The Most Controversial Move in Armwrestling
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- Опубліковано 28 тра 2024
- The King's Move is without a doubt one of the most controversial moves in armwrestling. Where did it actually originate and who are the armwrestlers that use it best?
All this and more in this video!
Thanks to @neilpickup-supernaturalstr3157 and @AWDerek for helping me with my research!
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Chapters:
00:00 The Forbidden Move
00:22 Early King's Move
02:35 Joszef Lovei
03:06 Pascal Girard
03:24 The Monster Under the Table
04:24 How did it get its name?
05:35 The Debate rages on
06:33 Ugly Arm Wrestling
07:08 Bone lock or not
08:09 The King's Move is Inevitable - Спорт
This was a fun episode to research, as I always wondered when the king's move first popped up in a competitive setting.
Many thanks to Neil Pickup and big man Derek Smith for helping me with the research. The video wouldn't be as complete without you.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this controversial technique!
Now get mad about shoulders crossing center table.
Press also relies on bone structure.
Maybe even more so.
Yo I didn’t know you were a UA-camr I thought you were only a guy on instagram who was uploading pictures of dudes with big forearms lmao 💀
@@farisadeel8947 Hah! Good to see there's some overlap between instagram and youtube. Hope you enjoy this content.
I've got no problem with it if the shoulders stay above table level. It's down to the rules and the refs to enforce.
It's not just the shoulders that shoul stay above the table.
You should not be allowed to go under the table, period.
@@michaeltrumph121what does that mean? Like where’s the line at that point?
@@themicahmicah1845
They both should stay up
rules could be stupid too, hope we don't have stupid rules
@@michaeltrumph121 both of what? I’m asking where do you draw the line for going under the table, the waist? The torso?
Kings move is in a good place right now, EvsW rule set limitation made it somewhat less overpowered but still viable way of fighting.
Now get mad about shoulders crossing center table.
What’s EvW rule on this?
@@ELVIS1975T its not allowed to go shoulder under the Line of the table when defending in open arm toproll. But it Is allowed in offense since you are not using limits of your annatomy for leverage. Basically you Can use Kings move but there Is a limit how low you Can Dip down before its ruled a foul.
@@karakondzula1388 THANKS!
To me, there's a subtle, but meaningful difference between an open toproll and the "King's Move".
An open toproll, (to me), is when a toproller lets their hand be outside of their shoulder, and when their elbow angle opens beyond 90 degrees.
The "King's Move", (to me), is a "type" of open top roll. The thing that differentiates it, (for me), however, is two criteria that have to be met.
1: The arm has to reach the end of the armwrestler's range of motion, where there is a sort of "physical lock". The "openness" may vary between athletes.
2: The armwrestler has to start pivoting off their humerus bone, i.e. dropping below the table where their upper arm declines below the elbow pad at a negative angle.
I'm not going to argue for or against the move. I just think it's good to define things, since I see people constantly mistake open top rolls for the "King's Move".
Yeah we're at the point now where the baby is being thrown out with the bathwater. Every time anyone does an open top roll people are shouting "kingsmove!!!!1" or spamming it in the comments. I seem to recall a particular Aussy shouting "Levan is in a kingsmove!" lol
This is how the discussion around the move should be held - questioning rules instead of armwrestlers 'honor' or whatnot.
Just as game mechanics determine how a game is played, rules in sports create a framework of legality. Inevitably athletes will find spots within that framework where they can succeed and these places often deviate heavily from what people thought the sport was and should be.
The addition of the humerus bone angle in losing position to the rule set is a good one in my opinion. The King's move stays a viable option but doesn't allow scenarios where one or even both athletes are just hanging off the table. Which is ridiculous to look at tbh
exactly
The fact that people who seem to actively follow the sport blame MMT instead of WAL is so weird to me.
