I’m a chick who’s been introduced to competitive games at abt 9yo and i honestly would love a world in which hopping on r6 with all of my female friends would be as common of an event as a group of guys doing the same thing. Honestly it’s pretty sad. A lot more women would enjoy more “violent games” and just gaming in general (and be way better skilled and be able to adapt to new games faster) if they have been introduced to gaming at a younger age. But unfortunately societal standards make young children conform pretty harshly (imo parents are way more likely to buy , for example, a gaming console for their son instead of their daughter) Also, what I believe is another important issue to discuss is the social circle one grows up in. Since young kids tend to gravitate towards friend groups of the same gender, and how gaming has never been popularized with girls, it’s way harder for one to begin this journey by herself. I bet almost all of you started playing a new game in order to be able to play with your close friends. Unfortunately, that mostly doesn’t happen in full female friend groups.
Seems like a rational argument. I myself started playing league of legends solely because my friends were playing it. That gives me some more perspective about this matter.
I am 37 and got my first computer at the age of 14. And I was only allowed to play for 1 hour per day for years lol. Now i am a game developer and a committed gamer and believe me, age has nothing to do with how good a gamer you become. It's simply about that women don't like to compete, or at least not to the point where men do. You are not lamer than men, just different. So don't blame men for this, blame god for creating us different lol.
@@danielocsai36 insanely weird comment, of course women compete. And not even a small minority, women absolutely compete just as much as men do with each other. And arguably, you'd probably seem less competitive than a lot of young women today.
As someone who started playing league when I was young I definitely agree that if it wasnt for my dad and introducing me I would not have found it. I thought most girls just were not into that type of game, but once I introduced my friends I realized its just that we dont get exposed to it and not that we dont enjoy it
Thanks for this video, as a woman I identified with everything you said. I also started as support, I had to change my ingame name bcos of the harassment even in pisslow elo and non ranked games lol. And from hearing the same thing over and over I kinda started to believe that maybe I was indeed worse just for my gender. This video me feel a lot better, more motivated and seen. Keep up the good work! ❤
There are biological factors that we have a lot of data and studies about that the guy didn't went over or even remotely addressed. Social factors are there and harassment suck, but there is likely an interplay of both social and biological factors here when it comes to the 2 sexes.
Really nice video dude. 100/10 underrated million of views deserved. My gf has been a gamer all her life and shes ACTUALLY CRACKED. High elo in wild rift, insane at tft, speedruns mario kart. Women just dont play as much pc games isolated in their mancaves. Its way easier to just play mobile games on the train while going to school every day. A women isolating herself is seen as weird but a guy doing so is seen as normal, there are a lot of social thing happening as well.
I know a few female gamers, the only one who does not play support is a foulmouth tomboyish girl who lives in a single mother household which lacks men and her mother is a rather hot temper person too, affecting her as a whole as a tomboyish type of girl. She definitely isnt worse than me when she games( we duo from time to time and she did her job well as an Ahri player). She still leans toward Female characters though as i noticed. Still, her friend social circle does not play game, or plays it casually, not competitive lol. This does make her eventually losing interest, as however close we were as a male friend for her, i wasnt in her main social friend group so she eventually quits to a more casual game after 2-3 years playing
the peer reviewed article is not entirely correct afaik (both the sources for it are dead and i couldn't look the individual studies apart from no 23) but the 23rd reference and the quantic foundry article both state that while yes it is technically 50 50 it is very heavily sqewed by match 3 and family/farm sim genres which are dominated by women standing at 70%. In MOBA titles like league the % falls down to roughly 10%. Funnily enough one of the quantic foundry studies disagress with your point at 2:25 quote "For women, Completion (get all stars/collectibles, complete all missions) and Fantasy (being someone else, somewhere else) are the most common primary motivations. This is personal opinion but i disagree with vaevictis gaming team was made to show women can compete with male players but rather because they needed a team to stay in LCL and used them as a publicity stunt. But overall great video with really good sourcing and editing and fairly unbiased way of talking about it
thanks a lot for the comment and kind words :D yeah like i stated in the video, it seems so far "all female teams" in pro play are purely used for the gimmick, while marketing them as the first step towards equality when in reality it's just for publicity
well you miss important topics like spatial abilities and how competitive someone can be , where men are higher in both . these 2 are really important in games that require mechanics and have very high competition and are highly demanding.
@@lolsnowball_ Yes, there are Gender Differences in Cognitive domains (tho talking about General Intelligence is a bit more controversial), and Spatial Skills is one of the domains where we can see the most higher and consistent gap. We also know that Action Videogames improve Spatial Skills (hence females do show a lot of improvement after training, but they consistently perform worse than males for those task, even in other mammal species), which suggest that such games do make use of such cognitive skills. Some of such differences are already thought to be correlated to certain biological traits. But debate about the presence of potential inherent advantages of one gender over the other probably end even before we touch complex cognitive domains. Again, i'm free to have an in depth convo with you. -Gender, videogames and navigation in virtual space by Suzanne De Castlle -Gender and Video Game Performance, Linn Brown -Action Video Gaming and Cognitive Control: Playing First Person Shooter Games Is Associated with Improved Action Cascading but Not Inhibition, Laura Steenbergen -Computerizing the Mental Rotations Test: Are gender differences maintained? By John S. Monahan -Sexual selection and sex differences in spatial cognition by David C.Geary -Gender Differences in Large-Scale and Small-Scale Spatial Ability: A Systematic Review Based on Behavioral and Neuroimaging Research Li Yuan u -Sex Differences in Spatial Cognition, Computational Fluency, and Arithmetical Reasoning David C. Geary -Sex differences, or not, in spatial cognition in albino rats: acute stress is the key Anjanette P.Harris -Sex Differences in Spatial Cognition Are Not Caused by Isolation Housing Anjanette P. Harris -Sex differences in a chronometric mental rotation test with cube figures: a behavioral, electroencephalography, and eye-tracking pilot study Clara Scheer -Sex differences in spatial navigation and perception in human adolescents and emerging adults Jennifer Tropp Sneider -Comparison of Cognitive Functions Between Male and Female Medical Students: A Pilot Study Namrata Upadhayay -Gender and Gaming: A Literature Review Danae Romrell (this studies give other findings on mental rotation differences) -Positive Effects of Videogame Use on Visuospatial Competencies: The Impact of Visualization Style in Preadolescents and Adolescents Luca Milani -Videogames and spatial skills: An exploratory study Diana Gagnon -Sex differences in a chronometric mental rotation test with cube figures: a behavioral, electroencephalography, and eye-tracking pilot study -A Meta-Analysis on Gender Differences in Mental Rotation Ability Measured by the Purdue Spatial Visualization Tests: Visualization of Rotations (PSVT:R) Yukiko Maeda -Sex differences in spatial cognition, computational fluency, and arithmetical reasoning, D C Geary -Spatial Visualization, Visual Imagery, and Mathematical Problem Solving of Students With Varying Abilities by Delinda van Garderen -Assessing Mental Rotation Ability in a Virtual Environment with an Oculus Rift Cyrus K Foroughi -Sex Differences in Visual Motion Processing Scott O. Murray -The cognitive differences between men and women STANDFORD Official statement -Sex differences in visuospatial processing Juan C Castro-Alonso -Different cognitive abilities displayed by action video gamers and non-gamers Magdalena Kowal -Intelligence and video games: Beyond “brain-games” M.A.Quirogaa -A new look at the cognitive neuroscience of video game play Gillian Dale -Thalamic Functional Connectivity during Spatial long-Term Memory and the Role of Sex, Dylan S. Spets -Tracing the origins of the STEM gender gap: The contribution of childhood spatial skills Jing Tian Gender differences in the mesocorticolimbic system during computer game-play Video Games and Spatial Cognition - Ian Spence, Jing Feng, 2010 - Sage Journals
You're certainly either wrong or misled about team siren to a degree, at least regarding the video. None of the women had any creative decision making power regarding it, it was all done almost TO them by a PR team who had no clue what was going on and was completely uninterested in letting the women speak for themselves. Your statements over the team breaking up over "drama" and "infighting" are also pretty unfair- they received so much harassment from fans, they were shoved onto the world stage when they knew they would get stomped, it was a ridiculously unfair situation, and I think a genuinely objective look at them and their history should probably just yield pity for these women who just wanted to play league as friends. I don't know much about sol invictus, but your lack of interest in digging up and presenting actual fact leads me to believe they you're likely wrong there, ironically. Your more factual analyses, I do agree with, though I wish you'd gone a step further- I'm incredibly grateful for you adding your voice to the conversation, especially to point out that women do indeed improve at the same rate as men, but lean towards support due to the circumstances of generally being newer players. I just wish you'd take more time to point out WHY it's the case, beyond what the articles you sourced say. While you did touch on it, women experience a genuinely staggering amount of harassment in the space of online competitive games, and I think that it is the single greatest contributor to their lack of presence within them. A woman playing league has to entirely subsume their gender, any mannerisms that indicate to everyone else in-game that they're women or else it's over. Obviously it's insane for me to write all this and I'm going to cop a lot of shit from people who think I've either stated the obvious or that I'm totally wrong and women actually have it easy in competitive games, but the truth doesn't change just because it makes you angry or uncomfortable. Keep up the good work, I hope you break all your subscriber goals!
