Yes, and that's completely fine. In that case it clearly does not appeal to you. Also, I will add, there are still plenty of avenues for recruiting in game. Heck, about half my group came from my own FC. It just so happens that a lot of communities exist on Discord. By the way, this is no different from recruiting people for regular 8man savage/ultimate content, or even obscure stuff like BA/DRS/BLU content. Nor is it nothing new. Did people complain they had to use Teamspeak back in the day "oh, you guys should facilitate a voice chat for us in the game!"? I really don't understand where the whole issue with seeking solutions outside the game comes from.
@@imacuttlefish6832 You can do savage,ultimate and bluemage on party finder. Baldesion arsenal etc are not doable on PF and thats why I can never do them.
@ Yeah I guess there are parties for BLU savage fights on occasion, though it's gonna be a lot harder to get all the fights done, especially if you want to do the ones not related to the Morbol mount (o12s and e12s). Ultimates only become feasible to PF after the fight is a bit old. Even then, as long as the PFing discords like LPDU mandate cheating, I don't really care about it being pug-able if it comes at the cost of the game's integrity. This at least applies to EU, I don't know about other regions. But that's a bit of a hot take and a topic for another time.
Something I've noticed about players is they are really, REALLY bad at giving feedback. They don't know the difference between "this is not good content" and "this is not good content for me"
I saw a very similar thing take place in Old School Runescape. Whenever they tried polling, say, PvP updates, you had a bunch of morons deliberately vote against it-purely because they wanted the devs to solely focus on the content they wanted added. It's a rather annoying entitled mentality.
1. Skill issue is part of it, but eventually it comes down to personal accountability which includes having some patience with others. Soft skills such as patience are just as important when working with others. I find the FFXIV community (NA at least) to be very selfish when it comes to party content. They claim to be a very "progressive" community, but they never "pay it forward" like truly progressive people do. Once they get their burger king crown they quit giving out comms, and once they clear a fight they don't want to help others. I haven't made many friends in the 6 years I have played this game because I find most people are very selfish in FFXIV even compared to WoW. I'm still friends with people from WoW because we made connections by raiding together, failing together, and helping each other. 2. And yes, "gamers" complain about difficulty so a dev will make it more difficult (see Wildstar). Then gamers will complain the content is too hard. You see this in all MMO's because they don't understand the difference between an MMO and stand alone RPG design-wise. 6. I was with a group that did EX3 blind. Did it take us longer? Yes, but we only met about 2 hrs per week and skipped some weeks (holidays). Funny enough, we passed ice phase the exact same week as some acquaintances who were using Hector strats and met more frequently. it took us 2-3 weeks longer to clear than them, but if we were to compare the actual hours it took to clear I genuinely think our blind group would be in the lead. BUT in those weeks we didn't meet, we were still communicating and discussing the best way to handle certain mechanics based on the jobs present.
The point about difficulty is so true. Players will complain that content is too braindead and too easy, so developers ramp up the difficulty, then all the moaning starts. This has happened in FFXIV many times. Abyssos, for example. People kept complaining healing is too easy, so they ramped up the damage for that tier, and then they said the heal checks are bad. I remember Yoshida and the devs being legitimately confused. But that's often how it is. People don't know what they want. I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the blind experience! That's awesome.
"Once they get the clear, they don't want to help others." I host learning parties regularly, and typically half the slots fill with players who say they are just there to help out. I also host mount farm parties, and there's always one or two who already got the mount but join just to help.
@ Aye, there are always those dedicated players willing to stick around and help others get their clear. Because that experience in itself is rewarding for some. Sure, it helps to have added incentives to do so, as is the case with Chaotic, but what content like BA and DRS demonstrate is that you technically don't even need it. Just a nice lil bonus, really.
My only gripe was the release, since it felt wrong to release something like this on Christmas Eve. I just couldn't be asked to try this by the time I got home (not to mention that the armor honestly didn't interest me)
Aye, that's fair! It definitely miffed us as well, because we figured we'd simply do it on release, but nope, had to delay it by a few days. Which was extra annoying in our case because we also had to pray that everyone remained blind for all 3 of those days and not look anything up. It worked out in the end, but I could scarcely believe it when they pulled this for the second time already.
The fight being a bad PF experiance is a pretty valid complaint. You can say "just be social join a static/discord/etc" But also not everyone can be in a static depending on their irl schedule. PF is just so much more flexible. Being able to go and get a party whenever you want and raid for any amount of time is just something that is quite valuable. Its not always practical to schedule time with 24 people. So unfortnettly this is just a form of content that for someone like me, my only option is to PF and have a poor experiance or not do it at all which sucks.
If it's a valid complaint, I invite you to answer this question: valid complaint for _whom_? The developers? If so, what do you expect them to do about it? That's a genuine question, by the way. Because as I see it, when this content is ran as organised groups, or in JP, it works perfectly fine. It only falls apart in PF on NA/EU. What responsibility do the developers have to address that? And more to the point, _how_ would they even address it? On the topic of being unable to make a group. I quite struggle to relate to this as someone who has raided in plenty of statics where most players have irregular and busy schedules, across all levels of content, including ultimate. I know this isn't what you said, but this sentiment to me gives this implication that all raiders are NEETs with infinite time. But that's not true. Most players have obligations, they have rl get in the way, they may have irregular working schedules. You make it work regardless. Sometimes sessions get rescheduled or canceled altogether. Sometimes you may need to get subs. That's just how it is. If 8 players come together and have a desire to play together, they'll arrange the time for it. It's the same for 24 players. Did I have some hassles with scheduling with the Chaotic? Absolutely, and it's a headache you just have to deal with as the organiser. Not to mention that I am quite busy with real life myself, with plenty of obligations. But we got 24 players together on all 3 our raid days, and we ended up doing a reclear session for those who missed the clear (because we had more than 24 players in the group precisely because of scheduling). There are of course very rare cases of individuals who have such insanely chaotic schedules that they simply cannot do this. But as I point out in the video, these are extremely rare from my experience. And therefore shouldn't even be considered in the argument, seeing as they are outliers. PF is flexible, aye, but it comes at a price. If you willingly pay that price, that's fine. My video doesn't address players who simply use PF. My video addresses players who used PF *and* then went on to criticise the developers, expecting them to fix their own problems, that they themselves are responsible for addressing.
I really enjoyed the fight, cleared it in pf and had a good time. I expected the usual pf shenanigans with rage quitting and prog lying and of course that would be excacerbated since its 24 players and not 8 man, so since I had those expectations I was not surprised at all. Good fight in my opinion. In general I think they're moving in the right direction with fight design in Dawntrail.
I love that chaotic is so accessible unlike BA and DRS. I think the people that complain about pf to no end are the same people who dont have any patience and expect to just clear content without any hiccups whatsoever. Pf shenanigans are part of the experience, and it's honestly so funny to me hearing people early on saying, "dont do this fight in pf or pf can't handle this." I farmed everything i wanted from chaotic and all of it in pf.
I actually think BA/DRS having those gatekeepy elements was a positive. Because it helped better filter out the entitled players. In retrospect, I kind of wished Chaotic had some gatekeeping element, such as maybe requiring a clear of m1s to unlock it.
