Smart or Dumb? We Put a Wind Generator on Top of Our Mast - Ep 58 Sailing Luckyfish
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2024
- This week we Install a state-of-the-art Rutland 1200 Wind Generator on top of our main mast and run into unexpected problems. After 6 months of testing and more than 2,000 miles we are more than impressed by the output but still need to refine the installation.
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We have been wrapped with the output, especially at night. It definitely does more work up there, alot more. Particularly in anchorages tucked in close to a beach where the wind would just pass over too high for a lower mounting. But, we are yet to find the source of the knocking sound... or try eliminating the hum. We'd really appreciate any suggestions you may have - and will be trying them too! Give it a Like, Sub, you know what to do :-) Thank you for watching
Just sent you an email. Figured out how to email I think? Anyway pay attention to the way detail C is on page 41 I think on my WindX generator manual. I know its not the same situation you have but I think you will figure it out from looking at the rubber mounting bolts shown. You will have to put rubber on top of the plate mount then bolt it down to mast.
Vibration is being transferred form the top of the bolts contacted to the top of the plate. The connection needs to be isolated from the mass. You also need rubber on the top of the plate. Use lock nuts so you only have to snug it down.If you torque the bolts to tights the vibration will transfer down the mass. Also if the rubber is hard not soft it will also transfer the vibration. It is the same concept as motor mounts on a car or airplanes. Also the rubber should be more like grommets, covering the whole plate with rubber just gives the vibration more contact points to the mass to transfer the vibration.
Hi Stewart. We will get this sorted the next time we are in the same bay.
'Til then, Vibration transfer issues should always be secondary to actually stopping the vibration in the first place. It's coming from the spinning parts of the unit of course. The blade has to be balanced in two axes. Any little bend in the hub can cause a balance problem as well as having one blade heavier then the others. I will be uploading a "balance the blade" video sometime this season. I'll add it to my DIY wind generator playlist. ua-cam.com/play/PLsT7_jPsZM5oZeMUi5ejGozVTHm83S3-7.html
The knocking sounds like a balance issue, the hum could be bearings or gears, the mast is amplifying all of it. Given the small footprint of your mounting base, I don't know if rubber mounts are going to be the best solution because you will end up with a lot of flex, you might be better served with a vibration damping mounting post, double tubes one inside the other with a layer of rubber between, one tube attached to the generator, the other to the mast head.
1) THE BOLTS transfer as they are not suspended from the metal.
2) Need multiple density of rubber to isolate different frequencies.
3) Since you do not know what the frequency IS, well it is trial and error for which will work best.
Fascinating stuff. Keep the interesting stuff coming
We will try. Thank you!
Hi, from an ex submariner, we used mount all equipment on Resilient Mounts to stop noise and vibration transmitting to the hull. All the best and Fair winds John
+John Walton thank you very much. I am taking a look at their products
Hi Stew and Zaya, another excellent episode, as usual! I've always been intrigued by the concept of a vessel that is totally energy independent.
As I think I've mentioned previously, I subscribe to a number of sailing channels (this being one of my very favorites, of course) and yours is the
first featured boat with solar, hydro, and now wind energy all at once. That's so cool! You may have answered this previously, but are you considering
eventually replacing Luckyfish's motors with electric ones? To be able to go wherever you want without having to worry about getting fuel (or water,
since Luckyfish has its own watermaker) and leaving a practically zero carbon footprint is so intriguing. My understanding is that electric motors
are so much easier to maintain than internal combustion ones.
I love when you delve into the technical aspects of your boat and of sailing; you do it in a way that is easy enough for dummies like me to understand,
while being very comprehensive as well. I'm wondering if you could at some point do an explanation of concepts like the relationship of amps to watts.
I have only the most general understanding of those. I would imagine that you guys have had to do a fair amount of homework to tailor your green energy
sources to the energy needs of Luckyfish and its crew. It would be great to hear the process by which you did that. I found the video you did on
your hydrogenator extremely interesting.
Keep those videos coming! Stay safe.
GOOD JOB ! :)
I can't believe that little propeller thingy generates enough wind to move that boat around very well. Maybe locating it lower so that wind blasts more directly on your sail will work better for you? You sailboat fellas come up with the most amazing newfangled gadgets. Good on ya!
Cool project!
Great stuff.
I would adapt a couple of smaller rubber engine mounts to try and isolate the wind generator. Make sure they are rubber and not urethane as rubber is better at absorbing harmonics like what you are experiencing. You can also get motor mounts that are interlocking and heavy duty enough that should never fail.
oui, même idée pour silentblocs moteurs avec un câble de sécurité mat bateau/mat éolien en cas d'arrachage par fort vent/ Yes, same idea for silentblocs engines car with a matt cable of security wind boat / matt in case of lifting by strong wind. (traduction reverso)
Cool , now you can trim the trees and the sea grass at the same time going into your secret spot . Lol
hehe. thats actually pretty funny
Thank you for the video! I live vicariously through this content 🤓 if I had the money I would live on a catamaran. I can dream though ⛵
Good video guys thank you I considered this but think I will decline. Again thank you.
Could the wind generator, at certain speeds be hitting the resonant frequency of the mast, or perhaps a stay? The vibrations wouldn't necessarily be a problem on any other installation, but if you have a mast or stays that just happened to be "tuned" to those frequencies it could show up.
Great job getting Luckyfish back in the water. And as always, you two are brilliant at sharing what you have learned with the rest of us.
Raising the mast is called stepping the mast !
With the turbine so high up, you escape the whooshing noise of the blades spinning through the air. But the hollow mast amplifies the bearing sound like a speaker diaphragm. Despite your rubber mounting pad,the mounting bolts are still allowing the vibration through as they are metal-to-metal contact. I would suggest using a strong engine mounting block which has no direct metal contact. The lower frequency knocking sound to me is a mystery, but can certainly be resolved as it is not normal. You will not remove all sound, but can certainly reduce it. Shut it down at bedtime for a quiet sleep. I respect your desire to experiment and deviate from the norm, and good luck with reducing the noise pollution.
