How to lockout and phase your HEI - Part 2 - Questions answered
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- Опубліковано 13 тра 2023
- I had multiple questions on the first video so instead of trying to answer the same question multiple times I decided to make another video. I also added a little extra info at the end of the video. Let me know what you think and also if you have any other questions.
Disclaimer: I mentioned this in another video but I want to be clear that this distributor machine was not my original idea or design. After searching for a good used distributor machine for years with no luck, I finally found a post online about a guy who made his own and he posted about it with some instructions. He had a good overall idea and design that I followed and I made a few tweaks to make mine fit for what I wanted to accomplish. Anyway, I don't want to pretend this was all my idea but I am glad I finally found that article because this thing has been so much fun to play with. - Авто та транспорт
Back in the -70’s, I messed round with similar. I used a Sun 505 distributor machine, and combined it with a Sun engine analyzer, for the oscilloscope. Phasing had a huge effect on secondary voltage required and available.
Think it was Mr Gasket, had a gadget with a knob, that replaced the vacuum advance, with the ability to vary the phasing.
Ultimately, I ended up epoxy bedding the breaker plates, and later, the trigger / reluctor.
I was chasing spark scatter / ignition timing stability at high RPM’s.
This led into making a dummy distributor to measure distributor / camshaft gear backlash. Nuther story…
Another great video Bruce with a bunch of gold nuggets of info! I’ll remember the distributor gear trick, especially when I want ‘half a tooth’ offset to line up the cap:)
I have recently bought 2 hei distributors and both of them had failed from being out of speck . not only was the phasing incorrect but the adjustable timing advance can would not even bring them in to proper phase . one other issue was too much clearance at the distributor gear drive between 30 and 50 thou . when i changed the shims and got it to 10 thou clearance and fixed my bouncing timing and oil pressure . also elongating the screw slots on the vacuum can to bring them into proper phasing . who ever thought you would have to reengineer a brand new distributor and then a second one with similar problems . the old days stuff was more reliable then these days . thanks for sharing you couldn't be more precise on your video . awesome tech
Unfortunately, quality control simply doesn't exist any more. I changed the magnetic pickup in one of my distributors a couple of years ago and I had to buy three just to find one that worked properly and even then I had to make adjustments so the teeth on the pickup wouldn't come into contact with the reluctor.
I also had a new module that was defective from day one but it took me months to track down a problem I was having because I -assumed- it wasn't the new module causing the issue. Turns out the dwell in the module wasn't adjusting as it should...it was stuck so as I accelerated to about 55 MPH and tried to go faster, the engine would backfire and I'd lose power. Lesson learned there...always double check your new parts, LOL.
Excellent explanation for understanding how the advanced or retardation works both internally and externally in a
H.E.I. Distributor!
That's what she said. 😂. Great video Bruce
You mentioned in a previous reply about wanting to do a video with a TBI distributor. That would be very interesting.
These are really good videos. I am having a cut out issue with our MSD ignition and distributor and I was going to lock out an HEI and try it just for testing purposes.
MSD distributors have an issue with the magnetic pickup getting corroded so I'd take a look at that. Depending on your setup, it could be a spark plug issue too. If you are running "race plugs", they do not have a resistor so they may be causing RF interference. I have a friend who races a COPO Camaro and started having ignition issues shortly after changing spark plugs. Apparently, those cars/engines don't like non-resistor spark plugs, lOL. I have a video testing the resistance on multiple spark plugs that you may be interested in watching.
@@BruceCoggins this combo just started out of the blue, a little after we installed a Boost Leash Pulse Leash. I have replaced the cap, rotor, and magnetic pick up, checked the phasing (phasing was perfect) and issue is still there. I had same issue trying to record it with a camera lol. Video is on my channel. I sent the box out for testing and MSD said it was good. Had carburetor rebuilt by CSU. Cleaned fuel filter, changed plugs and wires, re-set rockers and a few other things I cannot think of. Car revs just fine in park in neutral but driving down the road it cuts out around 4800 like it is on the 2 step. Other than that, it drives, starts, and idles just fine.
Hidden HEI performance:
HEI’s oem and most aftermarket units Do Not have a positive stop for the mechanical advance; instead it relies on the advance weight return springs to be the limiter!
This is a bad design and reduces top end performance by allowing sometimes as much as 8+ degrees of timing advance at rpms above 4500+. 😳
Power and performance will be improved, if running an advance curve, by limiting the max mechanical advance by installing/modifying the slots. JD
Interesting “Note” on rotor phasing: The driven gear on the bottom of the distributor should/normally has a dot on one side; the “dot” should face the same direction as the rotor tip.
