I know of a few people who have stopped travelling long distances with GWR because of the excruciating seats. I think the fire safety argument is a red herring; after all older trains with comfortable seats are still in service. I think it's because the ironing board seats are cheaper to buy and will probably require less maintenance and fewer repairs as there are no springs and no liquid absorbent paddings. As a train driver for GWR , I feel embarrassed to be driving the Shitachis as they are known. The seats on SWT 159s are wonderfully comfy, being nice and squashy with a decent recline; the only downside being the tight knee room.
If they are claiming fire safety then why are there coach buses and buses with coach seats that comfortable. Heck some buses with normal seats can be comfortable if you fit the right seats. And if they want to claim fire safety the 3+2 seating configuration is more of a fire risk due to more people evacuating from such as small area.
@@littleratbag1111 I call the Desiros 'Disastros'. When I was guard way back in BR days I used to be able to run through a Pig (442) when it was at speed. Try that with a Disastro and you'll take your knees out. Even walking through you get chucked about.
Presumably it's a combination of animosity towards the railways on the part of decision makers and general hatred of our fellow human beings. These two factors explain much in modern life. I also have my doubts as to the level of introspection people have as regards their own motives. If seats were more comfortable, luggage space were adequate, and there were palatable food, I suspect far less people would find car/plane ‘easier’ and more ‘convenient’.
I dare say there's individuals in government who still have that irrational fear of trains. Remember how they wanted to close the Chiltern & turn it into an express busway? 🤣 Yet it's the chiltern that bails out the WCML or XC towards Brum on the regs. They also wanted to shut St Pancras, presumably as it was so dark & grimey they were only thinking of the cleaning bill, stuff the passengers.... now look at it!
I do think the DfT have a lot to answer for when it comes to seat comfort. There are plenty of examples of passengers changing routes to travel on older but more comfortable trains.
@@barrieshepherd7694 it's insane that the 225 is being scrapped, yet is viewed as a 'luxury train' for Wales!? And then, to add insult to injury, Wales only wants a few of them (when they're being scrapped!), & their other 'intercity' route to Cardiff has problems with trains catching fire, so they're getting scrapped as well.
To me it really just seems like another cost-saving measure. In switzerland we have plenty of good seats, one of my personal favorites being the one found on SOB's FLIRT 3. I was honestly kinda shocked when I got to try out merseyrail's class 777's seats at Stadler Rheintal, the TfW class 231's seats were better, but still pretty bad imo. I just don't see it being related to the fire safety regulations and think that's just a bad excuse for using cheaper seats.
Difficult to beat Switzerland for all aspects of public transport.....and much more too!
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I agree with you. Fire resistance comes from the materials used, and plenty of other trains have comfortable seats. Though newer European trains can also have worse seats, but they also usually seat more. So I also think it comes down to cost saving and cramming more seats into the same area.
What we've started doing in Switzerland instead is install lights so bright and so white on new trains (and trams) that it gives me insomnia. I'm being told to use a blue light filter on screen or whatever when it's dark outside, and then I take a train and it's just the exact kind of light I was told to avoid at the highest possible brightness. SOB definitely seems to care about passenger comfort more than other companies. The quality of seats in general is also declining in Switzerland if we compare trains that entered service during the past few years to older ones, especially when it comes to 1st class seats. SOB (and to a lesser extend BLS) seem to be a bit of an exception when it comes to this. I read online (probably on Wikipedia or something) that the seats in SOB's Traverso (Flirt 3) in 2nd class were the same ones (or at least similar ones) SBB uses in their Mouette trains (these are Flirt 4 I think) in 1st class. And yes, the two trains run similar services I'd say.
@@jonistan9268 The lights are not just a Swiss thing, they're often ridiculously bright in new British trains too, and everywhere across Europe for that matter. I have no idea why this is.
As a student in the 1970's I was lucky enough to regularly travel on the later East Coast BR mk2 air conditioned coaches - what bliss those seats were compared to what has come later - with a decent backrest rake and full side head supports, they enabled comfortable sleep without the head falling forward. Very good video - I've previously written to seat manufacturers to ask why their products are so uncomfortable.....but with no answer.
But... my God, didn't the old seats _stink!_ Comfortable, but the scent of a thousand sweaty bodies condensed into a single pong. And not just the UK. Staying in Syria I preferred the third-class wooden benches to the luxury of first class - and that pong.
A really useful video on a topic that most train travellers have an opinion! If airlines can design a comfortable, safe seat for journeys lasting many hours why can’t trains have seats that are comfortable?
So glad you’ve done this. Its probably the single most important issue in rail travel in my opinion. I spend £500 a month on my train travel and its just not good enough
Many thanks for a splendid and long-awaited analysis of the modern train seats. I've lost count of the number of 1st class passengers on LNER who have grumbled about the "ironing board`' seats on the Azumas. This has been a genuine disincentive for business travel. One factor which wasn't mentioned is the fact that many modern seats on trains (and planes) save space. The shallower profiles of modern thin seats which, when scaled up to a full carriage or cabin, allow more seats without any perceived loss of legroom - thus more capacity - which is what it is all above nowadays, not passenger comfort. Try putting these new seats on "luxury" dining excursion trains and see what reaction they would get. Also, modern home furnishing is getting even more "deep comfort" and yet we are expected to spend hours on hard and uncomfortable seats on trains and planes.
I'm young enough to have only commuted on the ironing boards and am quite used to it for an hour, but when i go to a heritage steam line the seats are splendid and i could retire for a week into them!
Trains seats were dreadful in the '50s and early '60s. I remember as a lad sitting in cattle-class compartment coaches with my head pushed forward at an uncomfortable angle by the seat backs, which were vertical rather than tilted back. Trips to Scarborough or Bridlington were, literally, a pain in the neck. My favourite seats were on the original HST - in fact they are my favourite trains overall. I never saw aircraft seating on those trains (mainly Huntingdon Leeds). Every seat had table space, and a window, and room for big bags behind the seat, and luggage racks that could accommodate more than a newspaper. They were build for long distances, not commutes like most modern trains seem to be.
Trains have certainly become a lot more uncomfortable... personally I would say it's the DfT meddling more than anything else. Just look at the comparison between what GWR did with their own choice of 1st class travel and what the DfT specified for the new trains. We've swapped out comfortable leather armchairs and hot meals, to a solid lump to sit on and feeling lucky if we can even have a hot drink. I travel to London quite regularly from Westbury and the standard class seating is so abhorrently padded and so little reclined that I've had enough 10 minutes into the journey. If I travel to Cornwall I'd rather get a 150 from Taunton to Penzance than get an 800.
I used to enjoy train travel. The seats were comfortable and you could watch the scenery, not a wide window pillar. There was legroom. Even the Southern Region commuter trains in the 50s had better seats than todays long distance trains. If I have to sit in an airline seat, then I would rather go by air, getting there faster and cheaper. I cannot think of one government department that actually knows how to do anything without making a pig's ear of it. Health, Industry, Defence and probably the worst of the lot- Transport. It certainly doesn't help with the relevant ministers playing musical chairs between the departments instead of getting a grip on them.
@GWVillager I believe the British system is to assign non expert ministers. The civil servants already in the department are supposed to be the experts.
@@matthewlongstaff3112The civil servants may have been supposed experts but since they have been running things, the evidence is clear that they haven't a clue. I agree with GWIllager that the Ministers ought to have experience as did Ben Wallace in Defence. The only thing that Grant Shapps was good at was self-importance- he achieved nothing in Transport and has now gone to do the same in Defence. It certainly seems to prove your point about non-expert ministers.
@@GWVillager Meanwhile in my country quite a no. of ministers are ex-generals & admirals, probably because they're often military scholars too & have this been identified by the gov't from early on as having leadership potential, & the results have been mixed
The most uncomfortable seats I've ever sat on!!. Pacers may have had their faults but the seats were comfortable and plenty of windows, with narrow posts.
travelled from Bedford to Brighton on a 700 and could not move very well afterwards. so uncomfortable that we came back to town on a 377 instead. much more comfortable.
It's definitely a cost saving measure. Thinner seats means cheaper seats AND thinner means more can fit in a carriage, increasing capacity without need for more coaches or infrastructure.
I'm sure that was the DfT's mantra - more seats so the MPs won't keep getting the ranting letters from the SE commuters about no seats, and lower cost to save coffers. For intercity the more seats matter is really from the previous cock up on the capacity of the Cross Country sets - great idea shorter trains but double the number of services - actuality shorter trains and no increase in services - consequence thousands of complaints about overcrowding. Many Intercity trains don't travel approaching capacity - so they could go back to less, but comfortable, seats - and each one with a window .
That certainly could be a factor for an ironing board back, but not for the horizontal bit, as more padding there would just mean you are higher up off the floor, or there is less space between the base of the seat and the floor.
Yep. Couldn't agree more here. Nice to stumble across another youtuber with no obnoxious editing and not talking down to the viewer. Really respect that. Wish you the best for your growth :)
I noticed something interesting - there is a mention somewhere of the fact that if you want more seats in a coach, you'll have to basically make them less comfortable. Would that be plausible as well?