thanks a lot for commenting and supporting! to my knowledge, the actual individual team siren members (or atleast 2 of them) stated that their team captain was very toxic and controlling of the group. that's why one of the members who was actually in the original team siren video dropped out of the team before they even started playing competitively together. she talked about this afterwards. also yes they were created by a PR team as a gimmick, however that does not take away from what their participation in the team did for the stigma of women in league. i could have definitely done a better job at encompassing all relevant information, however at a certain point i think it just becomes dependant on what the creator, in this case what i think is relevant enough to the point - in terms of the factual analysis stuff, it's actually one of if not the first time i created this type of video where i'm looking into hefty studies to draw conclusions into topics, and considering this specific topic is rarely touched on (im assuming because of the sensitive nature of it) im very proud of what i was able to create!
So truuuue. I've been playing support for 2 years now, switching between roles and trying different stuff from time to time. But never played anything besides Seraphine/Sona/Milio in ranked because I don't feel confident about my skill at all. I would love to play something less supportive and more impactfull but the thoughts of letting my team down haunt me so I just... Don't even try. P2 now, played 30 ranked games and felt bad for having some worse perfomances so just stopped. Sometimes I can't understand how some people can just 0/10 without feeling bad about that, lol My favourite male champions are Kayn and Xerath, both with 7th mastery. Enjoying every second playing them but feeling like I'm useless every time I pick them, even if stats show the opposite
I'm more afraid of letting myself down than my team. I couldn't care less about some random teammates. I do feel bad if I perform bad, but it is what it is. I focus on improving, if I improve, then good, if I don't, then I tried and there is nothing I can do to change reality. I used to be stuck bronze 5 0 LP, back when that was the lowest rank possible. Now I peaked Masters with 400 LP and I'm trying to see if I can make it to grandmaster or even challenger. I think one of the main things that hold people back in life is allowing their fear to control their actions and judgments.
It's so accurate. I am literally a girl who knows how to play, with a good microgame and macrogame, currently i started to takeranked seriously and I am going to get to diamond. The biggest obstacle I have had while climbing was sexist comments made to me by my own team and the enemy team, even just for being a woman, even though I had played the game.
I was lucky to grow up in a household where me my brother and my sister were all encouraged to play video games regardless of gender. I didn't even know there was a stereotype against women gaming until I got social media. I'm a support main simply because it's what I enjoy the most and it's a lot of fun to play my favorite role and character (rakan) while carrying games. Ignoring haters is the best way to play
Social Factors may not be the only variable. Have you ever took into account the studies that go against many of your assumptions (that is biological factors can be ruled out a priori)? For example have you ever read the study made by L. Brown titled "Gender and Videogame performance", which found that gender differences in performance in some videogames are somewhat maintained and are not nullified even when we account and adjust for training hours and other social factors? Are you aware that average Gender Differences in various Cognitive tasks have been discovered for a long while now (which some of such men or women's advantages coincidently match with the size of the brain regions associated with those tasks...size that was different from birth) ? Are you aware that more recently some of such tests have been computerized and structured like videogames but despite that Gender Differences have been maintained? Do you know the differences that influence the motivational states of men and women? The neurochemical differences and biomarkers that seems to underlying/correlates with some of such mecchanisms (such as differences in seratonin concentration and dopamine production between men and women or concentration of specific receptors)? Are you aware that such differences between Genders are significant enough that need to be accounted in Neuropharmacology? Can any of your social explainations explain why such differences emerge already in the womb? The fact that "Men are more competitive" (even if it will be more precise to state that they have some different levels of certain motivational states) isn't a statement that originated in a vacuum. Beyond Evolutionary theories, we also have biochemical backing to think that this can be a reasonable possibility. Spoiler: yes, s*x chromosomes and s*xual hormones affect brain activity and development, with Androgens such Testosterone being able to influence Dopaminergic pathways (i.e. they increase Dopamine production more effectively). This also have an impact in motivational states and s**ual behaviours, and it seems the reason on why women are more suscetible to depression (since Men also have 50% more seratonin than them). If having higher and more frequent Motivation correlate with better performance and Training amount, then you already have a biological advantage by MEN even BEFORE we talk about more complex cognitive differences. So overall, yes, what a person have back down in their pants CAN reasonably and literally affect what they have up there in their head.
I'm a female league player who has been playing casually since 2013, but only recently got into ranked and watching competitive play. I've tried to find some great female role models to watch in my down time, but a lot of them are support, where i like mid lane and top lane. A lot of them market themselves as E-girls, nothing wrong with that I just don't like it. A lot of them have a high squeaky voice which i can't listen to for long periods of time. Or a lot of them only make short form content and I don't see a lot of gameplay. What I'm getting at here is the women in the league space also seem to be advertising to men as there is still the larger male player base, wich makes it hard to connect to as a woman. I just want to watch a woman with a similar play style to me rank up and have fun :D.
Thanks for looking into such a sensitive topic and leaving your input on it. I wonder if all of the female streamers that are only doing it as a profession and not playing competitively are a contributing factor. I’m sure the statistics will change as we leave behind old stereotypes and misconceptions. 😊
You can ask female gamers, why and you will get a better answer than reading those articles. Let's go! :) Two main reasons, why women do not prefer multiplayer (regardless of brutality OR competitiveness - loved both): 1) HARASSMENT --> no fun playing with randoms. Example: The study stated that female player quit games earlier for MMOs. Several MMOs force in the late-game TEAM-events (dungeons for better loot and faster leveling). As a female player you need to think, if you want to risk being harassed for no good reason or quit the game while it was still fun. 2) ALIENATION --> you cannot use your voice, EVER. If somebody founds out you are female, you will not be treated as a normal person anymore. I do not like special treatment; Sometimes playing in a random team feels like you are an alien. Two main reasons, why women do not want to play professional, which are related to the points above: 1) The global taunt; The harassment- and hate-part will most likely increase, as you are more exposed on the internet. Of course, that happens even to males, but for females I can imagen, it might be on different level. 2) You need to start playing as early as everybody else, but finding a team which accepts you as a person is harder, simply because of your gender. It's not impossible, but as you climb, you might need to switch teams, not because you do not like them, but because of the skill level. If you are not accepted as a team member, your own performance will suffer, not because you are bad, but because the game is not fun anymore. You cannot improve further or need to find a new and better team really fast. Again, not impossible, but sounds to me like a miracle.
Transwomen undergo both the harrasment of being a woman + being a trans woman, but they still have an heigher rate of representation than women when it comes to win Open/Mixed Main S tier events....which makes no sense if you account all the social-factors you have just listed. Even if you state "well, transwomen Train from when they are little and before transistioning, while women tend to train later", this still doesn't add up, because Trans women are less than 1% of the population, while women 50% (slightly more in western countries). Due to sheer sample size, even if the amount of Young Women that played videogames at a very young age is slightly less than 1% among a population of Gamers, they should still have an achievement rate that it still higher than the one of Transwomen....which it is not the case. They don't even have HALF of the achievement rates than Transwomen : Trans women have an achievement rates of S tier Open and Mixed Gender events that is around 4-5 times higher than the one of women....which make statistically no sense under all such social hypothesis.
try not to make everything about delusional males challenge impossible trans"women" still undergo gender specific upbringing that encourages competitive spirit, independence and power. they are males and they live in a heavily patriarchal society that will still favor them no matter what they identify as, just as there are more trans"women" in politics than trans"men" XD
Also women aren't as motivated as much to be competitive, it's obvious someone's not going to do well if it doesn't matter to them. It's idiotic to make it seem like a matter of skill when it's a matter of effort.
