Affordable Watches with Some Advaned Horology
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- Опубліковано 6 сер 2024
- The very best and most expensive watches seem to be the only ones with advanced horology addressing the problem of constant force. However, there are some watches that may have some of these advanced features that the watch collector may want to consider.
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Hi Bill, you really do put in the time and effort with your videos....... they are a great credit to you, thank you Bill. 🙏
Hey Tommy, thanks man! I'm just pretentious enough to pretend that it's a lot of work.... in fact, though, it's just a lot of play! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
You definitely keep us educated Bill on things that’s overlooked by a normal watch enthusiast. Thanks and keep up the great work.
My pleasure, Rich! Take care, Bill
Another excellent video Bill. You are truly the horological detective. Be well and stay safe.
Hey Bruce, thanks man! I'm not sure if my horological detective work is modeled more on Sherlock Holmes or Inspector Clouseau ...Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Thank you, Sir. Very informative. I am also a reformed aviator and past AOPA member.
Hey Jeffrey! Aviators never reform ... we're just grounded! I used to own a Cessna Cardinal 177B with a STOL kit. Flew in and out of a lot of dirt, dirt-sand, and god-knows-what fields in Mexico when I flew with two medical groups with clinics in Baja and Sinaloa. We'd fly down to the Sea of Cortez and then south to Guaymas and then on to the clinics in El Fuerte. The Baja fields were all dirt where we went, but always interesting! What'd you fly? Take care and watch your 6...Bill 😉
Hi Bill!
On the subject of pocket watch transformed to wristwatch: have a look at the Russian Molnija Tribute 1984. The pocket watch version was used by the Russian army and earlier back was used in Rolex pocket watch(based on the Cortebert Swiss movement).Have a look at EDC Gunner (e-site) which he talks about it in lengthy details. Relative quality at a low price.
Have a good Easter, be safe
John
Thanks for the tip John! Will check out Gunner, and a Happy Easter to you too! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Most of what I’ve learned about watches & horology I’ve learned from you Bill. Thank You & keep it coming.
Thanks Bart, and learn how to do your own research ... and in no time, you'll be teaching me! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Excellent video, so well researched. Every time I watch one I feel like I’ve walked away with at least one new piece of knowledge. Brilliant stuff, love that you’re sharing the breadth of your experience with anyone that’s looking for information.
Well Wayne, we're all in the hobby to help each other. I get a lot of great information from you guys too! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
*Feedback:* excellent video with really good content, from which we learn. Love some of the context stories that only a person of your experience can impart. The AOPA story with the "droopy wings", RAF, Luftwaffe, and USAF is priceless. Subbed. Be safe all.
Hey Pspicer! Thanks man! Yep back in my flying days, I was an AOPA member and they actually discussed whether to abandon their droopy wings ... members said No! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Excellent video Bill. Considering my watch budget, this opens a new way to search for more affordable watches (more within reach for me) with elements that bring value and interest. This is why you’re my “go to” resource for watches! Have a great day!
Hey Tony! Thanks man! I figure it's a better way to navigate through a collection than seeing what's popular or a movie star buys ... neither of which is much fun nor affordable. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Great information Bill. Thanks, you videos are always interesting .
Hey Colin, thanks man! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Very much enjoyed the video.
Minor issue is lower beat rate and constant force. Watches went to high beat to try to match quartz in
70's.. High beat watches swept time trials. Seiko and GP high beat watches took top palces at trials.
This was same pattern as in early 1900's when fusees were consistently beaten at trials at Teddington by non constant force watches. Issue with these was lubrication and wear at pallet pivots.
Pallet friction issue is largely mitigated by thixotropic lubricants like Mobius 9415 The higher the pressure to lower the viscosity.
Hi Doc, thanks for that information. Hi beat always wins...but why is it the top watchmakers use between 2.5 and 3Hz? I interviewed several a couple of years ago, and here's what they said: ua-cam.com/video/NX9vQRC_hh4/v-deo.html Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Thanks a lot. Great episode. There is some charm in using the toothpick to get to the magic +/- 1 sec. And yes, by charm, I also mean the shouting and screaming of completely overdoing it.
