ARCHERY: How to Silence ILF Limbs Easily !!!
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- Everyone LOVES ILF limbs...
Everyone HATES ILF limbs... because they're NOISY !
Check out this video for an ELEGANT way to silence the majority of your ILF "rattle" in just a couple of minutes, and for less than $5 bucks !
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
MUSIC CREDITS !!!!!
Music: "Happiness" from Bensound.com - Спорт
The string is never under zero tension unless the bow is unstrung. I'm not saying ILF is quiet or even a good design. But the limbs are never catching up with the string.
I'm sure those felt tabs will mitigate the noise caused by the limbs striking the riser when released, but, they are also going to affect your tiller as they wear due to compression.
Greetings Waltham & Happy New Year!
You & I are in complete AGREEMENT about the felt tabs - their benefits AND their shortcomings.
TRUTH BE TOLD?
I'm falling OUT-of-love with EVERYTHING "ILF"
There are simply too many faults in the entire ILF concept:
- too much complexity
- poor design from start to finish (too many points-of-vibration)
- too much PRECISION is required, and there are too many companies NOT adhering to standards;
in fact I've bought SHITTY parts even from our beloved/respected LANCASTER ARCHERY
All in the name of ease-of-limb-swapping.
WHO CARES???
I can buy a $79 bow with cheap-ass SQUARE PLASTIC LIMB POCKETS and SCREW-in BOLTS that are "STANDARDIZED" enough that I can SWAP LIMBS JUST AS EASILY :O ...
I won't be a bit surprised if ILF DISAPPEARS within the next decade - it's a "BROKEN PROMISE" if you ask me - it just results in limbs that are OVERLY-COMPLEX and therefore OVERLY-EXPENSIVE, and in the end all the EFFORT (and cost) when into the FITTING and NOT ENOUGH effort went into the LIMB ITSELF :-O...
Mark my words - see you in 2033 ;-)
-Mark | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
hi fella thank you for getting back to me it is a cert just to shoot , you know what the uk is like we have to have a licence to fire a lolly pop stick from a rubber band like i used to at school years ago, they take everything too far here its all a pain in the rear, iv got a practice shoot at 11 today i will be shooting bear bow as my instructor has taught me instinctive shooting which i love its amazing i am looking to progress to competition as i get better at this sport, will be target shooting at 30 yards today, would like to keep in touch with you stay safe and have a great day.
Greetings again Michael in the UK !
Over the years I've been in Bristol and York, and most of my DNA is Welsh (east-coast Canadian mum), so it pleases me to make more acquaintances in the UK !
Just FYI - it's "bare" bow instead of "bear" bow; "bare" meaning "empty or naked bow" in this case!
You say you're also learning to shoot "instinctively" which is great - I'll be curious to see if you compare "Instinctive" shooting with my own VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD, which in essence simply combines OLYMPIC RECURVE shooting techniques together with STRING WALKING to give "barebow" archers all the accuracy of a COMPOUND BOW - and you can learn this method in 5 simple steps and 30 seconds - INTERESTED?
Here's one of my better "VOGTLAND SHOOTING METHOD" videos to start:
ua-cam.com/video/YsnpQdE-5zw/v-deo.html
Here's a BETTER one:
ua-cam.com/video/JPjF1vZMeFg/v-deo.html
Here's an more "TUTORIAL" style if your attention span is longer than 1 minute:
ua-cam.com/video/wXtecdh2SxE/v-deo.html
I've got people literally ALL OVER THE PLANET adopting this simple, oh-so-fucking-INTUITIVE shooting method, and sending me compliments every day - CHECK OUT MY OTHER COMMENTS!
Good luck !
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Exe scream/junxing Pharoah 2 riser is absolutely wonderful. Heavy but wonderful.
Greetings Chief Shadow and welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS !
GLAD you enjoyed the video on the EXE SCREAM riser and the JUNXING F163 (different bows!) bows.
