Back in the 90s when I was in college, one of the first computer programs I made was a randomized lifepath generator for Cyberpunk 2020. It was one of those things that helped me move from being a physics major to being a computer science major which started my career for 25+ years.
The idea of a house rule called "You remember the time Robocop shot that guy in the dick?" that creates half cover conditions made me laugh a great deal.
Really fair review, and echoed many of my criticisms of the game. For a setting that emphasizes style and flair they stripped a lot of the style (I.e. brand recognition) out of it in favor of going with something that feels really generic. My only hope is they have supplements planned to introduce this back into the game.
Seems like the existing streamlined stuff might be a good start for new players, but then we'll need to houserule in modifiers and the best cinematic parts for the "full" experience. Wonder if there are good fan-made rules supplements for this purpose out- I'd be surprised if there's nothing out there.
I played a bit of Cyberpunk 2020 in the nineties, and one thing that impressed me was the attention to detail about the many martial arts styles that were available. You could have a jujitsu master fight a kung fu master and their specializations mattered.
No joke I bought this rulebook specifically because of that reference. Any company willing to make a nod to our man Seth is worth a little extra attention.
I'm making it in-home canon that Scott Brown Realty LLC has been in existence since 1918 just in case I decide to run Call of Cthulhu someday! It's such a great story and it's ripe for spicing up an adventure.
@@brianlawson3757 Ha! Have them be the Agency that bought Corbin House to long after the events of the Haunting and drop hints to the investigators that they're buying up the properties the party visits for some unknown reason. :)
@@Syaniiti That doesn't sound like fun and that's a theme I wouldn't bring to my table. I certainly wouldn't want to play a game with themes of colonization and genocide of an entire people. However, I'm pretty sure you're just trolling because you think being edgy and insensitive makes you cool. It doesn't.
The pricing thing was the first thing I decided to homebrew out of. For example, I broke down the Fast Food Meal at 10eb: 5eb for the burger by itself, 3eb for fries, 2eb for just a soda. Say you meet up with someone at a burger place, and need to order something to seem like you have another reason to be there. You wouldn’t have to pay 10eb. If you just want fries and a drink for 5eb instead, you can do that. If you play a big guy who usually orders the super sizes because he’s always hungry, it could be 6eb for a bigger burger, 5eb for super fries, and 3eb for a big drink for a meal that actually costs 14eb.
I like this method, I think I'm going to try to do similar modifications across the board. Split things up, offer nitty gritty piecemeal pricing (and combat modifiers, for example) for my group since the majority of us have been playing TTRPGs for some time now.
Which is completely pointless consideribg people just write off 300 eb a month for these kind of minor expenses.... i would not charge my players for burgers, fries or whatever.... we are here to play awesome cyberpunk, not bookkeeping sim. Just nice to know what something is worth to give some perspective
RED was my introduction to tabletop Cyberpunk, and my group and I have been having a blast. It was a breath of fresh air for those of us who've only had a chance to play 5e. That said, I am hoping they release updates to the cover and aiming systems. I get the impression that RED is meant to be built on and expanded, so I'd be surprised if these kinds of things don't show up in another year or two.
I just noticed you got yourself a silver play button! Good for you, Seth! Your channel is awesome and you totally deserve that recognition! Yours is one of the few channels that I enjoy enough that when the notification pings on my phone, I make sure to watch whatever just dropped as soon as I get a chance. 😎👍
I've just started GMing a game of red! I was super stoked to find your GM tips, you've been a massive help for me. Awesome to see you review Red finally! In our first session we ran Getting Paid, and when the players tried to search the warehouse online, I told them "You find a real estate listing." Unfortunately they did not take the bait.
28:50 I feel like shotguns in *most* TRPGs aren't handled particularly well. The fantasy of the shotgun is basically the two-handed axe of the gun world, It's "close-range stopping power: the weapon"... but most TRPGs turn it into a sort of weird AOE crowd control weapon even though I've never seen shotguns in anything, fiction or otherwise, being used to shoot multiple targets at once. Shotgun pellets just don't spread that dramatically, and you wouldn't want them to!
Great vid Seth Problems with RED and Fixes 1) Layout is horrible... You have to flip to 4 chapters to fully grasp throwing a grenade. Lore chapters are mixed between rules and chapters like Putting the Cyber in Cyberpunk is completely redundant. Solution - Cut the corner out of non-rule chapters for quick flips 2) Lacking Gear Variety... Players begin with too much money and have most of what they want from the gate with little to look forward to. There's not even some obvious ones like a silencer attachment or reflex sight (For Laser Sight We gave it a +1 Hit, but allows targets of any REF to dodge). Solution - If the inventor can invent, the GM should to and make a huge list of everything missing. Also take the effects of exotic brand weapons and allow the to be applied to any weapon for the price difference. Weird the only malarian arm is a pistol for example. Buying excellent quality cyberware should have a minor skill bonus. 3) No Dual Wielding... Easy fix it provides +1 ROF, but a penalty to hit equal to the total d6s of the two weapons. Same applies to firing 2 handed weapons with 1 hand. 4) Armor Ablation Way Too Crunchy... A GM having to ablate every hit and track the ablation of 10 different goons is a pain and is very time consuming. Not to mention added math from melee halfing SP. Solution - Mass Combat Rule, the GM reduces goon armor by 1/5 round up to reduce more and piercing rounds simply add +2 Damage, but armor does not ablate. Math comes out to the same hits to kill with most weapons. 5) Heavy Armor is Terrible... Everyone has 11 SP, why, because any other armor is the wrong choice. Heavy armor penalized you to oblivion, costs a fortune, and takes forever to repair. Solution - Have the REFLEX penalty only apply to head armor. It makes sense and still allows you a penalized dodge vs bullets and the ability to aim. Plus heavy armored fores would be incentified to wear lighter head armor to avoid penalties encouraging head shots. 6) Melee Overpowered... Melee weapons and martial arts ignoring half armor is annoying math and makes them sooo much better than guns. Plus it's weird your BODY does not effect melee weapon damage. Their pricing is weird too, a lead pipe could cost you $100. Solution - Do not ignore half armor, simply add 1 d6 damage to unarmed at ROF 2, or 2d6 at ROF 1. 7) Autofire is a Trap... Do the math of special ammo costs and how high your hit has to be to reliably autofire and it simply isn't worth an x2 skill investment when compared to explosives or someone specing more in damage with single fire. Why? between aimed shots and the way higher crit probability of 5d6 vs 2d6 with a the result multiplied, you'll see the same damage results for single fire vs autofire. Solution - Easy, multiply d6s rolled, not damage, much higher crit probability, still not worth it to me, but viable. 8) Vague Skill Descriptions... Very minor, but a trend in modern gaming. Skills simply need some sample difficulties and tasks. Also demolitions being an x2 skill should let you craft grenades like a tech. Also also, there are some redundant skill bloat like why is there Style and Personal Grooming those should be the same. 9) Character Sameness... Everyone wears the same armor and prioritizes the same stats REF, DEX, WILL/BODY/EMP, TECH/INT, LUCK in that order. Why, REF is firearm hit and has to be at 8 to dodge bullets which is essential to survival. DEX is dodge and also melee hit, and so on. Allow dodging firearms when adjacent. It makes sense too, also allow luck to apply rerolls which are better. Luck maybey could have been called CHARISMA and have taken some of the social skills out of INT in my opinion. Bonus Notes 1) Exploding 10 is a good mechanic, but option is lackluster as 99% of the time it would have succeeded. Allow exploding dice to combo into another attack or skill roll for variety. 2) Raising Roles above 5 is rarely worthwhile. It should be a fixed rate at the medium range. Pro Tip, prioritize Evasion first. 3) Fumble - When a 1 rolls backward and rolls higher than your luck it's a fumble and has a chart effect. Fumble table however award a bonus luck use up to max luck. 4) Netrunning is better, but still slows the game to a crawl as Netrunners get 3 rounds to everyone's 1 and for very little effect at high risk. It's like you have an intense gunfight. The netrunner is going to hack the lights to turn them off and give everyone escape. The whole game pauses for a several turns of Magic the Gathering to maybe turn off a light, and maybe kill the netrunner. 5) Range Tracking - Printed a custom character sheet with range slots to fill in next to weapon. Helps allot. Remember the first 3 range increments is where most combat happens. 3,+3,+6 spaces, the next increment is +12 spaces that's most a battlemat if using The game is still fun. Really glad you got to the layout on this book being my biggest issue. Thanks Seth.
Thanks for this review, it touches on all my own issues and praises for this sytem. In the end I feel like I may just pull portions of red and incorporate them into 2020 along with the homebrewed rules from Interlock Unlimited
I'm kind of in the same boat. As it stands rather something I will definitely not be playing however I will strip mine for any interesting resources. I'll just tweak my 2020 game as well.
That does sound like the best plan: finding that sweet spot somewhere between the overcomplicated rules of C20 and the too-stripped-down approach of CRed, getting the best of both worlds as far as possible.
27:16 Scott Brown survived the 4th Corporate War and has some nice offices in the city I see. Great video, really can't wait to see more of the Time of the Red; A lot of possibilities Lore wise before the 2077 events kick in.
Haven't played 2020 but as someone who has been running a CPR game for about a year, I tend to agree with the complaints. I tend to find that players do tend to just stand around shooting at the enemy rather than acting like they're in a John Woo movie. Hopefully we'll get some DLC to alter that.
I think the game is made to cause attrition to pcs rather than everything having immediate and deadly consequences. Attrition favours a tank and spank style of gameplay. If you know the enemy might cause serious damage, even straight out kill you if they get to do their thing, you will be more likely to apply ambushes and, in a straight up combat scenario, apply tactics to take them out as fast as possible, including taking extra Actions and using multiple weapons etc. I'm doubtful if this can be fixed without redesigning the whole Combat System around the idea that everything should have great immediate effect or very dangerous effect over one to two rounds. I think dropping hp to around 20 max would be one way to do it.
Would also change to move + Action to just having the ability to take multiple actions per turn, moves or otherwise and giving a negative penalty for taking more than two.
Could also lean into destructible terrain - when a player ducks down behind a kitchen counter or something, have the bad guys fire at where they were trying to shoot them through the cover. The game mechanics don’t let you deal damage with the same shot that finally breaks the cover but the NPCs don’t know that. From their in-universe perspective they don’t notice the change in initiative rounds. And, of course, as Raymond Holt once said; “Do you know what else is interesting? *Grenades*.” The rules for throwing them got buried in the grappling rules (same mechanics whether you’re throwing a grenade or some Maelstrom gonk) but I would let them be lobbed over cover as a called shot.
You are not throwing enough grenades then. That, hold action and autofire are the things that will make character move a lot. It is perfectly viable and legal to hold your action and shoot when someone peeks out of cover to shoot (That's one reason why initiative matters SO MUCH, since you can only hold until the end of the turn)
12:00 networks do actually work kinda like this. Usually there’s a local network that then connects to the internet, but sometimes specific networks will be disconnected from the internet as a whole for security reasons. The big thing is that if you can access it legitimately, you also are connected enough to hack it
Also any connection to a bigger public network like internet are known vector of attack and monitored for that very reasons. Even if a network is connected to the internet you can still have reasons to go to the facility physically to facilitate or speed up hacking, also with remote hacking your attempt can always be twarted by just disconnecting the network from the internet.
I've recently purchased Red after watching the netflix series, and I'm thankful that you put this video out. I think my greastest disapoitment is the weapons. Browsing through the old edition really excited me, cause there were so many different weapons. So to see that they've stripped it down so much honestly hurts a little, since you've lost the brand recognition as you've said. I'm personally planning on just using the old weapon table for this new game for my players, though I'll have to see if that's viable. But despite that, I'm still excited to play. Even if it'll take home homebrewing and house ruling, I'm looking forward to some cyberpunk.
Some of the free DLCs have started to fix this. “Old Guns Never Die” gives advice on converting the old 2020 guns into Red, “Twelve Days of Gunmas” brings a bunch of 2020 faves into Red (including the Cityhunter, the fancy revolver from the Scott Brown Incident), “Woodchipper’s Garage” brings in a bunch of heavier weapons. We also have “Black Chrome” right around the corner, which R.Tal dropped a teaser of on Twitter about an hour or two ago that gives me the impression that they’re bringing back more of 2020’s gun porn.
@@procrastinatinggamer You can convert them, but thats just turning them into same generic shlock, maybe with higher quality as baseline which can just be given to generics. I can crack open my cp2020 book and cite benefits and drawbacks of ronin light(rof 30, wa+1, 450eb) and sa-80(rof 20, wa+2, 600eb) have over each other. and why you should never buy ovepriced pos towa type-99. How about the militech trio Dragon, less accuracy than its brothers but without silencer concealable under coat, nice pdw alternative, with decent 6d6-1 dmg at not that insane price 700eb MK IV, more accurate version of dragon and capable of firing both 6.5h(at 6d6-1) and 5.56(5d6) doesnt beat ronin in 5.56 but at 6.5h this gun is amazing and still affordable at 800eb. MK V, unique weapon, slow automatic 6.5 ETE at rof 4, prototype of something you cant just achieve with custom upgrades, nice good 9d6 damage, amazing range for assault rifle at 600m but naturally rather expensive at 1500eb.
@@brunojesusguilperez When you have a setting where your style and apperance is so important, not having a finer choice in what weapons you bring just feel like a waste of potential. If I have tabels for what kind of style of clothes I can wear, why is my heavy pistol basically the same as a random ganger I find on the street? It feels generic when there was potential for world building, like Seth says in 25:00.
@@brunojesusguilperez there was always contenders and problem was more pronounced with pistols, i still have no idea why have 9mm or below other than to arm npcs, but npcs need to be armed too. Where i disagree, is the core premise of the game, i had a person get into argument about guns, buy scifi starrior, the absolute garbage at 60 eb and blow at it enough money to make it usable weapon. Why have 10mm when 11mm exists and is not much more expensive, well if i decide to turn my pistol into selective semi automatic 11mm will have too much recoil for me to fire even with cyberarm so i need to go down a caliber, thats a more niche use but its there. Of course everyone could just buy cyborg rifle and run with it, but realistically that doesnt happen, only outliers are extremely expensive guns, yeah sure they wont get used much because cheaper guns do stuff better. But then everyone had their favorites, i thought id never use sternmeyer m95a4 till i had installed 2 on drone, gun who normally is not better than ronin suddenly got nice in massive magazine i could put on machine that cant reload.
