Rita Steblin was a lovely person, a passionate researcher, and a wealth of information. Her work has inspired countless musicians and music lovers. She is sorely missed.
Thank you for this most interesting report.👍👍👍 Indeed, the tragical love of one of the most fascinating composers of the world should not be forgotten.😉
I’m so greatful for this! Beethoven is my favorite composer and Immortal Beloved is my favorite movie! I know the script by heart from watching it time and again!🥰❤️
I am grateful too ! Beethoven is my favorite composer too, the performance of Gary oldman in immortal beloved is very impressive. The next thing I want to try, is to listen the music from beethoven according to the time periods where he met josephine in prague !
This was very well done. So intriguing. You're a great interviewer and more importantly, a listener. You let Ms. Steblin speak her thoughts. She was lovely to listen to as well. Maybe that's why Beethoven had such a temper... he wanted something he could never have. And his hearing loss, I'm sure.
Ultimately, the only ones who truly know are Ludwig van Beethoven himself, the woman who is his immortal beloved, perhaps those whom either told, and ultimately God. I felt it is none of our business to know who she is and Beethoven would probably tell us to focus on our own troubles, as he is now, I hope, in Paradise with the Lord and is at peace now.
This topic does open a very intimate window into his life. So does reading his Heiligenstadt Testament. However, these very personal letters - which he kept in his drawer for years, knowing they'd be discovered upon his death - give us indispensable insight into some of the motivations behind his life and work.
@@kenkimmiesanimalvideos7667 All the same, knowing when I die, people will find out that I truly love my ex still though I still refuse to return to him, in spite of him also wanting to reconcile. What would that achieve? Nothing. The same applies with Beethoven. We may understand, sympathize, or learn from his sins and mistakes - but that's all we can do. Otherwise, privacy should be respected. I like that some people preserve their right for peaceful privacy even in death.
I beg to differ. For the “common folk” like most of us, it wouldn’t really matter to the world at large BUT to know the story behind this most important and arguably one of the most beautiful pieces of music by not arguably, but absolutely one of the most talented musical geniuses in the history of the world…..Beethoven…… it absolutely matters!
Thank you so much for having this woman who’s a genius and such a pleasure to listen too as well. my son brought this video to my attention because he knew how fascinating I would find it! I introduced all of my children to classical music in the womb (via all the Baby Eisenstein videos back in the late 1990’s and take great pleasure in the fact that all three have continued into adulthood to sponsor the arts, as do I of course). I’ve got to find this book she mentions in the beginning…. I hope someone does the DNA testing! I didn’t realize they sell gravesites?? I mean gravesites that have people in them? Is this a common practice? I’ve never heard of this in America.
There are many contenders for the honor. I don't personally agree with Steblin. She focused SOLELY on Josephine, without considering anyone else. I would suggest reading the books of Maynard Solomon and Dr. Susan Lund: they both discuss why Josephine couldn't possibly have been the IB. They both believe strongly that it was Antonie Brentano, and they give their reasons why. They both did exhaustive research to prove their premise. There are many other historians who believe this as well. I personally find their arguments very compelling.
Due to time constraints, we edited out 2/3 of the interview - this may have led to the perception that Dr. Steblin was solely focused on Josephine. Dr. Steblin’s research is referenced as fact by the Beethoven Museum in Vienna and the Beethovenhaus Bonn. For a more detailed picture, I recommend reading her paper: www.academia.edu/38538241/_Auf_diese_Art_mit_A_geht_alles_zu_Grunde_A_New_Look_at_Beethoven_s_Diary_Entry_and_the_Immortal_Beloved_in_Bonner_Beethoven_Studien_6_2007_147_180
@@DanielAdamMaltz I feel strongly that the DNA of Minona's bones lies the answer. They have come so far the past few years with DNA research.....it would uncover and solve this incredible mystery.
No kidding. I just watched Immortal Beloved last night and assumed all of it was made up just to give it the Citizen Kane plot. I thought it was just pure fiction wrapped around some real historical touchstones like Amadeus. So I am really surprised to find out this was much more rooted in some reality.
