People faulting Garmin here are missing the reality of electronics components. It’s difficult to think of any compute-driven device that’s been supported as long as the GNS.
As a career product planner, I’m staggered at what they have attempted to do by deliberately side-stepping the opportunity to build slide-in replacements for the 430/530, particularly since those units were the factory-supplied equipment stack in a huge number of Part 23 certified GA models from factories around the world. Isn’t the average age of a GA airplane between 40-50 years old? They had to know support would be required (or replacement made easy) for more than 25 years. Using their dealer network as the “certified installer” to preserve Part 23 compliance at the highest-possible cost, they built solutions that are anything but simple or affordable. It feels deliberately complex and forceful. THIS is where the bellyaching about foreseen obsolescence (if not ‘planned’) is coming from.
Good point. Ballparking the realistic support timeline for Cessna's digital radios that were standard OEM, you might come up with roughly 25 years. Supply for the seven-segment display digits used in the RT385/485-series, and cavity tubes for the ARC transponders, dried up around the 20-year timeframe. Worth looking at old analog King Silver Crown, gear, too. Also an OEM standard.
GARMIN LOWER COST DATA UPDATES $149/$399yr. to $30/$100. This is basic USA update, no terrain, obstacle, taxi. . GARMIN gets FREE data from FAA, TAX PAYERS fund, plus updates are minor. Garmin's update and repair fees and cost are outrageous.
If Garmin wanted you to have slide-in replacement they would've done it years ago. Their goal is to drive you out of your stinky airplane until you pay $500 a year for the updates that they get from government for free and pay 30K every ten years for the panel upgrade and pay luxury tax on new avionics you install at Garmin dealer at the cost equal to the unit you bought.
Try the Avidyne IFD440 and IFD550/540 which are slide in replacements for the Garmin 430/530. The IFD550/540 also has a $2K rebate to trade-in your 530.
@@johnsalak6738 I went that route. Trade-in didn't apply to my old 430W since it was a 28V-only unit. The IFD is fantastic and luckily I saved a lot on labor with the slide-in design. Hardest part about my upgrade was selling the 430W with all the scammers out there.
@@johnsalak6738 If the Avidyne IFD 440 didn't cost almost $10K after trading in a 430W, I might be interested in it, but since that is about twice the cost of a used 430W, I will take my chances with the less expensive option!
Interesting video - thanks for putting it together. I'm not a great Garmin fan for far too many reasons, but it's important to hear what Garmin has to say. BTW, the left and right sound channels are swapped - you're on the left side of screen, but in the right speaker. I validated my own left/right settings with the Win11 built-in test to be sure my speakers are connected "right way round".
See what you mean. Thanks for the useful input, rather than useless nitpicking. It's the first time we used a remote studio for recording in hopes of creating better quality video. We'll perfect the audio channels next time.
$2000 for the repair of a 430, that shows a non charging back up battery, and has a processor that needs service. Speaking about a ripoff. Especially because it is a unit that was "repaired" previously by Garmin in 2022. Now, if that would include a WAAS upgrade, it would still be high, but more defendable. My question is why this was not done with the initial repair?
If somebody could make a fix or aftermarket screen for the 430 and 530 they could make a lot of money. There’s still are still thousands of 430s and 530s out there flying.
What do you think a lot of money is? Considering what it costs to develop a display module and get one of these assembly lines online and certified, a run of a few thousand obsolete display modules normally worth a few dollars each would absolutely operate at a loss unless you were ripping everyone off.
Garmin's minimum repair fee is extortionate. But you can get reasonable (by aviation terms...) repair work done by somebody like Bevan Aviation. They refurbed mine (new buttons, new memory battery) for around $900 if I remember correctly.
Please don't mix left/right for the different speakers. But if you do, don't swap them. Garmin is screen right, audio left, and AC is screen left, audio right.
Perhaps, but only if there is limited teardown and installation effort. Avidyne attempted to do just that when it brought the IFD440 to market-a unit that fits in a GNS430 tray and uses most of the existing wiring and connected accessories.
I can't help but believe there was protectionism for Garmin dealers and installation shops. If they designed a slide in, like Avidyne, all their dealers would be out of business. The government (FAA) is helping them too by requiring to use the same repair parts as when manufactured. For an electronic device, that's ridiculous. Try shooting a non precision GPS practice approach with your Ipad, or Android device. Then use your panel mounted GPS. See any difference? No.... But, you have to use a panel mounted device. That's protectionism by the FAA.
