Since I come from an engineering background, you know I had to spreadsheet all of my dough recipes and mine is eerily similar to yours including sections for yudane, poolish and the main dough. I really appreciate your scientific explanations and research
Another fantastic video! Professor Seraphine is consistently a great presenter and I truly appreciate her ability to concisely and fully explain the basis for her conclusions. For those unfamiliar, I encourage you to check out and support her channel. After searching for years and testing dozens of Shokupan recipes, the recipe she posted previously has been my absolute go-to, perfect, at least once a week recipe. I'm excited to try her new (researched and tested) no honey, no condensed milk recipe. Thanks Seraphine! I look forward to you future videos. [from Hawai`i]
Great video! Just don’t understand how you arrive at Hydration of 203.7. Adding water and milk 120 + 50 is 170 and that is only 57% of flour. Where am si going wrong?
Very good explanation on Tangzhong . Excellent work ! I have seen many other “explanations “ not truly a scientific approach , merely parroting what they have seen from other bakers videos without understanding the in depth reasons . Keep it up ! I like your scientific reasoning very much . Btw I am from Malaysia and enjoy watching your videos !
Hi. Perfect. It worked the first time, thank you. If you are interested. I left white bread in a plastic bag for a week, after a week the bread did not spoil, it remain soft and tasty Thank you for recept
More information than I will ever need for making bread. Thank you for your in-depth video on making bread. I am making this recipe while making the bread. Also thank you for making a recipe that is perfect for a one pound pan. Very good presentation skills. Update: Bread just came out of the oven and it looks great. Best Shokupan recipe yet. This is about the 4th recipe I have tried and seems to be the most successful as far as looks. Will be biting into it soon. Update: This is the recipe. Family just had it for dinner and they all agree this is the best Shokupan that I have made. Thank You so much for sharing this recipe and your very detailed video. Best tasting recipe for Japanese Milk Bread.
@@NovitaListyani Is the adjustment for a different sized pan just a straight multiple of metric volume? (I ask as I bought a Japanese shokupan pan specifically for this purpose 😂).
The recipe is based on weight, so from your Pullman pan, get the internal volume in ltr, and use this information here 4:15 to get the total dough required. Adjust the recipe using the baker's percentage, start by adjusting the the total flour you want to use, cross check the total dough after each adjustment.
Made this recipe on the gram and following the explanation in the video, but the milk bread sags when it comes out of the oven, why? same result 3 times now totally frustrated. Grateful for a reply from someone with the same experience.
In Yamauchi's article, they reported "the resultant starch swelling and gelatinization and protein denaturation in Yudane dough make the gluten networks of the bread dough thick and rough." So, theoretical if you make a 40% yudane bread (which is sweeter) , it will have poor crumb structure, but this can be overcome by adding more vital wheat gluten to the recipe.
Thank you for your comment. Actually Naito et al, 2005 reported that the gluten fibrils of bread made with Yudane dough were thick and coarse compared to the control. Yamauchi et al quoted their finding. In many of our videos we mentioned their findings, for example: ua-cam.com/video/1R62RANFg4Q/v-deo.htmlsi=FGhWnNz4e01KYE7r Adding vital wheat gluten addresses part of the problem, you still need to raise the hydration to its optimal level: We discussed this issue here ua-cam.com/video/HJ6LMqWrZp8/v-deo.html
Great content! I'm using an oven in a commercial kitchen which has only bottom heat, but an optional convection fan. Would convection make any difference in cooking temperature or time? Thanks!
Hi, I love your detail explanation of every issue you reserched on. Please, will want to know how you arrived the No in the hydration, like watet in the Milk = 0.87, Water in the whole Egg = 0.74 & Water in the buttr = 0.18. Will appreciate you helping to know how r arrr at these figures. Thank you
Hi Seraphine - I made this loaf on the weekend and it turned out superbly. What I tried right after - was to make such a bread - but with a more noticably "yeasty" flavour - like a sanwich bread that I found in the west indies (That bread may have also been a touch denser). I re-made a loaf - tweaked using your recent Tangzhong work and your Tangzhong/Poolish video from a while back ("Ultimate Basic Asian Bread With Tangzhong and Poolish") - I used 20% & 20%. The poolish did not add as much flavour as I thought would. What would you recomend to make the loaf more fragrant?
You can raise the Tangzhong percentage to get that extra aroma and natural sweetness. Recently we have been baking bread with Tangzhong 35, working on a video, coming soon.
I made this! Did some things differently (wrong?). Started the tangzhong; life got in the way; it was in the refrigerator about a week. Mixed and kneaded by hand. It’s a little chilly here and I forgot about it; the first rise ended up about three hours. I didn’t have a one pound pan so I used a larger pan. The dough looked lonely in the pan. The second rise was about two hours. My final bread wasn’t as pretty as yours, but it tastes wonderful.
I have religious sleep in making the King Arthur Japanese milk bread recipe and I couldn't help but notice this as a much less milk and much less yeast and butter. Why is that? Is the King Arthur recipe trying to make a more indulgent bread? I love your content thank you so much!
I tried this yesterday and it turned out great but my dough didn’t rise as much as yours. I try it again today and I try another brand of dry yeast. The texture of my first shokupan was really lovely though. My wife is Japanese and we can’t buy shokupan where we live. She was really happy with my first try. Wouldn’t it be better to mix the wet ingredients with the dry yeast first and let it activate? Thanks for the great video!
Thank you for your comment. As for the rise, fermentation time plays a key role. It can be longer or shorter depending upon the temperature, dough condition, yeast type and of course its condition. In the video, the pan size for Shokupan is 21x11x12 cm³. The fermentation time should be considered as a general guideline. From our many attempts, we recommend letting it proof to 1-2 cm below the rim before baking. Ensure your oven is preheated to the baking temperature beforehand. Preheating time may vary depending on your oven. We use instant yeast in our Shokupan recipe. There's no need to activate it, in fact, activation can make it less effective as explained in one of our latest videos on the topic: ua-cam.com/video/mz3FAr2z2pI/v-deo.html. If you are using active dry yeast, which has larger granules, it does requires activation before use. Although both types of yeast contain baker's yeast, they have distinct characteristics.