At some point can we stop assuming there's some cultural bias that needs to be overcome and rather a reality that needs to be accepted about differences between the sexes? If the meta-analysis is accurate, even inside gaming, men are naturally more competitive and spend more time trying to become better players. That alone describes the disparity.
are men NATURALLY more competitive? or is that a characteristic that is enforced within men during their upbringing much more than in women? also, do they NATURALLY spend more time trying to improve at video games, or are men just much more exposed to gaming and have always played more?
I would say they are naturally more competitive. as to whether they spend more time trying to improve, I don't know but I would assume that since men are more competitive by nature, they would want to be better and thus try to improve more than their female counterparts. @@lolsnowball_
I think people are still being brought up in different ways because of gender. Or rather, the people who would be participating in these studies. I would fit this example and everyone I know (literally, I am not kidding or exaggerating) are still brought up to conform to gender stereotypes and shamed if they don’t. People who are in the age group to be parents to people of my age group are not open towards or even talk about race, queer(as a whole), or gender. Though I can’t say confidently for anyone but myself (even though I do believe that it is the majority and I have reasons), people still mock, use slurs and shame other’s behind closed doors and indirectly. But they don’t do it openly for fear of being judged or called out (a more personal story; when I asked my parents what was so wrong with being gay (not because I was going to argue against them, I was just a curious little kid) and why they talk so badly of them, they couldn’t answer me back, they only stopped for a while and then resumed. Because, basically (even though they would never admit or address), children’s words mean nothing and they should only listen and follow their parents.). Children are very good at understanding what their parents indirectly mean and naturally pick up behaviors and beliefs from their parents. Another important thing to note is my country, where being gay is still illegal and most of the people I referred to are part of a minority within my country.
@@lolsnowball_I think 'enforced' is harsh language. People tend to compete naturally because of necessity. An example of that is war, as bad as that sounds. There hasn't been a single society in which conflict never happened.
@@lolsnowball_ There are studies in other mammals that show a disparity in the animals' interests and behaviors between their sexes. Females naturally have different behaviors and interests than males (of course different aspects are different according to which animal we are talking about, but the point is that such disparities exist naturally). It seems safe to conclude that the same phenomena exists in humans since we are sexually dimorphic animals. The answer to your question is that both are true. Men are naturally more competetive, AND they are also more exposed to environments that makes them more competitve than their women counterparts partly BECAUSE they are naturally more competitive. Moreover, people attribute the success of certain black tribes at running marathons to their genetics that has been naturally developed and adapted to their environments. And this is a generally accepted argument that makes sense due to how evolution works. For the same reason we can also apply the same logic in saying that due to the environment that men have been exposed to across the history compared to their women counterparts (like being more pushed and expected to excel at certain competitive things to benefit the tribe/society), it's rational to assume that men have been developed to be more competitive with better traits that make them more successful at things like video games than their women counterparts. Of course all of this is speaking in general. You would still find a woman who is better than 99% of men in league, but I would bet my money that for the next coming decades, the top players will remain to be men for quite a long time EVEN if the number of players was the same, EVEN if women were more supported to play. The same applies to the disparity of skill in chess between men and women. The same applies to the gender equality paradox regarding STEM fields. Part of it is societal, but part of it is natural.
Facts my fiance, is truly not worth explaining wave managements and anything nerd tactical, but it's fine. SHE STILL HAVE FUN PLAYING AT LEAST LMAOO she likes art and skins, I wish I could go back to the less competitive days..
The "starting as support cause male friend introduced you to the game" was true for me. Also the sterotype of "girl bad" is such a pain that i'd usually pretend to be a guy, or have a male friend do the talking in-game, cause in the eyes of other players, the same idea was not even worth hearing if said by a girl, but brilliant if said by a guy :/
I am a girl who play league with my bf only. Main reason is because I am new to this game and not very good at it. Plus, the misogynistic environment in league is terrible and I don’t want to receive hate from other male players alone. Playing league with my bf feels more safe and fun.
I honestly don't care as much with people pointing towards the narrative that men are stronger than women, even in games. But I would rather say that they're good not just because they're men, but as an individual who did the work to become a good gamer. Because telling someone that they're good because men are inherently better can also be discrediting their efforts or forcing them into a narrative that they have to compete with others to be considered a man. Also goes same on the flip side: I don't really like it IF there's going to be someone to tell me that I'm bad gamer because I'm a woman. Why? It's just for the plain fact that sexism hurts both men and women because they are being recognized or nitpicked on something beyond their control. Life always presents us with many challenges that pushes us to deviate from our societal roles often to survive and adapt. We can't really use our gender as an excuse to avoid facing our challenges. We may be women with women tendencies, but it doesn't mean we can't adapt and change the way we approach things. Sometimes it's a matter of understanding how you play and what champion or gameplay will suit them. In my case, I became a better player when my team suggested me to play AP champions because it elevates my stronger points like how I manage my mana and how I'm good with timing in my attack and retreat. Despite the gender differences, both have their own advantages, weaknesses and variations based on other factors.
I already posted this as a reply but I just though it might be important to talk about. I think people are still being brought up in different ways because of gender. Or rather, the people who would be participating in these studies. I would fit this example and everyone I know (literally, I am not kidding or exaggerating) are still brought up to conform to gender stereotypes and shamed if they don’t. People who are in the age group to be parents to people of my age group are not open towards or even talk about race, queer(as a whole), or gender. Though I can’t say confidently for anyone but myself (even though I do believe that it is the majority and I have reasons), people still mock, use slurs and shame other’s behind closed doors and indirectly. But they don’t do it openly for fear of being judged or called out (a more personal story; when I asked my parents what was so wrong with being gay (not because I was going to argue against them, I was just a curious little kid) and why they talk so badly of them, they couldn’t answer me back, they only stopped for a while and then resumed. Because, basically (even though they would never admit or address), children’s words mean nothing and they should only listen and follow their parents.). Children are very good at understanding what their parents indirectly mean and naturally pick up behaviors and beliefs from their parents. Another important thing to note is my country, where being gay is still illegal and most of the people I referred to are part of a minority within my country.
Honest criticism: I think you did a wonderful job in representing Social factors and i have to give props to you for that. The fact that in the equation there are enviromental variables at play is not even a debate. Now, you did as good job in presenting Social Factors as much you did an AWFULL job in representing the presence of biological variables that can play a role in the phenomena. I would like to have a conversation with you (either in VC or written) so i can explain why i think approximating everything to "all differences in performance between men and women in videogames are just socio-enviromental" can be misleading.
@@lolsnowball_ I mean, i have specified that the conversation can be taken also in written forms (VC was a suggestion to exchange info faster), even in platforms such discord or here. It wasn't just because of "my satisfaction" but because i think as your previous replies show, that you don't know about certain stuff around the biological aspect of this topic (no offense; hence you are likely not aware about the differences of men and women reward system, which many of them cannot be explained under a social framework), while you did a relative good job with the social one. It was in effort to share ideas and also to see if your position can substain when confronted with new information and some challenging questions (same apply to my position if you would be able to address the arguments and present interesting prospectives). That's it.
Also the question 'Are Women BAD At League of Legends?' is highly suggestive and not at all scientific --> always use an open ended question. But let's say in a hypothetical world where socio-environmental wouldnt play any role, would women become as good men? The answer is obviously no. The guy in the video conveniently overlooked the most important aspect in the difference of skill level between men and women: biological traits. I mean just look at the video 'men vs women - survival island' and you have all the answers right there. A woman can become very good at chess, poker, LoL etc. but will never become the best, let alone in an all 5 female team.
@@testie__111 Exactly. Social factors and biological factors can co-exist, but in a situation where enviromental factors equalize we may still see a difference in achievements rates that is not controlled by social variables I know that stating generically "biological factors" can be annoying without specifying what exactly one refer to, hence why i wanted to give a proper explaination and info to what we are talking about, but apperently the creator of the video don't want to, so i have to simply respect that. Now, granted, i'm also not fully on board with some parts of your arguments. For example, "Men vs Women: Survival Island" can potentially expose some differences in behavioural tendencies between men and women groups, but at the end of the day it still a TV show, which it is not even appropriate for the context when we considered that is not even addressing directly gender differences in cognition (like the NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC show "Brain Games: Battle of The sexes" did in multiple episodes and were they have explained the difference giving even proper scientific explainations). Snowballbarrage made an argument using an accademic approach, meaning it is only fair to present an argument using accademic knowledge. I'm also reasonably skeptical on the poker stuff, i would need to check the skills involved in the game, because poker is a game that rely on a very high amount of luck so beyond the ones related to motivational states the presence of biological factors here seem more bordeline (for example, "recently" a woman won an Open/Mixed S-Tier event while competing with other males; She used an exploit of the game - she didn't cheat - and was able to beat the male competition ; I think she is the only cis-woman to ever won an S-Tier competition with other Top-Tier men; as far as i'm aware, no known CIS-woman ever won a final of an S-Tier event around a fighting or action-shooting videogame) I don't think it is 100% impossible for a woman to win, but definitely more unlikely (hence representation will be affected also due to biological reasons)
To put it simply : League is a competetive game , even casual games like ARAM are competetive . Women aren't as competetive as men hence they don't win or heck they don't even play that much .