@@cwolf208 TRUE!
if a foul isn't called you ain't foulin'.
if you dont have a joint lock you can still kings move, kings moves relies on your bodies supination bone lock, the elbow lock is optional, but your hand is fully supinated in a tradtional kings move, it's your sideways "dive under the table" which makes you pronate your entire arm thats stops the hit, if your hand was pronated in a kings move you would get drilled to the pad. To summarize, in a kings move you are not pronation through the hand, but through the entire frame of you body, thats why kings move requires your inside elbow to be on the pad, Michaels kings move is basically a open toproll with a bone lock, it is different to a traditional kings
Sometimes he does exactly what you described though
The thing with Michael is that it seems to me the main reason he uses it (other than having no center table strength due to his injuries) is to achieve height, that's why he goes so low sometimes
Long live the King's move. 🏆
I'm fine with the move if there is extra attention given to the elbows because sometimes the elbows are pointing to the side and the bicep is on the pad like at 3:45 which shouldn't be allowed imo
What about when you're hitting with side pressure and your elbow is pointing to the side when the opponent is inches from the pad?
A regulation sized foot area with lines on the ground and requiring one foot to be inside the area at all times would allow it to still be used, but require the arm wrestler to support some of their own body weight while using it.
Thank you for sharing this video!🙏
You are most welcome!
Thank you for this nuanced view!
Another awesome and super informative video! Thank you AH!
You're very welcome, Troy! I know I haven't had a lot of time lately and I appreciate your support despite that!
The Kings move can be achieved by novice pullers.
If the novice puller is guided in how to execute this, there is no need for "bone lock".
Bone lock can't be ruled out completely, done sometimes that's what the move might end up ,when the defence fails.
The decline-humerus-rule seems to be good way to regulate the kings move. Sadly the rule is very rarely enforced unless the kings move is done very very low.
I never imagined a title like this to a video ....yet here I am. just wow. what a time to be young
this move is legit but needs some revision like in certain scenario when someone is going to kings move, his opponent might have to pull his opponents body weight instead of his arm and thats unfair in my eyes. i think the rules should be like this that the shoulder of the arm wrestler at all time must be above table line not under, and we also saw a smaller pads implemented which automatically forces an armwreslter to fight near and above the table not from under the table. otherwise the more a player can get away from table and below the more unfair advantages he get over his opponent.
The desperate move has to be banned from the sport as soon as possible. This is a shame for the whole armwrestling.
Great job on the Video ! people are getting to know this sport from the inside vieuwing this content ! (and hopefully see that there is a lot to know about "arm fight" ) the real question is ! will MMT use the "Kingsmove" now he has a much more ROM !
keep this up ! AH
2:50 arrrhhhh !! it hurts
A Bone lock helps, but it's not mechanically the main reason that the move is effective. It can be performed without a bone lock too if you're technically proficient.
It should be renamed the peasant's move. Reserved for the desperate and undignified arm wrestler. Any chump with a semi-extended elbow joint can keep his hand from the pad if he uses his elbow as the pivot point and lowers his upper arm below the level of the table.
Shoulder below table only on attacking position is already a decent rule change that engin is enforcing at his events, eventually king move will be curated down to very specific situation.
Refs will also get better at recognizing and calling out rule breaks.
king move is here to stay but it cannot stay as it is or was, its pretty disgusting for a lot of reasons.
to me its all about wether a tournament allow it or not, i dont mind seeing a king move here or there, i just dont want every single tittle match to be who has the better king move.
You dont need a bone lock to kings move. Ive seen It from some begginers in competition. At Arnolds Europe I saw a Bulgarian kid doing a kings move and win several matches with It.
kings move is only a problem with wal rules, rn i think its in a good spot.
That X-ray of Todd’s elbow joint is crazy as hell.
It really is! The man is kind of a medical marvel.
I've got no problem with it, within reason (i.e shoulder joint parallel with or above table.) Both my arms are different, and my left arm is fairly standard but my right, which has less bicep tightness towards the fully bent in position but more endurance, has a mean kingsmove. The twist being, both my arms not only bend straight, but beyond straight!
It should be a loss if a shoulder goes below table height or if the arm completely straightens.
Great video
The shoulder above table rule needs to be across the board.
6:23 Take a still image of that and put it in the encyclopedia under Arm wrestling.