Saludos desde México 👋🏻 This is a great video and a really amazing bread. Thank you for the short video on how to scale down/up the recipe. May I ask what is that working surface you use for kneading bread, what is it made of, what are the measures?
Hi, can I use "whole grain" spelt flour to make both Yudane and dough? Is the protein in spelt flour too much for making Shokupan? Thank you for such a terrific work.
Followed this an made the softest milk bread I've baked yet! Thank you! I am curious, with other breads in the past I've steamed the oven to get a better spring, but is that really necessary for this? And what contributes to a softer vs thicker crust? Thanks
Great recipe, and thorough research. I don't have an oven that can turn on the elements individually, so it's kinda an all or nothing thing. Any recommendations on how long to cook, temperature, etc.? Cheers. 😊
@@NovitaListyani no worries! I tried using a cold pizza stone on the top rack to try absorb some heat, but the top of the bread ended up not rising fully. Back to the drawing board. 🥴
Of course you can use sponge and dough method, one way to do that is to lower the water used for tangzhong/yudane and also liquid milk, then use the liquid in making sponge or poolish.
Thanks for your videos. I love how you explain the science behind bread making. I noticed that for some of your recipes, you use the "Milk Water Replacement." How can I use that ratio or percentage? Does that mean I can't easily substitute the same amount of milk for water as commonly thought?
Glad you like them! To answer your question: The proper amount of milk for use in wheat bread was explained here: at 14:52 also from this video: ua-cam.com/video/qXhVxe1DDXE/v-deo.htmlsi=u5LqrKYKU9cv4LUC&t=250 From the paper by Mădălina Iuga et al., 2020, we learned "Bread elasticity, chewiness, resilience, pores density and size were improved at replacement levels lower than 25%, while for the sensory characteristics of the specialty bread, high scores were obtained." All these are attributes we care about when we are making a shokupan, so we limit the milk water replacement to 25% as suggested, but in the case of crispy donuts, we didn't limit that because we were aiming for flavor and other factors, as we were making fried donuts, not a baked white bread.
@@NovitaListyani Just to get further clarity, which milk replacement figure feeds the milk quantity of 50g? Is it 25% or 24.6%? if you can explain the workings would be appreciated
Hello. I hope you are doing well. I like the informations you give on bread a lot. Thank you. I am thinking of starting a cheese shop with a cheese sandwicherie "grilled cheese" at the side to help boost the revenue and i think shokupan bread is the way to go. May i ask you some questions about the process of making it in big quantities ?
Would it be possible to increase the percentage of milk? Can you do yudane method with milk? In germany bread labeled as "milkbread" has to contain at least 50% milk in bakers percentage,so you wouldn't be able to sell it as milkbread in germany.
Hi Seraphine Excellent video!! The best one on Shokupan making hands down!! I just have few questions: 1) How did you calculate that 2.1l of pan should have 550 gms of dough? I get the volume part but how did you convert it into grams for dough? 2) In my country it is very expensive to get strong bread flour so what we do over is add essential wheat gluten in AP flour to make it bread flour. Will that make inferior Shokupan as compared to using expensive bread flour? I have been making or rather trying to make Shokupan for past few days and hydration is always the issue. I have seen some videos with over 85 percent hydration and there flour handle just fine. My flour at 86% hydration turns into an alien blob running after me in my kitchen. Impossible to handle. This recipe has 67% hydration so I will try making Shokupan again. Hopefully the results will be better this time. Also I just learned from your video that Tangzhong requires more mixing but it also very easily breaks. I was kneading my dough and every time it splits I start to knead more because I thought something is wrong. This time I will simply knead it to the moment it looks like in your video and stop it right there. Thank you so much for this detailed educational video. This has been very helpful!! Hoping to get some answers from you on my questions whenever you get the time!!
Thank you for your kind comment. To answer your questions: 1. We actually talk about this in the video starting here: ua-cam.com/video/qdOHmdTTs24/v-deo.html So, basically we did some experiments and came to the conclusion that the amount of dough for 21x11x12 cm3 (2.1 l) pan should be around 540-600 g which translated to 257 g/l to 286 g/l. We arrived at this number after taking into consideration the amount of loss due to evaporation during baking. 2. If done right, you shouldn't see that much difference between the two. What you need to pay attention to is tangzhong denatures most of the gluten in the flour, so you need to take that into account when you add the gluten.
@@NovitaListyani how do I calculate the correct amount i should use for my loaf pan? i want to scale your recipe for my loaf pan which is 22x11x9 cm^3 big
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to do this recipe without a dough hook / stand mixer? I kneaded mine but its been two hours and has not doubled, so im afraid i over or under kneaded. Also what is the ideal room temp for the rises?
Bread turned out great and did not stale the next day which is something new for me! Ended up mixing it for much longer and took ages to proof. It took me more than double the time compared to your instructions. Maybe cos my flour was 12.5% protein? And room temp was roughly 25c, I don't know. But other than that 👌👌. Will def try your other recipes, love the science you provide behind everything.
About 3 years ago we made many videos using fruit yeast water, you may want to check them out. For example, here is a Milk Loaf Bread recipe made with Fruit Yeast Water ua-cam.com/video/J4lyiJjeeH4/v-deo.html
@@NovitaListyani I made it today and the dough was really wet and was struggling so I used the stand mixer for a little longer.. the resulting bread was a little dense on the inside. Any tips?
Without knowing all the specifics, I am not so sure I can help you, but dense dough is usually the results of either one or combination of the following issues: 1. Over Kneading or under kneading Tangzhong bread dough has a higher tenacity but lower tolerance to over mixing/over kneading 2. Under or over fermentation Tangzhong dough also needs a longer final proofing 3. Flour You need to use bread flour, Tangzhong practically denatures the protein of the flour, so you end up with less protein in the final dough, which is why you need to use bread flour with a higher protein content to maintain the gas retention capabilities of your dough. 4. Lack of gassing power, this can be caused by expired yeast, or could be due to a cold or hot room temperature that causes the yeast to under ferment or over ferment, respectively. 5. Bad final shaping of the dough 6. Improper baking due to oven issue Those are some of the issues I can think of.