Enchanter supports player base is mainly dominanted by women . Men play champs like camille and irelia while women play sona and lulu . Its kinda a rough assumption but as you said in the vid , they're naturally inclined to enjoy a certain playstyle .@@lolsnowball_
@@jadoniccryon5898yeah my girlfriend started playing league with me and at first she wanted to play champs like Irelia or Akali because she saw how flashy I was but quickly switched to support role and decided she likes healing and just getting assists way more than playing hard champs. Fully started maining soraka. I can say for sure if some girls put in the hours, they could actually improve and be better than some of the male playerbase but they just don’t put in the time to practice or learn difficult mechanics and just default to something easier or just play ARAM or use boosting services to try to prove a point. I only had 2 female friends who actually climbed to challenger by themselves, albeit they were support mains but they were actually good at the game and even played difficult supports and had game knowledge, not just spam heals and shields.
there's also the issue that league is just a badly designed game and the balance issues encourage toxicity. contrast league with chess where there are many more elite female competitors.
I feel like we should have a female tournaments or leagues like we do with olympics or soccer. Im not trying to be disrespectful, Im just saying being minority is very hard, so we first need to allow them to grow in their own pace instead of throwing them against absolute beast that are some of the best pro players. Give them few years to grow, build communities and after a while we will have more pro female gamers.If they try to immedietly break the glass ceiling, it will just fail, let em first elimanate the gap. Again im not trying to imply females has to be worse at LoL. Im a guy but im main support, I have problem playing agressively, I suck at FPSses and i dont like to play ranked cause they stress me to much, i just enjoy casual bot lane experience. With time you nca n start mesh females and males together
almost everything about the average girl league player is true for me. sup main, usually plays female champs, pretty terrible and don't play ranked bc there are too many assholes. but my boyfriend didn't recruit me into league, my girlfriend did :p
thank you for you time and effort in creating this video. Sadly I personally cant quite agree with its conclusions since you failed to examine why men are more likely to play competitive games in the first place. I agree with the notion that women who do put the hours in can beat men but your conclusion that women dont even try because of the lack of female pro players or restrictive social norms feels incomplete. this argument would maybe work for league of legends but I dont believe it holds in the larger context of non physical competitions. be it other esports old or new, chess or poker, there is a very obvious lack of female pros in the highest echelons of play.
thanks! i can definitely understand your take on the video feeling incomplete, i could have done a better job rounding everything out. to my understanding based on my research and thinking about it externally, it makes sense to me that just like in league of legends, other non physical competitions like the ones you used as examples are also part of the separation of social norms and interests between genders.
It isn't rocket science, girls just don't seem to be that interested in videogames. I'm sure there are plenty of good gamers out there but seems to me that girls prioritise other things
My dude over here not looking deep enough into what he is actually saying, as men are just physically better suited for competition in games. in the end it boils down to women just being worse at games in general compared to men but not as an absolute rule
i still disagree cze of personal experiences. its just a personal thing but yea. just like how women are bad at driving women are bad at high lvl gaming. getting gold/plat can be done by anyone. we talking about high elo and ofc Pro gamers which obv women cant just cze they cant. Tho i would rly love to see a proper research with something like money on the line so ppl would actually grind and try their best while also takin into mind the players background history. other then that i just compare others to me and i know for sure no women can be on my SoloQ lvl within the same time of exp
Terrible video, let me explain why, this whole argument of oh but more men play X is entirely a cope about % sizes, yet if I told you that chess exists and many women play it, but yes, men play it more, you won't really have a cope about this that works. Let's say you take every single female playerbase of chess since we started recording tournaments and put them together, and put a single year of men against them, you'd still have the top men outperforming the top women, so then if participation percentage is not a factor what is? well it's fairly obvious.
did you actually watch my video? there isn't just "one" argument being men play more, this is objective DATA, from multiple studies all pointing to basically the same conclusions XD!
If you can't even well articulate the point you are trying to make in text form, you probably shouldn't be criticizing other people's videos. I read over what you typed like 3 times and it's so poorly written xD
first off just because you disagree with a video that does not make the video terrible. secondly while i too would disagree with some of the conclusions reached in this video the phenomenon of men outperforming women in non physical competitions is anything but trivial to explain. you are free to offer an explanation of your own and offer proof of your own but saying "its obvious" is not helpful for anyone.
Women absolutely do not make up half of people that play video games. They just don’t. Period. I think women who participated in a study or responded to a thing are likely to be gamers because they want to feel represented in a male dominated industry, so again…they’re more apt to respond than is a woman who is just y’know…living her life. Talk to 20 male gamers that you know who are in relationships, and 19 of them will tell you that video games have caused strain in said relationship. Prove me wrong. You can’t. Women make up realistically more like 5-7% of gamers.
The underlying reasons are biological. Men and women are different, men are better at single-minded, technical tasks. Women are better at other tasks, generally social tasks. That's why women prefer games of that type as well.
14:28 This is very interesting and i'd like to believe it but honestly i have NEVER in my life seen this actually happen. I scouted and played in low level comp for a long time and probably spoken to 100s of potential teammates. I talked to a girl who isnt a support once. Also remember that comp is more social and the % of female players is actually pretty high. This is Master+ so i think that counts as being relative familiar with the game. I did meet a female Urgot top onetrick once that was mega based.
0:55 Ok sorry but already thats not true in this context. Look at the study. It doesnt say that 50% of league or even moba players are woman. Woman tend to(obligatory not all woman for people who cant read) play less competitive games so obviously the large majority of league players are male. Id bet a large sum of money that the higher elo you go the less % of players are female and the more % of female players play support. Ofc woman are not worse at video games than men but i'd say the large majority doesnt care about being good in the first place(well to be fair the large majority of male players also dont care about improvement given their actions ingame but they have the desire to feel like they are good) EDIT: Well im a dumbass and should have kept watching. mb
Never ask master 0 lp lulu main why does she has 90% wr on rengar
top tier meme
I don't get this one, can someone explain?
@@lumenart7328 most of e girls accs over dia are resultt of duo queuing with high rank bf or bf just climbing solo on it
getting boosted @@lumenart7328
I’m a chick who’s been introduced to competitive games at abt 9yo and i honestly would love a world in which hopping on r6 with all of my female friends would be as common of an event as a group of guys doing the same thing. Honestly it’s pretty sad. A lot more women would enjoy more “violent games” and just gaming in general (and be way better skilled and be able to adapt to new games faster) if they have been introduced to gaming at a younger age. But unfortunately societal standards make young children conform pretty harshly (imo parents are way more likely to buy , for example, a gaming console for their son instead of their daughter) Also, what I believe is another important issue to discuss is the social circle one grows up in. Since young kids tend to gravitate towards friend groups of the same gender, and how gaming has never been popularized with girls, it’s way harder for one to begin this journey by herself. I bet almost all of you started playing a new game in order to be able to play with your close friends. Unfortunately, that mostly doesn’t happen in full female friend groups.
yeah like my example with being in grade 6 playing call of duty with my male friends while none of the girls played it, just part of that social cycle
Seems like a rational argument. I myself started playing league of legends solely because my friends were playing it. That gives me some more perspective about this matter.
I am 37 and got my first computer at the age of 14. And I was only allowed to play for 1 hour per day for years lol. Now i am a game developer and a committed gamer and believe me, age has nothing to do with how good a gamer you become. It's simply about that women don't like to compete, or at least not to the point where men do. You are not lamer than men, just different. So don't blame men for this, blame god for creating us different lol.
@@danielocsai36 insanely weird comment, of course women compete. And not even a small minority, women absolutely compete just as much as men do with each other. And arguably, you'd probably seem less competitive than a lot of young women today.