@@imacuttlefish6832 maybe, but I think it's a good thing so many people who have never done anything harder than an extreme gave it a try. With Chaotic I just really like the fact you can just go in and do it. There's room for improvement of course, but I hope they continue to make more of them. I also hope like you said, they ignore the feedback on people complaining about the difficulty. Chaotic is some of the best fun I've had in a while.
@@davidbernardino8109 I don't think it's a concern anymore either way. Because now players know exactly what they are getting with Chaotic (I'd argue they ought to have known even before it came out but that's besides the point), so I don't think those gatekeeping elements are important for future releases. Aye, I agree, it was a nice change of pace and I too look forward to the next one for sure
Think part of the issue is Square Enix is a small indie company with only 5 people working on this game being paid minimum wage. Having 2 of those people working on Chaotic Raids instead of other content means we missed out on potentially better content. And while this is an exaggeration the whole 'just because x content got made doesn't mean they don't use resources on other content' is clearly not true when it comes to FFXIV. Square is not reinvesting in this game and making it impossible for them to make enough content to meet player needs.
square enix is having financial issues currently they kinda suck i guess at managing their funds so they're rolling back on alot after investing in so much of their projects
I think this could be a video of its own. The whole "they are an indie company" and that "they dont invest anything back into FFXIV" has some merit to it, but I think people also way oversimplify the matter. I'd like to dedicate an entire video to this topic at some point, or at the very least a portion of a video.
I understand redirecting resources to try new things, I just don't understand people's complaints when it comes to DT content since it's going to be the most stacked expansion for content since stormblood. People need to relax and let the devs work while giving constructive criticism and wait for the content they want to run. You can never make the whole community happy, I like difficult content, some people don't, I find dungeons braindead and hate running them, but some people love running dungeons. You can't make all people happy all the time.
i think releasing fru and then chaotic during american thanksgiving then christmas was just super unfortunate timing for me, because i work a full-time job and a part-time job, both of which get even busier during the holidays. pf was such a toss-up with 24 people that i got like 3 clears and then decided i didn't feel like wasting more of my time struggling to clear content that i was executing perfectly lol. it was a simple adult decision to acknowledge that it's not something i'm willing to pursue right now: very much the "well, this isn't for me anymore" approach i didn't love coming to the realization that some of this content isn't gonna be for me moving forward, but i never really interpreted this as something wrong with the content itself. not everything is going to be realistically doable for everyone. kinda reminds me of when people were mad about the axolotl mount being a savage drop lol
Aye, releasing the raid on xmas is definitely a valid complaint, especially given it's not even the first time. I can respect your approach. It's fine to say you don't like the content and simply decide I'm not doing it any more. I did the same regarding ultimates, which is why I never came back for FRU. Just wasn't the content for me at the time. I simply wish people didn't start needlessly bashing the developers over their personal frustrations and personal problems.
I'm in JP despite not speaking Japanese. PF was perfectly fine here to prog and farm. There's only one strat with no variation here. I don't even need to speak JP. I just type my role in chat (and use auto tl plugin to see what they're talking about) and hit boss. Most pfs have 3 wipes = disband rule so just join another one after those 3 wipes. Anyway fun content got my mount and made 30 mil from selling. Looking forward to the next one even if they'll likely make it easier.
Thanks for sharing the JP PF point of view. This also confirms something I've heard: that this fight is a rare exception of it being farmed in PF rather than in RF. But it does make sense, right. There are simply so many possible roles that it wouldn't be as feasible thro the RF. I like having a distinct rule in regards to the amount of wipes allowed in a farm party. When everyone has the same expectation, it gets around the issue NA/EU PF has where after a wipe or two, a couple of guys ragequit, but maybe some wanna stay, and now you have to wait to fill up again. Causes a lot more frustration, because there's no social agreement around how many wipes are acceptable. I think the JP perspective is important to take into account, because if the content works completely fine on there, as well as when it's ran by organised groups, we can better acknowledge that the issue doesn't lie within the content itself, but rather the PF on NA/EU specifically. After which the question becomes: are the developers responsible for addressing that, or should it fall within the community and indeed, individual players themselves, to fix their problem? I fall into the latter camp but obviously it's a pretty hot take, as this video demonstrates.
It's amazing content, and made me realize why i raid in the first place. To meet new people and experience new challenges together. To have fun with others and help each other do things we cannot do alone. Truth be told, I usually just raid older content blind and min ilvl with a group that slowly accumulated over time. Doing actual endgame raiding always felt so miserable to me once you've cleared. No one talks about anything beyond the initial strat setup, they just wanna get their book and be done for the week. That's not why i raid. I don't need the gear if i don't enjoy the fights, and M1S and M2S at least did not make me want to continue any further, so i just didn't do endgame raiding past the initial clears. AND NOW the Chaotic comes and painfully reminds me what i want the gear for. Reminds me that raiding is actually fun since your party members start talking after a wipe or between lockouts and listings, and I've been enjoying the fight so much I've now cleared it on almost every single role on both Codcar and Aurelia strats all in pf (only missing position is ranged on both strats).
Hahah you discovered the joys of blind prog, I am glad to hear it! A friend of mine once described it best: going back to regular raiding after blind prog is like taking a bite out of an apple right after you ate chocolate. You simply cannot taste the sweetness anymore.
23:03 - 25:19 So I agree with you there are egotistical people that play the game (3 Wipes equals disband) but yes other players can and do hold back others, throw me in valigarmanda ex and I promise you I wont die for 20 or 30 pulls but even in farm parties the same person will die every pull. Even in my last static I was getting a little frustrated because I would be perfect for the entire raid day but see no prog because others in the group couldn't figure out what I could 2 weeks ago. Now doing prog with 7 random people every time you want to do that fight makes it worse and now even worse with 23 others. Also yes some clear for friends are traps but to argue against that even their is a whole discord revolved around clear for ones called The Ulti Project and it works consistently getting people ultimate clears because PF or even their own statics are holding them back. In conclusion it is totally fair and reasonable to blame other players for holding you back because it does happen, you just need to make sure you're one of those really consistent players first.
You are right, I did simplify the topic for the sake of the video. While editing, I tried to add a little elaboration in text form that addresses your statement, which is that the two aren't mutually exclusive. On one hand, you have players lying about prog which can genuinely hold someone back. But there are also plenty of people who think way too highly of themselves. There is the issue of people getting carried as well, yes. This happens more often in Extremes and sometimes early savage floors, too. The player getting carried thinks they now have the golden ticket to enter farm parties, while in reality they are not ready to farm at all. You happen to get enough of such players in one group, and you are in trouble. Y'kno, I used to say this kind of stuff a lot as well back in like 2017. "Oh man, I just can't clear o4s, they are all trapping on black hole, I've been playing flawlessly for 2 weeks, and just need to wait to get 7 other players who don't mess up!" I eventually realized such statements are redundant. It's moaning for the sake of moaning, and yes, I believe there is an element of ego stroking in such sentiments as well. The reality is, you only need to worry about making sure that you yourself have done everything in your power to be a reliable participant in the raid. You do that, and eventually you are bound to get your clear. I would also invite people who say this to consider that in all of these "trash groups" that are failing, the common denominator there is you. And that you probably aren't the only one who thinks that way. Funny when all 8 players think that the 7 other players are the issue, right? If you have this issue in a static, as you described, then you are especially to blame. Because that is an entirely controlled environment. Good groups don't have this issue because, through trial and error, they managed to find likeminded players who also happen to be roughly on the same skill level. Also, just a personal thing, but if someone in my group expressed this kind of a sentiment, I would kick them without hesitation. Which I have actually done in the past. These kinds of players are more of a problem than the "people holding them back" ever are. There are players who pick up mechanics very fast, but they are extremely rare. In fact, in all my time of raiding, I only met a single person I would consider truly exceptional in that sense. One. Out of thousands of people I have come across. You think about those numbers and think to yourself, are you the exceptional guy, or is it more likely you are nothing special? Which is why, whenever I see statements like "the other players are holding me back", I immediately have a lot of skepticism towards such statements. First of all, it's not even true in all likelihood. But even if it is, why would a person be saying this, and what does it reveal about them?