So in other words ....we need Cyberpunk Red Second Edition. Clean up the errata, re-edit the information into a cleaner format, and update combat and the market like Seth mentioned. Basically I think the game will need a major over haul that would just make it a new edition all together, but that's just me. I have both CP 2020 and Red. Its great to see a new edition of CP come out but I have much of the same concerns that Seth has. Many of the gamers around me are seasoned and trying to tell someone there is no bonuses or penalties for prone shooting, aiming etc will not sit well with them. In addition, Jon Jon The Wise has a great UA-cam page devoted to Cyberpunk. From what I have seen, I would call him very 'pro" cyberpunk with little criticisms of the new game. He does get interviews with R Talsorian game designers which is cool and provides good insight into some of the questionable game design choices that were made. However, I really like Seth's counter points and criticisms of the game. It provides some much needed constructive criticism and praise for the game. With all that said, I still want to play the game.
Well, if one looks at the errata document for Red, it seems like there's a lot. By page count, there has been actually more errata to D&D 5e Players Handbook which is a shorter book to begin with. Wizards of the Coast didn't rush out a new edition two years into the print run of 5e, and I see little reason for R Talsorian to do that now.
@@lordzaboem It would be nice if RT Games produced a new book with cleaned up errata. November 2022 marks two years since CP Red was released, so RT Games should have plenty of feedback to see what errata needs to be fixed etc. After all, lees errata is less arguing, less confusing rules and it helps make the game go quicker. It is funny how this game has been out for two years but has been completely overshadowed by their computer spinoff Cyberpunk 2077. Maybe R Talsorian needs to hop on the band wagon and make a book version of Cyberpunk 2077 after all.
Thanks Seth. Any chance of you posting house rules yall use? I loved that feature of your review/overview in Travaller. Also, way to go George. I hope Seth is as good with you now as I have seen him be on Glass Cannon.
First, I’ve run my players through two 2020 campaigns and one RED. We all agree with your review except on Netrunning and the economy. We didn’t netrun in 2020 for obvious reasons, but in RED it was still a side-game, and not a fun one at that. It didn’t work out the way the authors intended it to, and having it all depend on a single unmodified role ability gave it a frustrating sameness. The economy doesn’t fit the setting. If there’s little trade or industry, who is making this technology? We were lost. Is this post-apocalyptic or cyberpunk? It feels that the authors couldn’t make up their minds. That being said, vehicle combat is atrociously bad. There are two things I noticed in the video that need pointing out. You’re using the first printing of the rules. The auto fire chart is wrong and was corrected in later printings. The other thing was the DVs. It should be noted that you have to beat the DV listed in order to succeed. So, if the DV of an everyday task is 13, you have to roll 14 or better to succeed. Finally, your review doesn’t make RED sound like a good game, and there are way more things wrong with it than you pointed out. You admit making a lot of house-rules to fix things, and we agree. We were very disappointed on how RED turned out, and we thank you for your honesty. Other reviewers have claimed that RED was the best thing ever, but it’s just not.
Separating thoughts and feelings about different editions/versions of anything is a herculean effort. Different editions of D&D have the same brand name, but at the table can play vastly different to the point of seeming like a different game with an attempt to dress it the same. I'm glad you put in effort to play it through and give yourself time to digest Red rather than an off the cuff review. Your professionalism shows and is appreciated. Does the ingame Scott Brown company compensate your characters for the free marketing you've been providing?
Yeah, when the river of, "When are going to review Red?!" questions started flooding in and blanketing every single video I posted, starting about 2 milliseconds after the PDF released, it was difficult to explain how no one actually wanted my initial thoughts on it because the old grognard in me was screaming with agony at every single tiny change. I've watched enough old-timers in every other game go on rants about how the new edition is a crime against their childhood, and I promised myself long ago I wasn't going to be like that. I'd give it time to rate it off its own merits and not my rose-colored memory of an edition that I'd house-ruled to the point it wasn't even recognisable (he says casually, as if he doesn't remember his initial and passionate reaction when D&D dared to change editions on him decades ago).
@Seth Skorkowsky cough cough I just figured I'd let ya know I'm feeling the grognard in me as I look through Wizards of the Coast's changes to stuff in the One D&D / update to 5e (or whatever they're calling it now) playtest material... >.> lol. (I've played since 2e, and yeah changes are usually a mixed bag, but if they're substantial enough it just needs to be a new edition and not a half-baked hot fix).
When I run cp red I used the old blackhand streetweapons guide to jury rig a bunch more weapons into the game and that was a huge game changer in my game, especially coming from playing 2020 a fair bit.
@@jaredtalksdungeons1402 I basically threw out all the cyberpunk red weapons and wholesale use the street weapons guide. I wasn't happy with the conversion rules put out so I just don't use them. sometimes there are tweaks made for balance but otherwise i don't change anything
I wrote my bachelors thesis about CP20, CP77 and CPRed and I was rather disappointed by CPRed. There is so much great and funky stuff in there, but overall It just felt like it lacks the rough soul that made the old system so special. Especially glad to see I am not the only one who feels that the weapon and pricing aspects both took something essential away for the sake of simplicity. As it is now I don't run CP games anymore. I just can't bring myself to do commit to do the Frankenstein project of combining the parts I like of CP20 and CPRed. Hope that will change some day^^
I tried it and it works fine, honestly. You might have to change some of the Modifiers, as they don't really apply to the RED rules, such as shooting a target with 14 REF (which is unlikely to have/get in RED) but aside from that, you can just apply most of them no problem at all.
As a new player who played the Jumpstart Kit, delved a bit into the 2020 just to fleshout some extra rules that didn't exist in the Kit and then day-1 the Red edition, I agree with most, if not all of your points (except the price categories, I find that in my not-so-good-at-math brain finds this categorising easier and quicker to understand and then roleplay merchants who have raised prices, e.g. instead of 100 eb pistol, they ask 175 for it). But I honestly think that, without having actual experience with 2020 outside of kinda reading it, the best of both worlds is that Red is a trimmed down version that can be easily understood and the players who want that something extra, we can implement almost directly from 2020. Don't want to have universal ammunition? Check the 2020 rules. Want more item / upgrade ideas that are not in the book? Check 2020 etc. Might not be the best writing (especially with the duplicate tables taking up space that could have been these extra stuff), but would be doable more easily than not, from what rules I took for the sessions of Red I run, and we have tons of fun. 2020 would be too heavy to run IMO, based on my party's needs and wants. Thank you for an awesome review!
could you do a how-to series detailing some of the specifics of combat and netrunning? i'm a new player and your style is very easy to understand and apply. thanks seth!
for what is worth Scott Brown is a cannon for all games our group play. from call of cthulhu to Delta green to traveller. And we will be playing some Dungeon Crawl Classics sometime and Scott Brown will be there too... Thanks for the excellent content Seth.
This review is bang on, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really was disappointed by the lack of branding, in a world about brands (corps) being everywhere
I played RED and did enjoy my time, but It felt like this game was a test run or that there is a more advanced version their waiting to release. The game definitely felt like they stripped out a lot of stuff for the sake of streamlining. And I could feel that never having had the opportunity to play the original.
Years back I was working a job that included a ton of data-entry. It was mind-numbing work and I hadn't discovered Audible yet. So I had 4-5 audiobooks I'd cycle through as background noise. It's kind of like when I do laundry I put in a movie I've seen countless times. It was great because there were times I'd need to focus my attention on work and might stop listening to the book for a while, but when I turned my mind back to it, I automatically knew where I was. Among them was Virtual Light read by Frank Muller (also my favorite narrator). Over the years, (according to my iPod) I listened to that book over 20 times.
I first found this channel looking for Cyberpunk Red vids when the jumpstart kit came out, great to see the full review! I found the generic equipment just as disappointing as a new player/referee - hypercapitalism is a central theme of the genre, standard templates and fixed pricing don't really fit in a world where everything and everyone is a product to be marketed.
Nothing's stopping you from naming the generic guns. Mechanically it makes sense to offer generic profiles for a wide swath of weapons that would otherwise overlap each other pointlessly. If they stand out enough, just use the Old Guns Never Tire pdf to make them into an Exotic. The world is going through a rough transitionary period in 2045. The core book reflects that with a good, generic groundwork for everything else to build on, imo. I'm sure Black Chrome will give us the goods.
@@abesolutzero It makes sense mechanically, it's just kinda boring - same for old guns never die, which 'flattens' everything into the Red templates (tho I did use it). Overlap is indeed mostly pointless for the game mechanics, but there's a balance between gameplay and roleplay and the gear game in Red leans to the wrong side for me personally. Anyway yeah, I heard Black Chrome is adding more, so looking forward to it!
@@RobeCobe I mean, it's just the core book, so I'm glad they're focusing on laying down a solid groundwork before going into everything else. All the new weapons, etc in the DLCs that've come out are so far looking pretty promising.
Great review Seth. I agree there is some clunkiness to the rulebook and system, and yet I always find myself coming back to Night City! The lore is incredible and I feel I'm able to run sessions where the players and I really get immersed in the dark future that the book portrays.
Sorry i must disagree. Witcher rpg is great. It has far better rules then cp red. New incarnation of cyberpunk shuould be more like witcher rpg and less like it is now.
Personal thoughts: I totally agree the lack of some shooting mecanics, as well as a full crafting system, witch is something that i love at any worldbulding heavy TTRPG. But the generalization of the guns and setting those standart monopoly like prices isn't That bad these days if you think of: By the year the jumpstart kit was announced, some friends and I began to hype the Cyberpunk TTRPG franchise and engaged to read the 2020 rule book. We were a bit more young and unexperienced around tactic games mechanics and had a hell of a headache trying to interpret these rules. After reading RED I finally get the purpose of each of these editions based on the time they were developed. While 2020 catched the old school era of TTRPG with heavily mechanic based games, RED is dealing now with a new generation of players, more interested in entering this world by narrative means rather than the game aspects (both are great and appreciated, I just see the shift of interest regarding my fellow players). With that been said, RED mechanics are more focused to welcome new players rather than refresh the Old Guard's Nostalgia. That is why they only give detailed info about the Cyberware and Gear at the Economy section instead of the beginning, because the first pages were designed to simplify the world for those are coming fresh. Besides, it is done without hurting one of the mains proposals of the Cyberpunk Combat System, Friday Night Firefight (I'll be calling FNF), that is making every fight painful and every blade or bullet deadly, because no sane citizen would enjoy starting a gunfight. And, please, don't get me wrong; I've played TT games with heavily mechanic based economy regarding different prices and Looter Shooter Videogames, which try to state the crucial difference between to weapons of the same type but different manufacturers or just different stats. These thing do make a difference, but only at it's respective universes and for it's respective games' proposals. For RED, it is enough for a fresh player to know only what is an auto rifle and what is a shotgun, what is cheap and what is efficient, leaving the worldbulding labels for those who want a deeper dive in night city at later games. For storytelling purposes, I like to think that, at the Time of the Red, when the the traditional corporations failed, standart weapons don't make a difference anymore, ans the default prices of the market only represent the broken post-colapse economy. And that doesn't mean all mythic weapons are gone; that'a why those Christmas free DLCs R. Talsorian Games are so important. They didn't bring back Militech Crusher, Kendachi Dragon or Nomad Pneumatic Weapon just as Exotic weapons, those are relics from the past, and besides their own deal being "just" standart weapons with diffrent mechanics, it already tells us how the 2020s were the golden yeara for night city and gun manufacturing was pretty much diffrent than how the Neocorporations or Scavenger Techies. Speaking of which, this generalization of weapons was made specially so that they could insert a role ability able to not just fabricate itens into the game, but inventing brand new thing into the world. Still miss the suppressor though, sneaking like solid snake and gunning the boosters one by one, and I hope that 2023 Christmas DLC include crazy yet essencial gun mods, like they did with Gunmas and Cybermas (which, if you haven't read yet, hop on Talsorian's website right now and take a look, it is free and you can now pump out of your cyberarm a goddamn chainsaw) Finally, a message for the Old Guard: I hope y'all don't get mad at some young TTRPG Player and also Know I appreciate your experiences with this beloved hobbie. I learned to love combat tactis and character optimization, the game aspecta of the roleplay without compromising the story, and your war game wisdom many times served as a lighthouse when trying new game systems or jusr bulding up my combos. This text isn't about generation confict, is just a generation gap; I don't think they are making many more TTRPG like before, but don't think is much of an issue, just different game proposals; some may sound coherent or nor, and some we may like or not. There are things in RED's FNF that upset me, like making dual wielding useless. I can't chrome uo my both arms and go like wolverine into my enemies, and I would love to know your thoughts about homebrewing these gaps at the game. Talsorian itself encourages players to do it and let's get in mind that this edition is like 2 years old. If you manege to read untill here, I hope you have a wonderful day, and remember to stay hydrated. Never fade away, choom!
Enjoyed it. I loved that it was ultimately a tragedy. Cyberpunk isn't a world of happy endings. I especially liked how they depicted the progression into cyberpsychosis, starting with shakes, and working up to full dissociation from reality. The way they set it up, so the audience and even other characters can clearly see it coming, but our hero, like an addict, is blind to the problems until it's too late. Cybertech (like Mythos Tomes in Call of Cthulhu) is a double-edged sword. It helps you survive in the short-term by giving you an edge. But in excess it ends up being the cause of your own fall.
Yeah, played _Cyberpunk RED_ during a live series and was continually confounded by some of the mechanics decisions, especially combat. Was literally shooting out from inside a heavily armored vehicle (through a narrow window). But, that wasn't considered *cover* according to the 'Golden Rule.' Or how our Solo tried to shoot an adversary with her assault rifle at close range... and had to back away from them to have a better chance at hitting. Been playing _Cyberpunk_ since the original, so was kind of disappointed overall. Shame really.
This is the best RPG review I've ever read or watched. I was a huge Cyberpunk 2020 fan and Red has had me excited since it was announced. I am disappointed by it, though. I think it's got great potential but it needs a serious amount of work to become what it should. Thanks for the great, great content, Seth!
There is a single throwaway line somewhere in all the official material that mentions why suppressors are no longer used. Every single modern firearm is now integrally suppressed and caseless, no exceptions. I'm going to have to deep dive all the books and blog posts to figure out where that came from. Found it! It's "From the Mayor's Desk 1.15.21"
9:50 I agree with issuing IP to individual skills, cos it encourages players to try to use the skills they want to improve. They'll naturally get better at the things they already do frequently, but it rewards active attempts to get better in character. Also, if you go with the old 2020 idea of awarding some points even if they're not particularly being effective but they're still using the skill, it can take the edge off some bad rolls. Players like being rewarded for putting in effort. On the subject of netrunning, I'm not a huge fan of the way they've done it in this edition, but it gave me the inspiration necessary to fix it in 2020. Firstly, I established that most major corporate data-fortresses are on separate local networks that can be cut off from the wider net the moment an intrusion is detected, so a runner has to be either *extremely* stealthy, or be physically present in the building in order to jack directly into the local net. Secondly, I make the data-fortress map directly to the physical environment of the real-world facility that houses it, so if for example a runner sees that the control program for an autoturret is on the other side of a partition but has no other protection they can be like "Get me through this wall and I can turn the turret off!" and suddenly you have interaction between the run in the meat world and the run in the data world, and at the end of the day the real problem was the extreme disconnect between those two things.