@@Chronoboost_ ok, women compete then, and they are far more worse in gaming than men.
My guy is becoming the next Vars and i'm all for it
hey thanks brother
he seems better tbh, Vars is too much of a nerd.
nerds are hella chill@@ew4525
I love how objectively you tackled this topic, very well done
thanks i appreciate how objectively attractive you are
> Introduced to league by a friend
> Shoved into the support role
> Barely talks in chat, only pings
> MFW i play LoL like a girl
👁👄👁
As someone who started playing league when I was young I definitely agree that if it wasnt for my dad and introducing me I would not have found it. I thought most girls just were not into that type of game, but once I introduced my friends I realized its just that we dont get exposed to it and not that we dont enjoy it
yeeeee
Thanks for this video, as a woman I identified with everything you said. I also started as support, I had to change my ingame name bcos of the harassment even in pisslow elo and non ranked games lol. And from hearing the same thing over and over I kinda started to believe that maybe I was indeed worse just for my gender. This video me feel a lot better, more motivated and seen. Keep up the good work! ❤
yo thats pretty cool, glad i could help and thanks for the kind words
There are biological factors that we have a lot of data and studies about that the guy didn't went over or even remotely addressed. Social factors are there and harassment suck, but there is likely an interplay of both social and biological factors here when it comes to the 2 sexes.
Really nice video dude. 100/10 underrated million of views deserved. My gf has been a gamer all her life and shes ACTUALLY CRACKED. High elo in wild rift, insane at tft, speedruns mario kart. Women just dont play as much pc games isolated in their mancaves. Its way easier to just play mobile games on the train while going to school every day. A women isolating herself is seen as weird but a guy doing so is seen as normal, there are a lot of social thing happening as well.
yeah man, it's easy to assume things but now the datas there
and ty so much for the kind words
Anthony Evelynn first league player to have a girlfriend
;O@@brandoncubell7362
I know a few female gamers, the only one who does not play support is a foulmouth tomboyish girl who lives in a single mother household which lacks men and her mother is a rather hot temper person too, affecting her as a whole as a tomboyish type of girl. She definitely isnt worse than me when she games( we duo from time to time and she did her job well as an Ahri player). She still leans toward Female characters though as i noticed. Still, her friend social circle does not play game, or plays it casually, not competitive lol. This does make her eventually losing interest, as however close we were as a male friend for her, i wasnt in her main social friend group so she eventually quits to a more casual game after 2-3 years playing
The Peer-reviewed meta-analysis arc hitting different
everything checks out even from personal experience, makes it harder to find girls to play with too :,)
yup
the peer reviewed article is not entirely correct afaik (both the sources for it are dead and i couldn't look the individual studies apart from no 23) but the 23rd reference and the quantic foundry article both state that while yes it is technically 50 50 it is very heavily sqewed by match 3 and family/farm sim genres which are dominated by women standing at 70%. In MOBA titles like league the % falls down to roughly 10%. Funnily enough one of the quantic foundry studies disagress with your point at 2:25 quote "For women, Completion (get all stars/collectibles, complete all missions) and Fantasy (being someone else, somewhere else) are the most common primary motivations. This is personal opinion but i disagree with vaevictis gaming team was made to show women can compete with male players but rather because they needed a team to stay in LCL and used them as a publicity stunt. But overall great video with really good sourcing and editing and fairly unbiased way of talking about it
thanks a lot for the comment and kind words :D yeah like i stated in the video, it seems so far "all female teams" in pro play are purely used for the gimmick, while marketing them as the first step towards equality when in reality it's just for publicity
Fire video bro I like the team siren reference coming up and the stats ✍️
thank you brother
well you miss important topics like spatial abilities and how competitive someone can be , where men are higher in both . these 2 are really important in games that require mechanics and have very high competition and are highly demanding.
find some peer reviewed articles that back your statement
they are widely available, you can look if you are interested. gl@@lolsnowball_
helmuthnyborg.dk/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Publ_1983_Spatial-ability-in-men-and-women.pdf@@lolsnowball_
@@lolsnowball_ Yes, there are Gender Differences in Cognitive domains (tho talking about General Intelligence is a bit more controversial), and Spatial Skills is one of the domains where we can see the most higher and consistent gap.
We also know that Action Videogames improve Spatial Skills (hence females do show a lot of improvement after training, but they consistently perform worse than males for those task, even in other mammal species), which suggest that such games do make use of such cognitive skills.
Some of such differences are already thought to be correlated to certain biological traits.
But debate about the presence of potential inherent advantages of one gender over the other probably end even before we touch complex cognitive domains.
Again, i'm free to have an in depth convo with you.
-Gender, videogames and navigation in virtual space by Suzanne De Castlle
-Gender and Video Game Performance, Linn Brown
-Action Video Gaming and Cognitive Control: Playing First Person Shooter Games Is Associated with Improved Action Cascading but Not Inhibition, Laura Steenbergen
-Computerizing the Mental Rotations Test: Are gender differences maintained? By John S. Monahan
-Sexual selection and sex differences in spatial cognition by David C.Geary
-Gender Differences in Large-Scale and Small-Scale Spatial Ability: A Systematic Review Based on Behavioral and Neuroimaging Research Li Yuan u
-Sex Differences in Spatial Cognition, Computational Fluency, and Arithmetical Reasoning David C. Geary
-Sex differences, or not, in spatial cognition in albino rats: acute stress is the key Anjanette P.Harris
-Sex Differences in Spatial Cognition Are Not Caused by Isolation Housing Anjanette P. Harris
-Sex differences in a chronometric mental rotation test with cube figures: a behavioral, electroencephalography, and eye-tracking pilot study Clara Scheer
-Sex differences in spatial navigation and perception in human adolescents and emerging adults Jennifer Tropp Sneider
-Comparison of Cognitive Functions Between Male and Female Medical Students: A Pilot Study Namrata Upadhayay
-Gender and Gaming: A Literature Review Danae Romrell (this studies give other findings on mental rotation differences)
-Positive Effects of Videogame Use on Visuospatial Competencies: The Impact of Visualization Style in Preadolescents and Adolescents Luca Milani
-Videogames and spatial skills: An exploratory study Diana Gagnon
-Sex differences in a chronometric mental rotation test with cube figures: a behavioral, electroencephalography, and eye-tracking pilot study
-A Meta-Analysis on Gender Differences in Mental Rotation Ability Measured by the Purdue Spatial Visualization Tests: Visualization of Rotations (PSVT:R) Yukiko Maeda
-Sex differences in spatial cognition, computational fluency, and arithmetical reasoning, D C Geary
-Spatial Visualization, Visual Imagery, and Mathematical Problem Solving of Students With Varying Abilities by Delinda van Garderen
-Assessing Mental Rotation Ability in a Virtual Environment with an Oculus Rift Cyrus K Foroughi
-Sex Differences in Visual Motion Processing Scott O. Murray
-The cognitive differences between men and women STANDFORD Official statement
-Sex differences in visuospatial processing Juan C Castro-Alonso
-Different cognitive abilities displayed by action video gamers and non-gamers
Magdalena Kowal
-Intelligence and video games: Beyond “brain-games” M.A.Quirogaa
-A new look at the cognitive neuroscience of video game play Gillian Dale
-Thalamic Functional Connectivity during Spatial long-Term Memory and the Role of Sex, Dylan S. Spets
-Tracing the origins of the STEM gender gap: The contribution of childhood spatial skills
Jing Tian
Gender differences in the mesocorticolimbic system during computer game-play
Video Games and Spatial Cognition - Ian Spence, Jing Feng, 2010 - Sage Journals
I would like to see the peer reviewed articles and studies as well.
omg you killed it with this video!!
thanks kat :D
You're certainly either wrong or misled about team siren to a degree, at least regarding the video. None of the women had any creative decision making power regarding it, it was all done almost TO them by a PR team who had no clue what was going on and was completely uninterested in letting the women speak for themselves. Your statements over the team breaking up over "drama" and "infighting" are also pretty unfair- they received so much harassment from fans, they were shoved onto the world stage when they knew they would get stomped, it was a ridiculously unfair situation, and I think a genuinely objective look at them and their history should probably just yield pity for these women who just wanted to play league as friends. I don't know much about sol invictus, but your lack of interest in digging up and presenting actual fact leads me to believe they you're likely wrong there, ironically.