😅 Indeed, Arent, and what fun would we have if we got it right the first time! Those poor souls with the 'don't-touch-me' silicon balances and springs .... might as well watch the paint dry. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
It is a public service to demonstrate as you have in a number of your videos such as this one that interesting European horology can be accessed at affordable price points. I found the Limes piece to be stunning and the double barreled movement in the Christopher Ward diver intrigued me. The family owned Muhle Glashutte is one of those German brands where the quality within is more important than how widely the brand name is recognized.
Hi Howard-to me the Limes is an affordable Breguet Classique...without the silicon, automatic movement and a lower frequency... What's not to like? Take care and be safe, Bill😷
It's always a great pleasure to follow your channel, you learn really interesting things, very good job!
Thank you very much Carlo! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
I learn something new every day! Thank you! 😀
It's your turn to teach me something new Javi! I have every faith you'll find something interesting in horology ... Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci Haha :)
Great review and points as always Bill. Great to see the McGonigle brothers from Athlone Ireland featuring. Keep up the good work.
Hey Paddy, do you know the McGonigle brothers? The name seemed to have disappeared from horology for a while and now he (they?) are back. Massive talent. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Hi Bill
My Datejust has 1575 movment 2.5 Hz I found this out because of you . Happy Easter
Thanks Junior...now that's a surprise, and a good one. The Rolex 1556 movement has a vph of 19,800 ... 2.75Hz. I had no idea that Rolex ever had anything under 4Hz ... sounds like you discovered a great watch in your own collection. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Nice video, thank yu. Happy Easter, stay safe!😷
Hey Break Time, thanks man, and a Happy Easter to you too! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
I have to give Omega credit for taking the leap on the co axial
Yes, Styx, you are right Omega had to invest a lot in their tooling to accommodate the co-axial escapement. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Really a great video Bill. Thank you.
Nice video mate 🍸
Hey Tim, thanks man! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Thanks Bill for the introduction to some more interesting watches. That McGonigle is some amazing watch. From Ireland no less.
Hi Richard. Yes, McGonigle is a talented watchmaker. It seemed that he dropped out of sight, but now he's back and they guy is brimming with talent. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Awesome video Bill, I really like the idea of getting the 90% of the enjoyment for the 10% of the price :D
That Limes looks quite nice as well, and I really like the Mühle-Glashütte AOPA 👍👍
I like that Abdul; "90% of the fun for 10% of the price!" Forget the plans on getting the Swatch-Breguet Classique; I can get the Limes! Of course the Mühle-Glashütte AOPA is a very affordable temptation! Then I'd have my own 'Woodpecker!' regulator. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
What is really cool about Limes and Archimede is that the cases are made by ICKLER GmbH which is one of the most famous and prestigious
Hi Bill, great video as always! I'd love to see a "my biggest regrets/mistakes in watch collecting" video. Something to spread some wisdom to try prevent others doing the same, just an idea. Keep up the great work!
Hey Sakikog ... biggest regrets ... now that would be a long video! Let me think about it. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Hi Bill, great channel excellent content. Keep em coming 👍🏻👌🏻
As long as I'm having fun Ayaz, you've got 'em. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Informative as usual Bill - will have to revisit and view the R.Smith series 2 movement.
Hi Marty, those Roger Smith watches are masterpieces in every way. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Super interesting!
Hey Severin, thanks man! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Bill, I am waiting for another asian 6497 movement to reach me along with case and dial and hands. The plan is to service the movement and case it up. Fun project. Those movements are worth every penny(28 dollars) and the case was only 21 dollars. Eventually I will order a real ETA 6497 from esslingers. Those aren't cheap. VPH on the new movements are 19600
Hey Glen, that's an interesting VPH. I wonder where that came from? Sounds like 2.75Hz, no? Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Great video! Well done.
Hey James, thanks man! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
The book you mentioned must've been Derek Pratt Watchmaker? It's still on my want-to-buy list. In fact, Mr Devanthey from Oscillon recommended it to me :)
I received it, and it's very eclectic but focusing on Derek Pratt or articles by Derek. I'm enjoying it a lot. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Fascinating, thanks Bill. You put a lot of time into this. Pun intended.
Actually, Phil, I spend a lot of time playing! (Don't tell anyone ... and I won't mention the pun...) Take care and be safe, Bill😷
As per your reply the reason for low frequency in fine watches is that they are hand wound. Long pwer reserve measn more even power if wound daily. High beat watches are usually automatic and reserve is less an issue. Automatics especailly ver efficient winding are in a sense constant force because of the mainspring clutch. They are at near full power worn worn actively. They also have life limited components while hand wound watches really do not.