Bam. You just solve the net running problem right there. Without turning it into pokemon go. And yes the IP system for 2020 worked beautifully. One IP for using a skill whether it's successful or not it's fantastic because it means you learn something. I never understood level based games it made no sense to me that if character X levels up all his skills go up with him even if hes never used them.
@@phillee427 For the record I did keep the pokemon battle of throwing programs at each other because I find that uniquely fun and charming as far as cyberpunk games go, my goal was to make it more interactive with the other part of the game.
Would love to see him run Them through cyberpunk in stead.❤ also he should be hired as Consultant for the “hardcore” mode of cyberpunk.. were all the things he mentions here Can be added in if wanted. I Think that would be an awesome edition to the game
That feeling of reading the book and having your enthusiasm go down the drain is how I felt when I got my hands on V5 when it came out. Dropped the book halfway through when it got to the part where Vampires can't use the internet lmao.
@@TheMerrox Only one clan cannot use gadgets or electronics and that is the Lasombra. The rest can just use the internet just fine, just dont show it to a conservative Prince or he'll take your head of, or talk about vampire stuff openly on the internet or the Second Inquisition or the Sheriff will take your head off. In short, kindred can still use technology provided they dont go around breaking the Masquerade and attracting the SI's attention.
@@TheMerrox Kenneth Hite's Men In Black from his other game somehow showed up on Vampire calling themselves the Second Inquisition. Because somehow the !@!%$ing Catholic church which is headed by a very liberal pope, is now full-blown on the hunt for supernaturals, because Religious Fanaticism. Whole lore is a dumpster fire.
I was thinking about getting my hands on the core book, because after watching Edgerunners I'm very curious about the setting and was willing to try it with its system, but after this review I think I'll stick to my trusted Savage Worlds and get the info about the setting (history, places, people, items) somewhere else, blending the two. No point for me in getting that system if there are some glaring errors like those you described speaking about combat. Seems like a missed opportunity to do something great.
They actually did explain the missing silencers; in Red firearms typically have integrated suppressors. Not movie silencers, but not gonna require hearing protection.
This is actually reasonable, considering that’s something (minus the massive red tape) that would be happening today, considering it’s what muffler technology is for cars today.
Any rules for rocket tours to the moon? My girlfriend wants to go to the moon and I'm working with a big guy and his crew to save enough money to afford 2 tickets.
I want to run an adventure in this system since you made the video on the jumpstart guide, and we are getting closer to finish our long DnD campaign, so this is a great video to gather a great perspective, thank you for the insight and tips.
honestly, i'd love to see what changes you'd implement to tackle the issues you found with red. be very interested in taking those "fixes" and using them myself
@@am-180 I love Night City too, I just used Savage Worlds system instead of Red (that said I did throw out all Netrunning alternate reality stuff, but I never used any of that anyway even when running 2020)
Sounds like a decent enough system, but from the looks of it we're going to need to house rule the chrome out of this beast to get it from gonk to preem nova choombatta level
Even in this review, Seth's suggested house rules are all based on his personal preferences. He likes cover rules. He likes rolling with advantage. He's moving those things into a system which doesn't strictly have need for them but leans into his own favorite style of gameplay. You're not going to find a set house rules which improves everything for everyone like a good Minecraft mod might do. There is the matter of the ranges for autofire that is straight up gonked. Yeah, that was bad. That's also something which was already amended in the errata document. Seth is clearly reading a first printing without the errata at hand.
One of the ways I've changed over the last several years is my approach to House Rules. Back in the 70s & 80s you had to house rule just about every game just to make it playable. It was the norm. Every table had their own rules differences because no one played RAW. But as more and more new ideas entered the marketplace, so did the quality of game design and player expectations. The past 7 or so years, I haven't _needed_ to House Rule games. We have incorporated House Rules because we wanted to, making a good thing better or more along our tastes. That's very different. So finding a modern game where I feel I _have_ to House Rule it, I'm far less forgiving or inclined to expend the energy, because it's no longer something I simply accept as standard procedure. One of the defenses I was told early on when I first read CP Red was, "They knew people were just going to Houserule it, anyway, so the design decisions to Combat took that in mind." I hope that was merely speculation, and not actual insight on that person's part, because while I once would have found comfort in the idea the designers planned for the detail-work to be covered by House Rules (I even would have said, "That was smart"), I feel the opposite now. Expecting players to fix your game means your game design stinks.
It's kind of funny where you landed. because the combat system was a huge sell for me. I hate getting lost in charts and trying to find what modifier is doing what and rolling for what body part and figuring out how much is exposed for cover and so on and so on. Combat just drags on and on. Nothing feels snappy. Shooting someone in the leg takes 10 minutes of calculation. As I've gotten older I just have less time, and I appreciate that the combat system is less complex. But, you can always overlay 2020s combat rules over Reds.
Coming from 2020, I was really suprised how much they pared everything down. That being said, I didn't really understand (or like) the new economy until I watched JonJon the wise interview James Hutt about how it is supposed to work. It is less important that something that a player pays 500eb for a 500eb item, and more important that a 500eb is very difficult to acquire for non-fixers. Everything is on the haggle system, so a 100eb item and can be traded for a 100eb item. Since bullets cost 1eb each, you can buy a 10eb item for ten basic bullets, or one AP bullet. I think one of the way the rules sort of fail 2020 players is not drilling into GM's heads how poor everyone is supposed to be. 2020 was a 80's/90's view of the cyberpunk, so money was cheap and edgerunners expressed themselves through their choice of brand. RED is a view of cyberpunk from our current day. RED punks don't have "jobs" like they did in CP2020. They have "hustles" which pay less (and sometimes nothing!). CP2020 punks had "brand loyalty" for weapon manufacturers, but in RED players get whatever weapon they pulled out of the box at the night market stall they found.
Which brings up a problem I have which Seth didn't really mention for whatever reason, whether the big changes to the setting that come with RED are ones anyone was really asking for.
Some things defo needed streamlining. But hiring a D&D guy to update the game was perhaps in hind sight not the best move. I know why they did it with the popularity of 5e, but still..
Was never a big fan of the Interlock d10 core mechanic, but 2020 made up for that in style and substance in the extra detail and the old cyberpunk attitude. After getting the new Red book, I felt like a lot of what made 2020 so great was drastically cut down or sterilized. Initial impressions didn't encourage me to delve much into Red. Doubtful I'll spend more for future accessories to expand Red into what I think the core book should've been. Thanks for the review as it confirmed, in practice, what I had taken away from a quick read.
Been looking forward to this review as I'm running my first session of the Jumpstart kit for Halloween this year. I ran a mini session 0/combat test the other day and my players (all DnD players except when I force a new system on them) ate it up, many of them are already talking about player concepts based more on skills than roles which I think is dope. I can see how older players used to the crunch of 2020 can be disappointed by the streamlined approach of Red but as a new group coming in for the first time I think it'll help for a time at least. Perhaps later when Black Chrome or other supplements come out we'll see an increase in item complexity which I agree could add a lot to the game.
I agree on all of your criticisms, particularly of the lack of weapon tables. As someone who loves binging on long intricate item lists for RPGs and salivating over every little item, seeing it so stripped down was disheartening, although I get it was probably for ease of access to new players. I even wrote out a full set of tables converting every weapon in the video game into the Red rules just to satisfy my list obsession. That said, RTG's website has been releasing a lot of small free DLC for it, some of which introduces specific items and weapons. Hopefully we'll see more along those lines, especially with them announcing a couple new chromebooks (although how they're described they'll be more for lore and mechanics than for lists of items).
I’m about halfway through the video. I like some of the changes Red made. Especially the stat changes. Removing appearance was a good call. Reducing the penalty for fumbles was also great. 1/10 chance of beefing it was always too harsh. But I’m not really a fan of what they did with combat. It seems way too simple now. Part of what made 2020 so deadly was you could always take a stray shot to the noggin. But with a -8 called shot in the modern version, that isn’t possible anymore. I also think the removal of the stun check was a bad idea. It seems a mash of the two systems is what I’d end up doing. Keep the new stats/basic mechanics but keep the combat from the old system.
While this system looks like fun it does feels like the developers wrote and laid out part of it, went and did something else, then came back to finish things up after mind of forgetting quite where they were in development. I'm still interested in giving it a try though. ~ Adam
Great review! I think you may have a first printing of the book and PDF, because the portion you show for "How You Get Your Stuff" on pp 117 for the first five characters are different in my copy (second print). The Rockerboy, Solo, Netrunner, Tech and Medtech have the same humanity loss, but the EMP subtraction for each are -1, -2, -2, -2, and -2 respectively. They do have an errata document on the website, but I hate referring to errata, so I was lucky I got a second printing since all the first printings were sold out.
Oh yeah, I could tell from Seth's description of autofire that he's reviewing a first printing. To be fair, he's reviewing the book he has, not the book he doesn't have.
Surprised you didn't mention how cyberware is so much more punishing in Red. Cybereyes are a friggin staple in the genre, but getting two of them (plus a couple of the obligitory upgrade options) can push you above 20 HL, dropping Empathy by 3 points. Tack on a cyberarm, a neural processor, and a chip slot, and you need to pump EMP to 6+ to even play the character. And that's without even slotting any chips (which also cause HL) or getting that nova pop-up Minami 10. Sure, you could go through Therapy to reduce your HL, but that just feels like an additional tax for getting chromed. If you have a Medtech in the party, she could do Therapy on you for free, but then she's spending her own Downtime on you instead out Hustling and MAKING money. Charging HL for foundational cyberware (which usually carries no benefit of it's own) and ALSO the upgrade options just feels like double-dipping. Especially since option capacity is already very limited. CP:R is a game I want to like, but the more I play, the more I feel I need to houserule to enjoy it.
Hell yeah! Not just a review I've been looking forward to, but dropping right when I'm mainlining another playthrough of 2077 and my gaming group is chomping at the bit to give RED a try! Any thoughts on doing quick reviews for the DLC and such? I'd love to see if Old Guns Never Die addresses some of your concerns.
Old Guns Never Die excited me at first. But ultimately, after seeing it in action, it feels like all the unique and cool weapons of the old edition have simply been transformed into generic weapons that might have some of their Modification Slots pre-filled, and are more like different names for the same generic weapon over and over. You ever have a brand of something you like get bought out by a competitor (a tool, clothing, food, whatever), and you go to pick up one of those things you really love, but find that it's now an impostor? It was like that. The formulaic nature of how Red set it up (3 Quality Tiers of X price, Template base with slots for these 3 options) doesn't give the full range of diversity. Also, don't get me started on a Medium Handgun only holding 12 rounds without losing concealability, Concealability being Yes/No versus tiered, or their insistent use of the word "clip".
@@SSkorkowsky Seems much like Shadowrun 6e and DnD5e they are trying to go into broad appeal and lose all that crunch but games need some crunch or they just feel empty to play. I'll stick with SR5e and CP2020 I think because they might be full of crunch but at least the game doesn't feel empty and generic.
@@Big_Unit I heard people swear on 3e Shadowrun or even the first edition of it due to preferring the 2050s. Unless you are more familiar w/ 5e why not go for 3e and prior instead?
@@rpgchronicler - 3e Shadowrun is the standard in my mind. It's just a revised and somewhat expanded 2nd edition which was the one that hit it big back in the day. 5e tried to be a new 3e but just bloated it further without much extra benefit, and the organization of the books was a mess. 6e also looks to be a similar mess. The 6e mechanics changes are strange and, in an effort to simplify the system, it falls short in many ways (although I've not delved too deeply so that's just my initial impressions). There's Shadowrun Anarchy for those who want a more narrative system. It loses a lot of granularity in doing so, however, as characters, equipment, etc start feeling too similar at that level. However, it's definitely less crunchy than the rest so it probably works for certain groups who like the setting but are allergic to crunch- for a short stretch. It's more narrative/discussion driven like PbtA and Fate, albeit with a little extra in cyberware, equipment, and such than those.
@@SSkorkowsky Oh damn, wasn't expecting an actual direct response! Definitely know what you mean by the "it's officialy the same, but it's clearly not the same" vibe, run into that enough times in the day to day. Thanks!
Outside of the lack of an Advantage/Disadvantage system (I hate this concept and hope if goes away, give me modifiers so I can fine tune things) I 100% agree with your assessment of Cyberpunk Red. A lot of 2020 flavor and what made it great was the world building and part of your character attitude was the gear they had. Dumbing that down, even more so then the combat, was the biggest issue I had. I can always house rule in cover and whatnot but it takes a lot more work add in that cool kit. This hit me hard too since 2020 was the first RPG that I played and was my first love till I found GURPS. Brand Loyalty is what I feel is a core concept of the setting, so much so it inspired me to make rules for my GURPS blog that got so well revived that they are actually used by people who write for the system. A generic heavy pistol is boring. A Westmister Systems HCP-15 gives they player something to let their imagination run with, even better if you also can add a General Defensive Systems HighCap-Heavy that costs more but is less likely to jam. Then through in a Fácil Power Special for a cheap Saturday night special for that added chef's kiss. But the book was still worth the pick up for me since I run Cyberpunk these days in GURPS since it does everything the original system did better to my gaming tastes but the world building and cybernetics ideas can easily be copied over. I'm hoping to run a campaign that combines the Apartment start scenario from the Jump Start Kit (which I love, such a great way to have an excuse for the characters to know each other give them something care about to fight for and a mission hub, all in one package!) with the Carnival scenario from the all time great 2020 fansite Data fortress 2020.
I'd like that you avoided the term streamlined and use the proper term dumbing down. I at the age of 18 in 1988 and learn how to run cyberpunk original. Then of course I went to 2020. So if I can learn it pre Internet new players that don't even have to know all the rules like the GM does should easily be able to get into 2020. Unless they are not giving new players enough credit.
@@phillee427 The way I look at it, making rules less clunky and easier to use with little to no lose in utility is streamlining. Taking away options that make the game funnier simply to make things simpler to use is dumbing down. Though sadly kids these days are made of less stern stuff. Millennials (and I say this as someone who's in the age group that's in the murky area that makes me either the last of Gen X or the first of the millennials) and zoomers are largely lazy and entitled and think the world revolves around them. This is why you see D&D go down the route it's going where you're in no active danger at any time and most battle are just I win. They can't handle the thought of their totally original OC, do not steal, dying or having to suffer any consequences for playing a member of generally evil race (they're just understood do systems of oppression, racism and heterosexual norms don't you know; not that they murder villagers and sacrifice babies to dark gods). Now of course this in no describes all or hell, probably even a majority of them buuuut the ones that are throw such a huge fit all the time it the create the illusion they're the majority and a lot of games are catering to that mindset.