+Shaun Rudling - thanks very much. You are dead right about the height reducing the swoosh - but to be honest the swoosh is almost non existent on this unit. Very quiet blades. Yes, we have the manual shutdown there at night, but of course it is night time when we really want it to run so I will be much happier when we resolve the knock and the hum. Thanks for your great comment, Stew
As others have pointed out, the mounting bolts will defeat the rubber vibration dampner sheet between the plates. The bolts will transmit the vibrations betwen the mounting plates. So you need to get rubber bushings around the bolts where it passes through the plates, (so the bolt is not touching the sides of the hole) and rubber washers on one end of the bolt, (or both, but probably not necessary) so there is no metal to metal contact between the mounting plates due to the bolts. for example:
Photo: www.acousticalsurfaces.com/assets/hg.jpg
Website:www.acousticalsurfaces.com/mounts_springs/neoprene_isolators_hg.htm
+Black Hat - really useful links... that looks ideal. Thank you, Stew
@@SailingLuckyfish I very much agree with +Black Hat
Propeller tips bends on high speed getting too close to power line or even touching it -I would not place the turbine at the mast top it will attract lightning with copper cable running through your system.You gain more output by placing it higher but you will suffer from cable loss.Lover the voltage shorter the distance should be between power source or thicker wire.Jump start cables are thick for a reason.I hope you have much thicker copper wire running all the way to the water for lightning protection.Stay safe
good video...sorry, no fix from me, I eliminated the wind generator on my current 13m cat, after nearly being driven mad by our old Ampair 100 on a previous monohull. The screaming of the blades during a f7 or 8 (at anchor) was worse than the F7 or 8! I like your hydrogen...would be interested in your long term assessment of it? Enjoy your vlogs, informative, fun, a bit of travelogue, but down to earth. Hope we cross wakes somewhere down the path....Thx! Andrew (St Augustine)
Hi Stewart
You could use a rubber tap washer drilled out for the bolt size,. Then sleeve the bolt with rubber hose split and cut as a sleeve to eliminate the vibration transferral.
Thanks. We plan to try something similar to this
I say the rotation shaft has some play inside the bearings or the bearings have play inside their housing.
On our Wharram Narai we utilised a much earlier, cruder Rutland. I had a base with a 1/2 inch rod welded vertically on it, about 8 inches long. The Rutland was mounted to a tube. I then made rubber "washers" cut in my case from discarded rubber conveyor belting (about 1/2" thick) with a hole saw giving an outside diameter which fitted quite snugly inside the Rutand's tube. I over drilled the centre holes of these to 1/2 inch. I slid two oversize rubber washers down the rod first - then the other washers to the top. I had put a thread on the last inch of rod to fit a steel washer & nut to apply some pressure to expand the washers if necessary, but in my case everything was so tight it wasn't needed and I used soapy water to lubricate sliding the tube down over the washers. In fact it was so tight I didn't push the tube quite down to the two "base" washers, and it remained at that height for the seven years we owned her. It probably stayed there a lot longer but it doesn't show on any of the later videos shot by Cristiano, who bought her and took a lot of (low resolution) video during at least 8 subsequent Atlantic crossings in her... I rigged the Narai as a sloop and had the Rutland on a long tube on the starboard aft deck.
I just read Black Hat's post and those commercial rubber bushings look perfect for your existing mount! ~ Scott
really interesting solution. thank you
How cool to be on my laptop when this notification popped up :) Clicked like and am about to watch. Been keen to see this one.
Great to hear, hope to hear any suggestions you might have
@@SailingLuckyfish Hi Stewart. I'd go with JC F on replacing those bolts with small engine mounts. My best guess on the knocking after you've torqued the blades to "common sense newton metres" is probably a roll pin (or some such) catching on plastic casing somewhere along the shaft. My reasoning here is that as the generator comes under varying loads there may be an axial reaction that would cause an insufficiently driven pin to just catch. It also has a "softer" sound over my headphones. As I say, "best guess", I have no experience to draw on with these units. A faulty bearing is also quite plausible. I like your step, Kiwi no8 wire for you right there. Fair winds and best regards to Zaya.
+Waughthog Waugh -Agree. We have some brilliant suggestions from folks such as yourself to put to use. Looking forward to "not" hearing the results. Cheers mate, fair winds and fair thermals to you to, Stew
Great video!
First to clean up after using 5200 use isopropyl alcohol. That’s regular rubbing alcohol. Buy it at a pharmacy for a buck per bottle. It cleans off fresh 5200 before it skins over. After 5200 dries nothing gets it off. Isopropyl and lots of paper towels.
On the wind Genny, you got a lemon send it back.
Use a much thicker block of silicone instead of the rubber and use locktite blue on the blade screws and a torque wrench to ensure consistent fastening.
Great video, thanks for sharing.
It’s very sad to experience a manufacturer with such lack of commitment to their products. I can see from the comments that they have been unable to solve the problem. If it was me, I would use my 20.000 viewers base to let everybody know about this product, and the lack of backup from the factory. They simply can’t let you down this way. I’m shocked that you have to ask your viewers for help and suggestions, rather than the factory.
We all like happy and positive videos, but when it get down to the business of this, the factory let you down. Spread the word, bro, and safe travels out there.
You might find that the knocking sound comes from the mounting bolts where you have rubber sandwiched between 2 plates. Minor vibrations through the bolts can be removed if you have a nylon or Teflon sleeve bush between plates, rubber etc which would absorb sideways vibrations of the bolts
Replace the bearings taking care to never push on the bearing running faces - only the sides. Take care not to nudge or tap the assembled unit on anything at all, or else you will put a tiny dint in a bearing face which will then run noisily. Pre-fill the bearings with extra thick grease will reduce noise at the expense of efficiency, but I don't think you will ever get away from hum with it mounted like that.