I baked this in an approximately 12x12x12 cm aluminum loaf pan with lid on. Flavor and texture are great! However, all six sides after baking collapse inward. I guess, the gas volume inside the loafs contracts when cooling. My question is, can this be prevented? - Otherwise, great result! Will keep baking it!
Can’t wait to try this! I’ve been baking for 3 years and I’ve never heard of this technique. Is your into music mariachi?? Sounds like our Mexican music.
Thanks for your comment! If you click on the description of the video, you should be able to find our the name of the composer and the title of the song, I believe it's of Mexican origin too.
Good video, Seraphine. I really appreciate a recipe that is backed by science. Tq for doing the research for us.😍 Just would like to check, in the ideal recipe shown in 16:41, how do you calculate the total hydration? Which ingredients you took to calculate that? Coz when I took water + egg + milk, it came to 220g, instead of 203.2g.
Most Japanese milk bread recipes in English use the yudane or tangzhong method, so it may seem like that’s how you have to make shokupan. However, the classic traditional shokupan recipe used by bakeries and home bakers in Japan doesn’t use tangzhong.
At 12:07 and in the description, you show a boiling water quantity of 120g. The recipe at 27:29 shows a quantity of 160g. This confuses me. Did you mention a change in the water quantity? I must have missed it. Would this have any effect on the recipe?
The recipe at the end is an alternative one for Shokupan milk bread WITHOUT eggs. This video uses eggs, the recipe is provided all along the explanation on the amounts of the ingredients, a clearer view is here 16:45
Another question please, I didn’t notice that you kneaded the dough. Was the kneading part of the mixing process? Any alternative processes? I don’t have a stand mixer. I have a hand mixer and a food processor.
With a stand mixer, there's no difference in mixing and kneading. If you want to knead the dough by hand, it may take a bit longer depending on your strength, but the steps are the same.
In the video you included egg but at the very end your ratio ingredient grid was altered to remove the egg and i believe there was more butter included as well as more water for the yudane. Can you explain why? I'm currently using the version at the very end and its felt like a different process from the actual video.
The recipe at the end is the alternative no eggs version, the process should be the same, just skip the addition of the eggs. Eggs contain fat, a slight increase in the amount of butter was meant to compensate for that, observe that, in both recipes, the the total fat content was around 6.1%.
@@NovitaListyani thank you! The bread ended up fantastic, just a little overcooked on my end bc of my oven but the end result still delicious! I was concerned how different it looked from the video, but trust the baking science! Thank you again for this video it was extremely educational and it definitely gave me more knowledge and confidence to bake more
@@NovitaListyani I was wondering if the the yudane method increased the glycemic index rating compared to the same bread done conventionally... for any bread really. For example, a whole grain sourdough. And in the case of sourdough, would a long, cold ferment in the refrigerator maybe reduce the added maltose?
Great video! I just don’t understand how you arrive at a hydration of 203.2 g (67.7%), when water an milk in the recipe only add up to 170g (56.7%). Where am I going wrong?
I've been learning so much from your videos, thank you! I have a beginner's question. If our goal is to achieve fluffy bread, why do we roll out the dough after the final proof (before rolling up into the loaf pan)? Wouldn't that remove the bubbles we waited so long to get?
Final proof as the name implied is the final fermentation period for the dough, after that the dough typically goes straight to the oven. So, there shouldn't be any degassing.
@@NovitaListyaniSorry, I meant to refer to the previous 'double in size' proofing before rolling into the loaf tin. Wouldn't shaping it into the tin without rolling it result in more air in the loaf?
It doesn't quite work like that. While leaving the dough alone would preserve the gas, it also would likely lead to overproofing with the time frame of this recipe, excessive gas in the dough can cause it to collapse in the oven. Degassing the dough at that step is also important because it allows us to get a finer and more uniform crumb, due to the further subdivision of the gas cells, preventing the dough from having just a few big gaping holes. At the same time, this step also allows us to basically redistribute the dough's nutrients and yeast. This ultimately allows the yeast to better access the nutrient, and continue fermentation. Adding to this is the extra benefit that comes from shaping the dough after it has been degassed, which is a stronger, better developed gluten structure.
From the description box: Note on hydration calculation: Water in Tangzhong 120 g Water in Milk 0.87x50 = 43.5 g Water in Whole Egg 0.74x 50 = 37 g Water in butter 0.18x15 = 2.7 g Total Liquid = 203.2 g Total Flour = 300 g Hydration = 100%*203.2/300 = 67.7%
Technically the inclusion of whole eggs in wheat flour dough recipes increase dough development time, dough stability, and dough strength upon further mixing. Their interactions with other ingredients also bring out many interesting emergent properties. We plan to do a more technical aspects of video on the inclusion of eggs in bread making.
i use your recipe, but the dough got too sticky, is it because the high hydration? what should we know whether the dough under or over knead, under or over proof?
At about 67%, this is actually not a high hydration bread dough, what happened could be due to a variety of reasons. Overkneading is a potential reason, but it does take a quite long while of mixing to achieve with a stand mixer and it should be quite obvious if you observe your dough. If it doesn't look smooth, and it can't pass the windowpane test, then it might be underkneaded. For the fermentation time, I'm assuming you mean bulk fermentation, and that could also be a possibility if your weather was very warm. If your dough was good before the fermentation and it became unmanageable after, then it's likely over-fermented. It could also be because of the kind of flour you're using, it might be less capable of absorbing water, leading to a stickier dough. Without knowing the exact specifics, it's hard to figure out the cause, but I would start with the factors above.
i tried it, the taste is wonderful, but sorry it wasn't successful , the case was the proofing. I think on this method, dough is very hard to blow while baking like a baloon. I tried with two different ways, one was with shokupan pan close top, another rounding on usual flat tray. sorry i share my experince during baking with tangzhonf. If i use tangzhong 1:5 with 5% flour, the dough is very good to blow like a baloon while baking. so, stop 1-2 cm under the lid, it is still okay, can be full until top. thank you for sharing, i like this channel very much. ❤
@@NovitaListyani okay sorry i didn't give the data. i used pan 12x12x30 cm with amount 1080gr splited to 4 parts 270gr. Flour 1kg with Hydration total 700gr, yudane 400gr, main dough 300gr. total fat 70gr or 7%
I found something cool, i toasted this shokupan, the construction of crumb was very strong while grilling. so the shape was still thick. comparing tangzhong 1:5 with 5% flour that I usual make, the thickness will be gone while grilling. the hot surface will damage the crumb.