The DV system looks like it *_should_* be an improvement over the older versions but "Simple" is only 1 lower than "Easy" used to be and "Legendary is 1 lower than "Near Impossible" so the big difference is that there are *7* DVs spanning 20 points rather than *5* Difficulty Levels spanning 20 points... and the steps between them look janky: "Everyday" is 4 higher than "Simple", "Difficult" is 2 higher than "Everyday", "Professional" is 2 higher than "Difficult", "Heroic" is 4 higher than "Professional", "Incredible" is 3 higher than "Heroic" and "Legendary" is 5 higher than "Incredible" - did they *roll a D6* to get those steps? At least the "Critical Failure" is merely "roll another D10 and subtract that from Stat+Skill+first roll (1) - much better than "now you've completely blown everything and the whole party's probably gonna die because of it" as in the earlier versions. IIRC, that's what some people were using as a house rule with CP 2020 to make it less like "you have a consistent 10% chance of completely screwing the pooch!" Totally agree that you should rule any resultant success as a "Yes, but..." - which is still an improvement over "you have shot yourself in the foot and are bleeding out and the bang has alerted Arasaka Security..."
I feel like to many games, not just table top rpgs go down this route of simplification to appeal to a broader mass. These games were and are loved because they allow complexity and getting into every detail of what model of gun you are using. Simplifying the game might seem good in theory but the result is not the same game anymore. The reason why everybody loves cyberpunk is lost. This trend is happening in nearly every rpg out there.
I started RPGs and wargaming (tabletop games such as 40K and others) in the 90s. It doesn´t matter what kind of company or group of writers publishes a new edition as the result is ALWAYS the following nowadays: Dumbing down the game in the blind belief to chase a WIDER demographic and/or a MODERN audience. Good luck hunting for this kind of unicorn. It´s a mental disease nowadays! How about improving the game? Nah, just make it simpler. Meanwhile they lose their target customer group as these people can´t enjoy the game anymore for lack of details in the current game. A thing like brand loyalty exists but only to a certain degree. Better go back to a previous edition instead. A few minutes ago I watched a review from two Germans about Shadowrun 6.0. Same problem as in the newest Cyberpunk game: Streamlining in the vain hope to gain access to a larger number of wallets.
Hey Seth, have you considered doing a video on learning to run a game in a setting you're not familiar with? I've been interested in Cyberpunk for a while, but the biggest thing keeping me from trying it is the thought of running a game set in a universe I know nothing about. As a GM, it feels like that's something you can't just learn as you go.
Honestly, best practice is to learn a little about the setting. But, that being said, you don't have to know everything, just the broad strokes. After all, something different happens in quite literally every game out there, so what does it matter if something acts differently than it is supposed to in 'canon'? It's your game, and you're the gm. You are the god of that setting, with ultimate power. So you can decide that, say, arasaka owns that building when, instead, militech should, in the game,book, whatever.
Ryan's advice is solid. Learn the big broad strokes first. That's most of what you'll need to run the world. During adventures, you can focus in on the minutiae of some specific thing. Now both you and your players have some broad general strokes on the world and finer details on that specific thing. Later, in another adventure, find another specific thing you want to focus on. After a while you and your players have a really solid understanding of a lot. Something in the word doesn't fit your vision, that's cool. Follow your vision. It's your game and you should feel ownership. But what's far more important than knowing all the fine details about the larger world is that you can present a world to your players that _feels_ larger than they see. At the same time, it doesn't matter if you know every tiny piece of world lore if you aren't presenting it in a way that feels like a giant world.
I had Cyberpunk pre-ordered in Europe for damn near a year, it took about 9 months to get to me just so I could get the bits and mortar PDF (bits and mortar sucks in Europe, least for me in Ireland). I was excited as hell, wanted to love the system but... Yeah. The combat really missed for me, and while there were bits of it I loved, I went back to Cyberpunk 2020. Cyberpunk Red IS amazing, but it just falls apart in some areas. Right now, I integrated the rules I like from Red, and want to run the Red setting but using 2020 rules. ...Just need to get my players to start a cheeky little... Corporate war maybe...
Cyberpunk has always been one of those games I've wanted to try but my group had no interest until the anime I feel like this edition is going to be very popular with young people
Yep, the anime has already caused 3 separate groups of players to ask me to GM CPRed for them. They probably appreciate the streamlined approach but I miss those huge weapon tables from 2020.
I definetely agree with the review. While Cyberpunk Red cut away a lot of the fat and crunch of 2020, it also feels like they put "muh balance" up on a pedestal, damn everything else. The way they nerfed the Lifepath and weapon variety hurt the most. Going year by year for a character and seeing what crazy stuff happened to them was always great. They took that out because "something bad or good happening each year is unbalanced" Aside from all the gripes you had with combat I found it really weird how some weapons require insane BOD requirements that really shouldn't. Why does using a full auto shotgun require me to be borged up halfway to cyberpsychosis? (it's not even full auto, it can fire twice a turn. Again "muh balance"). You can find videos online of regular dudes dual wielding AA-12s Overall, I still like Red, but I feel like they stripped a lot of the options and cooler parts of 2020 to make it more "balanced" and also, let's be real here, to appeal to the casuals. I know that's an eye-rolling statement, but it's pretty clear that's what happened. Following the hype of 2077, a lot of newcomers discovered the 2020 game and since most of them never even played a TTRPG before, found it too complex (which in some areas, it admittedly is). So they streamlined Red to a ridiculous extent I hope future books give Red more options, but they wrote themselves into a corner with a lot of mechanics.
Lasers were in the novel Neuromancer and Count Zero, the sequal to Neuromancer; the bibles of the cyberpunk genre. Odd the rpg doesn't have them. Great review, by the way. I'll stick with cyberpunk 2020.
Been looking forward to this! Kind of stuck in a rut between wanting to start a game of RED, Call of Cthulhu, or D&D with my gaming group. I was reading through the RED core rulebook, and I was already planning on merging 2020 rules into RED to fill in the gaps they left out or simplified too much. The economy they set up is made for bartering btw, at least from an article written by the designer of the economic system. It assumes that people aren't carrying eddies anymore, but are trading goods. So you trade an everyday item for an everyday item, and stuff like that. However, your idea of ranging prices is something I believe the designer said to go for in a Q&A, as while the prices are made for bartering, that doesn't mean fixers and vendors won't upcharge. The weapon layout I 100% agree with. I think I'm going to overhaul the RED weapon descriptions and combine it with 2020 stuff (concealability, customizability, etc.). Players can keep track of that stuff when they write down what their weapons do. Same thing with the modifiers for running while shooting and stuff. I plan to make a cheat sheet adding those back in. Thanks for some more ideas to include at my table based on the homebrew rules you guys are doing!
Funny story: I'm a cook at a table top gaming restaurant and we hired a dishwasher, he's from Africa, so after playing cp2077 I got the bright idea one day to say "sup choomba" he replied "I don't speak swahili" I near died laughing 😃 😀 😄 😁 🤣 😂
Great review - I'm a CP2020 vet as well. Looks like some major editing got skipped. The whole generic weapon name & cost thing makes no sense whatsoever. If they did the CP2020 thing of every gun is subtly different they could have put more detail & immersion in one table than they ended up scattering across three tables in various parts of the book. They wasted space and made it harder, and made it less fun/immersive. What was the purpose? Also, they've shot themselves in the foot - who's going to buy a CP-R weapons supplement when everything costs the same and behaves the same? They really should have come to a bunch of veterans and given them a pre-release PDF under an NDA and listened to the feedback and implemented it. Some parts seem much better while other parts look like a major step backwards. With a print run already out there, the flaws seem unredeemable and there really is no excuse for such sloppiness.
The most damning praise ever heard is “we loved the older edition so much that when we came to this game, the changes made just made us stop and hesitate on whether to play the new edition.”
I'm definitely coming at it with fresh eyes so overall the game seems pretty great to me. Probably some things here or there I'd tweak when actually running it (I like the idea of giving IP for fumbles). As for the brands and such for the weapons, I'm thankful that I'm a pretty decent graphic designer myself so making my own list using actual brand names, maybe adding an extra column for the quality and such shouldn't be hard to do.
You should share it with other fans when it's done - depending on how CDPR is about that sort of thing of course (please!). I'm reminded of the great resources I found just poking around Reddit for Call of Cthulhu when I first got into it(simple Google Drive file sharing stuff). It's such a gift when fans/GMs share the cool things they made with each other!
I do love Cyberpunk Red. I just wish not everything was so 'streamlined'. I remember the starter box rule set, was, in my opinion, a bit of a mess. They had these Burstfire rules that were absolutely deadly to use. Squeeze the trigger once, make one roll, and depending on the margin of success, so many bullets hit, roll damage for each singular one. On an assault rifle, a death sentence. They did improve that, but they turned it now to "Autofire", which has it's own skill (at double the cost) and feels like you are not getting a proper return of investment for spending 10 bullets from your clip, and rolling on a higher difficulty table. On an assault rifle, the damage difference feels minimal. Suppressing Fire feels like it could use a little improvement as well, because you are rolling against the enemy in order to force them into cover to suppress them. But what if they beat your roll? Well apparently that means they don't run for cover... but wouldn't they get hit then instead? Or maybe drop prone? I don't know, I just feel like those particular rules are not completely done baking in the oven yet. Any other opinions here? Am quite happy enough with the combat system as is, even if it can feel like playing XCom sometimes (Move on the grid, have a percentage chance to hit with a weapon, end turn).
I'm not very knowledgeable on the way shadowrun does things however I am definitely curious to know how you feel the cyberpunk core book is unfinished?
As a big fan of the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic in D&D5e, I love the idea of bringing it into RED to address some of the missing modifiers and issues with combat. Taking a turn to aim? Get Advantage. Partial cover? Disadvantage to the shooter. Dropping prone? Disadvantage to be hit at range, but advantage to be hit in close quarters. Running and gunning? Disadvantage to both shooters. I also completely agree with the layout issues you bring up, especially repeated tables and the like. Trying to get a clear picture on some things is not made easy thanks to how they set up the book. At least they have fixed a few things (like autofire having different DVs, or the EMP loss for starting cyberware) in the errata and digital versions, but it's not as convenient for the dead-tree edition fans.
Yeah man, the lack of brand names really hurt my immersion. I could forgive almost everything I found wrong with it, but man, Cyberpunk is supposed to be style above all else, how can you flaunt your piece if your piece is a generic Heavy Pistol (tm)?
@@SSkorkowsky I wish you had done a bit more on the setting and the revised Post-Arasaka Bombing world. If you ever feel like doing a follow-up video, I think this would be a good idea. But I admit, lore is my jam.
The rules for weapons, economy, and to an extent combat, feels like its for the GM, not actual play. These aren't things that ought be core rules. They're the type of thing you'd expect on one of those cardboard quick reference blockers. Simple rules for quick on the cuff creation, instead of the deep systems players get in to. I deeply hope we get some good expansion, but i don't expect it. Feels like they'd need a new edition entirely.
Back in the 90s when I was in college, one of the first computer programs I made was a randomized lifepath generator for Cyberpunk 2020. It was one of those things that helped me move from being a physics major to being a computer science major which started my career for 25+ years.
Following your passion is alway the best way to navigate life.
@@peterdickinson4599 And in this specific case following your passion was also following the money.
I remember writing a traveller character generator program in the 1980s. And again in the 1990s. And again in the 2010s :)
@@_Woody_ You know it's hard to be alive annd exist nowadays without money.
@@StabYourBrain Never has been different, choomba. I am glad for everyone who can combine passion and pay. Best thing that can happen to you.
The idea of a house rule called "You remember the time Robocop shot that guy in the dick?" that creates half cover conditions made me laugh a great deal.
And that concept is very much cyberpunk.
Right down to the title! 😉
Really fair review, and echoed many of my criticisms of the game. For a setting that emphasizes style and flair they stripped a lot of the style (I.e. brand recognition) out of it in favor of going with something that feels really generic. My only hope is they have supplements planned to introduce this back into the game.
Supplements?! No! Game companies don't do that
They actually did! It's a PDF called "the old guns still work." It's a guide on how to convert old guns into cyberpunk red!
@@roarshach13 I have it. It’s not really the same as the Blackhand supplement from 2020, and the conversion method is super clunky imo.
Seems like the existing streamlined stuff might be a good start for new players, but then we'll need to houserule in modifiers and the best cinematic parts for the "full" experience. Wonder if there are good fan-made rules supplements for this purpose out- I'd be surprised if there's nothing out there.
yeah Black Chrome is coming, they teased it on their twitter, illustrations and weapon models, and companies
The perfect game system for people who really wanna stay at your house.
I get that reference!
hey, listen
you didn't need to post that
why? why did you post that?
@@littlegiantj8761 because he wanted to ask who's ready for tomorrow
@@rocksteadyska6933 Or maybe he wants to see who wants to go to the moon?
I see what you did there.
I played a bit of Cyberpunk 2020 in the nineties, and one thing that impressed me was the attention to detail about the many martial arts styles that were available. You could have a jujitsu master fight a kung fu master and their specializations mattered.
Had to double check...
yeah! Scott Brown is in the Rulebook, even in the german edition.
Proud of you Seth!
Still my favorite warstory of yours
No joke I bought this rulebook specifically because of that reference. Any company willing to make a nod to our man Seth is worth a little extra attention.
I'm making it in-home canon that Scott Brown Realty LLC has been in existence since 1918 just in case I decide to run Call of Cthulhu someday! It's such a great story and it's ripe for spicing up an adventure.
@@brianlawson3757 Ha! Have them be the Agency that bought Corbin House to long after the events of the Haunting and drop hints to the investigators that they're buying up the properties the party visits for some unknown reason. :)
@@brianlawson3757 But why stop there, someone had to kick the Natives out because they had a showing.
@@Syaniiti
That doesn't sound like fun and that's a theme I wouldn't bring to my table. I certainly wouldn't want to play a game with themes of colonization and genocide of an entire people. However, I'm pretty sure you're just trolling because you think being edgy and insensitive makes you cool. It doesn't.