Check to verify it was assembled correctly. JD
Correct, the dot is generally in line with the rotor tip...at least that's the way they come from the factory however, the dot is just a reference point. Some gears do not have a dot at all like the one that was in the test fixture while others seem to have the dot offset. Either way though, the gear can be turned 180* for fine tuning the location of the distributor in relation to any obstacle interfering with the adjustment. It will not effect timing or how the engine runs. Again, thank you for your input. I've been watching your videos...keep up the great work.
The thing that DOES effect rotor phasing, though, is vacuum advance. I've argued with a few people that I would expect to know better who believe that the phasing changes with the mechanical advance. It don't. Vacuum advance- it do. Luckily, with a decent distributor when your foot gets heavy on the pedal and the vacuum drops out of the intake manifold the rotor phasing reverts to the correct position- aiming directly at the cap terminal. Bruce, you forgot to point out that the aftermarket vacuum cans that you showed with the hexagon (or octagon- whatever they are) shaped nose have an adjustable spring inside that is accessed with an allen wrench through the hose nipple. I find that a lot of times (most) with an aggressive timing curve (short) and quick full advance that the vacuum advance becomes useless. I often lock the plate that the points or magnetic pickup mount on down solid verifying adjustment for proper rotor phasing checked with a windowed cap and timing light. I have old caps modified for various engines. The plate was designed to rotate with the use of the vacuum advance and that's where the rotor mis-phasing happens. Depending on the vehicle that is being worked on I might just leave the vacuum can in place and disable it by filling the nipple with some RTV or put a restriction in the vacuum hose instead of locking the plate down and completely eliminating the can. Of course the hose could be left off altogether but, uhh, that don't look so good. Besides, I hate to have to deal with someone who insists that using vacuum advance is gonna change yer life, so they have no idea that the can is only there for appearance. MSD distributors are nice with provision to use the vacuum advance can or to completely eliminate it and the use of the easily accessable GM style mechanical advance but I think they should have made the limiter bushing somehow more accessible. I guess it's not ALL that big of a deal to knock the roll pin out and pull it apart. They ARE expensive, though, and I usually end up modifying whatever I have in my hands at the time. I guess I was in a babbling mood. Sorry. Oh, and Bruce, did I tell ya? I dig your machine🫡
@@mickangio16 Thanks my friend. There is always more that I could go into but I have this weird problem that whenever I hit the record button, my mind goes blank or I forget what I'm saying and so when I watch my videos I'm like...what the heck...why did I say that? hahahahahaha. I tend to leave things out too...oh well, that gives me something else to talk about for another video, LOL I appreciate your input.
@@BruceCoggins sorry, I don't mean to sound like some kind of know-it-all but I really don't have anyone to talk to about this kind of stuff and I can get somewhat carried away haha.
@@mickangio16 LoL no worries my friend...you didn't come across as a know it all ...we are all in this together and we can all learn something from each other. I don't want to pretend that I have all the answers so I'm very happy to hear any positive feedback. Look me up on Facebook if you're on there and send me a friend request. We can chat all you want...
Nice setup. What electric motor are you using and what are you using to connect to the distributor? Thanks
Thank you. I got the idea for this online somewhere but I made a few changes to make it "mine". Anyway, I used a Murray fan motor PM102. To connect the motor to the distributor, I used a small block Chevy oil pump drive rod that I cut and then connected that to the motor with a piece of hose. That part needs to be somewhat flexible.
i was thinking about this last year putting a new hei on a old 283 with a 327/350hp cam,
without a hole in the cap, how do i know the roter is lined up with the cap conductor?
IF the advance is locked out - Mark the number one terminal on the housing and with the cap and rotor removed, the magnetic pickup and reluctor should be lined up...if they are, put the cap and rotor on and you should be good to go. If they are not then make an adjustment to the vacuum canister or lockout plate until they are lined up. Hope this answered your question.
If you changed camshafts, would you have to rephase the rotor?
Negative. Once you phase the distributor, it's phased. Basically, your just making sure the magnetic pickup is in line with the reluctor and once it's locked down it won't change.
@@BruceCoggins thanks!
Great!! Thanks for clarifying!!
I wonder if a black wheel with a white line would show up better in well lit environments?
The main issue is the frame rate. The black line on a white wheel shows up just fine but the camera frame rate doesn't match the strobe of the timing light. As I adjust the frame rate to capture more frames per second, it uses way more storage and my video files get too large...I have it set it up for a happy medium. I shoot video at either 30 fps or 60 fps usually. I've also tried three different timing lights and the one in the video seems to work the best for video. Thank you for the suggestion though.
can you hook an old climate control cable leaver to the timing with 0 being marked center ect?
I think I know what you're asking but I don't see why it would be necessary. Once you lock the magnetic pickup in place and it's phased properly, you shouldn't ever need to move it again. Are you looking for a way to adjust it on the fly or something? Again, that isn't necessary.
Hello again. Is a computer needed to use a TBI distributor? Thank you in advance.
