If the Emperor took a look at Angron and thought "eh, good enough" then the two lost primarchs must have already been chaos worshipping cultists to have rejected them.
@@Freekymohoboth legions are so players can make their own chapters, one loyal for the space marines and one traitor for the chaos side so it would be reasonable to assume one of the primarchs was killed either by the other missing primarch or that they were infected
That's not true actually....not at all. That's what the wiki and lex says and it's patently untrue. You should watch sandman and amber King for a full explained. That's an after-explanation made by GW. Originally it was so that 2 would be a constant mystery and were supposed to be ever present, but hidden antagonist to pull out when stuff got stale
@@Freekymoho Xeno can be just as bad as chaos, a 3 way war would be just as bad if not worse than a civil war and we do not know what the emperor was rushing with the crusade for still.
It was something like that, if i recall it was hidden from the rest of the others, and very obviously sealed shut with psychic doohickies and defended by traps. There was very heavily implied to be something in there, particularly in the XI’s.
My headcannon on gork and mork is that they are two krorks that in trayzens collection, but still psychically connected to all orks and are trying to communicate and failing to be perceived as anything more than gods because of how simplistic their species has become
Looking at what the Emperor punishes it's likely at least one was a pacifist. If he failed peacefully to convince a planet to join he would just leave them be, and he most likely didn't murder Xenos on sight but provokation.
"If they were with us now, this war would have already been lost." A powerful sentence for Dorn himself to speak. So even Dorn knew that if those two lived after everything that happened, they would join Horus and everything would be lost.
Maybe not, could just be that there would have been too many extremely strong enemies. Regardless of their alliance or otherwise. An equal goal doesn't equal aligning views. i.e. These "lost" Primarchs could have attacked during the weakening of the imperium robbing chaos of their win completely. Maybe one would have easily had access to Humanity's golden era tech with a view on Xeno or even AI as more than positive. Xenophile and AI users completely antithetical to either Chaos or The Imperium.
My new head canon is the the two primarch were really clumsy idiots, and their stupidity played for the enemy. Cue to the lost primarch triping and their weapons firing at their allies.
Curze and Angron were useful, mostly did what they were told (nevermind the excesses), and didn't rock the boat much. They would not have been able to gather a following had they rebelled, and it would not have been that shocking had they turned insane.
@@grahamlopez3742given that the Emperor only punished Lorgar for being a slow conqueror it could be one was just a nice guy that didn't want to kill. He would come to a planet try to convince them to join then leave if he couldn't the Emperor is pissed at him sucking more then Lorgar and purges him after finding out he wasn't even killing Xenos.
Makes you think, If konrad was good in BigEs eyes then what did the lost 2 do? Worshiping a chaos God? Loving on xenos? Openly defining BigE? System wide genocide? Maybe they were to nice?
The two emotions that are missing are lust(fulgrim doesn't count he was perfection) and greed(idk if there are greedy primarch) So if i had a gooning son and a trash hoarder son i wouldn't want the world to see it too
Yeah and after being killed by Russ his soul went to Warp, harnessed power beyond imagination and ascended to Godhood and now is known as Great Horned Rat The End
They are often referred to as "the forgotten and the purged" meaning on top of Malcador saying that the second and eleventh legions did not share their primarchs fate, means that one likely died in a conflict, probably the Rangdan xenocide, while the other was purged for reasons we don't know.
But sanginus fears that his sons will be purged like the lost primarch's legion and speaks to horus about it. I dont think both legions were disolved one of them had huge genetic defect and had to go.
There is a theory that the 2nd and 11th's legions were actually absorbed into the Ultra Marines and the Imperial Fists through different, new founding Astartes chapters. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but it explains some of the weirder chapters Dorn and Guilliman have under their wing.
@@Kirbyftw402 it's a good theory but it has one problem, chapters were created in the aftermath of the Heresy, but the II and IX disappeared during the greate crusade, so it's still at least couple of years of the merged existance.
Roboute Guilliman, finally resting for the first time in centuries. A thought crosses his mind. "Alpharius and Omegon were twins, but Hydras have more than two heads.... Fuck, what if Alpharius and Omegon weren't twins?" He stands up and opts to practice his swordsmanship. "Father damn it all. I'm awake for the next century at the very least because of this."
One of them fell on a planet with xenos - he regarded them as his people. But when the imperium found him, it all changed. For a time the xenos was left alone. But when the primarch was sent to a distant area of the galaxy he received astropathic communications that his planet had been attacked. When he returned, two fleets orbited the scattered remains of the once beautiful and lush planet. He voxed the lead vessel, and rogal dorn answered the call. "Lower the void shields, You are to be apprehended, and sent back to Terra" the preatorian said. Disbelief drowned the 2nd primarch. "Do as he said" a voice behind him uttered. The 2nd turned around, his first captain aiming the bolter to his head. Simultaneously, deafening bolter rounds was shot at the Xenos crew. One single word echoed in the primarchs mind "BETRAYAL"
that's my personal head canon for one of the lost primarchs too,,, that it wasn't that he fell to chaos,but that he did not share the same views about xenos,psykers,etc and refused to go along with the policy that the emperor and his brothers had,,,and it eventually came to a breaking point. That he could have been a truly noble and great primarch,not fallen like the other lost primarch and because of that,might not have been actually destroyed,but put in a stasis of a kind,,, there is that one cell on terra marked "XI" after all,,,
I do enjoy the Xenos theory. Maybe not the Rogal or Alpharius addition but they make sense at least. This could be a canon event with this set up and it would hit hard as well imo. The best books in the heresy series are the ones where either peaceful human civs like the interex or human xeno hybrids were unnecessarily whiped out. Feels like an Angron plot with more depth. For the 12 Primarch however I have no idea what to do. Maybe make him similiar to the semi-independent perpetuals in that he is more autonomous in thought as well as relation to the Emperor.
@@Thalanox Eh,and how much of that is the imperium and the emperor's own fault? iirc,there WERE xenos races that could have been worked with but they were gotten rid of,,,so all they got left is to have fun with the orkz,tyranids,drukhari,etc lol
That they committed acts that gave the Emperor who views almost all beings as tools enough cause to erase them from memories and ALL records speaks volumes.
They didn’t have to commit “acts”. All they had to do was believe in completely different values than the Imperium. The purged could have been a fanatical xenophile who refused to join the xenocidal Imperium at all costs. That’s the sort of ideological difference you can’t change. The other one? A pacifist who refused to unite humanity forcibly. Both of these are complete anathema to the ideals of Great Crusade and thus would warrant a hard censure.
@@artturisiikanen3843 Unlikely considering that the role of diplomat was already fullfilled by Horus. Many people forget what Horus was before Chaos. He wasnt the best fighter or the greatest strategist. He was just extremely charming and diplomatic. Many of his victories were won through diplomacy since most people would simply want to join his side after a conversation with him. This is why he could get so many of his brothers to join him.
It was point blank mentioned during a conversation between Malcador and Russ if I recall rightly (during the HH, when Russ planned to atack Horus fleet directly and to execute Horus himself) that "this is not the first time he (Russ) was sent to end a primarch". It was thus hinted that he was the one who killed at least one of the forgotten primarchs and also the reason why he is called "The Emperors Executioner".
From what little we know they were probably pretty powerful. However, something done by them (seemingly specifically by their own actions) was extremely dangerous. But with no clues about any of their impact it’s impossible to know what happened. I think they will come back at some point. But by then they won’t be the same beings as they were in the beginning.
The unfortunate truth of the situation is that the "lost legions" were there to allow creative 30k/HH players to homebrew their own Legions, so GW will likely never create official lore for them. Does this infuriate me as a lover of lore? Yes. Does this also make sense from a creative standpoint? Also yes.
@@firehazardentertainment8381 no. You're spreading lies. According to Rick Priestley, the Lost Primarchs were created to provide a deep background for the Horus Heresy. Priestley, who originally wrote the background for the Horus Heresy, created the Lost Primarchs and the Lost Legions to add "unknowable ten thousand year old mysteries" to the story.
One of the two, it is never confirmed as to which, almost certainly was killed during the Rangdan Xenocides. The Lion was in ultimate command, with the vast bulk of the 1st with him (~250k Astartes at this point, making him the largest Legion), at least one Great Company of the Space Wolves, elements of the Imperial Fists, and either the bulk/entirety of either the Second or Eleventh Legion, as well as multiple Titan Legions and Imperial Army/Solar Auxilia. The Rangdan were hosts to the Slaught, who are still a problem in current 40k as a minor xenos (though, they have very thoroughly infiltrated the Calixis Sector), but the Rangdan were their real power, with creatures large enough to win engagements with titans. Something went wrong, the details are sparse, but we are talking horribly wrong where Lion had to appeal to the Emperor to aid them because even with the forces at his disposal, shit was unlikely to go in their favor. Emps had to get something out of the Labyrinth of Old Night to turn the battle. What exactly happened to the Lost Primarch there isn't stated, but he was mentioned as having been part of the forces at the start, but not mentioned as having survived. Given that the Dark Angels lost over 20% of their Legion in this war, the likely outcome was the 2nd/11th Legion was either utterly crushed, tactically screwed, or also quite likely compromised. Rangdan had creatures called Cerbevores, which would eat the brains of their targets, while still also being hosts to another creature. Should the legion have been compromised in such a manner, it would explain more as to why the Rangdan Xenocides are one of the best kept secrets in regards to what actually happened in the Imperium, as nearly all information as to what happened was struck from record. Until the Horus Heresy, the Rangdan Xenocides are credited with being the greatest threat to the Imperium of Man, requiring the direct intervention of the Emperor to avert the destruction of 2 legions, one of which being the largest and best equipped.
@@flinchsohn2912Well. I will say one thing. Maybe the 11th. bit the 2nd was last seen with Necrons. Check out the Fsbius Bile books. Contains a tonne of information on the 2nd Primarch
With Dorn saying the war would be lost if they existed to me that points to at least one of them being a Chaos worshipper and therefore would have joined Horus
The Lost Primarchs were insane and unstable. They were possessed of equal and opposing warp forces in too great of strength. They could not survive these internal stresses and rapidly mutated.