Hi Seraphine I have been a subscriber to your channel for a long time now and everything I know has been learned from you. I didn’t know I enjoyed learning about food science until I came across your videos. I do have a problem I am hoping you can help me with please. The lidded bread tin I have is bigger than the one you use and I can’t convert any of your recipes to fit my tin. My tin measurements are: 32cm wide (measured on the outside at the base - it flares out slightly towards the top) 11cm high 12cm deep Could you please help me, I would love to bake your recipes to fit my tin. Thank you very much Kind regards Donna (Australia)
Several English breadmaking UA-camrs have reduced salt also...oh, by the way, you're awesome. Actually, you should have a lot more followers. Are you happy at this level? Just asking
I would like to congratulate you on your videos and ask you to do me a favor if possible. I couldn't understand the part about the calculation for the total hydration where it talks about the percentage of water contained in the eggs, butter and milk. If you could explain it to me, I would appreciate it. Thank you very much for your attention and greetings from Brazil.
You can read it in the description of the video, also included in the video at the top of recipe information. Loaf Pan External Dimension 21x11x12 cm3 Internal Dimension 19.5x10x10.8 cm3
Since I come from an engineering background, you know I had to spreadsheet all of my dough recipes and mine is eerily similar to yours including sections for yudane, poolish and the main dough. I really appreciate your scientific explanations and research
Thanks for sharing! I use spreadsheet too for the recipe :)
Are you willing to share your spreadsheet??
Another fantastic video! Professor Seraphine is consistently a great presenter and I truly appreciate her ability to concisely and fully explain the basis for her conclusions. For those unfamiliar, I encourage you to check out and support her channel. After searching for years and testing dozens of Shokupan recipes, the recipe she posted previously has been my absolute go-to, perfect, at least once a week recipe. I'm excited to try her new (researched and tested) no honey, no condensed milk recipe. Thanks Seraphine! I look forward to you future videos. [from Hawai`i]
Thanks!
Great video! Just don’t understand how you arrive at Hydration of 203.7. Adding water and milk 120 + 50 is 170 and that is only 57% of flour. Where am si going wrong?
@@christophmueller846eggs, about 73-75% of a whole egg is water, same with butter about X% of butter are water.
@@christophmueller846 Add 50 gms of eggs and you will get the 67.6 percent hydration.
Very good explanation on Tangzhong . Excellent work ! I have seen many other “explanations “ not truly a scientific approach , merely parroting what they have seen from other bakers videos without understanding the in depth reasons . Keep it up ! I like your scientific reasoning very much . Btw I am from Malaysia and enjoy watching your videos !
Thanks! It's good to hear you appreciate the scientific explanations.
Hi. Perfect. It worked the first time, thank you. If you are interested. I left white bread in a plastic bag for a week, after a week the bread did not spoil, it remain soft and tasty Thank you for recept
My new bread. I just made this today. I don't have a Pallman Pan so used a regular loaf pan. Delicious bread. Thank you!
I have made this a few times now, and it has always turned out great. It does take quite a while to proof compared to regular white bread.
This recipe is absolutely fantastic! I've tried four other recipes, but this is definitely the best by far.
More information than I will ever need for making bread. Thank you for your in-depth video on making bread. I am making this recipe while making the bread. Also thank you for making a recipe that is perfect for a one pound pan. Very good presentation skills. Update: Bread just came out of the oven and it looks great. Best Shokupan recipe yet. This is about the 4th recipe I have tried and seems to be the most successful as far as looks. Will be biting into it soon. Update: This is the recipe. Family just had it for dinner and they all agree this is the best Shokupan that I have made. Thank You so much for sharing this recipe and your very detailed video. Best tasting recipe for Japanese Milk Bread.
Thanks for your feedback, I'm happy to hear that everyone liked the bread :)
This is the exact video I needed to see today (as I’m wondering how to improve my milk bread recipe)!Thanks so much!
I like how you include the science on your explaination of shokupan, thank you for sharing this.. ❤❤❤❤
I love that you use a spreadsheet.
Thank you soooo much!With your guiding I made my best shokupan ever!!!Thank you so much for it!!!!
Beautiful science and research presentation. Extremely informative, thank you
Our pleasure!
I was just thinking of making shokupan, so serendipitous finding this video today!
Welcome 😊
Thank you! Finally, the science part AND recipe! ❤
This is exactly what I need! Big thanks for all your work
Just tried this. Turned out amazing. Enriched dough...quite soft and tastes great. Thank you
What an amazing video this is!
Thanks for this.. I’ve been trying to experiment with shokupan recipes for my son’s lunchbox with limited success.
Glad to be of help 😊
@@NovitaListyani Is the adjustment for a different sized pan just a straight multiple of metric volume? (I ask as I bought a Japanese shokupan pan specifically for this purpose 😂).
The recipe is based on weight, so from your Pullman pan, get the internal volume in ltr, and use this information here 4:15 to get the total dough required. Adjust the recipe using the baker's percentage, start by adjusting the the total flour you want to use, cross check the total dough after each adjustment.
@@NovitaListyani ah that makes sense! Thank you again 🙏🏼 😊
here is a short video explaining this: ua-cam.com/users/shortsb2P9UVxCce8
congrats on 100K 🎉
Thanks. Sraphine, you changed my baking to miracles although it's just science. Perfect representation.
Happy to help
ANOTHER Awesome video! Really glad I subscribed... I love food science! THANKS for all your hard work!
Thank you too!