@@imacuttlefish6832 of course there's a bit of ego in it (everyone has an ego) but there's different levels of ego for example I would never put three wipes equals disband in a pf description. also yes I can only focus on myself but that still doesn't change my prog point when I'm super consistent and they aren't. these trash group don't really tend to be groups either just 1-3 players that keep dying at the same spots. How is it my fault that in a static the same people keep dying also or rely on callouts to much? there's no way I can scout them out before playing with unless I go on fflogs but that just shows dps and not mechanic consistency. I agree people that let their ego get in the way should get kicked out of the group but that's not what I did, I was just silently frustrated (still like them all and may be doing next tier and uwu with them). With the speed at which you pick up mechanics I don't expect them to learn them super fast (still want it to be at a decent speed) as I know eventually there will be a mechanic that takes me a while to learn (P9S Soccer Ball) but once you learn it please be consistent at it and if you're in pf then you should be consistent up to the part that is being progged. So again other players do hold people back and again look back at my example for The Ulti Project. I feel like I should mention also this is from the perspective of an 8 man raider as I only tried Chaotic day 1 and after 6 hours couldn't get to tiles because every groups I went in couldn't understand the hands and stack mechanic. I'm all for taking responsibility I do it all the take and even when I used to play rocket league I never blamed my teammate for the loss but it mmos you can 100% blame others if you are consistent 9/10 times
I will always be of the opinion that the vast majority of content should be done in PF and to varying amounts of comfortability. This fight just isnt it though. I've cleared nearly 50 times and its pretty miserable overall. I also joined a static by accident meaning to just help a friend and the thing fell apart after one session where even my raiding friends didnt want to do it anymore. Its fine to have some rare content that just isnt feasible in PF like your ulti's or BA or DRS but the more content you tell people to look outside the game to do the less people will be interested. I've joined probably a dozen of said discords ranging from hunts to BA/DRS to blue mage and more and its annoying as hell to be told yet again to join another discord to do another piece of content. Said discords for me at least havent even provided that sense of community either, its just join and do content then bounce. Im looking forward to the next chaotic but Im seriously hoping for a chiller more fun PF experience similar to extremes. That and them making this be able to unsync in 8.0. At least in extreme PF I have fun more than I dont Small edit while its on my mind: I think this level of difficulty and misery would be fine if they content was like.... one and done style similar to ultis or even 8-10 clears like savages. But the rewards require you to spam it to get the untradeable mount. The marketboard comments you made I 100% agree with but if you want the stupid mount you have to treat this as an extreme level farm but with much worse clear rates. Even BA and DRS you only had to clear once for the mount and farm for either useless achieves or maybe rare drops that can be bought off MB. So I do hope they either lower the frustration or change the reward structure
I agree that there should be a healthy mix of content that requires more group coordination and one that is more feasible to do with a lower commitment. I think if the relic content in DT pans out similar to how it was in Bozja, we should get exactly that. This patch was definitely geared more towards the former, since it featured both the ultimate and the Chaotic. So I understand this sentiment, but I reckon in the scope of the entire expansion's lifespan it won't be as big of an issue. I'm not very invested in the rewards so take my opinion with a pinch of salt. But yes, I did find the mount requiring roughly the same amount of clears as an EX trial to be a strange choice. The minion is even more strange, as it cannot be purchased with the currency at all. I do understand where the devs are coming from, though. The most common complaint surrounding Criterion was that there weren't enough rewards, no incentive to keep doing it. So with Chaotic they wanted to make sure there was plenty reason to. You could say it was an overcorrection, perhaps, but I understand it nonetheless. Something I liked about BA/DRS is, as you said, it was simply one clear to get the most desirable reward (the mount), but you could keep farming them, which would improve your performance in that specific content itself. I actually liked that.
@@imacuttlefish6832 The rewards are a large part as to why I think chaotic has been so rough to be honest. The hair style in particular got people eyes which is usually a casual style reward for players. So you got a mix of players who both wanted a hard fight and players who just wanted the rewards. Yeah its marketboardable but thats not gonna stop people. That and chaotic had no lockouts period to stop players and gear is unlocked even to 730 for casuals when it dropped. To me Id say SE should lock it behind extremes or something else from the patch before like ultimates in the future. Unless they change the next fight or rewards structure which Id prefer instead.
Feedback from a person doing this fight in a static vs a player doing this purely in PF, on first 3 days when there are 5 different strats, will be very different. I live in EU but my char is on NA so there is a lot of difficulty to find static due time difference. I therefore always PF. This is absolutely PF-able. I cleared very early and it felt like the worst thing I done in my life >.> But then i made some macros to help call out lasers for people and eventually run it over 50 times in PF to get shoes and the cloud mount. The fight by itself is not really difficult. But its not what I was expecting from a 24 man ally raid, comparing it to BA and DRS is absolute invalid. Its nothing like those contents. Its a 24 man savage raid. In most cases once you cleared savage, there is very minimal discussion besides shittalking between people. Since the expectation is that you should know the plan, know the fight and just go in, no talk, fight, go out. To me thats not an mmo experience. I will wait out the new exploration zone so that we can get a new BA/ DRS like thing going on because that is what feels most like an mmo experience in this game for me. It gives a little bit of time between bosses, and encourages people to talk about the fight, during almost each fight, regardless if cleared before or not. I dont want to sit in a discord and say nothing on reclears for a raid that has majority of the people being toxic. And thus I am not doing chatoic now that I got all I wanted from it. Its okay to dislike a content. And its okaz to say it out loud that you dislike the content. But it doesnt mean that everyone will dislike it. But my biggest complaint with this was not that its a bad fight, its that its unfair towards casuals to have a new high end content squished in after savage and ultimate, and so now they will be waiting for almost 6-8 months to get to actually do something more than 2 hour of story play and a beast tribe... My complaint is that I dont get why they cannot push out ultimates and casual content like explor zones at the same time... So everyone gets to do something.
