
Initially the Isuzu engineers repaired the castings with a welding process, then re machined the block and inserted new liners. This was an expensive process. We trialed the Loctite Impregnation process on the block, which sealed up the porosity with no need to weld and re machine. It was successful. Saved Isuzu a lot of time and money. Eventually I believe they retooled the casting and eliminated the problem. If this is a common issue on your engines, maybe the LIS process could be used on the liners??
man wow why isuzu send engines to you to repair why they dont do it themselves
Awesome and interesting write up!
Excellent comment, it's interesting to hear that the Loctite process worked. Fascinating.
@@henrycoldrain8151because LocTite was using those for research.
Liner cavitation is usually caused by the “flex” of the liner under cylinder pressure. Or rather, by the rapid venting of that pressure. The liner snaps back to unexpanded size and the coolant immediately next to it sees a small but intense pressure wave that drastically lowers local boiling point. The coolant spot boils and the bubbles collapse when it converts back to liquid, releasing a small shock wave that is high enough in temperature and pressure to erode metal.
A mid-stop liner design is much stiffer and that’s why you almost never hear of cavitation on competing designs using mid stop liners.
Excellent description.
The last time I spotted something like that was on an old forklift a guy wanted me to do the engine head work on. I told him based on the condition of the cylinder walls, it might be best to do a full rebuild. He didn't want to do that... I managed to piece it back together, but customers like that inadvertently give technicians a bad name because they blame us for their negligence once the vehicle has a catastrophic failure... 😒
Your exactly right, I was a field svc tech for material handling equipment, they would say oh just replace the hose that’s leaking, I said when I do that the old lines will start to go. Oh no just the one. My pager went off before I got back to the shop, oh they said you left with the truck still leaking. I said, uh no. I told em, they declined, fuck it I’m out. But don’t you know they lied and said I never told them that ? BS just all a part of it. That and mgmt that want you to bill hours no matter what. Portal to portal, so as soon as I jump in my van they are getting billed. I had so many people tell me oh we aren’t paying that, I’d say here’s the number to office, have a great one. It’s not for thin skinned people I’ll tell ya that. Most of us were ex military, coincidence, not likely lol.
❤👏
Shoulda welded it shut
Sometimes you gotta know when to walk away & not even get involved with something or someone like that. I have a not-so-nice reputation around here locally among the dead-beats like you describe. But those who listen to my diagnosis & follow what i say treat me like a saint. Their stuff runs reliably as a result. I'm all for saving a buck but not when it's a basket case that's gonna turn into a quagmire.
Down with dead-beats!
@@acemobile9806 Unfortunately, it all boils down to ignorant and broke customers who are trying to get by.
We used to call them "motor mites". Little mites that would eat holes in the liners.
One mechanic showed you can check the amt. of Electrolysis using a multi meter, set on milli-volts.
The action of the electrolysis creates a voltage, and over a certain amt. it needs to be changed. Scotty Kilmer has a vid on that. Quick and easy check.
That’s crazy I’ve heard this can happen but never seen it until now
I know that many of the folks here have big trucks or maybe generating equipment, but I have a 2004 Motorhome with a C7. I bought it used with 24,000 miles on it 3 years ago. Being in the RV business (service manager) myself I cannot reiterate how important the coolant is in a diesel. Josh has again hit it out of the park (baseball reference). During the very first trip we took in the RV there were coolant issues. First the surge tank split (was made out of a poly material) and had to be replaced. Then I noticed on the return trip that the engine seemed to run a bit warmer than normal. So I took it to a diesel service center and had the coolant drained, including the block, and fully flushed with fresh clean water. Then added the proper antifreeze mixture. Additionally I found that the radiator was partially blocked at the bottom so had that power washed clean as well. Now with proper rpm and torque management I can maintain the coolant temperatures. Most importantly during every oil change, which for me is once a year and after about 3000 miles, the coolant is checked and analyzed for the proper additive concentrations. So very important to do. Again thank you Josh for showing us the damage that can be done by coolant.
Thank you for the very detailed and well written comment, as always.
You are the king my friend.
This can happen to any Diesel engine/cavitation. It’s mostly a big issue with the 7.3 idi’s that people often overlook that’s very important.
not sure what I appreciate more, learning about the mechanics of engines or the top quality investigations into problems? I work in a refinery, cavitation is a common thing we have here on most of our process equipment. The metallurgical findings dealing with equipment failures are fascinating. Possessing Sherlock Holmes type mentality and persistence is such a high quality skill to have. Keep up the good work Ape man.