Great info and well explained, tank you so much ❤
Made this recipe on the gram and following the explanation in the video, but the milk bread sags when it comes out of the oven, why? same result 3 times now totally frustrated. Grateful for a reply from someone with the same experience.
In Yamauchi's article, they reported "the resultant starch swelling and gelatinization and protein denaturation in Yudane dough make the gluten networks of the bread dough thick and rough."
So, theoretical if you make a 40% yudane bread (which is sweeter) , it will have poor crumb structure, but this can be overcome by adding more vital wheat gluten to the recipe.
Thank you for your comment. Actually Naito et al, 2005 reported that the gluten fibrils of bread made with Yudane dough were thick and coarse compared to the control. Yamauchi et al quoted their finding.
In many of our videos we mentioned their findings, for example:
ua-cam.com/video/1R62RANFg4Q/v-deo.htmlsi=FGhWnNz4e01KYE7r
Adding vital wheat gluten addresses part of the problem, you still need to raise the hydration to its optimal level:
We discussed this issue here
ua-cam.com/video/HJ6LMqWrZp8/v-deo.html
Great content! I'm using an oven in a commercial kitchen which has only bottom heat, but an optional convection fan. Would convection make any difference in cooking temperature or time? Thanks!
Hi Seraphine, not sure if I missed out the info in your other shokupan vids, it seems ur recipe no longer includes egg?
Hi, I love your detail explanation of every issue you reserched on.
Please, will want to know how you arrived the No in the hydration, like watet in the Milk = 0.87, Water in the whole Egg = 0.74 & Water in the buttr = 0.18.
Will appreciate you helping to know how r arrr at these figures.
Thank you
Hi Seraphine - I made this loaf on the weekend and it turned out superbly.
What I tried right after - was to make such a bread - but with a more noticably "yeasty" flavour - like a sanwich bread that I found in the west indies (That bread may have also been a touch denser). I re-made a loaf - tweaked using your recent Tangzhong work and your Tangzhong/Poolish video from a while back ("Ultimate Basic Asian Bread With Tangzhong and Poolish") - I used 20% & 20%. The poolish did not add as much flavour as I thought would.
What would you recomend to make the loaf more fragrant?
You can raise the Tangzhong percentage to get that extra aroma and natural sweetness. Recently we have been baking bread with Tangzhong 35, working on a video, coming soon.
@@NovitaListyani Tangzhong 35 sounds interesting…Looking forward to your next video - always so much to learn from your work. Thanks!
Love it, u inspired me to bake my own bread
Glad to know that 🙏
Incrível! Receba os parabéns de uma padeira do Brasil. :)
obrigado! Eu realmente gostei disso
I made this! Did some things differently (wrong?). Started the tangzhong; life got in the way; it was in the refrigerator about a week. Mixed and kneaded by hand. It’s a little chilly here and I forgot about it; the first rise ended up about three hours. I didn’t have a one pound pan so I used a larger pan. The dough looked lonely in the pan. The second rise was about two hours. My final bread wasn’t as pretty as yours, but it tastes wonderful.
Well, the taste is the most important part, isn't it :)
I have religious sleep in making the King Arthur Japanese milk bread recipe and I couldn't help but notice this as a much less milk and much less yeast and butter. Why is that? Is the King Arthur recipe trying to make a more indulgent bread? I love your content thank you so much!
I tried this yesterday and it turned out great but my dough didn’t rise as much as yours. I try it again today and I try another brand of dry yeast. The texture of my first shokupan was really lovely though. My wife is Japanese and we can’t buy shokupan where we live. She was really happy with my first try. Wouldn’t it be better to mix the wet ingredients with the dry yeast first and let it activate? Thanks for the great video!
Thank you for your comment. As for the rise, fermentation time plays a key role. It can be longer or shorter depending upon the temperature, dough condition, yeast type and of course its condition.
In the video, the pan size for Shokupan is 21x11x12 cm³. The fermentation time should be considered as a general guideline. From our many attempts, we recommend letting it proof to 1-2 cm below the rim before baking. Ensure your oven is preheated to the baking temperature beforehand. Preheating time may vary depending on your oven.
We use instant yeast in our Shokupan recipe. There's no need to activate it, in fact, activation can make it less effective as explained in one of our latest videos on the topic: ua-cam.com/video/mz3FAr2z2pI/v-deo.html. If you are using active dry yeast, which has larger granules, it does requires activation before use. Although both types of yeast contain baker's yeast, they have distinct characteristics.
@@NovitaListyani Thanks for your reply. I did it again today and put it in the oven at 30 degrees Celsius for the rise and it turned out perfectly!
Thanks for the information about salt. I always felt too salty whenever I put 2% of salt.
Any time!
Educational!
Great Tutorial!
Thank you for sharing!
Greetings from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia 🌹🌹🌹
Edith, a appreciative Subcriber
Thank you too!
Can u pls make a video on how to make a bread store longer in hot weather for days
Best video on this platform. Unfortunately my proof time can take 3 hours. Not sure if my yeast was too low or it's cold where I'm at
Do you heat your water and milk, or let them come to room temperature?
Please consider making a video with sponge and dough method together with yudane 20
Saludos desde México 👋🏻 This is a great video and a really amazing bread. Thank you for the short video on how to scale down/up the recipe. May I ask what is that working surface you use for kneading bread, what is it made of, what are the measures?
Thanks! The work surface we use is a custom-made wooden board with a glass table top.
@@NovitaListyani Thank you for answer me 🙂
Do you have the excel spreadsheet to calculate ingredients for a different loaf pan mine is 13 by 4 inch . How much will
I need of each ingredient ?
Hi, can I use "whole grain" spelt flour to make both Yudane and dough? Is the protein in spelt flour too much for making Shokupan? Thank you for such a terrific work.
Followed this an made the softest milk bread I've baked yet! Thank you! I am curious, with other breads in the past I've steamed the oven to get a better spring, but is that really necessary for this? And what contributes to a softer vs thicker crust? Thanks
Great recipe, and thorough research. I don't have an oven that can turn on the elements individually, so it's kinda an all or nothing thing. Any recommendations on how long to cook, temperature, etc.? Cheers. 😊
I'm not sure if I can give any solid advice as every oven is different, and you may have to experiment a bit to get things just right.