The pricing thing was the first thing I decided to homebrew out of. For example, I broke down the Fast Food Meal at 10eb: 5eb for the burger by itself, 3eb for fries, 2eb for just a soda. Say you meet up with someone at a burger place, and need to order something to seem like you have another reason to be there. You wouldn’t have to pay 10eb. If you just want fries and a drink for 5eb instead, you can do that. If you play a big guy who usually orders the super sizes because he’s always hungry, it could be 6eb for a bigger burger, 5eb for super fries, and 3eb for a big drink for a meal that actually costs 14eb.
I like this method, I think I'm going to try to do similar modifications across the board. Split things up, offer nitty gritty piecemeal pricing (and combat modifiers, for example) for my group since the majority of us have been playing TTRPGs for some time now.
bad choice
@@WilkesBarreWrestlingwhy?
Which is completely pointless consideribg people just write off 300 eb a month for these kind of minor expenses.... i would not charge my players for burgers, fries or whatever.... we are here to play awesome cyberpunk, not bookkeeping sim.
Just nice to know what something is worth to give some perspective
Bruh wtf, if my gm makes me individually track fries I am leaving that game
RED was my introduction to tabletop Cyberpunk, and my group and I have been having a blast. It was a breath of fresh air for those of us who've only had a chance to play 5e. That said, I am hoping they release updates to the cover and aiming systems. I get the impression that RED is meant to be built on and expanded, so I'd be surprised if these kinds of things don't show up in another year or two.
It sounds like we need a list of Red houserules incorporating the good stuff from the old edition for everyone to use.
love that you took appropriate time to review it. thats what makes your channel so good. keep it up !
I just noticed you got yourself a silver play button! Good for you, Seth! Your channel is awesome and you totally deserve that recognition! Yours is one of the few channels that I enjoy enough that when the notification pings on my phone, I make sure to watch whatever just dropped as soon as I get a chance. 😎👍
I've just started GMing a game of red! I was super stoked to find your GM tips, you've been a massive help for me. Awesome to see you review Red finally!
In our first session we ran Getting Paid, and when the players tried to search the warehouse online, I told them "You find a real estate listing." Unfortunately they did not take the bait.
Next time ;)
NICE me to an I love that cyberpunk red is getting more attention
28:50 I feel like shotguns in *most* TRPGs aren't handled particularly well. The fantasy of the shotgun is basically the two-handed axe of the gun world, It's "close-range stopping power: the weapon"... but most TRPGs turn it into a sort of weird AOE crowd control weapon even though I've never seen shotguns in anything, fiction or otherwise, being used to shoot multiple targets at once. Shotgun pellets just don't spread that dramatically, and you wouldn't want them to!
Great vid Seth
Problems with RED and Fixes
1) Layout is horrible... You have to flip to 4 chapters to fully grasp throwing a grenade. Lore chapters are mixed between rules and chapters like Putting the Cyber in Cyberpunk is completely redundant.
Solution - Cut the corner out of non-rule chapters for quick flips
2) Lacking Gear Variety... Players begin with too much money and have most of what they want from the gate with little to look forward to. There's not even some obvious ones like a silencer attachment or reflex sight (For Laser Sight We gave it a +1 Hit, but allows targets of any REF to dodge).
Solution - If the inventor can invent, the GM should to and make a huge list of everything missing. Also take the effects of exotic brand weapons and allow the to be applied to any weapon for the price difference. Weird the only malarian arm is a pistol for example. Buying excellent quality cyberware should have a minor skill bonus.
3) No Dual Wielding... Easy fix it provides +1 ROF, but a penalty to hit equal to the total d6s of the two weapons. Same applies to firing 2 handed weapons with 1 hand.
4) Armor Ablation Way Too Crunchy... A GM having to ablate every hit and track the ablation of 10 different goons is a pain and is very time consuming. Not to mention added math from melee halfing SP.
Solution - Mass Combat Rule, the GM reduces goon armor by 1/5 round up to reduce more and piercing rounds simply add +2 Damage, but armor does not ablate. Math comes out to the same hits to kill with most weapons.
5) Heavy Armor is Terrible... Everyone has 11 SP, why, because any other armor is the wrong choice. Heavy armor penalized you to oblivion, costs a fortune, and takes forever to repair.
Solution - Have the REFLEX penalty only apply to head armor. It makes sense and still allows you a penalized dodge vs bullets and the ability to aim. Plus heavy armored fores would be incentified to wear lighter head armor to avoid penalties encouraging head shots.
6) Melee Overpowered... Melee weapons and martial arts ignoring half armor is annoying math and makes them sooo much better than guns. Plus it's weird your BODY does not effect melee weapon damage. Their pricing is weird too, a lead pipe could cost you $100.
Solution - Do not ignore half armor, simply add 1 d6 damage to unarmed at ROF 2, or 2d6 at ROF 1.
7) Autofire is a Trap... Do the math of special ammo costs and how high your hit has to be to reliably autofire and it simply isn't worth an x2 skill investment when compared to explosives or someone specing more in damage with single fire. Why? between aimed shots and the way higher crit probability of 5d6 vs 2d6 with a the result multiplied, you'll see the same damage results for single fire vs autofire.
Solution - Easy, multiply d6s rolled, not damage, much higher crit probability, still not worth it to me, but viable.
8) Vague Skill Descriptions... Very minor, but a trend in modern gaming. Skills simply need some sample difficulties and tasks. Also demolitions being an x2 skill should let you craft grenades like a tech. Also also, there are some redundant skill bloat like why is there Style and Personal Grooming those should be the same.
9) Character Sameness... Everyone wears the same armor and prioritizes the same stats REF, DEX, WILL/BODY/EMP, TECH/INT, LUCK in that order. Why, REF is firearm hit and has to be at 8 to dodge bullets which is essential to survival. DEX is dodge and also melee hit, and so on.
Allow dodging firearms when adjacent. It makes sense too, also allow luck to apply rerolls which are better. Luck maybey could have been called CHARISMA and have taken some of the social skills out of INT in my opinion.
Bonus Notes
1) Exploding 10 is a good mechanic, but option is lackluster as 99% of the time it would have succeeded. Allow exploding dice to combo into another attack or skill roll for variety.
2) Raising Roles above 5 is rarely worthwhile. It should be a fixed rate at the medium range. Pro Tip, prioritize Evasion first.
3) Fumble - When a 1 rolls backward and rolls higher than your luck it's a fumble and has a chart effect. Fumble table however award a bonus luck use up to max luck.
4) Netrunning is better, but still slows the game to a crawl as Netrunners get 3 rounds to everyone's 1 and for very little effect at high risk. It's like you have an intense gunfight. The netrunner is going to hack the lights to turn them off and give everyone escape. The whole game pauses for a several turns of Magic the Gathering to maybe turn off a light, and maybe kill the netrunner.
5) Range Tracking - Printed a custom character sheet with range slots to fill in next to weapon. Helps allot. Remember the first 3 range increments is where most combat happens. 3,+3,+6 spaces, the next increment is +12 spaces that's most a battlemat if using
The game is still fun. Really glad you got to the layout on this book being my biggest issue. Thanks Seth.
Thanks for this review, it touches on all my own issues and praises for this sytem. In the end I feel like I may just pull portions of red and incorporate them into 2020 along with the homebrewed rules from Interlock Unlimited
I'm kind of in the same boat. As it stands rather something I will definitely not be playing however I will strip mine for any interesting resources. I'll just tweak my 2020 game as well.
That does sound like the best plan: finding that sweet spot somewhere between the overcomplicated rules of C20 and the too-stripped-down approach of CRed, getting the best of both worlds as far as possible.
27:16 Scott Brown survived the 4th Corporate War and has some nice offices in the city I see. Great video, really can't wait to see more of the Time of the Red; A lot of possibilities Lore wise before the 2077 events kick in.
Haven't played 2020 but as someone who has been running a CPR game for about a year, I tend to agree with the complaints. I tend to find that players do tend to just stand around shooting at the enemy rather than acting like they're in a John Woo movie. Hopefully we'll get some DLC to alter that.
I think the game is made to cause attrition to pcs rather than everything having immediate and deadly consequences. Attrition favours a tank and spank style of gameplay. If you know the enemy might cause serious damage, even straight out kill you if they get to do their thing, you will be more likely to apply ambushes and, in a straight up combat scenario, apply tactics to take them out as fast as possible, including taking extra Actions and using multiple weapons etc. I'm doubtful if this can be fixed without redesigning the whole Combat System around the idea that everything should have great immediate effect or very dangerous effect over one to two rounds. I think dropping hp to around 20 max would be one way to do it.
Would also change to move + Action to just having the ability to take multiple actions per turn, moves or otherwise and giving a negative penalty for taking more than two.
Could also lean into destructible terrain - when a player ducks down behind a kitchen counter or something, have the bad guys fire at where they were trying to shoot them through the cover. The game mechanics don’t let you deal damage with the same shot that finally breaks the cover but the NPCs don’t know that. From their in-universe perspective they don’t notice the change in initiative rounds.
And, of course, as Raymond Holt once said; “Do you know what else is interesting? *Grenades*.” The rules for throwing them got buried in the grappling rules (same mechanics whether you’re throwing a grenade or some Maelstrom gonk) but I would let them be lobbed over cover as a called shot.
You are not throwing enough grenades then. That, hold action and autofire are the things that will make character move a lot. It is perfectly viable and legal to hold your action and shoot when someone peeks out of cover to shoot (That's one reason why initiative matters SO MUCH, since you can only hold until the end of the turn)
@@procrastinatinggamer Grenades will deal full damage to you if they blast your cover, if I'm not mistaken. And they are cheap. ;)
12:00 networks do actually work kinda like this. Usually there’s a local network that then connects to the internet, but sometimes specific networks will be disconnected from the internet as a whole for security reasons. The big thing is that if you can access it legitimately, you also are connected enough to hack it
Also any connection to a bigger public network like internet are known vector of attack and monitored for that very reasons. Even if a network is connected to the internet you can still have reasons to go to the facility physically to facilitate or speed up hacking, also with remote hacking your attempt can always be twarted by just disconnecting the network from the internet.
I've recently purchased Red after watching the netflix series, and I'm thankful that you put this video out.
I think my greastest disapoitment is the weapons. Browsing through the old edition really excited me, cause there were so many different weapons. So to see that they've stripped it down so much honestly hurts a little, since you've lost the brand recognition as you've said. I'm personally planning on just using the old weapon table for this new game for my players, though I'll have to see if that's viable.
But despite that, I'm still excited to play. Even if it'll take home homebrewing and house ruling, I'm looking forward to some cyberpunk.
Some of the free DLCs have started to fix this. “Old Guns Never Die” gives advice on converting the old 2020 guns into Red, “Twelve Days of Gunmas” brings a bunch of 2020 faves into Red (including the Cityhunter, the fancy revolver from the Scott Brown Incident), “Woodchipper’s Garage” brings in a bunch of heavier weapons. We also have “Black Chrome” right around the corner, which R.Tal dropped a teaser of on Twitter about an hour or two ago that gives me the impression that they’re bringing back more of 2020’s gun porn.
@@procrastinatinggamer You can convert them, but thats just turning them into same generic shlock, maybe with higher quality as baseline which can just be given to generics.
I can crack open my cp2020 book and cite benefits and drawbacks of ronin light(rof 30, wa+1, 450eb) and sa-80(rof 20, wa+2, 600eb) have over each other. and why you should never buy ovepriced pos towa type-99.
How about the militech trio
Dragon, less accuracy than its brothers but without silencer concealable under coat, nice pdw alternative, with decent 6d6-1 dmg at not that insane price 700eb
MK IV, more accurate version of dragon and capable of firing both 6.5h(at 6d6-1) and 5.56(5d6) doesnt beat ronin in 5.56 but at 6.5h this gun is amazing and still affordable at 800eb.
MK V, unique weapon, slow automatic 6.5 ETE at rof 4, prototype of something you cant just achieve with custom upgrades, nice good 9d6 damage, amazing range for assault rifle at 600m but naturally rather expensive at 1500eb.
They have a book coming out fairly soon, Black Chrome, which will increase the kind of gear, uses corp names and models. SO lots of new toys soon.
@@brunojesusguilperez When you have a setting where your style and apperance is so important, not having a finer choice in what weapons you bring just feel like a waste of potential. If I have tabels for what kind of style of clothes I can wear, why is my heavy pistol basically the same as a random ganger I find on the street? It feels generic when there was potential for world building, like Seth says in 25:00.
@@brunojesusguilperez there was always contenders and problem was more pronounced with pistols, i still have no idea why have 9mm or below other than to arm npcs, but npcs need to be armed too.
Where i disagree, is the core premise of the game, i had a person get into argument about guns, buy scifi starrior, the absolute garbage at 60 eb and blow at it enough money to make it usable weapon.
Why have 10mm when 11mm exists and is not much more expensive, well if i decide to turn my pistol into selective semi automatic 11mm will have too much recoil for me to fire even with cyberarm so i need to go down a caliber, thats a more niche use but its there.
Of course everyone could just buy cyborg rifle and run with it, but realistically that doesnt happen, only outliers are extremely expensive guns, yeah sure they wont get used much because cheaper guns do stuff better.
But then everyone had their favorites, i thought id never use sternmeyer m95a4 till i had installed 2 on drone, gun who normally is not better than ronin suddenly got nice in massive magazine i could put on machine that cant reload.
So in other words ....we need Cyberpunk Red Second Edition. Clean up the errata, re-edit the information into a cleaner format, and update combat and the market like Seth mentioned. Basically I think the game will need a major over haul that would just make it a new edition all together, but that's just me.
I have both CP 2020 and Red. Its great to see a new edition of CP come out but I have much of the same concerns that Seth has. Many of the gamers around me are seasoned and trying to tell someone there is no bonuses or penalties for prone shooting, aiming etc will not sit well with them.
In addition, Jon Jon The Wise has a great UA-cam page devoted to Cyberpunk. From what I have seen, I would call him very 'pro" cyberpunk with little criticisms of the new game. He does get interviews with R Talsorian game designers which is cool and provides good insight into some of the questionable game design choices that were made. However, I really like Seth's counter points and criticisms of the game. It provides some much needed constructive criticism and praise for the game. With all that said, I still want to play the game.
Well, if one looks at the errata document for Red, it seems like there's a lot. By page count, there has been actually more errata to D&D 5e Players Handbook which is a shorter book to begin with. Wizards of the Coast didn't rush out a new edition two years into the print run of 5e, and I see little reason for R Talsorian to do that now.
@@lordzaboem It would be nice if RT Games produced a new book with cleaned up errata. November 2022 marks two years since CP Red was released, so RT Games should have plenty of feedback to see what errata needs to be fixed etc. After all, lees errata is less arguing, less confusing rules and it helps make the game go quicker. It is funny how this game has been out for two years but has been completely overshadowed by their computer spinoff Cyberpunk 2077. Maybe R Talsorian needs to hop on the band wagon and make a book version of Cyberpunk 2077 after all.