That's certainly part of it, seat pitch can affect capacity a surprising amount, though it probably comes under DfT cost-cutting measures (reluctance to pay for longer/more frequent trains etc.).
That's how GWR justified it on their local services. It increases density and capacity on commuter services without needing longer platforms or more frequent trains.
I travelled Newark to Venice (4 trains- Azuma to London, Eurostar to Paris, Italian Frecciarossa to Milan and Swiss Railways to Venice) and the most uncomfortable far and away were the Azuma- and these were the only ones where we had paid first class.
The exact model of seat used in the IET first class is also used in some European 2nd class regional trains. They are a poor seat for 2nd class and an absolute joke to expect someone to pay a premium for. It is only acceptable as a way of avoiding the even worse abominations in standard class.
About a month a go I travelled from Newcastle to Edinburgh (1st class return) on LNER`s Azuma Hitachi trains, I'm sorry to say I thought it was bloody well uncomfortable, actually horrible, give me an old MK3 coach anytime, even MK1.
Jon C, The MK1 seats were comfortable but perhaps not the most ergonomic for your back on long journeys. Seats in MK2 and MK3 were undoubtedly the pinnacle of comfort, combining orthopaedic design with comfortable upholstery. The rot set in with class 319 on Thameslink services followed by the Southeastern high speed commuter trains. Travelling to and from work on an ironing board is one thing but doing the same on GWR an LNER HST replacements is totally crazy, and should be avoided by the public if at all possible. I am old enough to remember when even some commuter trains had comfortable seats.
On a lot of routes 6-8 car loco hauled sets have been replaced by 2-3 car DMUs which although they have more cramped seats per coach still have far less seats than the proper comfortable coaches, not to mention the underframe engine noise that you didn't have on loco hauled trains, slight improvement with the GA Stadlers with their little "power pack" car, but even then you're at most two cars away from the noise, even EMUs are noisier now, the other annoying thing now is seats which don't even have windows like the airline seats which are lined up between two windows or the end seats on 800 units with no window at all
Good review, thank you. For the new GWR Hitachi sets, DafT had two options: short journey ironing board seats or long journey comfortable ones. Purely to cut costs, and knowing they would rarely be using them, ironing boards were specified. These seats are appalling. Lucky us. High costs, unreliable services and miserable journeys.
Interesting. The Class 800s ("Hitachi trains") are our London trains and I totally endorse your comments. Ironing boards! Also my wife is small and also hates them because her feet nowhere near reach the floor. First class is better if not great. The standard Eurostar and French TGVs I've been on are better, so not EU standards. Just money, I fear.
I used to travel alot on the GWR HST's in first class with the leather almost bucket like seats. They were fantastically comfortable (think they were introduced in 2009?) and the move from those kind of seats to the god awful modern ones on the IET's is absolutley shameful. Certainly it massively reduces my interest in travelling by train, I would generally try to travel by train instead of fly and one of the reasons for choosing was that while the journey was longer it was more comfortable, now that theres no differences between seats on a plane and those on a train it's much harder to tolerate the longer journeys.
I've seen a few photos of Fainsa Sophias in the new Sprinters there, I should like to try them out. I love your videos by the way, I recently found your channel.
Germany too. The seats in the ICE 4 trains are atrocious compared to some old late 20th century intercity cars which are nowadays used for regional services only.
They want people to use trains. The problem is the ticket cost. On the 700s First and Standard I have been told are the same seats. Those can be a little uncomfortable. In general Greater Anglia seats are good. I don’t think there’s much difference as I’ve ridden declassified First Class up in Norfolk. It’s a nice experience not too loud. The other factor might be is the new regs about train accessibility. Both these automatically level themselves to platform height so it’s not any difference in height. You need a straight platform to benefit this facility. I had a feeling some of the old 365’s when refurbished might have been given worse seats. On those they were nice round topped seats if I’m right but I think they were changed to less comfortable or is it just my imagination.
In Switzerland as well, for the longest time there had been big benches with enough space to have different sitting positions easily, these days in the bombardier twindex for example, the seats are so narrow and not well formed that it gives me back pain so I'm glad when a journey is only 2 hours or so before you can change to another train.
The 377s introduced around 2002 had refits with thinning uncomfortable seats giving way to ironing board thin and hard seats. Bloody awful and way before the 700 introduction. Upholstery was always the best, kapok and springs and horsehair and moquette. Lovely.
With the Class 800 one of the considerations was weight, they retrofitted diesel engines halfway through the design forcing the entire trains to be dangerously overweight for the chassis, bogies, and couplers. Take 10-20kg off 585 standard and 130 1st class seats, and you've partially sorted the problem. Also, one the DFT's main criteria were more seats at all costs to keep the commuters happy. They have shorter journeys to take and less need for luggage space. Hence thinner and closer together seats, fewer tables and far too little luggage space for the leisure travellers
The seat demand makes sense for the 700s, but why not add an extra two coaches to the 80Xs? Both the GWML and ECML could accommodate 11 car trains, and that would allow for bike/luggage space as well as extra capacity.
@@GWVillagerMore weight and expense. They actually specified 26m carriages to reduce the number required (the BR Mk3 is 23m). This necessitated making the carriages narrower. The unfeasible weight saving targets were notorious.
I don’t believe it its to do with fire safety if you can get buses and coaches with comfortable seats if the right seat is fitted of course and the fact that 3+2 seating being more of a fire risk due to more people evacuating from such a small area. I think the truth is private companies as well as the DfT under the tory government cheaping out so more money line their pockets.
An interesting video - well done! Until the Department of Transport are removed from any decision making process in the railways, the UK will continue to suffer inner suburban seating on many mainline services. DfT continually looks to cram in as many passengers as they can even at the price of comfort and leg room (the latter can place long-distance passengers at risk from DVT). Thameslink units were a DfT decision and not to the specification Southern would have liked (starting with the inflexibilities of a 12-car unit). When compared to a 12-car 377 formation there is less overall seating leading to more standing passengers. At the time of introduction the disabled seating areas (cars 6 & 7) hung off the short platforms at Lancing. In terms of train seating fires, HMRI took significant steps to address the causal factors following the arson fatality on the 23.15 Caterham to Norwood Junction train at Purley on Friday, 5th July 2002. The teenage arsonist was caught, sent to trial and sentenced to four years.
A few weeks ago I was travelling from Glasgow on an Avanti West Coast Pendolino. I was delighted to find it was one the refurbished ones. Two and a half hours later I got off the train at Wigan with an extremely numb arse. I think the New Puritans have taken over the civil service who are determined to prevent us from suffering comfort. We'll be sitting on spikes next.
I've haven't travelled on a Class 700 but I've done a few thousand miles on the class 195s. Not only do the 195s have a terrible ride quality,but the seats are awful too. The 2 car Northern 158s have the ironing board seats,but the 3 car 158s retain the MTB seats which I much prefer. However,one thing I notice between the 2 and 3 car 158s is the legroom on a 2 car 158 seems much better compared to the 3 car version. I'm absolutely convinced that the people who design these new seats have never travelled more than 20 minutes on a train. It would be interesting to hear from people who have done the London to Aberdeen or Inverness routes on board an Azuma and give an honest opinion to how it compared to the HSTs they replaced. Anyway great video!
Whilst I haven’t done London to Aberdeen/Inverness, I have done London to Penzance in both HSTs and IETs, and the difference becomes really noticeable after about 2 and a half hours. It becomes almost impossible to stay relaxed past then, you really need to take a brief walk.
Fascinating video. I too have noticed the deterioration in comfort in modern trains. Whilst I could believe your first theory that EU rules ruined them, I don't quite buy this because we have rules on fire resistance on sofas for decades yet it is still easy to find comfortable ones. I do however totally buy your second theory that it is a cost cutting measure because, being the private sector, any cost saved will end up in directors bonuses and shareholders pockets. I do not, by the way, travel by rail very often not because of crap seats but because of the extortionate expense of doing so these days.
@@derektaylor2941 Think the mark 1's were made out of wood and should of been replaced by mark 2's by then more so after Harrow and wieldstone multi train crash.
I worked on seat design for the BR InterCity 70 1st and 2nd class seats in the mid-70's and we were told we couldn't put our own input into the 'comfort' of the seat. This shape of the support, especially the backs, was ergonomically designed to give the best comfort we were assured, especially over long distances. The problem with most seats backs then and even today, is that they are too firm in the lower back area, and the headrests are too far back. Suburban stock seats naturally have thinner backs to enable more seats to be crammed in, and are used for shorter journeys. I really enjoy the old spring/horsehair seats in the Mk 1 carriages. The railway companies contract out the design of seats to others, and as a result, get what we see today, obviously designed by students!
@@GWVillager A considerable design effort went into BR seat design, mostly at Derby Research centre I believe. A lot of the work was for the APT where the desire was to reduce weight but maintain comfort - and they built a many faceted test seat as shown in the video. The Mk III seat is one of the results.
