If you came into this video hoping I would break out a protractor and measure hip angles to see if they should or should not have been DQd...I'm sorry to disappoint. The reality here is that many, many more swimmers than just Alex and Kaylee should have likely been called for this if we're really going to apply this rule this aggressiviely. We can sit at home and study blurry screenshots all day long, but the bottom line is that fans need to be looped into this stuff and we might be looking a rule change right in the face. What do y'all think?
Not sure if this is a good idea but how come they cant just have a normal flip turn for back to breast? The rule doesnt make much sense to me Edit: Okay i guess it makes sense that they want a swimmer to finish on their back after the backstroke section, so it follows the correct rules for all strokes. (So it is an actual true IM)
@@lajohnson1lyit's not backstroke though. It's effectively 4 separate races, swum under the rules of that stroke. So the back to breast means that you have to finish the backstroke section ON THE BACK
@@ianhowes545 But not all backstroke is on the back. The swimmer turns over completely, 180°, and does a freestyle stroke going into the flip. I think the IM turn could be made consistent with that. Or the backstroke turn should return to the previous swivel done on the back, to be consistent with your point. That's easy to judge from the deck.
Thanks so much, Kyle! You're doing great, and you're greatly appreciated =) Completely agree that we need on-air analysis and simultaneous replays like every other freakin' sport. One thing about the timezones: West coast is waking up to watch at 4am, Alaska 3am, and Hawaii is staying up to watch from 1am-3am. Ooof. But at least we get it live and not on a three-hour tape delay as we have in the past 😬
Excellent video as always, Kyle! Thanks for bringing up conversations like this in the community. A few thoughts on my end: 1. I think that the use of video initiation to call DQs will continue to result in more inconsistent calls. If I remember correctly, it used to the be the case where the stroke and turn official would initiate the call, and then either: a. Deck Referee would accept/reject the call and then DQ the swimmer OR b. the Deck Referee would place the swim under review and video would be used to confirm or reject the DQ. At some meets, video can ONLY be used during the appeals process if a swimmer lodges a protest against their DQ. I think that my biggest qualm with the use of video to *initiate* a DQ is that the "benefit of the doubt" that is often given to swimmers, is either nonexistent or greatly diminished. Officials must call what they see and see what they call. If they are not sure about a particular call, the benefit of the doubt MUST go to the swimmer, no exception. The use of video to initiate the call and then proceeding to DQ the swimmer based on the video alone relies on the assumption that the call that's been initiated by the video is the CORRECT one. In other words, you are using the same piece of evidence (the video recording) to confirm the DQ of swimmer rather than viewing it from a different perspective or rather than having a call made by an official on deck, then using video evidence to confirm or reject the call. The older method provides two methods of confirmation: first that an official saw it, then the video confirmed. The newer method makes the video a sufficient method of DQing a swimmer and I feel like there's a big tension here. 2. Here's where the tension lies: VAR technology is supposed to make us feel that the DQ is more definite, accurate, and based on clear cut evidence. But this all falls apart when it's inconsistently applied to swimmers, like this case. It's pretty clear that from both pictures, neither swimmer has touched the wall yet while finishing the backstroke leg. It's also clear that Alex Walsh is past vertical towards the breast on her finish. For those who don't know, officials use the positioning of the hip and the shoulder to determine whether a swimmer is past vertical on the breast or on the back. On the other hand, Kaylee McKeown has more of an case she could make and from the picture, I feel like the benefit of the doubt should go to McKeown. This illustrates my point above entirely. From what I understand, the video initiated the DQ and the DQ was upheld using the video. Using the older method, the turn judge would have likely decided to give the benefit of the doubt to the swimmer. Walsh's turn judge may have decided to give her the benefit of the doubt as well, but then arguably, the solution here is to get a better turn judge, not then use the video to initiate a separate call to DQ Walsh. 