@@NovitaListyani no worries! I tried using a cold pizza stone on the top rack to try absorb some heat, but the top of the bread ended up not rising fully.
Back to the drawing board. 🥴
Hi Seraphine, thanks for your amazing works here. I'd like to know, could we use sponge and dough method with yudane/tangzhong bread recipe?
Of course you can use sponge and dough method, one way to do that is to lower the water used for tangzhong/yudane and also liquid milk, then use the liquid in making sponge or poolish.
@@NovitaListyani thank you 👍
Thanks for your videos. I love how you explain the science behind bread making. I noticed that for some of your recipes, you use the "Milk Water Replacement." How can I use that ratio or percentage? Does that mean I can't easily substitute the same amount of milk for water as commonly thought?
Glad you like them! To answer your question: The proper amount of milk for use in wheat bread was explained here: at 14:52 also from this video: ua-cam.com/video/qXhVxe1DDXE/v-deo.htmlsi=u5LqrKYKU9cv4LUC&t=250
From the paper by Mădălina Iuga et al., 2020, we learned "Bread elasticity, chewiness, resilience, pores density and size were improved at replacement levels lower than 25%, while for the sensory characteristics of the specialty bread, high scores were obtained." All these are attributes we care about when we are making a shokupan, so we limit the milk water replacement to 25% as suggested, but in the case of crispy donuts, we didn't limit that because we were aiming for flavor and other factors, as we were making fried donuts, not a baked white bread.
@@NovitaListyani Just to get further clarity, which milk replacement figure feeds the milk quantity of 50g? Is it 25% or 24.6%? if you can explain the workings would be appreciated
Hello. I hope you are doing well. I like the informations you give on bread a lot. Thank you.
I am thinking of starting a cheese shop with a cheese sandwicherie "grilled cheese" at the side to help boost the revenue and i think shokupan bread is the way to go. May i ask you some questions about the process of making it in big quantities ?
Would it be possible to increase the percentage of milk? Can you do yudane method with milk?
In germany bread labeled as "milkbread" has to contain at least 50% milk in bakers percentage,so you wouldn't be able to sell it as milkbread in germany.
Thank you! Excellent explanation. Can you please link the Pullman loaf pan? 🙏
You can easily find such a pullman pan online with the following measurement: 21x11x12 cm3
Hi Seraphine
Excellent video!! The best one on Shokupan making hands down!!
I just have few questions: 1) How did you calculate that 2.1l of pan should have 550 gms of dough? I get the volume part but how did you convert it into grams for dough?
2) In my country it is very expensive to get strong bread flour so what we do over is add essential wheat gluten in AP flour to make it bread flour. Will that make inferior Shokupan as compared to using expensive bread flour?
I have been making or rather trying to make Shokupan for past few days and hydration is always the issue. I have seen some videos with over 85 percent hydration and there flour handle just fine. My flour at 86% hydration turns into an alien blob running after me in my kitchen. Impossible to handle. This recipe has 67% hydration so I will try making Shokupan again.
Hopefully the results will be better this time.
Also I just learned from your video that Tangzhong requires more mixing but it also very easily breaks. I was kneading my dough and every time it splits I start to knead more because I thought something is wrong. This time I will simply knead it to the moment it looks like in your video and stop it right there.
Thank you so much for this detailed educational video. This has been very helpful!!
Hoping to get some answers from you on my questions whenever you get the time!!
Thank you for your kind comment.
To answer your questions:
1. We actually talk about this in the video starting here: ua-cam.com/video/qdOHmdTTs24/v-deo.html
So, basically we did some experiments and came to the conclusion that the amount of dough for 21x11x12 cm3 (2.1 l) pan should be around 540-600 g which translated to 257 g/l to 286 g/l. We arrived at this number after taking into consideration the amount of loss due to evaporation during baking.
2. If done right, you shouldn't see that much difference between the two. What you need to pay attention to is tangzhong denatures most of the gluten in the flour, so you need to take that into account when you add the gluten.
@@NovitaListyani how do I calculate the correct amount i should use for my loaf pan? i want to scale your recipe for my loaf pan which is 22x11x9 cm^3 big
Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to do this recipe without a dough hook / stand mixer? I kneaded mine but its been two hours and has not doubled, so im afraid i over or under kneaded. Also what is the ideal room temp for the rises?
Instant subscribe. Thanks for the vid, will try to make it soon :) wish me luck!
Best of luck!
Bread turned out great and did not stale the next day which is something new for me! Ended up mixing it for much longer and took ages to proof. It took me more than double the time compared to your instructions. Maybe cos my flour was 12.5% protein? And room temp was roughly 25c, I don't know. But other than that 👌👌. Will def try your other recipes, love the science you provide behind everything.
Very informative, I hope your future videos can include in raisin/fruit yeast as the sole leavener instead.
About 3 years ago we made many videos using fruit yeast water, you may want to check them out. For example, here is a Milk Loaf Bread recipe made with Fruit Yeast Water ua-cam.com/video/J4lyiJjeeH4/v-deo.html
@NovitaListyani oh I'm thinking of including yudane in a fruit yeast loaf.
I see, will do that someday. Thanks for the suggestion.
What about the 9x4x4 pan? Recipe
So if I’m doubling a recipe what precautions should be taken especially for cinnamon rolls?
thanks so much prof!
Welcome!!
@@NovitaListyani I made it today and the dough was really wet and was struggling so I used the stand mixer for a little longer.. the resulting bread was a little dense on the inside. Any tips?
Without knowing all the specifics, I am not so sure I can help you, but dense dough is usually the results of either one or combination of the following issues:
1. Over Kneading or under kneading
Tangzhong bread dough has a higher tenacity but lower tolerance to over mixing/over kneading
2. Under or over fermentation
Tangzhong dough also needs a longer final proofing
3. Flour
You need to use bread flour, Tangzhong practically denatures the protein of the flour, so you end up with less protein in the final dough, which is why you need to use bread flour with a higher protein content to maintain the gas retention capabilities of your dough.
