THIS was exactly what I was looking for! We recently did a simple switch disconnect/reconnect but I was trying to wire the traditional way but as it turns out, we were dealing with a Dead End 3-way. totally confused me. We did finally figure it out but this explains so well why 99% of 3-way wiring videos out there do not show dead end wiring. THANKS! I needed this!
The Code Time segment really sets this channel apart. I feel your channel is very underrated and want to say thank you for inspiring me in part to persue this career!
Can I double thumb up this vid? It took me an hour to figure out a repair on a dead end threeway last month. One of the switches had died, but seeing that hot neutral in the light box with no ID tape on it left me so confused until I drew it out on the table. Your video makes it so clear so quickly. Great info!
I was going nuts trying to figure out how to replace a three way switch setup in my house. It didn’t make sense looking at how the existing wiring was. Until I found this video! apparently it was a “cali” three-way. Thanks!
BINGO!! It was a "Chicago 3-way" design. While merely replacing an old 1920s porcelain 3-way in a friend's 1905 house, I blew 4 Edison base fuses. What the...? So, I had to run a wire from a water pipe to determine what wires were hots or neutrals using my Wiggy. Yes, there was a neutral (!!??) on the switch. NOW I KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON THERE. "Chicago 3-way." Thank you so much for this tutorial. Neither of those systems was taught in my apprenticeship.
I only see this NEC 2020 "neutral at switch boxes" applying to completely new switch circuits as in a rewire or new construction. As a practice, I try to always (especially in residential) have my switch legs go up to a fixture outlet from a wired switch box rather than than down. and this practice was influenced from my early electrical maintenance days (mostly service work), whereas I hated having to fool with a light fixture to troubleshoot a problem such as bad splices. Another great video for sure...
Dude, thank you SO much for this! The way you've animated this, and how you've illustrated the connections are SO helpful. The physical connections and interactions between the components are what I have struggled with, and this helps me visualize it better than I ever have. More, please!
Great video. You just helped me solve a problem I was working on today with two dead end 3 way switches that control the garage light from the kitchen door and garage door. Saved me the trouble of having to call for help. Update - Section 404.2c was changed in 2020 and now prohibits a "dead end" three-way in a remodel if there is no finish on the wall and the wire is readily accessable and can be changed. I ran into this on my remodel when I exposed an old dead end three-way and had to add a neutral. The reason for this is that many modern "smart" switches require a neutral. If the neutral isn't used, it is capped for future use. I'm also having to upgrade some single pole switches to 14/3 wire because the home runs are to the junction box for the light. Again, the unused neutral is capped for future use.
You just solved a 29-year mystery in my world. It was that long ago that I was unable to figure out the wiring of a 3-way switched light in an old house retrofit with K&T (had been gas lit) that had then been plastered-over. For the love of God nor money could I figure this thing out. Of course, I could not see the wiring paths behind the walls and all wires were the same color black. It was, I see now, a Chicago/Carter method. Thank you.
When I was a kid, my father replaced a 3-way switch, and as soon as we flipped the switch, it blew the fuse! Huh? Well, it was (as I now know) a Carter 3-way, and the replacement switch was a mercury switch, and flipping the switch momentarily connected all three terminals, shorting the power, and blowing the fuse! Minneapolis, not too far from Chicago :)
im a journeyman electrician , i know this stuff but for some reason i cannot stop watching your videos, thank you for the videos your doing keep up the great work
IS NEC certified same as Journeyman? Taking exam at your local village or other local jurisdiction but it just states licensed electrical contractor not journeyman. So journeyman is specifically for union electricians?
@@vlad1889 Nope, where I live there is 4 classes of electricians, licensed by our state, union or not. Class A: Master Class B: Journeyman Class C: Systems Contractor Class D: Systems Technician I currently hold a Class A and B licenses, since for some reason your not actually allowed to do electrical work with s Class A. Weird huh?
Ok, so terminology is different as I’m a licensed Electrician in both Australia and UK. But the first 3 way and the dead end 3 way is generally what we would use… the dead end is wired slightly differently but the principle is the same. Enjoying your vids and the different words we use.
Would you mind recommending some electrical channels similar to this from one of those countries? I'm interested on learning more about how things are wired in a 240v system.
Here's a future video idea: How to do a re-wire or replace a home-run most efficiently with minimum amount of drywall damage. Any tips and tricks you've learned over the years that would be helpful to new guys getting into the field. Thanks.
Depends on what is above or below and where you can fish from. Sometimes you have to go up over and down. I worked in a split level that had the walls been open would take 50 ft of wire from the panel to new AC. Because we had to drill and fish up over and down it took almost a full roll of 10/3 NM
I can tell you that re-wiring without opening the walls uses a whole lot more wire. You can't do it efficiently without opening up walls. If you don't open walls you use lots of junction boxes in the basement and attic, and a lot of dead end runs. But that is the trade off for not damaging original plaster in an 1890 house. First floor isn't as bad if you have a basement, not nearly as much wasted wire going from underneath to wall outlets. Going up to the attic, then dropping down the wall for each receptacle on the second floor burns through wire pretty quick though.
An old electrician who wired many California three way circuits explained it to me like this. On a three way switch you have a common and two throws, not a common and two travelers. The wires are travelers not the terminals. A traveler is a wire that connects two switches together and no matter how many boxes that wire goes through nothing else gets connected to it. A conventional three way (straight, loop, dead end) has two travelers. A California has one traveler between the commons, nothing else is connected to that wire. While the throws are wired together too, those conductors are not travelers because in every box they go through, one is a hot and the other is a switch leg. In a Carter there is no traveler. Each switch gets hot and neutral on its throws and the lamp is wired between the commons. It’s illegal because it can break the neutral leaving both sides of the lamp shell hot, with the lamp being off. The benefit of the California is when a three way is needed to control a string of lights, it saves a conductor in the run compared to a conventional three way. It’s totally legal under 404.2 because it only breaks the hot. Save yourself some wire, use the California when you have multiple loads on a three way.
Love your video and have come back several times to watch the variations. One variation of the three-way switch I’m having a really hard time finding is one where the power comes into the switchbox, and then both the three wire to the other switch, and the two wire to the lights come out of that same box. Might be a great video for someone as I can’t find it anywhere
What you're describing is the dead end three way, actually a commonly used variation. Technically still a code compliant 3-way since the box with the incoming power has an available neutral. Especially useful in renovations where you need to convert a single pole switch into a pair of 3 ways with minimal work.
Totally thought this was gonna be another repeat video. BUT It wasn't that's awesome because I didn't know about the Chicago 3 ways or the Cali 3 way really except that Kelly 3 ways were dead in 3 ways as well. Thanks for the knowledge dude and nice animations.
Can be especially confusing for traveling electricians because often local jurisdictions have stricter requirements than the NEC and while one county for example, may allow dead end three ways, the next county may not, or they may allow 14-4 or two runs of 14-2 so as to have a neutral at all switch boxes, for example.
Lol did it take you some time to figure out what they had running? If so how long. Luckily I have personally never ran into a Chicago/carter 3 way, I have only heard of them and apparently they have been illegally installed decades after they became illegal in the mid 1920s. A fairly common application, was on older farms , and homes in rural areas, where you had a home, a yardlight and an outbuilding, and some receptacles in the outbuilding that are to remain constant hot, and 3 way switches in the home and outbuilding controlled the yardlight using only 3 wires instead of four with or without ground.
Thank you man. I’m in vocation school right now and was really stumped on the dead end. My instructor kinda just told me to figure it out as he sees it as a better alternative of learning as hik showing us.
I really learn a lot from your vids and appreciate your producing them. Great explanation of three ways. Another way to wire a dead end 3-way and have a constant hot and neutral in the leg box is using 12-2-2 or 14-2-2. Method: From the line-side, send the hot (black) to the load (black screw) of the leg switch. Use the red and red/white conductors for travelers and cap off the neutral (for future). In the line-side box, connect the light's black wire (load) to the load post (black screw) and splice your neutrals there. We had to do this where we had a huge barring post in the way making other paths difficult.
try living on the east coast especially New england where K&T is still widely present i ran into a cple of times. now word is out to call me when modern bulbs are burning up or just not working lol (im not a professional or licensed but i get a lot of calls from some asking to dble chk for a carter system lol
Thank you Dustin! I'm just a DIYer but had a situation where I had a misbehaving 3 way setup. Turned out to be a miswired dead end 3 way. I suspect it has never worked correctly for the 10 years since the house was built.
The 'Dead End 3-Way' is what I would use based on my 45 years in electronics, though I would run the 14/3 red & black from the travelers on the first hot switch plus the neutral straight into the ceiling box, then strip off the outer jacket, cut the white wire and fasten it onto the shell screw, then put black tape onto the other end of the white and connect it to the screw hooked to the bottom light socket contact. Then I would continue the cable over to the other 3-way switch, and hook red and black to the travelers, and white to common with a black tape band added. The down side is pulling the wire all the way through the box. BUT, I know the way we would do things in electronics does not always satisfy code, though it would save on wire nuts and wire. Thanks for your informative videos. I learned a bunch of this stuff from my dad a long time ago, but he went to trade school to be an electrician in the 1930s. Much has changed!
Wonder if your dad learned the carter 3 way method, because it allowed power on both ends of a three way using 3 wires instead of 4 not counting the ground, and the economic hardships of the time forced many people to get creative and make do with the least amount of material. Actually ran across a carter 3 way a little while back on a farm with a yardlight between the house and barn with a single conductor running from the house and barn to the light pole, controlled by 3 way switches from different panels. House and barn were built c. 1910 and got electricity in the late 40s.