If you want really long reserve the co axial and detents are even better since they impilse only once per cycle.
In wear, automatics are more accurate but they are rated by COSC without the automatic mechanism. This observatory tests do not show the advantage of autowinding but this was reason Rolex went to it in the 30's. They wanted robust watches that kept good time in active use and the autowind help maintain seals.
Osternhausen, in his book on chronometer grade wristwatches found the GP high beats were one of the best performers., beating much more expensive.
Handwound will last longer, like indefinitely, and with a slower beat long reserve and daily winding should do quite well and only lab tests will find accuracy differences compared to high beat automatics.
Hey Doc, I don't think it's a matter of hand wound vs. automatic, but that may influence some of the decisions in other ways. Most of the top watchmakers use 18,000 vph or 21,600 vph ... and I've wondered why. Did you check out the video when I interviewed some of the top people and they responded? Check it out... ua-cam.com/video/NX9vQRC_hh4/v-deo.html Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci Thanks again for your reply.
I had not watched the entire video but stopped when I got to what I think is the real reason. I watched the rest. I think the others are mostly marketing nonsense. I argue that it s power reserve and the ability to run for 24 hours on a smaller part of the full mainspring. This is why almost all the 5 Hz movement are automatics, El Primera, Ultra chron, HF Chronometer (GP) Seiko and Grand Seiko. With the wearer replenishing power more s available to run the watch.
The Mt Blanc argument that they make their own balance springs and 2.5 Ha is easier.is nonsense A 5 Hz spring is more robust and easy to handle and more resistant to deforming when installing or removing a balance.
In a nutshell ,higher beat takes more energy to run a watch for 24 hours. Most of this power goes into starting and stopping the train which is lost power. More ticks per day equals more energy required. There are losses in the balance too but a vibrating balance has a lot more energy than the that from a single impulse. I can go into more detail if you reply to my email.
@@DrJon-zf2xo Your point of view is clear and rational from the point of the practical use of a watch. These watchmakers in the video, with perhaps one exception, are not assembly line workers but artisans and artists. As a watch collector of fine craftsmanship, my views are not practical in the conventional sense but rather looking to see how true artisans address age-old problems of constant force in the most elegant manner. Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
When I see a movement I like, I look in watchbase to see all the watches that use the movement. I didn't know Tissot made such a cheap 6849-1 till you told me. I love that moment. And I was really interested to hear about Muhle woodpecker regulator . Regulators are such an important part of the movement
Hey Andy, the ETA/Unitas 6489-1 with a regulator can be adjusted finely ... with a woodpecker even more so! (And you don't have to pay for the service!) Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Thank you for sharing! What a beautiful video!! I remember some Russian watches has the double barrel, like the "POLJOT INTERNATIONAL TSARS OR RUSSIA" 18000vph, double barrel, about 600€ list price, I think it might be one of the less expensive you can find with a double barrel.
Thanks Fabrizio! I did not know about the Russian watches with a double barrel. I have a Poljot Alarm, but I've never opened the back to look at the movement. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci I got some Russian watches, nowadays Poljot is raising their street prices, while Vostok amphibian remains a bargain, so much watch for the price! I got some poljot aviator chrono too, very reliable mechanical movement, derived from Valjoux. The Sekonda Strela is a very interesting and vintage looking chrono, even if the price is always rising...
Hi Bill, great video thanks and greetings from Germany.
One question: I stumbled across the new Frederique Constant slimline monolithic manufacture. I think the 40 hz oscilator movement is very interesting. What do you think of the tech? Would love to hear your thoughts as i am thinking of ordering it. thanks and happy easter
RB, a lot of people are excited by the new Freddie at 40Hz. In many ways it's a departure from traditional horology and going the hi-tech route. That's been done with the Apple Smart watch....and earlier with quartz. The local watchmaker cannot touch its silicon regulator and other gizmos. If you want an accurate watch; fine-my iPhone handles that department-but while there's some whiz-bang whirly-gigs in the Freddie; I'm sticking with traditional transition metals and leaving the metalloids to whomever wants them. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
As I learned from you a Remontoir d’Egalite attends to the same function.