Thank you sir.
@@AdeptApe why do you call yourself an ape?
@@Mark_Tschetter Evolution.
Had a big cam 400 towed in today, i remembered hearing of this and i skipped pulling the heads went straight to pulling the pan pressurized the cooling system and boom 💥 saw a steady stream of water coming through liner on cylinder 1. The truck is an old international paystar with butterfly hood, that is why i didn't want to pull heads first.
This is why I never run anything on less than 70% antifreeze. There is no case for even 50/50. Even in summer in Texas you will never overheat with 70/30 (antifreeze/water).
My guess would be that oil cooler bolt is probably in a decent place when the engine is out of the frame. Engineered for ease of assembly on the production line, serviceability not so much.
The old adage of pay it now or pay it later comes to mind when being cheap on servicing your engine. This is not Brick and Scrap iron engine and can cost you $30,000 or more to fix correctly.
Awsome! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience with us. As a diesel tech myself, I love watching all your videos and seeing what kind of stuff you run into. Keep it up!
really appreciate you’re videos they back up preventative maintenance using the proper materials for that engine. i’ve never run into this problem but you have to live and learn. thx again
Pictures worth so much more than words. Thanks.
I once was repairing a very old locomotive with an inline 6 cylinder diesel. The cylinder I pulled out was about 5/8 of an inch and the cavitation was about 1/2 inch deep. Down both sides. I don't know how much longer that engine lasted. Locomotives just run water for coolant with boron added for rust protection. If we have to shut them down in the winter they are drained.
I had a Volvo engine in a L90B loader that had compression in the cooling system, it ended being the tip broke off the injector cup. That ended up being an easy fix, well relatively but I can see you have a lot of work ahead of you on this one. Good luck and you produce great videos.
As always liked the content ! Always detailed to everything! Keep up the good work !!
Cooling system treatment & testing every 15,000 miles. The P H needs to be between 3 & 6 & on cylinder liners it's called pining.
For those who don't know. Cavitation erosion is not electrolysis
When taking off an old manifold, loosen each bolt but then do it back up, repeat until all have been done, then take all the bolts out.
If you take all the bolts out bar one, it can be a bugger to get out.
Reading this made me remember my dad telling me the same thing about 30 years ago (I was about 10). Wow, that's a trip.
Always learning some thing new and awesome when watching your videos 👍
As always, great detail!
Case IH iron gard penetrating oil is a good penetrating oil. We even had a representative from another oil company demonstrating their oils and he even admitted the Case iron gard was better than what they have.
Great vid. Love your precise diagnostics an humorous comments! Keep ‘em coming.
Thank you, I'm trying to add a little bit of humor to my videos.
It's works really well :). You keep us learning and laughing at the same time ! What a teacher you are :)
Good job and good eye too. The downside to finding out these problems, it doesn't always make the customer happy, so it's almost like Catch-22 I suppose. Thanks for sharing your findings. 👍
👍
Awesome vid. I been working on trucks for year and half though came from 12 years of cars. It's crazy how more sensitive the trucks are than cars
visual inspection wins again . thank you sir for sharing.
Good catch, excellent mechanic work.
Perfect! Thank you very much for posting this video!
Great video as always.:)
The best impact that works you paid for and doesnt give up whether it be blue red or bleeding cash off the truck
You really show and explain the problem so well. Another great video 👍🏽 Thanks 🇺🇸
For a second I thought the Destruction of the Week was going to be you wrecking your back trying to get that liner out, lol
Talked about it but to actually see it close up was amazing thanks Josh 🇦🇺👍
Going to try and do more videos like this. Just bought a big light assembly today so the shop videos look a little better.
The way you said *certain places* I totally feel that 😂
Oh hell that’s an old green ant freeze electrolysis problem that used to be what happen when you didn’t keep up with the sca in the old green anti freeze
Are you sure? I am VERY interested in the specific cause and cost-effective means of prevention. What are the best protective coolant additives now to use instead of changing coolant? stores don't seem to carry coolant corrosion inhibitor anymore, though ebay still has the old school stuff. Can any additive inhibit cavitation?
@@alan6832 RMI 25 works wonders.