Thanks Steve, appreciate the tips. You might be right about the mounting and hum. We will try to reduce it anyway. Cheers
Good Day to both of you , solution would be to install a 3/16’’. Th, Néoprène or resistant rubber between the matching steel plates , also install rubber washer to each side of the lags bolts complete with steel metal washer . One under and one on top for each lag bolts
Be sure to use a high density material for isolation
Best regards
+Charles Frenette - yes, the rubber under the lag bolts. I like it. Thank you. We put 1/4" of high density rubber between the matching steel plates - I'm unsure if it lets a little of the hum through. Its heartening to see you suggest dealing with the bolts. Cheers
Rubber is good idea. If you put two layers of rubber, with another plate in between and offset, non-touching bolts, you will probably eliminate 80% of vibration. If the bolts go right through, they will transmit lots of vibration.
Mister Professor Your idea is even better.
@@charlesfrenette2203, I did this wtih a special DC gearmotor arrangement that had to be silent, and two additional plates with rubber mounts (engine type) eliminated basically all noise transmission. It does make the isolated thing a bit "flexy". Unfortunately, looking at the 2 foot pole the generator is on, it's clear that the bolts will have to be very securely attached!
You have mounts called motor mount. Or generator mounts. This could be used to reduce humming being made of rubber.
Goodday mate when I mounted our wind generator whe had a loud humming noise after different try s we ended up putting a rubber sleeve around outside of pole where it mounted onto the wind generator solved the problem ours is mounted on a 11 ft pole on back of boat cheers mate
+Sailing S/V Slipstream - great tip - love the fact that it solved your problem. Not quite sure about what you did though. Rubber sleeve on outside of pole? Is the pole a male insert into the genny base?
I have a diverse answer that equals this
during construction of the Type 471 Collins Class boats there was quite a lot of vibration coming out of the periscope system which would literally shake the whole boat when any of the masts were deployed. The problem was hydrodynamic forces encountered for the round masts and was solved by installing a spiral wrap. The solution is common to many industrial applications, even high voltage electricity cables. Im afraid I cannot say conclusively if this would work, but I think I would try wrap some conduit around the supporting stand.
So is the knocking noise part of the same feature? Well suck it and see, its not impossible that blade airflow going around the mast stand may do that but the frequency sounds somewhat low, it would need to be 3 knocks per 1 rotation. My best guess is its a bearing especially if there is one knock per rotation
have a good one
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collins-class_submarine#Periscopes_and_masts
preformed.com/images/pdfs/Energy/Fiber_Optics/Motion_Control/Fiberlign_Dielectric_Damper/sp2130-2b.pdf
+SV Zaya really interesting! so that's what those spiral wraps do on power lines. This idea will go into the list of possible solutions for sure, thanks alot! yes, the knock is more like once per rotation so blade/pole interference is not a likely cause. Thanks also for the links, Stew. (Zaya says good boat name btw)
@@SailingLuckyfish hey welcome, yes the frequency seems more at the axis not flow behind the blades. That said you should check that the blades have the same angle of attack and even that theyre around the right way. It happens! Having been through that discovery entire, thump thump is a bearing.
Zaya Yes I nearly changed her name (shes always been Zaya) but the simplicity of zulu alpha yankee alpha persuaded me. It was fun contemplating names though
+SV Zaya good one. Other suggestions have been to wrap the genny pole in french whipping (round and round with half hitches) or slip an outside rubber sleeve over it. May have a similar vibration damping to the spiral. I see no harm in adding this along with the bolt insulators. I will check the blade angles also, cheers and thanks again.
Couple of things to try, old conveyor belt used it a lot to stop vibration on a lot of machines. Another that may be easier to find is a rubber door mat
great suggestions and thank you! We'll be giving a few suggestions a try once we get back to the boat and will report back with the results. cheers
Big like
I installed 1st Rutland generator on my 1st catamaran back in the 80' and a 913 generator on my latest catamaran. Both worked and produced to specs, very quietly and minimal vibration . Fixed them pretty much like you did separating them with 5mm neoprene pads. Over 25 - 30 knots however vibrations were noticeable, but in those conditions I still prefer to manually lash down the propeller anyway. The weak point obviously are the bolts, for which I considered using bolt separation sleeves and washers as used for bi-metal separation of pipe flanges. I am not sure wether engine silent block type mount would be a good solution since they are somewhat flexible by definition and could cause the generator to wobble.
As much as I like the idea of mast head installation, propellers tend to catch things and may require quick action, which is not easy with mast head install. Same for maintenance or removal when you have to handle 15 kg at arms length.
Last year I replaced the 913 by two 914i generators with more sophisticated internal electronics and MPPT controllers. These however just produce a small fraction of the specified outputs, and one quickly developed some grinding noise under certain angles, most likely due to bearing issue. Still have not solved the problems, despite having sent back for check and re-installed with local expert supervision and advise. Anybody else have experience with this particular model?
+Marc Maton - I cant help you with the 914i - that's a pretty disappointing outcome so far. Interesting, can you tell me if the manufacturer is standing by you? I mean, a replacement unit would seem to be in order, no? I tend to agree with your comments about engine mounts - many kind folks have sent links to various products here and I too think some nasty action could develop, even shearing. My inclination is to go for the T-type rubber sleeves and large washers as you suggest. BTW - the output we are getting from the 1200, which also has the MPPT etc... is exactly to spec. Cheers, Stew
Both charges were sent back to the UK and returned to Thailand at their expense, but despite very careful re-install, quite a few friendly Skype calls and email exchanges with Rutland, no improvement. I did find some similar problems on a few cruisers forums :
www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/rutland-914i-problems-159225.html , bavariayacht.org/forum/index.php?topic=1438.0
www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/wind-generator-especially-rutland-real-life-output-83777.html
Interesting reading. And, yes, pretty frustrating. I still have a problem understanding how it is possible that not one, but both generators fail, despite installation with separate regulators. Installation of additional solar panel for now compensate for the loss, but I still hope to find someone locally who can figure out what is wrong.