Goddamn dead end 3-ways finally just clilcked for me. Describing it as just bringing the switch leg over to the 2nd box via the white wire in a 3-wire cable makes so much more sense than any other way it's been explained to me. Thank you!
Congrats, I finally understand it when I used my red and whites as Travelers instead of red and black. For some reason, Black wires always going to common side of switch always made more sense to me rather than using the white as a common.
Wired up a huge house that had 5 seperate doors leading in the place. Had several hallways that criss crossed another hallway. Had at least 14 three way switches and maybe 6 four way switches. Sparky working with me never wired in a 4 way switch and screwed up wiring them. As long as you are using 2 NM cables for each 3 or 4 way very easy to wire them. Liked to put a piece of black tape on wire that feed switches.
Very Cool and detaied information i appricciate it. the dead end method you showed at the end of the video looks like the one i used before I once did a 3 way setup to control some recessed lights in my bedroom to control from 2 spots.😎
Thank you. I repaired a 3-way in my folks home years ago. I had to diagram it out to do the repair. This video really helped. Also, thanks for the code discussion. I started studying AC circuits and the code as a graduate student when an electrician told me 240 single phase was the same as 208 3-phase. Even as a professor, I get confused by the words in the NEC. So do the electricians and inspectors. Thanks again.
that's what makes our American system so good, 240 3 wire is a single phase Edison type circuit, and used in mostly residential, and 208 is two circuits of a three phase delta boat sharing a neutral, electricity can flow more freely through our grid without big differences in voltage, they are the same in regards to the equipment you are running, but they are very different in a lot of other ways. 208 in a three-phase wye system is a single pole stinger leg.
Sending this to my Father-in-Law. The previous owner of his place had some hack install a "three way" circuit in the living room, one switch at the front door and one at the kitchen. Unfortunately, it's only 14/2 throughout and uses single-throw switches. Dude got it right in that both switches WILL turn the light off... but if you turn it off at the front door, the kitchen switch won't work. If you turn it off at the kitchen, then the front door doesn't work. The hack just put two switches in series, then installed a ceiling fan with a pull switch, which is what my in-laws end up using. It pains me greatly and I end up walking around in the dark rather than dick with it. I'm dreading replacing that mess because my Father-in-Law thinks the attic is unsafe and hasn't agreed to let me look at it yet.
This was very informative. I can't say I have seen the Chicago or California 3 way locally. But the one I didn't see is the hybrid 3 way. I use it mostly for entry halls. But to save that additional 2 wire switched leg, we run 3 wire from a switch box with power to say an entry chandelier box, then 3 wire back down making a dead end on the other side of the hall. Neutral comes from the power switch box. Switch leg is the common at the dead end. And yes you have to change the color of the travelers in the ceiling box to avoid having two white wires at the fixture.
I think this is what I have in my house.I have a foyer light with stairs. switch at bottom and switch at top. The bottom switch has a common/hot, neutral and two "travelers". the top switch has only one traveler and one neutral (coming from wire nut with 3 or 4 other white wires going who knows where). Im trying to wire up a smart switch but cannot get the top switch to work. Any ideas? and yes, I am not an electrician.
@@jleslie246 if there multiple neutrals in the box at the top of the stairs that tells me there at one point was a pig tail coming from the "hots" in that same box to feed the circuit. This is more akin to the California 3 way described in the video. In older homes a neutral is a neutral to older electricians. Neutral and switched leg comes from the bottom of the stairs and you have a black and white pair of "travelers" at the top of the stairs and a hot wire in the switch at the top is the common.
If you're wondering where how power gets to the switched leg, it's the travelers, all the switch does is alternate between the two travelers as paths. Commons are source and load.
@@samuelcrossland1101 the only wires connected at the top of the stairs are the traveler and neutral. it worked with the old switch but the new smart switch i put in at the bottom wont work with the top switch connected.
I just came across a California three way replacing a light switch in my house and I didn’t understand how three ways worked until I watched your video thanks for explaining how they work
I really appreciate your explanations as you drew these diagrams. I encountered a situation where whoever wired this house ran the load and neutral wires from the light into Switch A, and connected the incoming hot line to the white wire along with the travelers, essentially bypassing Switch A to run the power directly to Switch B. This configuration was not represented in any of the standard wiring diagrams I was able to find, but your drawings in combination with some voltage and continuity tests (plus lots of head scratching) revealed the situation....and I was able to fix the 3 way circuit in my dining and add a functional dimmer. Thanks!!!!
Perfect! The dead-end 3-way is just what I had been searching for. I want to convert a switch inside the attached garage into a 3-way with the second switch on the other side of the wall that has a pilot light so I can tell if the garage light is on or not without opening the door. Wiring the pilot into the dead-end shouldn't be a problem? Thanks for the video.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Just working on my house today, moving switches and ran into a Chicago 3way. It was kicking my butt. But after watching this video it went back together as you described. 3 way back up and working.
Hey Dustin. As a Canadian studying the electrical trade in our code books (CEC 2018 24th edition) Section 4-022-2 states that a Neutral conductor is required in every switch box. It reads as "The identified conductor shall be installed at each location of a manual or automatic control device for the control of permanently installed luminaires at a branch circuit outlet."
I recently did a kitchen/house remodel. I ended up scrapping all my 3 way switches. I had three 3-way (kitchen, hallway, & stairs) switches and replaced them with the Lutron smart switches. I know you are a electrician and it is less profitable for you to install wireless switches. But these Lutron Caseta switches/dimmers are legit. I even convert a existing 3 way situation into 4-ways by simply adding the wireless receivers. I have also convert the living room and family room single pole switches into 3 way Lutron dimmers. The great thing about the Lutron line is that the switches do not require neutral wire which mean you can easily upgrade your older houses into modern smart homes.
The animations were helpful. Finding out a variation of a dead end 3 way is okay for now was helpful. Mine had the travelers go like normal and the hot travel from the power source to the dead end through the white wire on the 12/3. The other switch common went to the light.
On the dead ends, I always did the white and red for the travelers and kept the black for the switch leg. I always stripped my common for the other people working on the finish. You need to show the fed at light with 2 dead ends, very useful in an old work situation.
Excellent Dustin! I like your emphasis on code. As often happens, ignore the code until the house burns down or worse a demise, and then remorse, "if only I had followed the code"
basically, if you are running Romex, then the neutral needs to be in the outlet box. If it's EMT, and you can add it later then you don't have to run it; it can be added later if it's needed. This is basically why, in Oklahoma, they stopped letting us use the white wire to send a switch leg to the other 3 way and mark it with some red tape to identify it as hot. As an apprentice in open shop, I worked with a Journeyman that liked to use the white wire in a 12/3 to send the switch leg to the other side. He argued it uses less wire and saved on overhead. People were calling that a California 3 way for years until we had an electrician from California come along and tell some people that this wasn't a California 3 way. This is the first time I ever seen someone describe a California 3 way, and it is definitely different from what Journey were calling one back then. I have never seen the Carter 3 way but that looks kind of sketchy! I wonder who dreamed that up?
One easy way if troubleshooting a 3-way on a service call and KNOW it is the issue…..undo all wires and rewire; find easier then trying to spend the time searching and looking and testing everything (and yeah, might end up doing anyway), but undoing all the wiring and doing over tends to be fastest and able to “see” what’s happening, imo. Everyone does service calls diff, so, this might work great for me etc…so, everyone has there techniques and steps for dealing with troubleshooting service calls😉 Cheers✌🏻
@@Aepek When you say undo all the wires and re-wire, do you mean re landing the correct wires where they're actually supposed to go? I'm a little confused about what you mean here.
I encountered this Cali 3-way crap on my 70s house in the Dallas area. They apparantly didn't want to spring for 12/3 cable, so they used 12/2 everywhere. Tied to a separate circuit's neutral & that's how I discovered it. Had the hallway circuit on for extra light, while working on a bedroom circuit--breaker switched off and confirmed. Unwired the neutral bundle in the bedroom switch box and got bit & hallway light turned off. Go switch off that circuit and open up the hallway boxes to find this mess. So my simple bedroom switch replacement turned into a run to the hardware store to buy some 12/3 and fix that crap. I checked the other 3-way setup for the garage & yep, same crap.
I have this same setup in my early '80s house in the Houston area. They actually daisy chained the separate circuit's neutral so that the outside light hot used the kitchen neutral, the kitchen hot used the dining room neutral, and the dining room hot used the stairway neutral. Is this just a version of the California 3-way, or would this qualify as a different type of setup?
Hey Dustin, one thing you mentioned parenthetically was the dubious use of #6 and smaller white conductor used instead as an ungrounded circuit conductor, and that doing so was not compliant, but that most AHJs would not cite this as a violation. Just a reminder that cable assemblies are discussed in Article 200.6 and even white wires #6 and smaller may be re-purposed as ungrounded circuit conductors by way of phase tape or other effective means. For cable assemblies, there is no code violation.
Man, I remember the days when it first started as an apprentice doing residential electrical work and I would always come across these and the California version as well. A lot of exciting 💥moments for me back then😅.