I like BOTH of them, but right now I've got 45# DAS LONGBOW limbs on the EXE Scream riser, and I must confess... it's SLOW and has considerable VIBRATION that goes into the ARROW when STRINGWALKING :-|
IF I could just get a bit more CONSISTENCY with the JUNXING F163 limbs, I'd be ECSTATIC !
But when shooting at even 20m, I'm noticing that this bow starts to shoot HIGHER after it's "warmed up" and the limbs have been shot about 10 to 20 times - STRANGE!
But I'm super-pleased with the JUNXING F163, particularly for only $104 bucks - WOW !
TELL me more about about YOUR "JUNXING PHAROAH 2" riser - I'm only just learning about the JUNXING product line ...
Awaiting your reply,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
hi fella thank you for that it makes sense, kind regards mike in the uk, ps just got my archery cert a month ago whoop whoop, got a shoot 2moz oh yeah.
Greetings Michael & welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS !
1. Glad you found this ILF-limb-silencing video useful !
2. CONGRATS on your "Archery Certification" - what IS that? A certification to INSTRUCT, or simply to SHOOT? (things are different between the UK and the USA). Now you've got me CURIOUS !
3. You said you have a "shoot" (competition) in 2 months? Indoor? What distance? How are you going to shoot - BAREBOW (I sure hope so!) - Let me know if you wish any pointers !
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
'Deceptively cool and sexy...' LMAO!!!
NEVER heard of a technique for silencing ILF limbs as "sexy", but I'll TAKE it !
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Cool hat bro !👍🏹🏹
Greetings & Happy Holidays Brian !
GLAD you liked the HAT - I've got SEVERAL fur "bomber" hats I love to hunt in 'em - they're MAGICAL.
HERE'S WHERE I GET 'EM:
www.wildthingsfur.com/
This is a GENUINE lost-in-the-hippie-boonies-of-west-central-Wisconsin FAMILY-OWNED and FAMILY-OPERATED BUSINESS:
The DAUGHTER works the front office...
The MOTHER works the back desk...
The DAD and (believe it or not) GRANDMOTHER do all the TANNING...
They told me they TRY to use lots & lots of ROAD KILL - animals that people hit, then other people pick up along the roadside and sell back to WildThings, so you're getting fur hats, but without the guilt of thinking these animals were hunted & killed.
Way cool.
I've "made the pilgrimage" up to the Wild Things store - all I can tell you is, it's somewhere between Madison and LaCrosse; I mean it's literally LOST in the hippy-boonies of wild Wisconsin, and in a blink-once-and-you-miss-it town. You have to KNOW it exists and keep looking until you almost TRIP on it.
It's NOT in-the-middle-of-nowhere... but you can SEE "nowhere" - it's just down the road a piece ;-) .
But they get NON-STOP BUSINESS YEAR-ROUND - that's what GREAT QUALITY and GREAT SERVICE gets you in a family-operated business.
Go get a hat yourself. I'm not ashamed at all to brag about and promote this family !
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
That voids warranty. Rather than continuity in design it’s like buying a bicycle and add rubber pads in joints. I super thin piece of neoprene may work but only for few shots then the touching point still touches
Interesting, I bought a Samick discovery from three rivers. First shot was always a loud crack. Called them twice they never heard of a bow doing this. I put limb savers on the limb with cat whiskers that work great after the first shot. I’ll try your method and see if it works. Maybe you can go work for three rivers.
Greetings & welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS Robert !
Hmmmm... "loud **CRACK**" on the FIRST shot... and then it gets better?
:-O
I can GUESS (accurately) what it ACTUALLY might be - and my diagnosis might SURPRISE you :-O ...
QUESTION:
IS it really a loud "CRACK!" or a loud "**SLAP**" - like you took an old-school 12 in ruler and SLAPPED it on a desktop?