+Marc Maton - noted and thanks for that background. Thats still a very frustrating story. I do hope you can get a local technical guy to identify the problem.
I noticed the blade side of the generator is pointing up to the sky because of the angle of the mast . Its possible that the angle is loading the bearing ,when the shaft is rotating, at opposing points. The generator needs to set level to the deck, despite the slant of the mast.
good point.
It's a really good point you make, that it would be more efficient in light winds if mounted with an offset for mast rake. Re the bearings though, while valid I guess the thousands of monohullers sailing with generators heeled over at greater angles would all be complaining if it caused bearing/noise issues? ~ Scott
+harvey g - we accounted for this in the design of the pole. The pole is vertical (whenever the deck horizontal). There is a 7.5 degree offset on the base to allow for the mast rake. Thanks for the suggestion though! Stew
Explore the blades not being balanced. Three separate blades haphazardly bolted to a center hub does not escape the need to be balanced.
I have sailed a lot with my Rutland 1200 while healing 20+ degrees. No extra noise because of that.
That hum may be some sort of harmonic resonate. Would explained why it's only there some of the time.
Interesting to see your mounting there, I work on infrastructure development and have had some involvement with land-based turbines. generally, there is a low-level vibration which of the blades themselves. On the scale that I have been involved in the designers have employed a few tactics some you have employed some may be of use and others might be difficult to implement in a consumer market unit.
1) Isolation, As a few, have already mentioned your bolt fixings are a transfer point into the mast. on the industrial scale turbines, dampers are installed here, some go as far as looking at counterbalancing resonate frequencies using hydraulic mountings but in your application, I would suggest a passive system with a lower weight so as not to interfere with the boats COE. I would isolate using a hard and a flexible grommet with stainless washers separating the grommets both on the plate and mast side and use locking nuts to secure without the need for excessive tension. This should give you the widest range of dampening possible with rubber. A good of the shelf solution would be car suspension bushes, I think the type used for training arms would work well and for this application as they would be about the right size.
2) Blade Pitch and balance, this is fixed on yours so I will not go into much to much detail as rpm increase the pitch that delivers the quietest rotation differs on commercial turbines the pitch is trimmed to balance noise and efficiency. unfortunately, the graph for noise looks almost identical to the power output graph you showed in your video.
It is possible that the rake of the mast pulls the base angle of the turbine slightly out of alignment, but as you have compensated for this in the plate, and it will never be perfect on a moving platform, there will always be additional vibration through the bearings as a result of the height increase. I would not focus much effort on this as to achieve any significant gains here you would need to significantly re-engineer the turbine and add adjustment and dampening into the bearings.
You could, however, use spacers to adjust the rake forward slightly to see if this helps as you may find that there is some flex in the mast putting the rake of the turbine slightly further back which in use. You could probably work this out with a few engineers and some finite element analysis but to be honest your best off using washers to fine tune as the real world tolerances on the top of a sail mast mean that a more complex approach would be a bit of a waste of time as there are too many variables that would change dependent of rigging etc for it to be worth the time working this out by anything more than trial and error.
3) Low-Level Mast Vibration, the wind farm protestors favourite. Essentially the vibration caused by the mast resonating on account of the rotating mass on the top. I don't have a solution for this the manufactures try to accommodate for it in mast design and in foundation design. I am not overly familiar with the wirram rig, but would just advise you to keep an eye on the tension in the rig and add locking nuts where ever possible as mounting a turbine in this manner will have introduced a lot of additional vibration to your rig. doing this and adding dampening where ever possible will cut down on the additional levels of wear and tear as a result.
As with any mast mounted turbine the mast will tend to make any vibration more audible in your application I would include your rig into this equation as the which may go some way to explain the variance in noise based on wind angles and reduction in the water, as under different tension loads this will become more and less audible. Sheathing where your rig loops around the top of the mast may help with any noise coming from the rig, but then again it could be transmitted through the mast itself.
I hope there is something useful for you in my ramblings on this, it an interesting project you have there. I will follow it with interest as I had thought of doing something similar on my next boat (when I get the funds together for a catamaran).
+Andy Bill - thank you very much for your insights. the training arm suspension bush you mention, or a centre mount rubber bush equivalent, looks like the first step to take with the largest possible return. As far as keeping the base angle of the turbine level, you are right. Our mast rake and rig tension and many variables not least of which our "footing" is a platform that is constantly moving on the sea make this insolvable. But, we take heart that many mono's pitch and sail on a lean so we are likely "more level" despite the added height. Thank you again, we will post updates and hopefully show some progress, Stew
The website suggests securing the blades during intense winds to prevent damage; how does the wind generator perform during those conditions, and how has it held up to this point?
change the cable run on the inside of the mast for a cable conduit and fill the remainder with foam
I placed a 80,000 mill one a cement foundation one time and used a pcs. of 1" 1/4" rubber conveyor bely under the whole mill connected to cement foundation and once running, very rough mill, Raymond Mill, you could set a coffee on it and walk away and comeback ir it still there so I suggest a thicker rubber mount, if you have not corrected yet. Also, your support pole, if hallow, might be too long. Just me sitting here thinking about this.
The knocking very well could be caused by wind shadow caused by the mast.... Yes the mast is behind the blades but behind our in front causes pressure buildup.... Did you check balance of the blades.... Just like a ceiling fan out of balance causes noise.. If you climb the mast while it's spinning and use a metal rod held to your ear and different parts of the generator you can narrow down the origin of the knock.... Also consider that the knock could be a line that has resonance..... Try listening to each line.... Could be that the knock is just the coils passing magnet as well.... How does the nose cone connect?? Could be that too
I have the exact same generator, with the exact same humming sound, in spite of some rather sofisticated rubber mounts. But I don't have the knocking sound. The humming sound can be heard all over the boat, and is rather annoying when trying to sleep in an otherwise quiet anchorage.ff course, if you just love the idea of free energy pouring into the boat. The knocking sound reminds me of a motorcycle wheel with an old worn down bearing.