Up here in Canada I've seen 3 ways done a different way. You use 4 wire cable, red, black, white and ground. You run such a wire from the wall switch up into the ceiling light fixture and then down to the other wall switch. You can bring a hot 3 wire into any of the 3 boxes to power the circuit with with slight variations. I'll use an example of running the hot wire into one of the switches. You connect the hot black wire to the common pole. You then connect the black and red from the 4 wire to the other two poles. In the light fixture box you connect the black and red so they run on to the other switch. At the end switch you connect to black and red to the same poles as the first fixture and the white wire running back to the box to the common pole. This makes the white running back to the light a hot wire, mark it with black tape at both ends. Now just connect the hot white to the base connection of the bulb and the white going back to the start to the neutral side. At the first switch connect the white from the 4 wire to the white 3 wire power in line. And of course all the ground wires in all boxes are connected together. There's a bit of variation you can figure out yourself when the hot 3 wire is brought into the light fixture box in the ceiling. This set up seems to make it simpler and easier to wire 3 ways. There's no mystery 3 wire running in the walls along a different path. Overall it reduces wire costs and stringing for most jobs. It's also a lot easier to fish a single wire in a repair or retrofit scenario in a finished home. I notice now there is no neutral in the last box which isn't current code. If I had to install a smart switch in an existing box without a white neutral I would connect the neutral pole to the bare copper ground wire. The electronics in the switch don't return juice down the neutral. They just need it as a reference ground voltage. The ground wire should serve. Not sure if this acceptable under code??? It should be safe if the smart switch is made properly. I've seen electricians do this back in the day for old 240 volt electric stove circuits that didn't have a bare ground wire. They would connect the newer stove's ground wire to the white neutral going back to the panel. As we all know the ground and white neutral eventually connect to the same piece of metal in the panel. All the neutrals and grounds are electrically continuous, connected, in a home. And you'd likely get a better ground voltage reference from the bare copper wire than a neutral which could get thrown off by juice inputs elsewhere along the neutral circuit. I think the makers of such switches made an unnecessary mistake in choosing the neutral instead of the bare ground for a reference ground voltage. Or perhaps to accommodate older wiring with no bare ground wire. Or maybe I misunderstand the need for a neutral in smart switches. I would think the bare ground would be preferable when available. Somebody should check into this, see if technically the bare ground is ok and safe to use and the makers say it fits with their design intent. This would make meeting code requirements easier and cheaper Just a note of caution here when using fixtures and switches made in or for Canada. Canada is bilingual, French and English. As a result laws require labeling in both languages. That creates a mistake that's easy to make. In French white is spelled "blanc". If you're not paying attention or in poor lighting it's very easy to mistake the "blanc" label on components for "black". You'll connect the hot wire to the wrong pole. Heads up on this eh! I've seen some weird things the text books don't describe in AC wiring and I've come to believe there is very little or no current or voltage from a device down the neutral wire. I've seen houses where someone stole the bare #6 ground wire from the panel to ground to sell the copper. The new tenant or owner is unaware and the electrical in the house seems to work, more or less. There's no connection to ground anywhere in the system. It's all running on capacitance instead of grounding. It's wonky and likely dangerous but most of it still works. Of course I immediately tell the owner they need to put back the bare #6 ASAP.
Hey bro love your content just an FYI 200.6(E) (exc) allows you to re-identify a white conductor as long as it's part of a cable assembly. You do correctly interpret 404.2(C) keep up the good work!
Liked the video. I get so many calls especially from one handy man friend that he’s removed a switch and can’t remember what he did. As you know it’s not easy trying to help him figure out what he’s done if there are multiple switches at the same location. Going to refer him here for the future. Anyway is a 3 way really a 3 way and is a 4 way really a 4 way??? A 3 way has a common terminal (let’s for simplicity say an input) and two other terminals which dependent on switch position are in connection with the common, throw the switch and those connections change. 1 way or the 2nd way, thus 2 ways. No matter how you bring power in it can only leave 1 of 2 ways. Same for a 4 way, power is always coming in on one terminal of two and leaving on one of two others on the opposing side, 3 1/2 way maybe?. Lol just messing. Using the amount of terminals as the WAYS doesn’t work, otherwise a 1way should be a 2way Being a euro trained spark living in the US for over 20yrs I’ve messed with a lot of my colleagues over the years. Typically we call a 3way a 2way and a 4way an intermediate (it intermediately intersects the travelers). I’d be interested to hear other thoughts on how switches got the names we use. Keep up the interesting lectures 👌👍
My newly constructed house (in 2022) had two dead-end three-ways in it, except that the hot side was at the dead end in both cases. To install smart switches, I had to flip the hot and leg sides so that the hot side was in the same box as the neutral wire.
Two year helper here, boss's son has "ten-thirteen years experience". It's amazing how well he cites code to explain something and be absolutely wrong. Not just wrong, but like holy hell I'd be so screwed if I listened to you wrong. Destroyed equipment wrong, it's actually astounding. He's convinced himself of absolute absurdities and he's trying to teach them to me, only to be stopped dead in his tracks and told to shut up
So many right ways to wire 3-way and 4-way switches! Check this out, I always use the WHITE and RED for my travelers for efficiency. Yes I have to phase but you would anyway if your pulling switch legs and/or power out of 4-way locations. Also when your running a dead end 3-way (just one 14/3 in a box) you must have to use the white for the common and phase it. Mainly its nice to have options on a long 4-way run to put light leg and power where you want to along the run without being confused by the splice. Just make sure your crew is all doing them the same way!
Im used to seeing the "cali" three way in Houston (in new residential construction mind you) where they used/repurposed the white/"neutral" wire as a traveler.
I know of another type of "3-way" switch. A smart switch (Alexa- or Google Home- capable, for example -- also, some dimming 3-ways) uses the three wires as 1) Hot 2) Ground and lastly 3)"data/communication". I was baffled until I finally got it right. Then I realized what was happening. Both switches need to be "on" to respond, so a hot and ground are needed. But the switches also need to know what the other one is doing, therefore one of the wires is used for communication.
Also, many of those AC powered smart devices draw 1 or more Watts of standby power, 24-7. May not seem like a big deal but when every GFCI, AFCI, wifi switch, remote switch, motion sensor, dusk dawn sensor, microwave, toaster oven, washing machine, dryer etc etc are smart, you get a sizable phantom load even when all the devices are off.
Very cool! I've been a sparky for over 20 years and I've never seen or heard of a Carter or a Cali 3way. My company is strictly Lutron lighting controls so I completely agree on having a neutral in all the switch boxes especially with all of the modern-day LED loads. Most devices require a neut.
I stopped going to electrician groups, and, really, I only entered into these type of chat groups for a short time. I would look at some of the discussions on different topics and really didn't find any helpful information being given. I did find myself digging into the NEC code book a lot, though. I remember going online to look for questions for exam prep and spent more time searching the NEC trying to decided if the the question was even legit lol, but it did get me into the code and made me search for the truth, and I find that a lot of it is interpretation, and you have to weed through all that as well. I think the important thing is trying understand what the panel for each section might of been trying to convey. Because one thing that a person brought to me attention that sat on panel 5 and 17 of the NEC is that The National Electric Code is a "minimum safety requirement", so when I'm looking at the code, I'm thinking minimum safety requirement as a fundamental rule in interpretation!
I have come across another version of the dead end 3way where the power (via 14/2) was coming in to the ceiling jbox .running from their to each 3way switch was a 14/3. The neutral from the supply directly hooked to fixture ,the hot from supply to one white 14/3 , the other white 14/3 to the fixture hot, and both travelers capped together in ceiling j-box.
Most of the 3-way switches in my house are like this, which means you cannot install a smart-switch that requires a neutral. One solution I found was to install a smart-relay in the light fixture box. The problem with that is if you have to press the smart-relay reset button, you have to remove the light fixture to get to it. Does anybody have an acceptable way to use the existing wires, repurpose them in some way, so a smart-switch can be installed?
@@jackallen3994 It sounds like it’s time to replace the 3-wire with a 4-wire at the “hot” location. If you can’t attach a 4-wire to the 3-wire and pull through, well, I’ve learned from experience that they make drywall and mud everyday 🤪
I always called this Cali 3 way, except red and whites pass through light box as Travelers and 1 black is hot, the other black is switch leg. Same thing just different color travelers.
Had a 4-way in a previous home. Needed to figure it out in a pre-UA-cam era. If you want to use smart dimmers in a 3-way setup, neutral will be required in both dimmer locations.
Both of my three ways I have in my home are the dead end type. Both are for controlling lights from two different floors. So, I have a normal 3-way downstairs for an outdoor lamp and upstairs a smart 3-way for the same lamp. The other is similar, smart 3-way upstairs for outdoor stairwell and normal 3-way downstairs. I only have and need neutrals where the smart switches are and the normal 3-ways don't go to any outlets, so neutral is not necessary.
Ok, this might seem like a dumb question and you might have mentioned it. In the first example, how would you run the ground? I've seen two ways. Coming from the panel, bypass the outlet and switch, straight to the fixture, then from the second switch to the fixture. Basically just one continuous wire from the panel to the fixture, grabbing a tail from the second switch. The second way I've seen is from the panel meeting up with a tail from the outlet and each switch then up to the fixture. So basically grounding everything along the way to the fixture. I hope that all makes sense.
Amazing video! I’ve been helping a friend with some electrical work and I’m pretty sure they’ve got a dead end 3-way but didn’t know enough about it, so this was perfect info for me 👍 Subbed! 💪
Conductors that are apart of an assembly are permitted to be re Identified regardless of size Source: my brain!! Also you make excellent content! I am a local (to you) master and I enjoy sharing your videos with my apprentices because you take the time to be incredibly informative!