Personally, i love the move! Since I am a flop presser, im just happy if they try to do it to me 😂
We all love a queen's move !
Well, queen is the strongest in chess. Just like in arm wrestling, the hardest to get past by.
@@quiet216 Funnily enough I just rage quit a chess game, it was my fault for blundering though!
@@MuscleBandit 😂.. you'll get 'em the next time
Agreed
Kings move is NO more a desperation/cheap move after Engin introduced the "Humerus/Triceps rules"
People should stop crying about it ..
I can’t stand the move. It’s extremely unfair to burn out an opponent while you site there with your arm straight. It’s a joke
Oh boy here we go! 💪🏻
I think it should be allowed, but the elbow pads needs to be 7x7", and not 7x9", and it shouldn't be allowed for the top of the shoulder to go below the top of the elbow pad.
If it's ok for everyone to do it then it's fair. I really don't see why people bitch about it. It's because under the table Michael made it hated, if Devon did it before todd snd was famous for it then people would love it. It's that simple. It's not the move, it's who made it famous.
it's not just about that..the ridiculousness is obvious when you can see that the guy would have no chance without hanging off the table.. I would have hated it even if John did it..
As for everyone being allowed to do it that's true but you could say that about, say, squeezing lemon juice into the opponent's eye..it still wouldn't belong in arm wrestling :D
@@karuonline3294 Dude this is ridiculous, lemon juice? Tell me what it wrong with the kings move? Hanging off the table? How is it different to any other move? You are totally wrong, if john did it it would seem like a goat move. Just think about it, it's using your arm, it's no different to any other move, arm wrestling is richer for it, it's beatable, if everyone did it then no one would bitch about it. It is 100% hated because under the table made it famous. I used to hate mmt, but the kings move is just another move. Actually tell me what's wrong with it. How it worse thana flopped wrist press? That's a desperation move too if you want to call it that.
@@snoutysnouterson no, it wouldn't seem like the GOAT move at all.. definitely not to me and I'm a big fan of John's..as to what's wrong with the move..read through the comments section..a couple of guys have explained it better than I ever could..if you take issuue with specific points madee by them, let's talk about those
And the lemon juice bit was to illustrate the fact that simply because everyone's allowed to do it doesn't mean the move belongs in arm wrestling..heck, even Engin made a video explaining why it sucks.. check it out
Is shoulder are above the table it’s fine but on the Devon vs mmt match that wouldn’t be allowed since his shoulders were under
Cute when they play hide and seek under the table.
😅
I personally kindof like it in gus like devon and denis. Thwy dont completely rely on it but can use it. Tod on the ither hand only uses the kings move which is when i dont like it.
Who is that match with Paul Linn against? Is that MMT? The one that you posted the teaser of?
I don't think that's either of them
Its not a valid move. The reason people do it is because they lack the strength to compete. Falling to a kings move should be classed as a loss.
Crazy George is a beast with that move.
Kings move is oinda brillient if you bend your arm an try to fource yourself open youll find your sticking point an every1s stickin point verys some people are strong fully curld others are better semi open it gives people who are the latter a better chance at back pressure, i think its a great ultility but it depends how its used an i think if your arm gos straight juring it then it should count as a pin, bone locks are somethin else an i think takin advantage of it is alitle qustinable but ultimatly you can negate it like devon did to micheal he made it impossable for him to acces it
The most hated part of this move is the bone lock. It's basically a crippled arm, beating a healthy arm
I see it like this, if i cant kings move (rarely do, though i wanna get better at it) then thats fine, but at the same time can you make competitons where everyone has to say hook, or top-roll? Probably not so why the hell is this move scrutinized?
11-11-23 devon king move vs denis king move 💪
6:22 omg thats something lmao XD
Haha yea! For sure a top tier match.
I think that the fact that the move is still beatable, it makes sense to allow it.
absolutely love seeing crazy george
I have seen some matches where the kings move becomes a straight arm with no bend at the elbow at all and the entire arm is one straight lever being held up by the edge of the table. I think this is bs when it gets to that stage.