Yes, the movie took some very significant liberties (especially with its conclusions) but it is rooted in reality. Plus, Gary Oldman was a very convincing Beethoven!
It seems most probable that Beethoven’s letters to his immortal beloved were ones of fiction and that he wrote them for posterity. He knew his fame would continue long after his death and although he had failed in love, nevertheless he certainly could have reasoned that if he was counted as a great composer without a great love of his life, it could discolour the greatness of his music and lessen the pleasure, people received from it. Hence this could very well have been the reason why he invented the story of his immortal beloved. But also the invention itself could have contributed to his life,in way, like a great actor, when playing a role and acquires the characteristics of the character when playing the part. Maybe this enhanced his life by imagining this perfect love. Without these letters we would perhaps believe him to be one without the capacity to love, or love in way which he expresses so ardently in the letters. Hence the reason for the letters. Maybe he is trying to convince us from the grave.
That's an interesting and romantic perspective; however, it isn't supported by scholarly research. For example, the Beethoven Houses in both Bonn and Vienna accept Dr. Steblin's research.
@@DanielAdamMaltz Yes it’s difficult to bet on a certainty, isn’t it, when you’re not certain. I certainly wouldn’t bet half my kingdom that I’m right. But also I wouldn’t be completely surprised if I wasn’t wrong. Ah where would we be without life’s little mysteries,that give some of us interesting alternate postulations and speculations. I believe in God which to me is a certainty that I would bet my kingdom on, however there are many great scholars who disagree with the likes of me. And because of this I don’t necessarily hang my hat on what the scholarly research might be. 😊🍀👍
I definitely consider this a possibility but not a probability. Another possibility is someone, like Josephine, had his affection but it was not necessarily returned by her. Many of us have loved those who don't love us back. For Beethoven that seemed to happen a lot. If only we had a letter from this woman written to him.
Evidence points out that a lot of drafts and letters (and art) from Josephine (and my guess also Beethoven) have been distroyed by the aristocratic family and their friends in commission of them. They controled every move Josephine made, so think about that. How do you think things would work out in a love situation which is highly infortunate during these ages. It was all different then. Evidence already showed there have been those who have twisted the truth in command of the family. This was in order to hold back the rumers and ideas about this highly unfortunate situation for the aristocracy, in particular the family.
Beethoven was very private with his private life and proof of that is that even though the Immortal Beloved letters were found, nowhere was a note or something were he had put the actual name of the lucky girl in something like "...forever yours, as you'll ever be forever mine. The blessing of Eros and Aphrodite over us will make us to find each other again. May the muses take the music of your Ludwig to you and the love and kisses of my (true name of the inmortal beloved here) be brought by Aphrodites' doves to me..." Or he could have told any of his initmate friends or his own brothers, but there's no record of it. And the theory of Minona though appealing I have to disagree. Beethoven had, apparently, high moral standards. So fathering a child out of wedlock with an already married female it was not his style. Yeah he liked to flirt now and then, I mean he was not made out of stone, but that was it, just flirts. He despised that kind of behaviour and always criticised it (just the letters of him to his lawyer about Karl custody where he criticised the mother to be of low morale and not a good example for his nephew and he wanted that Karl grew up as a person of high moral and ethics, like him. Also he criticise his brother Johann's wife of being of low morale and having an illegitimate child). So, based on this,at least for me, it would be so difficult to believe the theory of Beethoven having an affair with Josephine and having a child because that would be against the principles he believed in, and he was not a double-faced man.
it does sound a little like she draws a conclusion and works backwards from that, like a cryptozoologist trying to justify Bigfoot, but the evidence is compelling nonetheless.