I think the only two times I compare this fight to BA/DRS is in regards to the fact that it will be kept alive by dedicated discord groups, and the punishment factor, although in hindsight, that comparison didn't really add much to the convo and could've easily been axed. It's okay to say you dislike content. What I don't find okay, personally, is when people take their frustrations out on the developers, especially when most of people's issues are really just their personal problems, ones that only they are responsible for solving.
tl;dr "I have a lot of friends and reliable acquaintances of high skill level so this is okay." Cool take. I have an irregular schedule, the only way I can do things is in very short PF bursts and just organizing the party is the worst part. There is nothing wrong with the fight, there is everything wrong with the effort it takes to put together a group. I'm seriously considering just eating the JP lag
Hmm, I can see how you might think that way, but many of the players in my group hadn't cleared ultimates, and quite a few of us hadn't even cleared the current savage tier. It might seem daunting to group together 24 players, but consider this: I don't even have a static. I simply recruited a few players from my FC, and a handful of friends, and the rest were players recruited by the contacts of those I had gotten in (their own friends/FC/static members).. You really don't need to know that many people. And funnily enough, all the friends I personally recruited, I originally met through PF in the first place and befriended them. I think there's some anxiety around using the PF as a networking tool, and it's a bit of a shame. While on this topic, I also feel the time investment for making your own group is way exaggerated in people's heads. Case in point, I work while studying at uni. I can appreciate it if your schedule truly is that chaotic that you absolutely cannot make it work. However, I can speak from personal experience, as I've been in statics in the past that had multiple people on irregular schedules, and they were able to make time on a casual schedule (which is all you need for content of this difficulty). Heck, I've cleared an ultimate in a group with people having irregular schedules. You'd be surprised at how accommodating people can be regarding scheduling issues. Most understand that life gets in the way and are patient, at least from my experience.
@@imacuttlefish6832 I have been playing this game since heavensward and have been putting together groups the entire time. I am aware of what networking is, and statics have been the most hellish and regrettable things I have dealt with in the game. It has been a despicable experience the whole way through and it is only my personal enjoyment of the mechanics that keeps me coming back to high end content. Do not flaunt your charmed life like we havent tried anything.
@@imacuttlefish6832 I thought I sent a reply but I guess it didn't send. UA-cam is the best. Anyway, I've been playing this game since HW and have been raiding and making groups since then. I am perfectly aware of networking and I'm just going to tell you it's an abysmal, soul sucking experience. The time investment is massive because people are flaky and full of drama, and that's if they even show up. God forbid you try to make a static because that amplifies every problem 100x. I don't care about the difficulty of the content, I dont even care about the competency of the people joining, I care that the process of recruiting feels like peeling the skin off my face. I've lived that experience, it's not a hypothetical. If that hasnt happened for you, you are simply lucky and you should acknowledge that instead of assuming other people are entitled or not trying hard enough.
@ You talk of assumptions but I could fire that right back at you. What makes you think I'm simply lucky? I have raid lead numerous statics over the course of nearly a decade and I can tell you that I failed a lot, and felt many of those same frustrations. That's what makes you a more capable raid lead. You mess up and learn to do your job better next time. If you are repeatedly trying to form a group and they keep falling apart, you do realise the common denominator there is you, right? Even this Chaotic experience for me wasn't a 100% smooth thing, I had to deal with some rubbish too. That's just how it is. There's always some drama or BS for you to sort out when you take on that mantle. Also, you have the gist of it. That is precisely what I think it is: anxiety around taking initiative, laziness and entitlement. I am glad we are on the same page.
@@imacuttlefish6832 We're not on the same page because you're still treating dissatisfaction as if it is always a failure on the part of the player. There's nothing in the world like that. You're painting with the biggest brush and you're pointing fingers based on your own experience. Hell, you're twisting my words right now. The thing is I'm not even saying I failed at organizing those groups: I did it, I succeeded. But I hated it and it was an awful experience, and that you can't reconcile this with your own experience just smacks me as borderline arrogant.
As someone whos currently quit the game for the foreseeable future, i think the issue is that the content is good... at the wrong time Its like if you broke both your legs, and someone came to your house with a new bike, like yeah sure the bike is really nice, and it'll fun to ride... but my fucking legs are broken, what good does this do me now? This content is worthless, because the problem with FFXIV is Job design, and gear design, and content scheduling, and progression, and everything else Adding a new piece of content thats cool, doesnt matter because A. I already quit B. Chances of me doing it when im back are SLIM, because why? I guess the mount, or if i want hideous armour They need to fix the larger issues at hand with just how the game is structured and designed, and so when this content doesnt "fix the problem", its "bad content"
I agree. They're scheduling is awful! I was hyped to do this, but it came out right near Christmas and New Years. I was way too busy. By the time I was ready to do it, everybody already seen the full fight. And most ppl don't want to sit down and explain to one person every single mechanic when 23 other ppl already know what to do. I seen the mounts and gear and it just wasn't worth the hassle.
Do want unique job design or good combat? Take jobs balanced well suited for all jobs there has to be some simplicity. If you don't like it go play wow. All there content is dumbed down but they have the "job design" you want.
@@TeaTimeRumblebut u have already quit the game, and the devs said they would rework in next expansion with slight changes until then. So no need to resub until then. The content is good and community and players are kinda bad. I cleared over fifty times in pf for my cloud mount. Its atill a good game and good content
Okay... could you elaborate on any of those issues you brought up? Also, I just don't quite see how it released at the wrong time, besides maybe the fact they slammed it on xmas which was rather annoying. I'm inclined to agree with you in a sense that I felt it has been a mistake since Anemos being delayed from 4.1 to 4.2, that the relics don't come out during .1 patches anymore.
1. U have the same right as ppl think 24 add no value. So who the fk are u 2. Pf was the best choice to finish this grind especially the first 2 weeks. Ppl that complain about pf on this fight either never do it on pf or just suck at the game without call out.
I think you missed the point entirely. Yes, people can have different stances on whether it adds value. It's another thing entirely for one group to then try to downplay and even nullify the other group's experience. If you do that, you are just a dickhead. It's the difference between saying "24 adds no value *for me*" vs "24 adds no value to this fight", the latter implies an objective truth, which is simply rubbish.
I did indeed! But can *you* figure out the meaning of cheese? www.inverse.com/gaming/how-street-fighter-invented-gamings-most-despised-strategy Or do you perhaps require a tl;dr of this article as well? Maybe a TikTok video so your brain can parse it?
Approaching 100 clears. Its good content. The mechanics are easy EX level, with body checks to stop people getting hard carried. If you can do your personal mechanics properly, you will get clears. The only people complaining about Chaotic, are people who after 500-1000 hours of playing the game still don't know what a stack marker or tower is. That is not a problem with the content, that is a problem with the player themselves. They are shit. Period. This content is not made for them. If you want to enjoy content, you have to put the effort in to actually learn to play the game outside of the MSQ.
Hahah that's putting it even more blunt than I have, but I get your sentiment. Players had in their heads this was going to be more casual than it was (despite the fact they explicitly said how difficult it was going to be). So then they got angry when it wasn't as easy as they thought. I think it's fine to be upset to some degree, but it's really disappointing to see people take that out on the developers and imply it was poorly designed, simply because they are upset.
i cleared the savages too, but i have given up on chaotic. 3 pulls, half the party leaves, wait for another 2 hours to refill, wipe 3 times, wait another hour to refill...