3. Obviously the solutions here are few and far in between. More consistency and practice using the video technology would be a start, but I also feel like taking more time between swims to review every single swim would be important. We don't need to announce qualifiers to Semis, qualifiers from Semis to Finals, or placements right away. Create a group of a few Chief Judges or stroke and turn video judges and task them to review each swim, with a 15 - 30 minute deadline after each event is over. So instead of making results official right away, or immediately after the swim, make it the norm that results and qualifiers will be posted once all swims have been processed, like at any Age Group Meet. 4. As per the Rule change, I feel like this is unlikely. FINA and USA-S are pretty adamant that you need to finish the leg of an IM using the rules prescribed in that event, so a swimmer swimming backstroke has to finish on their back (though notable here that the side is OK). Honestly, this call is the *hardest* to get right and I feel like the swimmer has to get the benefit of the doubt here. 5. As for getting the audience into looking at videos on the big screen, I feel a little conflicted about this one. Part of me wants to make sure that officials aren't influenced by the public at a meet when making a call. After all, the most important thing is that they get the DQ correct. At the same time, I think that it would be a super helpful resource to coaches, swimmers, officials, and the public as a whole to provide pictures or video resources of what is/is not disqualifiable. So maybe showing a replay after a DQ has been confirmed and pointing out where and when the swimmer made the infraction would be something FINA could consider. Sorry that this is so long, but here's my big jumble of thoughts. As always, thanks for posting the video! Can't wait for more to come as Worlds continues!
Totally correct Kyle .. Alex Walsh was so much further over than Kaylee .. how could that not have been a DQ is beyond me ?? .. There needs to be more consistency in the reviews and decisions ..
I think the reason they don’t put reviews on the screen is that reviews happen basically every third heat and most result in no DQs, meaning no action. It becomes more engaging to talk about the contenders of the previous events or the next event instead of doing a live replay so often.
I watched this live and didn't have a problem with this call itself. I don't know the rules well enough to say. But the very next heat had a turn that, to my eye at least, _looked_ pretty much the same as the one that got McKeown DQ'd. That was the big problem I had with it that I was hoping this video would address. Why were all the swimmers in the next heat who seemed to turn an awful lot before touching not also penalised? It's pretty common in competitive sports (at least the big spectator ones like football-for whatever definition one means by "football") for the refs to be told something like "hey, this round we want you to concentrate really hard in enforcing this particular rule. Really crack down on violations", and for them to go back to being fairly lenient on the rule after that round is over. It felt like that was what happened here. Not a deliberate scheme to manipulate the outcome, but a poorly-thought-out and inconsistent effort to crack down on a particular rule as a way to say "hey, look, we do enforce this rule when it's broken". And not even consistent on that rule for the same round of the same race, but only one individual heat.
Everything about this argument is totally and completely valid. As both a fan and participant in the sport of swimming the lack of video reviews is annoying. Some might suggest that video reviews are a "waste time" but we all know in other sports (football being the big one) that video reviews are always done after every single play is completed. If it's to keep with the program and timeline, an easy fix would to add time for reviews after races if needed or factor it into breaks in between events. Just my take
It's a rule that is getting broken because swimmers are pushing the boundaries of what can be done within the rules. There was never an issue when everyone did the touch on their back, then either back flipped or just swivelled their legs around in a tuck position. Now the swimmer puts themself in a position where they are risking a DQ every time. A little bit of turbulence, or difference in effort or control, and it all goes wrong. If they change the rule to allow swimmers to rotate more, swimmers will find other ways to push the boundaries of what can be done. Tighten the rules to go back to the old style turns, and their race times might be slightly slower. I prefer them to tighten the rules in this case, maybe by saying a front flip isn't allowed during the turn - so back flip or ordinary turn only.
As a swim teacher and ex-swimmer I was watching this semi and then subsequent final. To see Kaylee get disqualified it was disappointing but I understood thinking that the ref at the turn must of seen something then referred it to the video, but to then find out that the turn ref didn’t have anything to do with it and it was initiated with the video, I then thought ok great they must of checked EVERY single other swimmer and only 1 other swimmer did the incorrect turn. But to then see replay after replay of at least 1 other swimmer do the same thing in the same semi then again in the final (and get away with it) I was left with more questions than ever. All the athletes, coaches and viewers want is CONSISTENCY and that turn is one that they are not going to get it. I was willing to ignore the inconsistencies with a ref but video that is where inconsistencies should go to die. If your going to use video then u need to look at every single turn on every single swimmer and it needs to be public. People need to see what they see.