Dr. Steblin's research is referenced as fact by the Beethoven Museum in Vienna and the Beethovenhaus Bonn. We edited out 2/3 of the interview, due to episode-length time constraints, and I'm very sad if the edits made her come across as biased. She was certainly no Bigfoot-style "researcher." For more detail and clarification, here's an an article Dr. Steblin wrote about the Immortal Beloved: www.academia.edu/38538241/_Auf_diese_Art_mit_A_geht_alles_zu_Grunde_A_New_Look_at_Beethoven_s_Diary_Entry_and_the_Immortal_Beloved_in_Bonner_Beethoven_Studien_6_2007_147_180
Dr. Steblin shows examples from the source documents and discusses the topic more in depth here: www.academia.edu/38538241/_Auf_diese_Art_mit_A_geht_alles_zu_Grunde_A_New_Look_at_Beethoven_s_Diary_Entry_and_the_Immortal_Beloved_in_Bonner_Beethoven_Studien_6_2007_147_180.
According to Dr. Susan Lund, LvB did have a child - with Antonie Brentano. Her final child, a son born just months after the "Immortal Beloved" letter, was denounced by Antonie's own husband, who clearly told family members the child wasn't his. The movie was completely false - Beethoven's relationship with Johanna was one of hatred. He would never have slept with her, so Karl could never have been his. Read the books by Dr. Susan Lund; she has been writing about this for over 30 years; her research is clear, concise and meticulous.
If Dr. Lund's research is to be believed, yes, he had a son with Antonie Brentano. If you believe Steblin, he had a daughter with Josephine who was musical. But there's no real proof, just an intriguing mystery.
The Moonlight Sonata is dedicated to Julie Giuccardi and is certainly a very moving piece; however, we cannot draw conclusions based on that alone. At 3:32, Dr. Steblin explains that the theory about Julie Guicciardi came from an unsubstantiated claim by Anton Schindler.
@@DanielAdamMaltz It’s not based on the Moonlight alone. We have more information about the relationship between Ludwig and Julie. And Schindler’s opinion should have never been rejected just because Julie’s name wasn’t in the letter. Nobody knew facts about Ludwig’s life better than Schindler.
@@DanielAdamMaltz Should we give so much credit for this letter, knowing that Beethoven was such an emotional person? So temperamental, so moody!!! Even if Beethoven wrote that there was an immortal beloved, it might not have been the truth. And notice that he didn’t even send this letter. In my point of view, Beethoven was completely devoted for all the girls he fell in love with, and was unfairly rejected by all of them.
@@DanielAdamMaltz Your video is extremely interesting. I watched it twice. Thank you very much for it. Josephine might have been the Immortal Beloved. It’s a possibility. But I just think that in order to prove her theory, Dr. Steblin focused only on Josephine. I continue to believe that the Moonlight Sonata is a strong indication that Julie Guicciardi was the woman Beethoven loved more deeply.
@@Omar92696 I appreciate your views and am glad you found the interview interesting. While Anton Schindler was afforded a special place in Beethoven’s inner circle, we know now that Schindler exaggerated his relationship with Beethoven and also falsified entries in and removed many pages from Beethoven’s conversation books. Unfortunately, he will always be a damaged source. He never sent the Immortal Beloved letter, but he also didn't send the Heiligenstadt Testament - another letter that details an integral part of Beethoven's mind. Regarding Dr. Steblin's perceived focus on Josephine: To get a fuller understanding of her research on the other candidates, I highly recommend reading her research paper: www.academia.edu/38538241/_Auf_diese_Art_mit_A_geht_alles_zu_Grunde_A_New_Look_at_Beethoven_s_Diary_Entry_and_the_Immortal_Beloved_in_Bonner_Beethoven_Studien_6_2007_147_180
Rita Steblin was a lovely person, a passionate researcher, and a wealth of information. Her work has inspired countless musicians and music lovers. She is sorely missed.
Thank you for this most interesting report.👍👍👍 Indeed, the tragical love of one of the most fascinating composers of the world should not be forgotten.😉
I’m so greatful for this! Beethoven is my favorite composer and Immortal Beloved is my favorite movie! I know the script by heart from watching it time and again!🥰❤️
I am grateful too ! Beethoven is my favorite composer too, the performance of Gary oldman in immortal beloved is very impressive. The next thing I want to try, is to listen the music from beethoven according to the time periods where he met josephine in prague !
