The Archery Wizard. Can't thank you enough for sharing all of your wisdom so freely for the world to take. Hope to meet you one day just to say thank you.
Pass throughs seem to mainly depend on which broadhead you use, arrow weight seems to help with penetration making less desirable shot placement more lethal.
@@F0xj Weight does help if you still have perfect arrow flight, true. But the VAST majority of misses or bad hits are into soft stuff like the guts,liver, stomach etc. A tiny tiny portion of bad hits are to the leg/knuckle/ or T of the scapula. So stack your odds with moderate set up. And just hit what your shooting at😉
@F0xj, I strongly disagree. all 9 of my elk were taken with a different broadhead, from 2" expandibles to 1" solid one piece. The two that didn't pass through were due to quartering away shots that stopped in the far side leg. 50 grains has a negligible effect on penetration, compared to 20fps faster arrow flight reducing the margin of error in yardage accuracy and flight path. See @Joelmaxfield posts in multiple forums of actual science and data relating to arrow weight/speed/penetration.
This is exhausting. I can remember my fondest memory of deer hunting. It was 30 years ago. I had a Darton bow (model?) set at 40 lbs with a single pin set at 20 yards. There was no level, d-loop or peep sight. I had hand me down Easton arrows and a fixed blade broadhead with a string tracker attached. The doe came in and I shot it. I waited an hour and followed the string tracker 60 yards right to the deer. I had no idea what my draw length was, or what arrow weight, FOC or speed were. It was a simpler (and maybe happier) time.
yep, the good ol days. my first compound was a bear polar LTD, i was shooting big ol aluminum overweight arrows and kolpin broadheads....that set up did kill some deer, but i sure dont miss that old equipment.
I think people will truly appreciate the difference if you don’t move the sight and show the drop on target. It’s so much more stark of a contrast when you see it plotted on target as opposed toa sight.
It takes a lot of effort and time to find what arrow design weight etc is the best for you. And what you’re going to be hunting. Even a 25 grain change can be a lot of elevation change especially if you aren’t drawing 70+ #’s at 30”. And you don’t need a 550-600 grain arrow to kill a deer or elk. Lower draw weight shooters ( 60#’s or so) need a lighter weight arrow like 450 tops to get a decent trajectory and sight tape that isn’t an inch long from 20 to 60. Working out the optimum arrow weight is 100% worth the time. It also adds to your confidence to know you have a great hunting setup.
I watched one of the big arrow advocates completely miss a hog on a feeder at 25yds because he forgot to range and assumed it was 20. Clean miss off a 5yd disparity. Would never happen with a normal arrow
I find it curious that people always talk about jumping from the 400’s to the 600’s, meanwhile the 500’s is where most people end up at when they increase arrow weight. Also not once have I ever heard anyone say you can’t kill anything in North America with a arrow lighter than 500gr so for everyone mentioning that, well I’d like to congratulate you on accomplishing something you’re supposed to do.
I began shooting 5 pins in the early 80s. Grouping is 1st. Pin gap 2nd. Used to shoot 75-80#, now at 75 and shoulder replacement I am at 53. Grouping is 1st, pin gap has suffered. Front shoulder control is tough. Sure enjoy your information.
I love these recent videos!! 100% spot on!!! So You're telling me I don't need a 690grain heavy helical single bevel , 80lb bow setup to go hunting!! I think a lot of the tuning people do, is the equivalent to picking fly sh!t ot of chili. I'm just an average archer who's been shooting a long time and realized years ago that if you can't keep your mental game,your form, your release and shot process in check that all the indepth tuning isn't going to gain you much points out on the course. It's the consistant good practice working on small parts of the process that is the key. Thank you John I really appreciate all that you do for archery. P.S VERMONT TAC 2024!!!!!!
I'm glad that you are doing this to show people because a lot of them doesn't do it themselves to know what their setup is doing! My draw length is 26 and draw weight is 65lbs. My total arrow weight has never been over 400 grains. I use a Easton sonic 340 now and 150gr foc. Total arrow weight is 380 ish. My weight to speed ratio is great. Like you said if I go heavier it is dramatically magnified!! 🎯
I got back into bow hunting a couple of years ago and noted right away how much has changed in the industry. Whatever questions or confusion I had were answered by and large following nockonarchery and John's incredibly solid teaching. I've built a good bow, fletched my arrows, upgraded my release, and most importantly, put in hours of practice on technique trying to get solid groupings. I'm nearly seventy and have been bagging nice whitetails out west in the 30-40 yard range, again, thanks to John's dedication to teaching. Thanks so much for keeping me in the game. I love this channel.