4. Lack of gassing power, this can be caused by expired yeast, or could be due to a cold or hot room temperature that causes the yeast to under ferment or over ferment, respectively.
5. Bad final shaping of the dough
6. Improper baking due to oven issue
Those are some of the issues I can think of.
Mind blowing 🤯
In an upcoming video can you explain the significance of autolyze in making a dough and its overall positive or negative effects on the breads baked?
When I make this bread the edges are very hard! Is there any way to fix that?
Could be various things like the color of the pan, is it dark? Or the type of grease used for the pan.
Lady, geez this is in-depth. What's your CV?
What should be the hydration if I use 100% whole wheat bread flour
I baked this in an approximately 12x12x12 cm aluminum loaf pan with lid on. Flavor and texture are great! However, all six sides after baking collapse inward. I guess, the gas volume inside the loafs contracts when cooling. My question is, can this be prevented? - Otherwise, great result! Will keep baking it!
The causes can be many, it can be due to lack of ingredients or the hydration is way too high.
Can’t wait to try this! I’ve been baking for 3 years and I’ve never heard of this technique.
Is your into music mariachi?? Sounds like our Mexican music.
Thanks for your comment! If you click on the description of the video, you should be able to find our the name of the composer and the title of the song, I believe it's of Mexican origin too.
Good video, Seraphine. I really appreciate a recipe that is backed by science. Tq for doing the research for us.😍 Just would like to check, in the ideal recipe shown in 16:41, how do you calculate the total hydration? Which ingredients you took to calculate that? Coz when I took water + egg + milk, it came to 220g, instead of 203.2g.
Water in Tangzhong 120 g
Water in Milk 0.87x50 = 43.5 g
Water in Whole Egg 0.74x 50 = 37 g
Water in butter 0.18x15 = 2.7 g
@@NovitaListyani Ahh I see...it came from the exact water content from each ingredient. Silly me...😅 Thanks so much for the reply!
@@NovitaListyani but also the size of the egg has to be taken into consideration.. shouldn’t it??
Most Japanese milk bread recipes in English use the yudane or tangzhong method, so it may seem like that’s how you have to make shokupan. However, the classic traditional shokupan recipe used by bakeries and home bakers in Japan doesn’t use tangzhong.
They don't?
You're amazing❤❤
At 12:07 and in the description, you show a boiling water quantity of 120g. The recipe at 27:29 shows a quantity of 160g. This confuses me. Did you mention a change in the water quantity? I must have missed it. Would this have any effect on the recipe?
The recipe at the end is an alternative one for Shokupan milk bread WITHOUT eggs. This video uses eggs, the recipe is provided all along the explanation on the amounts of the ingredients, a clearer view is here 16:45
@@NovitaListyani Argh! I didn’t notice that. How foolish of me. Thank you!
Could you please share humidity percentage of your environment and the final internal temperature of the product? Thanks
Our local humidity is generally above 80%, it's typically very high, and as for the final internal temperature, it should be around 90°C.
Super!
Another question please, I didn’t notice that you kneaded the dough. Was the kneading part of the mixing process? Any alternative processes? I don’t have a stand mixer. I have a hand mixer and a food processor.
With a stand mixer, there's no difference in mixing and kneading. If you want to knead the dough by hand, it may take a bit longer depending on your strength, but the steps are the same.
@@NovitaListyani Thank you. I hope I’m strong enough.
:)
❤ I love shokupan
In the video you included egg but at the very end your ratio ingredient grid was altered to remove the egg and i believe there was more butter included as well as more water for the yudane. Can you explain why? I'm currently using the version at the very end and its felt like a different process from the actual video.
The recipe at the end is the alternative no eggs version, the process should be the same, just skip the addition of the eggs. Eggs contain fat, a slight increase in the amount of butter was meant to compensate for that, observe that, in both recipes, the the total fat content was around 6.1%.
@@NovitaListyani thank you! The bread ended up fantastic, just a little overcooked on my end bc of my oven but the end result still delicious! I was concerned how different it looked from the video, but trust the baking science! Thank you again for this video it was extremely educational and it definitely gave me more knowledge and confidence to bake more
Is there a recommended conversion ratio of water+milk powder for the liquid milk?
You need to follow the instructions on the package of the specific brand you use.
Bread is an essential part of every morning. I buy bread at supermarkets, but I'm in trouble because the price keeps going up. Have a good Sunday🍞
It seems like prices on wheat products are going up everywhere, nevertheless, have a beautiful Sunday 😎
@@NovitaListyani You too 🍞
Does the increased maltose raise the glycemic index value for this bread?
Shokupan, and most white bread for that matter, is considered to be a high glycemic load food.
@@NovitaListyani I was wondering if the the yudane method increased the glycemic index rating compared to the same bread done conventionally... for any bread really. For example, a whole grain sourdough. And in the case of sourdough, would a long, cold ferment in the refrigerator maybe reduce the added maltose?
When I mix 60g of flour and 120g of boiling water to make Yudane, the mixture is totally not as thick as in the vdo. I believe something is wrong somewhere.
Hmm, it's most likely that the water isn't hot enough or that your room temperature is very cold.
I just ran into the exact same issue, It was in fact water not being hot enough. Can’t wait to make the rest tomorrrow 🤓
Great video! I just don’t understand how you arrive at a hydration of 203.2 g (67.7%), when water an milk in the recipe only add up to 170g (56.7%). Where am I going wrong?
Water in Tangzhong 120 g
Water in Milk 0.87x50 = 43.5 g
Water in Whole Egg 0.74x 50 = 37 g
Water in butter 0.18x15 = 2.7 g
Great! Thank you for explaining!
I've been learning so much from your videos, thank you!
I have a beginner's question. If our goal is to achieve fluffy bread, why do we roll out the dough after the final proof (before rolling up into the loaf pan)? Wouldn't that remove the bubbles we waited so long to get?
Final proof as the name implied is the final fermentation period for the dough, after that the dough typically goes straight to the oven. So, there shouldn't be any degassing.