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of body checks here, it's not weather or not everyone executes a mechanic successfully, it's if there are enough people ALIVE to execute it. the first set of towers are not the issue it's people messing up third art of darkness right before it that causes wipes but if not, the snowball effect of raising people and getting them back in position because of the unorthodox arena design. Bramble, stack laser/spread AoE, looming chaos. All of these have potential to wipe if even one person is dead. Especially tanks, this boss has a lot more auto attacks than most fights and if one dies at any point everyone else starts getting picked off. Granted half of these issues come from people making dumb mistakes before vital parts of the fight as opposed to phase 1 where even if you die you can jump tight back in with little to no issue but phase 2 may require you to jump through several hoops many people don't know how to handle.
I fundamentally know the issue of not having enough people alive because we actually did it undermanned on our first day of prog, guaranteeing we never "met" the 24man condition for the bodycheck. It's still not an issue. Refer to what I said about the towers doing proportional damage. It's very hard for the inner group to make mistakes before the towers spawn (because there is none, literally), while the outer might, yes, but their towers will deal less damage in all likelihood. So unless you have an entire party wipe on one outer platform, you can still recover quite easily by simply mitigating it. How do I know? Because in my prog, one of the outer platforms were very inconsistent, they constantly had deaths and were missing towers. We often got like 5 vuln stacks, which is what I demonstrate on the video. If you can't mitigate it and/or you have SO many people dead it still blows you up, then the question would be if you deserve to carry on at that point. The mechanic is super lenient as is, it doesn't need to be more-so. I'm not even going to address the 2nd set of towers. Just tank LB3 it. Doesn't matter how many are dead. We constantly passed that with like 7 vuln stacks because of tank LB3 lol
I still don't see how people can even mess up third art of darkness, its a 5 year old mechanic. There is really nothing hard about the fight, its barely reaching EX difficulty mechanics wise.
@@imacuttlefish6832 Dude I wish. I cleared this piece of garbage I think on 27th of dec (thanks SE for releasing this on xmas eve, bloody geniouses) and on the day I cleared I spent 7 hours in so called "kill parties". Towers go completely untaken especially after swaps and people leave after 1 or 2 pulls constantly for some extra "wait to fill" time rather than doing the fight. And it's just an enormous waste of time. Tank lb3 sure, but I saw maybe one tank in one alliance do that in some groups and the others just blew up. Yeah, it's in the raidplan to tank lb3 it, but well... It's easy to say "just do X" but pf is filled with illeterate ameebas who do whatever or just don't do anything they're supposed to. Or just prog lie. Statics all the way for that reason. After my first clear I deemed even endwalker bodycheck raids are more fun. There were some people in my fc who were defending this fight, but their tomestone still shows wipes after wipes in farm parties. I think they stopped doing it by now, since some of them got tired of it. Personally I was already bis and none of the pieces are upgrades to my main jobs and I am not a mount collector, so fortunately an easy skip for this and the future chaotics.
@@sadmiqoxiv The challenge is absolutely not the mechanics, pretty easy fight in that regard. It's the 23 randoms and that just makes it more frustrating. It's not a fight against the boss or mechs, it's a fight against pf.
This was my first time being experienced to current content so take my opinion with a grain of salt. However, the difficulty does not feel natural to me. Just the speed of mechanics, the visual clutter, varying mechanics that rely on tells that are not easily discernible, on top of mechs you have to memorize mid fight because of spell storage feels like a lot to ask.
That's strange, cos I actually walked out of the experience with the opposite experience. I felt the mechanics were well-designed, with very distinct cues for them. Take the brambles, for instance. Before they go out, there's that red flavour text bar in the middle of your screen, which they use a lot in this fight and was introduced in Dawntrail. Then, before they are about to go off, they have this giant, red exclamation mark, which makes it stand out from the environment, accompanied with a SFX and of course, the cast bar. As a bit of an anecdote: one of the people in my group was a blind gamer, and he said he really enjoyed this fight. I think that to me is a sign of good visual clarity in the encounter.
the fight looks fun. its nowhere enough to get me to resub. hopefully the devs release something that compels me to return. great video cuttlefish. i played on a jp sever raiding and its not as hard as you make it out to be. the expectation is higher and they call out positions and numbers at the fight start. plus the dps is much much higher on average compared to NA/EU.
Aye, that's fair. And it's probably better to do the fight later on anyway, so there is no acute reason to do it right now. I appreciate the JP comment, I think I did clarify that I was referring to the NA/EU version of PF specifically at one point, but yes, it's good to keep that distinction in mind!
why make a discussion video only to be argumentative & condescending towards people in your comment section? good luck on the growth of your channel lol
Because I wish to defend the points I made in the video. I pretty much respond in the same way I have been responding for years. It's simply that this video happens to feature more negative comments than my usual content due to its controversial nature. So of course that will reflect on my own attitude when writing a comment, and I won't deny that. Could I be more wholesome? Absolutely. But this is a big reason I tend to focus on making positive content 99% of the time, with videos like this being a rare exception. I appreciate bringing that to my attention, I will try to bear that in mind for future comments in this video.
I mean, not everyone cares about subscribers. Plenty of people just want to make content their way.
15 днів тому+3
So, a raid for raiders who just got FRU to prog is happy with the raid, and people who wanted anything else aside scripted DDR dances - not. Midcore content is not something that hard to figure out, the battle design of this game itself is the problem to reach it, you either make puzzles and positionals too strict or too loose, the real asnwer is reactionary gameplay with personal responsibility that sadly is not achievable with such bad netcode.
If you think this raid is only proged and cleared by people with ultimate experience, you are delusional. In my very group, I had players who had never cleared an ultimate. Quite a few of us hadn't even cleared the current savage tier. The rest of your comment is pure rubbish. You know that a "DDR dance" is how the developers make their difficult content, they won't just suddenly shift their entire design philosophy after 10 years. Also, your personal definition of midcore is irrelevant. They specifically compared this fight to other pieces of content and you could've easily drawn conclusions from there.
15 днів тому
@@imacuttlefish6832 Before talking out of your ass using personal experience look at the number of clears and compare it to the participation of something like Bozhja. This is a content for a raiders, devs themselves called it something between extreme and savage, if you think otherwise, maybe you're delusional after all. Now pull out devs cock out of mouth and just use simple logic, is there anything between casual story dungeon and extreme boss? That's right, open field content, the only true midcore in this game aside from early deep dungeon back in HW. You're just clearly out of touch with majority of people if you think no one knows what's midcore is and devs gave us perfect content for that in the form of chaotic. Stop being overprotective over video game with rapidly declining population buddy
I disagree with this. Maybe I'm just elitist since I run savage and ultimate, but the fight isn't really that hard. The difficulty comes from the size of the raid. In my opinion, this is the definition of midcore content. Expansion zones are casual, normal content is casual, relic grinds are casual, and deep dungeons are more niche, so I don't know how to categorize them.
15 днів тому
@xapapetsugaming2311 I wouldn't call Lacus Litore a casual friendly duty for example, also any grind require effort, casual people don't want put any effort to get reward. I think the main problem is people from both sides just think about their own experience as a point and don't see points of people on other spectrum. It's really not that hard to see the picture from 3rd perspective if you just stop think about your own experience and how you personally think about it. If FF battle design were more versatile this topic wouldn't exist on scope that it does now. (people would still complain tho because no matter how you try you can't satisfy everyone)
The PF is not a "you" issue. It's a GAME issue. Putting in content that can't be accomplished through the means provided by the game without pulling your hair out is not a good gameplay experience.