Thanks for that info - pretty interesting. I first noticed the Rutland 1200 on the hardstand in Grenada, a Prout 38 next to us had two and we could not hear a whisper from them. Pretty impressive. Their blade tech has all but removed any whoosh. The humming is possibly inevitable for all gennies, I dont know. It is exactly the sound we get from the Watt & Sea. We love that sound because its energy on passage and the boat is pretty vocal then anyway. But on anchor where the wind genny is designed to do its thing, the sound is something we will put more effort into reducing. Agree, the knock sounds like bearing to me too. We will give Rutlands latest suggestions a crack and see if that fixes it, otherwise it will be bearing for sure. Or out of balance blades :-) Cheers and thanks for great comment, Stew
@@SailingLuckyfish I did in fact forget to mention that in addition to the humming we do clearly hear the woosh from the blades, but then your blades are very far away in the top of the mast, and when we are going to sleep we are far away from the woosh sound too. Only the humming is all over the boat, and it's like sleeping inside a guitar with a humming sound to it. I also didn't mention that I had a very unstable performance, seen by very fluctuating watt readings on the remote display. But the support at Marlec (who makes the Rutland WG's was very helpfull, and asked me to return the controller, and the remote display. They found an error in the controller, fixed it and returned both, at no cost, no questions asked. I believe their support was first class, and I have heard so from others.
Easy and cheap rubber mounts: Go to your local auto parts store and get 4 sway bar end links for an early 2000's Chevrolet Cavalier.
Thanks, I checked them out. its a possible fix for sure
How about using a flexible coupling for a shaft of the type that is a disc with four rubber grommets? Also, why not make the support pole such that it hinges and swings down? I have in mind a hinge that can be covered and secured by a sliding fit piece of tube over the pole. Slide that piece up above the hinge, and swing the pole down for servicing the generator.
thank you for both suggestions - agree with you. we will try rubber centre mount bushings (grommets) on the mounting base. Your suggestion for the hinge really is a good one! It has got me thinking about that as I am sure this wont be the last time we need to go up the mast to service it. Thanks again, Stew
I couldn't help but chew on how to scale UP your mast-top benefits, even before the vibration issue showed up in the video...and the shallow understanding I have of the way wind farms stagger their windmills made me fall into the natural staggering of multiple wind generators running straight in-line with the line of the boat...bow to stern, since that is the only direction that wind will never come from under sail. Of course, that changes under power, and the obvious question is HOW MUCH DRAG IS REGISTERED FROM A SINGLE WIND GENERATOR...OR...SIX? Ha!!! I couldn't help but take the next step in eliminating vibration by mounting three generators on gimbals supported by stainless pipe with rigging cable passing through it between two masts...OR...on a dampened spinnaker pole (or two that balance each other, port-to-starboard!). A triangle of spinnaker poles connected to the main mast at the front tip of a triangle, with rigging (spreaders?) stabilizing the rear two points comes to mind, which can support 6 to 8 small generators that are supported by enough cable that any vibration is mitigated seems interesting. Love to hear your input, and if multiple slightly smaller units would prove advantageous!
Here is a gimbal set up that may be over-kill, but food for thought:
>>>The "Tiltamax Gravity" 3-Axis gimbal is used to stabilize large digital cinema cameras up to 33 lbs (15 kg) via 3-axis motor calibration. The "Gravity" easily adapts to different environments and shooting requirements. It can be handheld, mounted to a jib, anchored to a camera car, mounted to a suction cup rig, etc...
what make/model are you battery charge monitors they are lovely ? Also love your channel, very real, down to to earth and engrossing, Thanks for sharing x Simon, Conwy UK..
Luckfish, the knocking noise could be aerodynamic, caused by the proximity of the tubular mast relative to the blades when they pass at the 6 o clock position. I find it strange that the manufacturer would put the mast so close to the tower. The solution would be to make a cranked mast to put the bottom of the blade disk further from the support pole. But to do that it would have to get taller and structural integrity could be an issue. Vibrational isolation is a pretty complex topic and not simple mechanically.
Speculative explanation, I have the same Rutland 1200, same kind of mast, with no knocking noise.
Hi Stewart and Zaya. I found this video very interesting. While we were staying with you on Luckyfish in The Bahamas I was very interested in the wind generator. I did not find it too noisy in the conditions we had, but I understand that you want to refine the installation. I remember sitting in the middle of the night on deck, looking at the stars and hearing the wind generator topping up the batteries, knowing that our energy needs for the next day will be ok. :)
Are you sure the blades aren't hitting anything? The wind does flex them toward the tail a bit, so you wouldn't notice it when the wind wasn't turning the rotor. Of course, if that was the answer, by now you've found it, because of the blade tip wearing on whatever it's hitting.
I would cut a few 1/8" neoprene pads 1/4" total to go under the generator. I would not hope for much though but it should cancel out some of the constant unless it is actually wind harmonics through the blades. That knocking eats it. I would probably run it up to a month before the warranty expires and if it hasn't worked itself out send it in for warranty repair. If it does quiet down I would then check for any rotor play. I generally do not use triplex cabling for those. I use single runs of multi strand conductor and twist them together down the run to help offset any EMF that might be thrown around by the 3 phase varying frequency of the generator. But if you have no problems with that yet, you probably never will. Other than ease (or lack thereof) of maintenance I think it's a good location. More consistent power is worth the trade off unless the boat is a slip queen. ;)
Great tip on the EMF. No noticeable problems so far thank goodness! Thanks, Stew
I’m a teacher in aviation ( propeller technology).. before you install any propeller, check tracking and balance..
this is most important to avoid any vibration.. also test at the mast or pole
I think we have to take things apart when we buy them, and remanufacture some pieces, because things seem to be made to break.