If you want more than 3 switches for 1 light (let's say in the staircase of an apartment building), just use a relay in the breaker panel with a push button circuit as switches. Standard practice in Germany. :D
One thing people don't take about is the three hot feeds. In 9 grade electrical and Electronics class we had to feed the hot at the switch, then at the light and finally at the opposite switch. We also installed the four way switch . Another can of worms is to know the difference between a four way switch and a double pole switch they are NOT the same. I had to change out one switch because some electrician used a double pole switch instead of a four way switch. 73
Outstanding video. Excellent, interesting instructor. Clearly explained, and the diagrams are awesome! Finally solved the "Dead End 3 Way Switch" issue that had perplexed me for years in my home. Thanks a bunch!
the last California 3 way you described is the only one I had ever heard of, and, like I said, someone from Cali came along, once upon a time, and said, that isn't a California 3 way lol. I don't know how anyone can argue with that lol. personally, if I'm wiring a new home or doing a remodel, I'm going to put a neutral in every switch box and I'm not going to cheat on cost by using a 12/3 to send a switch leg to the other side. I'm going to put the hot on one end and the switch leg on the other. Not that big of a deal and I don't need someone to tell me to put a cover on a box or conduit body lol; it's just something I'm going to do to protect the wires in the box and make sure someone doesn't accidentally come into contact with it. People can interpret away. I'm just going to do best practice! I, personally don't see no good reason not to put a neutral in every switch outlet, so that's what I will always do. People don't want to, that's on them. I don't need a code book to tell me to put a neutral there. In Oklahoma, people are using programmable switches that require a neutral hooked up to the switch, so it's just a best practice for everyone. Again, The NEC is a minimum safety standard, so it's ok to go above and beyond requirements!
Yo dustin I'd love to see a Code Myths video! Most recently I've debated 1. Connecting all grounds in a junction box (even when there's 2 different sized circuits) and 2. Running romex through EMT
Fairly certain both is wrong....I never tie my grounds together from different circuits out in the field. Even if it's not code I could see it being code eventually. Obviously I'm referring to houses and not your commercial environment with conduit and such. I just like the idea of having everything separate. Easier to diag on the future
@@anthonysmith9410 that would be a bitch to pull😂😂 we have pulled romex thru 2” emt that was stubbed out of panels before but screw pulling romex in emt for over 2’
Oh, this (sharing grounds) is one we should talk about. You can't share neutrals but I don't see why one can't share a ground. So, pulling two circuits from the same panel through conduit, do you guys pull two separate insulated ground wires even though they go to the same place at either end? They all attach to the junction box anyway, and one circuit blows at a time. It seems a waste....
I was told that it was ok to re-identify the white conductor for power in but not for use as a switch leg. 200.7 (c) 1. Im probably misinterpreting it, but in school, we were told to never do this. love your channel.
I see I'm late to the party here on this great video... If you want to learn more than you ever wanted to know about 3-way switches try retrofitting Z-Wave GE smart switches into a sprawling ranch that has wiring from 3 different decades (60's, 80's, and 2000's)! One helpful thing I found was that dead-end three ways can at least be rewired on the hot side to carry the required hot and neutral to the "dumb" GE remote switches. I also had to get creative with using legs going through the lighting fixture to get a neutral and or hot to the remote switch on a couple circuits. It took a bunch of mind numbing testing, tracing, and planning, but I was able to get 6 - 3/4 way switch circuits converted to smart switches, and I think I only had to run one new piece of Romex.
Awesome video , was looking for a explanation for a dead end 3 way wiring without using recepticals in your explanation. Just a dead end 3 way using the 2 switches and the light
On the Cali 3 way, hot needs to come into the left switch at one of the other two terminals. Bringing it into the middle point of he switch gives the left switch total control over the current supply to the bulb.
You’re a hell of a teacher and extremely knowledgeable so I guess I’m saying you’re a real deal electrician. You should be teaching somewhere this whole draw the situation while explaining it and having the drawing come to life while explaining it man shits fun. I don’t know what it is about electrical but for some reason it’s oddly satisfying and highly addictive and extremely interesting. I wish I would of realized how interesting a lot of shit like this was when I was younger and put my ass to work learning everything in the trade I could better late than never I guess. Definitely be sharing your videos. Anyone out there who reads this mainly you younger cats find a trade that interests you as early on as possible and stick with it shadow under professionals put forth a real effort and earn one of those said professionals respect a d you may come to slowly realize he’s taken you under his wing without you noticing. I promise you you’re future self will not regret it or be upset you did so. Remember that future self version of you is already watching through your eyes you just don’t realize it yet but one day it will all make sense and he will either be happy or annoyed wishing he would of realized some shit sooner than later. Value time, I promise you have less than you think!
Dustin I need your help. I believe I have a dead end 3 way in my kitchen (house built in 1952) I am putting a light fixture and dimmer in my living room. I put the dimmer on the opposite side of the wall where my kitchen light switch is (suspected dead end 3 way with no neutral wire). So I want to run power from the dead end switch to the dimmer. My 2 problems are 1. I'm having a hard time finding out which is power and 2. since there is no neutral in the dead end box where do I tie the neutral from the new light? I understand you are a busy person so I'm hoping you can help me. Love your videos and your channel! You have taught me so much and gave me the confidence to tackle these jobs on my own as I can not afford to call an electrician out. Thank you
I laughed at your description of arguments about The Book as literary discourse. Imagine the whole Book writing as literature like a Shakespearean epic poem. Or as Limericks or maybe a bunch of haiku. It’d make classroom time more engaging!
Here in the UK we have 2 way switching what you call three way and intermediate which is what you call a four way, which similarly can have as many switches as you want in theory.
I had a 1926 rowhouse in Washington DC that had a 3 way wired with the Carter method. It wasn't working right when I bought the house. It took quite some time for an electrician to get it working right. The house wiring was Greenfield, and I did not want to rewire the area where the switch was. Due to the wiring being old, it was hard to distinguish between the colored fabric coating.
In the 80's we used to run the feed to the overhead light and drop 14/3 to each switch. Where a feed was at one switch we ran 3 wire to the fixture and back to the other switch.
@@joshuaarellano6600 No. I just wired as the boss said. Had his nephew as my helper. Kid could fuck up a one car parade. Had to go back myself and fix everyone he touched.
White wire in 14/3 from 1st switch to light gives the light it's neutral from main source. White wire in 14/3 from light to 2nd switch will be your switch leg. Red and Black travelers tie together in light box and passes through. The hot at 1st switch goes to common side of switch. Here in Missouri we call that a half-ass 3 way. Not sure of technical term for it lol
Hello and thank you for your videos , very solid. I have a question, how can I add a receptacle to a 3 way switch in my house if I don’t know where is the hot or the leg. Can I add a receptacle in any side of the 3 way? So far I added the receptacle, but works with only one switch…. If I flip one of the switches, it will turn on or off the receptacle. How can I identify the leg or the hot?
Hell ya. Did me a dead end in garage cuz new door opens other side. I labeled it good for future, didn’t know it was a real thing tho lol. Thanks for advice
I just checked the NEC Handbook (2017), Article 200.7(C)(1). Another commentor is correct. For cables (MC, Romex), the white wire can be used and re-identified as ungrounded, if a switch supply or traveler in a single pole 3-way / 4-way switch loop, but not a switch leg. Interestingly, it doesn't prohibit all switch legs from being white wire (from a cable). Some people will say the switch leg should never be white, but that's not in the code (2017).
Also the white wire can be used and re-identified as a hot, when used to power a straight 240V load, such as a water heater, baseboard heater, or a NEMA 6-20R typically used for larger window AC units and larger electric heaters.
When it comes to the conduit fill and wire count there have been several times ive had to have 1/2" emt to a single switch but dont want to have another conduit come out of the switch leg side. What ive done is what i was taught is called a cold switched 3way....might be named wrong but this is where you have power and switche leg on the same side. All you do is tie your common wire into power right away which send the piwer side to the switch thats a die/ alone then wrap your switch leg on the travelers.
THIS was exactly what I was looking for! We recently did a simple switch disconnect/reconnect but I was trying to wire the traditional way but as it turns out, we were dealing with a Dead End 3-way. totally confused me. We did finally figure it out but this explains so well why 99% of 3-way wiring videos out there do not show dead end wiring. THANKS! I needed this!
The Code Time segment really sets this channel apart. I feel your channel is very underrated and want to say thank you for inspiring me in part to persue this career!
Indeed!
Can I double thumb up this vid? It took me an hour to figure out a repair on a dead end threeway last month. One of the switches had died, but seeing that hot neutral in the light box with no ID tape on it left me so confused until I drew it out on the table. Your video makes it so clear so quickly. Great info!
I was going nuts trying to figure out how to replace a three way switch setup in my house. It didn’t make sense looking at how the existing wiring was. Until I found this video! apparently it was a “cali” three-way. Thanks!
He is a Great Teacher...understandable explanations.
BINGO!! It was a "Chicago 3-way" design.
While merely replacing an old 1920s porcelain 3-way in a friend's 1905 house, I blew 4 Edison base fuses. What the...? So, I had to run a wire from a water pipe to determine what wires were hots or neutrals using my Wiggy. Yes, there was a neutral (!!??) on the switch. NOW I KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON THERE. "Chicago 3-way."
Thank you so much for this tutorial. Neither of those systems was taught in my apprenticeship.
I only see this NEC 2020 "neutral at switch boxes" applying to completely new switch circuits as in a rewire or new construction. As a practice, I try to always (especially in residential) have my switch legs go up to a fixture outlet from a wired switch box rather than than down. and this practice was influenced from my early electrical maintenance days (mostly service work), whereas I hated having to fool with a light fixture to troubleshoot a problem such as bad splices. Another great video for sure...
Dude, thank you SO much for this! The way you've animated this, and how you've illustrated the connections are SO helpful. The physical connections and interactions between the components are what I have struggled with, and this helps me visualize it better than I ever have. More, please!