@@alan6832 u can get the stuff at advance for like $10 and it works great
Top notch information sir. Keep it up.
Yes, I bet the owner thought he'd save some money, and not change the coolant filter, as should be done.
Best wishes all.
Hate to think...but many mechanics would have have just put a head gasket on thinking that was all there was to it..Your good observation definitely paid off.
Your content is getting better.
Thank you, I've been trying to step it up.
Excellent information as always thank you!
Great videos, I've used a few of them for shop manuals.
honestly great channel and great diesel expert , always useful videos , god bless you Mr. Josh
Thank you sir.
I recommend always taking the difficult hard to reach bolts out FIRST. so as to be able to hand loosen it after you break bolt or screw loose, then getting tools out the ways. Now the parts won't be hanging making finger loosening almost impossible.
Great video!!! Thank you!👍
Awesome info !!!
They sell an electrolysis additive for those brands that do have that problem.
Awesome brotha 👍 great video 📹 interesting stuff.
That coolant looked like it had never been changed.
Exactly. Someone did not do proper scheduled maintenance
@@archiedentone5950 Looked like he topped if off with pure water .. right on schedule for 30 years !
This is prolly from exhaust gases we got it going on with a John Deere engine and u can fill it with antifreeze and water and crank it and in 2 or 3 minutes it looks worse than that
Great info thanks
I always put in additives on my new trucks keep coolant changed as recommended 👌
Recently I just pulled some liners for the first time out of my semi truck, owner operator.
When you did the Arnold Schwarzenegger part I laughed so hard my back cracked sitting at the dinner table.
Just finished torquing the heads down on my Cummins big Cam so yea my back felt it.
The C13 ones aren't too bad although putting them back in gets sketchy with trying to not hit the seal it drop the rod onto the crankshaft. The C15 ones are way heavier, never done the Cummins packs, but I'm sure they aren't helium filled.
Well presented subject. Thank you
I learned about this back with the 7.3L power strokes
Great video!
Thank you
Awesome . Thanks again
Great video.Never think that coolant can do this......Interesting.
Snap-On has the only air ratchet I'm willing to use- I can't remember what they call it, but it binds itself if it starts to try and eat your hand. Every other one I've had smashes the bejeezus out of your hand.
I may have to look into that hammer-head again though. IR makes good stuff (my 3/8 TiMax is going on 11 years old, near daily use)
Who would have thought..... You are mechanic not a guessing part changer.
Yep been there had a 88 T600 3406B blown head gasket broken head bolt pull #6 .1000 away from going threw the liner. Hard lesson on proper PH in the coollent. First inframe.
A regulated overpressure (positive pressure) will help prevent the forming of caviation or atleast slow it down.
So its vital that the cooling system is able to pressurize in adition to having the right coolant.
Its from electrlousis, metal in the coolant acts like a electric motor causes actual electric spark to travel through the liner
You sir have clearly not learnt the difference between electrolysis and cavitation corrosion erosion. This is cavitation corrosion, i have seen it many times on engines rebuilds I have done.
Just had to chuckle at you getting that one bolt out. Been there many times myself
Another great video thanks.
Thank you for the comments.
Good find
Due to the angle of the connecting rod, the piston gets pushed into the side of the cylinder during the power and compression stroke -- this is called side thrust. You can see this by examining cylinder wear, the side taking the major side thrust (power stroke) usually wears faster and shows up as glazing in the middle of the cylinder on that side. This side thrust causes the liner to oscillate back and forth microscopically. As the liner is moving away, it creates a zone of low pressure in the coolant and bubbles of air start to form. These bubbles implode as the pressure increase again caused by the liner moving back to the original spot. The implosion force is measured in tons per square inch (very powerful), and if it happens close enough to the liner wall it can break off a bit of the steel.
Coolant is extremely important because chemicals in the coolant forms a protective layer on surfaces it touches. Cavitation hopefully damages this protective layer. The protective layer is regenerated by draining old coolant and putting in fresh coolant. This is why you need to change coolant every so often, and you should never run straight water in diesel engine (aside from obvious freeze protection).