Thanks for the info John. I’m primarily a white tail hunter tree stand hunter. Most of kills are between 11-20 yards but I like to practice at 40. It’s a good idea to understand the bow you shoot
I think most peoples “bad luck” with lighter arrows is just bad broadhead choice tbh most off the shelf arrows hit 400gr that’s plenty and if you wanna go heavy go heavy that’s the joy of archery’s consumer market they got a spot for everyone lol
I do not know why all this, why not just choose one weight and shoot it in training and hunting.I have 2 bows one 60 pounds for 500 grain arrows the other 50 for 420. It would be good, for example, to choose such arrow weights for both bows so that the pins are at the same distances.
Food for thought, If a 400 grain and a 600 arrow are sighted in out to 80 yards what are the advantages and disadvantages of the trajectory of these two arrows?
Ive shot through dozens of deer out to 50 + with a 400 ish grain arrow. Just take shots you know you can make. Don't take garbage shots, and think well my arrow weighs as much as a car so it should be ok...
Thanks John loving the last couple of videos, and if this one's for the Whitetail Hunters especially who don't shoot long distance the drop consideration is even more important cuz most of the time they're hunting elevated so they're not shooting at a target that's the full height of a typical deer due the angle. Another good way you've taught me to visually show the difference in real-world Impact is take the current arrow setup I have then shoot other Arrow setups im comparing at the same distances without adjusting the sight. When I saw the heavier arrows with more foc that I was testing shoot a whole four in lower at 40 yds I stuck with my current setup. Out west I have found there is a greater chance you will not have the opportunity to range and dial or know your yardage spots as much as when I lived out east so the flatter and more forgiveness is where I'm sticking to. Nock on!
Hey, I'm newer to bow hunting and I was planning on shooting a exapandable blade broadhead. How much of a difference does shooting a fixed blade broadhead make on arrow flight/accuracy?
Hey John, good info here. You mentioned that with your sight closer to your bow hand, the less your pin gap is which makes sense to me. My question is, would that not also make hand torque LESS noticeable also? Or is my thinking backwards?
This one is just an axis with an aluminum insert at 85 gr point. But if you want an arrow that’s a better option look at our Sonic KE. If you use them you can go with a 75 gr insert and be almost the same overall weight but with more weight up front. They are great arrow. You can get 3 dozen for the price of 2 of our axis builds
i run two pins, the top one is for shooting and the bottom one is for ranging, if the animals back to belly is inside of the two pins its too far. if its outside of the pins its in my range. just so happens my top pin is 18 yards and my bottom pin is 40. the drop from 1-30 is plus or minus three inches. after 30 my arrow drops about 16 inches from 30 to 40. when i was 100 grains lighter i could use the same top pin out to 35 with comfort. aint no one arrow setup for all objectives.
Just know why you build your arrows the way you do heavy has benefits light has benefits. It is the 30-30 argument all over again has it killed more game then any round ever? Yes! Is it the best hunting round???? Probably not, test it yourself know the advantages and disadvantages and move on.
Still think you are somewhat missing the point of what the heavier arrow movement means for the vast majority of archers. When I started ten years ago, the arrow my archery centre built me was light, 380 grains. that was the norm, 100 grain point, 12 grain insert, 8.6ish gpi arrow, 12 grains on the back (lumenok a extra 32 if used) . Add in expandable with crap blade sharpness. Did they work, sure, kinda. Even with proper placement I was getting poor results half the time. bad deflections off ribs. What RF has done is get the industry back in line to what is ethical, Where is the harm in that? My 512 grain arrow is vastly superior, tuned to my bow, proper flight, sharp broadhead. Thats what he advocates for, not super heavy arrows. If I have to gap my pins a little to have far superior performance at impact. so be it.
Everyone always focuses on the 650gr point in the Ashby reports. It's on the bottom of the list until you hit heavy bone. 99% of what RF preaches is to get the arrows flying perfect and to use a strong broadhead. Back in the 90s I had no idea what my 180fps aluminum arrows weighed, but I'm guessing it was around 600gr. They all went right through deer. It's amazing that we can hit anything lol.
@@derrickquirin7404 yup, of course. Thats what is ironic about most of this. The point of "heavy" arrows is to get away from the 350. Not saying 650 is the way to go either.