Sounds like a defective bearing. Put a fine long screwdriver against the bearing area and place your ear against the handle of the screwdriver. If you hear the same noise when spinning the rotor by hand it's a bearing flat spot. If not get a rubber engine motor mount (small one, and you'll beed three to hold it at three places) and it will isolate all the noise (including the hum). Pm me if you need the details. Jean.
Great advice Jean, thank you
Engine rubber mounts would numb the vibrations.
Two words: Vertical Axis.
There are many reasons why a big spinning fan in the sky powered by the wind looks like a great idea.
There are also many reasons why a spinning post is a much better idea.
1. Birds cannot see the blades of a horizontal spinning "fan", but never fail to miss seeing a moving/rotating "post".2. When the wind speed gets too high, the "wind" sees the blades of a vertical spinning generator as a post, and it will not spin any faster. You don't have to cut it off, or make it "brake" if the wind gets too fast.3. The lift on 3 blades that are 2 feet long is the same, if they are horizontal, or vertical - in any given wind speed. Think helicopter, or drone.4. A vertical axis generator is always "into" the wind - it doesn't have to change directions.
As for the reason for the knock knock knock - Did you balance the entire assembled head? Did you check the pitch/angle/weight of all 3 blades on a dynamic spinning test stand? If one blade is different from the other 2 by being heavy/twisted/warped/off balance/not the same angle/a different temperature/weak/hollow - the list goes on and on - it will cause an imbalance in the entire system. Stick that issue on top of a 40+ foot pole, and you have found your problem.
It's not enough to just tighten bolts. If one blade is different - in any way - to the center of rotation/air pressure/etc - you will have a noise at 40+ feet no matter how much rubber you put around it.
The head needs to be spin-balanced, and since it is a "propeller", it needs to be pitch balanced also.
As for the HUMM, I have a bag of rubber bands here you can wrap on your standing rigging to tie various bits of hanging metal onto to eliminate the giant stringed instrument you have created. Maybe you just aren't happy with the musical key you have created on the boat? It might be interesting to place people at all the "strings", and play a tune by having them hold the strings at the appropriate times. Music on the water, rather than smoke. Deep Purple would be proud, or more appropriately, Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young.
Oh, by the way, get yourself some box end wrenches. Open end "spanners" are for people who don't know hex.
It is a shame you did not put a microphone on the mast so we could hear the knock and whining better. ( I was a sound engineer and it would have helped) I suspect the knock is a baring, and to get rid of harmonics are a trial and error of all the suggestions you may get. I would suggest the aluminum 26" pole could have some rubber clamped to it in the middle? or grab the standing and adjust tension, It will depend where the harmonic is?? Will be trial and test.Great idea to have a go ...well done. Brian London
Thanks Brian, that recording in the video is from a mic pressed against the mast
Hello, very interesting video!!
I'd like to know if you've solved the problem of vibrations and noise and if so, how!
Good luck at all times and always a handbreadth of water under the keel.
Hi Andy, not solved it yet.. returning to boat later in year and have a bunch of suggestions from viewers here to put into practise. Will report back! Cheers
I think the main reason you don't see this more is that the wire need to be a gauge or two larger, i.e. more expensive, to avoid DC line losses... and the high likelihood of a lightning strike destroying it! And the vibration transfer through the tightly attached mast... and the inaccessibility of the rotor for repairs... and the chance of ropes becoming fouled in the blades... or a blade coming off and killing you, or worse: ripping the sail... oh wait, what were the advantages? It does seem like a nice idea, but the benefits might be minimal compared to a stern-mounted unit. for vibration you might try fabricating a couple aluminum plates that go between the generator and the top of the mast. Then put rubber shock mounts (similar to engine mounts) between each plate. You can get these at McMaster Carr in the US in smallish sizes. four rubber mounts of about 20mm should do the trick, for each level of plate that you add. Of course, then you have a corrosion problem... www.mcmaster.com/=1fm60ic
You forgot the most obvious downside, bird strike, several sailing channels have had their wind indicator instruments destroyed by birds. I can't imagine what a seagull would do to the wind generator. But damn the torpedoes, I still think the wind generator belongs at the top of the mast. Maybe a vertical axis wind turbine generator is in order.
@@jcregal3456 maybe if they stick a little whistle at the tip of each blade it would scare the birds away 😂
Aparently we were also willing to live with the 3rd issue aswell...lol.
Would anybody here be interested in joining a Facebook group about the Rutland 1200 WG? It seems to have some problems, and experimenting with the setup is very time consuming, so sharing proven ideas might be time and effort saving.
Sure, if you agree to moderate it I'm there. Happy to be part of constructive discussion, cheers
And sudden-ly, we started talk-ing all robotically
it would be cool if it gave you wind direction and speed, but i see you have that on your foremast :)
Your bolts are in metal-to-metal contact in tension. Vibration does not just travel down the mast through compression. I have two suggestions:
a. Remove the rubber pad and see if the rigidity solves the problem, or
b. Put rubber between the bolt head and the metal plate, so the bolts are "suspended" by rubber.
I am going to watch it again to see if you gave any performance numbers. If you do not need it and it has not been fixed yet, why not lock it to prevent loss of sanity. I believe you maintain a time delay between filming and posting. Could the knock be from where the mounting meets the top of the mast? The rubber might be providing an unstable surface and as the wind blows the force is transmitted down the mount causing it to flex at that point compressing the rubber at one side but not the other.
I think if yall ever get into gale conditions you're at a great risk of losing it at considerable damage to the mast where connected and whatever it lands on..not so much an issue at sea becausethe wind if that strong wouldlilely take it away from the boat...but you never know, interesting placement for sure....
If you think the blades are loose, you could try gluing the blades to the hub with a flexible adhesive. There is a lot of surface area at the hub for adhesive to act on, and so long as the adhesive is not brittle (epoxy =bad) it should damp any small relative movement you may be getting due to inconsistencies in the contact surfaces from the manufacturing process.