@@emzetkin1100 Yeah, at least one of them, iirc Guilliman mentions that one "was lost to us" and the other one "failed" or something like that, so it's likely one of them had a geneseed flaw that was too great (based on Sanguinius being afraid of being sheesh kebabed if the Red Thirst became known) and the other one I would imagine died off during the Rangdan Xenocides in some way, possibly joining them or something like that, it's likely that the Lost was killed by Leman due to his Flaw and the Forgotten was killed either by the Rangdan (assuming he didn't join them), the Lion (as his legion was the one that took the most loses during that time, so we can assume he was the one to fight the Rangdan primarly) or again Leman That's my theory at least
Only the emperor knew of alpharius and omegon when the alpha legion was introduced at 1st. There were only 10000 space marines, and they instantly jumped to around 80000 I believe it even surprised the other legions I'm thinking omegon or alpharius are the 11th primarch
Seeing as lion el Johnson handled the rangdahn he was approached by an agent who called himself alpharius he was given a battle plan but lion didn't trust him and used his own plan instead
My guess is that big e saw those two would absolutely fall to chaos while the other traitors may have been only a guess for him. So seeing to their destruction makes sense
And yet we already have for 30 years. This whole shtick of "I like the mystery" and keeping it that way is old as fuck. Yes, we don't need explanations for everything, and some things are pretty cool keeping hidden... SOME.
that's the whole reason why gw keeps the lost primarchs as vague as possible it's gw letting the fans make up their own stuff and even homebrew their own legion
They were left empty slots in the original table top for your own home brew legions. I prefer they be revealed enough but still remain a mystery. What stinks is that, for all of Malcador's rambling about the importance of planning every detail for 30k years why didn't they forsee this? Especially with the failure of 2 Primarchs already that is eluded to have fallen to the great enemy? Something really doesn't add up, and the web way gate project was important but it wasn't that important not to correctly set up the galactic playing board.
@@TKUltra971 One thing that I've heard the books hinted at is that the Emperor and Malcador were planning for a Civil War amongst the Primarchs and even had a fairly good idea who would be on what side. It was going to be how they thunderwarrior'd them, let the Primarchs and Legions weaken each other so that those who remained would be forced to accept civilian rule or if not then much easier to wipe out. The thing they didn't anticipate was Chaos getting so involved with that Civil War.
I believe that may have been true of one, who fell to the Rangdan and may have gotten himself and his entire chapter of space marines turned into enemy assets via brain parasites, making the war much harder to win.
Crazy how The angel of destruction aka the REAL first primarch was the only "primarch" to be called son by the emperor. Autism boy has a special place in big E's heart.
@@NoConsequenc3 oh i was not sure myself but i remember believing that E outright called Angel his son and stuff to his face. But its okay anyway im not the most well versed in the lore anyhow.
The Emperor made "Spares" so at least one of them was A Psycher. The forgotten and the purged seem fairly specific. Leman Russ or Lion El Johnson killed one of them and the other likely failed and got himself killed or is "Feral" and locked in the cells below the palace.
Either that or one of them was a Pariah and the other one was (quite literally) The Father of All Black Templars. The BY one probably was purged and Pariah is kept underneath the Palace.
I like the idea that one of them was a Blank. A Primarch-level Blank was cool on paper, but in practice, he could've been a genuine threat to the health of (pre-Horussy) Magnus, Lorgar, Malcs and possibly even Big E. If he'd turned (Horus passed a Speech/Charisma check), he could've (potentially) killed Emps for good. No revive. No ascending. Just straight Deadzville. Malcador couldn't take that chance.
@@SerCommander I reckon it's possible, a Blank is an inverted Psyker, while they're anathema to the Warp their soul structures are still of the Warp, they still interact with and are part of the Warp. Now, given how much in the Warp Primarchs are, I wouldn't be surprised if it resulted in some horrific fate where the Blank Primarch was driven mad by agony of his soul rejecting his own fundamental nature.
@@SerCommander there is an in lore device that would let a human soul be cranked up to 11. It could get around the demonhost Primarch think... but it's unlikely. Another idea could be a group of human souls merged in the warp to create a Primarch soul, like the Big E was made... again, not the most likely theory from what I understand. There was a belief on Prospro that the Warp is like an ocean and everything that is known, the gods and all are just to surface. However there is a depth to it unknown to all. Eg. That well Tzeentch likes to throw followers into from time to time. Maybe there is negative soul, not like a blank where it is the absence, but a true opposite. Or maybe they have souls but they go deeper into the Warp when they die. Highly speculative, grain of salt, ect. There's also the issue that the Big E and Malcador never had a problem with the Sisters of Silence. In fact it might have actually been the reverse, the the blanks feeling uncomfortable in their presents.
You have to wonder just how much of badasses the two lost primarchs where to make Dorn say if they where there all would be lost like he stared down multiple legions at once and said “winnable” but those two made him say it would have been a straight loss
The Horesey is basically started over them. It was the first time Horus had doubts about BigE. And to me it sounded like Horus loved those brothers. Almost as much as Sanguinious.
I kinda like to imagine one of them wasn’t grimdark enough for the Emperor, landing in a system of Xenos and Humans and uniting them in a peaceful society with utopian levels of technology. It’s the one thing no other Primarchs did on a societal level and goes directly against big E’s human supremacy boner
This seems to indicate that the Primark had fallen into chaos, corruption or worse chaos possession long before Erebus was even conceived. That or they suffered a worse fate… I can’t imagine what that might be.
I just realized that the Soul Drinkers were eventually discovered to have NOT shared the same gene seed as the Imperial Fist. Even in the 'Beast' series, on record they were stated to belong to them. Yet when an Imperial Fist apothacary checked he found the truth. I knew the rumors that the lost primarchs' legions joined the Ultramarines. This is my first time hearing that they were put in the Imperial Fist as well. Now it makes sense. The Soul Drinker are descendant from one the lost primarchs. My goodness, how old are the Soul Drinkers novels? That's some long running canon that was remembered. I'm impressed.
I wonder what role the Lost Primarchs were supposed to play and if that has anything to do with them being purged? Remember, all Primarchs had a specialisation that was pretty much hardcoded into them (extreme psychic potential, peerless warriors, masterful architects, infiltration experts etc) and each specialisation was made in pairs as a contingency. However, that’s just it. They were made in pairs and no one seems to be missing their other half. That means that II and XI must’ve had the same specialisation (whatever it was). The implications of this is honestly downright terrifying…
If I remember right the 2nd legion was said to be humorless and arrogant while the 11th legion was said to be pure and innocent. Can't remember the book it's from but I'm pretty sure Fulgrim said it
I don't think anyone matches or gets close Magnus' Capabilities with warpcraft, so that seems fitting for a missing half. I'm not sure who else could be missing their counterpart though.
@doctorquantum9172 You might be on to something I have began to reread the heresy in full and at numerous points they make sure to let you know each primarch had a counterpart and a redundancy. And it could be argued whose who but Gman and Horus really don't have any that stand out.
This discussion from the book really makes it sound like they either were the most unstable or already fallen to Chaos, or at LEAST would have sided with Horus in the Heresy. I think I love this mystery most of all in 40k, especially when Dorn has his memory restored and once again completely agrees on the course taken
One of the MANY plot holes around the missing Primarchs is the way that the marine from their legions were supposidly absorbed into the Ultramarines (Explains why they were the largest Legion by far), but ALL marines can be traced to which legion that they are from by their geneseed. So what about all the marines that are not genetically Ultramarines, and don't carry Ultramarine geneseed?? You'd think that would be noticed now and then. Between the Apothocaries doing checks on geneseed stores, how every chapter has to send a portion of their geneseed to Terra, and how EVERY Legion's marines are so different to each other in their physical forms, their geneseed itself and the other organs that are interconnected with it in a marine's body. Not to mention the mental differences between Legions. Every single Ultramarine successor chapter would have to be in on the "secret" of how the chapter somehow had 3 differing sets of geneseed... And apparently, by the sounds of this, the same with all of Dorn's successor chapters too! Not much of a secret if the biggest and most prolific chapters in the Imperium all know about it... It's not like the Ultramarines and Fists are like the Dark Angels with their many secrets after all.
It wouldn't be too difficult for the Ultramarines to absorb the new marines, keep their secrets and just... Not use that gene seed. Sooner or later each marine dies an honourable ultramarine death, and quietly takes a piece of history with them
Well... idk about Fist but Ultramarine won't have problem hiding such thing. Do remember that knowing what to say or hide is part of politics and I could easily see that Gman instruct his chapter on what to do in that matter. "My sons, please ignore some of your brothers tendency to eat human, they just have carnivore diet. Our apothecary will just mark their geneseed with II and XI symbols for archives" Robocop Gigaman probably.
@@ambion19 You would still need all the Apothecaries, and probably all the Captains as well to know who was the non-Ultramarine geneseed wise. It would be something that would be common knowledge within the Chapters pretty damn quickly.
@@Primus_Phallus Aye, there are often successor chapters who are radically different from the original Legion, Black Templars and , as you say, Mortificators are just two good examples. But we are not talking about just a chapter of marines, but two entire Legions!
If I had to guess, they fought an ancient enemy (Rangdan maybe?)and they were corrupted or pulled into an enemy faction through a mind/abduction or slavery of some sort, and they had some secret that the others cannot and musn't know.
I like to think that two Lost Primarch were akin to RubixRaptor and SovietWomble, while thier Legions were Ignis Corps and ZF Clan and they were eraised due to sheer amount of bullshit shenanigans.
The fact that Big E took in Angron and Konrad and went "I can fix them" but flat out erased all memories of the other two's existence means that whatever was up with them must have been some mind bending insano style heretical shit.