I’ve been on a class 800 for 5 hours and it’s horrible when you’ve been on it for a while, I really don’t want to know how bad class 700’s are and I hope I never will, it’s still a shame you don’t get the comfort for the price you have paid for a ride on a train hopefully it improves soon!
The ironing board seats were specified by the brainless civil servants at the DFT. I used to enjoy travelling by train on long journeys but as it is so uncomfortable now, I use my car with its comfortable seats
The seats are so bad on the GWR Class 800s, that I've decided that for me it's better to take a bus to London. It may take a few hours more, but it's FAR more comfortable.
Seat comfort is certainly a factor for me, even more so since I did my back in. I think the real reason is penny pinching and fire regs are a convenient excuse to hide behind. I went on the Leigh busway a couple of years ago and the seats on those buses were superb. The seats on the bus I got from Atherton to Leigh were also very comfortable. Both way better than any train seat I've experienced for a long time now. It's one reason I'll be sticking with the car.
Those hard seats are probably cheaper to manufacture, easier to clean, and they may resist vandalism better. Because the rail companies strive to provide service at the lowest possible cost, it's a no-brainer for them. Next year they may be installing wooden benches.
Azuma put me off travelling with LNER. Seats uncomfortable rock solid decided to opt out use car to go travelling around. Shame LNER bought Azuma’s in. Should’ve kept 125s in as well as keeping some 225s in. Comfort on board both those trains was luxury could just melt in the seats & relax enjoy the view/ride.
The seats are so bad they have driven me back to my car. My back just can't take 3 hours on an 800. Horrendous. First class is an insult. You have all these younger people that won't believe that life was better just 25 years ago or so. We had Hovercraft, Concorde, 125's (doing 135 and even 140mph in service on occasions), we had plush first class with curtains, deep seats and table-cloths with a Pullman service! Many of those aged under 25 years old refuse to believe this even happened! Just look at the old first class in the pictures in this video - enough said! Oh and then you get the cretins that say "due to fire safety regulations...." Nonsense! Coil springs are not illegal and no train ever caught fire due to the comfort of the seats. We have brainwashed ourselves into a false reality (like so much of society in 2023). There's always an excuse why things need to be uncomfortable, slower, less civilised and so on. Tired of people that have no competence or standards. Oh, and no-one should be thinking we can't do something because 'it will make it harder to join the EU'. Liberty is not for sale. Any cretin that wants to join the EU needs a hard history lesson that extends beyond 40 years. Britain has always stood up and had to do the hard lifting in Europe so I won't hear such nonsense. If democracy scares you, live in the EU, not the UK.
Scotrail refurbished their Class 156s a couple of years ago and replaced their relatively comfy British Rail-era seats with the same modern ironing boards used in the Class 385s. These seats may be tolerable on short commutes, but on the long rural routes served by the Super Sprinters, they are really unsuitable. And the seats are mounted higher than the IC70s, meaning the legroom under the table is reduced. It's a substantial downgrade.
Given the penchant for airline seating could it be that reducing seat padding across an entire carriage on a class 800 might mean you could fit in 4 more punters ??
I used the GWR service from Hereford to Paddington for many years. The latest Hitachi trains look drab, inside and out. The seats are dreadful. So much so, that I now use National Express taking a short train journey to nearest departure point. Czech trains in both classes are extremely comfortable. It can be done.
Hideously uncomfortable!? An under-statement I would not have believed until my buttocks endured four and a half hours of travel torture from Paddington to Truro on a seat in one of GWR's new inter-city trains!
Many moons ago, following a boozy weekend in Gloucester, I had the good fortune to spy a first class corridor coach downgraded to second class. I found an empty compartment, pulled down the blinds and caught up on my sleep undisturbed except by the guard checking tickets.
A great example of newer trains being more uncomfortable is on the electrostars. Older electrostars such as class 377s have some of the most comfortable seats on any British train, but newer variants such as the 387 have the ironing board design, which is probably the most uncomfortable train seat in the UK. This came even before the 700 which named them the ironing board seat.
Give me a Mark One Intercity coach, like those that went to Norwich until the early 90's any day. Squashy. Comfy and good for a snooze. Or a Class 205 DEMU.
It's the bizarre politics we have in this country. Government has its vanity projects, but the passenger still has to suffer. Moreover, government still wields the austerity stick & is still trying desperately to put people off traveling, through extortionate fares & now through design.
@@cameronallan5624 The TOC's probably have little say in the matter. The mandarins of the DfT dictate most things to do with train design maybe apart from paintwork.
on what planet are millions of commuters or rail travelers going to change options overnight because of hernia inducing seats? Comfort IS important, but getting to where you need to go is clearly the ONLY reason most people use transport. Saying people don't need comfortable seats is as unforgivable as saying it doesn't matter if people eat gruel every day of their life. These things matter. Stop breaking balls and backs and install a decent seat already.
The problem is not so much the thin foam as the profile. Hard wooden seats can be comfortable if they are correctly shaped. This information was all researched in the 1950s. Incidentally, seats designed to be placed back to back ie in facing bays, can be made lighter in weight as they do not need such substantial frames. You also gain the luggage space between seat backs. The designers are lazy and incompetent. It is too much effort for them to look up the information.
It costs no more to make an ironing board seat comfortable. The trouble is due to the profile. The designers are lazy and incompetent. The information has been available since the 1950s, following research which was done then.
I actually think the seats on local buses in the uk are better than the train seats at least they have actually decent cushioning and sometimes a head rest, usb charging and even free WiFi!!! Its the one reason why i stopped riding the trains and instead get the bus when i just want to go from one place to another obviously for longer trips i still use the train
I went on the Leigh busway a couple of years ago and the seats on those buses were superb. The seats on the bus I got from Atherton to Leigh were also very comfortable. Both way better than any train seat I've experienced recently.
The newer seats probably take up less room , allowing more paying bums on seats per carriage, in the same way in which budget airlines have cattle class seating. I wonder if someone did a calculation as to average seat/time occupancy in their design, in the same way in which some seats in public buildings are designed to discourage long term occupants. Fine on local train services but not on long haul.
much of LT's CO/CP sub-surface stock was of an early phase and had queerly tall backings to their forward/backward seats for a subway, and their big-ass seat cushions were grand to which the depths must've had measured at least one foot...but the funniest was how ABOMINABLY dusty they'd become: thrashing the seat merely once brought about quite a billow of THICK dust...they were classy...
The old Metropolitan line stock,the A class, were the most comfortable rolling stock on the Underground. Many of the current trains are hideously uncomfortable.
Bombardier's first ever train seating used to have its seats and backrests made into clothed padding, but vandals had taken to spinning them into flying frisbees: ua-cam.com/video/ysMLOnZQF7I/v-deo.html
thanks so much! I'm a Brit living in France where trains are comfortable and fast. I haven't been back to Devon ( my home county) for a vey long time and am now dreading visiting by the discomfort of train seats now..I have an arthritic lower back....I'm wondering what to do ..should I travel by coach or abandon travelling to the UK completely
If you go to Devon, I assume you'll take the Brittany Ferry straight to Plymouth? When travelling about in Britain, most older trains are still comfortable, so I wouldn't worry too much, but, if you do get a modern train, first class can be much better. Maybe bring a cushion as well?
After one attempt I no longer travel beyond Plymouth on GWR from London. It's already bad enough after two hours. I feel operators thought they didn't have to care as services were so oversubscribed but now its changed and they need to offer comfort if they want people to come back.
I remember going to york with TPE ended up getting a class 185 there and a 802 back and oh my god I am going to avoid the 802 at all costs the seats were horroble whereas the older 185s seats were bliss in comparison I could almost fall asleep in the 185.
A very good commentary on this subject. I think the worst aspect of these seats is the bolt upright angle. If they were more reclined, they would be more tolerable. I find there is plenty of legroom (on class 800) so this could be done without reducing capacity or affecting fire resistance. I don't mind airline style seating. If you travel alone, it is better than having to stare at strangers or play footsy with them! The class 800's are just awful trains with a noisy, rough ride and noisy underfloor engines and loud whining traction motors. I suspect we bought the cheapest and it shows! As a leisure traveller, I am now starting to drive trips that I might have used the train for because I just can't stand the discomfort.
I agree, the seats applied to the refurbished 390s are actually reasonably comfortable thanks to their recline. Curiously, the 800s are actually rather expensive trains, which is really disappointing when you consider how quickly the GWR sets have aged and the poor quality of many aspects.
To recreate the best seat available, customers could take their own cushions for improved comfort. No... hang on that would detract from the fire-safety of the vehicle. Maybe the next step in the 'conditions of carriage' would be that all customers should wear fire-proof clothing, conforming to BS EN ISO 11612:2015. Passengers failing to comply will be denied boarding, refunds not available. Daft, isn't it! 🤪🤪🤪
I think the BR mark 3 was where passenger comfort reached its summit. Quiet, airconditioned, good ride quality, and seats that were fit for a long journey - all in one coach. Having said that I didn't find the TPE 80x that I went on uncomfortable, but it was a big step down from a mark 3 - the traction motor and engine noise was surprisingly high.