I would be hesitant to add any material to the rotor. It's hard enough getting something that spins fast like that properly balanced. The odds of putting exactly the same amount of adhesive in each spot around the rotor, slim to none, just exacerbating any out-of-balance issues (or creating new ones, if none exist at the moment).
Adhesive on the hub would be very close to the rotational axis. One can weigh the adhesive to make sure one uses the same amount on each blade. Most will squeeze out, so the contribution to imbalance should be very small.
@@Custercounty01 Perhaps the adhesive could also help balance the prop as well.....
Try looking at refrigeration compressor mounts as an avid RC plane builder and flyer Ive used them to quieten petrol powered aircraft engines small to large are available
+Rob Stevens, I really like the idea of those studded mounts, but there may be an issue with shear strength. Although the weight of unit is only 17lbs there are instantaneous shear stresses added to this due to wind gusts and mast pitching etc. Could be quite high. Thanks alot for taking the time away from the RC fun to help, Stew
I can only think of 2 possible causes to your nocking problem one is that one of the blades is out of balance not just heavier or lighter but miss shaped causing it to exert more or less force ? 2 is that one of the bearings had a flaw and it didn't show up until it was run in. either way, I would love to know how you end up fixing it as I will have to employ a wind gen on the top of my mizzen mast. once my 42ft Wharram goes back in the water.
+Marcus Lee We will be posting updates to this saga... interesting to hear your angle on the bearings post "running in". That had not occurred to me. I believe Rutland when they say they do carry out serious quality control after my exchanges with them, but your suggestion could still mean a bearing is the issue. Thanks and good luck getting back in the drink. You wont regret putting your wind genny up there. It is worth the extra hassle in my view. Cheers
I would agree with some sort of rubber dampers ,this always requires bigger hole, not me favorite solution,i do like the idea of the generator bieng up on the mast
Agree. From the many suggested solutions I think centre mounted rubber bushings will help a lot. The holes may need some enlarging. This is a work in progress with the objective of a virtually silent mast head wind gen. Many thanks for supporting the approach, cheers
huge brain move
My guess for the vibration is that the blades and rotor aren't balanced. There are plenty of you tube videos to check and correct this problem.
hi , i flow to florida to meet with the family for thanksgiving , on my way there i stop in Labelle to see if i can meet you guys, i did find the small marina but one of the guy there told me that you were long gone, any way you keek scholing us everything you need to know about sailing your way
+Luis Roebuck - hey Luis sorry we missed you mate! Luckyfish is now in Guatemala and we are in Mongolia, busy catching the videos up to our timeline - best wishes to you and your family, Stew and Zaya
Try a velcro strap(white) instead of blue tape. just a thought
Wow your a keener man than me gunga din, A 12 foot pole on the stern & 2 $300 Alibaba wind generates does me & touch wood still going good the last i heard (sold her last year). Had to sand the front of the blades (with 800 grit) every 3 or 4 months to stop a hum.✔
+bill hanna - I hear you mate. there are easy and cheaper options out there than our path that's for sure which is awesome. Pretty happy with the Rutland, I know we have something that will last indefinitely, if we keep the maintenance up to it... and those blades sure are quiet. I'll be happier once we sought these teething probs out though, cheers, Stew
@@SailingLuckyfish Cant beat quality at sea
interesting, maybe a rope lashing wahram styl would help, lock tight in the hole contact surface of the blade ... think a bit of sound will always be there
+Bruno Wiebelt - I really like that idea, MiQ Bohlin suggested it to me a while back. Maybe Spectra lashings. Its a possible fix on the list. Thanks!
I wonder if the knocking could be a wire inside the mast that shakes enough at certain wind speeds to be tapping inside the mast?
It's probably your rubber Mount that's putting the vibration into it it's giving it movement
Liquid filled engine mounts. I believe my Toyota has them,
replace the bolts with engine or gearbox mounts.
yup. you are on it for sure
@@SailingLuckyfish You have an issue with Gyroscopic procession at the top of a mast which will decimate the bearings in time.
Have you reached any conclusions regarding the effectiveness of the mast mounted wind generator compared to the hydro generator? Certainly the ability to generate power while at anchor is a plus but, depending on wind speed, it may not be as big a benefit as it appears. Thanks and keep up the good work.
Conclusions? For the Carib where the trades blow like clockwork you cant go wrong with a wind genny. The benefit of wind at night is huge if you dont have sufficient room for a large solar array AND adequate storage. Thanks v much for your comment! Stew
Stewart and Zaya: Thanks for all your great videos! I believe you said that this is an alternator that gets rectified to DC at the controller? Maybe with a Multimeter measuring Hz you could determine/calculate RPM of the rotor, then somehow determine frequency of the annoying noise. If the noise frequency is 3X RPM frequency, then you can assume it is a blade or blade passing the post. If you knew bearing construction (how many rollers/balls) and compared frequency of noise versus RPM frequency you might be able to point to a bearing? Good Luck. Chuck in Wildomar, CA
Go on line and do a search for Rubber Vibration Isolator Mounts on Ebay or Amazon. Another source in the USA is Grainger.com. They come in different sizes and load bearing capabilities. I have used them to quiet down KVH satellite TV antennas, watermaker pumps, generator gas separators on my boat. You would place them between the top of your mast head and the base plate of your wind generator mount.
You do not want any solid connection like your bolts. Do what the movie industry does to prevent as a safety, place one or two small lanyards from the upper part of the mast and your generator mount. By doing this if the mounts ever fail and it breaks loose the most it will do is fall a foot or two.
Balance the blades both statically and dynamically. For static balance remove each blade and adjust weight on the blade so that they all have the same centre of mass. Then balance dynamically with hub assembled and rotating on the central hub so that no blade is favored. When dynamic balancing only add weight to the centre of mass you established with static balancing and not the tip. You can add mass using tape on the backside of the blade.
The next thing to try would be tip tracking. You can rig something up so that as you rotate the blades you can see if they rotate on exactly the same plane. If not you can shim at the hub or twist the blade slightly. The tracking should be sub-millimeter.