You’re literally using the arrow I was just using and showed why it’s more that adequate, has ballistic benefits and still lets you get away with a missed range. The arrow that has 18% FOC, the 685gr just isn’t something that is forgiving when considering an animal. You’re arrow is what I’m trying to show is completely fine to hunt with. Now extreme weight or FOC needed
@@nockonarchery I agree 100%. Arrow flight and penetration wont mean a damn thing if you cant get the bow on target to begin with, through practice, like you are advocating for.What I was trying to point out is there seems to be a large misconception as to what the Heavy arrow deal RF started is all about, its not super heavy and thats it, its all around performance with everything taken into account. Very similar to exactly what you are doing. I heard you are coming to Calgary in August?
The Archery Wizard. Can't thank you enough for sharing all of your wisdom so freely for the world to take. Hope to meet you one day just to say thank you.
I will keep shooting my "wet noodle" 420 grain arrows...they seem to pass through elk just fine. 9 elk in 15 years all but 2 were pass-through.
EXACTLY!!!
Mine are around 416, or so. 🤷♂️
Pass throughs seem to mainly depend on which broadhead you use, arrow weight seems to help with penetration making less desirable shot placement more lethal.
@@F0xj Weight does help if you still have perfect arrow flight, true. But the VAST majority of misses or bad hits are into soft stuff like the guts,liver, stomach etc. A tiny tiny portion of bad hits are to the leg/knuckle/ or T of the scapula. So stack your odds with moderate set up. And just hit what your shooting at😉
@F0xj, I strongly disagree. all 9 of my elk were taken with a different broadhead, from 2" expandibles to 1" solid one piece. The two that didn't pass through were due to quartering away shots that stopped in the far side leg. 50 grains has a negligible effect on penetration, compared to 20fps faster arrow flight reducing the margin of error in yardage accuracy and flight path. See @Joelmaxfield posts in multiple forums of actual science and data relating to arrow weight/speed/penetration.
This is exhausting. I can remember my fondest memory of deer hunting. It was 30 years ago. I had a Darton bow (model?) set at 40 lbs with a single pin set at 20 yards. There was no level, d-loop or peep sight. I had hand me down Easton arrows and a fixed blade broadhead with a string tracker attached. The doe came in and I shot it. I waited an hour and followed the string tracker 60 yards right to the deer. I had no idea what my draw length was, or what arrow weight, FOC or speed were. It was a simpler (and maybe happier) time.
I had a similar setup but mine was a golden eagle bow. With a string tracker.
I still use a string tracker cause I’m colorblind n mine was a browning Safari with a wooden riser
yep, the good ol days. my first compound was a bear polar LTD, i was shooting big ol aluminum overweight arrows and kolpin broadheads....that set up did kill some deer, but i sure dont miss that old equipment.
I think people will truly appreciate the difference if you don’t move the sight and show the drop on target. It’s so much more stark of a contrast when you see it plotted on target as opposed toa sight.
I am hunting whitetail with a 1000+ grain arrow this season just because. 😊
So refreshing to see these videos and get people to actually THINK about their arrow setup instead of "I need 600gr arrows!!".
My God, I'm so tired of hearing the stupid adult arrows comment. People can't think for themselves anymore.
@@WolfinWolvesClothing713I love my adult arrows
@@loganpicou good for you
It takes a lot of effort and time to find what arrow design weight etc is the best for you. And what you’re going to be hunting. Even a 25 grain change can be a lot of elevation change especially if you aren’t drawing 70+ #’s at 30”. And you don’t need a 550-600 grain arrow to kill a deer or elk. Lower draw weight shooters ( 60#’s or so) need a lighter weight arrow like 450 tops to get a decent trajectory and sight tape that isn’t an inch long from 20 to 60. Working out the optimum arrow weight is 100% worth the time. It also adds to your confidence to know you have a great hunting setup.
I want that target!
I watched one of the big arrow advocates completely miss a hog on a feeder at 25yds because he forgot to range and assumed it was 20. Clean miss off a 5yd disparity. Would never happen with a normal arrow
I find it curious that people always talk about jumping from the 400’s to the 600’s, meanwhile the 500’s is where most people end up at when they increase arrow weight. Also not once have I ever heard anyone say you can’t kill anything in North America with a arrow lighter than 500gr so for everyone mentioning that, well I’d like to congratulate you on accomplishing something you’re supposed to do.