The rules prompting the need for a crossover turn planted the seed for this problem years ago. This has ALWAYS been and underlying problem with the IM rules that we are now forced to notice. They should either allow an actual flip turn or enforce no turning over at all. The current margin for error is way too small.
There's no margin for error, other than the Mark 1 human eyeball. The rules are there to be enforced. Swimmers and coaches try and find ways to exploit the rules as best they can, and as officials we make sure that errors and infractions are reported. If you don't have officials, you don't have competitions. Your choice
I remember seeing people do this turn when it was first allowed and then trying to learn it with coaches. The key was to turn your head while doing a flip turn so it appears as though you're on your back even though you're not. But there's no way to do it while maintaining the spirit of the rule. It's a stupid rule. Either don't allow a flip or allow a flip turn. Keep it simple.
The primary purpose of an on-deck official is to provide a level playing field for all swimmers by being fair. It would not be fair to all of the other swimmers in the water if you let an infraction go unreported.
Spot on. As a referee I brief that at every meet, for some swimmers it's their Olympics. And we should judge all swimmers by the same standard. If there's an infraction that you're 100% certain occurred, report it to the referee If you THINK you saw something, I'm not interested. The officials reporting these infractions have passed their 100% certainty test
I really don't think it IS that complicated...are you at least 90-99% sure the swimmer tipped over vert? Flag it and have it reviewed. If you're 100% sure, DQ them. Anything else, swimmer gets benefit of the doubt. Any official that couldn't be 100% certain of Walsh being on her front simply shouldn't be officiating at World Champs....
I am 200 IM swimmer and I agree I think the rule should be edited. There is so many times I get DQ on the back to breast for me being not 100% on my side. I think it is too hard to tell even at the high level(in some cases).
I disagree. Do you actually understand the IM rules? It's effectively 4 individual races, with each section swum in accordance with the rules of that stroke. So you need to swim 1/ of the race as backstroke - and finishing off the back at the end of the backstroke means you've not swum 1/4 of the race on your back...
Here's a tip: if you're looking at the bottom of the pool, your shoulders are probably past vertical. It's a good rule. DQ those that try to challenge it.
It's so frustrating that swimming could be much bigger than it is but apparently FINA I mean World Aquatics can't seem to get anyone under the age of 60 to do marketing.
The turn needs to change. If this many are doing it, there's a problem. And, just watching, it seems incredibly awkward at best and likely shoulder displacing too.
I think I’m with ya on this. If a judge can’t figure out how to call it accurately and consistency then I think they rule is broken. Bias included from having a messed up shoulder.
The coaches would have been aware of the tightening of these rules, and should have read the riot act to their swimmers abt it. I wonder if there will b a recall of the results? Is it a done deal now? The crossover turn needs to b swept into the dustbin of history…as in the way of the dinosaurs 🦖
As a turn judge I've DQed a crossover turn similar to Alex's. Saw the shoulders go past the vertical looked down and the fingers were just short of the wall. Kaylee's wasn't even close. It's not that the rules have changed or have been tightened. This has always been illegal. From an Aussie Newspaper: According to new World Aquatics regulations, swimmers must still be on their back when touching the wall, however McKeown had already started rotating. "This is because of the new technicality that has come in," Aussie legend Ian Thorpe said in commentary for Channel 9. " What is Ian Thorpe talking about. There was no change in this year's revised rules. This goes back 30 years to 1992 when they introduced the new style of backstroke tumble turn. But you always had to complete the IM backstroke leg on the back.
This turn is the latest fad taught by coaches. Soon enough they will realise that it is too dangerous (from a DQ standpoint) and it will go out of fashion No need for a rule change
Appreciate the insight. But I think that in regards to swim, DQs at a pro-level meet should happen less and less, and the rules should be more lenient.