Well, I feel your distrust and your Garming argument is the strongest. But why would Garmin... They have the freedom as a company to decide how to use their time and invest their money, 25 years for a certified MSDOS computer is to me a big thing. Besides, as they say, they don´t produce all the subparts. And a slide in? A new screen to such a very old motherboard would even in your PC a ridiculous decision, let alone certify it during IMC where your customers fly. As a pilot regarding the panel mount comment, I really don't see your point. Throwing away: essential/secondary bus, alternator + battery powersource, circuitbreakers, autopilot + cockpit HSI coupling out of the window are to me just plain stupid. Maybe because I'm from Europe, but in my training 12 years ago these arguments where tought to me as safety's and written in blood. So I agree with the FAA, panel mount is what you should want.
@@JMGliderYou make some good points. However, the cost of panel mounted GPSs are so high that it puts them out of reach of the average pilot in the US. As an example, a android tablet costs around $200 US. And I could actually fly a non precision approach with it, if it were legal. A panel mounted Garmin GPS 175 is over $5,000 US, plus install. A GTN 650xi is over $17,000 installed! Are they really worth that much? If you own your own business, and can write the cost off, yes. But, most can barely afford to pay for fuel these days. My airplane will soon be up for sale and whoever buys it can spend all that money if they want. Maybe if I borrow the money, Joe Biden will forgive the loan, like he did for rich students college loans?
@@azcharlie2009 Yeah agreed about the money part, the cost is enourmous. Just realize you guys in the US really are in another world regarding IFR flying for private people. Here almost nobody flies IFR for private flying, it's just not what people do and it is often times not even possible. Night VFR is also done more for the rating as a backup, than what people actually use preplanned. So the end result is the the US market is 80% of the world market. The quantities are not so high I guess, but maybe I'm totally incorrect.
Tough spot. Apple gets you to buy each new iPhone at $1500 a pop. Problem is a new GTN 650 is $13000 installed as a slide in replace for 430. Did 3 of them for flying club. GTN 650 is so much easier to use, capable.
Not surprising they can't get components. The parts situation-- availability, price and quality-- is terrible. It's causing me to consider selling my plane. Just went through several spinner bulkheads that didn't fit, last one modified slightly by the mechanic n order to get the spinner on, despite being parts from an FAA certified manufacturer. When campared to each othere, NONE of them were the same dimensions. Been waiting a quart of TCP for 2 mos.
Sorry but I don’t think you could have made this interview any more softball. As a journalist you should be asking questions that are pointed and relevant, not justifying your own question even before your interviewee gets a chance to answer. The question whether or not Garmin is indeed working on planned obsolescence aside, the way the question is posed leaves much to be desired.
No, you're wrong. Anglisano's questions couldn't have been more direct and pertinent to the issue after first doing the technical research that most others have not done. The interview addressed the questions GNS owners have been asking after incorrect information has been circulated in the field. Are these units orphans, what failure makes the GNS unrepairable, what are the factory repair charges if the unit can't be repaired, what are the charges if it can be repaired, what are the replacement options, what is Garmin doing to keep the units working even after 25 years of support and what can users do to preserve the extinct display. These questions and answers are all in this interview, plus more in the follow-on print article.
@@richard8181 except MS brought a product to market every 2 years or so just as Apple, Samsung, LG, and the rest of the tech giants are doing now. I wouldn't call an electronic device that has been around for 25 years as being planned obsolescence. I deal in security alarms and home automation devices for a living. Technologically speaking every device I sell is already obsolete but there is an expected lifetime of about 7-10 years on most of those things. I find it astounding that the GNS has lasted this long. I'm sure this discussion will be happening in about 5 years or so about the first gen GTNs. At least they have a slide-in replacement already.
In the past 20 years, how many thousands have you spent on smart phones as they become outdated and obsolete? Yes, the cost is high for replacement - but compare the amortized cost against any of the consumer electronics in your home. I think most would be surprised..
People faulting Garmin here are missing the reality of electronics components. It’s difficult to think of any compute-driven device that’s been supported as long as the GNS.
As a career product planner, I’m staggered at what they have attempted to do by deliberately side-stepping the opportunity to build slide-in replacements for the 430/530, particularly since those units were the factory-supplied equipment stack in a huge number of Part 23 certified GA models from factories around the world.
Isn’t the average age of a GA airplane between 40-50 years old? They had to know support would be required (or replacement made easy) for more than 25 years.
Using their dealer network as the “certified installer” to preserve Part 23 compliance at the highest-possible cost, they built solutions that are anything but simple or affordable. It feels deliberately complex and forceful.
THIS is where the bellyaching about foreseen obsolescence (if not ‘planned’) is coming from.