VAP 300 cut to 27.75,120 up front 14%foc. 383 total weight. 300 fps. Kill'd everything it hit. Great content Mr.Dudley
I began shooting 5 pins in the early 80s. Grouping is 1st. Pin gap 2nd. Used to shoot 75-80#, now at 75 and shoulder replacement I am at 53. Grouping is 1st, pin gap has suffered. Front shoulder control is tough. Sure enjoy your information.
I love shooting 650g at a whitetail 😅 ftw!
I love these recent videos!! 100% spot on!!!
So You're telling me I don't need a 690grain heavy helical single bevel , 80lb bow setup to go hunting!!
I think a lot of the tuning people do, is the equivalent to picking fly sh!t ot of chili. I'm just an average archer who's been shooting a long time and realized years ago that if you can't keep your mental game,your form, your release and shot process in check that all the indepth tuning isn't going to gain you much points out on the course. It's the consistant good practice working on small parts of the process that is the key. Thank you John I really appreciate all that you do for archery. P.S VERMONT TAC 2024!!!!!!
Another great video, you've made an impact on me for sure.
what do you consider ultra heavy arrow/ heavy arrow?
I hunt with my top pen at thirty.
Thanks for this. I’m running my first pin at 27, then 40. Most always my shots are under 33 yards, and this has been very forgiving.
Been shooting black eagle x impacts 250 spine around that 530gr mark its been the best flight I've had from testing some different stuff
Dumb question here
Can you hunt with a match grade arrow?
Did he just say he hunts with a 530gr arrow? Pretty sure that's right around what RF recommends.
I'm glad that you are doing this to show people because a lot of them doesn't do it themselves to know what their setup is doing! My draw length is 26 and draw weight is 65lbs. My total arrow weight has never been over 400 grains. I use a Easton sonic 340 now and 150gr foc. Total arrow weight is 380 ish. My weight to speed ratio is great. Like you said if I go heavier it is dramatically magnified!! 🎯
I got back into bow hunting a couple of years ago and noted right away how much has changed in the industry. Whatever questions or confusion I had were answered by and large following nockonarchery and John's incredibly solid teaching. I've built a good bow, fletched my arrows, upgraded my release, and most importantly, put in hours of practice on technique trying to get solid groupings. I'm nearly seventy and have been bagging nice whitetails out west in the 30-40 yard range, again, thanks to John's dedication to teaching. Thanks so much for keeping me in the game. I love this channel.
Thanks for the info John. I’m primarily a white tail hunter tree stand hunter. Most of kills are between 11-20 yards but I like to practice at 40. It’s a good idea to understand the bow you shoot
Influencers need to pump out content. No matter how ridiculous.
I’m an educator not an influencer IMO.
@@nockonarcheryindeed. 👍👍
correct, just look at what crap RF puts out, and people eat it up.
@nockonarchery if you had a premium channel like huberman, I'd join. Down and dirty education, no sponsors, no commercials.
Basic external balistics! Great topic indeed. What about practice point vs broad head of the same grain weight? If I makes sens.
I think most peoples “bad luck” with lighter arrows is just bad broadhead choice tbh most off the shelf arrows hit 400gr that’s plenty and if you wanna go heavy go heavy that’s the joy of archery’s consumer market they got a spot for everyone lol
Right On John.! Thanks for your expertise. On arrows an all. God bless you and familia. 👊👊👊
Its funny how some people act in the comments.
Appreciate the video, dud. 👍👍
Dang, that levitate is fast. With most other bows on the market those gaps would be even larger
Match the arrow to your situation.
I do not know why all this, why not just choose one weight and shoot it in training and hunting.I have 2 bows one 60 pounds for 500 grain arrows the other 50 for 420. It would be good, for example, to choose such arrow weights for both bows so that the pins are at the same distances.
Should do it at a 28.5 or 29" draw which is avg draw and see the drop
Food for thought,
If a 400 grain and a 600 arrow are sighted in out to 80 yards what are the advantages and disadvantages of the trajectory of these two arrows?
Is there an advantage of a lob shot at 80?
Ive shot through dozens of deer out to 50 + with a 400 ish grain arrow. Just take shots you know you can make. Don't take garbage shots, and think well my arrow weighs as much as a car so it should be ok...