Your more factual analyses, I do agree with, though I wish you'd gone a step further- I'm incredibly grateful for you adding your voice to the conversation, especially to point out that women do indeed improve at the same rate as men, but lean towards support due to the circumstances of generally being newer players. I just wish you'd take more time to point out WHY it's the case, beyond what the articles you sourced say. While you did touch on it, women experience a genuinely staggering amount of harassment in the space of online competitive games, and I think that it is the single greatest contributor to their lack of presence within them. A woman playing league has to entirely subsume their gender, any mannerisms that indicate to everyone else in-game that they're women or else it's over.
Obviously it's insane for me to write all this and I'm going to cop a lot of shit from people who think I've either stated the obvious or that I'm totally wrong and women actually have it easy in competitive games, but the truth doesn't change just because it makes you angry or uncomfortable. Keep up the good work, I hope you break all your subscriber goals!
thanks a lot for commenting and supporting! to my knowledge, the actual individual team siren members (or atleast 2 of them) stated that their team captain was very toxic and controlling of the group. that's why one of the members who was actually in the original team siren video dropped out of the team before they even started playing competitively together. she talked about this afterwards. also yes they were created by a PR team as a gimmick, however that does not take away from what their participation in the team did for the stigma of women in league. i could have definitely done a better job at encompassing all relevant information, however at a certain point i think it just becomes dependant on what the creator, in this case what i think is relevant enough to the point - in terms of the factual analysis stuff, it's actually one of if not the first time i created this type of video where i'm looking into hefty studies to draw conclusions into topics, and considering this specific topic is rarely touched on (im assuming because of the sensitive nature of it) im very proud of what i was able to create!
So truuuue. I've been playing support for 2 years now, switching between roles and trying different stuff from time to time. But never played anything besides Seraphine/Sona/Milio in ranked because I don't feel confident about my skill at all. I would love to play something less supportive and more impactfull but the thoughts of letting my team down haunt me so I just... Don't even try. P2 now, played 30 ranked games and felt bad for having some worse perfomances so just stopped. Sometimes I can't understand how some people can just 0/10 without feeling bad about that, lol
My favourite male champions are Kayn and Xerath, both with 7th mastery. Enjoying every second playing them but feeling like I'm useless every time I pick them, even if stats show the opposite
u should be more confident and stuff
I'm more afraid of letting myself down than my team. I couldn't care less about some random teammates. I do feel bad if I perform bad, but it is what it is. I focus on improving, if I improve, then good, if I don't, then I tried and there is nothing I can do to change reality. I used to be stuck bronze 5 0 LP, back when that was the lowest rank possible. Now I peaked Masters with 400 LP and I'm trying to see if I can make it to grandmaster or even challenger. I think one of the main things that hold people back in life is allowing their fear to control their actions and judgments.
Just leaving a comment so yt can show what a fantastic content creator you are.
Keep going, u can go far
thank you brother
It's so accurate. I am literally a girl who knows how to play, with a good microgame and macrogame, currently i started to takeranked seriously and I am going to get to diamond.
The biggest obstacle I have had while climbing was sexist comments made to me by my own team and the enemy team, even just for being a woman, even though I had played the game.
imo if people flaming you affects you a lot you should just /mute all but keep pings on for information
I was lucky to grow up in a household where me my brother and my sister were all encouraged to play video games regardless of gender. I didn't even know there was a stereotype against women gaming until I got social media. I'm a support main simply because it's what I enjoy the most and it's a lot of fun to play my favorite role and character (rakan) while carrying games. Ignoring haters is the best way to play
Thanks for this video. I knew the stats and info of gender in League from 2014 and I wanted to know the actual state of it rn.
Social Factors may not be the only variable.
Have you ever took into account the studies that go against many of your assumptions (that is biological factors can be ruled out a priori)?
For example have you ever read the study made by L. Brown titled "Gender and Videogame performance", which found that gender differences in performance in some videogames are somewhat maintained and are not nullified even when we account and adjust for training hours and other social factors?
Are you aware that average Gender Differences in various Cognitive tasks have been discovered for a long while now (which some of such men or women's advantages coincidently match with the size of the brain regions associated with those tasks...size that was different from birth) ? Are you aware that more recently some of such tests have been computerized and structured like videogames but despite that Gender Differences have been maintained?
Do you know the differences that influence the motivational states of men and women? The neurochemical differences and biomarkers that seems to underlying/correlates with some of such mecchanisms (such as differences in seratonin concentration and dopamine production between men and women or concentration of specific receptors)?
Are you aware that such differences between Genders are significant enough that need to be accounted in Neuropharmacology?
Can any of your social explainations explain why such differences emerge already in the womb?
The fact that "Men are more competitive" (even if it will be more precise to state that they have some different levels of certain motivational states) isn't a statement that originated in a vacuum. Beyond Evolutionary theories, we also have biochemical backing to think that this can be a reasonable possibility.
Spoiler: yes, s*x chromosomes and s*xual hormones affect brain activity and development, with Androgens such Testosterone being able to influence Dopaminergic pathways (i.e. they increase Dopamine production more effectively).
This also have an impact in motivational states and s**ual behaviours, and it seems the reason on why women are more suscetible to depression (since Men also have 50% more seratonin than them).
If having higher and more frequent Motivation correlate with better performance and Training amount, then you already have a biological advantage by MEN even BEFORE we talk about more complex cognitive differences.
So overall, yes, what a person have back down in their pants CAN reasonably and literally affect what they have up there in their head.
Very reasonble comment. Thank you.
I'm a female league player who has been playing casually since 2013, but only recently got into ranked and watching competitive play. I've tried to find some great female role models to watch in my down time, but a lot of them are support, where i like mid lane and top lane. A lot of them market themselves as E-girls, nothing wrong with that I just don't like it. A lot of them have a high squeaky voice which i can't listen to for long periods of time. Or a lot of them only make short form content and I don't see a lot of gameplay. What I'm getting at here is the women in the league space also seem to be advertising to men as there is still the larger male player base, wich makes it hard to connect to as a woman. I just want to watch a woman with a similar play style to me rank up and have fun :D.
:/
Very well made video! 🎉 A lot of interesting things I would have never thought!
thanks coconut
really good video man :)
thanks bro
Thanks for looking into such a sensitive topic and leaving your input on it. I wonder if all of the female streamers that are only doing it as a profession and not playing competitively are a contributing factor. I’m sure the statistics will change as we leave behind old stereotypes and misconceptions. 😊
You can ask female gamers, why and you will get a better answer than reading those articles. Let's go! :)
Two main reasons, why women do not prefer multiplayer (regardless of brutality OR competitiveness - loved both):
1) HARASSMENT --> no fun playing with randoms. Example: The study stated that female player quit games earlier for MMOs. Several MMOs force in the late-game TEAM-events (dungeons for better loot and faster leveling). As a female player you need to think, if you want to risk being harassed for no good reason or quit the game while it was still fun.
2) ALIENATION --> you cannot use your voice, EVER. If somebody founds out you are female, you will not be treated as a normal person anymore. I do not like special treatment; Sometimes playing in a random team feels like you are an alien.
Two main reasons, why women do not want to play professional, which are related to the points above:
1) The global taunt; The harassment- and hate-part will most likely increase, as you are more exposed on the internet. Of course, that happens even to males, but for females I can imagen, it might be on different level.
2) You need to start playing as early as everybody else, but finding a team which accepts you as a person is harder, simply because of your gender. It's not impossible, but as you climb, you might need to switch teams, not because you do not like them, but because of the skill level. If you are not accepted as a team member, your own performance will suffer, not because you are bad, but because the game is not fun anymore. You cannot improve further or need to find a new and better team really fast. Again, not impossible, but sounds to me like a miracle.
Transwomen undergo both the harrasment of being a woman + being a trans woman, but they still have an heigher rate of representation than women when it comes to win Open/Mixed Main S tier events....which makes no sense if you account all the social-factors you have just listed. Even if you state "well, transwomen Train from when they are little and before transistioning, while women tend to train later", this still doesn't add up, because Trans women are less than 1% of the population, while women 50% (slightly more in western countries). Due to sheer sample size, even if the amount of Young Women that played videogames at a very young age is slightly less than 1% among a population of Gamers, they should still have an achievement rate that it still higher than the one of Transwomen....which it is not the case. They don't even have HALF of the achievement rates than Transwomen : Trans women have an achievement rates of S tier Open and Mixed Gender events that is around 4-5 times higher than the one of women....which make statistically no sense under all such social hypothesis.
try not to make everything about delusional males challenge impossible
trans"women" still undergo gender specific upbringing that encourages competitive spirit, independence and power. they are males and they live in a heavily patriarchal society that will still favor them no matter what they identify as, just as there are more trans"women" in politics than trans"men" XD
The main thing I care about here is that women almost exclusively play female champions.