Putting in a tiny amount of effort into joining or creating your own group is now considered "pulling your hair"? Are you taking the piss right now? Also, how can it be a game issue if PF in JP had a good experience. It is very clearly an issue specific to the PF on EU/NA. Yes, you are responsible. If the PF sucks and you know it sucks, look for players elsewhere. You call it a game issue... okay. What do you want the developers to do about it?
@@imacuttlefish6832 if PF sucks, and you know it sucks, the best option is to not do the content. I already went through PF hell to get BiS. Squares goal should be getting people into content they want to play as easily as possible. They literally created PF to do that, but it doesn’t work.
@@qwertythekid2688 okay i apologies on that "no problem". They are problems but it can be done. Its not easy but its not impossible. I cleared in 2 days pf. All my extreme and savage are always pf so i kinda understand how to bear it a little better
Same for me. Casual content is just boring for me now. I'll probably run all the new content when it releases, but all the fun I have is with more difficult content.
anything over 8 players is gonna be impossible to prog for us casual players in oce. you have more luck finding 7 players helping you out to prog instead of 23 players. I really enjoy the current savages and extremes.
I think the biggest mistake with this content is the fact that it's a 8-men raid scaled up to 24-men instead of being an 24-men alliance raid with a boost to difficulty. So, just like in Ex's/Savages/Ultimate you can easily wipe if a player messes up, differently from an alliance raid, where multiple people need to make mistakes to make a wipe. It's way too easy to point the finger and blame someone in this content, specially because you can't simply carry someone due to the body checks. For less disciplined communities like the western, these factors make the fight at least 10x harder than it should, and unless you have plenty of free time to spend organizing groups, it's not even worth getting into. This content will probably be dead after the release of the next savage tier.
I personally disagree. The punishment factor is there in place precisely to separate it from a regular 24man. Why would we need more of the same kind of content? That's just redundancy. Simply wait for the next 24man raid in 7.3. And there will likely be pseudo 24man stuff in the relic content, like how we had Delubrum Normal. I agree that this content doesn't mix well with western communities and their sense of entitlement, but I disagree with your sentiment that organising a group requires "plenty of free time". I was able to make my own group from scratch, while working, while also being busy studying at uni. It's not as big of a time investment as you think, which is why at the end of my video, I wanted to encourage more people to give it a shot. This content won't be dead for a long, looong time, of that I can assure you. I have personally been involved in select discord groups that organise runs for this fight and they certainly won't be letting it die for many, many years. The PF itself might die, but honestly, who cares? If anything... good riddance.
The whole video was valid up until about 6 minutes in when you discussed Party Finder. The issue is 2 things 1.) Party Finder should not BE this insufferable and only is due to inconsistent playstyle and bad players, purely thats it and 2.) the community needs to start taking raiding feedback rather than saying "you don't pay my subscription" shut up and go play something casual then, there are mechanics that need to be performed, playstyle is one thing, SIMPLY NOT DOING A MECHANIC RIGHT is YOU NOT DOING THE MECHANIC RIGHT.
I'm a little confused where it stops being valid, because you and I share the same opinion here. That it's an issue of the bad community, not a fight design problem.
I mean, he did say it's a community issue, not a dev issue. I think he agrees with you that it's an issue with the community. I would like to see more restrictions to pf like prog point restrictions, but that opens up a whole new mess and the devs would have to guess what pf prog points would need to be, so it's not really a viable solution. In the end, the community needs to do better and understand, prog point doesn't mean reaching a mechanic once, it means reaching a mechanic consistently.
@ a list of points out of 100 would work just fine. Anything is better than what we have. That’s not a community issue because community behavior is directly influenced by the PF mechanics. You lie because you can and because it’s optimal. They forced this behavior through their design.
@qwertythekid2688 I don't think it's necessarly forced. If every person only joined at their prog point, the issue wouldn't exist. It doesn't matter what fight you run. There will always be prog liars. Take ultimate, for example. There are plenty of paypal legends who join duty complete parties, and once you actually play with them, you realize they never learned the fight
God these are some of the worst takes I've ever heard. I was gonna write a big rant but it ended up being so long I'm almost certain nobody would read it. As someone who did know what to expect and then the result of the Chatoics release was exactly what I expected - You're not putting that at the feet of the community with your dismissive often strawman cyclical arguments. It's not gonna have the longevity of Field Operations full stop - and just because you managed to have a good experience doesn't overrule peoples bad experiences. For most people starting your own group... That's still Party Finder. People don't have a social apparatus for 23 other people they can trust to join in... At most 7 which be your static. You mention the body check thing as if the people complaining about it are talking out of frustration of not being able to solve it themselves, when they are talking about doing it in a PF someone dies then you're back sitting around for 30 minutes as the group breaks apart. This content makes sense for Japanese Data Centers only... and you had the audacity to tell people to be born Japanese. fuck off.
Can you give an example of me arguing using a strawman or a cyclical argument? Yes, it will have the longevity of those activities, the fact that the BA/DRS discords have already adopted this as part of their scheduled activities is proof enough of that. The PF itself might die but who cares about that? Re starting your own group, that's complete rubbish. It's very reasonable to get together 24 players. I don't even have a static and I already filled like half the group from my FC alone, and then I got the remaining (and then some) through simply asking people I have met along my raiding journey, most through PF in the first place, mind you. And just think about it logically. If there is such a massive sentiment that PF is the issue, you got all these people that rather not do PF-why don't those people start looking for each other, seeing as they are likeminded people? Well, my personal opinion is that there is a rather simple answer: nobody wants to take the initiative, and put in the effort into organizing, scheduling and recruiting. How could there be a lack of players, when people can easily form groups for even such obscure content like BA or BLU mage savage fights? Oh okay, you imply I argued in bad faith by strawmanning, yet you yourself take one of 3 of my PF solutions, dismiss 2 of them altogether, and imply my main thesis is the one I clearly made as a joke. Right.