Hmm. The primarchs were made with redundancy in mind, but different aspect of the same coin. Dark angels & emperor's children showed talent for strategy from the start, Iron warriors & imperial fists seigecraft, White scars & ravenguard were vanguard forces, blood angels & world eaters (@ unification of terra they were specificly chosen for brutality) shock troops, Iron hands & luna wolves were a breaking force or 'hammers' ultramarines & word bearers both had a support role (logistics & Original chaplains) and night lords and alpha legion on the public order role, alpha legion as counterintelligence and Konrad always had a strong urge for justice. Than it becomes difficult. Remarcable from the space wolves is that they were kept close and trusted for very important tasks like execution of 2nd or 11nd. Both russ's closest brothers fell i believe, but he refused. Unquestionable loyalty/ mental resilience against forces like chaos? That would pair death guard & space wolves for physical and mental resilience. Death guard were unshakable and always kept going so there is also a psychic aspect to their resilience. That leaves thousand sons, salamanders and the 2 expurged. The salamanders always shined in coöperation and directing/ leading of local militia and there is absolutely no redundancy for the thousand sons. Is it a big leap that the vulcan counterpart had a sympathy for xenos willing to sacrifice himself (rangdang xenocide maybe? Large alien force with a primarch at its head?) And maybe the magus counterpart was the other side of the spectrum: a primarch blank that was a threat to even the emperor himself. Although it would be a mighty weapon against chaos...
Thousand Sons were also remarkable as keepers and collectors of knowledge. They collected a lot of bits and bobs and I even heard one of them mentioned they were versed enough they could have removed Angron's nails without killing him (ofc just saying it proves nothing but the magnitude is there). But at the end of the day they were focused around the arcane field. Their counterpart could've been a massive tech nerd that tampered with AI and other sinister DaoT toys which would've been a total no-go
Seems to me, wiping their memory is more of an instance of them being a "cognito hazard". Likely #2 got infected first and #11 went in to save him and also got infected somehow. So to prevent anyone else falling, they just wiped them from existence.
GW has made the biggest mistake by not having a plan for the lost Primarchs. They have allowed lots of auther to preculate and put conflicting information in 'canon' (if such a word can be used for GW products now) without a plan and it's messing up the universe. They got greedy with book sales and now the 'canon' is getting messed up.
Custodes: "What about the other two Primarchs." Emperor: "We don't talk about them." Custodes: "Why not?" Emperor: "Because *WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THEM."*
We dont know, I have a theory that "the forgotten" saved the emperor by becoming the first demon primearch, and asked big E to make everyone forget him and his name, as he hopes it will end him so chaos cant use him against his father.
Lore version or actual reason? Lore version is they did something so horrifying that even knowledge.of their existence is a threat. Actual reason GW in early versions left two spots empty so players could make their own custom legions, but quickly realized it doesn't really work when you try to build extensive lore and idea was scrapped (but not really as post heresy there's a lot of space for custom chapters without breaking a lore) and these two legions are erased from existence
We don't know. All that we're aware of is that the Lost were around before the Rangdan offensives and went missing after, that their legions were absorbed into the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists, and given their tombs, they're probably dead. We've never received any indication as to whether or not Alpharius/Omegon were aware of their existence or not as far as I know, which would say a lot about *when* they disappeared, since Alpharius Omegon revealed themselves shortly after playing a fairly decisive role in the Rangdan Xenocides.
my favorite theory is that they got brainwashed by the rangdan xenos to fight against humanity. even dorn and rob can't stand the thought of a primarch being enslaved by xenos.
I’ve always liked the idea one of the primarchs was too good to follow the emperor. Perhaps they had zenos on their home worlds and they wouldnt let them be purged. But was loyal enough to spare his men and submitted himself to the emperor for mercy for his marines. Now he’s released from his cell marked XI
The war would already have been lost.... This implies they would have turned traitor or blundered so hard that they were an active detriment to the imperium.
I like to think one or maybe even both lost primarchs had the ability to make contacts with the wrap, like the emperor arrives just to see his son worship/work with wrap creatures, that would also open up the field for more warp entities other than the 4 chaos gods
Emperor sees konrad curze: maybe its just a phase puts in ear phones listening to sleeping with sirens ( he was into goth muscle mommies and boom konrad was born)!
My headcanon is that the 11th Primarch fell to Malice. Yes, mainly because 11 is the sacred number of Malice. Also because I would love to see GW do something with Malice. The idea of an omnicidal chaos god who is left who hates existence and wants to see it all end (himself and his followers too) is terrifying. Especially when you consider the motivation this could be just how absolutely horrific and miserabld in-universe the setting is. It's really not hard to imagine how a being like that could easily exist.
If they were polar opposites (one being kind and the other being pricks because gw wanted to have 2 homebrew legions for players to incarnate, 1 for each side of chaos and the imperium) we could assume that, even if it wasn't chaos related, one failed by being too kind and the other failed by being too corrupt. My favorite theories are that one died because he took the side of xenos against the genocidal imperium (the rangdan genocides against supposedly very dangerous xenos race would be a good cover-up for a primarch having created his own version of the imperium with xenos as equals) and the other was just a primarch blank which would make him both a psychopath and a direct threat to the emperor and malcador. And If the primarchs are indeed warp gods made flesh then a warp entity becoming a pariah could cause massive amounts of mutation and weird bullsh*t happening around him. To the point were either himself or him along with most of his legion had to be put down. One failed by deciding to oppose the big E and the other was purged because he was too dangerous and mutated. Both would have sided with horus when the time came. One from misguided sympathy and the other from absence of humanity.
In my headcanon, the lost primarchs were the ones not bending the knee to the emperor much like the Khan. However the lost ones also decided to resist rather than chosing the lesser of two evils. Probably why the wiped them from the books and everything. The fact that the emperor's own sons saw him for what he was, a warlord and conqueror more so than a saviour. To further expand on this, the warp is affected by the misery of the real world. If the emperor aimed for peace rather than all-out conquest, the warp wouldn't have much misery and hate to draw power from.. but this would in turn be bad for the emp since he's getting most of his juice from the warp
I take Dorn's line at the end not as meaning they were corrupted, but more that they would have been a huge liability in the events of the Heresy. Perhaps they were too free-thinking, or meddled in affairs that weren't their concern... or perhaps Horus knew things about them that would allow him to manipulate them in his favour. Not necessarily traitors, but useful pawns to him.
I've always believed that the lost primarchs inherited some of the emperor's worst human traits and that's why they had to go. Which is a terrifying thought considering we have legions like the night lords and world eaters that were considered fine.
My favorite theory regarding the lost primarchs is that they weren't chaos corrupted, but rather fell to the rangdan xenocide, with one dying, and the other being gravely injured. This would explain why there's a cell numbered 11 under the imperial palace, and if they truly did fall then it would make sense that they would have to be erased. Such knowledge about 2 primarchs falling would hurt the imperium's image of the space marines. Maybe malcador only erased them because they were planning on bringing them back somehow, or healing the 11th, but the horus heresy killed the only person who could undo the memory wipe and put the only person who remembered them on life support. This is also backed by the fact that an overwhelming majority of their legions remained loyal, something that would not happen if they fell to chaos, since space marines will almost always follow their primarchs no matter what, even if it means denouncing a chaos god they worshipped.
Oh, so two of his sons were powerful enough to have posed an actual threat to the emperor. And they had the capability of resisting him and his imperium. And they probably did, earning their [REDACTED] status. We’ve seen that when a primarch rebels/resists the emperor, the majority of their legion also follows them. This would have forced the imperial legions and the traitor legions against each other. But this war would be different than the heresy. Those two primarchs were powerful enough to resist the emperor. When they were found, they probably did, meaning that their legions would follow suit. But for (most of) the primarchs, this was their father extending his hand to an orphan, and the orphan spitting in his face. There was absolutely no risk of any of them really joining the rebellious primarchs’ side. Ergo, whatever war waged would be a brutal, short-lived campaign of 4+ legions against some of a single legion. A massacre. Astartes on astartes, primarchs on primarch. It was easier to erase the minds of those imperial participants because this little blip lost in their memory wouldn’t amount to much lost. A single campaign in a lifetime of thousands. Horus is different because he was the fountainhead for rebellion; a beloved family member was now the source of corruption, where the other two times it was estranged relations they probably just met saying they didn’t want to join the imperium.
Best case scenario was basically just Dorn remembering who the primarchs were, understanding that their personalities are similar to a traitor primarch, and made the assumption that they would have turned to Horus as well. Worse case is that they are almost as bad as Erebus. Or current Angron even if the Emperor did not interfere with their stuff.
I like to think one was a alien loving pacifist, while the other was just so batshit insane that his mere existence was a threat, I’m talking making Konrad look like a saint and Angron looking reasonable
My head cannon is the ll was too merciful, not wanting to shed anymore bloodshed after the first few wars he was in (which would 100% destroys Big E's plan)... resulting in being "forgotten" And the Xl, was pretty much aligned with the 0th (Prototype Primarch) that he was willing to go tooth and nail to release him. Which would screw Big E's plan as well... so he was "Purged" after being detained.
@@mstr____blik Well it's debatable if he was really part of the canon, or if he still is (since he's from 3rd edition of the tabletop, and named characters is only worked by the people who made them) But if he's real or not, I think XI tried to release him or he tried to do what the 0th would've done to "remove impurities" that's why he was detained momentarily then "Purged" from records and likely existence.
My cannon is that both lost primarchs successfully said NO to the emperor, neither had fallen to chaos but neither agreed nor had the want to join his empire, both strived for freedom in their own destinies of their choice, the emperor tried to force them to join and they successfully rebuked his attempts before leaving the galaxy or simply successfully going into hiding and to stop other loyal albeit doubtful primarchs of getting the same idea and splitting, the Emperor tasked Malcador with mind wiping the other primarchs and made up the claim the two were slayen
I think the forgotten was likely a pacifist, nothing could have been more damaging than a primarch refusing to join the cause under any circumstances and take up arms. It also fits with why the traitors wouldn’t hold up this primarch as some kind of symbol of defiance as they would likely look down on this as well. It would also explain why people like big G may have some lingering respect for them
As much as the lore loving side of me wants answers about the 2nd and 11th legions, i also recognize that they were intentionally left blank as room for homebrew legions. There is no lore to give us because there was never lore there to begin with. Unfortunately, this also creates an issue where GW also cant flesh out the Rangda xenocide as both of those legions were involved in that campaign, which sucks because they were a major threat to the early Imperium and required both the DA, SW, and AL to crush over the course of several xenocides.