Good job,,,👍👍
Nice find
have writ about that many times...Coolant cavitation is a serious problem ever since wet sleeve engines debuted with 3306, 3406, 407, back in earlier nineties...Always run coolant conditioner determined by a coolant test kit...Coolant condition is ever bit as important to engine life as engine oil...not complicated at all, antifreeze doesn't wear out, conditioner wears out...We quit changing antifreeze 35 years ago, we tested with a Caterpillar coolant test kit and added purple colored Naacool coolant conditioner, Caterpillar dealer sold at the time...When we needed to change coolant heater in an engine the inside of the block was just as clean as the outside...We had conditioner problem one time with low liners in an old D7 17A 18692 engine...So, we learned out lesson, the mechanics at my local dealer told me about my mistake and how to remedy in the future...So we began testing/replacing coolant conditioner in other engines as well...Even the gas engines/pickups cars etc...Neighbors had changed their pickups over to water only coolant during the hot summer that year, later had freeze plugs rusting out...What a job to change those out!
So when we needed to change over to water, in order for engine to run cooler during a hot summer, we added Naacool according to the test kit...We never lost a freeze plug except for once in a 68 Plymouth Sport Fury...I changed the one freeze plug that leaked, and ran conditioner after that=no more trouble...I can't prove it but strong believe it helped water pumps last longer as well...We never let coolant turn brown any more, really haven't had a problem with turning brown after using the test kit and conditioner as needed..
812 385 9036 if want to discuss further, email is rockndirt@sit-co.net..
Am on a farm North of Evansville, Indiana..
There are some wrong advice given on this forum from additions below, I didn't read the original post past the beginning of how to take an engine apart so I can't speak for that...I know water cools better than water-antifreeze when ambient temperature is high and engine is loaded almost continuous...We never had heating problem with the D7, or D6D, but the 977L had to be completely clean radiator core and water for coolant during heat of the summer...I used coolant conditioner with the distilled water to prevent engine damage, and changed back and forth with antifreeze mixture/conditioner and distilled water/conditioner in May and last week of September...I kept each change in plastic five gallon buckets...Was out only the expense of distilled water and coolant conditioner to keep the 3306 in the 977L running below 190 degrees F...977 radiator is tall and narrow to make room for the loader arms, where the 6 and 7 have square radiators that cool much better...The fan is able to cover more of the radiator, we were able to run antifreeze year around in those tractors...Neighbors had trouble with cavitation in their IH engines early on, we didn't have that problem as we learned out lesson with the low liners of the D7 early on...We had Cat, Case, IH, Mack, Cummins, as well as the gas engines so we bought many quart bottles of Naacool from Caterpillar dealer in Evansville..
Agree had it happen to a 92 F350 with a 7.3....ended up leaking into the cylinder and hydro locked thought it was a head or head gaskets so xhanged both happened again engine was history
Very good and easy explanation Mr Ape
I remember when I first encounter cavitation issues on a diesel engine
Back 15 years ago when we start to have new coolant fluids on market n first ting I tougth was we or at least me working with diesel since 1980 never see this issue Wyle on green coolant
What's tougths about this
In the old days theirs a product I even use in my cars cooling system called Pencool 3000 . Way back when it went by the name Nacool 3000 . It was designed to prevent Cummins Worms in wet sleeve engines. I’ve actually seen bigger holes then that in sleeves. The problem arises in the firing impulses in the cylinders and harmonics that create theses shockwaves then the water boils into steam that causes the holes. Pencool was developed to stop this and corrosion in the cooling system,,especially on large Diesel engines cooling systems where water is only used and No Antifreeze is added because we are talking 500 gallons or more capacity systems. Even in these systems on tugboats that I worked on it wasn’t uncommon to pump in one or two 55 gallon drums of Pencool 3000 to get the right mix ratio. I can remember pulling a water jacket cover off of a Caterpillar engine that has been in continuous service for years since the last overhaul and the water jackets where perfectly gray cast iron. So I’ve used Pencool 3000 in all my engines for over 4 decades now and in engines with antifreeze it helps stabilize the antifreeze. In my personal cars I get at least 5 to 10 degrees of hot air out of my cars heater in the winter time with Pencool 3000 .
You can still see the cross hatching... and the liners rot from the outside in. Clean coolant is a must!
I also remember on cat c15 n 3406b not in cyl walls but in engine block cav issues somobody on a cat dealer to recommended filled with epoxy n I did
Even when I doubt would last
It did work specially on areas near cyl walls
I worked for Ohio Machinery/Ohio CAT as field service tech and remember a chemical CAT required for use in engines that had coolant in the oil. After the repair is made. It prevented the bearings from being damaged down the road due to a chemical reaction with the glycol and tin/lead bearing construction. I can not find the name of it.