Great video. You just helped me solve a problem I was working on today with two dead end 3 way switches that control the garage light from the kitchen door and garage door. Saved me the trouble of having to call for help.
Update - Section 404.2c was changed in 2020 and now prohibits a "dead end" three-way in a remodel if there is no finish on the wall and the wire is readily accessable and can be changed. I ran into this on my remodel when I exposed an old dead end three-way and had to add a neutral. The reason for this is that many modern "smart" switches require a neutral. If the neutral isn't used, it is capped for future use.
I'm also having to upgrade some single pole switches to 14/3 wire because the home runs are to the junction box for the light. Again, the unused neutral is capped for future use.
You just solved a 29-year mystery in my world. It was that long ago that I was unable to figure out the wiring of a 3-way switched light in an old house retrofit with K&T (had been gas lit) that had then been plastered-over. For the love of God nor money could I figure this thing out. Of course, I could not see the wiring paths behind the walls and all wires were the same color black. It was, I see now, a Chicago/Carter method. Thank you.
When I was a kid, my father replaced a 3-way switch, and as soon as we flipped the switch, it blew the fuse! Huh? Well, it was (as I now know) a Carter 3-way, and the replacement switch was a mercury switch, and flipping the switch momentarily connected all three terminals, shorting the power, and blowing the fuse! Minneapolis, not too far from Chicago :)
im a journeyman electrician , i know this stuff but for some reason i cannot stop watching your videos, thank you for the videos your doing keep up the great work
IS NEC certified same as Journeyman? Taking exam at your local village or other local jurisdiction but it just states licensed electrical contractor not journeyman. So journeyman is specifically for union electricians?
@@vlad1889 Nope, where I live there is 4 classes of electricians, licensed by our state, union or not.
Class A: Master
Class B: Journeyman
Class C: Systems Contractor
Class D: Systems Technician
I currently hold a Class A and B licenses, since for some reason your not actually allowed to do electrical work with s Class A. Weird huh?
@@vlad1889 state licensed for general electrical contractor is the same as journeyman...
@@steve-o6413 in DE a journey needs to work under a master still. Only a master can pull a permit.
Perfect timing!! I encountered a strange 3-way delimma over the weekend at a 90 year old house. I bet it's a Chicago 3-way...
Ok, so terminology is different as I’m a licensed Electrician in both Australia and UK. But the first 3 way and the dead end 3 way is generally what we would use… the dead end is wired slightly differently but the principle is the same. Enjoying your vids and the different words we use.
Would you mind recommending some electrical channels similar to this from one of those countries? I'm interested on learning more about how things are wired in a 240v system.
@@joshuaarellano6600 Check out Artisan electrical and Tom Nagy
Here's a future video idea: How to do a re-wire or replace a home-run most efficiently with minimum amount of drywall damage. Any tips and tricks you've learned over the years that would be helpful to new guys getting into the field. Thanks.
Depends on what is above or below and where you can fish from. Sometimes you have to go up over and down. I worked in a split level that had the walls been open would take 50 ft of wire from the panel to new AC. Because we had to drill and fish up over and down it took almost a full roll of 10/3 NM
I would love to see a video about this uuf
Agree. I’m always wanting to do the minimum amount of damage, and obviously still get the job done quickly and efficiently
This would be tremendously helpful.
I can tell you that re-wiring without opening the walls uses a whole lot more wire.
You can't do it efficiently without opening up walls. If you don't open walls you use lots of junction boxes in the basement and attic, and a lot of dead end runs.
But that is the trade off for not damaging original plaster in an 1890 house.
First floor isn't as bad if you have a basement, not nearly as much wasted wire going from underneath to wall outlets.
Going up to the attic, then dropping down the wall for each receptacle on the second floor burns through wire pretty quick though.
An old electrician who wired many California three way circuits explained it to me like this. On a three way switch you have a common and two throws, not a common and two travelers. The wires are travelers not the terminals. A traveler is a wire that connects two switches together and no matter how many boxes that wire goes through nothing else gets connected to it.
A conventional three way (straight, loop, dead end) has two travelers. A California has one traveler between the commons, nothing else is connected to that wire. While the throws are wired together too, those conductors are not travelers because in every box they go through, one is a hot and the other is a switch leg.
In a Carter there is no traveler. Each switch gets hot and neutral on its throws and the lamp is wired between the commons. It’s illegal because it can break the neutral leaving both sides of the lamp shell hot, with the lamp being off.
The benefit of the California is when a three way is needed to control a string of lights, it saves a conductor in the run compared to a conventional three way. It’s totally legal under 404.2 because it only breaks the hot.
Save yourself some wire, use the California when you have multiple loads on a three way.
Love your video and have come back several times to watch the variations. One variation of the three-way switch I’m having a really hard time finding is one where the power comes into the switchbox, and then both the three wire to the other switch, and the two wire to the lights come out of that same box. Might be a great video for someone as I can’t find it anywhere
What you're describing is the dead end three way, actually a commonly used variation. Technically still a code compliant 3-way since the box with the incoming power has an available neutral. Especially useful in renovations where you need to convert a single pole switch into a pair of 3 ways with minimal work.
Totally thought this was gonna be another repeat video. BUT It wasn't that's awesome because I didn't know about the Chicago 3 ways or the Cali 3 way really except that Kelly 3 ways were dead in 3 ways as well. Thanks for the knowledge dude and nice animations.
This was soo helpful. I just found out about the neutral code requirements and wasnt sure, about how to handle until watching this video. Thank you!!
Can be especially confusing for traveling electricians because often local jurisdictions have stricter requirements than the NEC and while one county for example, may allow dead end three ways, the next county may not, or they may allow 14-4 or two runs of 14-2 so as to have a neutral at all switch boxes, for example.
This video answered a lot of my questions. The white board and diagrams made it simple. Much appreciated.
Thanks for your video. I ran across this Carter/Chicago style 3 way on a repair job that the customer had put in new switches and it was very helpful!
Lol did it take you some time to figure out what they had running? If so how long. Luckily I have personally never ran into a Chicago/carter 3 way, I have only heard of them and apparently they have been illegally installed decades after they became illegal in the mid 1920s. A fairly common application, was on older farms , and homes in rural areas, where you had a home, a yardlight and an outbuilding, and some receptacles in the outbuilding that are to remain constant hot, and 3 way switches in the home and outbuilding controlled the yardlight using only 3 wires instead of four with or without ground.
Thank you man. I’m in vocation school right now and was really stumped on the dead end. My instructor kinda just told me to figure it out as he sees it as a better alternative of learning as hik showing us.
I really learn a lot from your vids and appreciate your producing them. Great explanation of three ways. Another way to wire a dead end 3-way and have a constant hot and neutral in the leg box is using 12-2-2 or 14-2-2. Method: From the line-side, send the hot (black) to the load (black screw) of the leg switch. Use the red and red/white conductors for travelers and cap off the neutral (for future). In the line-side box, connect the light's black wire (load) to the load post (black screw) and splice your neutrals there. We had to do this where we had a huge barring post in the way making other paths difficult.
Your explanation and diagram of the dead end 3way perfectly described the hot mess I was seeing in switch boxes. Thank you so much!
Any way to make it work to an outlet?
Very helpful video, I ran into a dead-end recently on a non working 3 way switch repair. Dustin your awesome Thank you.
I have worked on thousands of houses from the turn of the century and I’ve NEVER seen a Chicago 3Way… and I’m glad of it! Wow, who’d a thunk of that…
try living on the east coast especially New england where K&T is still widely present i ran into a cple of times. now word is out to call me when modern bulbs are burning up or just not working lol
(im not a professional or licensed but i get a lot of calls from some asking to dble chk for a carter system lol
Thank you Dustin! I'm just a DIYer but had a situation where I had a misbehaving 3 way setup. Turned out to be a miswired dead end 3 way. I suspect it has never worked correctly for the 10 years since the house was built.
The 'Dead End 3-Way' is what I would use based on my 45 years in electronics, though I would run the 14/3 red & black from the travelers on the first hot switch plus the neutral straight into the ceiling box, then strip off the outer jacket, cut the white wire and fasten it onto the shell screw, then put black tape onto the other end of the white and connect it to the screw hooked to the bottom light socket contact. Then I would continue the cable over to the other 3-way switch, and hook red and black to the travelers, and white to common with a black tape band added. The down side is pulling the wire all the way through the box. BUT, I know the way we would do things in electronics does not always satisfy code, though it would save on wire nuts and wire. Thanks for your informative videos. I learned a bunch of this stuff from my dad a long time ago, but he went to trade school to be an electrician in the 1930s. Much has changed!
Wonder if your dad learned the carter 3 way method, because it allowed power on both ends of a three way using 3 wires instead of 4 not counting the ground, and the economic hardships of the time forced many people to get creative and make do with the least amount of material. Actually ran across a carter 3 way a little while back on a farm with a yardlight between the house and barn with a single conductor running from the house and barn to the light pole, controlled by 3 way switches from different panels. House and barn were built c. 1910 and got electricity in the late 40s.
Goddamn dead end 3-ways finally just clilcked for me. Describing it as just bringing the switch leg over to the 2nd box via the white wire in a 3-wire cable makes so much more sense than any other way it's been explained to me. Thank you!
Congrats, I finally understand it when I used my red and whites as Travelers instead of red and black. For some reason, Black wires always going to common side of switch always made more sense to me rather than using the white as a common.