This was very well done. So intriguing. You're a great interviewer and more importantly, a listener. You let Ms. Steblin speak her thoughts. She was lovely to listen to as well. Maybe that's why Beethoven had such a temper... he wanted something he could never have. And his hearing loss, I'm sure.
Ultimately, the only ones who truly know are Ludwig van Beethoven himself, the woman who is his immortal beloved, perhaps those whom either told, and ultimately God. I felt it is none of our business to know who she is and Beethoven would probably tell us to focus on our own troubles, as he is now, I hope, in Paradise with the Lord and is at peace now.
This topic does open a very intimate window into his life. So does reading his Heiligenstadt Testament. However, these very personal letters - which he kept in his drawer for years, knowing they'd be discovered upon his death - give us indispensable insight into some of the motivations behind his life and work.
@@DanielAdamMaltz Very well said! I LOVE and ADORE Beethoven and the more I can know about him and his life, the better. 💙
@@kenkimmiesanimalvideos7667 All the same, knowing when I die, people will find out that I truly love my ex still though I still refuse to return to him, in spite of him also wanting to reconcile. What would that achieve? Nothing. The same applies with Beethoven. We may understand, sympathize, or learn from his sins and mistakes - but that's all we can do. Otherwise, privacy should be respected. I like that some people preserve their right for peaceful privacy even in death.
I beg to differ. For the “common folk” like most of us, it wouldn’t really matter
to the world at large BUT to know the story behind this most important and arguably one of the most beautiful pieces of music by not arguably, but absolutely one of the most talented musical geniuses in the history of the world…..Beethoven…… it absolutely matters!
Thank you so much for having this woman who’s a genius and such a pleasure to listen too as well. my son brought this video to my attention because he knew how fascinating I would find it! I introduced all of my children to classical music in the womb (via all the Baby Eisenstein videos back in the late 1990’s and take great pleasure in the fact that all three have continued into adulthood to sponsor the arts, as do I of course). I’ve got to find this book she mentions in the beginning…. I hope someone does the DNA testing! I didn’t realize they sell gravesites?? I mean gravesites that have people in them? Is this a common practice? I’ve never heard of this in America.
There are many contenders for the honor. I don't personally agree with Steblin. She focused SOLELY on Josephine, without considering anyone else. I would suggest reading the books of Maynard Solomon and Dr. Susan Lund: they both discuss why Josephine couldn't possibly have been the IB. They both believe strongly that it was Antonie Brentano, and they give their reasons why. They both did exhaustive research to prove their premise. There are many other historians who believe this as well. I personally find their arguments very compelling.
Due to time constraints, we edited out 2/3 of the interview - this may have led to the perception that Dr. Steblin was solely focused on Josephine. Dr. Steblin’s research is referenced as fact by the Beethoven Museum in Vienna and the Beethovenhaus Bonn. For a more detailed picture, I recommend reading her paper: www.academia.edu/38538241/_Auf_diese_Art_mit_A_geht_alles_zu_Grunde_A_New_Look_at_Beethoven_s_Diary_Entry_and_the_Immortal_Beloved_in_Bonner_Beethoven_Studien_6_2007_147_180
@@DanielAdamMaltz I feel strongly that the DNA of Minona's bones lies the answer. They have come so far the past few years with DNA research.....it would uncover and solve this incredible mystery.
No kidding. I just watched Immortal Beloved last night and assumed all of it was made up just to give it the Citizen Kane plot. I thought it was just pure fiction wrapped around some real historical touchstones like Amadeus. So I am really surprised to find out this was much more rooted in some reality.
Yes, the movie took some very significant liberties (especially with its conclusions) but it is rooted in reality. Plus, Gary Oldman was a very convincing Beethoven!