That is really a shame tbh.
yeah that was actually insane to see, 97%! XDD
Also women aren't as motivated as much to be competitive, it's obvious someone's not going to do well if it doesn't matter to them. It's idiotic to make it seem like a matter of skill when it's a matter of effort.
well this video's purpose was to see what it was a matter of :D
At some point can we stop assuming there's some cultural bias that needs to be overcome and rather a reality that needs to be accepted about differences between the sexes?
If the meta-analysis is accurate, even inside gaming, men are naturally more competitive and spend more time trying to become better players. That alone describes the disparity.
are men NATURALLY more competitive? or is that a characteristic that is enforced within men during their upbringing much more than in women? also, do they NATURALLY spend more time trying to improve at video games, or are men just much more exposed to gaming and have always played more?
I would say they are naturally more competitive. as to whether they spend more time trying to improve, I don't know but I would assume that since men are more competitive by nature, they would want to be better and thus try to improve more than their female counterparts. @@lolsnowball_
I think people are still being brought up in different ways because of gender. Or rather, the people who would be participating in these studies. I would fit this example and everyone I know (literally, I am not kidding or exaggerating) are still brought up to conform to gender stereotypes and shamed if they don’t. People who are in the age group to be parents to people of my age group are not open towards or even talk about race, queer(as a whole), or gender. Though I can’t say confidently for anyone but myself (even though I do believe that it is the majority and I have reasons), people still mock, use slurs and shame other’s behind closed doors and indirectly. But they don’t do it openly for fear of being judged or called out (a more personal story; when I asked my parents what was so wrong with being gay (not because I was going to argue against them, I was just a curious little kid) and why they talk so badly of them, they couldn’t answer me back, they only stopped for a while and then resumed. Because, basically (even though they would never admit or address), children’s words mean nothing and they should only listen and follow their parents.). Children are very good at understanding what their parents indirectly mean and naturally pick up behaviors and beliefs from their parents. Another important thing to note is my country, where being gay is still illegal and most of the people I referred to are part of a minority within my country.
@@lolsnowball_I think 'enforced' is harsh language. People tend to compete naturally because of necessity. An example of that is war, as bad as that sounds. There hasn't been a single society in which conflict never happened.
@@lolsnowball_ There are studies in other mammals that show a disparity in the animals' interests and behaviors between their sexes. Females naturally have different behaviors and interests than males (of course different aspects are different according to which animal we are talking about, but the point is that such disparities exist naturally). It seems safe to conclude that the same phenomena exists in humans since we are sexually dimorphic animals. The answer to your question is that both are true. Men are naturally more competetive, AND they are also more exposed to environments that makes them more competitve than their women counterparts partly BECAUSE they are naturally more competitive.
Moreover, people attribute the success of certain black tribes at running marathons to their genetics that has been naturally developed and adapted to their environments. And this is a generally accepted argument that makes sense due to how evolution works. For the same reason we can also apply the same logic in saying that due to the environment that men have been exposed to across the history compared to their women counterparts (like being more pushed and expected to excel at certain competitive things to benefit the tribe/society), it's rational to assume that men have been developed to be more competitive with better traits that make them more successful at things like video games than their women counterparts.
Of course all of this is speaking in general. You would still find a woman who is better than 99% of men in league, but I would bet my money that for the next coming decades, the top players will remain to be men for quite a long time EVEN if the number of players was the same, EVEN if women were more supported to play. The same applies to the disparity of skill in chess between men and women. The same applies to the gender equality paradox regarding STEM fields. Part of it is societal, but part of it is natural.
Facts my fiance, is truly not worth explaining wave managements and anything nerd tactical, but it's fine. SHE STILL HAVE FUN PLAYING AT LEAST LMAOO she likes art and skins, I wish I could go back to the less competitive days..
haha
awesome video!!
thanks bro
insanely well made video, really good work man keep it up
thank you 🙏
this video could 100% be a thesis no joke
respect bro
The "starting as support cause male friend introduced you to the game" was true for me. Also the sterotype of "girl bad" is such a pain that i'd usually pretend to be a guy, or have a male friend do the talking in-game, cause in the eyes of other players, the same idea was not even worth hearing if said by a girl, but brilliant if said by a guy :/
I am a girl who play league with my bf only. Main reason is because I am new to this game and not very good at it. Plus, the misogynistic environment in league is terrible and I don’t want to receive hate from other male players alone. Playing league with my bf feels more safe and fun.
video games are for fun! whatever makes you have the most fun is what you should do 🎉🎉
I honestly don't care as much with people pointing towards the narrative that men are stronger than women, even in games. But I would rather say that they're good not just because they're men, but as an individual who did the work to become a good gamer. Because telling someone that they're good because men are inherently better can also be discrediting their efforts or forcing them into a narrative that they have to compete with others to be considered a man.
Also goes same on the flip side: I don't really like it IF there's going to be someone to tell me that I'm bad gamer because I'm a woman.
Why? It's just for the plain fact that sexism hurts both men and women because they are being recognized or nitpicked on something beyond their control.
Life always presents us with many challenges that pushes us to deviate from our societal roles often to survive and adapt. We can't really use our gender as an excuse to avoid facing our challenges.
We may be women with women tendencies, but it doesn't mean we can't adapt and change the way we approach things. Sometimes it's a matter of understanding how you play and what champion or gameplay will suit them. In my case, I became a better player when my team suggested me to play AP champions because it elevates my stronger points like how I manage my mana and how I'm good with timing in my attack and retreat.
Despite the gender differences, both have their own advantages, weaknesses and variations based on other factors.
I already posted this as a reply but I just though it might be important to talk about.
I think people are still being brought up in different ways because of gender. Or rather, the people who would be participating in these studies. I would fit this example and everyone I know (literally, I am not kidding or exaggerating) are still brought up to conform to gender stereotypes and shamed if they don’t. People who are in the age group to be parents to people of my age group are not open towards or even talk about race, queer(as a whole), or gender. Though I can’t say confidently for anyone but myself (even though I do believe that it is the majority and I have reasons), people still mock, use slurs and shame other’s behind closed doors and indirectly. But they don’t do it openly for fear of being judged or called out (a more personal story; when I asked my parents what was so wrong with being gay (not because I was going to argue against them, I was just a curious little kid) and why they talk so badly of them, they couldn’t answer me back, they only stopped for a while and then resumed. Because, basically (even though they would never admit or address), children’s words mean nothing and they should only listen and follow their parents.). Children are very good at understanding what their parents indirectly mean and naturally pick up behaviors and beliefs from their parents. Another important thing to note is my country, where being gay is still illegal and most of the people I referred to are part of a minority within my country.
Honest criticism: I think you did a wonderful job in representing Social factors and i have to give props to you for that. The fact that in the equation there are enviromental variables at play is not even a debate.
Now, you did as good job in presenting Social Factors as much you did an AWFULL job in representing the presence of biological variables that can play a role in the phenomena.
I would like to have a conversation with you (either in VC or written) so i can explain why i think approximating everything to "all differences in performance between men and women in videogames are just socio-enviromental" can be misleading.
i appreciate the comment and support but unfortunately i dont have time to call people i dont know for their satisfaction
@@lolsnowball_ I mean, i have specified that the conversation can be taken also in written forms (VC was a suggestion to exchange info faster), even in platforms such discord or here.
It wasn't just because of "my satisfaction" but because i think as your previous replies show, that you don't know about certain stuff around the biological aspect of this topic (no offense; hence you are likely not aware about the differences of men and women reward system, which many of them cannot be explained under a social framework), while you did a relative good job with the social one.
It was in effort to share ideas and also to see if your position can substain when confronted with new information and some challenging questions (same apply to my position if you would be able to address the arguments and present interesting prospectives). That's it.
Also the question 'Are Women BAD At League of Legends?' is highly suggestive and not at all scientific --> always use an open ended question. But let's say in a hypothetical world where socio-environmental wouldnt play any role, would women become as good men? The answer is obviously no. The guy in the video conveniently overlooked the most important aspect in the difference of skill level between men and women: biological traits. I mean just look at the video 'men vs women - survival island' and you have all the answers right there. A woman can become very good at chess, poker, LoL etc. but will never become the best, let alone in an all 5 female team.