I'll take an old MK1,2,3 over the new ironing boards anyday or my car!! Shame when a 50+ year old coach on a preservation line is far more comfortable than a brand new one. And I'd take a decent seat over any euro- interoperability any day.
It’s bizarre that the S8 trains on the metropolitan that is designed for short commuter runs is more comfortable than the main line seats of the Chiltern.
Very good indeed, thanks. I think the cost-cutting zealots at the DfT are largely to blame. Regarding EU standards, the UK government is currently pushing through Parliament a bill to abolish all EU regulations after 31st December 2023. This will delight Brexit-voters as the seats will no longer be forced to comply with EU fire and safety standards. Therefore we should hope to have more comfortable and softer seats from 2024 when these tiresome EU regulations have been, well, bonfired!
It's not only train seats. You can throw in airline seats as well.The GWR IET seats are used in Germany on commuter trains, not intercity longhaul. It's all about cost now not passenger comfort.
Airline seating on trains should be scrapped! They’re totally unacceptable, as are all seating on 700s and 800s. It’s as if passengers are being deliberately put off travelling by train. Fire regulations are just a lame excuse. The DfT doesn’t care and has no idea. How often does a fire happen on a train? Very very rarely! If I was Manager of a TOC I’d insist on quality seating on all my trains.
Whilst they are nowhere near as bad as later trains, i think that seat comfort started to go downhill in the 1990s, with the advent of the Class 158 Sprinter and the Mark 4 coaches used on the ECML electric trains. Although I would happily go back to them now.
Not to mention 3+2 seat arrangements which are still being fitted to new trains despite them not increasing real capacity, decreasing seat comfort and increasing journey times.
@@GWVillager I think they're just used so they can say look how many more seats we have in our new trains, not actually caring that basically no one uses the middle seat. It's cheaper to lie about added capacity rather than add another coach or run a couple more peak trains to actually solve the issue.
Having traveled on many hundreds of trains throughout Europe, I can confidently say it's nothing to do with eu regulations and everything to do with privatisation. Most eu countries still own their railways in full or in majority shareholding As a result the governments shove lots of money into them, something that the corrupt private rail operators of the UK have no cause to do. Combined with the UK govt attitude against any form of reinvestment and voila you get the ironing board.
So it isn't just me after all. I travel fairly often ( strikes permitting) between Penzance and a station just outside Bristol, usually GWR . I remember when new trains came in and was initially quite excited to see it was a ' new' train . ...( Sorry but that's the extent of my knowledge of detail). I soon changed my mind as after five hours ish I was suffering from numb bum . Nowadays I don't even get the chance to stroll to the buffet coach to ease things. Oh I miss buffet coaches. Anyway thanks for giving me the opportunity to understand why my journey is so uncomfortable. 😕
My line was moved from 150/156/158/185/180 to 319/350 to 331/397 and let me tell you the seats on the 331s are dreadful. They were way worse since they’ve switched to moquette seating but they are still awful. They have ironing boards like the rest of modern trains but they’re so bad even the sideways seats are more comfortable than them and they aren’t even full seats
I recently spent 6 hours on a French Corail coach from the 1970s, which are slowly vanishing from the SNCF... which is a pity, as it was the most comfortable train seat I've ever sat in, including the class 3 and class 5 British ones. Just to prove that the French aren't geniuses, the RER train I took to get on that intercite service had seats that felt just as bad as the class 800s (or the "refurbished" castle sets) GWR have... those poor Castle sets, they ruined them with concrete seat pads.
RER trains are mostly short-distance trains, you will rarely spend more that 1 hour in a RER while the class 800s is a long distance train. I think it is more adequate to compare the class 800s to the TGVs. The latters are far more confortable, even the recent ones (though it is not very difficult to be more confortable than the class 800s). Besides that I agree with you, Corail coaches are amazing, and sadly they begin to disappear, though SNCF had this great idea to reuse them as "ouigo vitesse classique'' trains, which are basically low-cost trains that are not very fast (''vitesse classique'' literraly means ''classic speed'') or expensive but very confortable.
As someone who started with British Rail way back in 1987 and of course with the protected free travel benefits, I have encountered many, many types of seats. I cannot understand why so called 'ergonomic seats' cause so much pain when they are supposed to be comfortable. I do remember travelling on a modern (for its time), Inter City Swiss train back in the late 90s and the Std seat was rock hard, no padding at all. The old Norwegian trains were lovely and the Finnish Stds were like Pullmans, reclining and complete with antimaccasers. As for the 800s over here, I haven't experienced Std but the 1st was ok and rather like the SWT Disastros before SWR decided to make them 2+2 bolt upright and non reclining. Std is better.
Considering Thameslink's 700s call at both Luton and Gatwick airports they are shit for the job Seats are tiny. I'm not particularly tall, about 5"10 and I have no leg room.
The seats on the Amfleet and Super/Viewliners are amazing, though the new Venture coaches seem a little less palatial. Another comment suggested this may be down to wheelchair accessibility requirements.
@@GWVillager yeah it is. At least in their width. The other issue is that you can’t recline. But that is because the tray tables are now much better. Since they don’t have any venture coaches on the long distance routes yet I guess it is yet to be seen how they will deal with this.
Heard only thing the americans can actually do well when it comes to trains is seating. And considering some services are travelling for multiple days it does make sense.
Apart from seats , what about on train catering ? something to look into as these days with frozen food and micro wave ovens should be a lot better than what we get offered today.
I once went on a quality management lecture by a chap who designed seats for BR. He said the main quality passenger interface are the passengers' bums. He said the seat density rule of thumb was "16 inches per bum, 16 bums per ton" was applied but people were getting fatter!
The funniest part of this, is ht eexamption of Ironing Boards to First Class seats. I think this decline in seats comfort is all about money to maintain them and create extra space for more seats rows. Safety sounds more like an excuse that actually something functional regarding to ironing boards.
Best seats are on the Bakerloo line, maybe 30 years old but very much more confortable than the ironing board seating on Crossrail and Thameslink. I dislike opposing seats, many uncouth passengers rest their filthy boots on the opposing seat, not exclusively a male preoccupation. I always opt for the airline style seats, hoping that they are slightly cleaner. Even Eurostar is uncomfortable.
I know of a few people who have stopped travelling long distances with GWR because of the excruciating seats. I think the fire safety argument is a red herring; after all older trains with comfortable seats are still in service. I think it's because the ironing board seats are cheaper to buy and will probably require less maintenance and fewer repairs as there are no springs and no liquid absorbent paddings. As a train driver for GWR , I feel embarrassed to be driving the Shitachis as they are known. The seats on SWT 159s are wonderfully comfy, being nice and squashy with a decent recline; the only downside being the tight knee room.
If they are claiming fire safety then why are there coach buses and buses with coach seats that comfortable. Heck some buses with normal seats can be comfortable if you fit the right seats. And if they want to claim fire safety the 3+2 seating configuration is more of a fire risk due to more people evacuating from such as small area.
Shitatchi made me chuckle :-)
CIE Cravens coach’s seats are very comfortable
Why ,if they are safety seats, don't they have them on Airliners which need much safety standards. As you say it it a red herring.
@@littleratbag1111 I call the Desiros 'Disastros'. When I was guard way back in BR days I used to be able to run through a Pig (442) when it was at speed. Try that with a Disastro and you'll take your knees out. Even walking through you get chucked about.
Seats are more important than many think! Well done!
Saving weight , fire retardent and cheaper , take up less room so more bums on seats . bring back the hst .
@@maly2ts408 my thoughts exactly
Comfortable travelling is a selling point Why do train companies like GWR want to force customers off their trains?
Presumably it's a combination of animosity towards the railways on the part of decision makers and general hatred of our fellow human beings. These two factors explain much in modern life.
I also have my doubts as to the level of introspection people have as regards their own motives. If seats were more comfortable, luggage space were adequate, and there were palatable food, I suspect far less people would find car/plane ‘easier’ and more ‘convenient’.
I dare say there's individuals in government who still have that irrational fear of trains. Remember how they wanted to close the Chiltern & turn it into an express busway? 🤣 Yet it's the chiltern that bails out the WCML or XC towards Brum on the regs. They also wanted to shut St Pancras, presumably as it was so dark & grimey they were only thinking of the cleaning bill, stuff the passengers.... now look at it!
I do think the DfT have a lot to answer for when it comes to seat comfort. There are plenty of examples of passengers changing routes to travel on older but more comfortable trains.
I cheer when a Mk 4 is in the platform at KX for my journey north so much more relaxing journey than on the Hitachi trains.
@@barrieshepherd7694 it's insane that the 225 is being scrapped, yet is viewed as a 'luxury train' for Wales!? And then, to add insult to injury, Wales only wants a few of them (when they're being scrapped!), & their other 'intercity' route to Cardiff has problems with trains catching fire, so they're getting scrapped as well.
To me it really just seems like another cost-saving measure.
In switzerland we have plenty of good seats, one of my personal favorites being the one found on SOB's FLIRT 3. I was honestly kinda shocked when I got to try out merseyrail's class 777's seats at Stadler Rheintal, the TfW class 231's seats were better, but still pretty bad imo. I just don't see it being related to the fire safety regulations and think that's just a bad excuse for using cheaper seats.