If you have an aftermarket ignition box then, no. You must remove the module and only use the magnetic pickup.
If you want to keep the module in place then I am not sure that will work. Those modules have a total of 6 pins...two pins go to the coil and the other 4 go to the computer so that is why you should remove the module and fire it off the magnetic pickup.
The TBI distributor is just a solid shaft so it is automatically locked out and phased so if you are looking for a small body distributor that is locked out, this is a cheap alternative.
How do u get rid of the hei module in these ? Circle track use for me
In order to remove the module you will need an aftermarket ignition box...MSD, Crane, Pertronix, etc...hook that up to the magnetic pickup and you're golden.
Hello, I am doing a HEI install on a AMC 360 , What I need to know is, do I keep or take off the the voltage regulator ? Thanks for the Video's.
I'm a little confused about your question...there is no voltage regulator associated with an HEI distributor. Did you lock your distributor out? If so then did you remove the module or leave it in place? You can look me up on Facebook and send me a picture of what you're talking about and I might be able to help you a little better.
Hello, Thanks for your reply. My 1975 Jeep Cherokee had all stock distributor ,coil, resistors & and a voltage regulator After I had taken everything off. I began having running problems after HEI install. I thought maybe I might still need the voltage regulator ? I am all new to the HEI and it had already burned out the ICM. This is what I am trying to figure out. Thanks
If the spark gap does not fall directly in front of the spark plug wire terminal, could it cause the gasoline to not burn well and cause the spark plugs to turn black over time? as if it had excess fuel. ? Could it also cause the engine to not have a good response?
Could the counterweight springs be responsible for this failure? Greetings and thanks for your video friend
Great questions. If the spark does not occur directly at the terminal or between cylinders, it can cause two cylinders to fire at the same time. You might feel something like a misfire or you might not feel anything at all. This shouldn't cause the spark plugs to turn black. If your plugs at turning black then they are fouling...it could be oil fouling or you could have an overly rich fuel condition.
A few things I would try. 1- Double check your timing. I would need more info about your combination in order to give you a recommendation on where to set it but if it is too low, that can definitely cause your issue. 2- you might need a hotter spark plug. Running a plug that is too cold can cause fouling. 3- the carburetor might be jetted too rich or may not be adjusted properly. Again, I don't have enough information about your setup to give you any good advice there.
You asked about the counter weights/springs...if the counter weights and springs are operating properly then all is good. If the weights are stuck in place and will not move then that could cause some issues due to the fact the timing can't advance as it should. As long as the weights move freely then that would not be your problem.
@@BruceCoggins Thank you very much friend, I will try to make a cover that I have the hole like you and from there I will confirm that it springs well into place, the ignition advance of this engine is 8º and is correct according to the lamp and the marks, once I check The distributor is going well, I will look at the carburetor with a vacuum gauge, (Rochester quadrajet 4 barrel carburetor) it only has 2 screws for the passage of gasoline, it does not have any for air, (the idle screw does that function) I have another engine like this and it runs perfect but even taking into account how the other one is, this one does not respond like the one that works well, I will try again and if everything is correct I will look at other things before looking for a new carburetor, greetings and thank you very much for your time
@@franciscotrujillo4961 even without knowing much about your combination, I would say that 8 degrees is a little low...that's probably what the tag in the engine compartment says but you have to remember that is for emissions purposes. I would bump the timing up to about 12 degrees (with the vacuum advance hose plugged) and then plug the vacuum advance hose into a manifold vacuum source. After you advance the timing readjust the idle speed then adjust the idle mixture screws...you can use a vacuum gauge or do it by ear depending on your experience but do one side at a time, turn it in (clockwise) slowly until the engine starts to stumble or the vacuum gauge drops then turn it out about a turn ...do the same for each mixture screw. You should feel a noticeable difference.
@@BruceCoggins It could be, because I have the other engine at 12º and I am about to do everything as it is in the manual, I put it at 8º, maybe that is the key, the distributor does not have a vacuum hose, so I did not tell him anything about that topic, but Thank you very much for your attention, regards
wouldn't it be easier to just use a TBI or later distributor?
Absolutely...TBI distributors are locked and phased right out of the factory. Most people do not know about that. I was showing the HEI because that is what most people already have.
I've been wanting to do a video with a TBI distributor. Another plus with a TBI distributor is the cap size. Lots of people say the HEI is too large and they don't have room to run one so the TBI unit would be perfect.
Why would the engine start having a mis in it,once you put timing on higher timing degrees but no mis lower timing degrees with the distributor locked out???
There are a few possibilities...
1- you may be over-advanced. Your engine may not require the amount of advance you are trying to run. Where is the timing set? You're saying there is a miss at "higher" timing and no miss at "lower" timing...what is the actual timing in degrees at "higher" and "lower"?