Wired up a huge house that had 5 seperate doors leading in the place. Had several hallways that criss crossed another hallway. Had at least 14 three way switches and maybe 6 four way switches. Sparky working with me never wired in a 4 way switch and screwed up wiring them. As long as you are using 2 NM cables for each 3 or 4 way very easy to wire them. Liked to put a piece of black tape on wire that feed switches.
Very Cool and detaied information i appricciate it. the dead end method you showed at the end of the video looks like the one i used before I once did a 3 way setup to control some recessed lights in my bedroom to control from 2 spots.😎
Thanks so much. I’ve never heard of the dead end 3-way. Literally saved me hours of work.
Thank you.
I repaired a 3-way in my folks home years ago. I had to diagram it out to do the repair.
This video really helped.
Also, thanks for the code discussion.
I started studying AC circuits and the code as a graduate student when an electrician told me 240 single phase was the same as 208 3-phase.
Even as a professor, I get confused by the words in the NEC. So do the electricians and inspectors.
Thanks again.
the same? in what context?
that's what makes our American system so good, 240 3 wire is a single phase Edison type circuit, and used in mostly residential, and 208 is two circuits of a three phase delta boat sharing a neutral, electricity can flow more freely through our grid without big differences in voltage, they are the same in regards to the equipment you are running, but they are very different in a lot of other ways. 208 in a three-phase wye system is a single pole stinger leg.
Sending this to my Father-in-Law. The previous owner of his place had some hack install a "three way" circuit in the living room, one switch at the front door and one at the kitchen. Unfortunately, it's only 14/2 throughout and uses single-throw switches. Dude got it right in that both switches WILL turn the light off... but if you turn it off at the front door, the kitchen switch won't work. If you turn it off at the kitchen, then the front door doesn't work. The hack just put two switches in series, then installed a ceiling fan with a pull switch, which is what my in-laws end up using. It pains me greatly and I end up walking around in the dark rather than dick with it. I'm dreading replacing that mess because my Father-in-Law thinks the attic is unsafe and hasn't agreed to let me look at it yet.
This was very informative. I can't say I have seen the Chicago or California 3 way locally. But the one I didn't see is the hybrid 3 way.
I use it mostly for entry halls.
But to save that additional 2 wire switched leg, we run 3 wire from a switch box with power to say an entry chandelier box, then 3 wire back down making a dead end on the other side of the hall. Neutral comes from the power switch box.
Switch leg is the common at the dead end. And yes you have to change the color of the travelers in the ceiling box to avoid having two white wires at the fixture.
I think this is what I have in my house.I have a foyer light with stairs. switch at bottom and switch at top. The bottom switch has a common/hot, neutral and two "travelers". the top switch has only one traveler and one neutral (coming from wire nut with 3 or 4 other white wires going who knows where). Im trying to wire up a smart switch but cannot get the top switch to work. Any ideas? and yes, I am not an electrician.
@@jleslie246 if there multiple neutrals in the box at the top of the stairs that tells me there at one point was a pig tail coming from the "hots" in that same box to feed the circuit. This is more akin to the California 3 way described in the video. In older homes a neutral is a neutral to older electricians. Neutral and switched leg comes from the bottom of the stairs and you have a black and white pair of "travelers" at the top of the stairs and a hot wire in the switch at the top is the common.
If you're wondering where how power gets to the switched leg, it's the travelers, all the switch does is alternate between the two travelers as paths. Commons are source and load.
@@samuelcrossland1101 the only wires connected at the top of the stairs are the traveler and neutral. it worked with the old switch but the new smart switch i put in at the bottom wont work with the top switch connected.
@@jleslie246 it needs a companion switch of the same type.
I just came across a California three way replacing a light switch in my house and I didn’t understand how three ways worked until I watched your video thanks for explaining how they work
I really appreciate your explanations as you drew these diagrams. I encountered a situation where whoever wired this house ran the load and neutral wires from the light into Switch A, and connected the incoming hot line to the white wire along with the travelers, essentially bypassing Switch A to run the power directly to Switch B. This configuration was not represented in any of the standard wiring diagrams I was able to find, but your drawings in combination with some voltage and continuity tests (plus lots of head scratching) revealed the situation....and I was able to fix the 3 way circuit in my dining and add a functional dimmer. Thanks!!!!
Perfect! The dead-end 3-way is just what I had been searching for. I want to convert a switch inside the attached garage into a 3-way with the second switch on the other side of the wall that has a pilot light so I can tell if the garage light is on or not without opening the door. Wiring the pilot into the dead-end shouldn't be a problem? Thanks for the video.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Just working on my house today, moving switches and ran into a Chicago 3way. It was kicking my butt. But after watching this video it went back together as you described. 3 way back up and working.
Hey Dustin. As a Canadian studying the electrical trade in our code books (CEC 2018 24th edition) Section 4-022-2 states that a Neutral conductor is required in every switch box. It reads as "The identified conductor shall be installed at each location of a manual or automatic control device for the control of permanently installed luminaires at a branch circuit outlet."
I recently did a kitchen/house remodel. I ended up scrapping all my 3 way switches. I had three 3-way (kitchen, hallway, & stairs) switches and replaced them with the Lutron smart switches. I know you are a electrician and it is less profitable for you to install wireless switches. But these Lutron Caseta switches/dimmers are legit. I even convert a existing 3 way situation into 4-ways by simply adding the wireless receivers. I have also convert the living room and family room single pole switches into 3 way Lutron dimmers. The great thing about the Lutron line is that the switches do not require neutral wire which mean you can easily upgrade your older houses into modern smart homes.
Fantastic video brother! Learned a lot about the two odd-ball wiring methods. Your animations were perfect. Thanks a lot man keep it up
The animations were helpful. Finding out a variation of a dead end 3 way is okay for now was helpful. Mine had the travelers go like normal and the hot travel from the power source to the dead end through the white wire on the 12/3. The other switch common went to the light.
On the dead ends, I always did the white and red for the travelers and kept the black for the switch leg. I always stripped my common for the other people working on the finish. You need to show the fed at light with 2 dead ends, very useful in an old work situation.
Excellent Dustin! I like your emphasis on code. As often happens, ignore the code until the house burns down or worse a demise, and then remorse, "if only I had followed the code"
Great explanation for 3ways didn't know about the Chicago 3way even after many years in the Trade you can still learn new things...
basically, if you are running Romex, then the neutral needs to be in the outlet box. If it's EMT, and you can add it later then you don't have to run it; it can be added later if it's needed. This is basically why, in Oklahoma, they stopped letting us use the white wire to send a switch leg to the other 3 way and mark it with some red tape to identify it as hot. As an apprentice in open shop, I worked with a Journeyman that liked to use the white wire in a 12/3 to send the switch leg to the other side. He argued it uses less wire and saved on overhead. People were calling that a California 3 way for years until we had an electrician from California come along and tell some people that this wasn't a California 3 way. This is the first time I ever seen someone describe a California 3 way, and it is definitely different from what Journey were calling one back then. I have never seen the Carter 3 way but that looks kind of sketchy! I wonder who dreamed that up?
Jimmy Carter lol😂😂
You should make a video about trouble shooting them on service calls.
I agree Ryan even if it’s not a true service call
One easy way if troubleshooting a 3-way on a service call and KNOW it is the issue…..undo all wires and rewire; find easier then trying to spend the time searching and looking and testing everything (and yeah, might end up doing anyway), but undoing all the wiring and doing over tends to be fastest and able to “see” what’s happening, imo.
Everyone does service calls diff, so, this might work great for me etc…so, everyone has there techniques and steps for dealing with troubleshooting service calls😉
Cheers✌🏻
@@Aepek When you say undo all the wires and re-wire, do you mean re landing the correct wires where they're actually supposed to go? I'm a little confused about what you mean here.
@@that1electrician Easier to tell where things really go if not hidden / biased by the old known-wrong wiring
I encountered this Cali 3-way crap on my 70s house in the Dallas area. They apparantly didn't want to spring for 12/3 cable, so they used 12/2 everywhere. Tied to a separate circuit's neutral & that's how I discovered it. Had the hallway circuit on for extra light, while working on a bedroom circuit--breaker switched off and confirmed. Unwired the neutral bundle in the bedroom switch box and got bit & hallway light turned off. Go switch off that circuit and open up the hallway boxes to find this mess. So my simple bedroom switch replacement turned into a run to the hardware store to buy some 12/3 and fix that crap. I checked the other 3-way setup for the garage & yep, same crap.
I have this same setup in my early '80s house in the Houston area. They actually daisy chained the separate circuit's neutral so that the outside light hot used the kitchen neutral, the kitchen hot used the dining room neutral, and the dining room hot used the stairway neutral. Is this just a version of the California 3-way, or would this qualify as a different type of setup?
Hey Dustin, one thing you mentioned parenthetically was the dubious use of #6 and smaller white conductor used instead as an ungrounded circuit conductor, and that doing so was not compliant, but that most AHJs would not cite this as a violation. Just a reminder that cable assemblies are discussed in Article 200.6 and even white wires #6 and smaller may be re-purposed as ungrounded circuit conductors by way of phase tape or other effective means. For cable assemblies, there is no code violation.
Good info. Thanks.
Man, I remember the days when it first started as an apprentice doing residential electrical work and I would always come across these and the California version as well. A lot of exciting 💥moments for me back then😅.