Not just a major threat, the greatest threat until the heresy. Multiple titan legions were lost, and it still to the Emperor showing up to turn the tide.
Pretty sure the guy originally creating stories said the homebrew theory is made up by fans and was not true. It mostly just had to do with him liking the mystery behind the missing Roman legions in real life.
In the word bearers book Lorgar says to Magnus that he’s scared he’ll suffer the same fate as 2 and 11 by the hands of his brothers and Magnus tells him to STFU. Indicates that for some reason there may have already been a “redacted” heresy before the Horus heresy.
Yet when Horus insisted on knowing what happened to his other siblings - which is a pretty reasonable question - Malcador threatened to wipe Horus from existence. #GrimDerp 😂
I have a theory that one of the two is sent to the future to check if the emperor's plan worked. He never returned, so is deemed "lost". So, the next one is sent back into the past, to become the emperor himself. This was done at Molech. That's why the other primarchs presto there had their memories wiped.
Angron was Empathy. That is a very well known fact. That's like half of his entire character arc. He was supposed to be one of the medics and caretakers of the Primarchs. Instead he became...a butcher. If only his mother could see him now. I wonder how she'd justify her actions.
@@silverpact1008 @tamashii1942 Ah I apologize. I meant that the emperor isn't exactly empathetic towards his "children" and his rather none existent optimism. It was meant to be a diss.
Since the two lost Primarch's exist to give fans wiggle room for their own fanon legions, I wouldn't be much concerned with their mystery ever being revealed.
while i was watching this, i just got a theory about the Lost Primarchs: the Lost primarchs might have become test subjects (Knowingly or Not) by the ruinous powers of chaos as an experiment to see if they can corrupt a Primarch:" the Emperor's Greatest Creations", then it has a chance to defeat him. Remember: the Warp is Dependent to human emotions and spirit. and the emperor of mankind is i think, weakening its powers by conquering Human-setteld planets, which devolved into superstitions and religions, which to the warp: a tool to absorb the humanity's Dark desires and its pyschic energy, like hate, decadence, political backstabbings etc.) to fuel them thus they create a little experiment which ultimately succeeded in corrupting one but the emperor knew it and killed both primarchs then malcador at the request of him, erase anything related to those 2 primarchs and take their legions. but unkown to Anathema, they got what they wanted: they successfully corrupted a primarch and use this to Horus through Erebus of Word bearers to report it to Lorgar then Corrupt Horus leading to the Horus Heresy. this is my theory about the fate of the Lost Primarchs.
Except, you've COMPLETELY misunderstood the warp. The Chaos Gods are not actually "Ruinous Powers", and they're only twisted and corrupted because of all the negativity and bad emotions flowing into them through the universe. They don't want to stop GOOD emotions from happening, they want to be known about. Anathema isn't snuffing them out by stopping bad emotions, he's snuffing them out by erasing all knowledge of them. IF you don't believe in the chaos gods, and no one else does, they become completely benign and pathetic. Don't forget, they weren't even able to kidnap Big E's sons on purpose before the heresy. Big E's female lab partner, the donor for the other half of the primarch gene seeds, betrayed the imperium and literally GAVE the babies to the chaos gods. Not by being corrupted. Entirely of her own, poorly-thought out rebellion against his tyranny. She knew the chaos gods were so weak she could take them all on by herself at the time, so she wasn't worried about them taking her sons. Then plot happened, and her favorite baby boy became a slave with metal nails in his brain. Serves her right.
Lore wise: Traitor Primarchs, Choas Demon princes, Eldar, the warp damn Chaos gods themselves! All have had 10k years to spill the beans on the two missing Primarchs. There is literally Nothing stopping them from using that level of anti-imperial propaganda to put a wedge into the shit show that is Imperium of the Emperor. GW reasons: Shut up. Stop asking. We won’t tell you. Just guess. But you’ll still be wrong.
Well, there is no guarantee that any of those would really know too much about them. We know that at least one of the lost primarchs was purged really early on, as is so early on that only horus and Russ ever met him
What we as readers know is not necessarily even a fraction of what characters in universe know. For example Abbadon didn't know anything about the war in heaven until vashtorr told him I do wonder what Big E knew of the necrons, they didn't really become active until after the heresy and probably weren't around during the daot
Yeah, Malcador wiped their memories of the whole thing...so what's to say the memories that Dorn had in that moment were authentic? My guess is they would be integral to the Emperor's plans. Maybe even in the Terrminus Decree. Or it's possible they were sent of what's effectively black ops and the other Primarchs could not know about it.
One theory I love is that they were indeed corrupted...but not by chaos...but by the old ones and the C'tan themselves and thus proving not even the primarchs are aware of the war of the old ones and the C'tan, the 2nd possesed by the old ones and the 11th by the C'tan
I always find it funny how much play the fact that GW considered the two "missing" primarchs to be a placeholder for one loyalist and one traitor homebrew paint jobs.
I love that this implies that both of the lost primarchs were either insanely powerful or did something so unspeakable that it required such a measure by the Emperor. God damn I wanna know what happened, but I know it's a great mystery.
My personal theory is that at least one of those primarchs turned on the Emperor and fought against becoming part of Empire. The space marines under that primarch were misguided but salvagable. The other more than likely fell to xenos or was colluding with them and had to be purged.
"Why dont we remember the lost primarchs?" "I removed your memories of them. You actually asked me to do it." "Well put them back!" "Youll just ask me to remove them again, like you did the last fourty five times we had this exact conversation."
If the Emperor took a look at Angron and thought "eh, good enough" then the two lost primarchs must have already been chaos worshipping cultists to have rejected them.
In all likelihood, one got infested by the Slaught during the Rangdan Xenocides and... was put down.
@@flinchsohn2912the way dorn reacts seems to suggest it was chaos
@@Freekymohoboth legions are so players can make their own chapters, one loyal for the space marines and one traitor for the chaos side so it would be reasonable to assume one of the primarchs was killed either by the other missing primarch or that they were infected
That's not true actually....not at all. That's what the wiki and lex says and it's patently untrue. You should watch sandman and amber King for a full explained. That's an after-explanation made by GW. Originally it was so that 2 would be a constant mystery and were supposed to be ever present, but hidden antagonist to pull out when stuff got stale
@@Freekymoho Xeno can be just as bad as chaos, a 3 way war would be just as bad if not worse than a civil war and we do not know what the emperor was rushing with the crusade for still.
It wasnt their tombs. It was essentially a dormatory, with Dorn seeing the doors to the rooms prepared for the II and XI
It was something like that, if i recall it was hidden from the rest of the others, and very obviously sealed shut with psychic doohickies and defended by traps. There was very heavily implied to be something in there, particularly in the XI’s.
This was the same dorm that Corax came across during his first visit to Terra wasn't it?
It was the same thing that Corax saw. They were all supposed to be raised under the imperial palace. They all had rooms..
Dornatory
Damn. Imagine if they had never been scattered.
It's quite clearly gork and mork.
Cunning yet brutal and brutal yet cunning
Indeed
Now that's an interesting possibility
My headcannon on gork and mork is that they are two krorks that in trayzens collection, but still psychically connected to all orks and are trying to communicate and failing to be perceived as anything more than gods because of how simplistic their species has become
GORK AN MORK MENTIONED.
WAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHH
"Holy these 2 are unacceptable"
E after Angron fucking mauled a custodes:
"Looks fine, give him the 12th"
Looking at what the Emperor punishes it's likely at least one was a pacifist. If he failed peacefully to convince a planet to join he would just leave them be, and he most likely didn't murder Xenos on sight but provokation.
The writers aren't exactly intelligent.
Lol
@@AustinSamson-mg9ks imagine if they were xenoPHILES
@@vitaliitomas8121 What I'm hearing is one of them had the fabled goth Eldar gf before Guilliman.
"If they were with us now, this war would have already been lost." A powerful sentence for Dorn himself to speak. So even Dorn knew that if those two lived after everything that happened, they would join Horus and everything would be lost.
Maybe not, could just be that there would have been too many extremely strong enemies. Regardless of their alliance or otherwise. An equal goal doesn't equal aligning views. i.e. These "lost" Primarchs could have attacked during the weakening of the imperium robbing chaos of their win completely. Maybe one would have easily had access to Humanity's golden era tech with a view on Xeno or even AI as more than positive. Xenophile and AI users completely antithetical to either Chaos or The Imperium.
My new head canon is the the two primarch were really clumsy idiots, and their stupidity played for the enemy.
Cue to the lost primarch triping and their weapons firing at their allies.
@@ivanelgharbi5861 Mine is that they didn't want to bend the knee to big E and the empire.
@@ivanelgharbi5861, I'm leaning towards one being the Primarch of the Carcaradons, and the other being Vashtorr The Archifane.
Would they even do anything, they are legionless spacemarines plus.What they can even do
Then the emperor saw Konrad Curze and said "i'll keep this one"
"I can conquer a star system with a box cutter and a webcam."
"You're hired."
Curze and Angron were useful, mostly did what they were told (nevermind the excesses), and didn't rock the boat much. They would not have been able to gather a following had they rebelled, and it would not have been that shocking had they turned insane.
Yeah. Imagine how bad the other two must have been
@@grahamlopez3742given that the Emperor only punished Lorgar for being a slow conqueror it could be one was just a nice guy that didn't want to kill. He would come to a planet try to convince them to join then leave if he couldn't the Emperor is pissed at him sucking more then Lorgar and purges him after finding out he wasn't even killing Xenos.
Makes you think, If konrad was good in BigEs eyes then what did the lost 2 do? Worshiping a chaos God? Loving on xenos? Openly defining BigE? System wide genocide? Maybe they were to nice?
Remember in the prision under Terra's palace, there is one cell called "Subject XI" as 11 in Roman numbers.
No, this is just an ancient dictator from Terra from M3.
that'd be XXI to be eleven btw. - Nevermind, my brain is dumb XD that's 21. XI is indeed eleven.
I’m pretty sure Subject XI was mentioned to be some ancient Terran, which means the subject would’ve been around before the primarchs
Subject XI is an ancient Terran. He’s not a primarch
CCP Containment
the horror, the Funkopops
Pls father, tell me all about your funkopop collection!