I think if you make a video on the king's move you should first of all clarify the humerus rule. Because it is the point where the king's move becomes a foul
Can you go over the Queen's move?
If you can't win normally then 'King' you way out of a loss.
michael "under the table" todd
le king move avec un bras droit sans cale et qui reste sur le pad ne pose pas de probleme , ce qui est gênant c 'est l'usage du king move pour tricher , lorsque tu as une bras avec un angle de 30 ° et que le coude quitte le pad en permanence , les regles ne sont plus les mêmes pour les deux compétiteurs
There's king's move for straight arms too. Just jam your arm against the edge and. Pray u don't break it or tear your bicep
Why isn't Cyplenkov included in the video?
I showed some clips of him king's moving. Even ended the video with one.
Denis never focussed on the KM and has never mentioned using one himself, so I figured there were more relevant people who deserved the spotlight.
@@armhistorian Really? 😅 I didn't even notice.
The reason why I'd want him in is because I feel like there is a big subset of Cyplenkov fans that absolutely despise people like Devon or Todd for king's moving without noticing Denis do it himself.
Also because of Denis saying real armwrestling should be held on the inside but defending on the very outside himself as well.
If kings move and javalin press were both legal they would counter each other out of competition.
Ok but have you ever tried a kings move? If fucking scary as hell. If a guy has the frame to pull it off and the shoulder stays above the elbow it’s fair game
It's ok to use "the kingsmove" long as you don't go below the table when you use it imo.
There should be a simple rule that would somewhat fix the king's move, shoulder should never go below the pad height, as long as your shoulder is above the pad enjoy doing any variation of king's move...
Your body shouldn't go down at all
There is such a rule in East v West
@@michaeltrumph121 I guess you want a lot of broken arms.
@@cwolf208
Why would arms break ?
It's a great move..if you want to make arm wrestling more like a tug of war
It is nicknamed "pulling" for a reason, I guess.
@@armhistorian yeah.
it's all good as long as you "pull" while standing up :)
Kings Move = Butt Scooting in BJJ.
I feel attacked
you forgot to mention the difference between shoulder above the table and below the table. plus, shoulder going below table in a loosing position is not kingsmove anymore, it's a foul!.. you are mixing the two. this will put on more confusion
I don't think Bob Brown despises or goes against the kings move since he uses his own version of it and have been for a few years now, he has a POV of a fair and clear and concise way of describing what is and isn't a legal kings move
Pretty simple fix. Rules need to state both shoulders have to be above the table. It's the peekaboo tug of war that looks stupid.
Not forbidden.. Just most unrespected move and understand
His name is Michael Toddler!
Bone lock and limited elbow mobility isn't acquired directly by armwrestling.
There are many veteran armwrestlers that can easily straighten, or nearly straighten their arms - proper armwrestling techniques don't really cause the elbow damage necessary to get very tight elbow lock.
Larratt and Todd both developed gigantic elbow calcifications after years of abusing their elbows through excessive side pressure and constant presses (which btw they often also do through bone lock), both of which were often done just on the verge of being foul or even being uncalled fouls.
Brzenk doesn't have such bone lock, Fisher doesn't and even Cvetan Gashevski who uses extremely open toproll doesn't have such bone-lock.
It's obvious for shitheads using it that they will defend it as _real armwrestling_ because you literally either have to brake their arms or get complete wrist control to win, and when first one is nearly impossible in normal match and second one is extremely hard, because they get pronation and lift (bicep pull) for free.
It's a literal cheating similar to pressing hand down with your shoulder, but rule sets and often refs are often too stupid to prevent it.
Easiest way of completely getting rid of it would be just asking competitors to straighten their arm and applying shoulder below X-level accordingly to their mobility.
It would be more complicated, but it would get rid of the biggest cancer that sport has.
I don't even think Devon can straighten his arm.
6:23 wtf. at this point it is not armwresling
I think the King's move is fine as long as you're not dropping below the pad. WAL let guys do a lot more than other leagues and they had a bigger pad.
How can you do against a move where their whore arm is bent straight and using their weight as leverage.