Thank you. ♥️
I always assumed it was his muse and that he felt that he hadn’t been given any inspiration recently
It seems most probable that Beethoven’s letters to his immortal beloved were ones of fiction and that he wrote them for posterity.
He knew his fame would continue long after his death and although he had failed in love, nevertheless he certainly could have reasoned that if he was counted as a great composer without a great love of his life, it could discolour the greatness of his music and lessen the pleasure, people received from it.
Hence this could very well have been the reason why he invented the story of his immortal beloved.
But also the invention itself could have contributed to his life,in way, like a great actor, when playing a role and acquires the characteristics of the character when playing the part.
Maybe this enhanced his life by imagining this perfect love.
Without these letters we would perhaps believe him to be one without the capacity to love, or love in way which he expresses so ardently in the letters. Hence the reason for the letters. Maybe he is trying to convince us from the grave.
That's an interesting and romantic perspective; however, it isn't supported by scholarly research. For example, the Beethoven Houses in both Bonn and Vienna accept Dr. Steblin's research.
@@DanielAdamMaltz Yes it’s difficult to bet on a certainty, isn’t it, when you’re not certain.
I certainly wouldn’t bet half my kingdom that I’m right. But also I wouldn’t be completely surprised if I wasn’t wrong.
Ah where would we be without life’s little mysteries,that give some of us interesting alternate postulations and speculations.
I believe in God which to me is a certainty that I would bet my kingdom on, however there are many great scholars who disagree with the likes of me. And because of this I don’t necessarily hang my hat on what the scholarly research might be. 😊🍀👍
I definitely consider this a possibility but not a probability. Another possibility is someone, like Josephine, had his affection but it was not necessarily returned by her.
Many of us have loved those who don't love us back. For Beethoven that seemed to happen a lot. If only we had a letter from this woman written to him.
Evidence points out that a lot of drafts and letters (and art) from Josephine (and my guess also Beethoven) have been distroyed by the aristocratic family and their friends in commission of them. They controled every move Josephine made, so think about that. How do you think things would work out in a love situation which is highly infortunate during these ages. It was all different then. Evidence already showed there have been those who have twisted the truth in command of the family. This was in order to hold back the rumers and ideas about this highly unfortunate situation for the aristocracy, in particular the family.
well done
Anyone else here for school?
yup
sure am
ye
Purely speculation but I always thought it was his brother’s wife and why he carried so much anger… or angst.
Beethoven was very private with his private life and proof of that is that even though the Immortal Beloved letters were found, nowhere was a note or something were he had put the actual name of the lucky girl in something like "...forever yours, as you'll ever be forever mine. The blessing of Eros and Aphrodite over us will make us to find each other again. May the muses take the music of your Ludwig to you and the love and kisses of my (true name of the inmortal beloved here) be brought by Aphrodites' doves to me..." Or he could have told any of his initmate friends or his own brothers, but there's no record of it. And the theory of Minona though appealing I have to disagree. Beethoven had, apparently, high moral standards. So fathering a child out of wedlock with an already married female it was not his style. Yeah he liked to flirt now and then, I mean he was not made out of stone, but that was it, just flirts. He despised that kind of behaviour and always criticised it (just the letters of him to his lawyer about Karl custody where he criticised the mother to be of low morale and not a good example for his nephew and he wanted that Karl grew up as a person of high moral and ethics, like him. Also he criticise his brother Johann's wife of being of low morale and having an illegitimate child). So, based on this,at least for me, it would be so difficult to believe the theory of Beethoven having an affair with Josephine and having a child because that would be against the principles he believed in, and he was not a double-faced man.
A special place for "suffering musical " type heroes such as this.
Who else is here for there school project?
it does sound a little like she draws a conclusion and works backwards from that, like a cryptozoologist trying to justify Bigfoot, but the evidence is compelling nonetheless.
Dr. Steblin's research is referenced as fact by the Beethoven Museum in Vienna and the Beethovenhaus Bonn. We edited out 2/3 of the interview, due to episode-length time constraints, and I'm very sad if the edits made her come across as biased. She was certainly no Bigfoot-style "researcher."