Nah, they have already incorporated the errata and there is tons of supplements out and more coming(Gear Book)
You've got a show'in !!!
Thanks Seth. Any chance of you posting house rules yall use? I loved that feature of your review/overview in Travaller.
Also, way to go George. I hope Seth is as good with you now as I have seen him be on Glass Cannon.
hehe, I often say that Seth is a great GM and terrible player, but that's not really true anymore. He is a great player, when he doesn't BOMBSHELL!
@@FuriousJorge never go full BOMBSHELL
First, I’ve run my players through two 2020 campaigns and one RED. We all agree with your review except on Netrunning and the economy. We didn’t netrun in 2020 for obvious reasons, but in RED it was still a side-game, and not a fun one at that. It didn’t work out the way the authors intended it to, and having it all depend on a single unmodified role ability gave it a frustrating sameness. The economy doesn’t fit the setting. If there’s little trade or industry, who is making this technology? We were lost. Is this post-apocalyptic or cyberpunk? It feels that the authors couldn’t make up their minds. That being said, vehicle combat is atrociously bad. There are two things I noticed in the video that need pointing out. You’re using the first printing of the rules. The auto fire chart is wrong and was corrected in later printings. The other thing was the DVs. It should be noted that you have to beat the DV listed in order to succeed. So, if the DV of an everyday task is 13, you have to roll 14 or better to succeed. Finally, your review doesn’t make RED sound like a good game, and there are way more things wrong with it than you pointed out. You admit making a lot of house-rules to fix things, and we agree. We were very disappointed on how RED turned out, and we thank you for your honesty. Other reviewers have claimed that RED was the best thing ever, but it’s just not.
Separating thoughts and feelings about different editions/versions of anything is a herculean effort. Different editions of D&D have the same brand name, but at the table can play vastly different to the point of seeming like a different game with an attempt to dress it the same. I'm glad you put in effort to play it through and give yourself time to digest Red rather than an off the cuff review. Your professionalism shows and is appreciated. Does the ingame Scott Brown company compensate your characters for the free marketing you've been providing?
Yeah, when the river of, "When are going to review Red?!" questions started flooding in and blanketing every single video I posted, starting about 2 milliseconds after the PDF released, it was difficult to explain how no one actually wanted my initial thoughts on it because the old grognard in me was screaming with agony at every single tiny change. I've watched enough old-timers in every other game go on rants about how the new edition is a crime against their childhood, and I promised myself long ago I wasn't going to be like that. I'd give it time to rate it off its own merits and not my rose-colored memory of an edition that I'd house-ruled to the point it wasn't even recognisable (he says casually, as if he doesn't remember his initial and passionate reaction when D&D dared to change editions on him decades ago).
@Seth Skorkowsky cough cough I just figured I'd let ya know I'm feeling the grognard in me as I look through Wizards of the Coast's changes to stuff in the One D&D / update to 5e (or whatever they're calling it now) playtest material... >.> lol. (I've played since 2e, and yeah changes are usually a mixed bag, but if they're substantial enough it just needs to be a new edition and not a half-baked hot fix).
When I was working on translating this book in Italian I read the Scott Brown callback and I almost fell from my chair.
That's exciting!
In the street scene at about 4:37, the guy on the right is a portrait of Mike Pondsmith, designer of the Cyberpunk games.
When I run cp red I used the old blackhand streetweapons guide to jury rig a bunch more weapons into the game and that was a huge game changer in my game, especially coming from playing 2020 a fair bit.
Can you elaborate? Sounds awesome.
@@jaredtalksdungeons1402 I basically threw out all the cyberpunk red weapons and wholesale use the street weapons guide. I wasn't happy with the conversion rules put out so I just don't use them. sometimes there are tweaks made for balance but otherwise i don't change anything
I wrote my bachelors thesis about CP20, CP77 and CPRed and I was rather disappointed by CPRed. There is so much great and funky stuff in there, but overall It just felt like it lacks the rough soul that made the old system so special. Especially glad to see I am not the only one who feels that the weapon and pricing aspects both took something essential away for the sake of simplicity.
As it is now I don't run CP games anymore. I just can't bring myself to do commit to do the Frankenstein project of combining the parts I like of CP20 and CPRed. Hope that will change some day^^
Can you hybrid the rules? Take the equipment and combat systems from 2020 and over lay them over Red. A best of both worlds.
How clean do you think it would be to mod in the combat modifier chart from 2020 and the partial cover = force shooter to make a called shot?
I tried it and it works fine, honestly. You might have to change some of the Modifiers, as they don't really apply to the RED rules, such as shooting a target with 14 REF (which is unlikely to have/get in RED) but aside from that, you can just apply most of them no problem at all.
Where did Jack get those cool sunglasses? He always has such wonderful costumes and backgrounds.
As a new player who played the Jumpstart Kit, delved a bit into the 2020 just to fleshout some extra rules that didn't exist in the Kit and then day-1 the Red edition, I agree with most, if not all of your points (except the price categories, I find that in my not-so-good-at-math brain finds this categorising easier and quicker to understand and then roleplay merchants who have raised prices, e.g. instead of 100 eb pistol, they ask 175 for it).
But I honestly think that, without having actual experience with 2020 outside of kinda reading it, the best of both worlds is that Red is a trimmed down version that can be easily understood and the players who want that something extra, we can implement almost directly from 2020. Don't want to have universal ammunition? Check the 2020 rules. Want more item / upgrade ideas that are not in the book? Check 2020 etc. Might not be the best writing (especially with the duplicate tables taking up space that could have been these extra stuff), but would be doable more easily than not, from what rules I took for the sessions of Red I run, and we have tons of fun. 2020 would be too heavy to run IMO, based on my party's needs and wants.
Thank you for an awesome review!
could you do a how-to series detailing some of the specifics of combat and netrunning? i'm a new player and your style is very easy to understand and apply. thanks seth!
There is a Facebook group that will help you out. It breaks down cyberpunk red piece by piece.
There is an errata for the auto fire DV's. They updated the pdf and also have a link to it on their site.
for what is worth Scott Brown is a cannon for all games our group play. from call of cthulhu to Delta green to traveller. And we will be playing some Dungeon Crawl Classics sometime and Scott Brown will be there too...
Thanks for the excellent content Seth.
Thanks for the honest review, I bounced off it after playing and we have stuck with Cyberpunk 2020.
This review is bang on, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really was disappointed by the lack of branding, in a world about brands (corps) being everywhere
I played RED and did enjoy my time, but It felt like this game was a test run or that there is a more advanced version their waiting to release. The game definitely felt like they stripped out a lot of stuff for the sake of streamlining. And I could feel that never having had the opportunity to play the original.
Virtual Light and All Tomorrow's Parties are my favourite full novels from Gibson, and the way he writes about the Bridge in both is why.
Years back I was working a job that included a ton of data-entry. It was mind-numbing work and I hadn't discovered Audible yet. So I had 4-5 audiobooks I'd cycle through as background noise. It's kind of like when I do laundry I put in a movie I've seen countless times. It was great because there were times I'd need to focus my attention on work and might stop listening to the book for a while, but when I turned my mind back to it, I automatically knew where I was. Among them was Virtual Light read by Frank Muller (also my favorite narrator). Over the years, (according to my iPod) I listened to that book over 20 times.
This game desperately needs Chromebooks and Blackhand's Street Weapons 2020 books
I first found this channel looking for Cyberpunk Red vids when the jumpstart kit came out, great to see the full review! I found the generic equipment just as disappointing as a new player/referee - hypercapitalism is a central theme of the genre, standard templates and fixed pricing don't really fit in a world where everything and everyone is a product to be marketed.
Nothing's stopping you from naming the generic guns. Mechanically it makes sense to offer generic profiles for a wide swath of weapons that would otherwise overlap each other pointlessly. If they stand out enough, just use the Old Guns Never Tire pdf to make them into an Exotic. The world is going through a rough transitionary period in 2045. The core book reflects that with a good, generic groundwork for everything else to build on, imo. I'm sure Black Chrome will give us the goods.
@@abesolutzero It makes sense mechanically, it's just kinda boring - same for old guns never die, which 'flattens' everything into the Red templates (tho I did use it). Overlap is indeed mostly pointless for the game mechanics, but there's a balance between gameplay and roleplay and the gear game in Red leans to the wrong side for me personally. Anyway yeah, I heard Black Chrome is adding more, so looking forward to it!
@@RobeCobe I mean, it's just the core book, so I'm glad they're focusing on laying down a solid groundwork before going into everything else. All the new weapons, etc in the DLCs that've come out are so far looking pretty promising.
Ever notice Jack has great trigger discipline?
Great review Seth. I agree there is some clunkiness to the rulebook and system, and yet I always find myself coming back to Night City! The lore is incredible and I feel I'm able to run sessions where the players and I really get immersed in the dark future that the book portrays.
I've been playing this for over a year and I really enjoy it! It is downright streamlined compared to The Witcher TTRPG. (same company.)
Sorry i must disagree. Witcher rpg is great. It has far better rules then cp red. New incarnation of cyberpunk shuould be more like witcher rpg and less like it is now.
Personal thoughts: I totally agree the lack of some shooting mecanics, as well as a full crafting system, witch is something that i love at any worldbulding heavy TTRPG. But the generalization of the guns and setting those standart monopoly like prices isn't That bad these days if you think of:
By the year the jumpstart kit was announced, some friends and I began to hype the Cyberpunk TTRPG franchise and engaged to read the 2020 rule book. We were a bit more young and unexperienced around tactic games mechanics and had a hell of a headache trying to interpret these rules. After reading RED I finally get the purpose of each of these editions based on the time they were developed.
While 2020 catched the old school era of TTRPG with heavily mechanic based games, RED is dealing now with a new generation of players, more interested in entering this world by narrative means rather than the game aspects (both are great and appreciated, I just see the shift of interest regarding my fellow players).
With that been said, RED mechanics are more focused to welcome new players rather than refresh the Old Guard's Nostalgia. That is why they only give detailed info about the Cyberware and Gear at the Economy section instead of the beginning, because the first pages were designed to simplify the world for those are coming fresh. Besides, it is done without hurting one of the mains proposals of the Cyberpunk Combat System, Friday Night Firefight (I'll be calling FNF), that is making every fight painful and every blade or bullet deadly, because no sane citizen would enjoy starting a gunfight.
And, please, don't get me wrong; I've played TT games with heavily mechanic based economy regarding different prices and Looter Shooter Videogames, which try to state the crucial difference between to weapons of the same type but different manufacturers or just different stats. These thing do make a difference, but only at it's respective universes and for it's respective games' proposals.
For RED, it is enough for a fresh player to know only what is an auto rifle and what is a shotgun, what is cheap and what is efficient, leaving the worldbulding labels for those who want a deeper dive in night city at later games. For storytelling purposes, I like to think that, at the Time of the Red, when the the traditional corporations failed, standart weapons don't make a difference anymore, ans the default prices of the market only represent the broken post-colapse economy.
And that doesn't mean all mythic weapons are gone; that'a why those Christmas free DLCs R. Talsorian Games are so important. They didn't bring back Militech Crusher, Kendachi Dragon or Nomad Pneumatic Weapon just as Exotic weapons, those are relics from the past, and besides their own deal being "just" standart weapons with diffrent mechanics, it already tells us how the 2020s were the golden yeara for night city and gun manufacturing was pretty much diffrent than how the Neocorporations or Scavenger Techies. Speaking of which, this generalization of weapons was made specially so that they could insert a role ability able to not just fabricate itens into the game, but inventing brand new thing into the world. Still miss the suppressor though, sneaking like solid snake and gunning the boosters one by one, and I hope that 2023 Christmas DLC include crazy yet essencial gun mods, like they did with Gunmas and Cybermas (which, if you haven't read yet, hop on Talsorian's website right now and take a look, it is free and you can now pump out of your cyberarm a goddamn chainsaw)
Finally, a message for the Old Guard: I hope y'all don't get mad at some young TTRPG Player and also Know I appreciate your experiences with this beloved hobbie. I learned to love combat tactis and character optimization, the game aspecta of the roleplay without compromising the story, and your war game wisdom many times served as a lighthouse when trying new game systems or jusr bulding up my combos. This text isn't about generation confict, is just a generation gap; I don't think they are making many more TTRPG like before, but don't think is much of an issue, just different game proposals; some may sound coherent or nor, and some we may like or not.
There are things in RED's FNF that upset me, like making dual wielding useless. I can't chrome uo my both arms and go like wolverine into my enemies, and I would love to know your thoughts about homebrewing these gaps at the game. Talsorian itself encourages players to do it and let's get in mind that this edition is like 2 years old.
If you manege to read untill here, I hope you have a wonderful day, and remember to stay hydrated. Never fade away, choom!
I need to actually play Cyberpunk Red, I've owned it for nearly 2 years now and never did anything with it.
Seth how do you feel about the new Cyberpunk animated series on Netflix
Enjoyed it. I loved that it was ultimately a tragedy. Cyberpunk isn't a world of happy endings. I especially liked how they depicted the progression into cyberpsychosis, starting with shakes, and working up to full dissociation from reality. The way they set it up, so the audience and even other characters can clearly see it coming, but our hero, like an addict, is blind to the problems until it's too late. Cybertech (like Mythos Tomes in Call of Cthulhu) is a double-edged sword. It helps you survive in the short-term by giving you an edge. But in excess it ends up being the cause of your own fall.
Yeah, played _Cyberpunk RED_ during a live series and was continually confounded by some of the mechanics decisions, especially combat. Was literally shooting out from inside a heavily armored vehicle (through a narrow window). But, that wasn't considered *cover* according to the 'Golden Rule.' Or how our Solo tried to shoot an adversary with her assault rifle at close range... and had to back away from them to have a better chance at hitting.
Been playing _Cyberpunk_ since the original, so was kind of disappointed overall. Shame really.
This is the best RPG review I've ever read or watched. I was a huge Cyberpunk 2020 fan and Red has had me excited since it was announced. I am disappointed by it, though. I think it's got great potential but it needs a serious amount of work to become what it should. Thanks for the great, great content, Seth!
Also of note; if you own cyberpunk 2077, you already have this game. Check the game files
There is a single throwaway line somewhere in all the official material that mentions why suppressors are no longer used. Every single modern firearm is now integrally suppressed and caseless, no exceptions. I'm going to have to deep dive all the books and blog posts to figure out where that came from.
Found it! It's "From the Mayor's Desk 1.15.21"
Ironically, a recent expansion brought silencers back.