Totally disagree. Elite swimmers should be the best swimmers swimming within the rules, not the best at breaking them. Rules are there, and quite clear. Some of these infractions (off back at end of backstroke leg in IM) I'd be appalled to see in a low level licenced meet. Why should elite swimmers not have to follow the rules of swimming? What message does that send to all those hopefuls out there? WA changes the rules far too often imho to accommodate what swimmers are doing rather than following the rules. They're there for ALL to follow.
@@ianhowes545 A lot of the DQ calls are questionable at best. But I feel like the rules should accommodate the fastest swimmers; a meet that DQs both McKeown and Walsh in the 200 IM, even though they were quite clearly 2/3 fastest swimmers in the event, would not necessarily be good for the sport. Fast swimmers are what drive up the marketability of the sport, and rules need to be more lenient to support the growth and development of these swimmers. There is no need to DQ the best of the best.
I think that if you’re going to strictly enforce this you need a way to determine if the rules are being broken that isn’t just looking at blurry videos. The best way would be to have swimmers wear something measuring their position and angle in the pool. This way there no controversy. Similar to soccer with the stuff they use to determine offsides. So if someone got DQd for a back to breast turn officials can look over the data and see he/she turned 100 degrees going into the wall at this time in their race, that’s so many over the allowed amount, DQ.
Tell you what then. Well take the human factor out altogether shall we? Officials at this level are, as a minimum, referees qualified by their own national governing bodies. Then trained further to become WA officials The level of experience of officials at World champs/Olympics etc is phenomenal. Experience gives us the know how to make these calls. The WA rules are plain for all to see, and enforced consistently, and the potential for human error is reduced by the use of officials with vast experience. Mistakes do occasionally happen, but in my experience, swimming has far less errors by officials than other sports.
Thank you. A judge is a thankless job. I've been verbally harassed and screamed at for just calling it. Parents don't understand that is my call at our small galas that's going to prevent this type of situation. ua-cam.com/video/f0sqqwb9nYw/v-deo.html This is the Sydney Open Meet earlier this year. Kaylee should have been DQed then. Watch the video, they had NO TURN JUDGES. Shocking for a meet of that level.
I've called "elbows out of water" to a ref in the past and been told "don't be stupid they're a national swimmer" Errors like this prove even the best make mistakes. As a ref now (was a British Swimming J2 at the time) I've taken this lesson on board and asked the correct questions as to the veracity of the report and if satisfied have accepted - even for national champions who've made errors
@@ianhowes545 I thought you were quoting me! I called elbows out the water behind the back 3 weeks ago and the DQ was challenged because again they were a national swimmer. So this happens everywhere.
If a swimmer doesn't want to get disqualified, err on the side of actually staying on their back. Period. Turn your hat around or take it off. It looks stupid backwards.
It was kaylee mckeown not emma
Lol. Yep the irony.
I would like to announce my formal retirement from saying names for the rest of my life...
LMAOOOO
I assume all recaps going forward will be shared as, 'a person' did this and 'some other person' did that.
the "nailed it" after getting saying "emma" instead of "kaylee" had me dyinnnngggggg 🤣
If you came into this video hoping I would break out a protractor and measure hip angles to see if they should or should not have been DQd...I'm sorry to disappoint.
The reality here is that many, many more swimmers than just Alex and Kaylee should have likely been called for this if we're really going to apply this rule this aggressiviely. We can sit at home and study blurry screenshots all day long, but the bottom line is that fans need to be looped into this stuff and we might be looking a rule change right in the face.
What do y'all think?
Not sure if this is a good idea but how come they cant just have a normal flip turn for back to breast? The rule doesnt make much sense to me
Edit: Okay i guess it makes sense that they want a swimmer to finish on their back after the backstroke section, so it follows the correct rules for all strokes. (So it is an actual true IM)
But backstrokers can turn to their fronts completely to begin their turn, along with not having to touch the wall with their hands.⁰
@@_R_R_R
And the reason is that 1/4 of the race needs to be swum ON THE BACK
@@lajohnson1lyit's not backstroke though.
It's effectively 4 separate races, swum under the rules of that stroke.