Good point. Ballparking the realistic support timeline for Cessna's digital radios that were standard OEM, you might come up with roughly 25 years. Supply for the seven-segment display digits used in the RT385/485-series, and cavity tubes for the ARC transponders, dried up around the 20-year timeframe. Worth looking at old analog King Silver Crown, gear, too. Also an OEM standard.
Bizarre that Garmin doesn’t offer a slide-in replacement, but Avidyne does. Avidyne will be my choice when my 430W flies west.
GARMIN LOWER COST DATA UPDATES $149/$399yr. to $30/$100.
This is basic USA update, no terrain, obstacle, taxi. .
GARMIN gets FREE data from FAA, TAX PAYERS fund, plus updates are minor.
Garmin's update and repair fees and cost are outrageous.
I wish Garmin would make a slide in replacement. We would all buy one.
If Garmin wanted you to have slide-in replacement they would've done it years ago. Their goal is to drive you out of your stinky airplane until you pay $500 a year for the updates that they get from government for free and pay 30K every ten years for the panel upgrade and pay luxury tax on new avionics you install at Garmin dealer at the cost equal to the unit you bought.
Try the Avidyne IFD440 and IFD550/540 which are slide in replacements for the Garmin 430/530. The IFD550/540 also has a $2K rebate to trade-in your 530.
@@johnsalak6738 I went that route. Trade-in didn't apply to my old 430W since it was a 28V-only unit. The IFD is fantastic and luckily I saved a lot on labor with the slide-in design. Hardest part about my upgrade was selling the 430W with all the scammers out there.
@@johnsalak6738 If the Avidyne IFD 440 didn't cost almost $10K after trading in a 430W, I might be interested in it, but since that is about twice the cost of a used 430W, I will take my chances with the less expensive option!
The 650 fits in a 430 slot.
Interesting video - thanks for putting it together. I'm not a great Garmin fan for far too many reasons, but it's important to hear what Garmin has to say.
BTW, the left and right sound channels are swapped - you're on the left side of screen, but in the right speaker. I validated my own left/right settings with the Win11 built-in test to be sure my speakers are connected "right way round".
See what you mean. Thanks for the useful input, rather than useless nitpicking. It's the first time we used a remote studio for recording in hopes of creating better quality video. We'll perfect the audio channels next time.
$2000 for the repair of a 430, that shows a non charging back up battery, and has a processor that needs service. Speaking about a ripoff. Especially because it is a unit that was "repaired" previously by Garmin in 2022. Now, if that would include a WAAS upgrade, it would still be high, but more defendable. My question is why this was not done with the initial repair?
If somebody could make a fix or aftermarket screen for the 430 and 530 they could make a lot of money. There’s still are still thousands of 430s and 530s out there flying.
What do you think a lot of money is? Considering what it costs to develop a display module and get one of these assembly lines online and certified, a run of a few thousand obsolete display modules normally worth a few dollars each would absolutely operate at a loss unless you were ripping everyone off.
If you invested about $2M, you will loose that, but make $1M. Sad, but true.
Yea, we will replace the glass on your unit if you scratch it. Did he mention that minimum repair cost at Garmin is $2000 (bench fee) + parts? Snakes!
Garmin's minimum repair fee is extortionate. But you can get reasonable (by aviation terms...) repair work done by somebody like Bevan Aviation. They refurbed mine (new buttons, new memory battery) for around $900 if I remember correctly.
Buttons and knobs are superior to touchscreens. Change my mind.
Long live the KX-170B’s!
I get the part problem. Buy a used 430 for a fraction the cost of a new GPS. Maps are still supported.
would have been better if I did not have to turn the Volume to max to hear Garmin than hope I could get it turned back down as to not blow my speakers
There's no audio playback issues.
You're joking right? Horrible discrepancy between audio levels. And quality.
you better long in to UA-cam and watch it @@aviationconsumermagazine450
Please don't mix left/right for the different speakers. But if you do, don't swap them. Garmin is screen right, audio left, and AC is screen left, audio right.
Does it save an aircraft owner more money to upgrade a cheaper product periodically vs. maintaining a more expensive product periodically?
Perhaps, but only if there is limited teardown and installation effort. Avidyne attempted to do just that when it brought the IFD440 to market-a unit that fits in a GNS430 tray and uses most of the existing wiring and connected accessories.
I can't help but believe there was protectionism for Garmin dealers and installation shops. If they designed a slide in, like Avidyne, all their dealers would be out of business. The government (FAA) is helping them too by requiring to use the same repair parts as when manufactured. For an electronic device, that's ridiculous. Try shooting a non precision GPS practice approach with your Ipad, or Android device. Then use your panel mounted GPS. See any difference? No.... But, you have to use a panel mounted device. That's protectionism by the FAA.