😭😭
Noooooo
It would really cool if God was a funko pop
The two emotions that are missing are lust(fulgrim doesn't count he was perfection) and greed(idk if there are greedy primarch)
So if i had a gooning son and a trash hoarder son i wouldn't want the world to see it too
One of the lost primarchs was a Space Marine Skaven and you can't convince me otherwise.
Yeah and after being killed by Russ his soul went to Warp, harnessed power beyond imagination and ascended to Godhood and now is known as Great Horned Rat
The End
Great Horned Primarch🐀
the grey seer passes you the boof, do-do you accept-receive?
Both were Skaven and one rode atop the others shoulders and they wore a long coat to convince the others they were a normal primarch.
@@skarlock5257 just like Alpharius and Omegon
They are often referred to as "the forgotten and the purged" meaning on top of Malcador saying that the second and eleventh legions did not share their primarchs fate, means that one likely died in a conflict, probably the Rangdan xenocide, while the other was purged for reasons we don't know.
But sanginus fears that his sons will be purged like the lost primarch's legion and speaks to horus about it. I dont think both legions were disolved one of them had huge genetic defect and had to go.
@@ihya_oldum7265 or that is the official version, since not even primarchs are privy to the truth.
@@84elmer yeah never thought that maybe that story is just made up
There is a theory that the 2nd and 11th's legions were actually absorbed into the Ultra Marines and the Imperial Fists through different, new founding Astartes chapters. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but it explains some of the weirder chapters Dorn and Guilliman have under their wing.
@@Kirbyftw402 it's a good theory but it has one problem, chapters were created in the aftermath of the Heresy, but the II and IX disappeared during the greate crusade, so it's still at least couple of years of the merged existance.
The real lost primarchs were the friends we made along the way
Since this is 40k, I guess that explains why they're called the lost and purged.
So sweet ❤
😂😂😂
Hey, it worked for Cadia's secret, lost superweapon...
Very original.
Plot twist. Alpharius and Omegon aren’t Twins, they are what’s left of the Quadruplets.
Roboute Guilliman, finally resting for the first time in centuries.
A thought crosses his mind. "Alpharius and Omegon were twins, but Hydras have more than two heads.... Fuck, what if Alpharius and Omegon weren't twins?"
He stands up and opts to practice his swordsmanship. "Father damn it all. I'm awake for the next century at the very least because of this."
This is the most Alpha Legion way for it to happen
Deltarius and Sigmar--
...... Oh Emperor...
@@E.F5980Betarius and Sigmar
@@E.F5980 SIGMAR BALLS
The idea that Dorn immediately thinks they would’ve doomed the imperium by still being around the instant he’s able to remember them says a lot.
There was a pretty convincing theory about at least one of them either being or being linked to Malal /Malice, the fifth chaos god.
Jesus how bad must they have been if he came and took a look at Curze and went “yeah he’s alright”
One of them fell on a planet with xenos - he regarded them as his people. But when the imperium found him, it all changed. For a time the xenos was left alone. But when the primarch was sent to a distant area of the galaxy he received astropathic communications that his planet had been attacked. When he returned, two fleets orbited the scattered remains of the once beautiful and lush planet. He voxed the lead vessel, and rogal dorn answered the call. "Lower the void shields, You are to be apprehended, and sent back to Terra" the preatorian said. Disbelief drowned the 2nd primarch. "Do as he said" a voice behind him uttered. The 2nd turned around, his first captain aiming the bolter to his head. Simultaneously, deafening bolter rounds was shot at the Xenos crew. One single word echoed in the primarchs mind "BETRAYAL"
It’s revealed that the Captain was actually Alpharius in disguise.
that's my personal head canon for one of the lost primarchs too,,,
that it wasn't that he fell to chaos,but that he did not share the same views about xenos,psykers,etc and refused to go along with the policy that the emperor and his brothers had,,,and it eventually came to a breaking point.
That he could have been a truly noble and great primarch,not fallen like the other lost primarch and because of that,might not have been actually destroyed,but put in a stasis of a kind,,,
there is that one cell on terra marked "XI"
after all,,,
@@omegamark9178 The Imperium's hostility to aliens is well justified. This is not Star Trek.
I do enjoy the Xenos theory. Maybe not the Rogal or Alpharius addition but they make sense at least.
This could be a canon event with this set up and it would hit hard as well imo.
The best books in the heresy series are the ones where either peaceful human civs like the interex or human xeno hybrids were unnecessarily whiped out. Feels like an Angron plot with more depth.
For the 12 Primarch however I have no idea what to do. Maybe make him similiar to the semi-independent perpetuals in that he is more autonomous in thought as well as relation to the Emperor.
@@Thalanox Eh,and how much of that is the imperium and the emperor's own fault?
iirc,there WERE xenos races that could have been worked with but they were gotten rid of,,,so all they got left is to have fun with the orkz,tyranids,drukhari,etc lol
That they committed acts that gave the Emperor who views almost all beings as tools enough cause to erase them from memories and ALL records speaks volumes.
I bet they had biological kids, and big e can't let a race of primarchs be
They didn’t have to commit “acts”. All they had to do was believe in completely different values than the Imperium.
The purged could have been a fanatical xenophile who refused to join the xenocidal Imperium at all costs. That’s the sort of ideological difference you can’t change.
The other one? A pacifist who refused to unite humanity forcibly.
Both of these are complete anathema to the ideals of Great Crusade and thus would warrant a hard censure.
@@apollodiomedes203or diplomats that could sway planets and people away from chaos and the imperium.
@@apollodiomedes203Actually one of them were part of Rangdan Xenocides. I forgot which one.
@@artturisiikanen3843 Unlikely considering that the role of diplomat was already fullfilled by Horus. Many people forget what Horus was before Chaos. He wasnt the best fighter or the greatest strategist. He was just extremely charming and diplomatic. Many of his victories were won through diplomacy since most people would simply want to join his side after a conversation with him. This is why he could get so many of his brothers to join him.
It was point blank mentioned during a conversation between Malcador and Russ if I recall rightly (during the HH, when Russ planned to atack Horus fleet directly and to execute Horus himself) that "this is not the first time he (Russ) was sent to end a primarch". It was thus hinted that he was the one who killed at least one of the forgotten primarchs and also the reason why he is called "The Emperors Executioner".
Was he not referring to Magnus the whiny and the razing of Prospero?
@@sgtgiggles7296 Russ was not sent to kill Magnus, but to capture him.
@@MrSamulai Adding to this; that belief is actually from Horus' lies to Russ infecting the fanbase
From what little we know they were probably pretty powerful.
However, something done by them (seemingly specifically by their own actions) was extremely dangerous. But with no clues about any of their impact it’s impossible to know what happened.
I think they will come back at some point. But by then they won’t be the same beings as they were in the beginning.
The unfortunate truth of the situation is that the "lost legions" were there to allow creative 30k/HH players to homebrew their own Legions, so GW will likely never create official lore for them. Does this infuriate me as a lover of lore? Yes. Does this also make sense from a creative standpoint? Also yes.
@@firehazardentertainment8381 no. You're spreading lies. According to Rick Priestley, the Lost Primarchs were created to provide a deep background for the Horus Heresy. Priestley, who originally wrote the background for the Horus Heresy, created the Lost Primarchs and the Lost Legions to add "unknowable ten thousand year old mysteries" to the story.
One of the two, it is never confirmed as to which, almost certainly was killed during the Rangdan Xenocides. The Lion was in ultimate command, with the vast bulk of the 1st with him (~250k Astartes at this point, making him the largest Legion), at least one Great Company of the Space Wolves, elements of the Imperial Fists, and either the bulk/entirety of either the Second or Eleventh Legion, as well as multiple Titan Legions and Imperial Army/Solar Auxilia.
The Rangdan were hosts to the Slaught, who are still a problem in current 40k as a minor xenos (though, they have very thoroughly infiltrated the Calixis Sector), but the Rangdan were their real power, with creatures large enough to win engagements with titans. Something went wrong, the details are sparse, but we are talking horribly wrong where Lion had to appeal to the Emperor to aid them because even with the forces at his disposal, shit was unlikely to go in their favor. Emps had to get something out of the Labyrinth of Old Night to turn the battle. What exactly happened to the Lost Primarch there isn't stated, but he was mentioned as having been part of the forces at the start, but not mentioned as having survived. Given that the Dark Angels lost over 20% of their Legion in this war, the likely outcome was the 2nd/11th Legion was either utterly crushed, tactically screwed, or also quite likely compromised. Rangdan had creatures called Cerbevores, which would eat the brains of their targets, while still also being hosts to another creature. Should the legion have been compromised in such a manner, it would explain more as to why the Rangdan Xenocides are one of the best kept secrets in regards to what actually happened in the Imperium, as nearly all information as to what happened was struck from record.
Until the Horus Heresy, the Rangdan Xenocides are credited with being the greatest threat to the Imperium of Man, requiring the direct intervention of the Emperor to avert the destruction of 2 legions, one of which being the largest and best equipped.
@@flinchsohn2912Well. I will say one thing. Maybe the 11th. bit the 2nd was last seen with Necrons. Check out the Fsbius Bile books. Contains a tonne of information on the 2nd Primarch
With Dorn saying the war would be lost if they existed to me that points to at least one of them being a Chaos worshipper and therefore would have joined Horus
May they forever be a mystery.
NOOOOOO I WANNA KNOOOOOWWW
Hear, hear!
@@SpineBreakerZno answer they could give you could possibly live up to your wildest imagination
@@SpineBreakerZits best to come up with what YOU think happened to them
@@SpineBreakerZ The mystery is greater than the revelation
The Lost Primarchs were insane and unstable. They were possessed of equal and opposing warp forces in too great of strength. They could not survive these internal stresses and rapidly mutated.
Imma sayyyyy, probably not. There's no doubt in my mind that the lost primarchs were executed, Leman Russ was implied to have slain them iirc.