So the back to breast means that you have to finish the backstroke section ON THE BACK
@@ianhowes545 But not all backstroke is on the back. The swimmer turns over completely, 180°, and does a freestyle stroke going into the flip. I think the IM turn could be made consistent with that. Or the backstroke turn should return to the previous swivel done on the back, to be consistent with your point. That's easy to judge from the deck.
The most professional and unbiased reaction out there!
Thanks so much, Kyle! You're doing great, and you're greatly appreciated =) Completely agree that we need on-air analysis and simultaneous replays like every other freakin' sport. One thing about the timezones: West coast is waking up to watch at 4am, Alaska 3am, and Hawaii is staying up to watch from 1am-3am. Ooof. But at least we get it live and not on a three-hour tape delay as we have in the past 😬
Excellent video as always, Kyle! Thanks for bringing up conversations like this in the community. A few thoughts on my end:
1. I think that the use of video initiation to call DQs will continue to result in more inconsistent calls. If I remember correctly, it used to the be the case where the stroke and turn official would initiate the call, and then either: a. Deck Referee would accept/reject the call and then DQ the swimmer OR b. the Deck Referee would place the swim under review and video would be used to confirm or reject the DQ. At some meets, video can ONLY be used during the appeals process if a swimmer lodges a protest against their DQ. I think that my biggest qualm with the use of video to *initiate* a DQ is that the "benefit of the doubt" that is often given to swimmers, is either nonexistent or greatly diminished. Officials must call what they see and see what they call. If they are not sure about a particular call, the benefit of the doubt MUST go to the swimmer, no exception. The use of video to initiate the call and then proceeding to DQ the swimmer based on the video alone relies on the assumption that the call that's been initiated by the video is the CORRECT one. In other words, you are using the same piece of evidence (the video recording) to confirm the DQ of swimmer rather than viewing it from a different perspective or rather than having a call made by an official on deck, then using video evidence to confirm or reject the call. The older method provides two methods of confirmation: first that an official saw it, then the video confirmed. The newer method makes the video a sufficient method of DQing a swimmer and I feel like there's a big tension here.
2. Here's where the tension lies: VAR technology is supposed to make us feel that the DQ is more definite, accurate, and based on clear cut evidence. But this all falls apart when it's inconsistently applied to swimmers, like this case. It's pretty clear that from both pictures, neither swimmer has touched the wall yet while finishing the backstroke leg. It's also clear that Alex Walsh is past vertical towards the breast on her finish. For those who don't know, officials use the positioning of the hip and the shoulder to determine whether a swimmer is past vertical on the breast or on the back. On the other hand, Kaylee McKeown has more of an case she could make and from the picture, I feel like the benefit of the doubt should go to McKeown. This illustrates my point above entirely. From what I understand, the video initiated the DQ and the DQ was upheld using the video. Using the older method, the turn judge would have likely decided to give the benefit of the doubt to the swimmer. Walsh's turn judge may have decided to give her the benefit of the doubt as well, but then arguably, the solution here is to get a better turn judge, not then use the video to initiate a separate call to DQ Walsh.
3. Obviously the solutions here are few and far in between. More consistency and practice using the video technology would be a start, but I also feel like taking more time between swims to review every single swim would be important. We don't need to announce qualifiers to Semis, qualifiers from Semis to Finals, or placements right away. Create a group of a few Chief Judges or stroke and turn video judges and task them to review each swim, with a 15 - 30 minute deadline after each event is over. So instead of making results official right away, or immediately after the swim, make it the norm that results and qualifiers will be posted once all swims have been processed, like at any Age Group Meet.
4. As per the Rule change, I feel like this is unlikely. FINA and USA-S are pretty adamant that you need to finish the leg of an IM using the rules prescribed in that event, so a swimmer swimming backstroke has to finish on their back (though notable here that the side is OK). Honestly, this call is the *hardest* to get right and I feel like the swimmer has to get the benefit of the doubt here.