Up here in Canada I've seen 3 ways done a different way. You use 4 wire cable, red, black, white and ground. You run such a wire from the wall switch up into the ceiling light fixture and then down to the other wall switch. You can bring a hot 3 wire into any of the 3 boxes to power the circuit with with slight variations. I'll use an example of running the hot wire into one of the switches. You connect the hot black wire to the common pole. You then connect the black and red from the 4 wire to the other two poles. In the light fixture box you connect the black and red so they run on to the other switch. At the end switch you connect to black and red to the same poles as the first fixture and the white wire running back to the box to the common pole. This makes the white running back to the light a hot wire, mark it with black tape at both ends. Now just connect the hot white to the base connection of the bulb and the white going back to the start to the neutral side. At the first switch connect the white from the 4 wire to the white 3 wire power in line. And of course all the ground wires in all boxes are connected together. There's a bit of variation you can figure out yourself when the hot 3 wire is brought into the light fixture box in the ceiling.
This set up seems to make it simpler and easier to wire 3 ways. There's no mystery 3 wire running in the walls along a different path. Overall it reduces wire costs and stringing for most jobs. It's also a lot easier to fish a single wire in a repair or retrofit scenario in a finished home. I notice now there is no neutral in the last box which isn't current code. If I had to install a smart switch in an existing box without a white neutral I would connect the neutral pole to the bare copper ground wire. The electronics in the switch don't return juice down the neutral. They just need it as a reference ground voltage. The ground wire should serve. Not sure if this acceptable under code??? It should be safe if the smart switch is made properly. I've seen electricians do this back in the day for old 240 volt electric stove circuits that didn't have a bare ground wire. They would connect the newer stove's ground wire to the white neutral going back to the panel. As we all know the ground and white neutral eventually connect to the same piece of metal in the panel. All the neutrals and grounds are electrically continuous, connected, in a home. And you'd likely get a better ground voltage reference from the bare copper wire than a neutral which could get thrown off by juice inputs elsewhere along the neutral circuit. I think the makers of such switches made an unnecessary mistake in choosing the neutral instead of the bare ground for a reference ground voltage. Or perhaps to accommodate older wiring with no bare ground wire. Or maybe I misunderstand the need for a neutral in smart switches. I would think the bare ground would be preferable when available. Somebody should check into this, see if technically the bare ground is ok and safe to use and the makers say it fits with their design intent. This would make meeting code requirements easier and cheaper
Just a note of caution here when using fixtures and switches made in or for Canada. Canada is bilingual, French and English. As a result laws require labeling in both languages. That creates a mistake that's easy to make. In French white is spelled "blanc". If you're not paying attention or in poor lighting it's very easy to mistake the "blanc" label on components for "black". You'll connect the hot wire to the wrong pole. Heads up on this eh!
I've seen some weird things the text books don't describe in AC wiring and I've come to believe there is very little or no current or voltage from a device down the neutral wire. I've seen houses where someone stole the bare #6 ground wire from the panel to ground to sell the copper. The new tenant or owner is unaware and the electrical in the house seems to work, more or less. There's no connection to ground anywhere in the system. It's all running on capacitance instead of grounding. It's wonky and likely dangerous but most of it still works. Of course I immediately tell the owner they need to put back the bare #6 ASAP.
Hey bro love your content just an FYI 200.6(E) (exc) allows you to re-identify a white conductor as long as it's part of a cable assembly. You do correctly interpret 404.2(C) keep up the good work!
Liked the video. I get so many calls especially from one handy man friend that he’s removed a switch and can’t remember what he did. As you know it’s not easy trying to help him figure out what he’s done if there are multiple switches at the same location. Going to refer him here for the future.
Anyway is a 3 way really a 3 way and is a 4 way really a 4 way???
A 3 way has a common terminal (let’s for simplicity say an input) and two other terminals which dependent on switch position are in connection with the common, throw the switch and those connections change. 1 way or the 2nd way, thus 2 ways. No matter how you bring power in it can only leave 1 of 2 ways. Same for a 4 way, power is always coming in on one terminal of two and leaving on one of two others on the opposing side, 3 1/2 way maybe?. Lol just messing. Using the amount of terminals as the WAYS doesn’t work, otherwise a 1way should be a 2way
Being a euro trained spark living in the US for over 20yrs I’ve messed with a lot of my colleagues over the years. Typically we call a 3way a 2way and a 4way an intermediate (it intermediately intersects the travelers).
I’d be interested to hear other thoughts on how switches got the names we use.
Keep up the interesting lectures 👌👍
seriously considering a career as an electrician now. thank you very much, brother.
My newly constructed house (in 2022) had two dead-end three-ways in it, except that the hot side was at the dead end in both cases. To install smart switches, I had to flip the hot and leg sides so that the hot side was in the same box as the neutral wire.
I've done the same in my 1972 house. Basically "undid" the dead end three way and capped the red.
Conductors can be reidentified if smaller than #6 if part of a rated cable assembly.
Thanks for explaining the cali three way.
Two year helper here, boss's son has "ten-thirteen years experience". It's amazing how well he cites code to explain something and be absolutely wrong. Not just wrong, but like holy hell I'd be so screwed if I listened to you wrong. Destroyed equipment wrong, it's actually astounding. He's convinced himself of absolute absurdities and he's trying to teach them to me, only to be stopped dead in his tracks and told to shut up
So many right ways to wire 3-way and 4-way switches! Check this out, I always use the WHITE and RED for my travelers for efficiency. Yes I have to phase but you would anyway if your pulling switch legs and/or power out of 4-way locations. Also when your running a dead end 3-way (just one 14/3 in a box) you must have to use the white for the common and phase it.
Mainly its nice to have options on a long 4-way run to put light leg and power where you want to along the run without being confused by the splice. Just make sure your crew is all doing them the same way!
Im used to seeing the "cali" three way in Houston (in new residential construction mind you) where they used/repurposed the white/"neutral" wire as a traveler.
I know of another type of "3-way" switch. A smart switch (Alexa- or Google Home- capable, for example -- also, some dimming 3-ways) uses the three wires as 1) Hot 2) Ground and lastly 3)"data/communication". I was baffled until I finally got it right. Then I realized what was happening. Both switches need to be "on" to respond, so a hot and ground are needed. But the switches also need to know what the other one is doing, therefore one of the wires is used for communication.
Also, many of those AC powered smart devices draw 1 or more Watts of standby power, 24-7. May not seem like a big deal but when every GFCI, AFCI, wifi switch, remote switch, motion sensor, dusk dawn sensor, microwave, toaster oven, washing machine, dryer etc etc are smart, you get a sizable phantom load even when all the devices are off.
Excellent presentation! Bravo!
Very cool! I've been a sparky for over 20 years and I've never seen or heard of a Carter or a Cali 3way. My company is strictly Lutron lighting controls so I completely agree on having a neutral in all the switch boxes especially with all of the modern-day LED loads. Most devices require a neut.
Funny enough: the Californian 3 Way circuit is (in my opinion) the most popular one here in germany
I stopped going to electrician groups, and, really, I only entered into these type of chat groups for a short time. I would look at some of the discussions on different topics and really didn't find any helpful information being given. I did find myself digging into the NEC code book a lot, though. I remember going online to look for questions for exam prep and spent more time searching the NEC trying to decided if the the question was even legit lol, but it did get me into the code and made me search for the truth, and I find that a lot of it is interpretation, and you have to weed through all that as well. I think the important thing is trying understand what the panel for each section might of been trying to convey. Because one thing that a person brought to me attention that sat on panel 5 and 17 of the NEC is that The National Electric Code is a "minimum safety requirement", so when I'm looking at the code, I'm thinking minimum safety requirement as a fundamental rule in interpretation!
Thank you for the Dead end 3 way lesson! Nobody else showed it.
I have come across another version of the dead end 3way where the power (via 14/2) was coming in to the ceiling jbox .running from their to each 3way switch was a 14/3. The neutral from the supply directly hooked to fixture ,the hot from supply to one white 14/3 , the other white 14/3 to the fixture hot, and both travelers capped together in ceiling j-box.
Most of the 3-way switches in my house are like this, which means you cannot install a smart-switch that requires a neutral. One solution I found was to install a smart-relay in the light fixture box. The problem with that is if you have to press the smart-relay reset button, you have to remove the light fixture to get to it. Does anybody have an acceptable way to use the existing wires, repurpose them in some way, so a smart-switch can be installed?
@@jackallen3994 It sounds like it’s time to replace the 3-wire with a 4-wire at the “hot” location. If you can’t attach a 4-wire to the 3-wire and pull through, well, I’ve learned from experience that they make drywall and mud everyday 🤪
Anyone know the name for this type of three-way?
I always called this Cali 3 way, except red and whites pass through light box as Travelers and 1 black is hot, the other black is switch leg. Same thing just different color travelers.
Had a 4-way in a previous home. Needed to figure it out in a pre-UA-cam era.
If you want to use smart dimmers in a 3-way setup, neutral will be required in both dimmer locations.
Always very interesting and informative. I am in Chicago and never heard of a Chicago 3-way. At least in the electrical context.
Both of my three ways I have in my home are the dead end type. Both are for controlling lights from two different floors. So, I have a normal 3-way downstairs for an outdoor lamp and upstairs a smart 3-way for the same lamp. The other is similar, smart 3-way upstairs for outdoor stairwell and normal 3-way downstairs. I only have and need neutrals where the smart switches are and the normal 3-ways don't go to any outlets, so neutral is not necessary.
Ok, this might seem like a dumb question and you might have mentioned it. In the first example, how would you run the ground? I've seen two ways. Coming from the panel, bypass the outlet and switch, straight to the fixture, then from the second switch to the fixture. Basically just one continuous wire from the panel to the fixture, grabbing a tail from the second switch.
The second way I've seen is from the panel meeting up with a tail from the outlet and each switch then up to the fixture. So basically grounding everything along the way to the fixture.
I hope that all makes sense.