@@NovitaListyaniSorry, I meant to refer to the previous 'double in size' proofing before rolling into the loaf tin. Wouldn't shaping it into the tin without rolling it result in more air in the loaf?
It doesn't quite work like that. While leaving the dough alone would preserve the gas, it also would likely lead to overproofing with the time frame of this recipe, excessive gas in the dough can cause it to collapse in the oven. Degassing the dough at that step is also important because it allows us to get a finer and more uniform crumb, due to the further subdivision of the gas cells, preventing the dough from having just a few big gaping holes. At the same time, this step also allows us to basically redistribute the dough's nutrients and yeast. This ultimately allows the yeast to better access the nutrient, and continue fermentation. Adding to this is the extra benefit that comes from shaping the dough after it has been degassed, which is a stronger, better developed gluten structure.
@@NovitaListyani Makes sense, thank you!
@@NovitaListyani You're fantastic in your explanation. And why for sourdough bread we don't degass after bulk fermentation? I always wonder why
nice
if you added only 120g of water for a final content of 203g...
Is the rest of the water coming from the milk and the egg?? Thank you in advance!!
From the description box: Note on hydration calculation:
Water in Tangzhong 120 g
Water in Milk 0.87x50 = 43.5 g
Water in Whole Egg 0.74x 50 = 37 g
Water in butter 0.18x15 = 2.7 g
Total Liquid = 203.2 g
Total Flour = 300 g
Hydration = 100%*203.2/300 = 67.7%
@@NovitaListyani thank you!! 👍
Can you appreciate the difference between the recipe with egg and w/o egg ( the last one un yor video ) ?
Technically the inclusion of whole eggs in wheat flour dough recipes increase dough development time, dough stability, and dough strength upon further mixing. Their interactions with other ingredients also bring out many interesting emergent properties. We plan to do a more technical aspects of video on the inclusion of eggs in bread making.
i use your recipe, but the dough got too sticky, is it because the high hydration? what should we know whether the dough under or over knead, under or over proof?
At about 67%, this is actually not a high hydration bread dough, what happened could be due to a variety of reasons. Overkneading is a potential reason, but it does take a quite long while of mixing to achieve with a stand mixer and it should be quite obvious if you observe your dough. If it doesn't look smooth, and it can't pass the windowpane test, then it might be underkneaded.
For the fermentation time, I'm assuming you mean bulk fermentation, and that could also be a possibility if your weather was very warm. If your dough was good before the fermentation and it became unmanageable after, then it's likely over-fermented. It could also be because of the kind of flour you're using, it might be less capable of absorbing water, leading to a stickier dough.
Without knowing the exact specifics, it's hard to figure out the cause, but I would start with the factors above.
I try use mixer for about 30 minutes but the dough still under kneaded ( doesn’t look smooth and can’t pass windowpane)
30 minutes???? That's definitely over kneaded! Watch the video starting 19:12, overall kneading with stand mixer is about 11-12 minutes.
@@NovitaListyani i’m using hand but for 30 min the dough still sticky
i tried it, the taste is wonderful, but sorry it wasn't successful , the case was the proofing. I think on this method, dough is very hard to blow while baking like a baloon. I tried with two different ways, one was with shokupan pan close top, another rounding on usual flat tray.
sorry i share my experince during baking with tangzhonf. If i use tangzhong 1:5 with 5% flour, the dough is very good to blow like a baloon while baking. so, stop 1-2 cm under the lid, it is still okay, can be full until top.
thank you for sharing, i like this channel very much. ❤
Pan size? Amount of total flour? Amount of milk? Hydration? Without these basic information, there's no way to tell what's going on there.
@@NovitaListyani okay sorry i didn't give the data. i used pan 12x12x30 cm with amount 1080gr splited to 4 parts 270gr. Flour 1kg with Hydration total 700gr, yudane 400gr, main dough 300gr. total fat 70gr or 7%
Well, I try to make sense of your numbers, but they don't seem to be adding up.
@@NovitaListyani thanks miss novita
I found something cool, i toasted this shokupan, the construction of crumb was very strong while grilling. so the shape was still thick.
comparing tangzhong 1:5 with 5% flour that I usual make, the thickness will be gone while grilling. the hot surface will damage the crumb.
Hi Seraphine
I have been a subscriber to your channel for a long time now and everything I know has been learned from you. I didn’t know I enjoyed learning about food science until I came across your videos.
I do have a problem I am hoping you can help me with please.
The lidded bread tin I have is bigger than the one you use and I can’t convert any of your recipes to fit my tin.
My tin measurements are:
32cm wide (measured on the outside at the base - it flares out slightly towards the top)
11cm high
12cm deep
Could you please help me, I would love to bake your recipes to fit my tin.
Thank you very much
Kind regards
Donna (Australia)
Thanks for your support! We are going to post a short video soon to explain how to scale the dough up or down to fit a specific loaf pan.
here is the video: ua-cam.com/users/shortsb2P9UVxCce8
why u dont use poolish
Several English breadmaking UA-camrs have reduced salt also...oh, by the way, you're awesome. Actually, you should have a lot more followers. Are you happy at this level? Just asking
Thanks for the comment, and to answer your question, definitely not! Just joking ;)
I would like to congratulate you on your videos and ask you to do me a favor if possible. I couldn't understand the part about the calculation for the total hydration where it talks about the percentage of water contained in the eggs, butter and milk. If you could explain it to me, I would appreciate it. Thank you very much for your attention and greetings from Brazil.
is bread with yudane and poolish can be call diabetes ok
Great video. Thank you very much.
What is the size of your loaf pan?
You can read it in the description of the video, also included in the video at the top of recipe information.
Loaf Pan
External Dimension 21x11x12 cm3
Internal Dimension 19.5x10x10.8 cm3
beautiful, articulate, intelligent, conservatively dressed... and can cook!
:)
my like made it thousand like oh yea
Omg... My head hurts now. Lol.
💛
😄🙏
"Pan" in Spanish is "pan". Maybe it comes fron Spanish and not the Portuguese "pao".
ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%91%E3%83%B3
I love you, 😗❤️
Will you marry me 💝😍
Sorry I fell asleep in the middle 😅