5. As for getting the audience into looking at videos on the big screen, I feel a little conflicted about this one. Part of me wants to make sure that officials aren't influenced by the public at a meet when making a call. After all, the most important thing is that they get the DQ correct. At the same time, I think that it would be a super helpful resource to coaches, swimmers, officials, and the public as a whole to provide pictures or video resources of what is/is not disqualifiable. So maybe showing a replay after a DQ has been confirmed and pointing out where and when the swimmer made the infraction would be something FINA could consider.
Sorry that this is so long, but here's my big jumble of thoughts. As always, thanks for posting the video! Can't wait for more to come as Worlds continues!
I just love your videos. Our lifeguard gang watches your videos at work.
Kyle dedicated to bringing us content and I appreciate it 🫡
Totally correct Kyle .. Alex Walsh was so much further over than Kaylee .. how could that not have been a DQ is beyond me ?? .. There needs to be more consistency in the reviews and decisions ..
We need a video on the 3 way tie on the 100 breast, that was crazy to watch live
If the timings were allowed to go to .000 rather than.00 I'm sure it'd have been a different outcome. But the WA rules say .00, so that's the result
I think the reason they don’t put reviews on the screen is that reviews happen basically every third heat and most result in no DQs, meaning no action. It becomes more engaging to talk about the contenders of the previous events or the next event instead of doing a live replay so often.
I watched this live and didn't have a problem with this call itself. I don't know the rules well enough to say. But the very next heat had a turn that, to my eye at least, _looked_ pretty much the same as the one that got McKeown DQ'd. That was the big problem I had with it that I was hoping this video would address. Why were all the swimmers in the next heat who seemed to turn an awful lot before touching not also penalised?
It's pretty common in competitive sports (at least the big spectator ones like football-for whatever definition one means by "football") for the refs to be told something like "hey, this round we want you to concentrate really hard in enforcing this particular rule. Really crack down on violations", and for them to go back to being fairly lenient on the rule after that round is over. It felt like that was what happened here. Not a deliberate scheme to manipulate the outcome, but a poorly-thought-out and inconsistent effort to crack down on a particular rule as a way to say "hey, look, we do enforce this rule when it's broken". And not even consistent on that rule for the same round of the same race, but only one individual heat.
love ur videos u help me staying motivated to swim :)
Backstrokers, rock a moustache and you‘ll go fast. -Kyle Sockwell 😂
17.2% sure it’s been scientifically proven
Great analysis as always!
Everything about this argument is totally and completely valid. As both a fan and participant in the sport of swimming the lack of video reviews is annoying. Some might suggest that video reviews are a "waste time" but we all know in other sports (football being the big one) that video reviews are always done after every single play is completed. If it's to keep with the program and timeline, an easy fix would to add time for reviews after races if needed or factor it into breaks in between events. Just my take
Kyle, you're awesome and I love your content. I definitely missed the Alex Walsh "missed DQ". She got lucky.
I think they should just allow back to breast flipturns.
You can. As long as when you touch you're on your back
Good blog, Kyle; and it’s totally OK for anyone to catch a nap. It’s called a siesta.
It's a rule that is getting broken because swimmers are pushing the boundaries of what can be done within the rules. There was never an issue when everyone did the touch on their back, then either back flipped or just swivelled their legs around in a tuck position. Now the swimmer puts themself in a position where they are risking a DQ every time. A little bit of turbulence, or difference in effort or control, and it all goes wrong.
If they change the rule to allow swimmers to rotate more, swimmers will find other ways to push the boundaries of what can be done. Tighten the rules to go back to the old style turns, and their race times might be slightly slower. I prefer them to tighten the rules in this case, maybe by saying a front flip isn't allowed during the turn - so back flip or ordinary turn only.