Like a seesaw where you’re pushing down 250 lbs weight
The name has evolved over time to desperation move, then to queens move and finally queer move.
I love Michael Todd's style of arm wrestling. When he leans back and catches a slight hook, then sllllloooooowwwwwllllllyyyyy climbs his fingers into position, it's a thing of beauty.
Monster Todd and Devon Larratt's favorite move!
Awesome video Mr Arm Historian 💪 I never knew it went back that far. It's definitely tough to beat for most arm wrestlers but it is beatable. Sometimes it can make for a boring match though lol
The kingsmove is for weaklings that can't get strong in a normal arm wrestling position so they use that. Unless they have both battled out and got nothing else in the tank I could understand but to drop down and kingsmove from the start us a pussy move. Kinda like kicking someone in the nuts in a fist fight.
Münster Michael Venom Wehry Jean Pierre Toad.
You Spelt "Queens Move" Wrong.
Awesome video! Hail to King George 💪
How is it called the king's move when you're under the table like a peasant?
The sissy move
It's a tug-of-war contast at that point... should be illegal in the strap.
THE '' KINGS MOVE'' HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A LONG TIME, BUT THE KINGS MOVE IS NOT NECESSARY WITHOUT THE PRESENT OF BACK PRESSURE. BACK IN THE 70-80 BACK PRESSURE WAS NOT A BIG THING THUS THERE WAS HARDLY EVER A KINGS MOVE GOING ON , THEN BACK PRESSURE ENTERED THE GAME THE WEAKER GUYS COULD NOT HANDLE THE BACK PRESSURE THUS COME THE DEPEREATION MOVE CALL THE KINGS MOVE, ITS WEAKER MANS MOVE ONLY THE WEAKER PERSON WILL USE IT .....
MMT ruined the kings move because it’s all he knew how to do and he used in the most pathetic way.
Devon kings moved Prudnik round 1 and destroyed prudniks wrist for the rest of the match. Gassed John out completely in Dubai. It’s a lethal cheap move! I personally never liked it. I had someone kings move me in practice and it’s brutal to fight against. Not a fan lol
The kings move is not hard to beat if you have a superior wrist. You just have to be patient and climber in the center and you are in no threat of being pinned because the opponent is so open.
@@KevinLuWX it’s just the draining aspect. Next round you will be depleted and your opponent will take control.
@@quiet216 Not if you act correctly, if you can't pin your opponent easily without losing your hand while in they are in a kings move, immediately go back to center, climb untill you have the high ground and press. I like the kings move because it forces you to be smart if you want to beat it, it's like an ati dumb people move
Laughs in flop press
@@quiet216 Absolutely not. If you deal with it correctly it’s not draining at all. The opponent’s arm gasses out faster when pulling in such open angle.
forbidden !? , so using your whole body in an ARM wrestling match is perfectly fine , but don't do this !!!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Coward desperation move.
nah, anyone who loses to the kings move just has bad table iq, just toproll sideways and constantly hit, after each hit, climb higher, considering its a defensive kings move, the guy who is standing up will have the climb advantage, after you have achieved significant climb, start to supinate you hand, a kings move requires wrist kickback, so supination forces the match inside, while supinating your hand, bring your shoulder forwards and engage a press. Or you don't even need to supinate, if your flop press is good enough, simply climb a good amount and throw your shoulder while giving up your cup.
@@yi-vanstudenov464 You're an ignorant covid era kid that just learned about Arm wrestling. Imagine saying anyone that loses to the kings move has bad table iq and in theory you yourself know how to defeat it easily. You're embarrassing yourself, seriously shut up.
@@yi-vanstudenov464 exactly, if you turn the match into a hook when the opponent is stretched on the other side of the table is absolutely over immediately lol. Sometimes it's not possible tho, the best option usually is to climb over a lot and then press
I used to think Todd was a piece of shit, that is until I watched his podcast. He seems to be a nice guy.
Yea. He's aight usually
BTW 1996 is not by far earliest open toproll/kings move.