Difficult to beat Switzerland for all aspects of public transport.....and much more too!
I agree with you.
Fire resistance comes from the materials used, and plenty of other trains have comfortable seats.
Though newer European trains can also have worse seats, but they also usually seat more. So I also think it comes down to cost saving and cramming more seats into the same area.
The seats on the FLIRTs they have in Norway look pretty comfy too - esp compared to the GWR 800 seats which are appalling.
What we've started doing in Switzerland instead is install lights so bright and so white on new trains (and trams) that it gives me insomnia. I'm being told to use a blue light filter on screen or whatever when it's dark outside, and then I take a train and it's just the exact kind of light I was told to avoid at the highest possible brightness.
SOB definitely seems to care about passenger comfort more than other companies. The quality of seats in general is also declining in Switzerland if we compare trains that entered service during the past few years to older ones, especially when it comes to 1st class seats. SOB (and to a lesser extend BLS) seem to be a bit of an exception when it comes to this. I read online (probably on Wikipedia or something) that the seats in SOB's Traverso (Flirt 3) in 2nd class were the same ones (or at least similar ones) SBB uses in their Mouette trains (these are Flirt 4 I think) in 1st class. And yes, the two trains run similar services I'd say.
@@jonistan9268 The lights are not just a Swiss thing, they're often ridiculously bright in new British trains too, and everywhere across Europe for that matter. I have no idea why this is.
As a student in the 1970's I was lucky enough to regularly travel on the later East Coast BR mk2 air conditioned coaches - what bliss those seats were compared to what has come later - with a decent backrest rake and full side head supports, they enabled comfortable sleep without the head falling forward. Very good video - I've previously written to seat manufacturers to ask why their products are so uncomfortable.....but with no answer.
But... my God, didn't the old seats _stink!_ Comfortable, but the scent of a thousand sweaty bodies condensed into a single pong. And not just the UK. Staying in Syria I preferred the third-class wooden benches to the luxury of first class - and that pong.
CIE cravens coaches seats ah bliss
A really useful video on a topic that most train travellers have an opinion! If airlines can design a comfortable, safe seat for journeys lasting many hours why can’t trains have seats that are comfortable?
So glad you’ve done this. Its probably the single most important issue in rail travel in my opinion. I spend £500 a month on my train travel and its just not good enough
They are effing awful, absolutely awful. Loads of them don’t even match up with windows now too.
Many thanks for a splendid and long-awaited analysis of the modern train seats. I've lost count of the number of 1st class passengers on LNER who have grumbled about the "ironing board`' seats on the Azumas. This has been a genuine disincentive for business travel. One factor which wasn't mentioned is the fact that many modern seats on trains (and planes) save space. The shallower profiles of modern thin seats which, when scaled up to a full carriage or cabin, allow more seats without any perceived loss of legroom - thus more capacity - which is what it is all above nowadays, not passenger comfort. Try putting these new seats on "luxury" dining excursion trains and see what reaction they would get. Also, modern home furnishing is getting even more "deep comfort" and yet we are expected to spend hours on hard and uncomfortable seats on trains and planes.
Agreed, the Azuma seats are a crime against comfort
Says a lot when early 1960’s Cravens coach’s are more comfortable than CAF 29000 and Hyundai 22000
I'm young enough to have only commuted on the ironing boards and am quite used to it for an hour, but when i go to a heritage steam line the seats are splendid and i could retire for a week into them!
Indeed, the difference with older trains is stark.
Trains seats were dreadful in the '50s and early '60s. I remember as a lad sitting in cattle-class compartment coaches with my head pushed forward at an uncomfortable angle by the seat backs, which were vertical rather than tilted back. Trips to Scarborough or Bridlington were, literally, a pain in the neck.
My favourite seats were on the original HST - in fact they are my favourite trains overall. I never saw aircraft seating on those trains (mainly Huntingdon Leeds). Every seat had table space, and a window, and room for big bags behind the seat, and luggage racks that could accommodate more than a newspaper. They were build for long distances, not commutes like most modern trains seem to be.
Hear hear
Trains have certainly become a lot more uncomfortable... personally I would say it's the DfT meddling more than anything else. Just look at the comparison between what GWR did with their own choice of 1st class travel and what the DfT specified for the new trains. We've swapped out comfortable leather armchairs and hot meals, to a solid lump to sit on and feeling lucky if we can even have a hot drink. I travel to London quite regularly from Westbury and the standard class seating is so abhorrently padded and so little reclined that I've had enough 10 minutes into the journey. If I travel to Cornwall I'd rather get a 150 from Taunton to Penzance than get an 800.
Add to that Aeroplane style seats
I used to enjoy train travel. The seats were comfortable and you could watch the scenery, not a wide window pillar. There was legroom. Even the Southern Region commuter trains in the 50s had better seats than todays long distance trains.
If I have to sit in an airline seat, then I would rather go by air, getting there faster and cheaper.
I cannot think of one government department that actually knows how to do anything without making a pig's ear of it. Health, Industry, Defence and probably the worst of the lot- Transport.
It certainly doesn't help with the relevant ministers playing musical chairs between the departments instead of getting a grip on them.
Ministers really should have experience and interest in the departments they are appointed to, when that is the case they are often quite successful.
@GWVillager I believe the British system is to assign non expert ministers. The civil servants already in the department are supposed to be the experts.
@@matthewlongstaff3112The civil servants may have been supposed experts but since they have been running things, the evidence is clear that they haven't a clue. I agree with GWIllager that the Ministers ought to have experience as did Ben Wallace in Defence. The only thing that Grant Shapps was good at was self-importance- he achieved nothing in Transport and has now gone to do the same in Defence. It certainly seems to prove your point about non-expert ministers.
@@GWVillager Meanwhile in my country quite a no. of ministers are ex-generals & admirals, probably because they're often military scholars too & have this been identified by the gov't from early on as having leadership potential, & the results have been mixed
The most uncomfortable seats I've ever sat on!!. Pacers may have had their faults but the seats were comfortable and plenty of windows, with narrow posts.
travelled from Bedford to Brighton on a 700 and could not move very well afterwards. so uncomfortable that we came back to town on a 377 instead. much more comfortable.
It's definitely a cost saving measure. Thinner seats means cheaper seats AND thinner means more can fit in a carriage, increasing capacity without need for more coaches or infrastructure.
I'm sure that was the DfT's mantra - more seats so the MPs won't keep getting the ranting letters from the SE commuters about no seats, and lower cost to save coffers.
For intercity the more seats matter is really from the previous cock up on the capacity of the Cross Country sets - great idea shorter trains but double the number of services - actuality shorter trains and no increase in services - consequence thousands of complaints about overcrowding. Many Intercity trains don't travel approaching capacity - so they could go back to less, but comfortable, seats - and each one with a window .
That certainly could be a factor for an ironing board back, but not for the horizontal bit, as more padding there would just mean you are higher up off the floor, or there is less space between the base of the seat and the floor.
Ironing board seats are like sitting on a wooden church pew.
I think the DfT track record is among the greatest arguments against re nationalisation of the railways.
Yep. Couldn't agree more here. Nice to stumble across another youtuber with no obnoxious editing and not talking down to the viewer. Really respect that. Wish you the best for your growth :)
Thank you very much, I really enjoy your videos!
@@GWVillager :3
I noticed something interesting - there is a mention somewhere of the fact that if you want more seats in a coach, you'll have to basically make them less comfortable. Would that be plausible as well?
That's certainly part of it, seat pitch can affect capacity a surprising amount, though it probably comes under DfT cost-cutting measures (reluctance to pay for longer/more frequent trains etc.).
That's how GWR justified it on their local services. It increases density and capacity on commuter services without needing longer platforms or more frequent trains.
Considering how ticket prices rise above the inflation pretty much everywhere, the benefits of cost saving are going elsewhere
@@fresagrus4490 Mostly, the cost savings were poured into a big hole in the ground in London called Crossrail.
@@Skorpychan more like dumped in other big holes, the pockets of those companies shareholders
I travelled Newark to Venice (4 trains- Azuma to London, Eurostar to Paris, Italian Frecciarossa to Milan and Swiss Railways to Venice) and the most uncomfortable far and away were the Azuma- and these were the only ones where we had paid first class.
That is rather telling.
The exact model of seat used in the IET first class is also used in some European 2nd class regional trains. They are a poor seat for 2nd class and an absolute joke to expect someone to pay a premium for. It is only acceptable as a way of avoiding the even worse abominations in standard class.
The LNWR Desiro trains that ply the Northampton to Birmingham route are the nicest and most comfortable trains to travel on
About a month a go I travelled from Newcastle to Edinburgh (1st class return) on LNER`s Azuma Hitachi trains, I'm sorry to say I thought it was bloody well uncomfortable, actually horrible, give me an old MK3 coach anytime, even MK1.
The old coaches are more efficient
Jon C,
The MK1 seats were comfortable but perhaps not the most ergonomic for your back on long journeys.