@@imacuttlefish6832 Your strawman is assuming people had no idea how difficult the fight would be or how much a pain it be to run in PF it's the core of this tired thesis. Many people in the community knew "What to expect" well ahead of time. Those that did try faced the very flaws with the content anybody from a mile away could have seen. Nobody is ever expecting to just jump in and beat a difficult boss. So this concept of players didn't know what to expect or feel like they should just leap into PF and just get their rewards is imaginary and not the central focus of most peoples complaints. Ergo, Strawman. No it won't have the longevity because unlike BA/DRS you can't unsync those and do those anytime field operations foster a grouping mentality because the environment is dangerous and necessitates not going at it alone in order to enjoy it. In a few years time you can just unsync this Chaotic raid, get the two mounts, glam and hair style - two of which I'm certain you can just buy? It's 730 ilvl gear is hardly worth the hassle to get when it's gonna be made obsolete by next patch anyways. The fact players have to take the initiative, organize, schedule and accommodate content in a game which has fostered the 8 man cell for so long and close knit community groups. Unlike a Blue mage groups where you're doing it for a friend - people don't have a spectrum of friends so vast as to bring along players widely varying in skill level along for a 24 man raid as they would bringing their blu mage buddy along to get the spell they need in a quick sometimes unsynced encounter. Organizing a group as it were is the same as just joining a PF that's already up at that point. So your suggestion for people who don't want to PF... is to form their own group in PF??? And that's your logical conclusion... Ask your FC? Did it ever occur to you that most people segment their friend groups into categories based off how this content was catered. Most people don't raid with their FC, most people have statics. Most people who don't have statics have linkshells... none of which are made to accommodate pulling 23 people from the aether to go do a difficult boss in a somewhat reasonable manner. It works in Japan data centers because they for some reason do Savage in their duty finder, the Western audiences are not acclimated to tackling content in such a way because they never had to - but you want to blame the community when it's very clear if you have even the slightest pulse on the player base as a whole this was going to cause problems but your excuse for that is "What do you expect?" - THIS this is what was to be expected - and guess what that means, it means you got to accept that a lot of folk aren't going to be touching this content for that very same reason. BA is obscure but it is content that requires cooperation to fully engage with the content. Nobody is going to continually in good faith be doing an old chaotic raid for no reason other than for the fun. Specially with Occult Crescent and Cosmic exploration in the wings - real things that people can sink their teeth into that isn't a Extreme/Savage level commitment from the jump, that they can take at their own pace. Midcore content isn't a difficulty setting... it's an investment. There's no investment here unless doing a fight that be much more satisfying with a large group of friends is ultimately untenable for reasons I already covered. Lastly just because you managed to have a GOOD experience doesn't over rule many others BAD experiences which is where. I was keeping my comment brief because as I watched the video more and more - the more I realized you just don't get it. You're not trying to relate to other peoples experiences just project your own. That might give you a modicum of satisfaction but it doesn't transfer to others whom could have all manner of reasons non-explicitly listed here. There.
@@imacuttlefish6832 And one last thing. I wouldn't care so much about this video if it wasn't for the fact you lay the blame for people not having a good experience with the Chaotic raid at the feet of the Community that has vast multitudes of really reasoned arguments for not liking this content. I have a buddy of mine who did dhis through grinding PF it took him four days of non-stop playing to get a clear... imagining the toil he had to go through to achieve that agonizes me but he managed to have fun with it. Many more I know however see that experience and would choose to avoid it.
@@NotTheWheel I wouldn't consider it a strawman as when I'm discussing it, I deliberately bring up random commentaries by people which I am addressing. At best you could call it cherrypicking, although some comments do also have upvotes in them, so. But even that aside: if people knew what to expect, and didn't act entitled, I certainly wouldn't be here talking about it. I put this video off for weeks because I didn't consider it worth it from a risk analysis standpoint, and ended up doing it anyway. Why would I do that for an imaginary issue? But I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that, you clearly already made your judgement on my intentions. As for the rest: No, it won't die, because it's hard IL synced and those communities will keep it alive. But I don't see a point in arguing this if it's just us going yes it will, no it won't. Yes, that is precisely what I am suggesting people do regarding organizing their group. Take it or leave it. To your final point, aye, I do not relate to these issues, because my approach is altogether different. You got it. Do you have any other questions for me?
@ I'm glad you brought up your friend's experience because now we can get to the root of the issue that I have. I do sympathise with people that have to deal with all the numerous issues one has to face in PF, such as people lying about their prog and ragequitters. Where my sympathy ends, however, is when people take that anger out on the developers. So, would I feel bad for your friend? In all likelihood, yes. But would I continue to feel bad for him if he went on the internet to moan about the fight, and even potentially needlessly insult the developers over issues that amount to his personal problems? Absolutely not. Because he would have exhausted all my sympathy at that point.
The chaotic raid is fun to play. There's nothing wrong with the content. IT'S THE PEOPLE ALWAYS!!! Sometimes ppl don't pay attention to their timers. Perhaps ppl don't watch where they are going and cause a ko from the player, making the fight difficult. Calling ppl out of the problems and ppl don't take the criticism well because of how ppl said, thinking that ppl can read their minds on a certain tone for them to not flip out. Other than that, I want SE to create more chaotic content like this. To give more fresh ideas for 24-mans cause this game really needs it. Yes, you are right, this is a community issue and...I don't see that being solved anytime soon. I don't think the timing of the release will solve that core issue anyways. This can only be fixed from the individual alone and that person will have to see and fix that problem themselves.
I don't think the issue will be solved either. Because it's really an issue of our current western society, and particularly the poor parenting styles, such as helicopter parenting, that have been utilised the past few generations. Among other things. I also 100% agree on the timing sentiment. I have seen it crop up a few times in this comment section: people claiming that the fight simply released at the wrong time. I personally don't buy into that idea at all. They could've released this after the relic content, they could've released it in 7.3, 7.5, or freaking 9.0. You would've seen the exact same complaints.
Honestly, that's a valid point. I think people expected to get it done as quickly as an EX trial, which clearly didn't happen. So this whole thing about taking ages to clear in PF could simply be related to that.
People underestimated the fight. I did initially as well. But when i got pulled in by death a couple of times and got hit due to the speed of attacks and things happening, i adjusted my mind to savage mode and it was no problem. These people complaining are the ones that make pf look bad. I cleared over 50times in pf
@ I get what you mean, I do the same. Like when I run an expert roulette or something, I kind of turn my brain off and occasionally get hit by stuff and I don't really care. But in this fight, especially in P2, it quickly became evident that you got to at least respect it a little bit and give it its due attention. Not just a casual stroll through the park, so to speak.
But you see, PF IS bad, the way i cleared it was literally realize I was on Elemental instead of Mana, my home DC, and went back there to get the clear.
And regarding the vuln stack from towers, It's really hard to time the Tank LB from the second set of towers so it last long enough you don't die to Dark Dominion cast, it doesn't feel that was intended that you use your tank LB there, more like, try healer LB 3, because right after that there could be a body check. But how many of these comment are from first week anyway?
also 3:40 That was their intention but did they succeed? the only thing I learnt and found new from the 24 man raid was, 1: people have no idea that they can't be hurt after being rezzed for 5 seconds, and 2, don't rezz others form other alliance during rapid sequences particle beams . This point of yours is honestly really disingenuous, this fight really is just a scaled up 8 man extreme, not even savage, with some really bad design choice like random place for you too appear after you die, even though there clearly will be a body check later (that was clearly admitted to have been slightly over-tuned).
(to follow up the 3:40 part) Some even more bad design choice like dark dominion not letting you run outside, like, why, I get it, they want to make it hard, you are supposed to be punished for messing up, but then wouldn't that just blow up the *They are showing leniency to the fight* point? So what is it?