Check the match between Dave Patton vs John Brzenk in 1989 :
ua-cam.com/video/zsQT8DWrKXQ/v-deo.html
That's not quite the modern King's move but you're right that it sure looks like the predecessor.
@@cwolf208 well it is the same matter the "looks" it's pretty visibly dependent on pronator pressure to stop pins. Är a kings mover you never want side pressure nor bone locks to counter the opponents. What Patton does there is a perfect school book example how to do kings move without wrecking your atm.
The cowards move.
This video left out a lot of the specifics of the drama behind the king's move.
MMT was absolutely guilty of perpetual elbow fouls in the WAL. He would often have the point of his elbow 2 inches above the pad, using his tricep as his arm's fulcrum. Talk about being impossible to climb. Talk about leverage. And even worse he would pull his elbow off the back of the pad, making his forearm his arm's fulcrum. This allows him to engage his bone lock sooner, but more gradually. It also drastically reduces the amount of pain and pressure on his elbow, and makes it sorta like you have to break his forearm (not just his elbow joint) to pin him.
This is what really created the drama behind the king's move. Even casuals that really didn't know what they were looking at, but knew something was wrong, were undoubtedly mad because of this.
Devon often used his star power to get people on board with the sport adopting and embracing the king's move. But he'd do it in questionable ways. When people would voice concerns about MMT's blatant cheating via elbow fouls, Devon would pretend as if they just hate MMT as a person and/or wanted any open toproll or variation of the king's move banned. He made the people pointing a finger at obvious cheating out to look like fools, all because he himself wanted to use the king's move in competition, and also wants to push his progressive views on the sport (as he knows he can convince thousands with one video).
If it wasn't for this disingenuous strawman against a number of people being made out to be king's move haters, we could have had a far more logical discussion on the legality of the move and adopted some more sensible rules (like EvW and KoTT did) a lot sooner.
Yea, I could have made the video an hour long and go over every incident or intricacy on the King's Move but that would mean it would take me several months to make it. Don't get me wrong, I would love to be able to do that but it simply isn't viable in my current situation. I can't afford to spend that much time on this channel.
I hope you and others still got something out of it and still found it somewhat interesting. Maybe this video can serve as a good jumping off point for people who want to do their own research and look more into the details.
Who knows, if the channel ever would get to a point where it would actually make financial sense to put more time into it, I will certainly revisit this topic.
Thanks for joining the conversation, my man.
@armhistorian it was a good video I didn't mean it like that 👍
Great comment. Thanks!
@@armhistorian the efforts are appreciated
Great comment. And yes, my bone of contention (pun!) has always been the necessity for the elbow to remain firmly planted on the pad. MMT’s elbow was floating away like a helium balloon on so many occasions, I have no idea why the refs weren’t fouling him immediately.
It's a good move. But against a really strong guy like Denis, he could break your arm. That's why i don't prefer the king's move.
The one thing that was missing from the video: Denis King's moving.
He's done it several times.
@@HorstEwaldi thought i saw Denis in the vid
@@karuonline3294 I could blame on my eyesight but I probably just didn't pay enough attention 😅
AWH told me Denis was the in the video
@@HorstEwald Well, there's a lot of content and limited time/attention span.. can't say I blame ya
Now get mad about shoulders crossing center table.
Wait, who got mad?
The egg came first 😉
The king's move should be completely banned. The only ones supporting it are devons fangirls because devon has won a lot of his heavy weight matches using kings move. Its impossible to pin down the arm if it has straightened out and hanging on a pad. That technically means that the opponent has to now lift your whole body through his arm. This is such a foul move. And its a false statement that only veterans can use this move. Khaled jashell used this move against schoolboy while having only a little arm wrestling experience
Basically we learnt nothing new here
Which is in stark contrast to this very enlightening and thoughtful comment.
@@armhistorian if it makes you feel better, you usually put out great content, but this one was a dud. No shame, you're still better than, 78% of other arm wrestling channels.
@@jckdnls9292 That's fair. Maybe your knowledge on this particular subject is also greater than on other subjects I've covered.