@@emzetkin1100 Yeah, at least one of them, iirc Guilliman mentions that one "was lost to us" and the other one "failed" or something like that, so it's likely one of them had a geneseed flaw that was too great (based on Sanguinius being afraid of being sheesh kebabed if the Red Thirst became known) and the other one I would imagine died off during the Rangdan Xenocides in some way, possibly joining them or something like that, it's likely that the Lost was killed by Leman due to his Flaw and the Forgotten was killed either by the Rangdan (assuming he didn't join them), the Lion (as his legion was the one that took the most loses during that time, so we can assume he was the one to fight the Rangdan primarly) or again Leman
That's my theory at least
Only the emperor knew of alpharius and omegon when the alpha legion was introduced at 1st. There were only 10000 space marines, and they instantly jumped to around 80000 I believe it even surprised the other legions I'm thinking omegon or alpharius are the 11th primarch
Seeing as lion el Johnson handled the rangdahn he was approached by an agent who called himself alpharius he was given a battle plan but lion didn't trust him and used his own plan instead
My guess is that big e saw those two would absolutely fall to chaos while the other traitors may have been only a guess for him. So seeing to their destruction makes sense
I never want an actual official lore explanation. I want a thousand hints so fans can concoct their own batshit crazy theories.
And yet we already have for 30 years. This whole shtick of "I like the mystery" and keeping it that way is old as fuck. Yes, we don't need explanations for everything, and some things are pretty cool keeping hidden... SOME.
that's the whole reason why gw keeps the lost primarchs as vague as possible
it's gw letting the fans make up their own stuff and even homebrew their own legion
They were left empty slots in the original table top for your own home brew legions. I prefer they be revealed enough but still remain a mystery. What stinks is that, for all of Malcador's rambling about the importance of planning every detail for 30k years why didn't they forsee this? Especially with the failure of 2 Primarchs already that is eluded to have fallen to the great enemy? Something really doesn't add up, and the web way gate project was important but it wasn't that important not to correctly set up the galactic playing board.
@@TKUltra971 One thing that I've heard the books hinted at is that the Emperor and Malcador were planning for a Civil War amongst the Primarchs and even had a fairly good idea who would be on what side. It was going to be how they thunderwarrior'd them, let the Primarchs and Legions weaken each other so that those who remained would be forced to accept civilian rule or if not then much easier to wipe out.
The thing they didn't anticipate was Chaos getting so involved with that Civil War.
@@zacharyash2050This would be one of those things that would be better to remain a mystery
The truth was ... to mid to bear, he remembered how bad there were, just more useless then Mortarion... the horror
They had the power of an unnamed but definitely very powerful character in another factions army book
I believe that may have been true of one, who fell to the Rangdan and may have gotten himself and his entire chapter of space marines turned into enemy assets via brain parasites, making the war much harder to win.
Oh, if only Dorn knew about THE Angel...
Lol
Crazy how The angel of destruction aka the REAL first primarch was the only "primarch" to be called son by the emperor.
Autism boy has a special place in big E's heart.
@@darkside2589 E calls every single one of the primarchs his sons. You're just wrong.
@@NoConsequenc3 oh i was not sure myself but i remember believing that E outright called Angel his son and stuff to his face.
But its okay anyway im not the most well versed in the lore anyhow.
@@NoConsequenc3 I mean, the emperor kept him alive even after he went bat shit crazy, so he kinda liked him
The Emperor made "Spares" so at least one of them was A Psycher. The forgotten and the purged seem fairly specific. Leman Russ or Lion El Johnson killed one of them and the other likely failed and got himself killed or is "Feral" and locked in the cells below the palace.
Either that or one of them was a Pariah and the other one was (quite literally) The Father of All Black Templars. The BY one probably was purged and Pariah is kept underneath the Palace.
So, that's why the Soul Drinkers Chapter doesn't have Imperial Fists geneseed despite being an Imperial Fists Successor-Chapter.
That makes a lot of sense!
I like the idea that one of them was a Blank. A Primarch-level Blank was cool on paper, but in practice, he could've been a genuine threat to the health of (pre-Horussy) Magnus, Lorgar, Malcs and possibly even Big E.
If he'd turned (Horus passed a Speech/Charisma check), he could've (potentially) killed Emps for good.
No revive. No ascending. Just straight Deadzville. Malcador couldn't take that chance.
A blank. Huh…by far the best put forth theory so far I think.
Explains Titus' ability to reject the warp and fuck shit up. He's got blank blood in him.
Doubtfull. Primarchs are basically daemonhosts - part human/part warp entity with dominant human control.
@@SerCommander I reckon it's possible, a Blank is an inverted Psyker, while they're anathema to the Warp their soul structures are still of the Warp, they still interact with and are part of the Warp.
Now, given how much in the Warp Primarchs are, I wouldn't be surprised if it resulted in some horrific fate where the Blank Primarch was driven mad by agony of his soul rejecting his own fundamental nature.
@@SerCommander there is an in lore device that would let a human soul be cranked up to 11. It could get around the demonhost Primarch think... but it's unlikely. Another idea could be a group of human souls merged in the warp to create a Primarch soul, like the Big E was made... again, not the most likely theory from what I understand.
There was a belief on Prospro that the Warp is like an ocean and everything that is known, the gods and all are just to surface. However there is a depth to it unknown to all. Eg. That well Tzeentch likes to throw followers into from time to time. Maybe there is negative soul, not like a blank where it is the absence, but a true opposite. Or maybe they have souls but they go deeper into the Warp when they die. Highly speculative, grain of salt, ect.
There's also the issue that the Big E and Malcador never had a problem with the Sisters of Silence. In fact it might have actually been the reverse, the the blanks feeling uncomfortable in their presents.
You have to wonder just how much of badasses the two lost primarchs where to make Dorn say if they where there all would be lost like he stared down multiple legions at once and said “winnable” but those two made him say it would have been a straight loss
The Horesey is basically started over them. It was the first time Horus had doubts about BigE. And to me it sounded like Horus loved those brothers. Almost as much as Sanguinious.
I kinda like to imagine one of them wasn’t grimdark enough for the Emperor, landing in a system of Xenos and Humans and uniting them in a peaceful society with utopian levels of technology. It’s the one thing no other Primarchs did on a societal level and goes directly against big E’s human supremacy boner
This seems to indicate that the Primark had fallen into chaos, corruption or worse chaos possession long before Erebus was even conceived.
That or they suffered a worse fate… I can’t imagine what that might be.
something regarding C'Than, Old Ones, Rangdans, maybe Halo Stars
Or not. Probably saw visions of the horrible future and warped himself to Andromeda or Circinus to escape the Imperium ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Head cannon: The Mortifactors are descended from one of the lost Primarchs, but were absorbed by the Ultramarines.
I just realized that the Soul Drinkers were eventually discovered to have NOT shared the same gene seed as the Imperial Fist. Even in the 'Beast' series, on record they were stated to belong to them. Yet when an Imperial Fist apothacary checked he found the truth. I knew the rumors that the lost primarchs' legions joined the Ultramarines. This is my first time hearing that they were put in the Imperial Fist as well. Now it makes sense. The Soul Drinker are descendant from one the lost primarchs. My goodness, how old are the Soul Drinkers novels? That's some long running canon that was remembered. I'm impressed.
I wonder what role the Lost Primarchs were supposed to play and if that has anything to do with them being purged?
Remember, all Primarchs had a specialisation that was pretty much hardcoded into them (extreme psychic potential, peerless warriors, masterful architects, infiltration experts etc) and each specialisation was made in pairs as a contingency. However, that’s just it. They were made in pairs and no one seems to be missing their other half. That means that II and XI must’ve had the same specialisation (whatever it was). The implications of this is honestly downright terrifying…
If I remember right the 2nd legion was said to be humorless and arrogant while the 11th legion was said to be pure and innocent. Can't remember the book it's from but I'm pretty sure Fulgrim said it
Maybe one of them was a pair with Vulkan?
I don't think anyone matches or gets close Magnus' Capabilities with warpcraft, so that seems fitting for a missing half. I'm not sure who else could be missing their counterpart though.
OMG Bobby G is such an overlooked ignored primarch. Who is his equal among the 18? No one. 2nd and 11 could possible be Guilliman's pair and Horus's
@doctorquantum9172 You might be on to something I have began to reread the heresy in full and at numerous points they make sure to let you know each primarch had a counterpart and a redundancy. And it could be argued whose who but Gman and Horus really don't have any that stand out.
*Screams from beneath the palace*
Gw should have made at least one of them just missing I mean it would have made a great piece of lore too suddenly have a new aged primarch found
This discussion from the book really makes it sound like they either were the most unstable or already fallen to Chaos, or at LEAST would have sided with Horus in the Heresy. I think I love this mystery most of all in 40k, especially when Dorn has his memory restored and once again completely agrees on the course taken
or a third side which woukd annihilate the empire and chaos.
Plot twist, they did nothing wrong. One was an Omega Plus Blank whose powers killed anyone that got too close. The other was a ginger.
One of the MANY plot holes around the missing Primarchs is the way that the marine from their legions were supposidly absorbed into the Ultramarines (Explains why they were the largest Legion by far), but ALL marines can be traced to which legion that they are from by their geneseed.
So what about all the marines that are not genetically Ultramarines, and don't carry Ultramarine geneseed??
You'd think that would be noticed now and then.
Between the Apothocaries doing checks on geneseed stores, how every chapter has to send a portion of their geneseed to Terra, and how EVERY Legion's marines are so different to each other in their physical forms, their geneseed itself and the other organs that are interconnected with it in a marine's body.
Not to mention the mental differences between Legions.
Every single Ultramarine successor chapter would have to be in on the "secret" of how the chapter somehow had 3 differing sets of geneseed...
And apparently, by the sounds of this, the same with all of Dorn's successor chapters too!
Not much of a secret if the biggest and most prolific chapters in the Imperium all know about it...
It's not like the Ultramarines and Fists are like the Dark Angels with their many secrets after all.
Ever heard of the Mortifcators bud? They arent exactly Ultramarine-material yet apparently their from Gman's stock.
It wouldn't be too difficult for the Ultramarines to absorb the new marines, keep their secrets and just... Not use that gene seed. Sooner or later each marine dies an honourable ultramarine death, and quietly takes a piece of history with them
Well... idk about Fist but Ultramarine won't have problem hiding such thing. Do remember that knowing what to say or hide is part of politics and I could easily see that Gman instruct his chapter on what to do in that matter.
"My sons, please ignore some of your brothers tendency to eat human, they just have carnivore diet. Our apothecary will just mark their geneseed with II and XI symbols for archives"
Robocop Gigaman probably.
@@ambion19 You would still need all the Apothecaries, and probably all the Captains as well to know who was the non-Ultramarine geneseed wise.
It would be something that would be common knowledge within the Chapters pretty damn quickly.
@@Primus_Phallus Aye, there are often successor chapters who are radically different from the original Legion, Black Templars and , as you say, Mortificators are just two good examples.
But we are not talking about just a chapter of marines, but two entire Legions!
If I had to guess, they fought an ancient enemy (Rangdan maybe?)and they were corrupted or pulled into an enemy faction through a mind/abduction or slavery of some sort, and they had some secret that the others cannot and musn't know.
I like to think that two Lost Primarch were akin to RubixRaptor and SovietWomble, while thier Legions were Ignis Corps and ZF Clan and they were eraised due to sheer amount of bullshit shenanigans.
jesus, they would be a force of nature like the Orks
If not for the cadian xxth who knows what horrors they would perform
We are the badgers!
@@nyet_maker7948 THE SPACE BADGERS!
The fact that Big E took in Angron and Konrad and went "I can fix them" but flat out erased all memories of the other two's existence means that whatever was up with them must have been some mind bending insano style heretical shit.
The lost Primarchs probably never paid their TV licence.
That was big red flag when the big E had their memory delete
Or at least that is what Malcador told him.@@nickf.6027
Hmm. The primarchs were made with redundancy in mind, but different aspect of the same coin. Dark angels & emperor's children showed talent for strategy from the start, Iron warriors & imperial fists seigecraft, White scars & ravenguard were vanguard forces, blood angels & world eaters (@ unification of terra they were specificly chosen for brutality) shock troops, Iron hands & luna wolves were a breaking force or 'hammers' ultramarines & word bearers both had a support role (logistics & Original chaplains) and night lords and alpha legion on the public order role, alpha legion as counterintelligence and Konrad always had a strong urge for justice. Than it becomes difficult. Remarcable from the space wolves is that they were kept close and trusted for very important tasks like execution of 2nd or 11nd. Both russ's closest brothers fell i believe, but he refused. Unquestionable loyalty/ mental resilience against forces like chaos? That would pair death guard & space wolves for physical and mental resilience. Death guard were unshakable and always kept going so there is also a psychic aspect to their resilience. That leaves thousand sons, salamanders and the 2 expurged. The salamanders always shined in coöperation and directing/ leading of local militia and there is absolutely no redundancy for the thousand sons. Is it a big leap that the vulcan counterpart had a sympathy for xenos willing to sacrifice himself (rangdang xenocide maybe? Large alien force with a primarch at its head?) And maybe the magus counterpart was the other side of the spectrum: a primarch blank that was a threat to even the emperor himself. Although it would be a mighty weapon against chaos...
Pretty cool theory!
Thousand Sons were also remarkable as keepers and collectors of knowledge. They collected a lot of bits and bobs and I even heard one of them mentioned they were versed enough they could have removed Angron's nails without killing him (ofc just saying it proves nothing but the magnitude is there). But at the end of the day they were focused around the arcane field. Their counterpart could've been a massive tech nerd that tampered with AI and other sinister DaoT toys which would've been a total no-go
Seems to me, wiping their memory is more of an instance of them being a "cognito hazard". Likely #2 got infected first and #11 went in to save him and also got infected somehow. So to prevent anyone else falling, they just wiped them from existence.
The edging we have to suffer with 40k lore is unjust.
GW has made the biggest mistake by not having a plan for the lost Primarchs. They have allowed lots of auther to preculate and put conflicting information in 'canon' (if such a word can be used for GW products now) without a plan and it's messing up the universe. They got greedy with book sales and now the 'canon' is getting messed up.
Everything is canon, not everything is true
Bearing in mind this is Malcador, he can and will lie if he thinks it is for the best, or more efficient and Dorn would never know.
I doubt he will lie to Dorn, as Dorn is his most trusted primarch.
Ah yes what a great reveal totally worth waiting 20 years for
Custodes: "What about the other two Primarchs."
Emperor: "We don't talk about them."
Custodes: "Why not?"
Emperor: "Because *WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THEM."*
What the hell did these guys do?!
We dont know, I have a theory that "the forgotten" saved the emperor by becoming the first demon primearch, and asked big E to make everyone forget him and his name, as he hopes it will end him so chaos cant use him against his father.
Lore version or actual reason?
Lore version is they did something so horrifying that even knowledge.of their existence is a threat.
Actual reason GW in early versions left two spots empty so players could make their own custom legions, but quickly realized it doesn't really work when you try to build extensive lore and idea was scrapped (but not really as post heresy there's a lot of space for custom chapters without breaking a lore) and these two legions are erased from existence
We don't know. All that we're aware of is that the Lost were around before the Rangdan offensives and went missing after, that their legions were absorbed into the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists, and given their tombs, they're probably dead.
We've never received any indication as to whether or not Alpharius/Omegon were aware of their existence or not as far as I know, which would say a lot about *when* they disappeared, since Alpharius Omegon revealed themselves shortly after playing a fairly decisive role in the Rangdan Xenocides.
my favorite theory is that they got brainwashed by the rangdan xenos to fight against humanity. even dorn and rob can't stand the thought of a primarch being enslaved by xenos.
Marketing.
I’ve always liked the idea one of the primarchs was too good to follow the emperor. Perhaps they had zenos on their home worlds and they wouldnt let them be purged. But was loyal enough to spare his men and submitted himself to the emperor for mercy for his marines. Now he’s released from his cell marked XI
Nah he wokld be too great, he probably more actually insane
The war would already have been lost....
This implies they would have turned traitor or blundered so hard that they were an active detriment to the imperium.
I like to think one or maybe even both lost primarchs had the ability to make contacts with the wrap, like the emperor arrives just to see his son worship/work with wrap creatures, that would also open up the field for more warp entities other than the 4 chaos gods
Emperor sees konrad curze: maybe its just a phase puts in ear phones listening to sleeping with sirens ( he was into goth muscle mommies and boom konrad was born)!
My headcanon is that the 11th Primarch fell to Malice. Yes, mainly because 11 is the sacred number of Malice.
Also because I would love to see GW do something with Malice.
The idea of an omnicidal chaos god who is left who hates existence and wants to see it all end (himself and his followers too) is terrifying. Especially when you consider the motivation this could be just how absolutely horrific and miserabld in-universe the setting is.
It's really not hard to imagine how a being like that could easily exist.
The sad thing is we all expect this secret to be mind blowing, so GW is never going to reveal the Primarchs. We will all die not knowing.
If they were polar opposites (one being kind and the other being pricks because gw wanted to have 2 homebrew legions for players to incarnate, 1 for each side of chaos and the imperium) we could assume that, even if it wasn't chaos related, one failed by being too kind and the other failed by being too corrupt.
My favorite theories are that one died because he took the side of xenos against the genocidal imperium (the rangdan genocides against supposedly very dangerous xenos race would be a good cover-up for a primarch having created his own version of the imperium with xenos as equals) and the other was just a primarch blank which would make him both a psychopath and a direct threat to the emperor and malcador. And If the primarchs are indeed warp gods made flesh then a warp entity becoming a pariah could cause massive amounts of mutation and weird bullsh*t happening around him. To the point were either himself or him along with most of his legion had to be put down.
One failed by deciding to oppose the big E and the other was purged because he was too dangerous and mutated. Both would have sided with horus when the time came. One from misguided sympathy and the other from absence of humanity.
In my headcanon, the lost primarchs were the ones not bending the knee to the emperor much like the Khan. However the lost ones also decided to resist rather than chosing the lesser of two evils.
Probably why the wiped them from the books and everything. The fact that the emperor's own sons saw him for what he was, a warlord and conqueror more so than a saviour.
To further expand on this, the warp is affected by the misery of the real world. If the emperor aimed for peace rather than all-out conquest, the warp wouldn't have much misery and hate to draw power from.. but this would in turn be bad for the emp since he's getting most of his juice from the warp
I never want the writers to explicitly explain what they are but they better come back and they better be Gork and Mork
I take Dorn's line at the end not as meaning they were corrupted, but more that they would have been a huge liability in the events of the Heresy. Perhaps they were too free-thinking, or meddled in affairs that weren't their concern... or perhaps Horus knew things about them that would allow him to manipulate them in his favour. Not necessarily traitors, but useful pawns to him.
Wait for the retcon to welcome big momma primis with huge milker!
Joke aside nice short you got there!
I've always believed that the lost primarchs inherited some of the emperor's worst human traits and that's why they had to go. Which is a terrifying thought considering we have legions like the night lords and world eaters that were considered fine.
My favorite theory regarding the lost primarchs is that they weren't chaos corrupted, but rather fell to the rangdan xenocide, with one dying, and the other being gravely injured. This would explain why there's a cell numbered 11 under the imperial palace, and if they truly did fall then it would make sense that they would have to be erased. Such knowledge about 2 primarchs falling would hurt the imperium's image of the space marines. Maybe malcador only erased them because they were planning on bringing them back somehow, or healing the 11th, but the horus heresy killed the only person who could undo the memory wipe and put the only person who remembered them on life support. This is also backed by the fact that an overwhelming majority of their legions remained loyal, something that would not happen if they fell to chaos, since space marines will almost always follow their primarchs no matter what, even if it means denouncing a chaos god they worshipped.
Iin my 40k RPG that you don't care about, they traveled out the galaxy and returned with a secret too terrible to allowed to exist.
Oh, so two of his sons were powerful enough to have posed an actual threat to the emperor. And they had the capability of resisting him and his imperium. And they probably did, earning their [REDACTED] status.
We’ve seen that when a primarch rebels/resists the emperor, the majority of their legion also follows them. This would have forced the imperial legions and the traitor legions against each other. But this war would be different than the heresy.