Amazing video! I’ve been helping a friend with some electrical work and I’m pretty sure they’ve got a dead end 3-way but didn’t know enough about it, so this was perfect info for me 👍 Subbed! 💪
Thanks for the sub!
Conductors that are apart of an assembly are permitted to be re Identified regardless of size
Source: my brain!!
Also you make excellent content! I am a local (to you) master and I enjoy sharing your videos with my apprentices because you take the time to be incredibly informative!
Holy s*** dude tons of thanks this is the only video to diagnose a California 3-way in a 50 year old house
Excellent content!!! The only two three ways I’ve ever known were the regular and dead end. I always heard the dead end called the “old way”.
If you want more than 3 switches for 1 light (let's say in the staircase of an apartment building), just use a relay in the breaker panel with a push button circuit as switches. Standard practice in Germany. :D
One thing people don't take about is the three hot feeds. In 9 grade electrical and Electronics class we had to feed the hot at the switch, then at the light and finally at the opposite switch. We also installed the four way switch .
Another can of worms is to know the difference between a four way switch and a double pole switch they are NOT the same. I had to change out one switch because some electrician used a double pole switch instead of a four way switch. 73
Outstanding video. Excellent, interesting instructor. Clearly explained, and the diagrams are awesome! Finally solved the "Dead End 3 Way Switch" issue that had perplexed me for years in my home. Thanks a bunch!
the last California 3 way you described is the only one I had ever heard of, and, like I said, someone from Cali came along, once upon a time, and said, that isn't a California 3 way lol. I don't know how anyone can argue with that lol. personally, if I'm wiring a new home or doing a remodel, I'm going to put a neutral in every switch box and I'm not going to cheat on cost by using a 12/3 to send a switch leg to the other side. I'm going to put the hot on one end and the switch leg on the other. Not that big of a deal and I don't need someone to tell me to put a cover on a box or conduit body lol; it's just something I'm going to do to protect the wires in the box and make sure someone doesn't accidentally come into contact with it. People can interpret away. I'm just going to do best practice! I, personally don't see no good reason not to put a neutral in every switch outlet, so that's what I will always do. People don't want to, that's on them. I don't need a code book to tell me to put a neutral there. In Oklahoma, people are using programmable switches that require a neutral hooked up to the switch, so it's just a best practice for everyone. Again, The NEC is a minimum safety standard, so it's ok to go above and beyond requirements!
Yo dustin I'd love to see a Code Myths video! Most recently I've debated 1. Connecting all grounds in a junction box (even when there's 2 different sized circuits) and 2. Running romex through EMT
Fairly certain both is wrong....I never tie my grounds together from different circuits out in the field. Even if it's not code I could see it being code eventually. Obviously I'm referring to houses and not your commercial environment with conduit and such.
I just like the idea of having everything separate. Easier to diag on the future
No romex thru emt…….thats a no no
I think he already did the romex in duit video, Its a no if it can get wet. I think.....
@@anthonysmith9410 that would be a bitch to pull😂😂 we have pulled romex thru 2” emt that was stubbed out of panels before but screw pulling romex in emt for over 2’
Oh, this (sharing grounds) is one we should talk about. You can't share neutrals but I don't see why one can't share a ground. So, pulling two circuits from the same panel through conduit, do you guys pull two separate insulated ground wires even though they go to the same place at either end? They all attach to the junction box anyway, and one circuit blows at a time. It seems a waste....
I was told that it was ok to re-identify the white conductor for power in but not for use as a switch leg. 200.7 (c) 1. Im probably misinterpreting it, but in school, we were told to never do this. love your channel.
Love your content! I want to be an electrician in my hometown of Los Angeles 🙌🏼
I see I'm late to the party here on this great video... If you want to learn more than you ever wanted to know about 3-way switches try retrofitting Z-Wave GE smart switches into a sprawling ranch that has wiring from 3 different decades (60's, 80's, and 2000's)! One helpful thing I found was that dead-end three ways can at least be rewired on the hot side to carry the required hot and neutral to the "dumb" GE remote switches. I also had to get creative with using legs going through the lighting fixture to get a neutral and or hot to the remote switch on a couple circuits. It took a bunch of mind numbing testing, tracing, and planning, but I was able to get 6 - 3/4 way switch circuits converted to smart switches, and I think I only had to run one new piece of Romex.
This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you !
Awesome video , was looking for a explanation for a dead end 3 way wiring without using recepticals in your explanation. Just a dead end 3 way using the 2 switches and the light
On the Cali 3 way, hot needs to come into the left switch at one of the other two terminals. Bringing it into the middle point of he switch gives the left switch total control over the current supply to the bulb.
You’re a hell of a teacher and extremely knowledgeable so I guess I’m saying you’re a real deal electrician. You should be teaching somewhere this whole draw the situation while explaining it and having the drawing come to life while explaining it man shits fun. I don’t know what it is about electrical but for some reason it’s oddly satisfying and highly addictive and extremely interesting. I wish I would of realized how interesting a lot of shit like this was when I was younger and put my ass to work learning everything in the trade I could better late than never I guess. Definitely be sharing your videos. Anyone out there who reads this mainly you younger cats find a trade that interests you as early on as possible and stick with it shadow under professionals put forth a real effort and earn one of those said professionals respect a d you may come to slowly realize he’s taken you under his wing without you noticing. I promise you you’re future self will not regret it or be upset you did so. Remember that future self version of you is already watching through your eyes you just don’t realize it yet but one day it will all make sense and he will either be happy or annoyed wishing he would of realized some shit sooner than later. Value time, I promise you have less than you think!
Thank you! Now i know how my kitchen light was set up! (Chicago 3-way) That had been bugging the crap out of me!
Dustin I need your help. I believe I have a dead end 3 way in my kitchen (house built in 1952) I am putting a light fixture and dimmer in my living room. I put the dimmer on the opposite side of the wall where my kitchen light switch is (suspected dead end 3 way with no neutral wire). So I want to run power from the dead end switch to the dimmer. My 2 problems are 1. I'm having a hard time finding out which is power and 2. since there is no neutral in the dead end box where do I tie the neutral from the new light? I understand you are a busy person so I'm hoping you can help me. Love your videos and your channel! You have taught me so much and gave me the confidence to tackle these jobs on my own as I can not afford to call an electrician out. Thank you
Thank you for this channel and these jewels! I’m constantly learning something new with every video! Thank you again!
I laughed at your description of arguments about The Book as literary discourse. Imagine the whole Book writing as literature like a Shakespearean epic poem. Or as Limericks or maybe a bunch of haiku. It’d make classroom time more engaging!
Here in the UK we have 2 way switching what you call three way and intermediate which is what you call a four way, which similarly can have as many switches as you want in theory.
I had a 1926 rowhouse in Washington DC that had a 3 way wired with the Carter method. It wasn't working right when I bought the house. It took quite some time for an electrician to get it working right. The house wiring was Greenfield, and I did not want to rewire the area where the switch was. Due to the wiring being old, it was hard to distinguish between the colored fabric coating.
We used to do down on white back on black for single pole switches back in early 2000s
Here in Australia that's a 2 way switching. Here a 3 way has 3 switches & so on.
In the 80's we used to run the feed to the overhead light and drop 14/3 to each switch. Where a feed was at one switch we ran 3 wire to the fixture and back to the other switch.
Do you know what some of the names for those specific three-ways are?
@@joshuaarellano6600
No. I just wired as the boss said. Had his nephew as my helper. Kid could fuck up a one car parade. Had to go back myself and fix everyone he touched.
White wire in 14/3 from 1st switch to light gives the light it's neutral from main source. White wire in 14/3 from light to 2nd switch will be your switch leg. Red and Black travelers tie together in light box and passes through. The hot at 1st switch goes to common side of switch. Here in Missouri we call that a half-ass 3 way. Not sure of technical term for it lol
@@kaseyatwell1640
Switch 1: white to neut, to fixture, red& blk travelers
Switch 2 red & white travelers black is switch leg back to fixture.
your graphics are getting better every video. Love it❤👍👍 Rock your stuff... thank you for ALL you do👍👍😎
Hello and thank you for your videos , very solid. I have a question, how can I add a receptacle to a 3 way switch in my house if I don’t know where is the hot or the leg. Can I add a receptacle in any side of the 3 way? So far I added the receptacle, but works with only one switch…. If I flip one of the switches, it will turn on or off the receptacle. How can I identify the leg or the hot?
Hell ya. Did me a dead end in garage cuz new door opens other side. I labeled it good for future, didn’t know it was a real thing tho lol. Thanks for advice
So glad you have a digital white board now, much better
I just checked the NEC Handbook (2017), Article 200.7(C)(1). Another commentor is correct. For cables (MC, Romex), the white wire can be used and re-identified as ungrounded, if a switch supply or traveler in a single pole 3-way / 4-way switch loop, but not a switch leg. Interestingly, it doesn't prohibit all switch legs from being white wire (from a cable). Some people will say the switch leg should never be white, but that's not in the code (2017).
Also the white wire can be used and re-identified as a hot, when used to power a straight 240V load, such as a water heater, baseboard heater, or a NEMA 6-20R typically used for larger window AC units and larger electric heaters.
@@Sparky-ww5re Yep, if it's cable.
When it comes to the conduit fill and wire count there have been several times ive had to have 1/2" emt to a single switch but dont want to have another conduit come out of the switch leg side. What ive done is what i was taught is called a cold switched 3way....might be named wrong but this is where you have power and switche leg on the same side. All you do is tie your common wire into power right away which send the piwer side to the switch thats a die/ alone then wrap your switch leg on the travelers.