Seats in MK2 and MK3 were undoubtedly the pinnacle of comfort, combining orthopaedic design with comfortable upholstery.
The rot set in with class 319 on Thameslink services followed by the Southeastern high speed commuter trains.
Travelling to and from work on an ironing board is one thing but doing the same on GWR an LNER HST replacements is totally crazy, and should be avoided by the public if at all possible.
I am old enough to remember when even some commuter trains had comfortable seats.
MARK 1/2 carriages are now NOT ALLOWED they are not disabled access either HEALTH AND SAFETY also say no get over it
Mark 3's are getting a little old.
Mark 4 best and those are still in somewhat limited service.
Cravens coaches seating lovely
On a lot of routes 6-8 car loco hauled sets have been replaced by 2-3 car DMUs which although they have more cramped seats per coach still have far less seats than the proper comfortable coaches, not to mention the underframe engine noise that you didn't have on loco hauled trains, slight improvement with the GA Stadlers with their little "power pack" car, but even then you're at most two cars away from the noise, even EMUs are noisier now, the other annoying thing now is seats which don't even have windows like the airline seats which are lined up between two windows or the end seats on 800 units with no window at all
The French get it right with their TGV’s two power units with coach’s in between
Good review, thank you. For the new GWR Hitachi sets, DafT had two options: short journey ironing board seats or long journey comfortable ones. Purely to cut costs, and knowing they would rarely be using them, ironing boards were specified. These seats are appalling. Lucky us. High costs, unreliable services and miserable journeys.
Interesting. The Class 800s ("Hitachi trains") are our London trains and I totally endorse your comments. Ironing boards! Also my wife is small and also hates them because her feet nowhere near reach the floor. First class is better if not great. The standard Eurostar and French TGVs I've been on are better, so not EU standards. Just money, I fear.
I used to travel alot on the GWR HST's in first class with the leather almost bucket like seats. They were fantastically comfortable (think they were introduced in 2009?) and the move from those kind of seats to the god awful modern ones on the IET's is absolutley shameful. Certainly it massively reduces my interest in travelling by train, I would generally try to travel by train instead of fly and one of the reasons for choosing was that while the journey was longer it was more comfortable, now that theres no differences between seats on a plane and those on a train it's much harder to tolerate the longer journeys.
I agree
In the Netherlands it's the same story unfortunatly...
I've seen a few photos of Fainsa Sophias in the new Sprinters there, I should like to try them out. I love your videos by the way, I recently found your channel.
yeah but at least you havent got them on long distance trains
Germany too. The seats in the ICE 4 trains are atrocious compared to some old late 20th century intercity cars which are nowadays used for regional services only.
They want people to use trains. The problem is the ticket cost. On the 700s First and Standard I have been told are the same seats. Those can be a little uncomfortable. In general Greater Anglia seats are good. I don’t think there’s much difference as I’ve ridden declassified First Class up in Norfolk. It’s a nice experience not too loud.
The other factor might be is the new regs about train accessibility. Both these automatically level themselves to platform height so it’s not any difference in height. You need a straight platform to benefit this facility. I had a feeling some of the old 365’s when refurbished might have been given worse seats. On those they were nice round topped seats if I’m right but I think they were changed to less comfortable or is it just my imagination.
In Switzerland as well, for the longest time there had been big benches with enough space to have different sitting positions easily, these days in the bombardier twindex for example, the seats are so narrow and not well formed that it gives me back pain so I'm glad when a journey is only 2 hours or so before you can change to another train.
The 377s introduced around 2002 had refits with thinning uncomfortable seats giving way to ironing board thin and hard seats. Bloody awful and way before the 700 introduction.
Upholstery was always the best, kapok and springs and horsehair and moquette. Lovely.
The decline started with the abysmal bus seats on the 313's, I think. Those original seats looked horrendous.
With the Class 800 one of the considerations was weight, they retrofitted diesel engines halfway through the design forcing the entire trains to be dangerously overweight for the chassis, bogies, and couplers. Take 10-20kg off 585 standard and 130 1st class seats, and you've partially sorted the problem.
Also, one the DFT's main criteria were more seats at all costs to keep the commuters happy. They have shorter journeys to take and less need for luggage space. Hence thinner and closer together seats, fewer tables and far too little luggage space for the leisure travellers
The seat demand makes sense for the 700s, but why not add an extra two coaches to the 80Xs? Both the GWML and ECML could accommodate 11 car trains, and that would allow for bike/luggage space as well as extra capacity.
@@GWVillagerMore weight and expense. They actually specified 26m carriages to reduce the number required (the BR Mk3 is 23m). This necessitated making the carriages narrower. The unfeasible weight saving targets were notorious.
I don’t believe it its to do with fire safety if you can get buses and coaches with comfortable seats if the right seat is fitted of course and the fact that 3+2 seating being more of a fire risk due to more people evacuating from such a small area. I think the truth is private companies as well as the DfT under the tory government cheaping out so more money line their pockets.
Travelled on a 150 from Crewe to Piccadilly. I had back pain for a week!
An interesting video - well done!
Until the Department of Transport are removed from any decision making process in the railways, the UK will continue to suffer inner suburban seating on many mainline services.
DfT continually looks to cram in as many passengers as they can even at the price of comfort and leg room (the latter can place long-distance passengers at risk from DVT).
Thameslink units were a DfT decision and not to the specification Southern would have liked (starting with the inflexibilities of a 12-car unit). When compared to a 12-car 377 formation there is less overall seating leading to more standing passengers. At the time of introduction the disabled seating areas (cars 6 & 7) hung off the short platforms at Lancing.
In terms of train seating fires, HMRI took significant steps to address the causal factors following the arson fatality on the 23.15 Caterham to Norwood Junction train at Purley on Friday, 5th July 2002.
The teenage arsonist was caught, sent to trial and sentenced to four years.
A few weeks ago I was travelling from Glasgow on an Avanti West Coast Pendolino. I was delighted to find it was one the refurbished ones. Two and a half hours later I got off the train at Wigan with an extremely numb arse. I think the New Puritans have taken over the civil service who are determined to prevent us from suffering comfort. We'll be sitting on spikes next.
Just not one spike per person, that would be an extravagence.
@@truckerallikatuk “Nathaniel sits on a spike. I sit on Nathaniel” 😉
I've haven't travelled on a Class 700 but I've done a few thousand miles on the class 195s.
Not only do the 195s have a terrible ride quality,but the seats are awful too.
The 2 car Northern 158s have the ironing board seats,but the 3 car 158s retain the MTB seats which I much prefer. However,one thing I notice between the 2 and 3 car 158s is the legroom on a 2 car 158 seems much better compared to the 3 car version.
I'm absolutely convinced that the people who design these new seats have never travelled more than 20 minutes on a train.
It would be interesting to hear from people who have done the London to Aberdeen or Inverness routes on board an Azuma and give an honest opinion to how it compared to the HSTs they replaced.
Anyway great video!
Whilst I haven’t done London to Aberdeen/Inverness, I have done London to Penzance in both HSTs and IETs, and the difference becomes really noticeable after about 2 and a half hours. It becomes almost impossible to stay relaxed past then, you really need to take a brief walk.
If the ride quality is terrible they are probably smashing up the track as well.
Fascinating video. I too have noticed the deterioration in comfort in modern trains. Whilst I could believe your first theory that EU rules ruined them, I don't quite buy this because we have rules on fire resistance on sofas for decades yet it is still easy to find comfortable ones. I do however totally buy your second theory that it is a cost cutting measure because, being the private sector, any cost saved will end up in directors bonuses and shareholders pockets. I do not, by the way, travel by rail very often not because of crap seats but because of the extortionate expense of doing so these days.
@@derektaylor2941 Think the mark 1's were made out of wood and should of been replaced by mark 2's by then more so after Harrow and wieldstone multi train crash.
I worked on seat design for the BR InterCity 70 1st and 2nd class seats in the mid-70's and we were told we couldn't put our own input into the 'comfort' of the seat.
This shape of the support, especially the backs, was ergonomically designed to give the best comfort we were assured, especially over long distances.
The problem with most seats backs then and even today, is that they are too firm in the lower back area, and the headrests are too far back. Suburban stock seats naturally have thinner backs to enable more seats to be crammed in, and are used for shorter journeys. I really enjoy the old spring/horsehair seats in the Mk 1 carriages. The railway companies contract out the design of seats to others, and as a result, get what we see today, obviously designed by students!
Oh wow, I didn’t realise BR designed their own seats.
@@GWVillager A considerable design effort went into BR seat design, mostly at Derby Research centre I believe. A lot of the work was for the APT where the desire was to reduce weight but maintain comfort - and they built a many faceted test seat as shown in the video. The Mk III seat is one of the results.
I’ve been on a class 800 for 5 hours and it’s horrible when you’ve been on it for a while, I really don’t want to know how bad class 700’s are and I hope I never will, it’s still a shame you don’t get the comfort for the price you have paid for a ride on a train hopefully it improves soon!
