Except that he's wrong about the NBA. I still remember when the Houston Rockets posted official stats from a game that would have made Olajuwon have a quadruple double (more rare than a perfect game in MLB). League office took a harder look and took away an assist, leaving him with 9. No quadruple double. A few weeks later, Olajuwon got a legit quadruple double. But, at the time, nobody knew he'd do it again (no person ever has), so it was a big deal when the league office got involved.
Being an Angels fan is rough enough without the extra gut punches like that. Credit to Nolan though, he handled it like a pro and isn't dwelling on it. He says he's focused on bigger things.
Nolan is such a good kid. It's amazing how someone so young can have such a better attitude then Old Man Rendon. Rooting for Nolan to get another hitting streak going!
@@garbagedidudirty lol do what ya gotta do. All the sports teams I like always seem to be bad, so I'm used to it. 😂 As long as you're not switching to be a Dodgers fan.
@@itsvs286 I had to hop off the angels when they lost the best baseball player in the world to the dodgers. I would never be a dodger fan lol, I literally have the angels A tattooed on my body.
@@garbagedidudirty I don't blame you at all, Carlos. I'm still pissed off and heartbroken about Shohei. Imagine if Moreno sold the team like he said he would, and we had competent ownership, what could've been... I can't buy tickets or spend money on the Angels until he leaves - which I HOPE is soon.
I really like the formats of these. I trust Jimmy to find the most interesting topics from the previous weeks, and he has just been delivering with these. I also really like how he has gone a little deeper in these videos than they do in a normal talking baseball video because it gives you a little separation between the two if you want something that goes a little deeper into baseball.
Finally getting to sit down and watch this and comment along. Apologies for what will be a long post as there is a lot to unpack. (Ironically, I was scoring a game while watching this the first time around and didn't have time to really go through it.) • As others in the comments have already noted, yes, there CAN be a hit and an error on a play if the OS rules that 1) the batter first reached on a hit, then 2) either he or a preceding runner advanced another base on an error. Probably the most common example is a batter beating the throw on a ground ball, but then that throw eludes the first baseman, allowing the batter-runner to proceed to second. That example gets scored as a hit for reaching first, plus an error for letting him go another 90 feet. In the case of March 30, the play initially went in as a hit for Schanuel, then an error for allowing Drury to get to third. I think it should have stayed that way, but I'll break my reasoning down below. • At 7:48 When MLB or Elias alerting the OS: this is not for a judgment call, but rather a decision that violated the rules. So e.g. suppose a player was thrown out trying to advance on a wild pitch, and the OS scores the out as a caught stealing. MLB or Elias (or both) would see that as an incorrect application of 9.07(h) and have the decision corrected. It's kind of akin to the manager protesting a game. • At 9:29 Agree 100% that there should be an infielder on that panel for all of the reasons Jimmy states. There are far more errors and far more tough decisions regarding ordinary effort in the infield. (Coincidentally, I've been the OS for games with Otero and Blanco. Kinda makes me want to go through my records to see if I ever screwed over one of those guys on a call 😂.) Also: Blanco, Otero and Davis?? That's a lot of Bay Area representation. Those guys just couldn't wait to hose an LA player amirite? Shenanigans, I tell ya. • The first baseman (Mountcastle) making a diving stop was beyond ordinary effort. No thinking human will question that part. Thus, the side-by-wide analysis of the various ground balls at 13:50, while impressive, is irrelevant to the OS decision in the March 30 Angels-O's game. The decision to charge or not charge an error comes later in the play. • At 12:13, LeMahieu did not get charged with an error, and rightfully not (DET @ NYY, Sept. 7, 2023, top 4th). Perhaps it was initially scored as an E3 but yeeesh... that would be BRUTAL. LeMahieu is throwing from his knees, which is awkward enough, plus he's throwing to a pitcher (Rodon) who was a little late covering. Fortunately, that one is now in the books as a hit for Carpenter. • The 12:28 clip (KC @ CLE, Apr. 6, 2018) is tough but I think an E3 is correct. Cuthbert makes a nice stop to glove the ball. But once he does, he has plenty of time to throw, especially with how much time he has. Yonder is not even halfway to first at the time Cuthbert sets his feet. Thus, making a good throw is well within ordinary effort, and failing to do so is where Cuthbert gets dinged with the error. There's an argument for charging Duffy for the error under 9.12(a)(3), but the OS apparently figured the preceding throw superseded it. IMHO: I can absolutely see the argument for an E1 A3 on the Shanuel grounder, but I agree with the MLB Scoring Changes account operator in that I would have left it as a hit for Schanuel, with an E3T to account for Drury's advance. Here's why: 1. Mountcastle's stop of the grounder is way beyond ordinary effort, so no error there (obviously). Again, no one doubts this part. 2. Mountcastle had to throw off his knees, starting almost parallel to the ground with his back turned away from the bag. Thus, throwing Schanuel out is beyond ordinary effort, which means no E3 when it comes to the batter-runner being safe 3. Once Mountcastle decides to throw, Baumann is forced to catch an ankle-biter toward his left shin while he's running to his right. I'd say this is also beyond ordinary effort, but I'll admit I've only seen the high home angle. Maybe the Davis/Blanco/Otero panel had other camera angles that made Baumann's play more clear. Still, it strikes me as a tough error to charge, and the benefit of the doubt goes to the batter, per 9.05(a).