Shot placement is always key even with big magnum rifles
Thanks John loving the last couple of videos, and if this one's for the Whitetail Hunters especially who don't shoot long distance the drop consideration is even more important cuz most of the time they're hunting elevated so they're not shooting at a target that's the full height of a typical deer due the angle. Another good way you've taught me to visually show the difference in real-world Impact is take the current arrow setup I have then shoot other Arrow setups im comparing at the same distances without adjusting the sight. When I saw the heavier arrows with more foc that I was testing shoot a whole four in lower at 40 yds I stuck with my current setup. Out west I have found there is a greater chance you will not have the opportunity to range and dial or know your yardage spots as much as when I lived out east so the flatter and more forgiveness is where I'm sticking to. Nock on!
Love it John your dead on this is what I have done for yrs then moved away from this now I'm coming back to it! Thanks for sharing!
Boom! (mic drop)... There's no cheating physics! Thanks for posting John! As always, no BS, just to the point.
Hey, I'm newer to bow hunting and I was planning on shooting a exapandable blade broadhead. How much of a difference does shooting a fixed blade broadhead make on arrow flight/accuracy?
Hey John, good info here. You mentioned that with your sight closer to your bow hand, the less your pin gap is which makes sense to me. My question is, would that not also make hand torque LESS noticeable also? Or is my thinking backwards?
That's right, that's why Levi Morgan normally shoots with his sight pushed back close to the bow.
So what velocity ranges do you recommend?
I've heard him say around 280 fps is what he shoots for
What's the 460 arrow build?
How much for a dozen?
This one is just an axis with an aluminum insert at 85 gr point. But if you want an arrow that’s a better option look at our Sonic KE. If you use them you can go with a 75 gr insert and be almost the same overall weight but with more weight up front. They are great arrow. You can get 3 dozen for the price of 2 of our axis builds
Great topic. Animals move. A good demonstration would be to shoot at 42 yards using the 40 yard pin. Will show the difference in drop.
i run two pins, the top one is for shooting and the bottom one is for ranging, if the animals back to belly is inside of the two pins its too far. if its outside of the pins its in my range. just so happens my top pin is 18 yards and my bottom pin is 40. the drop from 1-30 is plus or minus three inches. after 30 my arrow drops about 16 inches from 30 to 40. when i was 100 grains lighter i could use the same top pin out to 35 with comfort. aint no one arrow setup for all objectives.
If you send me one of those sights I'll tattoo the logo on me lol cheap marketing. Think about it!
Just know why you build your arrows the way you do heavy has benefits light has benefits. It is the 30-30 argument all over again has it killed more game then any round ever? Yes! Is it the best hunting round???? Probably not, test it yourself know the advantages and disadvantages and move on.
Is it just me or is John just taking over the archery/arrow flight game lately!?
Still think you are somewhat missing the point of what the heavier arrow movement means for the vast majority of archers. When I started ten years ago, the arrow my archery centre built me was light, 380 grains. that was the norm, 100 grain point, 12 grain insert, 8.6ish gpi arrow, 12 grains on the back (lumenok a extra 32 if used) . Add in expandable with crap blade sharpness. Did they work, sure, kinda. Even with proper placement I was getting poor results half the time. bad deflections off ribs. What RF has done is get the industry back in line to what is ethical, Where is the harm in that? My 512 grain arrow is vastly superior, tuned to my bow, proper flight, sharp broadhead. Thats what he advocates for, not super heavy arrows. If I have to gap my pins a little to have far superior performance at impact. so be it.
Did you listen to what weight John shoots?
Everyone always focuses on the 650gr point in the Ashby reports. It's on the bottom of the list until you hit heavy bone. 99% of what RF preaches is to get the arrows flying perfect and to use a strong broadhead. Back in the 90s I had no idea what my 180fps aluminum arrows weighed, but I'm guessing it was around 600gr. They all went right through deer. It's amazing that we can hit anything lol.
@@derrickquirin7404 yup, of course. Thats what is ironic about most of this. The point of "heavy" arrows is to get away from the 350. Not saying 650 is the way to go either.
You’re literally using the arrow I was just using and showed why it’s more that adequate, has ballistic benefits and still lets you get away with a missed range. The arrow that has 18% FOC, the 685gr just isn’t something that is forgiving when considering an animal. You’re arrow is what I’m trying to show is completely fine to hunt with. Now extreme weight or FOC needed
@@nockonarchery I agree 100%. Arrow flight and penetration wont mean a damn thing if you cant get the bow on target to begin with, through practice, like you are advocating for.What I was trying to point out is there seems to be a large misconception as to what the Heavy arrow deal RF started is all about, its not super heavy and thats it, its all around performance with everything taken into account. Very similar to exactly what you are doing. I heard you are coming to Calgary in August?