Great ! Easy to follow, thank you. We will look at this but if the hub proves to be locked in tight. Rutland do a very sound QC before each unit leaves. It would be really surprising if it came down to a balancing issue as the unit made the knocking sound right out of the box. Thanks again - will keep you posted on outcome, Stew
I think the noise just comes with the territory I always try to anchor away from people with wind generators as the do make a lot of noise .
How is the wind generator going now after some time has passed? What sort of charging amperage are you seeing from it at what wind speeds? (Thanks for all the great videos, really enjoying the channel!)
Will post an update on the wind genny in coming months. The unit performs exactly as the manufacturer claims - all in all an excellent unit. Scroll down here for the performance curve www.marlec.co.uk/product/rutland-1200-windcharger/?v=943afaf25ac1 Cheers
Is the generator hard mounted to only face forward or will it spin on the shaft to face into the wind? If the knock lessens in different when the blades are facing the wind at different points try to notice if it is more level to the deck or less in different positions. the fix for the knocking could be as simple as bending the mounting pole to level out the generator.
we accounted for this in the design of the pole. The pole is vertical (whenever the deck horizontal). There is a 7.5 degree offset on the base to allow for the mast rake. Thanks for the suggestion though! Stew
They say every lb at the top u need 10 at the keel
I strongly recommend that you go to a vertical axis wind turbine. The vibration is much less and the reliability is far superior.
not sure if it would help figure out what is going on , . but did it make the sound, when the wind was blowing, but the blades are not spinning (ie it is locked)? I think it would be best to address route cause, figure out what is going on , rather then trying to isolate the issue. IF you have it on the ground.. maybe you could spin it with a drill see if you can re create it there, with an without the blades. maybe the weight up high and tention of stays causes the whole thing to "sing" like a plucked guitar string. you might try something if you have a cleat or something some distance up the mast, . try to tie it off to one side of the boat ... and see if that makes the sound mostly go away, if so , then you know your mast is resonating somehow, and the act of tieing it off, has damped it.
+Kevin Nemrava - thanks for the suggestions. It doesn't make the sound when the rotor is locked off, in wind. Yes, the drill idea is a good one, its actually part of Rutlands bench testing procedure - we will likely take it down to effect some of the suggestions we have received below - and then bench test it before putting it back up :-) Re: the vibration suggestion, we dont think that is the cause of the hum or buzz... it emanates from the unit/pole area. Many thanks once again, Stew
Another great episode sir! Really enjoyed it. So how is the wind power wise? How much do you get out of it on average? Do you like the rutland?
+ScubaTony Anschutz - power output is exactly as advertised (here: scroll down bit.ly/2PTjc5x) . I first noticed the Rutland 1200 in Grenada, two of them mounted on a Prout 38. They did not make a sound which really impressed me. We were sitting right next to eachother on the hardstand and I spoke to the owner about them. That hardstand was full of noisy wind generators. Later I learned they could be shutdown remotely, indefinitely which pretty much sold me on them. despite the issue we have yes, I still like the Rutland and their back up has been helpful so far. I will feel much better about them once we get to the bottom of the knocking though... Stew
Thanks Man. I will consider one if my 630Watts of solar is not enough. Actually mounting the panels on the bimini today. Very exciting stuff.
yes. your 800Ah of storage (400 useable) plus 630W of solar and a short crew of 1 or 2/ light demand. you are probably going to be ok. That is another route.. solar only and beef up the storage
@@SailingLuckyfish Yea. It really is a balancing game. I only have a small fridge and no other big draws so I am hopeful it will be enough. I won't know until I get out there and start cruising. I might just get a Honda Generator and a couple 40 amp chargers for those random times I have too many clouds for 5-7 days. I have a Victron BM on each bank so I should get an accurate record of energy in and out. You got that water maker and radar you have to feed so the wind gen and hydro make tons of power for ya.
That hum could be harmonics set up with the mast -- not much you can do about it unfortunately without adding mass and that would not be a good idea given that it is at the top of the mast. Just my thoughts for what they are worth .
To some extent all wind generators are noisy. I think I would think about bringing the whole thing down and tightening everything up, check bearings and use a medium duty locktite on all screws and nuts.
+Paul Wyand - I first noticed the Rutland 1200 in Grenada, two of them mounted on a Prout 38. They did not make a sound which really impressed me. That hardstand was full of noisy wind generators, so I understand you completely. We cannot hear any blade noise from the Rutland at deck level. I will be happy when we get rid of the knocking and the slight hum though. I think we can have a virtually silent genny at the end of this. Cheers Stew
Id try removing the rubber all together. Vibration isolation is a science and adding the rubber between the mast head and gen plate, might have added enough movement in the plate for the clamp bolts to rock.
Look at how equipment is mounted on submarines, this should eliminate noise and frequency vibrations. Also the strain relief that you screwed into the mast to secure the wire, is it UV protected?
+Barry Thompson - a submarine engineer actually responded to this question so I reckon we are on the right track Thanks for that tip. Those cable clamps will only last 2 or 3 years, no UV protection... Cheers, Stew
I wonder if you could cancel the humming by generating an off phase tone at the same frequency, like noise cancelling headphones.
Depends if the wind turbines a good one because many rubbish for sale on ebay with bad reviews on UA-cam. Is the boat expensive to maintain. How often does the boat have to go out the water?
Kia ora Stewart
Put a bit of butyl rubber sound deadener into the mast?
My Rutland 503 used to hum like a b.
Here is a website with several examples, specs. and illustrations
sweets.construction.com/manufacturer/Acoustical-Surfaces--Inc--NST8044/products/C---CIP---CIW-Neoprene-Housed-Spring-Mounts-NST333576-P
Would love to know how much power you generate with it.
+Brian Swanland - it performs exactly as advertised. Check here ua-cam.com/video/qgB7CA8WyNU/v-deo.html Cheers