I'm GUESSING it's more of a ***SLAP*** you're hearing, and here's what's happening:
What you're hearing is the SLAP of a WAXED BOWSTRING "slapping" the "recurved" part at the top & bottom of your Samick Discovery (a RECURVE bow) limbs.
EMPHASIS on "SLAP"...
EMPHASIS on "WAXED", because I've observed that its the STICKY, WAXED portion of the bowstring which makes the LOUDEST ***SLAP*** :-O
This LIMB-SLAP-based vibration is only PART of the noise a RECURVE BOW makes.
Actually the NOISE an ILF RECURVE BOW makes (the NOISIEST bows on earth!) come from 3 SOURCES:
Source # 1: BOWSTRING VIBRATION
THIS noise is a FUNDAMENTAL vibration and a softer HARMONIC vibration JUST like a GUITAR STRING, only there's NO "resonator" (sound-amplifying box) like a GUITAR or VIOLIN has.
THIS vibration spreads out in a CYLINDER around the bowstring itself, which is why THIS noise is audible to EVERYONE EQUALLY:
- the ARCHER hears this sound;
- your TARGET (eg a DEER) will hear this noise; and
- archers to the SIDE of you will ALSO hear this noise.
It will sound like you plucked the LOWEST string on a big bass guitar, and will last for SECONDS
The SOLUTION to DAMPING this LOW-frequency vibration is STRING SILENCERS of ANY TYPE
SOURCE # 2: BOW LIMB VIBRATION
The STRING VIBRATION "feeding" into the BOW LIMBS, making the LIMBS vibration laterally (forward & backward) like little flat SPEAKERS :-O.
The limbs are ALSO "fed" by the **SLAP!** of the waxed bowstring onto the back surfaces at the top & bottom of each bow limb.
These are HIGHER-FREQUENCY vibrations, which is why they sound like a "SLAP!" instead of a "BOINGGGG..."
The LIMBS are STIFFER than the BOWSTRING, so they have a Natural Frequency much much HIGHER than the bowstring, so it sounds like a ***SLAP*** - then it DISSIPATES much more quickly than the BOWSTRING... but it STILL LASTS FOR EVEN SEVERAL SECONDS :-O
The SOLUTION to DAMPING this MIDDLE-frequency vibration is twofold:
Solution 1: LIMB SILENCERS of ANY TYPE; and
Solution 2: STICK-ON VELCRO TAPE (fuzzy half) on the BACK "RECURVE" SURFACE OF EACH LIMB
SOURCE # 3: ILF LIMB CONTACT-POINT VIBRATION
ILF limb pockets have all sort of small METAL parts which TOUCH when the bow is strung, but when you DRAW the bowstring WITH AN ARROW and then RELEASE it - this may SURPRISE you too - at one point in the bowstring's path it becomes MOMENTARILY LIMP !!!
:-O
WHO KNEW?
But if you watch enough HIGH-SPEED VIDEOS of ANY bow shooting ANY arrow, you'll SEE this "Moment of Limpness" every single time :-O :-O :-O
So what HAPPENS?
Simple: the ILF LIMB PARTS SEPARATE momentarily.
And then when the bowstring REGAINS tension, the PARTS inside the ILF limb pocket "CLICK" !!!
In fact, it often (sadly & annoyingly) comes across as a very-high-frequency "**RATTLE**
VERY ANNOYING !
ANYONE who has stood ALONGSIDE an Olympic Target Archer shooting an ILF bow knows PRECISELY what I'm talking about - NOISY !!!
The SOLUTION for this HIGH-FREQUENCY vibration (noise) is PADDING at the CONTACT POINTS
The cheapest, simplest "padding" are those little 1/4" FELT PADS you put on furniture & nick-nacks. You can buy these pads at ANY Menards, HomeDepot, Lowes, Walmart, Ace Hardware - they're everywhere!