9:50 I agree with issuing IP to individual skills, cos it encourages players to try to use the skills they want to improve. They'll naturally get better at the things they already do frequently, but it rewards active attempts to get better in character. Also, if you go with the old 2020 idea of awarding some points even if they're not particularly being effective but they're still using the skill, it can take the edge off some bad rolls. Players like being rewarded for putting in effort.
On the subject of netrunning, I'm not a huge fan of the way they've done it in this edition, but it gave me the inspiration necessary to fix it in 2020. Firstly, I established that most major corporate data-fortresses are on separate local networks that can be cut off from the wider net the moment an intrusion is detected, so a runner has to be either *extremely* stealthy, or be physically present in the building in order to jack directly into the local net. Secondly, I make the data-fortress map directly to the physical environment of the real-world facility that houses it, so if for example a runner sees that the control program for an autoturret is on the other side of a partition but has no other protection they can be like "Get me through this wall and I can turn the turret off!" and suddenly you have interaction between the run in the meat world and the run in the data world, and at the end of the day the real problem was the extreme disconnect between those two things.
Bam. You just solve the net running problem right there. Without turning it into pokemon go. And yes the IP system for 2020 worked beautifully. One IP for using a skill whether it's successful or not it's fantastic because it means you learn something. I never understood level based games it made no sense to me that if character X levels up all his skills go up with him even if hes never used them.
@@phillee427 For the record I did keep the pokemon battle of throwing programs at each other because I find that uniquely fun and charming as far as cyberpunk games go, my goal was to make it more interactive with the other part of the game.
Seth I didn't realize you had joined the GCN! It was a pleasant surprise seeing you on the traveler game! Great review!
Would love to see him run Them through cyberpunk in stead.❤ also he should be hired as Consultant for the “hardcore” mode of cyberpunk.. were all the things he mentions here Can be added in if wanted. I Think that would be an awesome edition to the game
That feeling of reading the book and having your enthusiasm go down the drain is how I felt when I got my hands on V5 when it came out. Dropped the book halfway through when it got to the part where Vampires can't use the internet lmao.
As did I , but I dropped it even earlier, didnt even read about the non--internet part, is that true?! lol why?? what was the explanation behind that?
@@TheMerrox Only one clan cannot use gadgets or electronics and that is the Lasombra. The rest can just use the internet just fine, just dont show it to a conservative Prince or he'll take your head of, or talk about vampire stuff openly on the internet or the Second Inquisition or the Sheriff will take your head off.
In short, kindred can still use technology provided they dont go around breaking the Masquerade and attracting the SI's attention.
@@TheMerrox Kenneth Hite's Men In Black from his other game somehow showed up on Vampire calling themselves the Second Inquisition. Because somehow the !@!%$ing Catholic church which is headed by a very liberal pope, is now full-blown on the hunt for supernaturals, because Religious Fanaticism. Whole lore is a dumpster fire.
The valentines day "dlc" they added was pretty great. Feels more like a gig generator than speed dating which I'm totally ok with
I was thinking about getting my hands on the core book, because after watching Edgerunners I'm very curious about the setting and was willing to try it with its system, but after this review I think I'll stick to my trusted Savage Worlds and get the info about the setting (history, places, people, items) somewhere else, blending the two. No point for me in getting that system if there are some glaring errors like those you described speaking about combat. Seems like a missed opportunity to do something great.
They actually did explain the missing silencers; in Red firearms typically have integrated suppressors. Not movie silencers, but not gonna require hearing protection.
That reminds me how most firearms in 2020 were caseless.
This is actually reasonable, considering that’s something (minus the massive red tape) that would be happening today, considering it’s what muffler technology is for cars today.
@@alizard7617 that carried over to Red
In Red, many of the weapons and gear are pre-collapse relics. Are these integrated suppressors retrofitted somehow?
@@SSkorkowsky Possibly? This info doesn't come from the book itself. It's from "From The Mayor's Desk" on RTS's website.
Any rules for rocket tours to the moon? My girlfriend wants to go to the moon and I'm working with a big guy and his crew to save enough money to afford 2 tickets.
Make Them stow aways… no Way in hell in red runner are gonna get enough scratch to go to the Moon .
I want to run an adventure in this system since you made the video on the jumpstart guide, and we are getting closer to finish our long DnD campaign, so this is a great video to gather a great perspective, thank you for the insight and tips.
honestly, i'd love to see what changes you'd implement to tackle the issues you found with red. be very interested in taking those "fixes" and using them myself
the fix is to just play savage world's
@@DAEDRICDUKE1 but i like night city :(
@@am-180 I love Night City too, I just used Savage Worlds system instead of Red (that said I did throw out all Netrunning alternate reality stuff, but I never used any of that anyway even when running 2020)
@@DAEDRICDUKE1 oh yeah i could do that, thanks for the recommendation. id never heard of savage worlds but i'll look into it 👍👍
This is SO DAMN timely, I'm getting ready to play my first ever game of Cyberpunk tomorrow, I sent this to my DM to review. Thanks alot!
Same here man, what a coincidence huh?
Sounds like a decent enough system, but from the looks of it we're going to need to house rule the chrome out of this beast to get it from gonk to preem nova choombatta level
Even in this review, Seth's suggested house rules are all based on his personal preferences. He likes cover rules. He likes rolling with advantage. He's moving those things into a system which doesn't strictly have need for them but leans into his own favorite style of gameplay. You're not going to find a set house rules which improves everything for everyone like a good Minecraft mod might do.
There is the matter of the ranges for autofire that is straight up gonked. Yeah, that was bad. That's also something which was already amended in the errata document. Seth is clearly reading a first printing without the errata at hand.
To be fair Seth house ruled the crap out Cp 2020 to. So I mean it’s in his genes. And hacking games to fit your taste buds is fun🎉
One of the ways I've changed over the last several years is my approach to House Rules. Back in the 70s & 80s you had to house rule just about every game just to make it playable. It was the norm. Every table had their own rules differences because no one played RAW.
But as more and more new ideas entered the marketplace, so did the quality of game design and player expectations. The past 7 or so years, I haven't _needed_ to House Rule games. We have incorporated House Rules because we wanted to, making a good thing better or more along our tastes. That's very different. So finding a modern game where I feel I _have_ to House Rule it, I'm far less forgiving or inclined to expend the energy, because it's no longer something I simply accept as standard procedure.
One of the defenses I was told early on when I first read CP Red was, "They knew people were just going to Houserule it, anyway, so the design decisions to Combat took that in mind." I hope that was merely speculation, and not actual insight on that person's part, because while I once would have found comfort in the idea the designers planned for the detail-work to be covered by House Rules (I even would have said, "That was smart"), I feel the opposite now. Expecting players to fix your game means your game design stinks.
It's kind of funny where you landed. because the combat system was a huge sell for me. I hate getting lost in charts and trying to find what modifier is doing what and rolling for what body part and figuring out how much is exposed for cover and so on and so on. Combat just drags on and on. Nothing feels snappy. Shooting someone in the leg takes 10 minutes of calculation. As I've gotten older I just have less time, and I appreciate that the combat system is less complex. But, you can always overlay 2020s combat rules over Reds.
Coming from 2020, I was really suprised how much they pared everything down. That being said, I didn't really understand (or like) the new economy until I watched JonJon the wise interview James Hutt about how it is supposed to work. It is less important that something that a player pays 500eb for a 500eb item, and more important that a 500eb is very difficult to acquire for non-fixers. Everything is on the haggle system, so a 100eb item and can be traded for a 100eb item. Since bullets cost 1eb each, you can buy a 10eb item for ten basic bullets, or one AP bullet. I think one of the way the rules sort of fail 2020 players is not drilling into GM's heads how poor everyone is supposed to be. 2020 was a 80's/90's view of the cyberpunk, so money was cheap and edgerunners expressed themselves through their choice of brand. RED is a view of cyberpunk from our current day. RED punks don't have "jobs" like they did in CP2020. They have "hustles" which pay less (and sometimes nothing!). CP2020 punks had "brand loyalty" for weapon manufacturers, but in RED players get whatever weapon they pulled out of the box at the night market stall they found.
Which brings up a problem I have which Seth didn't really mention for whatever reason, whether the big changes to the setting that come with RED are ones anyone was really asking for.
Some things defo needed streamlining. But hiring a D&D guy to update the game was perhaps in hind sight not the best move. I know why they did it with the popularity of 5e, but still..
Was never a big fan of the Interlock d10 core mechanic, but 2020 made up for that in style and substance in the extra detail and the old cyberpunk attitude. After getting the new Red book, I felt like a lot of what made 2020 so great was drastically cut down or sterilized. Initial impressions didn't encourage me to delve much into Red. Doubtful I'll spend more for future accessories to expand Red into what I think the core book should've been. Thanks for the review as it confirmed, in practice, what I had taken away from a quick read.
Been looking forward to this review as I'm running my first session of the Jumpstart kit for Halloween this year. I ran a mini session 0/combat test the other day and my players (all DnD players except when I force a new system on them) ate it up, many of them are already talking about player concepts based more on skills than roles which I think is dope. I can see how older players used to the crunch of 2020 can be disappointed by the streamlined approach of Red but as a new group coming in for the first time I think it'll help for a time at least. Perhaps later when Black Chrome or other supplements come out we'll see an increase in item complexity which I agree could add a lot to the game.
2:56 Glad you didn't forget about the anime.
I agree on all of your criticisms, particularly of the lack of weapon tables. As someone who loves binging on long intricate item lists for RPGs and salivating over every little item, seeing it so stripped down was disheartening, although I get it was probably for ease of access to new players. I even wrote out a full set of tables converting every weapon in the video game into the Red rules just to satisfy my list obsession. That said, RTG's website has been releasing a lot of small free DLC for it, some of which introduces specific items and weapons. Hopefully we'll see more along those lines, especially with them announcing a couple new chromebooks (although how they're described they'll be more for lore and mechanics than for lists of items).
The game dev clarified that there are no silencers because every gun in the game is integrally suppressed. All of them.
I’m about halfway through the video. I like some of the changes Red made. Especially the stat changes. Removing appearance was a good call. Reducing the penalty for fumbles was also great. 1/10 chance of beefing it was always too harsh.
But I’m not really a fan of what they did with combat. It seems way too simple now. Part of what made 2020 so deadly was you could always take a stray shot to the noggin. But with a -8 called shot in the modern version, that isn’t possible anymore. I also think the removal of the stun check was a bad idea.
It seems a mash of the two systems is what I’d end up doing. Keep the new stats/basic mechanics but keep the combat from the old system.
While this system looks like fun it does feels like the developers wrote and laid out part of it, went and did something else, then came back to finish things up after mind of forgetting quite where they were in development. I'm still interested in giving it a try though.
~ Adam
Great review! I think you may have a first printing of the book and PDF, because the portion you show for "How You Get Your Stuff" on pp 117 for the first five characters are different in my copy (second print). The Rockerboy, Solo, Netrunner, Tech and Medtech have the same humanity loss, but the EMP subtraction for each are -1, -2, -2, -2, and -2 respectively. They do have an errata document on the website, but I hate referring to errata, so I was lucky I got a second printing since all the first printings were sold out.
Oh yeah, I could tell from Seth's description of autofire that he's reviewing a first printing. To be fair, he's reviewing the book he has, not the book he doesn't have.
Given I'm about to start up a 2020 game... needed this!
Watched through you reiterated all my issues with red. Glad I picked 2020.
CP2020 had its share of issues. Highly recommend the Interlock Unlimited hack to go along with it.
Surprised you didn't mention how cyberware is so much more punishing in Red. Cybereyes are a friggin staple in the genre, but getting two of them (plus a couple of the obligitory upgrade options) can push you above 20 HL, dropping Empathy by 3 points. Tack on a cyberarm, a neural processor, and a chip slot, and you need to pump EMP to 6+ to even play the character. And that's without even slotting any chips (which also cause HL) or getting that nova pop-up Minami 10.
Sure, you could go through Therapy to reduce your HL, but that just feels like an additional tax for getting chromed. If you have a Medtech in the party, she could do Therapy on you for free, but then she's spending her own Downtime on you instead out Hustling and MAKING money.
Charging HL for foundational cyberware (which usually carries no benefit of it's own) and ALSO the upgrade options just feels like double-dipping. Especially since option capacity is already very limited. CP:R is a game I want to like, but the more I play, the more I feel I need to houserule to enjoy it.
Hell yeah! Not just a review I've been looking forward to, but dropping right when I'm mainlining another playthrough of 2077 and my gaming group is chomping at the bit to give RED a try!
Any thoughts on doing quick reviews for the DLC and such? I'd love to see if Old Guns Never Die addresses some of your concerns.
Old Guns Never Die excited me at first. But ultimately, after seeing it in action, it feels like all the unique and cool weapons of the old edition have simply been transformed into generic weapons that might have some of their Modification Slots pre-filled, and are more like different names for the same generic weapon over and over. You ever have a brand of something you like get bought out by a competitor (a tool, clothing, food, whatever), and you go to pick up one of those things you really love, but find that it's now an impostor? It was like that. The formulaic nature of how Red set it up (3 Quality Tiers of X price, Template base with slots for these 3 options) doesn't give the full range of diversity. Also, don't get me started on a Medium Handgun only holding 12 rounds without losing concealability, Concealability being Yes/No versus tiered, or their insistent use of the word "clip".
@@SSkorkowsky Seems much like Shadowrun 6e and DnD5e they are trying to go into broad appeal and lose all that crunch but games need some crunch or they just feel empty to play.
I'll stick with SR5e and CP2020 I think because they might be full of crunch but at least the game doesn't feel empty and generic.
@@Big_Unit I heard people swear on 3e Shadowrun or even the first edition of it due to preferring the 2050s. Unless you are more familiar w/ 5e why not go for 3e and prior instead?
@@rpgchronicler - 3e Shadowrun is the standard in my mind. It's just a revised and somewhat expanded 2nd edition which was the one that hit it big back in the day. 5e tried to be a new 3e but just bloated it further without much extra benefit, and the organization of the books was a mess. 6e also looks to be a similar mess. The 6e mechanics changes are strange and, in an effort to simplify the system, it falls short in many ways (although I've not delved too deeply so that's just my initial impressions).
There's Shadowrun Anarchy for those who want a more narrative system. It loses a lot of granularity in doing so, however, as characters, equipment, etc start feeling too similar at that level. However, it's definitely less crunchy than the rest so it probably works for certain groups who like the setting but are allergic to crunch- for a short stretch. It's more narrative/discussion driven like PbtA and Fate, albeit with a little extra in cyberware, equipment, and such than those.
@@SSkorkowsky Oh damn, wasn't expecting an actual direct response!