Well, I feel your distrust and your Garming argument is the strongest. But why would Garmin... They have the freedom as a company to decide how to use their time and invest their money, 25 years for a certified MSDOS computer is to me a big thing. Besides, as they say, they don´t produce all the subparts. And a slide in? A new screen to such a very old motherboard would even in your PC a ridiculous decision, let alone certify it during IMC where your customers fly.
As a pilot regarding the panel mount comment, I really don't see your point. Throwing away: essential/secondary bus, alternator + battery powersource, circuitbreakers, autopilot + cockpit HSI coupling out of the window are to me just plain stupid. Maybe because I'm from Europe, but in my training 12 years ago these arguments where tought to me as safety's and written in blood. So I agree with the FAA, panel mount is what you should want.
@@JMGliderYou make some good points. However, the cost of panel mounted GPSs are so high that it puts them out of reach of the average pilot in the US. As an example, a android tablet costs around $200 US. And I could actually fly a non precision approach with it, if it were legal. A panel mounted Garmin GPS 175 is over $5,000 US, plus install. A GTN 650xi is over $17,000 installed! Are they really worth that much? If you own your own business, and can write the cost off, yes. But, most can barely afford to pay for fuel these days. My airplane will soon be up for sale and whoever buys it can spend all that money if they want. Maybe if I borrow the money, Joe Biden will forgive the loan, like he did for rich students college loans?
@@azcharlie2009 Yeah agreed about the money part, the cost is enourmous. Just realize you guys in the US really are in another world regarding IFR flying for private people. Here almost nobody flies IFR for private flying, it's just not what people do and it is often times not even possible. Night VFR is also done more for the rating as a backup, than what people actually use preplanned.
So the end result is the the US market is 80% of the world market. The quantities are not so high I guess, but maybe I'm totally incorrect.
Would you do a show about the GPS 155 TSO ??
Tough spot. Apple gets you to buy each new iPhone at $1500 a pop. Problem is a new GTN 650 is $13000 installed as a slide in replace for 430. Did 3 of them for flying club. GTN 650 is so much easier to use, capable.
Certainly not a "slide in". Very costly installation on top of the unit. Avidyne does a much better job.
Not surprising they can't get components. The parts situation-- availability, price and quality-- is terrible. It's causing me to consider selling my plane. Just went through several spinner bulkheads that didn't fit, last one modified slightly by the mechanic n order to get the spinner on, despite being parts from an FAA certified manufacturer. When campared to each othere, NONE of them were the same dimensions. Been waiting a quart of TCP for 2 mos.
Bidenomics.
Sorry but I don’t think you could have made this interview any more softball. As a journalist you should be asking questions that are pointed and relevant, not justifying your own question even before your interviewee gets a chance to answer. The question whether or not Garmin is indeed working on planned obsolescence aside, the way the question is posed leaves much to be desired.
No, you're wrong. Anglisano's questions couldn't have been more direct and pertinent to the issue after first doing the technical research that most others have not done. The interview addressed the questions GNS owners have been asking after incorrect information has been circulated in the field. Are these units orphans, what failure makes the GNS unrepairable, what are the factory repair charges if the unit can't be repaired, what are the charges if it can be repaired, what are the replacement options, what is Garmin doing to keep the units working even after 25 years of support and what can users do to preserve the extinct display. These questions and answers are all in this interview, plus more in the follow-on print article.
Sounds like they are following the MS philosophy of obsolescence. 🤔
@@richard8181 except MS brought a product to market every 2 years or so just as Apple, Samsung, LG, and the rest of the tech giants are doing now. I wouldn't call an electronic device that has been around for 25 years as being planned obsolescence. I deal in security alarms and home automation devices for a living. Technologically speaking every device I sell is already obsolete but there is an expected lifetime of about 7-10 years on most of those things. I find it astounding that the GNS has lasted this long. I'm sure this discussion will be happening in about 5 years or so about the first gen GTNs. At least they have a slide-in replacement already.
Market needs a slide in replacement
In the past 20 years, how many thousands have you spent on smart phones as they become outdated and obsolete? Yes, the cost is high for replacement - but compare the amortized cost against any of the consumer electronics in your home. I think most would be surprised..
Throw away to my mailbox
Remember how awesome they were when they came out. Now they look like a KX-155 to me.
Ha I love my 430W. It works great and the cost to replace it is just staggering. And those 155s were good radios! :)