SO THERE YOU HAVE IT:
- 3 SOURCES of VIBRATION
- 3 TYPES of VIBRATION (3 FREQUENCIES of NOISE)
- 3 (actually 4) SOLUTIONS for REDUCING all 3 types of VIBRATION (noise):
1. STRING SILENCERS for the LOW-FREQUENCY vibration caused by the BOWSTRING;
2. LIMB SILENCERS for the MID-FREQUENCY vibration caused by the BOW LIMBS;
3. LIMB PADDING for the MID-FREQUENCY "slap" caused by WAXED BOWSTRINGS hitting LIMBS;
4. ILF LIMB POCKET PADDING for the HIGH-FREQUENCY "rattle" caused by ILF LIMB "rattling" in LIMB POCKETS at release!
You add all 4 of these solutions to your ILF recurve bow, and you'll be PLEASED with the result !
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS thank you sir I’ll try all. I love the bow it shoots great. Now I know you should work for three rivers. Hope to see more of your videos.
Hi again Robert !
Work for 3 Rivers?
Heck - I'm HOPING I get a call from SAMICK and BEAR !
;-)
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
Hi Robert , are you unstringing your bow after your shooting session? If so thats why your first shot sounds like that and it's normal after unstringing and restringing .
Once in a while I get that first shot crack with my ILF bow. I unstring my bow and hang it vertidally on a peg.. when I restring to shoot it... I give the limbs a little tug towards the riser... sometimes I find that the pressure button thing slips out and the limb isn't seated well. That might be the source. When I discovered that.... it didn't happen anymore if I check the limb seat with a tug... before the first shot.
I shoot ILF and don't find this to be true, with my bows, sorry. But then again I don't shoot 3 under, and in my opinion creates more stress on your string, creating your bow to make a louder noise. So in 3 under this seems to be a good fix
Hi Dan !
Thanks for your perspective - this "synergy" is what is making this channel grow !
Me?
While outdoors I mostly shoot next to compound archers (it's a 90m outdoor range that is easily 20 lanes wide and PUBLIC, so VERY POPULAR!) and an even mixture of various types of recurves and longbows and myriad asian bows...
... when I'm shooting indoors it's a mixture of only compound bows and ILF (very few DAS so far) Olympic Recurves, and I can state these facts:
1. INDOORS you REALLY NOTICE if a bow is LOUD;
2. INDOORS you CAN'T hear YOUR bow as well as the guys NEXT to you can!
3. INDOORS easily 3/4 of all ILF recurve bows are NOISY, and everyone knows it, which is why there all these different SILENCING METHODS.
It's NOT "Mark" .
A GOOGLE search for "noisy ILF limbs" turns up HUNDREDS of results going back as far as 2008, with every vendor from Amazon to Lancaster selling "fixes", and every forum from tradtalk.com to facebook discussing "ILF bow noisy but used to be quiet"...
I'm not imagining it ;-) !
This IS really common, but you need people to the side of you to TELL you if your bow is noisy... OR you need to shoot with about 4 lanes to your left and right, all by yourself, and then you WILL hear the sounds I describe. That brief "*RATTLE* that happens at the moment the bowstring goes momentarily limp, then "TWANGS" and rattles the limbs in the pockets. This is also what everyone else describes...
I've seen that it doesn't matter the size of the riser or limbs; a 50 inch 50# ILF bow can & will "rattle" just as much as a 68 inch 30# ILF bow...
I WOULD SAY THIS THOUGH:
ILF RECURVE limbs (particularly HIGHLY RECURVED) also experience more "string slap" on the belly side of the curves, and this contributes to even LOUDER bows than (say) the LONGBOW limbs I'm currently shooting on my 17 in EXE SCREAM ILF riser.
BIG TAKEAWAY:
If you DO have an ILF bow that is "noisier than you WANT" - YOU CAN reduce this a GREAT DEAL! Even ILF bows with highly-recurved limbs.