2- you could have a bad magnetic pickup. If it is the old original pickup, the wires might be brittle and about to break. I've also seen brand-new pickups come defective right out of the box. When you hook your timing light up, does it strobe consistently or does it strobe sometimes and then quit? That is a sign of a bad magnetic pickup.
3- Does this miss occur at idle or at a certain RPM? Does it happen just sitting in the driveway or while driving under a load?
4- Are you running a coil in the cap or an external coil? Is this just an HEI or are you running an aftermarket ignition box? Do you have the low-resistance bushing installed or the stock bushing (the button in the center of the cap)?
5- Did you remove the module or is it still being used?
Lastly, you may not be passed correctly. These are all important questions that need to be answered in order to give you an accurate diagnosis.
Lots of variables.
@BruceCoggins It's my friend 454 BBC Engine,the msd distributor is locked out and we put balancer on 36 degrees for total timing and put distributor on #1 cylinder but it's like the engine don't like the timing,it mis with timing up on 36 but he said it doesn't mis on lower ignition timing tho.
@@jamesquinnie7573 Depending on the cam and the rest of the combination, it may only want or need 32 degrees of timing. Hard to say without actually being there. Just keep adjusting it until it seems happy using a known good timing light. Don't set the timing by ear like so many car show guys talk about, LOL. 36 degrees of timing shouldn't be the cause of the miss though but never say never, lol. There has to be something else going on. Depending on which distributor he has, it could still have a bad magnetic pickup, or if he is running a module, that could also be the problem. If you have an infra-red heat gun, you can take the temperature of each header tube...assuming it has headers...and determine which cylinder(s) are having issues and work from there.
What is the intended use of this engine? Is it in a street car, race car, pickup truck? If it is a race car then I highly suggest putting it on a chassis dyno...you will know the answer most likely on the very first pull....saves a lot of time and takes the guess work out of the equation.
@BruceCoggins It's a race car, that's the same thing I said too. 36 timing shouldn't be a problem. He has a MSD 8551 Distributor in an I noticed rust on the wheel that the pickup works off of.
@@jamesquinnie7573 Ahhh the old 85551 unit (I have one in my garage)...yeah those always end up with either rust or they will turn green. Years ago we spoke to someone at MSD and they told us it was because we were in a humid environment and our cap wasn't vented...um, I live in the desert and the MSD cap had a vent...this wasn't on my car...I've had several friends with the same exact issue.
If you have access to a chassis dyno that's what I'd recommend. I had an issue with my race car years ago and a friend had a chassis dyno so I took it over to him and on the first pull, we found the problem that I had been chasing for almost the entire race season LOL. Timing should not be the cause of the miss so check everything...it could be a broken valve spring, you never know.
Why do I want to lock out the distributor?
I answered this question in the video but...long story short, if you have a race car with a large camshaft you may see some benefit to locking out the distributor/timing. Race engines are at wide open throttle most of the time so having your timing locked out might be advantageous. Every situation is different so you will need to experiment with this and see if this is the best way to go for your application.
With it locked out you can check timing at any rpm?
Yes, I very highly recommend checking it at idle as well as 3000 RPM or higher. You need to see if it stays the same or if it retards as the RPM increases. If it retards at higher RPM, you can readjust the idle timing to get the results you want or that the engines requires.
I bought a fast brand lockout kit we'll see how it works
how to external coil cap
Remove the original coil dust cover and remove the internal coil. Install an MSD 8401 modified dust cover with a coil tower post. Leave the insulator and the bushing in place. Now you can run an external coil.
@@BruceCoggins Thank you so much. Any benefit to using external coil?
I prefer external coils for a couple of reasons but mainly it's so I can run the coil that best fits the ignition system I choose to run. In my limited testing, it looks like you can get a higher output coil by using an external coil. I prefer the E-core type coil. Very high output. Heat is another reason to get rid of the internal coil although I have never tested how much heat they generate. I have another video where I did some rudimentary coil testing and the external type coils seem to generate a hotter spark.
@@BruceCoggins Thanks again. I need a new HEI coil for my sbc 406. The engine is set up with a crane hi 6 ignition box. Would the E-core type coil be a good choice for my set up?
I run a crane Hi-6 in my Camaro and it sports a 406. I'm using the Crane LX92 E-core coil which isn't available anymore but there are other brands with the same coil. Look at the MSD 8252.
Locking out a distributor is for the track and not the street. So your telling me all the R&D GM did on vacuum advance was a waste of time. Who needs 36* for an example at idle? Nobody.😂
I specifically said that if you have a stock engine in your daily driver grocery getter then I would not recommend locking out the distributor so...I also didn't say you shouldn't run vacuum advance. Obviously, running the vacuum advance on a stock engine is a good thing.
John miller. Did you not listen to any of this video?