For more detail and clarification, here's an an article Dr. Steblin wrote about the Immortal Beloved: www.academia.edu/38538241/_Auf_diese_Art_mit_A_geht_alles_zu_Grunde_A_New_Look_at_Beethoven_s_Diary_Entry_and_the_Immortal_Beloved_in_Bonner_Beethoven_Studien_6_2007_147_180
How can an "ST" look like an "A" ?
Dr. Steblin shows examples from the source documents and discusses the topic more in depth here: www.academia.edu/38538241/_Auf_diese_Art_mit_A_geht_alles_zu_Grunde_A_New_Look_at_Beethoven_s_Diary_Entry_and_the_Immortal_Beloved_in_Bonner_Beethoven_Studien_6_2007_147_180.
The movie Immortal Beloved was full of fakes!
Did the maestro had a child or not?
According to Dr. Susan Lund, LvB did have a child - with Antonie Brentano. Her final child, a son born just months after the "Immortal Beloved" letter, was denounced by Antonie's own husband, who clearly told family members the child wasn't his. The movie was completely false - Beethoven's relationship with Johanna was one of hatred. He would never have slept with her, so Karl could never have been his. Read the books by Dr. Susan Lund; she has been writing about this for over 30 years; her research is clear, concise and meticulous.
If Dr. Lund's research is to be believed, yes, he had a son with Antonie Brentano. If you believe Steblin, he had a daughter with Josephine who was musical. But there's no real proof, just an intriguing mystery.
I disagree with it. Just listen to the Moonlight Sonata and you will feel who was the one he loved the most!!!
The Moonlight Sonata is dedicated to Julie Giuccardi and is certainly a very moving piece; however, we cannot draw conclusions based on that alone. At 3:32, Dr. Steblin explains that the theory about Julie Guicciardi came from an unsubstantiated claim by Anton Schindler.
@@DanielAdamMaltz It’s not based on the Moonlight alone. We have more information about the relationship between Ludwig and Julie. And Schindler’s opinion should have never been rejected just because Julie’s name wasn’t in the letter. Nobody knew facts about Ludwig’s life better than Schindler.
@@DanielAdamMaltz Should we give so much credit for this letter, knowing that Beethoven was such an emotional person? So temperamental, so moody!!! Even if Beethoven wrote that there was an immortal beloved, it might not have been the truth. And notice that he didn’t even send this letter. In my point of view, Beethoven was completely devoted for all the girls he fell in love with, and was unfairly rejected by all of them.
@@DanielAdamMaltz Your video is extremely interesting. I watched it twice. Thank you very much for it. Josephine might have been the Immortal Beloved. It’s a possibility. But I just think that in order to prove her theory, Dr. Steblin focused only on Josephine.
I continue to believe that the Moonlight Sonata is a strong indication that Julie Guicciardi was the woman Beethoven loved more deeply.
@@Omar92696 I appreciate your views and am glad you found the interview interesting.
While Anton Schindler was afforded a special place in Beethoven’s inner circle, we know now that Schindler exaggerated his relationship with Beethoven and also falsified entries in and removed many pages from Beethoven’s conversation books. Unfortunately, he will always be a damaged source.
He never sent the Immortal Beloved letter, but he also didn't send the Heiligenstadt Testament - another letter that details an integral part of Beethoven's mind.
Regarding Dr. Steblin's perceived focus on Josephine: To get a fuller understanding of her research on the other candidates, I highly recommend reading her research paper: www.academia.edu/38538241/_Auf_diese_Art_mit_A_geht_alles_zu_Grunde_A_New_Look_at_Beethoven_s_Diary_Entry_and_the_Immortal_Beloved_in_Bonner_Beethoven_Studien_6_2007_147_180
Uuumm yummy🤗🤗what does the letter say...give up all the dish.
Here's a link to an English translation of the letter: www.danieladammaltz.com/classicalcake/beethoven-immortal-beloved-identified-rita-steblin#letter