There are 4 major areas which are the SOURCE of most bow noise:
1. RATTLING at the ILF limb-to-limb pocket CONTACT POINTS; this emanates in ALL directions;
2. Bowstring SLAP on the rear (belly) faces of recurve libs; mostly this emanates BACKWARDS, which is why the ARCHER hears this slap more than anyone else;
3. Bowstring VIBRATION emanating radially (cylindrically) away from the bowstring itself in ALL directions, but it's often LOW frequency, almost like a rubber band; and
4. Limb VIBRATION emanating fore and aft of the limb surfaces, higher frequence (more like a "BUZZ" because the limbs have a higher Natural Frequency than the Bowstring) and "energized" by vibrations transmitted from the bowstring into the limbs and causing them to resonate, precisely the same way a GUITAR STRING vibration is transmitted into the "saddle" mounted on the top of the guitar, and through this saddle the entire TOP of the guitar resonates, MAGNIFYING the sound while also PROPAGATING it.
Wow - the SCIENCE of SOUND propagation in BOWS - WHO KNEW??
;-)
CORRECTIONS TO REDUCE ("ATTENUATE") THESE SOURCES OF NOISE:
1. PADDING at the ILF limb-to-limb pocket CONTACT points (hence my video);
2. FUZZY VELCRO PADDING along the surfaces (about 8" to 10") where string slap could possibly occur; already lots of videos on this;
3. STRING SILENCERS (beaver balls, adjustable Navajo yarn balls, even rubber & leather) tied on the bowstring in 2 places, but ADJUSTABLE, since you'll need to MOVE these "shock absorbers" until they're at what WERE the original MAXIMUM AMPLITUDE locations on the bowstirng, assuming the Drawing Point is often a "node" (point of MINIMAL vibration after release) ; and
4. LIMB VIBRATION DAMPERS - they really DO work.
That's it - this turned into a lengthy reply.
I'm GLAD that YOUR bow is quiet - good for you !
But please know that NOT everyone is as lucky (or clever) as you are ;-)
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
3 under is way more noisy than split
For the life of me... I don't understand why people think the ILF makes a bunch of noise. SURE when the bow isn't strung up. The tightness of the string keeps that raddling silent along with the tension of the limbs vs bowstring when not being fired. Yes you have bow string noise... maybe some string slap up by the tips of a recurve when fired. The ILF connection stays tight with no noise. If it make you feel good then do it.
Merry Christmas Will !
I think big disappointment with the entire ILF "phenomenon" is 1-2-3:
1. It SEEMS sexy & cool to "click" limbs in rather than bolt-them-down; but
2. there are MULTIPLE MOVING PARTS in ILF, and NOT all manufacturers are EQUAL; so
3. while YOUR bow might be nice & quiet (excellent tolerances on YOUR riser, fittings & limbs), MY bow (well over $300 for the ILF riser + over $250 for the ILF) has been a BRUTAL DISAPPOINTMENT - there's no other way to say it.
:-(
Then there are the stupifying IRONIES one discovers with the entire ILF system:
- if you DO get a shitty combination (riser/fittings + limb/fittings) you'll spend MORE time tweaking them than if you simply have simpler, ALWAYS-quiet BOLT-DOWN limbs; AND
- HOW OFTEN do you really need to QUICK-CONNECT your limbs ANYWAY??? I mean, WHAT'S THE REAL DIFFERENCE between "click-click" 10 seconds to "ILF" your limbs on and "twist-twist-twist-twist" 60 seconds to "BOLT ON" your limbs?
IT REALLY DOESN'T MATTER :-O
I've been in numerous state championships now, too many 3D shoots within 200 miles of North Aurora IL to count, and one VegasShoot qualifier...
... and NOT ONCE have I heard or seen a competitor suddenly exclaim "WAIT - I need to replace my 38# ILF limbs with 36# ILF limbs, but I ONLY HAVE 10 SECONDS!"