Those two primarchs were powerful enough to resist the emperor. When they were found, they probably did, meaning that their legions would follow suit.
But for (most of) the primarchs, this was their father extending his hand to an orphan, and the orphan spitting in his face. There was absolutely no risk of any of them really joining the rebellious primarchs’ side. Ergo, whatever war waged would be a brutal, short-lived campaign of 4+ legions against some of a single legion. A massacre. Astartes on astartes, primarchs on primarch.
It was easier to erase the minds of those imperial participants because this little blip lost in their memory wouldn’t amount to much lost. A single campaign in a lifetime of thousands.
Horus is different because he was the fountainhead for rebellion; a beloved family member was now the source of corruption, where the other two times it was estranged relations they probably just met saying they didn’t want to join the imperium.
Best case scenario was basically just Dorn remembering who the primarchs were, understanding that their personalities are similar to a traitor primarch, and made the assumption that they would have turned to Horus as well.
Worse case is that they are almost as bad as Erebus. Or current Angron even if the Emperor did not interfere with their stuff.
Ohhhhhh shhhiiiiieeeeeet that actually paints the picture pretty well gah damn
I like to think one was a alien loving pacifist, while the other was just so batshit insane that his mere existence was a threat, I’m talking making Konrad look like a saint and Angron looking reasonable
One could simulate the pariah gene effect and the other could forcefully remove the concept of himself from the galaxy.
My head cannon is the ll was too merciful, not wanting to shed anymore bloodshed after the first few wars he was in (which would 100% destroys Big E's plan)... resulting in being "forgotten"
And the Xl, was pretty much aligned with the 0th (Prototype Primarch) that he was willing to go tooth and nail to release him. Which would screw Big E's plan as well... so he was "Purged" after being detained.
aaahh..."(Prototype Primarch)". the primarch that almost no one had heard of. i only see his data on wikis.
@@mstr____blik Well it's debatable if he was really part of the canon, or if he still is (since he's from 3rd edition of the tabletop, and named characters is only worked by the people who made them)
But if he's real or not, I think XI tried to release him or he tried to do what the 0th would've done to "remove impurities" that's why he was detained momentarily then "Purged" from records and likely existence.
My cannon is that both lost primarchs successfully said NO to the emperor, neither had fallen to chaos but neither agreed nor had the want to join his empire, both strived for freedom in their own destinies of their choice, the emperor tried to force them to join and they successfully rebuked his attempts before leaving the galaxy or simply successfully going into hiding and to stop other loyal albeit doubtful primarchs of getting the same idea and splitting, the Emperor tasked Malcador with mind wiping the other primarchs and made up the claim the two were slayen
I think the forgotten was likely a pacifist, nothing could have been more damaging than a primarch refusing to join the cause under any circumstances and take up arms. It also fits with why the traitors wouldn’t hold up this primarch as some kind of symbol of defiance as they would likely look down on this as well. It would also explain why people like big G may have some lingering respect for them
*Malal cackling holding both Primarchs under his sway*
As much as the lore loving side of me wants answers about the 2nd and 11th legions, i also recognize that they were intentionally left blank as room for homebrew legions. There is no lore to give us because there was never lore there to begin with. Unfortunately, this also creates an issue where GW also cant flesh out the Rangda xenocide as both of those legions were involved in that campaign, which sucks because they were a major threat to the early Imperium and required both the DA, SW, and AL to crush over the course of several xenocides.
Not just a major threat, the greatest threat until the heresy. Multiple titan legions were lost, and it still to the Emperor showing up to turn the tide.
Pretty sure the guy originally creating stories said the homebrew theory is made up by fans and was not true. It mostly just had to do with him liking the mystery behind the missing Roman legions in real life.
Malcador was way too stronk to not be reborn. I don't think it is a question of if he will come back but when.
The Lost Primarchs is probably the Imperium's most well kept secret
In the word bearers book Lorgar says to Magnus that he’s scared he’ll suffer the same fate as 2 and 11 by the hands of his brothers and Magnus tells him to STFU. Indicates that for some reason there may have already been a “redacted” heresy before the Horus heresy.
The two lost Primarchs are a meta thing.
They're representing the legions that you and your opponent use if you want to homebrew them
Yet when Horus insisted on knowing what happened to his other siblings - which is a pretty reasonable question - Malcador threatened to wipe Horus from existence. #GrimDerp 😂
They wanted pineapple on pizza.
(C'mon, Baldemort. You know what to say...😂)
You know he was for pineapple on pizza in that right
@@adamcotton8163 ssshhhh it's the bait in this ingenious trap I have lain to get him to comment...😋
I have a theory that one of the two is sent to the future to check if the emperor's plan worked. He never returned, so is deemed "lost". So, the next one is sent back into the past, to become the emperor himself. This was done at Molech. That's why the other primarchs presto there had their memories wiped.
one of them participated in the Rangdan xenocide
I bet the two lost Primarch embodied the Emperor’s Empathy and Optimism.
so they were empty shells?
Wasn't Anggron the empath before the butcher's nails
Angron was Empathy. That is a very well known fact. That's like half of his entire character arc. He was supposed to be one of the medics and caretakers of the Primarchs. Instead he became...a butcher. If only his mother could see him now. I wonder how she'd justify her actions.
@@silverpact1008 @tamashii1942 Ah I apologize. I meant that the emperor isn't exactly empathetic towards his "children" and his rather none existent optimism. It was meant to be a diss.
Since the two lost Primarch's exist to give fans wiggle room for their own fanon legions, I wouldn't be much concerned with their mystery ever being revealed.
The OG Fathers of the Marines Malevolent and Minotaurs.
while i was watching this, i just got a theory about the Lost Primarchs: the Lost primarchs might have become test subjects (Knowingly or Not) by the ruinous powers of chaos as an experiment to see if they can corrupt a Primarch:" the Emperor's Greatest Creations", then it has a chance to defeat him. Remember: the Warp is Dependent to human emotions and spirit. and the emperor of mankind is i think, weakening its powers by conquering Human-setteld planets, which devolved into superstitions and religions, which to the warp: a tool to absorb the humanity's Dark desires and its pyschic energy, like hate, decadence, political backstabbings etc.) to fuel them thus they create a little experiment which ultimately succeeded in corrupting one but the emperor knew it and killed both primarchs then malcador at the request of him, erase anything related to those 2 primarchs and take their legions. but unkown to Anathema, they got what they wanted: they successfully corrupted a primarch and use this to Horus through Erebus of Word bearers to report it to Lorgar then Corrupt Horus leading to the Horus Heresy. this is my theory about the fate of the Lost Primarchs.
Except, you've COMPLETELY misunderstood the warp. The Chaos Gods are not actually "Ruinous Powers", and they're only twisted and corrupted because of all the negativity and bad emotions flowing into them through the universe. They don't want to stop GOOD emotions from happening, they want to be known about.
Anathema isn't snuffing them out by stopping bad emotions, he's snuffing them out by erasing all knowledge of them. IF you don't believe in the chaos gods, and no one else does, they become completely benign and pathetic.
Don't forget, they weren't even able to kidnap Big E's sons on purpose before the heresy. Big E's female lab partner, the donor for the other half of the primarch gene seeds, betrayed the imperium and literally GAVE the babies to the chaos gods. Not by being corrupted. Entirely of her own, poorly-thought out rebellion against his tyranny. She knew the chaos gods were so weak she could take them all on by herself at the time, so she wasn't worried about them taking her sons.
Then plot happened, and her favorite baby boy became a slave with metal nails in his brain. Serves her right.
The found the emperors search history…
Lore wise:
Traitor Primarchs, Choas Demon princes, Eldar, the warp damn Chaos gods themselves! All have had 10k years to spill the beans on the two missing Primarchs.
There is literally Nothing stopping them from using that level of anti-imperial propaganda to put a wedge into the shit show that is Imperium of the Emperor.
GW reasons: Shut up. Stop asking. We won’t tell you. Just guess. But you’ll still be wrong.
Well, there is no guarantee that any of those would really know too much about them. We know that at least one of the lost primarchs was purged really early on, as is so early on that only horus and Russ ever met him
What we as readers know is not necessarily even a fraction of what characters in universe know. For example Abbadon didn't know anything about the war in heaven until vashtorr told him
I do wonder what Big E knew of the necrons, they didn't really become active until after the heresy and probably weren't around during the daot
But who would ever believe the enemy? Would you?
Yeah, Malcador wiped their memories of the whole thing...so what's to say the memories that Dorn had in that moment were authentic?
My guess is they would be integral to the Emperor's plans. Maybe even in the Terrminus Decree. Or it's possible they were sent of what's effectively black ops and the other Primarchs could not know about it.
[DATA EXPUNGED] they went and. [DATA EXPUNGED] They said [DATA EXPUNGED] emperor save us
One theory I love is that they were indeed corrupted...but not by chaos...but by the old ones and the C'tan themselves and thus proving not even the primarchs are aware of the war of the old ones and the C'tan, the 2nd possesed by the old ones and the 11th by the C'tan
With all of the Primarchs that passed Big E's vibe check, you gotta wonder what these two did to deserve to be totally erased from memory.
My head cannon is that at least one of the lost Primarchs chose to side with a xeno faction for whatever reason
I always find it funny how much play the fact that GW considered the two "missing" primarchs to be a placeholder for one loyalist and one traitor homebrew paint jobs.
I love that this implies that both of the lost primarchs were either insanely powerful or did something so unspeakable that it required such a measure by the Emperor. God damn I wanna know what happened, but I know it's a great mystery.
Meanwhile Konrad Kurze flaying the skin off some poor kid and wearing it as a mask "Yeah, I'm fine with this."
My personal theory is that at least one of those primarchs turned on the Emperor and fought against becoming part of Empire. The space marines under that primarch were misguided but salvagable. The other more than likely fell to xenos or was colluding with them and had to be purged.
"Why dont we remember the lost primarchs?"
"I removed your memories of them. You actually asked me to do it."
"Well put them back!"
"Youll just ask me to remove them again, like you did the last fourty five times we had this exact conversation."