Hi Bart ... I'd really like to add a remontoir d'Egalité to my collection, but they're mucho expensive... see if I can talk a watchmaker into making one for regular collectors! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Voutilainen and 6498 movement looks quite similar
In some ways Indrajit, you're right, but the Voutilainen balance is bigger and free sprung, while the Unitas 6498 has a smaller balance and is curbed-but in the affordability department...the 6498 is waaaaaay ahead! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Hey Bill, great video! 😃
Hey VI, thanks man! Take care and be safe, Bill 😷
Very interesting, Bill. Certainly, I like my Muhle Terrasport - a tough, practical watch, with a nice regulator! But, this beat rate subject... I scratch my head on this one, based on the engineering in performance engines (more revs, better!). I just can't believe that low beat rate is 'better'. Forgiving of hand-made tolerance, yes; more resistant to impact, yes; easier to regulate, yes. Less long-term wear, like a Hemi, maybe, but dependent on quality! But finer, more accurate? Just as a 16000rpm engine from Honda/Yamaha can run 100,000 miles, surely so does a Zenith or Seiko hi-beat?
If beat rate is the enemy, why have all mass-market watch makers chosen 28k vph (and the performance race-horses, 36k), which would otherwise simply rob power reserve? Perhaps a a way of achieving acceptable accuracy for the least manufacturing cost (less regulation etc)? But then a Rolex 3135 will knock out 2 second/d accuracy for 10 years, without service, from a machine made, mass produced movement - is this so bad?
I have huge respect to Omega for utilising the Daniels escapement (and own one), but if it's no more accurate (less in fact than a Rolex) and the wear benefit is marginal (still needs a service every 10 years, just like a bog-stock Rolex), then where's the real world benefit? Seiko's Spring Drive is a genuine innovation, but even I accept (as an owner), it's not a purely mechanical solution, therefore cheating! If so, then are not the real stars of the show the 1sec/d hi-beats that can run and run? Are there any master watch-maker hand-made watches that use a 36k kph movement? Or more? What's the highest hi beat!? Surely if an engine can turn at 16k rpm, a watch could do 72k vph! Imperceptible second hand judder!
I think we need to bring back serious chronometry trials! Surely, with modern design tools, manufacture and metal coatings we could achieve 1sec a month (given optimum winding)! I don't accept this 'quartz is more accurate, so we can all go home' attitude! A lot of watch movement design is antediluvian - fine for the traditional masters and absolutely should be kept alive and further mastered, but the big factories? Throw in a silicon spring, promise 'COSC accuracy' - a joke BTW - and journos clap like seals (well, we don't!) C'mon - they're lazy and sitting on pots of cash that never goes toward R&D, just marketing and dial footling.
Hi James, you are right. Why are the most popular rates 28,800 vph? So, you choose between the best watchmakers using 18,000 vph and the most popular using the higher rate. Which way to jump? Popularity or quality? (Check out this video: ua-cam.com/video/NX9vQRC_hh4/v-deo.html ) Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Oh Bill and I just thought about something: The higher the beatrate/frequency the more stable the oscillation and the more accurate of course the timekeeping. Lower oscillation frequency is not only a nod to the pocketwatch era (and by this to the heritage of watchmaking) plus it requires more skill and knowledge to design the movement and the complications to be extremely accurate despite the lower frequency. So a watch that runs on low frequency and at the same time is extremely accurate speaks for the watchmakers skill, finetuning and regulation. What do you think? Plausible thoughts?
There are all kinds of gives and takes, Severin. They also tend to have larger balance wheels, and the larger wheels lead to greater stability. However, given the circumference of the larger wheel, the longer the semi-oscillation requiring a lower frequency ... but the details of the amplitude are a bit hazy. With the slower frequencies the amplitude was around 120 degree back in the days when 18,000 vph. I think the main advantage of a lower frequency is that there's less wear and tear, less friction and better stability with a larger balance. Putting all of the disparate elements together I would think requires a lot better watchmaker. Check out this video : ua-cam.com/video/NX9vQRC_hh4/v-deo.html I did it a couple years ago trying to find out why the lower frequencies were used. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Hi Bill, great video. I changed my handle from my name to my old prison nickname, styx,(iam a skinny bastard). Anyway I haven't been on the channel for a bit, so I'm catching up on the back catalog. Thanks for bringing us this stuff. Dial color, or bracelet is not a deal breaker for me, so it's nice to see options for less than 5 figures.
Well if you're a skinny watch collector with the name Styx, I'd probably have to be barrel! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
besides a few russian ones the 6498/7 are the only ones i know good enough that i feel confident playing with them. have funsies bill .
Hey NoIdea ... don't stick your nose up at the Seagull ST 36xx clones ... for experimenting, they don't cost as much to replace when you break them! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci tbh, all the first ones were chinese clones. (got me 2 real onest though, they ar near the bench) do you think my moneis grow in the garden? haha. have a good time bill, keep it up, i learn so much.
i got one chinese unitas that keeps better time than all the other ones. might be a sunday piece. (just did the reassemly and the oiling. and i shy away from the balance. will talk to my watchmaker next week about that.
Hello sir! I wanted to request a video for a 3 watch collection consisting of a diver, stop watch and dress watch. In the livestream I mentioned reverso, speedy pro and submariner. The reason for selection was that they were not tier4 and sturdy enough to take some hits in around a 15k budget give or take.
I personally dont like the design of the submariner. If I had not decided on one watch per brand, I wouldve gone with latest seamaster version which draws strong influence from the sleek 1950s model.
I would love your take on a decent 3watch collection in around a 15_16k cost. Kind regards
Ok Antibody, I'll put it on my list! Do you mean a 'chronograph' instead of a stop watch? Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci yes sir, I mean a chrono. Infact there are just so many options .. from the habrin2, alpremero to the type20. Initially in the cost aspect the speedy was a great deal but now its close to the type20 in terms of price. However I had read that in terms of movements, type 20 has the worst breguet movement.
In terms of divers, two watches are close to the 1950s design. They either dont fall in the one watch per brand, self imposed criteria (sea master 300m) or have a tier4 brand. (Longese heritage diver)
@@malverde5883 Have you considered a Ulysse Nardin Regatta?
@@watchartsci Thankyou I will look into it. UN was not on my radar till now.
Meistersinger is indeed German, out of Münster. Happy Easter.
I thought it was Gunther, but there are a lot of German-Swiss companies located in Switzerland; so I wasn't sure. Years ago I was in Münster as part of some research I was doing at the University of Leiden in The Netherlands. It's a wonderful town. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Hello, Bill: I am looking for the best horology as possible for me. The best watch for the money, under $1500. I was thinking in a diver (real ISO 6425), because I never take off the watch of my wrist. It is like my second skin. I like the date-day complication. I am undecided between Certina DS Action Diver or Seiko King Turtle. But I am open to listen your opinion in these and another watches. Please, I need your help. Thanks in advance.
Hi Jorge, if you can find a Christopher Ward with a SH21 movement for that price, it'd be an excellent buy I believe. Seiko's are good too. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@WatchArtSci Thank you Bill for your fast answer. I found the Mido diver, sapphire glass, 600 meters water resistance, ceramic bezel, COSC chronometer, the movement is Powermatic 80 with Si. Even a helium valve, which I will never going to use, but makes the package very complete. $1145 in Jomashop and I can grab an extra coupon. What do you think?
@@jddz2 Sounds like you know where the values are --- great choice! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Ferrari vs Toyota. Yes the likes of Ferrari and Lamborghini make wonder motors but just don’t last as long as a Toyota or Honda motors. Their is always a price to pay for high performance.
From what I understand Monkey, the Ferraris are the worst ... after a relatively short period, and you can get a fairly inexpensive one. Watches just need to go in for factory service. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
What does 'affordable ' mean?
Poli, it's relative ... for some, it's $100; for others it's $10,000. Take care and be safe, Bill😷
@@watchartsci white gold started at 25k. Come on.
Sorry. My admin made a typo.
And my dog ate my script! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
Is your dog named" Rolex"?
What James?! And have the SPCA on my case? Not me! Take care and be safe, Bill😷
V
V? What's 'V' James? Take care and be safe, Bill😷
1) Any idea why Omega is using the unusual balance wheel speed of 25.200 bph (3.5 Hz)? 2) the 500-series of Omega auto movements in the late sixties all had swan neck regulation as standard
Hi Erik, I think just to cut down on the friction some, but Daniels was dealing with Omega who wanted 4Hz. All of Roger Smith's watches used 2.5Hz, and I'm assuming that was what Daniels would have preferred. Yes, the swan necks can even be found in pocket watches. I like them. Take care and be safe, Bill😷