The ironing board seats were specified by the brainless civil servants at the DFT. I used to enjoy travelling by train on long journeys but as it is so uncomfortable now, I use my car with its comfortable seats
The seats are so bad on the GWR Class 800s, that I've decided that for me it's better to take a bus to London. It may take a few hours more, but it's FAR more comfortable.
Scot rail have those awful ironing board seats on their 156s! Had to experience them for a 4hr train journey from Fort William to Glasgow last April!
156 sets used to have comfortable seating, I hope they haven't changed them to increase density.
Seat comfort is certainly a factor for me, even more so since I did my back in.
I think the real reason is penny pinching and fire regs are a convenient excuse to hide behind.
I went on the Leigh busway a couple of years ago and the seats on those buses were superb. The seats on the bus I got from Atherton to Leigh were also very comfortable. Both way better than any train seat I've experienced for a long time now.
It's one reason I'll be sticking with the car.
The seats on the Vantage buses are indeed fantastic - bus seats generally seem to be improving.
Those hard seats are probably cheaper to manufacture, easier to clean, and they may resist vandalism better. Because the rail companies strive to provide service at the lowest possible cost, it's a no-brainer for them. Next year they may be installing wooden benches.
Azuma put me off travelling with LNER. Seats uncomfortable rock solid decided to opt out use car to go travelling around. Shame LNER bought Azuma’s in. Should’ve kept 125s in as well as keeping some 225s in. Comfort on board both those trains was luxury could just melt in the seats & relax enjoy the view/ride.
The seats are so bad they have driven me back to my car. My back just can't take 3 hours on an 800. Horrendous. First class is an insult. You have all these younger people that won't believe that life was better just 25 years ago or so. We had Hovercraft, Concorde, 125's (doing 135 and even 140mph in service on occasions), we had plush first class with curtains, deep seats and table-cloths with a Pullman service! Many of those aged under 25 years old refuse to believe this even happened! Just look at the old first class in the pictures in this video - enough said! Oh and then you get the cretins that say "due to fire safety regulations...." Nonsense! Coil springs are not illegal and no train ever caught fire due to the comfort of the seats. We have brainwashed ourselves into a false reality (like so much of society in 2023). There's always an excuse why things need to be uncomfortable, slower, less civilised and so on. Tired of people that have no competence or standards. Oh, and no-one should be thinking we can't do something because 'it will make it harder to join the EU'. Liberty is not for sale. Any cretin that wants to join the EU needs a hard history lesson that extends beyond 40 years. Britain has always stood up and had to do the hard lifting in Europe so I won't hear such nonsense. If democracy scares you, live in the EU, not the UK.
and back then you could smoke but the seats were not always going up in flames
Scotrail refurbished their Class 156s a couple of years ago and replaced their relatively comfy British Rail-era seats with the same modern ironing boards used in the Class 385s. These seats may be tolerable on short commutes, but on the long rural routes served by the Super Sprinters, they are really unsuitable. And the seats are mounted higher than the IC70s, meaning the legroom under the table is reduced. It's a substantial downgrade.
And then they have the nerve to charge a supplement to go on the 153s, having very cynically fitted better seats 💺
Given the penchant for airline seating could it be that reducing seat padding across an entire carriage on a class 800 might mean you could fit in 4 more punters ??
I used the GWR service from Hereford to Paddington for many years. The latest Hitachi trains look drab, inside and out. The seats are dreadful. So much so, that I now use National Express taking a short train journey to nearest departure point. Czech trains in both classes are extremely comfortable. It can be done.
Hideously uncomfortable!? An under-statement I would not have believed until my buttocks endured four and a half hours of travel torture from Paddington to Truro on a seat in one of GWR's new inter-city trains!
Great video, UA-cam recommendations on point today! Subscribed 😁🚆✨
Many moons ago, following a boozy weekend in Gloucester, I had the good fortune to spy a first class corridor coach downgraded to second class. I found an empty compartment, pulled down the blinds and caught up on my sleep undisturbed except by the guard checking tickets.
The new first class seats on ScotRail Inter7City trains are incredibly comfortable, they’re like arm chairs!
They're great, they were installed in GWR days and are probably the best looking seats of recent years.
I stopped going by train because of the awful seats.
A great example of newer trains being more uncomfortable is on the electrostars. Older electrostars such as class 377s have some of the most comfortable seats on any British train, but newer variants such as the 387 have the ironing board design, which is probably the most uncomfortable train seat in the UK. This came even before the 700 which named them the ironing board seat.
Give me a Mark One Intercity coach, like those that went to Norwich until the early 90's any day. Squashy. Comfy and good for a snooze.
Or a Class 205 DEMU.
It's the bizarre politics we have in this country. Government has its vanity projects, but the passenger still has to suffer. Moreover, government still wields the austerity stick & is still trying desperately to put people off traveling, through extortionate fares & now through design.
the situation with train seats is just ridiculous on the newer trains
iron boards...
i dont even understand why every TOC is obsessed with rubbish seats either. Its not that hard to design right.
although i think it is getting better. The seats on the new Lumo trains and the pendolino refurbishment are actually okay.
@@cameronallan5624 The TOC's probably have little say in the matter. The mandarins of the DfT dictate most things to do with train design maybe apart from paintwork.
ironing board seats make pacer's bus benches look good.
on what planet are millions of commuters or rail travelers going to change options overnight because of hernia inducing seats? Comfort IS important, but getting to where you need to go is clearly the ONLY reason most people use transport. Saying people don't need comfortable seats is as unforgivable as saying it doesn't matter if people eat gruel every day of their life. These things matter. Stop breaking balls and backs and install a decent seat already.
The problem is not so much the thin foam as the profile. Hard wooden seats can be comfortable if they are correctly shaped. This information was all researched in the 1950s.
Incidentally, seats designed to be placed back to back ie in facing bays, can be made lighter in weight as they do not need such substantial frames. You also gain the luggage space between seat backs.
The designers are lazy and incompetent. It is too much effort for them to look up the information.
This trend is also being seen in commercial aviation seating and not just on the low-cost carriers.
It costs no more to make an ironing board seat comfortable. The trouble is due to the profile. The designers are lazy and incompetent. The information has been available since the 1950s, following research which was done then.
I actually think the seats on local buses in the uk are better than the train seats at least they have actually decent cushioning and sometimes a head rest, usb charging and even free WiFi!!! Its the one reason why i stopped riding the trains and instead get the bus when i just want to go from one place to another obviously for longer trips i still use the train
I went on the Leigh busway a couple of years ago and the seats on those buses were superb. The seats on the bus I got from Atherton to Leigh were also very comfortable. Both way better than any train seat I've experienced recently.
The newer seats probably take up less room , allowing more paying bums on seats per carriage, in the same way in which budget airlines have cattle class seating.
I wonder if someone did a calculation as to average seat/time occupancy in their design, in the same way in which some seats in public buildings are designed to discourage long term occupants. Fine on local train services but not on long haul.
much of LT's CO/CP sub-surface stock was of an early phase and had queerly tall backings to their forward/backward seats for a subway, and their big-ass seat cushions were grand to which the depths must've had measured at least one foot...but the funniest was how ABOMINABLY dusty they'd become: thrashing the seat merely once brought about quite a billow of THICK dust...they were classy...
The old Metropolitan line stock,the A class, were the most comfortable rolling stock on the Underground. Many of the current trains are hideously uncomfortable.
Bombardier's first ever train seating used to have its seats and backrests made into clothed padding, but vandals had taken to spinning them into flying frisbees: ua-cam.com/video/ysMLOnZQF7I/v-deo.html
thanks so much! I'm a Brit living in France where trains are comfortable and fast.
I haven't been back to Devon ( my home county) for a vey long time and am now dreading visiting by the discomfort of train seats now..I have an arthritic lower back....I'm wondering what to do ..should I travel by coach or abandon travelling to the UK completely
If you go to Devon, I assume you'll take the Brittany Ferry straight to Plymouth? When travelling about in Britain, most older trains are still comfortable, so I wouldn't worry too much, but, if you do get a modern train, first class can be much better. Maybe bring a cushion as well?
After one attempt I no longer travel beyond Plymouth on GWR from London. It's already bad enough after two hours. I feel operators thought they didn't have to care as services were so oversubscribed but now its changed and they need to offer comfort if they want people to come back.
I remember going to york with TPE ended up getting a class 185 there and a 802 back and oh my god I am going to avoid the 802 at all costs the seats were horroble whereas the older 185s seats were bliss in comparison I could almost fall asleep in the 185.
They're not amazing, and the 185s are nice enough to provide a real step up as you say.
A very good commentary on this subject. I think the worst aspect of these seats is the bolt upright angle. If they were more reclined, they would be more tolerable. I find there is plenty of legroom (on class 800) so this could be done without reducing capacity or affecting fire resistance. I don't mind airline style seating. If you travel alone, it is better than having to stare at strangers or play footsy with them! The class 800's are just awful trains with a noisy, rough ride and noisy underfloor engines and loud whining traction motors. I suspect we bought the cheapest and it shows! As a leisure traveller, I am now starting to drive trips that I might have used the train for because I just can't stand the discomfort.
I agree, the seats applied to the refurbished 390s are actually reasonably comfortable thanks to their recline.