@@testie__111 Exactly. Social factors and biological factors can co-exist, but in a situation where enviromental factors equalize we may still see a difference in achievements rates that is not controlled by social variables
I know that stating generically "biological factors" can be annoying without specifying what exactly one refer to, hence why i wanted to give a proper explaination and info to what we are talking about, but apperently the creator of the video don't want to, so i have to simply respect that.
Now, granted, i'm also not fully on board with some parts of your arguments.
For example, "Men vs Women: Survival Island" can potentially expose some differences in behavioural tendencies between men and women groups, but at the end of the day it still a TV show, which it is not even appropriate for the context when we considered that is not even addressing directly gender differences in cognition (like the NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC show "Brain Games: Battle of The sexes" did in multiple episodes and were they have explained the difference giving even proper scientific explainations). Snowballbarrage made an argument using an accademic approach, meaning it is only fair to present an argument using accademic knowledge.
I'm also reasonably skeptical on the poker stuff, i would need to check the skills involved in the game, because poker is a game that rely on a very high amount of luck so beyond the ones related to motivational states the presence of biological factors here seem more bordeline (for example, "recently" a woman won an Open/Mixed S-Tier event while competing with other males; She used an exploit of the game - she didn't cheat - and was able to beat the male competition ; I think she is the only cis-woman to ever won an S-Tier competition with other Top-Tier men; as far as i'm aware, no known CIS-woman ever won a final of an S-Tier event around a fighting or action-shooting videogame)
I don't think it is 100% impossible for a woman to win, but definitely more unlikely (hence representation will be affected also due to biological reasons)
To put it simply : League is a competetive game , even casual games like ARAM are competetive . Women aren't as competetive as men hence they don't win or heck they don't even play that much .
not quite
Enchanter supports player base is mainly dominanted by women . Men play champs like camille and irelia while women play sona and lulu . Its kinda a rough assumption but as you said in the vid , they're naturally inclined to enjoy a certain playstyle .@@lolsnowball_
@@jadoniccryon5898yeah my girlfriend started playing league with me and at first she wanted to play champs like Irelia or Akali because she saw how flashy I was but quickly switched to support role and decided she likes healing and just getting assists way more than playing hard champs. Fully started maining soraka. I can say for sure if some girls put in the hours, they could actually improve and be better than some of the male playerbase but they just don’t put in the time to practice or learn difficult mechanics and just default to something easier or just play ARAM or use boosting services to try to prove a point. I only had 2 female friends who actually climbed to challenger by themselves, albeit they were support mains but they were actually good at the game and even played difficult supports and had game knowledge, not just spam heals and shields.
great explanation , i do agree with you .@@zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-z7i
there's also the issue that league is just a badly designed game and the balance issues encourage toxicity. contrast league with chess where there are many more elite female competitors.
I feel like we should have a female tournaments or leagues like we do with olympics or soccer.
Im not trying to be disrespectful, Im just saying being minority is very hard, so we first need to allow them to grow in their own pace instead of throwing them against absolute beast that are some of the best pro players.
Give them few years to grow, build communities and after a while we will have more pro female gamers.If they try to immedietly break the glass ceiling, it will just fail, let em first elimanate the gap.
Again im not trying to imply females has to be worse at LoL. Im a guy but im main support, I have problem playing agressively, I suck at FPSses and i dont like to play ranked cause they stress me to much, i just enjoy casual bot lane experience.
With time you nca n start mesh females and males together
almost everything about the average girl league player is true for me. sup main, usually plays female champs, pretty terrible and don't play ranked bc there are too many assholes. but my boyfriend didn't recruit me into league, my girlfriend did :p
plot twist at the end there
thank you for you time and effort in creating this video. Sadly I personally cant quite agree with its conclusions since you failed to examine why men are more likely to play competitive games in the first place.
I agree with the notion that women who do put the hours in can beat men but your conclusion that women dont even try because of the lack of female pro players or restrictive social norms feels incomplete. this argument would maybe work for league of legends but I dont believe it holds in the larger context of non physical competitions. be it other esports old or new, chess or poker, there is a very obvious lack of female pros in the highest echelons of play.
thanks! i can definitely understand your take on the video feeling incomplete, i could have done a better job rounding everything out. to my understanding based on my research and thinking about it externally, it makes sense to me that just like in league of legends, other non physical competitions like the ones you used as examples are also part of the separation of social norms and interests between genders.
11 Dislikes are from Andrew Tate and his braincells 🗣💯
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i wanted to hate watch but it's a really great video good job
:D
It isn't rocket science, girls just don't seem to be that interested in videogames. I'm sure there are plenty of good gamers out there but seems to me that girls prioritise other things
My dude over here not looking deep enough into what he is actually saying, as men are just physically better suited for competition in games. in the end it boils down to women just being worse at games in general compared to men but not as an absolute rule
well what can I say
women☕☕😹
and plus Women only play simle games or
Cooking games
Yes
thanks
i still disagree cze of personal experiences. its just a personal thing but yea. just like how women are bad at driving women are bad at high lvl gaming. getting gold/plat can be done by anyone. we talking about high elo and ofc Pro gamers which obv women cant just cze they cant.
Tho i would rly love to see a proper research with something like money on the line so ppl would actually grind and try their best while also takin into mind the players background history.
other then that i just compare others to me and i know for sure no women can be on my SoloQ lvl within the same time of exp
Terrible video, let me explain why, this whole argument of oh but more men play X is entirely a cope about % sizes, yet if I told you that chess exists and many women play it, but yes, men play it more, you won't really have a cope about this that works.
Let's say you take every single female playerbase of chess since we started recording tournaments and put them together, and put a single year of men against them, you'd still have the top men outperforming the top women, so then if participation percentage is not a factor what is? well it's fairly obvious.
did you actually watch my video? there isn't just "one" argument being men play more, this is objective DATA, from multiple studies all pointing to basically the same conclusions XD!
@@lolsnowball_ Yes, hence the saying "Figures don't lie, but liars figure."
If you can't even well articulate the point you are trying to make in text form, you probably shouldn't be criticizing other people's videos. I read over what you typed like 3 times and it's so poorly written xD
"the guy"
Lol
first off just because you disagree with a video that does not make the video terrible.
secondly while i too would disagree with some of the conclusions reached in this video the phenomenon of men outperforming women in non physical competitions is anything but trivial to explain. you are free to offer an explanation of your own and offer proof of your own but saying "its obvious" is not helpful for anyone.
any woman add me
Yes!
Yes🗿
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"Both genders develop skill at the same rate", bs. Bro, cmon, I know you don't wanna sound rude, but yeah, we know how it is.
LOL me presenting multiple studies all leading to the same answer, you: nahh cmon
Women absolutely do not make up half of people that play video games. They just don’t. Period. I think women who participated in a study or responded to a thing are likely to be gamers because they want to feel represented in a male dominated industry, so again…they’re more apt to respond than is a woman who is just y’know…living her life.
Talk to 20 male gamers that you know who are in relationships, and 19 of them will tell you that video games have caused strain in said relationship. Prove me wrong. You can’t. Women make up realistically more like 5-7% of gamers.
The same reason man are better at chess too ....man are just more competetive and better at everything
The underlying reasons are biological. Men and women are different, men are better at single-minded, technical tasks. Women are better at other tasks, generally social tasks. That's why women prefer games of that type as well.
😂😂
14:28 This is very interesting and i'd like to believe it but honestly i have NEVER in my life seen this actually happen. I scouted and played in low level comp for a long time and probably spoken to 100s of potential teammates. I talked to a girl who isnt a support once. Also remember that comp is more social and the % of female players is actually pretty high. This is Master+ so i think that counts as being relative familiar with the game. I did meet a female Urgot top onetrick once that was mega based.
0:55 Ok sorry but already thats not true in this context. Look at the study. It doesnt say that 50% of league or even moba players are woman. Woman tend to(obligatory not all woman for people who cant read) play less competitive games so obviously the large majority of league players are male. Id bet a large sum of money that the higher elo you go the less % of players are female and the more % of female players play support. Ofc woman are not worse at video games than men but i'd say the large majority doesnt care about being good in the first place(well to be fair the large majority of male players also dont care about improvement given their actions ingame but they have the desire to feel like they are good)
EDIT: Well im a dumbass and should have kept watching. mb