Definitely know what you mean by the "it's officialy the same, but it's clearly not the same" vibe, run into that enough times in the day to day.
Thanks!
IIRC the starting empathy package was fixed in the newest editions of RED in print and digital formats. Errata was released to address it.
Outside of the lack of an Advantage/Disadvantage system (I hate this concept and hope if goes away, give me modifiers so I can fine tune things) I 100% agree with your assessment of Cyberpunk Red. A lot of 2020 flavor and what made it great was the world building and part of your character attitude was the gear they had. Dumbing that down, even more so then the combat, was the biggest issue I had. I can always house rule in cover and whatnot but it takes a lot more work add in that cool kit. This hit me hard too since 2020 was the first RPG that I played and was my first love till I found GURPS.
Brand Loyalty is what I feel is a core concept of the setting, so much so it inspired me to make rules for my GURPS blog that got so well revived that they are actually used by people who write for the system. A generic heavy pistol is boring. A Westmister Systems HCP-15 gives they player something to let their imagination run with, even better if you also can add a General Defensive Systems HighCap-Heavy that costs more but is less likely to jam. Then through in a Fácil Power Special for a cheap Saturday night special for that added chef's kiss.
But the book was still worth the pick up for me since I run Cyberpunk these days in GURPS since it does everything the original system did better to my gaming tastes but the world building and cybernetics ideas can easily be copied over. I'm hoping to run a campaign that combines the Apartment start scenario from the Jump Start Kit (which I love, such a great way to have an excuse for the characters to know each other give them something care about to fight for and a mission hub, all in one package!) with the Carnival scenario from the all time great 2020 fansite Data fortress 2020.
I'd like that you avoided the term streamlined and use the proper term dumbing down. I at the age of 18 in 1988 and learn how to run cyberpunk original. Then of course I went to 2020. So if I can learn it pre Internet new players that don't even have to know all the rules like the GM does should easily be able to get into 2020. Unless they are not giving new players enough credit.
@@phillee427 The way I look at it, making rules less clunky and easier to use with little to no lose in utility is streamlining. Taking away options that make the game funnier simply to make things simpler to use is dumbing down.
Though sadly kids these days are made of less stern stuff. Millennials (and I say this as someone who's in the age group that's in the murky area that makes me either the last of Gen X or the first of the millennials) and zoomers are largely lazy and entitled and think the world revolves around them. This is why you see D&D go down the route it's going where you're in no active danger at any time and most battle are just I win. They can't handle the thought of their totally original OC, do not steal, dying or having to suffer any consequences for playing a member of generally evil race (they're just understood do systems of oppression, racism and heterosexual norms don't you know; not that they murder villagers and sacrifice babies to dark gods). Now of course this in no describes all or hell, probably even a majority of them buuuut the ones that are throw such a huge fit all the time it the create the illusion they're the majority and a lot of games are catering to that mindset.
The DV system looks like it *_should_* be an improvement over the older versions but "Simple" is only 1 lower than "Easy" used to be and "Legendary is 1 lower than "Near Impossible" so the big difference is that there are *7* DVs spanning 20 points rather than *5* Difficulty Levels spanning 20 points... and the steps between them look janky: "Everyday" is 4 higher than "Simple", "Difficult" is 2 higher than "Everyday", "Professional" is 2 higher than "Difficult", "Heroic" is 4 higher than "Professional", "Incredible" is 3 higher than "Heroic" and "Legendary" is 5 higher than "Incredible" - did they *roll a D6* to get those steps?
At least the "Critical Failure" is merely "roll another D10 and subtract that from Stat+Skill+first roll (1) - much better than "now you've completely blown everything and the whole party's probably gonna die because of it" as in the earlier versions. IIRC, that's what some people were using as a house rule with CP 2020 to make it less like "you have a consistent 10% chance of completely screwing the pooch!" Totally agree that you should rule any resultant success as a "Yes, but..." - which is still an improvement over "you have shot yourself in the foot and are bleeding out and the bang has alerted Arasaka Security..."
I feel like to many games, not just table top rpgs go down this route of simplification to appeal to a broader mass. These games were and are loved because they allow complexity and getting into every detail of what model of gun you are using. Simplifying the game might seem good in theory but the result is not the same game anymore. The reason why everybody loves cyberpunk is lost. This trend is happening in nearly every rpg out there.
I started RPGs and wargaming (tabletop games such as 40K and others) in the 90s. It doesn´t matter what kind of company or group of writers publishes a new edition as the result is ALWAYS the following nowadays:
Dumbing down the game in the blind belief to chase a WIDER demographic and/or a MODERN audience. Good luck hunting for this kind of unicorn. It´s a mental disease nowadays! How about improving the game? Nah, just make it simpler. Meanwhile they lose their target customer group as these people can´t enjoy the game anymore for lack of details in the current game. A thing like brand loyalty exists but only to a certain degree. Better go back to a previous edition instead.
A few minutes ago I watched a review from two Germans about Shadowrun 6.0. Same problem as in the newest Cyberpunk game: Streamlining in the vain hope to gain access to a larger number of wallets.
Hey Seth, have you considered doing a video on learning to run a game in a setting you're not familiar with?
I've been interested in Cyberpunk for a while, but the biggest thing keeping me from trying it is the thought of running a game set in a universe I know nothing about. As a GM, it feels like that's something you can't just learn as you go.
Honestly, best practice is to learn a little about the setting. But, that being said, you don't have to know everything, just the broad strokes. After all, something different happens in quite literally every game out there, so what does it matter if something acts differently than it is supposed to in 'canon'? It's your game, and you're the gm. You are the god of that setting, with ultimate power. So you can decide that, say, arasaka owns that building when, instead, militech should, in the game,book, whatever.
Ryan's advice is solid. Learn the big broad strokes first. That's most of what you'll need to run the world. During adventures, you can focus in on the minutiae of some specific thing. Now both you and your players have some broad general strokes on the world and finer details on that specific thing. Later, in another adventure, find another specific thing you want to focus on. After a while you and your players have a really solid understanding of a lot. Something in the word doesn't fit your vision, that's cool. Follow your vision. It's your game and you should feel ownership. But what's far more important than knowing all the fine details about the larger world is that you can present a world to your players that _feels_ larger than they see. At the same time, it doesn't matter if you know every tiny piece of world lore if you aren't presenting it in a way that feels like a giant world.
I had Cyberpunk pre-ordered in Europe for damn near a year, it took about 9 months to get to me just so I could get the bits and mortar PDF (bits and mortar sucks in Europe, least for me in Ireland). I was excited as hell, wanted to love the system but... Yeah. The combat really missed for me, and while there were bits of it I loved, I went back to Cyberpunk 2020. Cyberpunk Red IS amazing, but it just falls apart in some areas. Right now, I integrated the rules I like from Red, and want to run the Red setting but using 2020 rules.
...Just need to get my players to start a cheeky little... Corporate war maybe...
Cyberpunk has always been one of those games I've wanted to try but my group had no interest until the anime I feel like this edition is going to be very popular with young people
Yep, the anime has already caused 3 separate groups of players to ask me to GM CPRed for them. They probably appreciate the streamlined approach but I miss those huge weapon tables from 2020.
I wanna play this but I need to find people
I definetely agree with the review. While Cyberpunk Red cut away a lot of the fat and crunch of 2020, it also feels like they put "muh balance" up on a pedestal, damn everything else. The way they nerfed the Lifepath and weapon variety hurt the most. Going year by year for a character and seeing what crazy stuff happened to them was always great. They took that out because "something bad or good happening each year is unbalanced"
Aside from all the gripes you had with combat I found it really weird how some weapons require insane BOD requirements that really shouldn't. Why does using a full auto shotgun require me to be borged up halfway to cyberpsychosis? (it's not even full auto, it can fire twice a turn. Again "muh balance"). You can find videos online of regular dudes dual wielding AA-12s
Overall, I still like Red, but I feel like they stripped a lot of the options and cooler parts of 2020 to make it more "balanced" and also, let's be real here, to appeal to the casuals. I know that's an eye-rolling statement, but it's pretty clear that's what happened. Following the hype of 2077, a lot of newcomers discovered the 2020 game and since most of them never even played a TTRPG before, found it too complex (which in some areas, it admittedly is). So they streamlined Red to a ridiculous extent
I hope future books give Red more options, but they wrote themselves into a corner with a lot of mechanics.
SCOTT BROWN 4 LIFE!! Well timed Review, synergising with those "I Really Want to Stay At Your House" vibes!
Lasers were in the novel Neuromancer and Count Zero, the sequal to Neuromancer; the bibles of the cyberpunk genre. Odd the rpg doesn't have them. Great review, by the way. I'll stick with cyberpunk 2020.
Been looking forward to this! Kind of stuck in a rut between wanting to start a game of RED, Call of Cthulhu, or D&D with my gaming group. I was reading through the RED core rulebook, and I was already planning on merging 2020 rules into RED to fill in the gaps they left out or simplified too much.
The economy they set up is made for bartering btw, at least from an article written by the designer of the economic system. It assumes that people aren't carrying eddies anymore, but are trading goods. So you trade an everyday item for an everyday item, and stuff like that. However, your idea of ranging prices is something I believe the designer said to go for in a Q&A, as while the prices are made for bartering, that doesn't mean fixers and vendors won't upcharge.
The weapon layout I 100% agree with. I think I'm going to overhaul the RED weapon descriptions and combine it with 2020 stuff (concealability, customizability, etc.). Players can keep track of that stuff when they write down what their weapons do. Same thing with the modifiers for running while shooting and stuff. I plan to make a cheat sheet adding those back in.
Thanks for some more ideas to include at my table based on the homebrew rules you guys are doing!
Funny story: I'm a cook at a table top gaming restaurant and we hired a dishwasher, he's from Africa, so after playing cp2077 I got the bright idea one day to say "sup choomba" he replied "I don't speak swahili"
I near died laughing 😃 😀 😄 😁 🤣 😂
Been waiting for this for a long time! Thank you Seth, for all you do! Keep up the fantastic work!
Great review - I'm a CP2020 vet as well. Looks like some major editing got skipped. The whole generic weapon name & cost thing makes no sense whatsoever. If they did the CP2020 thing of every gun is subtly different they could have put more detail & immersion in one table than they ended up scattering across three tables in various parts of the book. They wasted space and made it harder, and made it less fun/immersive. What was the purpose? Also, they've shot themselves in the foot - who's going to buy a CP-R weapons supplement when everything costs the same and behaves the same? They really should have come to a bunch of veterans and given them a pre-release PDF under an NDA and listened to the feedback and implemented it. Some parts seem much better while other parts look like a major step backwards. With a print run already out there, the flaws seem unredeemable and there really is no excuse for such sloppiness.
The most damning praise ever heard is “we loved the older edition so much that when we came to this game, the changes made just made us stop and hesitate on whether to play the new edition.”
People didn't understand why I was so stoked that Mike Pondsmith was writing Cyberpunk 2077.
Eventually, they found out.
I'm definitely coming at it with fresh eyes so overall the game seems pretty great to me. Probably some things here or there I'd tweak when actually running it (I like the idea of giving IP for fumbles). As for the brands and such for the weapons, I'm thankful that I'm a pretty decent graphic designer myself so making my own list using actual brand names, maybe adding an extra column for the quality and such shouldn't be hard to do.
You should share it with other fans when it's done - depending on how CDPR is about that sort of thing of course (please!). I'm reminded of the great resources I found just poking around Reddit for Call of Cthulhu when I first got into it(simple Google Drive file sharing stuff). It's such a gift when fans/GMs share the cool things they made with each other!
I do love Cyberpunk Red. I just wish not everything was so 'streamlined'. I remember the starter box rule set, was, in my opinion, a bit of a mess. They had these Burstfire rules that were absolutely deadly to use. Squeeze the trigger once, make one roll, and depending on the margin of success, so many bullets hit, roll damage for each singular one. On an assault rifle, a death sentence. They did improve that, but they turned it now to "Autofire", which has it's own skill (at double the cost) and feels like you are not getting a proper return of investment for spending 10 bullets from your clip, and rolling on a higher difficulty table. On an assault rifle, the damage difference feels minimal. Suppressing Fire feels like it could use a little improvement as well, because you are rolling against the enemy in order to force them into cover to suppress them. But what if they beat your roll? Well apparently that means they don't run for cover... but wouldn't they get hit then instead? Or maybe drop prone? I don't know, I just feel like those particular rules are not completely done baking in the oven yet. Any other opinions here? Am quite happy enough with the combat system as is, even if it can feel like playing XCom sometimes (Move on the grid, have a percentage chance to hit with a weapon, end turn).
Great review.
Cyberpunk and Shadowrun both have needlessly complicated and semi-unfinished rulebooks.
I'm not very knowledgeable on the way shadowrun does things however I am definitely curious to know how you feel the cyberpunk core book is unfinished?
Also, check out the Cyberpunk RED DLC, including the one Old Guns Never Die.
As a big fan of the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic in D&D5e, I love the idea of bringing it into RED to address some of the missing modifiers and issues with combat. Taking a turn to aim? Get Advantage. Partial cover? Disadvantage to the shooter. Dropping prone? Disadvantage to be hit at range, but advantage to be hit in close quarters. Running and gunning? Disadvantage to both shooters.
I also completely agree with the layout issues you bring up, especially repeated tables and the like. Trying to get a clear picture on some things is not made easy thanks to how they set up the book. At least they have fixed a few things (like autofire having different DVs, or the EMP loss for starting cyberware) in the errata and digital versions, but it's not as convenient for the dead-tree edition fans.
Pulp Cthulhu does every one of those with Bonus/Penalty Dice, while also offering a buffet of different weapon choices.
Agreed on your hack. Not hard to do.🙂
@@bananapants76 Not really my hack; just spitballing implementations of Seth's suggestion from the video.
Yeah man, the lack of brand names really hurt my immersion. I could forgive almost everything I found wrong with it, but man, Cyberpunk is supposed to be style above all else, how can you flaunt your piece if your piece is a generic Heavy Pistol (tm)?
Fantastic review, Seth! I absolutely love Cyberpunk Red and think you really brought it out.
Thanks, brother.
@@SSkorkowsky I wish you had done a bit more on the setting and the revised Post-Arasaka Bombing world. If you ever feel like doing a follow-up video, I think this would be a good idea. But I admit, lore is my jam.
The rules for weapons, economy, and to an extent combat, feels like its for the GM, not actual play.
These aren't things that ought be core rules. They're the type of thing you'd expect on one of those cardboard quick reference blockers. Simple rules for quick on the cuff creation, instead of the deep systems players get in to.
I deeply hope we get some good expansion, but i don't expect it.
Feels like they'd need a new edition entirely.