When i bought my diesel ford 7.3 idi I seen the coolant was nice and green but I knew about the cavitation problems they can have I never checked the coolant with a test strip to see how good or bad the additives were i added a bottle of it in to be in the safe side but i wonder if i should buy some test strips and check it only thing i seen in the coolant was a couple of chunks of orange rtv from a bad radiator cap which i put a new one on. I don't normally drive it in the winter so it sits pretty much those 3 months till its nice again.
Correct. Cavitation is 1 most over looked problem we face. Not only engines but Hyd systems too. It got fluid you got chance of Cavitation. I always say see a mechanic know it all run the other way.
My boss has had coolant leaks for the last 8 months, he has been filling his 60 series Detroit with straight water for that whole time.
He finally got me to fix the leaks, I flushed, changed the coolant and the filter. - It came out that same brownish, orangey color, of course the filter was tightened on so hard the seal looked like a bent in crush washer and the filter was rusted around the top.
I hope he hasn't killed the thing, that's a good motor to feed garbage to.
How many hours or miles re on his 60 series? I have one with 3100hrs and have always wondered how long it takes for liner pitting to be a real risk. I do t have good records of perilous coolant change intervals.
The 7.3 international's are notorious for this. Not the powerstroke but the older 7.3.
Funny as well as educational
I have tried them all and pb blaster is definitely the best penetrating oil. I love the zep brake cleaner, I do not know why it works so much better then any other one I have tried.
I hate air ratchets, too slow and never has enough power to break bolts loose.
So do you expect other liners to be damaged as well? Awesome to see a good mechanic be a great forensic detective
I expect them to have similar pitting, but not sure until I can remove the other liners.
Had this happen to a 7.3 IDI engine in a Ford pickup. Unfortunately that engine is not sleeved and I had to have it bored and dry sleeved. I'm sure the previous owners didn't run the proper SCAs!
Great content, keep good work. Can you link the liner puller? Sure would be helpful to pull the liner out of my 5 cylinder in my diesel Jeep without tearing apart all engine. Regards
Yep. Keep that red ELC HOAT/OAT maintenance up. 👍🏻
Remove oil pan, pressurize radiator and look for leaks around liner. Have somebody slowly rotate because the piston and ring could be covering up holes from cavitation.
Josh...uda man !!!!
I had a Dodge Caravan with a blown head gasket. I got it from a friend. If you leave coolant in the cylinder for too long, the antifreeze can eat into the cylinder. I was planning on replacing the head gasket and replace it till I found the groove where the antifreeze destroyed the cylinder. I ended up replacing the engine. I have seen snowmobile engines where the nicklecille coating has been boiled off and blistered by antifreeze. If you have a blown head gasket on any engine, that antifreeze will destroy the engine in short order.
the older Detroit 2 stokers were really known for this, you have to run the right coolant and keep it up-to date, shit i even run it in my 7.3 Powerstroke yes i know it is over kill but at 275k i must be doing things right.
7.3 fords had problems with coolant eating the block
@@cooperparts the old 7.3 yes but that got fixed so when the Powerstroke came along things were good. but it still has selves around the injectors, and TBH my truck runs a good 10f cooler with purple in it.
Watching this video has me thinking.. my dad's C13 started pushing coolant through the turbos this past summer. We never did take the engine apart to verify, but I'm wondering if something like this happened with the liners to cause that. We ended up just putting a 6NZ in the truck instead of overhauling the C13. I believe that C13 had 1.2 million miles on it. His coolant, however, was still in great shape, unlike the motor in this video.
If you read this, I have a question! Are air compressors interchangeable between the C13 and a C-12? My air compressor is showing signs of letting oil slip past the piston rings, and the compressor on that C13 is very new.. we are looking to just use that one if we can instead of dropping a bunch of money on a new one.
Can you do a video on how to check our tire alignment at home and what we can do to adjust accordingly?
I have a 6nz . Recently I found a good deal on rotella 15 w 40 . Since it is getting hard to find . I bought 5 - 5 gal. Buckets . When I changed my oil I noticed that It was dingy looking like it had something it . I had some that I had bought somewhere else and it was clear and clean .I noticed these buckets had stick on labels and the one that was cleaner oil the bucket label was printed right on the bucket . What do you . think