Agree 100%
Could you please do a video on the first couple heats at Worlds... I'm seeing some big times come out of heat 1 and 2
During competitions, my coach forces us to nap
i woke up at 4:15 to watch some finals before morning practice 😭🤣
As a swim teacher and ex-swimmer I was watching this semi and then subsequent final. To see Kaylee get disqualified it was disappointing but I understood thinking that the ref at the turn must of seen something then referred it to the video, but to then find out that the turn ref didn’t have anything to do with it and it was initiated with the video, I then thought ok great they must of checked EVERY single other swimmer and only 1 other swimmer did the incorrect turn. But to then see replay after replay of at least 1 other swimmer do the same thing in the same semi then again in the final (and get away with it) I was left with more questions than ever. All the athletes, coaches and viewers want is CONSISTENCY and that turn is one that they are not going to get it. I was willing to ignore the inconsistencies with a ref but video that is where inconsistencies should go to die. If your going to use video then u need to look at every single turn on every single swimmer and it needs to be public. People need to see what they see.
The rules prompting the need for a crossover turn planted the seed for this problem years ago. This has ALWAYS been and underlying problem with the IM rules that we are now forced to notice. They should either allow an actual flip turn or enforce no turning over at all. The current margin for error is way too small.
There's no margin for error, other than the Mark 1 human eyeball.
The rules are there to be enforced. Swimmers and coaches try and find ways to exploit the rules as best they can, and as officials we make sure that errors and infractions are reported.
If you don't have officials, you don't have competitions. Your choice
I remember seeing people do this turn when it was first allowed and then trying to learn it with coaches. The key was to turn your head while doing a flip turn so it appears as though you're on your back even though you're not. But there's no way to do it while maintaining the spirit of the rule. It's a stupid rule. Either don't allow a flip or allow a flip turn. Keep it simple.
The primary purpose of an on-deck official is to provide a level playing field for all swimmers by being fair. It would not be fair to all of the other swimmers in the water if you let an infraction go unreported.
Spot on.
As a referee I brief that at every meet, for some swimmers it's their Olympics. And we should judge all swimmers by the same standard.
If there's an infraction that you're 100% certain occurred, report it to the referee
If you THINK you saw something, I'm not interested.
The officials reporting these infractions have passed their 100% certainty test
I really don't think it IS that complicated...are you at least 90-99% sure the swimmer tipped over vert? Flag it and have it reviewed. If you're 100% sure, DQ them. Anything else, swimmer gets benefit of the doubt. Any official that couldn't be 100% certain of Walsh being on her front simply shouldn't be officiating at World Champs....
I am 200 IM swimmer and I agree I think the rule should be edited. There is so many times I get DQ on the back to breast for me being not 100% on my side. I think it is too hard to tell even at the high level(in some cases).
I disagree. Do you actually understand the IM rules?
It's effectively 4 individual races, with each section swum in accordance with the rules of that stroke.
So you need to swim 1/ of the race as backstroke - and finishing off the back at the end of the backstroke means you've not swum 1/4 of the race on your back...
Here's a tip: if you're looking at the bottom of the pool, your shoulders are probably past vertical.
It's a good rule. DQ those that try to challenge it.
Spot on.
As a licenced referee I hate swimmers complaining that officials get blamed for errors by athletes
It's so frustrating that swimming could be much bigger than it is but apparently FINA I mean World Aquatics can't seem to get anyone under the age of 60 to do marketing.
Hmmm....for you, taking a nap in the middle of the afternoon is cute 😉
I still do open turn in 100IM just because of DQ issues.
The turn needs to change. If this many are doing it, there's a problem. And, just watching, it seems incredibly awkward at best and likely shoulder displacing too.
I think I’m with ya on this. If a judge can’t figure out how to call it accurately and consistency then I think they rule is broken. Bias included from having a messed up shoulder.
The coaches would have been aware of the tightening of these rules, and should have read the riot act to their swimmers abt it. I wonder if there will b a recall of the results? Is it a done deal now? The crossover turn needs to b swept into the dustbin of history…as in the way of the dinosaurs 🦖
As a turn judge I've DQed a crossover turn similar to Alex's. Saw the shoulders go past the vertical looked down and the fingers were just short of the wall. Kaylee's wasn't even close.
It's not that the rules have changed or have been tightened. This has always been illegal.