Started watching Jomboy about 4-5 years ago, hadn't been big on baseball before that. Now I've got a job helping a AAA clubhouse. Always love the videos👍
'He's better off letting the ball go by, since making the stop can hurt you by giving you an error instead of a single' is basically the thesis statement for how Jeter is a 4-time GG winner.
Exactly. Quite often, better fielders get charged for errors simply because they are skilled enough to get to balls that lesser players never come close to.
If they get to a ball that most cant get to normally realistically 9 out of 10 times u won’t even have a chance to make the play. I guarantee you that most of the errors that he made were legit errors. For you to basically say that this was the only reason they were able to get jeter for errors is absolutely ridiculous
@@DoritosClipz Good thing that's not what I said, then. In fact I said the literal exact opposite, that judging by Errors makes Jeter look *much* better than he is, which is why a historically bad defender has 4 Gold Gloves.
@@Math.Bandit I was replying to this other guy that commented under you. But I don’t understand what you mean by how jeter looks much better then he is for making errors. What do you mean by that?
This is quickly becoming my new favorite baseball series on this channel. Great job. It embraces and brings back the early days of Talkin baseball where you all were just dive in on some random stuff.
The Scoring Changes Twitter account made an error. Alvin Dark played from 1946-1960, and the record holder at 47 straight to start a career is from Alvin Davis.
The error was initially given because Drury advanced to third. He took an extra base due to the misplay. Someone has to take an error regardless of whether or not Schanuel gets a hit.
@@ru40342 yes, but this comment is critical to explain why a single AND error are both possible on the same play. If nobody advanced further it either has to be a straight hit or a straight error, not combination.
@@GymAndSun Interestingly if there hadn't been a baserunner to get an extra base and require an error, this is probably scored a hit and nobody changes or appeals the scoring.
Luckily for the Mariners France is an everyday player. He missed a series on paternity leave and the rest of the team can’t hit so he isn’t getting many ABs.. Big fan of this segment!
It's rough being a Mariners fan rn. It's not like it's chaotic baseball yet. They just suck. They struggled in the first two series because they were breaking ball Pitchers, but then they got to play Brewers and now are against Toronto, where they noticed that THEY CAN'T HIT BREAKING BALLS. Been the issue for 4 years. Mariners just swing at every box below the zone.
@@medarby3066 Agree that it’s too early to give up on the season (Julio showed how to turn it around last year) but that doesn’t change the reality of their collective ABs 12 games in.
Haven't watched Jomboy in a long time, and I don't know if this is kind of a new type of video he's doing but I hope it continues. I really enjoyed this video and would like to see more like it throughout the season
Really interesting to see five Angels on the PPA list. You'd expect that to translate with team statistics, right? They're sitting 12th in BB% (9.8%), 10th in K% (23.9%), and sit roughly league average in many other general hitting statistics. Yet, they're 2nd in team PPA (4.13), sitting behind your Yankees (4.14). These deep dives are a lot of fun
The Cardinals had a shortstop for 4-5 years in the late 00s named Brendan Ryan (who I think made a pit stop at the Yankees for a few years later in his career!) who was a fantastic defender with great range. He had a few seasons > 3 defensive war, which of course you love to see from your SS. I remember this happening with him a lot, where he would sometimes get dinged with an error on a ball that maxed his range and the best he could do is knock it down or not make the throw. But 90% of short stops wouldn't have even gotten to the ball and it would have gone to the left center gap for a potential double, so essentially he was getting punished despite the fact that he was making an extra-effort play that prevented an extra base.
100% agree with your deep dive on the Shanuel non-hit play. 2 things I’ll add though… Once Mounty makes the stop, the appeal committee might be saying that if he makes the throw and Baumann makes the catch, Shanuel would have been out by a half a stride. It took a great effort to just get to that ball which should make it a base hit, but just offering up another reason why they might have changed the ruling. TV broadcast have different delays between the CF camera and the other cameras. So I think the way you have the markers for bat contact and glove contact make a ton of sense and it gets the point across, however the camera delay between broadcast could be different. I think they should’ve just gone with the original ruling, it’s like everyone was trying to overthink an obvious base hit. Btw I love this series! Keep doing them Jimmy!
"It took a great effort to just get to that ball which should make it a base hit..." Problem is, that's only the first element of the overall play. The throw is the second element, and the player catching the throw is a third. If the players panel determines the second or third part of the play did not go beyond ordinary effort, then the error gets ruled on one of those parts. Obviously, this sucks for the fielder, who made a great play in the first place. And as Jimmy noted, it's why the error stat is so misleading for determining how good a defensive player is. A player who makes a diving stop but then flubs an easy throw will get charged an error. Meanwhile, a player who isn't good enough to get to the batted ball in the first place will not show up in the fielding stats at all.
Awesome breakdown and analysis! On the replays (of the similar plays).....there is no chance DJ LeMahieu of Yankees got an error on that play since the pitcher was late covering the bag. That has to be a hit.
For the highest and lowest pitches I think you want to change the "group by" setting in the search. Otherwise the "plate Z" value that's displayed in the table (the value you're using to sort the list) might be the average of all pitches they hit, not the highest or lowest individual pitch. It turns out that Vazquez hit is only the 28th lowest so far this year.
I always love when you do pitch accuracy comparisons over on JM...overlays of pitch placement. Might be fun to see how accurate a pitcher when compared to the catcher's call.
My coach Al always said, if that ball hits your glove and its dropped. You better pray it has a hole in it already because he about to make one and get you a new one.
To counter, if that's a hit than isn't every extraordinary catch a hit? Or at least count towards on base. What if they make make the throw? The only reason he reached base is an error. If somebody robs a home run you don't count it on the stats as a home run just because it required extraordinary effort. That should only matter to make hard plays not an error for the fielder
After taking your lowest pitch hit query and expanding the years to all available, looks like the lowest ball hit is actually Padres pitcher Daniel Camarena hitting a grand slam off Scherzer back in 2021. Pretty cool
Jimmy is always in his element with his 3 things. So much better to see him be happy about talkin ball and nerding out for us compared to when he was doing talking baseball 3 times a week
Jimmy, I have an idea for a video. Watching Vogelbach getting a double made me wonder if a player like Vogelbach has ever had a triple before. Doing a video on batters who end up with specific results that are like 1% chance, would be cool to see a breakdown. Don't know if it's possible, just throwing the idea out there
They're different parts of the same play. A batter can reach on a hit, but then he or another runner could also advance farther due to an error. Example #1: batter hits a line drive to center field. Center fielder plays it on a couple of bounces, but bobbles it. The batter sees the bobble, and goes to second. The OS would rule that the batter reached first on a single, then advanced to second on an E8. Example #2: batter hits a slow ground ball to third. He beats out the throw, which sails over the head of the first basean. The batter then scrambles to second before the defense can retrieve the ball. The OS would rule a single allowing the batter to reach, then a throwing error allowing him to go to second.
Mountcastle is a monster and he is having an amazing year so far. Clearly he should be rewarded for keeping this ball in the infield and not given an error.
Jimmy really love these videos man. The time and effort you put into these with everything else going on with the company is awesome. I look forward to this every week!
It should be a single regardless of whether the first baseman caught it or not. It was a tough catch by the first baseman and a rocket shot to the gap.
The tough catch at first is only the first part of the overall play. Scorers don't rule based on the totality of the play, we have to consider each element separately. It's all enumerated in the MLB Case Book.
Hey Jimmy, I absolutely love these. Idea for a deep dive - after watching Moncada go down. Why, over the last couple of years do all of the White Sox players seem to go down with leg injuries running, mostly to first base? There has to be some thing going on here. I’ve never seen players consistently get injured just running year after year the way this team does.
That Angels announcer was airing all of MLB's dirty laundry and sounded fed up already even though the season basically just started. This is going to be an interesting year for MLB.
Id be down with that, but he first needs to read Rule 9 then the entirety of the MLB case books. His whole run on why there was a hit and an error called on the same play tells me he has never actually scored a game.
Not usually a commenter but wanted to share some insight as a someone who has taken a training session from an MLB official scorer and has been an official scorer at the college level. 1. Scorers are told that there is a separation between the field and the throw. Once the 1B makes a clean stop on the dive, the throw is evaluated separately so if the throw, which can be deemed fairly routine, is bad or if an on-target throw is clearly dropped, it can be an E3 on the throw or an E1 on the catch to allow the runner to reach 1st. 2. Full timing of the play would show that if the pitcher catches the ball, he beats the runner to 1st and the runner would be out so not completing the play created the runner to be safe. If they deemed the play beyond the diving stop to be routine, there’s merit for an error ruling. Very difficult to determine in full speed but slowing it down can help those determinations so if MLB is going to use slow mo replay to determine safe/out on the field, it has to be used to make the most accurate ruling on hit/error. Can absolutely see both sides, just wanted to add additional insight from someone who’s been trained.
Oh nice, a fellow OS! In your opinion was Mountcastle's throw and/or Baumann's catch beyond ordinary effort? I think they were but Baumann's catch is the toughest determination. My guess (or hope) is that players' panel had other angles that showed how catchable the ball was for Baumann. The high home angle looks like he was having to reach back and down toward his shin/ankle to catch it, all while running to his right. If the throw was higher than it appeared to us, or more centered, then I could see how they settle on an E1 A3.
I was really surprised by the change personally as I thought it was not an ordinary effort play for Mountcastle to throw from his knees to a 6-5 moving target…I think it’s a single and a throwing error on Mountcastle and thought the first change by the scorer was correct. Additionally, I’m a scorer in NCAA and MiLB as well. Ironically after I took the test in 2022, I was asked if I had gotten the answers before hand. When I said no and asked why, they told me while once in a while they get a perfect score, no one had ever gotten one as fast as mine (I didn’t even pay attention that it was timed). So I have that going for me.
@@MLBScoringChangesdo you think it wasn’t a missed catch by the pitcher? I saw it as a great play and a good enough throw and the pitcher just missed it but I’m not as qualified as you.
The juxtaposition of jimmy’s 3 things vs the “regular” talkin baseball episodes has been great. It’s really nice to get this mid week deep dive into the topics that might just be mentioned and glossed over in the other talkin baseball eps.
Awesome research on the error change, really sucks that happened and the worst way to have his streak end. No way that DJ play is an error dude never had a chance of being out
Maybe statistically the first two error calls fault the defense twice: the pitcher gets charged a hit and the first baseman is charged. It might be something super technical like not being able to "double-up/down" on stats.
“Take the streak into account” not as in “give him a W he doesn’t deserve for the sake of a streak” but as in “put an infielder on your committee to make sure you don’t mess this up.”
Thank you... Schanuel was screwed but not by who we thought. And BO NAYLOR...thank you also for that recognition as a Cleveland fan who thinks Bo is incredibly underrated in his approach. I love Josh, but that's hilarious he's the other end.
Make sure you are using values in the spreadsheet and not a formula in that cell. If you want to see if it works quickly just copy and then right click "paste values". Then try to sort the table.
I was at that Orioles/Angels game! Live, I felt it should have been a throwing error from the beginning. I am a HUGE Angels fan and Schanuel wasn’t cheated. The other examples aren’t comparable, even the Yankees’ play. The Oriole 1st baseman was CLOSER TO FIRST BASE because he was holding the runner from taking second base. The Yankee player was nearly twice as far from first base when he was in a position to throw the batter/runner out. FYI…You can have multiple scores on a play, especially with runners on base. That said, you cannot score a single base advancement with multiple scores. The original scored hit/error was a hit for the batter and error given that advanced another runner.
That's a hit. Mountcastle made a great play to dive and get the ball, but then he has to throw it from his knees. It's either an error on him or Baumann, but honestly I don't think it should be an error on anyone. I think it should just be a hit. Look at the Hiura play. He goes for it but it bounces off of his leg; not an error because it wasn't a routine play. Mountcastle can't get an error because it's not a routine play. Baumann can't get an error because the throw is low and he's trying to get to the bag. In other words, it's just a Schanuel hit.
Whose ever idea it was to put a little sepia tint over the documents is a genius. Love these videos but I felt like I just got done staring at an eclipse when they were over lol
I think the rule should be, if you make an extraordinary effort to knock down a ball, you are free rolling to try to get the batter out. No errors possible unless the batter takes an extra base.
Does it count if you come up and Angel Hernandez calls the first two pitches strikes, even though they were a combined 3 feet outside and you're forced into a weak swing at a carpy slider?
The error may not have been on the play at first. There were runners at 1st and 3rd. The official scorer has to account for every base that is advanced by every runner. If the runner at 1st took third because of the throw on catch, an error would be assessed to account for the base. The fact that the first baseman made a great stop on the ball is immaterial if there was time to make the play at 1st. It all boils down to whether there was time to make the out at first with ordinary effort AFTER the 1st baseman's initial dive. As a former HS coach, I can tell you that the pitcher covering 1st base is practiced often. They are not just pulling it out of their butt. It is drilled into them, especially in spring training. The 1st basemen on the team are also involved in the drill and they know how to lead the pitcher. This play is not a one off, let's improvise kind of play. It is DRILLED into every pitcher and 1st baseman. Simply put, all that matters is what happens AFTER the stop by the 1st baseman
They originally called it a single with an error because the runner at second went to third after the ball got away. You cannot score a hit AND an error for Schanuel on the same play. The error is in play for the just the base runner.
That clip of the Angels announcer is so savage and brutal. I love it
This one is the best I’ve heard in awhile. Absolutely scorched
S/O to Wayne Randazzo who just graduated the Mets' Gary Cohen/Howie Rose.learning tree to become a badass for the Angels.
Wayne Randazzo the 🐐
Except that he's wrong about the NBA. I still remember when the Houston Rockets posted official stats from a game that would have made Olajuwon have a quadruple double (more rare than a perfect game in MLB). League office took a harder look and took away an assist, leaving him with 9. No quadruple double. A few weeks later, Olajuwon got a legit quadruple double. But, at the time, nobody knew he'd do it again (no person ever has), so it was a big deal when the league office got involved.
Quality breakdown on the Shanuel play. I guess I am a nerd. Shout-out to Mounty who has become an excellent defensive first baseman.
Being an Angels fan is rough enough without the extra gut punches like that.
Credit to Nolan though, he handled it like a pro and isn't dwelling on it. He says he's focused on bigger things.
Nolan is such a good kid. It's amazing how someone so young can have such a better attitude then Old Man Rendon. Rooting for Nolan to get another hitting streak going!
Is it ok as an angels fan for 20 years and from Anaheim that I’m switching to the giants now ?
@@garbagedidudirty lol do what ya gotta do. All the sports teams I like always seem to be bad, so I'm used to it. 😂 As long as you're not switching to be a Dodgers fan.
@@itsvs286 I had to hop off the angels when they lost the best baseball player in the world to the dodgers. I would never be a dodger fan lol, I literally have the angels A tattooed on my body.
@@garbagedidudirty I don't blame you at all, Carlos. I'm still pissed off and heartbroken about Shohei. Imagine if Moreno sold the team like he said he would, and we had competent ownership, what could've been... I can't buy tickets or spend money on the Angels until he leaves - which I HOPE is soon.
I really like the formats of these. I trust Jimmy to find the most interesting topics from the previous weeks, and he has just been delivering with these. I also really like how he has gone a little deeper in these videos than they do in a normal talking baseball video because it gives you a little separation between the two if you want something that goes a little deeper into baseball.
Finally getting to sit down and watch this and comment along. Apologies for what will be a long post as there is a lot to unpack. (Ironically, I was scoring a game while watching this the first time around and didn't have time to really go through it.)
• As others in the comments have already noted, yes, there CAN be a hit and an error on a play if the OS rules that 1) the batter first reached on a hit, then 2) either he or a preceding runner advanced another base on an error. Probably the most common example is a batter beating the throw on a ground ball, but then that throw eludes the first baseman, allowing the batter-runner to proceed to second. That example gets scored as a hit for reaching first, plus an error for letting him go another 90 feet.
In the case of March 30, the play initially went in as a hit for Schanuel, then an error for allowing Drury to get to third. I think it should have stayed that way, but I'll break my reasoning down below.
• At 7:48 When MLB or Elias alerting the OS: this is not for a judgment call, but rather a decision that violated the rules. So e.g. suppose a player was thrown out trying to advance on a wild pitch, and the OS scores the out as a caught stealing. MLB or Elias (or both) would see that as an incorrect application of 9.07(h) and have the decision corrected. It's kind of akin to the manager protesting a game.
• At 9:29 Agree 100% that there should be an infielder on that panel for all of the reasons Jimmy states. There are far more errors and far more tough decisions regarding ordinary effort in the infield. (Coincidentally, I've been the OS for games with Otero and Blanco. Kinda makes me want to go through my records to see if I ever screwed over one of those guys on a call 😂.)
Also: Blanco, Otero and Davis?? That's a lot of Bay Area representation. Those guys just couldn't wait to hose an LA player amirite? Shenanigans, I tell ya.
• The first baseman (Mountcastle) making a diving stop was beyond ordinary effort. No thinking human will question that part. Thus, the side-by-wide analysis of the various ground balls at 13:50, while impressive, is irrelevant to the OS decision in the March 30 Angels-O's game. The decision to charge or not charge an error comes later in the play.
• At 12:13, LeMahieu did not get charged with an error, and rightfully not (DET @ NYY, Sept. 7, 2023, top 4th). Perhaps it was initially scored as an E3 but yeeesh... that would be BRUTAL. LeMahieu is throwing from his knees, which is awkward enough, plus he's throwing to a pitcher (Rodon) who was a little late covering. Fortunately, that one is now in the books as a hit for Carpenter.
• The 12:28 clip (KC @ CLE, Apr. 6, 2018) is tough but I think an E3 is correct. Cuthbert makes a nice stop to glove the ball. But once he does, he has plenty of time to throw, especially with how much time he has. Yonder is not even halfway to first at the time Cuthbert sets his feet. Thus, making a good throw is well within ordinary effort, and failing to do so is where Cuthbert gets dinged with the error. There's an argument for charging Duffy for the error under 9.12(a)(3), but the OS apparently figured the preceding throw superseded it.
IMHO: I can absolutely see the argument for an E1 A3 on the Shanuel grounder, but I agree with the MLB Scoring Changes account operator in that I would have left it as a hit for Schanuel, with an E3T to account for Drury's advance. Here's why:
1. Mountcastle's stop of the grounder is way beyond ordinary effort, so no error there (obviously). Again, no one doubts this part.
2. Mountcastle had to throw off his knees, starting almost parallel to the ground with his back turned away from the bag. Thus, throwing Schanuel out is beyond ordinary effort, which means no E3 when it comes to the batter-runner being safe
3. Once Mountcastle decides to throw, Baumann is forced to catch an ankle-biter toward his left shin while he's running to his right. I'd say this is also beyond ordinary effort, but I'll admit I've only seen the high home angle. Maybe the Davis/Blanco/Otero panel had other camera angles that made Baumann's play more clear. Still, it strikes me as a tough error to charge, and the benefit of the doubt goes to the batter, per 9.05(a).
Started watching Jomboy about 4-5 years ago, hadn't been big on baseball before that. Now I've got a job helping a AAA clubhouse. Always love the videos👍
Congrats on the new gig!
'He's better off letting the ball go by, since making the stop can hurt you by giving you an error instead of a single' is basically the thesis statement for how Jeter is a 4-time GG winner.
Exactly. Quite often, better fielders get charged for errors simply because they are skilled enough to get to balls that lesser players never come close to.
@@6thwilbury2331well if you’re able to get to it you should be able to make the play
If they get to a ball that most cant get to normally realistically 9 out of 10 times u won’t even have a chance to make the play. I guarantee you that most of the errors that he made were legit errors. For you to basically say that this was the only reason they were able to get jeter for errors is absolutely ridiculous
@@DoritosClipz Good thing that's not what I said, then. In fact I said the literal exact opposite, that judging by Errors makes Jeter look *much* better than he is, which is why a historically bad defender has 4 Gold Gloves.
@@Math.Bandit I was replying to this other guy that commented under you. But I don’t understand what you mean by how jeter looks much better then he is for making errors. What do you mean by that?
Highest and lowest pitches hit is fantastic Jimmy. Keep them coming. Stuff like that is fun
This is quickly becoming my new favorite baseball series on this channel. Great job. It embraces and brings back the early days of Talkin baseball where you all were just dive in on some random stuff.
This is amazing analysis. Well done. There's no one better in breaking down plays and explaining. Well done.
The Scoring Changes Twitter account made an error. Alvin Dark played from 1946-1960, and the record holder at 47 straight to start a career is from Alvin Davis.
Yes, Seattle first baseman.
This is the deep dive/nerdy stuff about baseball that I love, keep it going!
The error was initially given because Drury advanced to third. He took an extra base due to the misplay. Someone has to take an error regardless of whether or not Schanuel gets a hit.
The question is about whether Schanuel gets a hit. That's the main point.
@@ru40342 yes, but this comment is critical to explain why a single AND error are both possible on the same play. If nobody advanced further it either has to be a straight hit or a straight error, not combination.
That’s why it was a hit and error. Never needed to be changed from that
@@GymAndSun Interestingly if there hadn't been a baserunner to get an extra base and require an error, this is probably scored a hit and nobody changes or appeals the scoring.
I'll be honest I don't see that as a hit. It was a nice diving stop but it was a ground ball that many if not most times becomes an out.
This is a FANTASTIC series that you're doing with these
Please keep up the three things! It’s so fun!
5:30 the error is for letting other runners move up on the drop, single for him getting to first base
I really like this concept. Brings the Chanel back to its roots but with a format. Really cool. Good work.
MORE OF THIS PLEASE I LOVED THIS BUT I ALSO PUT MY HAND UP WHEN YOU DID NERS ROLL CALL
Love these Jimmy. Do miss you on Talkin’ Baseball though.
Luckily for the Mariners France is an everyday player. He missed a series on paternity leave and the rest of the team can’t hit so he isn’t getting many ABs..
Big fan of this segment!
It's rough being a Mariners fan rn. It's not like it's chaotic baseball yet. They just suck.
They struggled in the first two series because they were breaking ball Pitchers, but then they got to play Brewers and now are against Toronto, where they noticed that THEY CAN'T HIT BREAKING BALLS.
Been the issue for 4 years. Mariners just swing at every box below the zone.
Always gets on Base.
Or
"AGOB"
What me and my buddy nicknamed him last season.
@ShawnnyPerkins as a Nats fan who is freinds with a Mariners fan, i just wanna say: everyone Calm down. Its April 10th. 😆 😂 😅😅
@@medarby3066 Agree that it’s too early to give up on the season (Julio showed how to turn it around last year) but that doesn’t change the reality of their collective ABs 12 games in.
It would really cool to see that quality at bats list at the end of the season! Great video, loving these deeper breakdowns for real.
Haven't watched Jomboy in a long time, and I don't know if this is kind of a new type of video he's doing but I hope it continues. I really enjoyed this video and would like to see more like it throughout the season
these behind the scenes are amazing jimmy, good insight
Really interesting to see five Angels on the PPA list. You'd expect that to translate with team statistics, right? They're sitting 12th in BB% (9.8%), 10th in K% (23.9%), and sit roughly league average in many other general hitting statistics. Yet, they're 2nd in team PPA (4.13), sitting behind your Yankees (4.14). These deep dives are a lot of fun
wow I am loving these deep dives, first the investigation into the Mets double plays and now this. good stuff
The Cardinals had a shortstop for 4-5 years in the late 00s named Brendan Ryan (who I think made a pit stop at the Yankees for a few years later in his career!) who was a fantastic defender with great range. He had a few seasons > 3 defensive war, which of course you love to see from your SS. I remember this happening with him a lot, where he would sometimes get dinged with an error on a ball that maxed his range and the best he could do is knock it down or not make the throw. But 90% of short stops wouldn't have even gotten to the ball and it would have gone to the left center gap for a potential double, so essentially he was getting punished despite the fact that he was making an extra-effort play that prevented an extra base.
brendan ryan, what a name-- loved that guy, he had some hustle too, i remember him blooping out a few infield hits in key spots-- go cards!
Mariners legend Brendan Ryan!
Andrelton Simmons would probably agree with you too. 😄
i love all 3 of jimmy's 3 things today
100% agree with your deep dive on the Shanuel non-hit play. 2 things I’ll add though…
Once Mounty makes the stop, the appeal committee might be saying that if he makes the throw and Baumann makes the catch, Shanuel would have been out by a half a stride. It took a great effort to just get to that ball which should make it a base hit, but just offering up another reason why they might have changed the ruling.
TV broadcast have different delays between the CF camera and the other cameras. So I think the way you have the markers for bat contact and glove contact make a ton of sense and it gets the point across, however the camera delay between broadcast could be different.
I think they should’ve just gone with the original ruling, it’s like everyone was trying to overthink an obvious base hit.
Btw I love this series! Keep doing them Jimmy!
"It took a great effort to just get to that ball which should make it a base hit..." Problem is, that's only the first element of the overall play. The throw is the second element, and the player catching the throw is a third. If the players panel determines the second or third part of the play did not go beyond ordinary effort, then the error gets ruled on one of those parts.
Obviously, this sucks for the fielder, who made a great play in the first place. And as Jimmy noted, it's why the error stat is so misleading for determining how good a defensive player is. A player who makes a diving stop but then flubs an easy throw will get charged an error. Meanwhile, a player who isn't good enough to get to the batted ball in the first place will not show up in the fielding stats at all.
Awesome breakdown and analysis! On the replays (of the similar plays).....there is no chance DJ LeMahieu of Yankees got an error on that play since the pitcher was late covering the bag. That has to be a hit.
Great job Jimmy! You could take this a dive deeper by talking to the hitting coaches of the teams that appear to be getting better. Angels!
Pretty impressive for Schanuel to be chasing down that on base streak while simultaneously hitting 50% of the Mendoza line. 3:11
For the highest and lowest pitches I think you want to change the "group by" setting in the search. Otherwise the "plate Z" value that's displayed in the table (the value you're using to sort the list) might be the average of all pitches they hit, not the highest or lowest individual pitch. It turns out that Vazquez hit is only the 28th lowest so far this year.
Interestingly, the lowest pitch put into play was -0.26ft (hit into a groundout off the bounce) :D
Knew something was wrong because Albies hit one way lower than that last night.
I LOVE this longer form content 👏🏼
Can we petition for Jomboy to be the appeal committee? I feel like he put more work into this than the real committee did. 😆
Love these videos Jimmy, nerd out Brother
This is incredible analysis thank you Jimmy
I love these detailed deep dive comparisons. ❤
Doing great journalism Jimmy!
Love this!! Please keep doing these deep dives!
What software do you use to edit and make your breakdowns? Love the content and knowledge!
All the bookies that give tons of cash to MLB probably don’t like them retroactively changing stats. Especially on things people will be gambling on.
Great video, love the deep dives
I always love when you do pitch accuracy comparisons over on JM...overlays of pitch placement. Might be fun to see how accurate a pitcher when compared to the catcher's call.
this is an incredible deep dive
My coach Al always said, if that ball hits your glove and its dropped. You better pray it has a hole in it already because he about to make one and get you a new one.
To counter, if that's a hit than isn't every extraordinary catch a hit? Or at least count towards on base. What if they make make the throw? The only reason he reached base is an error. If somebody robs a home run you don't count it on the stats as a home run just because it required extraordinary effort. That should only matter to make hard plays not an error for the fielder
After taking your lowest pitch hit query and expanding the years to all available, looks like the lowest ball hit is actually Padres pitcher Daniel Camarena hitting a grand slam off Scherzer back in 2021. Pretty cool
You can have two scoring decisions one one play. The error is on the runner advancing.
Jimmy is always in his element with his 3 things. So much better to see him be happy about talkin ball and nerding out for us compared to when he was doing talking baseball 3 times a week
I've missed ya jimbo! love when ya get nerdy
I like Jimmy's 3 things. But I do wish Jimmy was on talkin baseball more :)
Jimmy, I have an idea for a video. Watching Vogelbach getting a double made me wonder if a player like Vogelbach has ever had a triple before. Doing a video on batters who end up with specific results that are like 1% chance, would be cool to see a breakdown. Don't know if it's possible, just throwing the idea out there
Foolish Baseball did a video about this exact topic! ua-cam.com/video/UHordUNEyao/v-deo.html
Great work. I didn’t know you can score a hit and issue an error.
They're different parts of the same play. A batter can reach on a hit, but then he or another runner could also advance farther due to an error.
Example #1: batter hits a line drive to center field. Center fielder plays it on a couple of bounces, but bobbles it. The batter sees the bobble, and goes to second. The OS would rule that the batter reached first on a single, then advanced to second on an E8.
Example #2: batter hits a slow ground ball to third. He beats out the throw, which sails over the head of the first basean. The batter then scrambles to second before the defense can retrieve the ball. The OS would rule a single allowing the batter to reach, then a throwing error allowing him to go to second.
Mountcastle is a monster and he is having an amazing year so far. Clearly he should be rewarded for keeping this ball in the infield and not given an error.
Love this series
Adding the position played to that spreadsheet would be super interesting.
i appreciate tf outta this.
Jimmy really love these videos man. The time and effort you put into these with everything else going on with the company is awesome. I look forward to this every week!
It should be a single regardless of whether the first baseman caught it or not.
It was a tough catch by the first baseman and a rocket shot to the gap.
Even if he is out at first? Why is it a single if the pitcher drops it and not a single if he catches it?
He wasn’t out at first. That’s the point. Obviously if he makes the play he’s out lol.
The tough catch at first is only the first part of the overall play. Scorers don't rule based on the totality of the play, we have to consider each element separately. It's all enumerated in the MLB Case Book.
If you rob a HR do you think it should count on the stats? If the fielder doesn't make an extraordinary play its a HR
Hey Jimmy, I absolutely love these. Idea for a deep dive - after watching Moncada go down. Why, over the last couple of years do all of the White Sox players seem to go down with leg injuries running, mostly to first base? There has to be some thing going on here. I’ve never seen players consistently get injured just running year after year the way this team does.
That Angels announcer was airing all of MLB's dirty laundry and sounded fed up already even though the season basically just started. This is going to be an interesting year for MLB.
Ty France went on paternity leave! And then got 3 hits when he came back
Could we get a Jomboy Media hosted Analytics course? Pretty sure I could become a beast at Excel/Sheets if it was focusing on baseball
Love the deep dive!
Re: quality at bats, Ty France had a baby, he’s not platooning 😊
Jomboy needs to be on that committee as an overseer
Id be down with that, but he first needs to read Rule 9 then the entirety of the MLB case books. His whole run on why there was a hit and an error called on the same play tells me he has never actually scored a game.
Not usually a commenter but wanted to share some insight as a someone who has taken a training session from an MLB official scorer and has been an official scorer at the college level.
1. Scorers are told that there is a separation between the field and the throw. Once the 1B makes a clean stop on the dive, the throw is evaluated separately so if the throw, which can be deemed fairly routine, is bad or if an on-target throw is clearly dropped, it can be an E3 on the throw or an E1 on the catch to allow the runner to reach 1st.
2. Full timing of the play would show that if the pitcher catches the ball, he beats the runner to 1st and the runner would be out so not completing the play created the runner to be safe. If they deemed the play beyond the diving stop to be routine, there’s merit for an error ruling.
Very difficult to determine in full speed but slowing it down can help those determinations so if MLB is going to use slow mo replay to determine safe/out on the field, it has to be used to make the most accurate ruling on hit/error.
Can absolutely see both sides, just wanted to add additional insight from someone who’s been trained.
Oh nice, a fellow OS!
In your opinion was Mountcastle's throw and/or Baumann's catch beyond ordinary effort? I think they were but Baumann's catch is the toughest determination. My guess (or hope) is that players' panel had other angles that showed how catchable the ball was for Baumann. The high home angle looks like he was having to reach back and down toward his shin/ankle to catch it, all while running to his right. If the throw was higher than it appeared to us, or more centered, then I could see how they settle on an E1 A3.
I was really surprised by the change personally as I thought it was not an ordinary effort play for Mountcastle to throw from his knees to a 6-5 moving target…I think it’s a single and a throwing error on Mountcastle and thought the first change by the scorer was correct.
Additionally, I’m a scorer in NCAA and MiLB as well. Ironically after I took the test in 2022, I was asked if I had gotten the answers before hand. When I said no and asked why, they told me while once in a while they get a perfect score, no one had ever gotten one as fast as mine (I didn’t even pay attention that it was timed). So I have that going for me.
@@MLBScoringChangesdo you think it wasn’t a missed catch by the pitcher? I saw it as a great play and a good enough throw and the pitcher just missed it but I’m not as qualified as you.
No one goes into the weeds like Jomboy for content
5:01The original call was a single and a throwing error, allowing the other runner to advance. Very common.
"i went and found..." always brings a smile to my face
The juxtaposition of jimmy’s 3 things vs the “regular” talkin baseball episodes has been great. It’s really nice to get this mid week deep dive into the topics that might just be mentioned and glossed over in the other talkin baseball eps.
love your research
Albies had one lower than that last night. He didn't hit it off the dirt but it was close
love these vids!
Thank you so much for making this. It might sound kinda dumb but the baseball world needs to hear about this story. It’s pathetic by the MLB
My question is, why does the error ruling end his on base streak? He still reached base on the play regardless, that's what I'm confused about.
yes errors dont count towards that
The white balance is super funky on this video, almost like it was crushed down from HDR without clean tone mapping.
The MLB video looks fine, it's everything else. Weird!
Awesome research on the error change, really sucks that happened and the worst way to have his streak end. No way that DJ play is an error dude never had a chance of being out
What recording software do you use for these?
Maybe statistically the first two error calls fault the defense twice: the pitcher gets charged a hit and the first baseman is charged. It might be something super technical like not being able to "double-up/down" on stats.
How do you search for those specific kind of videos? lefty batters, dive to the right, hit distances etc...?
love these vids
“Take the streak into account” not as in “give him a W he doesn’t deserve for the sake of a streak” but as in “put an infielder on your committee to make sure you don’t mess this up.”
Thank you... Schanuel was screwed but not by who we thought. And BO NAYLOR...thank you also for that recognition as a Cleveland fan who thinks Bo is incredibly underrated in his approach. I love Josh, but that's hilarious he's the other end.
I know that entrance looked familiar! I was hammered in Omnia two weekends ago🤣🤣
Mets radio icon Wayne Randazzo for the win
This is the grade a Jomboy content we all crave
Make sure you are using values in the spreadsheet and not a formula in that cell. If you want to see if it works quickly just copy and then right click "paste values". Then try to sort the table.
Naylor brothers showed out on National Sibling day today!
I was at that Orioles/Angels game! Live, I felt it should have been a throwing error from the beginning. I am a HUGE Angels fan and Schanuel wasn’t cheated.
The other examples aren’t comparable, even the Yankees’ play. The Oriole 1st baseman was CLOSER TO FIRST BASE because he was holding the runner from taking second base. The Yankee player was nearly twice as far from first base when he was in a position to throw the batter/runner out.
FYI…You can have multiple scores on a play, especially with runners on base. That said, you cannot score a single base advancement with multiple scores. The original scored hit/error was a hit for the batter and error given that advanced another runner.
4:20 that’s a tough one. Definitely could be a hit cause of the initial hit by the hitter. But the throw was definitely an error. So idk.
That's a hit. Mountcastle made a great play to dive and get the ball, but then he has to throw it from his knees. It's either an error on him or Baumann, but honestly I don't think it should be an error on anyone. I think it should just be a hit.
Look at the Hiura play. He goes for it but it bounces off of his leg; not an error because it wasn't a routine play. Mountcastle can't get an error because it's not a routine play. Baumann can't get an error because the throw is low and he's trying to get to the bag. In other words, it's just a Schanuel hit.
Whose ever idea it was to put a little sepia tint over the documents is a genius. Love these videos but I felt like I just got done staring at an eclipse when they were over lol
Ty France was out for a few games on paternity leave, probably the only Mariner that could make the quality AB list
I think the rule should be, if you make an extraordinary effort to knock down a ball, you are free rolling to try to get the batter out. No errors possible unless the batter takes an extra base.
the angels announcer is 1000% right. i love him calling out the league
Does it count if you come up and Angel Hernandez calls the first two pitches strikes, even though they were a combined 3 feet outside and you're forced into a weak swing at a carpy slider?
The error may not have been on the play at first. There were runners at 1st and 3rd. The official scorer has to account for every base that is advanced by every runner. If the runner at 1st took third because of the throw
on catch, an error would be assessed to account for the base. The fact that the first baseman made a great stop on the ball is immaterial if there was time to make the play at 1st. It all boils down to whether there was time to make the out at first with ordinary effort AFTER the 1st baseman's initial dive. As a former HS coach, I can tell you that the pitcher covering 1st base is practiced often. They are not just pulling it out of their butt. It is drilled into them, especially in spring training. The 1st basemen on the team are also involved in the drill and they know how to lead the pitcher. This play is not a one off, let's improvise kind of play. It is DRILLED into every pitcher and 1st baseman.
Simply put, all that matters is what happens AFTER the stop by the 1st baseman
That was a hit. You can also have an error if a different player advances a base (there was a runner on first).
They originally called it a single with an error because the runner at second went to third after the ball got away. You cannot score a hit AND an error for Schanuel on the same play. The error is in play for the just the base runner.
Love to see the founder still makes the best baseball content at the company. Good work Jimmy, these videos never disappoint