Curiously, the 800s are actually rather expensive trains, which is really disappointing when you consider how quickly the GWR sets have aged and the poor quality of many aspects.
To recreate the best seat available, customers could take their own cushions for improved comfort. No... hang on that would detract from the fire-safety of the vehicle. Maybe the next step in the 'conditions of carriage' would be that all customers should wear fire-proof clothing, conforming to BS EN ISO 11612:2015. Passengers failing to comply will be denied boarding, refunds not available. Daft, isn't it! 🤪🤪🤪
I think the BR mark 3 was where passenger comfort reached its summit. Quiet, airconditioned, good ride quality, and seats that were fit for a long journey - all in one coach. Having said that I didn't find the TPE 80x that I went on uncomfortable, but it was a big step down from a mark 3 - the traction motor and engine noise was surprisingly high.
The thing that prohibits me enjoying the Mk 3s is how awfully squeaky they are. It's a shame as they are otherwise fantastic.
Coaches with separate units providing power are better for intercity work than railcars
I'll take an old MK1,2,3 over the new ironing boards anyday or my car!! Shame when a 50+ year old coach on a preservation line is far more comfortable than a brand new one. And I'd take a decent seat over any euro- interoperability any day.
when greater anglia got rid of the class 90 / mk3 / ic70 I handed in my ticket and stopped commuting. I knew it was game over. and it was.
It’s bizarre that the S8 trains on the metropolitan that is designed for short commuter runs is more comfortable than the main line seats of the Chiltern.
Excellent presentation; and right too
Very good indeed, thanks. I think the cost-cutting zealots at the DfT are largely to blame. Regarding EU standards, the UK government is currently pushing through Parliament a bill to abolish all EU regulations after 31st December 2023. This will delight Brexit-voters as the seats will no longer be forced to comply with EU fire and safety standards. Therefore we should hope to have more comfortable and softer seats from 2024 when these tiresome EU regulations have been, well, bonfired!
I do hope that the relaxation of regulations will improve comfort, though most of the new fleets have already entered service.
@@GWVillager Are you sure? There are also fire standards that are imposed by Insurance Companies .
Such a good video!
It's not only train seats. You can throw in airline seats as well.The GWR IET seats are used in Germany on commuter trains, not intercity longhaul.
It's all about cost now not passenger comfort.
Airline seating on trains should be scrapped! They’re totally unacceptable, as are all seating on 700s and 800s. It’s as if passengers are being deliberately put off travelling by train. Fire regulations are just a lame excuse. The DfT doesn’t care and has no idea. How often does a fire happen on a train? Very very rarely! If I was Manager of a TOC I’d insist on quality seating on all my trains.
Whilst they are nowhere near as bad as later trains, i think that seat comfort started to go downhill in the 1990s, with the advent of the Class 158 Sprinter and the Mark 4 coaches used on the ECML electric trains. Although I would happily go back to them now.
“If there was a fire, passengers could easily be evacuated to another coach.” People riding in 153s = 🔥
Not to mention 3+2 seat arrangements which are still being fitted to new trains despite them not increasing real capacity, decreasing seat comfort and increasing journey times.
3+2 is indeed inadequate.
@@GWVillager I think they're just used so they can say look how many more seats we have in our new trains, not actually caring that basically no one uses the middle seat. It's cheaper to lie about added capacity rather than add another coach or run a couple more peak trains to actually solve the issue.
Used to take a GWR train for 20 mins each day and would sometimes end up numb. Awful
Everything gone in reverse 🙄
Having traveled on many hundreds of trains throughout Europe, I can confidently say it's nothing to do with eu regulations and everything to do with privatisation.
Most eu countries still own their railways in full or in majority shareholding
As a result the governments shove lots of money into them, something that the corrupt private rail operators of the UK have no cause to do.
Combined with the UK govt attitude against any form of reinvestment and voila you get the ironing board.
So it isn't just me after all. I travel fairly often ( strikes permitting) between Penzance and a station just outside Bristol, usually GWR . I remember when new trains came in and was initially quite excited to see it was a ' new' train . ...( Sorry but that's the extent of my knowledge of detail). I soon changed my mind as after five hours ish I was suffering from numb bum . Nowadays I don't even get the chance to stroll to the buffet coach to ease things. Oh I miss buffet coaches. Anyway thanks for giving me the opportunity to understand why my journey is so uncomfortable. 😕
My line was moved from 150/156/158/185/180 to 319/350 to 331/397 and let me tell you the seats on the 331s are dreadful. They were way worse since they’ve switched to moquette seating but they are still awful. They have ironing boards like the rest of modern trains but they’re so bad even the sideways seats are more comfortable than them and they aren’t even full seats
I recently spent 6 hours on a French Corail coach from the 1970s, which are slowly vanishing from the SNCF... which is a pity, as it was the most comfortable train seat I've ever sat in, including the class 3 and class 5 British ones. Just to prove that the French aren't geniuses, the RER train I took to get on that intercite service had seats that felt just as bad as the class 800s (or the "refurbished" castle sets) GWR have... those poor Castle sets, they ruined them with concrete seat pads.
RER trains are mostly short-distance trains, you will rarely spend more that 1 hour in a RER while the class 800s is a long distance train. I think it is more adequate to compare the class 800s to the TGVs. The latters are far more confortable, even the recent ones (though it is not very difficult to be more confortable than the class 800s). Besides that I agree with you, Corail coaches are amazing, and sadly they begin to disappear, though SNCF had this great idea to reuse them as "ouigo vitesse classique'' trains, which are basically low-cost trains that are not very fast (''vitesse classique'' literraly means ''classic speed'') or expensive but very confortable.
Seat designers don't travel in their seats.
Or rather, seat design approvers don't travel in those seats. They don't care.
As someone who started with British Rail way back in 1987 and of course with the protected free travel benefits, I have encountered many, many types of seats. I cannot understand why so called 'ergonomic seats' cause so much pain when they are supposed to be comfortable.
I do remember travelling on a modern (for its time), Inter City Swiss train back in the late 90s and the Std seat was rock hard, no padding at all. The old Norwegian trains were lovely and the Finnish Stds were like Pullmans, reclining and complete with antimaccasers.
As for the 800s over here, I haven't experienced Std but the 1st was ok and rather like the SWT Disastros before SWR decided to make them 2+2 bolt upright and non reclining. Std is better.
Today I was on a XC HST and a northern 195 and mk3 coach seats are more comfortable but a 195 are still comfortable
Considering Thameslink's 700s call at both Luton and Gatwick airports they are shit for the job Seats are tiny. I'm not particularly tall, about 5"10 and I have no leg room.
was on amtrak recently and the seats are quite comfortable
The seats on the Amfleet and Super/Viewliners are amazing, though the new Venture coaches seem a little less palatial. Another comment suggested this may be down to wheelchair accessibility requirements.
@@GWVillager yeah it is. At least in their width. The other issue is that you can’t recline. But that is because the tray tables are now much better. Since they don’t have any venture coaches on the long distance routes yet I guess it is yet to be seen how they will deal with this.
Lol no,
With Amtrak Joe in the White House, let's hope Amtrak remains comfortable.
Heard only thing the americans can actually do well when it comes to trains is seating.
And considering some services are travelling for multiple days it does make sense.
08:33 even just my usual short 15 minute hop on them is enough to make me dislike them.....
German ICE and RE trains of DB have pretty uncomfortable sliding seats with no option to recline. And the seats are hard too.
I find DB seats to be hit and miss. Some are great, whereas others are poor, even amongst Dosto.
Apart from seats , what about on train catering ? something to look into as these days with frozen food and micro wave ovens should be a lot better than what we get offered today.
I once went on a quality management lecture by a chap who designed seats for BR. He said the main quality passenger interface are the passengers' bums. He said the seat density rule of thumb was "16 inches per bum, 16 bums per ton" was applied but people were getting fatter!
16 inches!? That seems remarkably deep for a seat cushion.
@@GWVillager I assume he was referring to bum width.
I've had the unfortunate experience with faisna seat on scotrail dmu 156 sets
The funniest part of this, is ht eexamption of Ironing Boards to First Class seats. I think this decline in seats comfort is all about money to maintain them and create extra space for more seats rows. Safety sounds more like an excuse that actually something functional regarding to ironing boards.
Could you make a video on your opinions of the London Underground ? Maybe comparing the lines to each other
I'm not too clued up on the Tube in all honesty, but it's possible I'll talk about in the future.
Undergoing? I honestly kinda like that lol
@@georgedowns4034 autocorrect
Best seats are on the Bakerloo line, maybe 30 years old but very much more confortable than the ironing board seating on Crossrail and Thameslink. I dislike opposing seats, many uncouth passengers rest their filthy boots on the opposing seat, not exclusively a male preoccupation. I always opt for the airline style seats, hoping that they are slightly cleaner. Even Eurostar is uncomfortable.
@Jean Jacques crossrail do not have ironing board seats. Granted they are not particularly comfortable, but they're not that bad
what are the seats on the iet’s and 197’s called?
The Fainsa Sophia