From an Aussie Newspaper:
According to new World Aquatics regulations, swimmers must still be on their back when touching the wall, however McKeown had already started rotating. "This is because of the new technicality that has come in," Aussie legend Ian Thorpe said in commentary for Channel 9. "
What is Ian Thorpe talking about. There was no change in this year's revised rules. This goes back 30 years to 1992 when they introduced the new style of backstroke tumble turn. But you always had to complete the IM backstroke leg on the back.
No change at all.
Thorpe's just annoyed an Aussie got caught performing an infraction
This turn is the latest fad taught by coaches.
Soon enough they will realise that it is too dangerous (from a DQ standpoint) and it will go out of fashion
No need for a rule change
you should commentate at these meets
Day 2 saying " when are you going to swim at another meet?"
Had to deal with a knee injury which took me out for a bit, starting to get back into it now but might be looking at a SCY meet for the next one.
@@Sockwell never give up, hope seeing u in trials next summer
Common Kyle WWWW
Appreciate the insight. But I think that in regards to swim, DQs at a pro-level meet should happen less and less, and the rules should be more lenient.
Totally disagree.
Elite swimmers should be the best swimmers swimming within the rules, not the best at breaking them.
Rules are there, and quite clear.
Some of these infractions (off back at end of backstroke leg in IM) I'd be appalled to see in a low level licenced meet.
Why should elite swimmers not have to follow the rules of swimming? What message does that send to all those hopefuls out there?
WA changes the rules far too often imho to accommodate what swimmers are doing rather than following the rules. They're there for ALL to follow.
@@ianhowes545 A lot of the DQ calls are questionable at best. But I feel like the rules should accommodate the fastest swimmers; a meet that DQs both McKeown and Walsh in the 200 IM, even though they were quite clearly 2/3 fastest swimmers in the event, would not necessarily be good for the sport. Fast swimmers are what drive up the marketability of the sport, and rules need to be more lenient to support the growth and development of these swimmers. There is no need to DQ the best of the best.
nah cuz i got dqued in the 400 IM for this exact thing legit two days ago 💀
NOT THE 4IM
Leon performs the same turn as these two and they will never take his record away, so might as well change the rule.
I think that if you’re going to strictly enforce this you need a way to determine if the rules are being broken that isn’t just looking at blurry videos. The best way would be to have swimmers wear something measuring their position and angle in the pool. This way there no controversy. Similar to soccer with the stuff they use to determine offsides. So if someone got DQd for a back to breast turn officials can look over the data and see he/she turned 100 degrees going into the wall at this time in their race, that’s so many over the allowed amount, DQ.
Tell you what then.
Well take the human factor out altogether shall we?
Officials at this level are, as a minimum, referees qualified by their own national governing bodies. Then trained further to become WA officials
The level of experience of officials at World champs/Olympics etc is phenomenal. Experience gives us the know how to make these calls.
The WA rules are plain for all to see, and enforced consistently, and the potential for human error is reduced by the use of officials with vast experience. Mistakes do occasionally happen, but in my experience, swimming has far less errors by officials than other sports.
Thank you. A judge is a thankless job. I've been verbally harassed and screamed at for just calling it. Parents don't understand that is my call at our small galas that's going to prevent this type of situation.
ua-cam.com/video/f0sqqwb9nYw/v-deo.html
This is the Sydney Open Meet earlier this year. Kaylee should have been DQed then. Watch the video, they had NO TURN JUDGES. Shocking for a meet of that level.
I've called "elbows out of water" to a ref in the past and been told "don't be stupid they're a national swimmer"
Errors like this prove even the best make mistakes.
As a ref now (was a British Swimming J2 at the time) I've taken this lesson on board and asked the correct questions as to the veracity of the report and if satisfied have accepted - even for national champions who've made errors
@@ianhowes545 I thought you were quoting me! I called elbows out the water behind the back 3 weeks ago and the DQ was challenged because again they were a national swimmer. So this happens everywhere.
@@RaymondBarbour annoying isn't it?
Yo where can I find underwater footage of Qin’s 100 breast?
8:40
A video that’s not 8 minutes…
To be honest, this one could have been 15
If a swimmer doesn't want to get disqualified, err on the side of actually staying on their back. Period. Turn your hat around or take it off. It looks stupid backwards.