:-|
Nope - never happened.
The FINAL IRONY is this:
ILF limb hardware actually DISTRACTS limb makers from making the best LIMBS they can, because they end up spending more time on the CONNECTIONS.
LASTLY IS THIS TRUTH:
I came in 2nd and 3rd place in the last state indoor championship using a $105 bow with BOLT-ON LIMBS, and THE BOW SHOT GREAT. I lost to a true CHAMPION who - admittedly - had an EXPENSIVE bow with ILF LIMBS, but I can assure you he DIDN'T win BECAUSE OF the ILF limbs.
I predict that in my lifetime (20 years left?) we'll see ILF limb fittings REPLACED by something either OLDER (bolt-on) or at least SIMPLER, with ZERO MOVING (or RATTLING) PARTS. It simply MUST happen.
In the meantime there will be the LUCKY "Wills" with excellent ILF fittings on THEIR bows...
... and they'll be the UNLUCKY "Mark's" whose allegedly-famous-labeled-ILF fittings arguably SUCK.
:-|
I can live with that !
I'm glad YOUR bow (riser/fittings + limbs/fittings) are nice & quiet for YOU !
I mean that.
But a quick Google search by YOU will turn up HUNDREDS even THOUSANDS of hits of people like me DISILLUSIONED with the entire ILF system, and with good reason - we're NOT hallucinating - even UNDER TENSION our own ILF bows are LOUD :-|
I can assure you NONE of the "standard ILF" parts (especially the pins going into the limbs themselves) are UNIFORM - what a huge disappointment I got from LANCASTER ARCHERY last year :-(
Cheers,
-Mark
The Kaminski tiller bolts help a lot with proper figment of the limbs. Machined surfaces, which are mostly all the contact points, should not be padded as you are changing spec’s of the bow. It’s going to be hard to get the consistency out of the bow with the play created by padding that is not supposed to be there. I don’t even mind the minor noise my ILF’s make. No bow is silent as you all may think and no matter what, you will get a deer to jump at that noise, so just do your job and get close and practice .
Greetings John & welcome to VOGTLAND OUTDOORS !
You have my thanks for taking time & effort to compose this your thoughtful reply !
"Figment"?
Hmmmm... - I'm not familiar with that term - not in the context of Archery. Neither is Google ;-)
Did you mean something else?
I'm guessing you may have mean "alignment" or "placement" ?
You & I are in complete AGREEMENT: placing PADDING into empty, "rattling" spaces in my own riser's ILF pockets CAN'T actually IMPROVE consistency - particularly when my spacers gradually get SQUISHED (read "CHANGE SHAPE").
You & I also are in agreement that we may simply have to ACCEPT some noise in our ILF limbs...
... so consider taking a DIFFERENT, QUIETER bow with FIXED limbs out hunting ;-)
Regarding "getting close" - I DID my job pretty well this season, getting some small does to come easily within 20m of me - AND I WAS ON THE GROUND FACING THEM AND DRAWING ON THEM WHILE THEY STARED AT ME BROADSIDE - HOW COOL IS THAT ??? ;-)
Here's the video:
ua-cam.com/video/NYOHHwv2qVY/v-deo.html
Thanks again for your insightful reply - that's what is making this channel grow !
Respectfully,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
@@VOGTLANDOUTDOORS sorry, I did mean something else, fitment, not a googleable word either but it explains what I was getting at better than fingment. By no means did I mean anything negative even though re-reading it I seemed quite critical when I am the last person to criticize. Love your videos and your ability to explain clearly all things archery to such a new by as me. I mentioned the getting closer part as strictly a thought to possibly eliminate any noise from startling the target. Yes, I am envious to anyone who gets close for a good clean shot and you are doing that well. Good luck on future hunts and keep up the videos!
John,
Please know I took NO offense to your original post; in fact I VALUED the feedback - it's what makes operating a channel rewarding !
Cheers,
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS