D Bit Grinder Modification Part 2 - Upgrading the Upgrade
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- Опубліковано 1 гру 2022
- In this video I want to share the final version of the feed screw indexing mechanism I showed in my last video. I also discuss the pro's and con's of the different configurations for sharpening 4 flute end mills. I also share a hard stop version modification sent to me by a viewer, Chuck Saunders. Thanks Chuck.
- Наука та технологія
Model Engineers Workshop July 2019 has a series of 2 articles that show additions, including making an arm that sets depth.
Nice looking grab-and-twisty thing! And thanks for the additional explanations on the not-so-obvious issues with the configuration. I think the two video parts work well together; I'm glad you added this one.
Hey Marcus i stumbled across your videos while looking for info on the d bit grinder i bought 8 months ago and it has been at work ever since collecting dust so i bought it home to figure out how to use it [the manual may as well be written in Chinese] , now i know who to see
Cheers Bruce
Thanks Bruce. The manual for mine is next to useless. There are some good videos on YT showing how to use the unit for more complex setups. Blondihacks, Stefan Gotteswinter and Projects Down Under have some excellent resources on these units. Hope to catch up in the new year!
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 Hey Mark The stop you made was the first thing i picked up on when i was setting up some end mills and drills thinking there has to be a stop some where, yes there are some good YT videos out there and i am sure i will be watching them at some stage. If i am heading up your way i will get your number off John and i mite drop in and check out your set up
Cheers Bruce
Have a good Xmas
1. You don’t need to hold against the spring, you can use your knob to move it out away from the wheel. 2. you don’t need to look at the edge you’re cutting while you’re cutting it, look at the opposite edge and stop when it approaches the wheel. 3. The entire protractor scale spins, for this reason. Set your zero, spin your protractor to where you want it, move the head. I still think you’re solving a problem that doesn’t exist. But that’s totally OK, :) Whatever works for you, is what works for you! Enjoyable vid, as always. Cheers!
David, all valid points and at the end of the day there's more than one way to skin a cat. I think these machines are called universal grinders for that reason. I looked for but couldn't find the nod scale rotation on the workhead. I know you can rotate and set the scale for the vertical rotation but maybe I didn't look hard enough. It's actually a bit annoying that those scales can be rotated since it wouldn't have been too hard to provide negative scale markings.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 Yep, absolutely agreed! And i think there is significant variation from model to model with these things too. The whole “spring or no spring” thing being a good example of that. Seems depending on what name is painted on the side will determine the details of its features. I think, like most Chinese clones of better tools, there is little to no thought given to the design, its features, and how or why it works the way it does. They get some general measurements and reproduce a facsimile that will broadly do whatever “thing” it’s supposed to do. But may or may not do so very intuitively, or in a logical manner. XD
@@DavidHerscher that's the chinks for you in a nutshell. The Generals who own these companies only want your hard earned cash. They couldn't give a you know what about quality or whether the tool actually works.
Looks great.
I’m looking forward to the day Preso gets a fiber laser with a rotary axis for adding graduations to his knobs!
Ha, me too! Have you got yours yet?
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 No rotary yet. The OEM upgraded rotary (rated for heavier parts and equipped with a larger chuck) is $3500. I have to save up!
Great video production/discussion/demonstration/build…..thanks for sharing
As usual, fantastic work.Thankyou Mark
Great video. Very comprehensive.
Hi Mark, this second release is pretty nice. I also like Chuck Saunders's mod. Good sharing
Didier
Very nice modification, and I think making the hubs for your wheels is an excellent idea. 🤔. The more I watch your videos on this , the more I think I need one 😂😂 !
More important than inconviniance is that carbide do not like to be grinded "away from the edge".
As any very hard material, it is prone to micro chiping.
When you grind it away from the edge, there is no support behind the grinding point.
When you grind it against the edge, trhere is material behind the edge that suppot it, so it will not chip, or at least will chip much less.
As I remember... Stefan also mentioned this in a clip about slow speed grinder.
That's interesting. I hadn't thought of that. I did use that same cutter that I reground to cut a 22mm deep groove in some malleable iron yesterday. I did 4 passes at 5mm deep each and then 1mm DOC full depth conventional milling passes to widen the slot to 18mm and it performed perfectly. I am glad I could put it back into service.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 As we talk at prevous video.. in this case, it si helics that cut most of the material.
Anyway.. it will cut, even with microchiping, just will dul sooner.
Good work again Mark. Those new knobs look like they came with the machine as originals, nice match up.
Thanks. I think I got lucky there. However the glass bead blasting does do a great job of making things look pretty.
Regards,
Mark
Gday Preso, this modification was definitely worth the effort, there’s a lot involved in sharpening endmills, great video mate, Have a great weekend mate, cheers
Thanks Matty. I was very happy to throw that horrid black plastic knob in the bin.
Regards,
Mark
Finish looks pretty close to factory. Thx for the vid.
That lock handle to the right makes it a little easier, you don't have to hold against the spring to make your adjustment. I pull it towards me, lock the shaft, then I'm free to unlock and rotate the cutter to look at what I've done. I tend to set a cut depth, cut all 4 edges, then look at the progress, since it needs to be even on all edges anyway.
Since you're nodding the machine you might as well rotate the scale 45 degrees or make another so it's more like the real deckel. Regardless, whichever works for you is the right way!
I'm tempted to put taper pins in at the -5 and -12 degree angles, much more repeatable than a scale
Looks good.
I also prefer cutting from the outside. Also, it’s preferable to grind going towards the edge, rather than away from the edge.
That certainly looks good. The wonderful thing about this grinder is you can do it a lot of different ways just like the 51 flavors ice cream folks. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
Thanks Harold. More than one way to skin a cat I say!
Regards,
Mark
They only have 31 flavors Harold. You're imagining the rest.
@@1pcfred well they should take this opportunity to get some more.
@@AmateurRedneckWorkshop They change a few now and again.
I zero my scale on 10 degrees so I can get negative angles if I need them. I am looking forward to seeing you make some wheel holders. I might make some of those. The great knurling on those knobs tells me you might have built that knurler on the quiet!
John, I have just been reminded that the nod scale can be rotated. I looked for a locking screw but evidently I didn't look hard enough. I have not yet made the Hemmingway knurler. I have the materials and I ordered and received the knurling wheels from Hemmingway. I did make a similar calliper style knurling tool many years ago but it's a bit rough and I think I can do a better job now that I have a decent milling machine. The arms don't track as well as they should but if you knurl in one direction only it gives a good pattern. I have to make a pallet for my rotary table and some other bits and pieces but it's coming together.
Regards,
Mark
👏👌
Nice job Mark. Nothing worse that a sloppy fit in the hole!
Nice work,Mark. It is as neat as I expected to see from you👌.I do see the issues with grinding from the outside more clearly now,thanks for taking the time to explain the cons of that set up. For grinding from the outside to work and you still have good visibility would require being able to move the workhead over to the rear side of the wheel and possibly reverse the wheel spindle rotation.
Have you seen any of Robin Renzetti's (robrenz channel)videos on modifying one of these cloned D bit grinders? Robin does some fantastic work so well worth a look at his channel.
One other improvement I could suggest is a straight shanked handle with a ball end attached somewhere on the workhead casting as such an addition would give you greater and more precise control over movement of the workhead when swivelling the cutter in and out across the wheel face. I think this handle would be best sited to be pointing upwards or slightly angled towards the user.
Howard, I did watch Robin Renzetti's video series and of course I was extremely jealous of his attention to detail. I have seen Stefan Gotteswinter's upgrades too. The one takeaway from both those series was the need to have dust extraction when grinding carbide. My son sent me an article about a worker in New Zealand who ended up with cobalt poisoning from exposure to carbide dust. Evidently it builds up in the liver and it's one of the heavy metals so it's extremely toxic. Scary stuff! The handle would be a good addition.
Regards,
Mark
👍👍😎👍👍
Look up Robin Renzetti UA-cam on modifying his d bit grinder. He has a third method of adding a stop that is very precise. Thankyou for showing both stop methods. I have a similar grinder and I bought extra hubs. Time verses money.
I have watched most of Robin's video but I need to go back and have another look. I think I watched it before I owned my grinder. Hare and Forbes (where I bought my grinder) does sell the hubs for $55 each and I only really need two for the diamond wheels but I do have some other (non diamond) wheels with bores that are less than 20mm. I think you are correct that it's hardly worth making the hubs.
Regards,
Mark
I always worry about fool proof ideas,Nature is always ready with a better fool and I have a sneaking suspition that I will be that fool.
I’m extremely lucky to live in thr Bay Area in ca as I buy from machinist auctions and resell to support my own building my own collection of tooling and machined up but most thr machines near San Fran are lightly used by research labs or similar companies or if I buy enough to justify thr gas down in la 6 hour drive away theirs do many machine shop auctions and stuff goes dirt cheap for example I got a Kent surface grinder in good condition for 75$ and two ko lee tool cutter grinders one for 25$ with a couple attachments and another for 150 with just about every accessorie they made . But I have a habit of thinking I want a machine and then getting it all the way home and realizing I’m a lot more ambitious than the amount of space that I have in my garage and that it was selling the machine because I don’t have a room I need more buying selling I do using machines partially I wish I had more patience and more ability to focus like you do
I was lucky enough to visit San Francisco and as part of the tour we were able to take a look around Autodesk and their makerspace in the pier district. One aspect of the tour that impressed me was the reallocation of former industrial sites to maker communities. I hadn't realised that a lot of the filming of Mythbusters had taken place in Alameda. I think it's important to keep those resources for startups, maker groups and community engineering projects. We here in Australia are very jealous of the diversity of machine tools and accessories that are available in other countries. What we can get is usually overpriced and worn out. It makes me quite sad!
Regards,
Mark
That turned out really great! Nice effort! Chuck's version is also very interesting and, possibly, more rugged, but I guess you'll do great with your own design :-)
Curious to see the truing up of the cups. I have one of those (bought for a contraption I never built) and found the same problem - my solution, to set it in the lathe as true as possible, skim the outside and bore the center hole to a diameter that allows placing a collar that fits the motor axle and the newly bored cup in a true position (not perfect, but good enough).
I am surprised that those Chinese made diamond wheels are as badly made as they are. Still, they are cheap. I think Cliff from Thread Express mentioned that diamond wheels used to be seriously expensive purchase back in the day. The radial runout is a real issue if you are trying to stop the grinding process accurately at the centre of the cutter but I think I can dress that out. I have to make the hubs first though.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 Yep, those cups are cheap and sloppy, but worth the effort of truing them. Will be pleased to see how you address this 🙂
Yup just an aluminum oxide block trues up and sharpens those resin wheels nicely
Mark I use one of the square digital angle finders on my T&C grinder all you need is a reference surface to mag it to. My grinder is a Kennet so a bit different but the digital makes L setting so much easier.
Tony, I have one of those magnetic angle boxes. I hadn't thought of using that but the little indexing knob works and it was fun to make. The idea of a hard stop is even better. I often overlook how useful those little digital angle finders can be.
Regards,
Mark
Mark, have you watched Stefan Gotteswinters video about upgrading these Deckel clones? Very useful. Based on Rob Renzettis work, several video from Robrenz as well.
Luke, I have watched both of those video series and the modifications would make a massive improvement to the accuracy of the machine. I noticed that Stefan had offloaded the drill bit sharpening attachment and the spiral flute grinding head on his machine noting that they are hard to use and not really up to the task. I haven't tried using either of those attachments yet. The drill bit sharpener is only good for large diameter bits and it needs a fair bit of modification to make it easy to use. I have the printed notes on how to improve it and I will one day get around to that mod. The spiral flute grinder attachment looks useable as is but Stefan said it wasn't rigid enough to be accurate. I need to practise on some old rusty bits first I think.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 love the videos Mark. Have a great Christmas mate 👍👍
Ignore the "this is the right way to do it" crowd. The right way to do something is the way that (a) works correctly, and (b) works best for you with the equipment and materials you have on hand and your personal circumstances.
Exactly!
Regards,
Mark
Nicely done a usual. You mentioned that you had built a Quorn. They look like versatile machines and I am wondering what the advantages are of the Deckel over the Quorn.
I made the Quorn at a time when I didn't have a lot of cash to spend in my workshop. It can do everything the Deckel clones can do but one of the most important features is a helical groove in the main column to allow for raising and lowering the grinding spindle accurately. I didn't have any way of adding this feature so I left it out. It turns out that without that groove it's very hard to carry out some setups. I also had a lot of trouble seeing the graduations and locking the rotations of the workhead. I persevered with it for a long time and eventually I broke down and bought the D Bit grinder instead. I will still use the motor/pulley and grinding spindle of the Quorn as a 4 facet drill grinder project that I am planning for next year.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 Thanks Mark.
Hi Mark good video ,to refine thec finish on the aluminium after bead blastine i use a small rock tumbler wiith
Stainless Steel Tumbling Media Shot for the size of your items i cuess about 25min would be the tumble time
any how food for thought.
regards
ken
Thanks Ken. I have been interested in getting a vibratory or rotary tumbler for a while now. I did make a vibratory tumbler but I had trouble getting the correct media for it. It's also noisy and you almost need to run it overnight to get any sort of result with it. I will investigate further.
Regards,
Mark
Hey Mark, I've got the exact machine as yours which i bought from hare and forbes,
Just wondering where you got the cone shaped diamond cutting wheel from?
I want a flat one as well as the cone shaped one but
Hare and forbes don't sell them in the small diameter.
Paul, there are lots of them for sale on Ebay. You just need to get one with a 20mm bore in the wheel. www.ebay.com.au/itm/313447813253?hash=item48faf21085:g:K8gAAOSw22RgRumx&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8PuTZX2MohxYRA36gTJmwaOhHGnWejzh0c%2FHTKpqJCeQ6bs8Zc3Nwa0go8tdVS7WxWrYggz4eaG%2BUsq91bECnPXxKj%2Balb2tduDlxQyp6EMpUAafUP9JuOpeDLvtnEiv4349OSKJygPRb5EpwXy3GvhhufhMfpqHni2BGseixN%2FD9%2BSQFbeNvWnlhbfr8pJE6QeG5rUGqRGuBw7NESqkk7ZKfeSxcluN5IVVtPTXKrzFhHX1Ctvit1V4TPisQ1Cz%2FmOTm9qK4VjDL2IAJJN4OASmDhSXhF%2FxSvbJkUVXaKaKBKIHfMhLjfflZP7JUBfOfw%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABFBMwMeE8Jxh
Regards,
Mark
Hey Mark do you use this grinder on other items in the workshop?
And what’s the largest tool that you can fit into 5c collet system.
Hi, I use the D bit grinder for sharpening lathe tools, especially chamfering tools and thread cutting tools. There is an accessory that holds HSS blanks but it needs to have some auxiliary fixtures made for smaller sized blanks. These are easily made and I have a set for 6mm, 1/4", 8mm, 5/16" etc. I also made a special slotting tool for cutting a 2mm keyway in a flywheel and I have sharpened large diameter drill bits with it. I believe the largest 5C collet is around 22mm internal bore. ER collets go up to 26mm but the geometry of these grinders don't lend themselves to ER collet chucks.
The name D Bit grinder is a bit misleading as they are capable of much more than the name implies.
Regards,
Mark
After anodising (at least from the distance you showed both dials at the same time here) the new one looks almost indistinguishable in terms of finish compared to the factory one. Up close may be a different story, but does that really matter if the part does the job you need it to do?
Ryan, the colour is a good match but the texture is a bit coarser on the ones that I made. The anodising helps to keep the surface from going grey as aluminium tends to do with age and it also makes the surface much harder. If you scratch an anodised surface with a scriber you can hear it crunch as you bite through the coating.
At the end of the day it's just cosmetic and totally unnecessary for the application but I like playing with the anodising process. I am gradually refining the workflow and after lots and lots of failures I think I have eliminated most of the bad techniques. It's only taken about 6 years to get it right!
Regards,
Mark
Having had a Deckel and sold it I wanted another one but to a different design concept so redesigned the concept and am now 3/4 into the build.
In the video I see the swing head is almost hard against the right-hand swing shaft bearing support.....this is daft as the swing head cannot use the length of shaft that is in the left-hand body of the grinder, also you cannot use the other side of the grinding wheel something I am redesigning out of the new build.
The Deckel clones do seem to have a lot of limitations which is odd considering they are replicas created by a well respected tool maker. Robin Renzetti and Stefan Gotteswinter both modified their versions to allow for some extra travel on the work head. It is interesting that they are sold as D bit grinders and not tool and cutter grinders.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 Well I expect as the original Deckel was specifically designed for grinding D bits for engraving I expect they are being politically correct..........you can grind tools, if you have the right tool holder or an adaptor, but there is a limitation with cutters like end mills and slot drills.........I am interested in doing a 2 facet grind on drill bits to see if it is practical and worth the effort........I can't see why not.
@@gangleweed I was hoping that I could grind small drill bits using my tool but I have come to the conclusion that you would need a 5C collet for every size of drill bit that you would want to grind, metric and imperial. I bought a 5C to ER collet chuck but it is too long to allow for any extension of the drill bit. I am planning to build a stand alone drill bit grinder with the motor and spindle from my Quorn tool and cutter grinder and a special work head which I found the plans for on this site gadgetbuilder.com/DrillSharp.html The machine I want to build is right at the bottom of the article. I have all the parts I need, I just need to get a couple of other projects out of the way first.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 Very true.....I'm not a great fan of the 5C system as it's too limiting in diam holding.....the grinder I'm currently building is like a Deckel with the swing head but it will have the ability to move the motor/grind head across the base to get access to the other side hopefully for helix grinding......tool holding will be a problem as it has it's own collet system so a new spindle will be on the cards, possibly ER32............with a new ER32 spindle the only stick out will be the length of the collet nut.
For 4 facet drill grinding I think I'll make a tool holder/spindle to mount in the swing head just to hold drills with ER32 collets......that will cover all drills up to 12mm in straight shank and any cutters up to 20mm diam.
Just a thought. Could you use a micrometer head instead of a stop screw and would that level of accuracy be useful.
I am sure a micrometer stop of some kind would be preferable but I was after a fairly non invasive solution and something that I could knock up quickly.
Regards,
Mark
Hi Mark, do you have an Aussie source for the Laser grade foil/plastic? thanks :)
I got mine from Trotec. www.troteclaser.com/en-au/laserable-materials/laser-engraving-plastic-sheets
You have to sign up with an account but the prices are reasonable and it's good quality. I bought some from a Chinese seller on Aliexpress a few years ago and it's not very good. The white layer goes grey when it's engraved and it makes a lot of black smoke which stains the lighter coloured layers. The Trotec stuff is much easier to use. When I was signing up with Trotec you get asked a lot of questions about your location and what sort of business you run. I just made some stuff up and they gave me an account anyway. I thought that maybe they wouldn't want to sell small quantities but there were no questions asked about that. They are also expanding their range with anodised aluminium and some other laserable products.
Regards,
Mark
@@Preso58 Thanks Mark, I will arrange to buy a little stash and let you know if I find a local option. :)
I’m seeing prominent “Machinery House” (Hare and Forbes?) stickers on some Australian UA-cam channels lately. Are they on a sponsoring blitz or is it just because they are a major supplier?
Ian, it's unlikely they would sponsor anyone since they are about the only game in town when it comes to purchasing tools and machinery. Most of what they sell is made in Taiwan and compared to what you can buy on Ebay it's not exactly cheap. They do have large stores in all the capital cities and a few regional locations though. The D Bit grinder that I bought is selling for $1600 including tax. You can get a similar clone on Ebay for less but I found that some of the Ebay sellers machines don't use standard 5C collets and some don't ship with all the accessories. One other thing about Hare and Forbes is that they are very good at their online business and I can get things delivered to my door within a few days.
Regards,
Mark