"24 players doesn't add any value." 8 players doesn't add any value for anyone but tanks and exclusively because of Provoke. Jobs have single target and AoE. There isn't an instance in which a tank won't use AoE on 3+ targets or their cooldowns when taking damage. Or a DPS won't do their rotation, or a healer won't spam rocks and heal when they need to. "24 players adds a social element." It really doesn't. It's very clear you do not understand what you're talking about. Final Fantasy XIV content is like riding the subway. The act of traveling from one place to the other doesn't change depending on who you ride the subway with. Whatever experience happens while in the subway, for example: Watching a Movie. Has nothing to do with the subway itself and its purpose of getting you from one place to the other. Just because you manually found a crowd of people to do the content with it doesn't mean you actually played social 'content' or a social 'game'. "Who are you to say that?" Is nowhere near close to enough of an argument let alone criticism of the content itself but of the players. This meme of 'If you personally feel'-- People can feel a certain way about something, but that doesn't make the facts suddenly go away. 8, or 24 players doesn't change how jobs perform or what they do or how combat works. It can't, the game is incompatible with the idea because of it's hyper homogenized Job design and the lack of RPG mechanics. Another thing about 'entitlement': The problem isn't that people want to have everything and can't get it despite paying the same fee everyone else does. The problem is that they have to wait almost a year for things to do and obtain. So obviously they are going to feel like they want the things in the game available now. You can't blame people for wanting things to do in a game that charges a sub to even log in. The more I watch this video I have become to understand you aren't even talking about the content itself but how much you hate the players, which is sincerely just about what I'd expect from the XIV community. You're responding to people's criticism, not critiquing the fight yourself.
To your last point. Congratulations on figuring out what both the title of the video and the intro to the video say. How is it not a social experience when 24 players come together from different backgrounds, helping to recruit players from their statics, FCs, linkshells etc., who then agree to set aside time to do this activity at an agreed-upon schedule, while also signing a *social contract* whereby everyone agrees to remain blind for the entirety of prog, including giving feedback on other articles such as Min IL and undermanning the fight? You can even see these social elements play out in the video itself: There are clips of us seeing mechanics for the first time, which invariably lead to us discussing what we had just seen as a group, sharing our pov's, and formulating different strategies to solve those mechanics. There is background footage where I have all 24 players in a discord stream, watching as I demonstrate mechanics through diagrams I made specifically for them. There is a clip of the nerd celebrations as we defeat the boss, and people collectively laughing over my dumbass mistake of full inventory. These are all social experiences only made possible by the Chaotic 24man existing, and it precisely being 24 instead of 8 enhancing those elements further. But you want me to keep going? Sure. What is funny is that this _very video_ in itself is also contributing to my group's social experience. You think I came to these conclusions on my own as a random shower thought? Nope. These were things that we discussed extensively as a group, in both voice and text chat, after we cleared the fight. We are also sharing some of the comments in our group. On rare occasion, talking about actually constructive criticism left by people-but most of of the stuff we share are ridiculous comments, where we use those people with their silly takes as our entertainment monkeys. Much like yours. So there's a certain irony in you claiming there is no social experience, yet you yourself are contributing to our group's social experience.
@@imacuttlefish6832 I can host a party and do all of those things you did over watching grass grow. You can make anything a 'social experience'. That doesn't add a social element to the mechanics of grass growing. Your 'social contract' isn't any more valuable than the people that cleared through PF. All of those players were taking time out of their lives to, in one way or the other clear the content. If you personally feel like having a high number of players adds a 'social element' to FFXIV's content you're completely free to to have that opinion. Just know that you are completely clueless. To explain a little further. Hunts aren't more of a social experience than anything else could be despite the massive number of players. The content isn't designed so that players can change the outcome of how it is played through their actions. The content doesn't care about how many players there are or what the job composition is. Regardless of the amount of organization you choose to do, the content is solved in the same exact way every time.
Finally, someone who agrees with me. In my opinion, COD is one of the best things that ever happened to FFXIV, and I ran it from day 1 in PF. I met people in PF that I got along with and added them as friends to get groups together to reclear the fight. This is the perfect content to get the community to work together. The mechanics are simple but not braindead. This is the midcore content we needed. Does the game have issues? Yes, all games have issues, and it is the issue COD, no. Is the issue lack of casual content? No, those people complaining about that are the same people who haven't grinded out previous relic weapons but will complain theres no relic grind, theyre the same people who never ran eureks or bosja but complain theres no expansion zone. They have plenty to do, but instead of doing older content, they complain.
I'm glad you enjoyed it! Yes. People do that all the time and it's really annoying. In Heavensward, everyone hated the relic. Eureka comes out "oh the HW was so good, Eureka so bad". Bozja comes out "wow Eureka was so much better, Bozja is so bad". Huge moaning that relic content sucks. SE says "okay, we won't add relic content, you simply get it while doing other stuff" then community goes "noo they removed all the relic content and the game sucks now". I guarantee you people will once again moan about the relic grind, and soon some smart guy will say "hey guys the Endwalker relic was so good, all you had to do was get tomes"
@imacuttlefish6832 The community loves to complain about everything. I've seen it year after year. There's also the discourse of ffxiv is dying, which happens after every expansion. I think people need to understand that the MMO genre is different from mobile games and shooters. They can't just release new content non-stop because it's fundamentally different. My answer to the complains is if you hate the game so much, why are you playing it, why are you paying your sub, and why are you watching videos about it, just quit playing if it's so bad.
@ It takes a well-adjusted, mature adult to recognize something isn't for them and back out, and then spend their energy elsewhere. An entitled manchild is incapable, for them the game is their entire world and their sense of self-worth revolves around it. It's true there is some level of hate after every expansion, I certainly remember the Stormblood days. But I feel even SB wasn't as bad as it is now. I really don't know where all these manchildren came from. But it's starting to get old.
@imacuttlefish6832 I personally take a break from the game a lot, I took a 3 year break after shadowbringers, then another 2 year break after endwalked. When you stop having fun, it's time to take a break, when you come back you'll see the game in a new light and the enjoyment will come back. Too many people make the game their entire identity and spend all their free time on it, and its just not healthy.
The thing is, if I cannot get a party for content inside the game, I will not be doing it.
Well that is what Party Finder, Linkshells, Free Companies, and Fellowships are for.
Yes, and that's completely fine. In that case it clearly does not appeal to you.
Also, I will add, there are still plenty of avenues for recruiting in game. Heck, about half my group came from my own FC. It just so happens that a lot of communities exist on Discord. By the way, this is no different from recruiting people for regular 8man savage/ultimate content, or even obscure stuff like BA/DRS/BLU content.
Nor is it nothing new. Did people complain they had to use Teamspeak back in the day "oh, you guys should facilitate a voice chat for us in the game!"? I really don't understand where the whole issue with seeking solutions outside the game comes from.
@@RaxorX try to form a party with that....people with day time job plays maybe 1-2 hours a day
@@imacuttlefish6832 You can do savage,ultimate and bluemage on party finder.
Baldesion arsenal etc are not doable on PF and thats why I can never do them.
@ Yeah I guess there are parties for BLU savage fights on occasion, though it's gonna be a lot harder to get all the fights done, especially if you want to do the ones not related to the Morbol mount (o12s and e12s).
Ultimates only become feasible to PF after the fight is a bit old. Even then, as long as the PFing discords like LPDU mandate cheating, I don't really care about it being pug-able if it comes at the cost of the game's integrity. This at least applies to EU, I don't know about other regions.
But that's a bit of a hot take and a topic for another time.
Something I've noticed about players is they are really, REALLY bad at giving feedback. They don't know the difference between "this is not good content" and "this is not good content for me"
This, this right here i think is the main issue. I think people just don't realize this is the problem they have
I saw a very similar thing take place in Old School Runescape. Whenever they tried polling, say, PvP updates, you had a bunch of morons deliberately vote against it-purely because they wanted the devs to solely focus on the content they wanted added. It's a rather annoying entitled mentality.
those are the same thing
@@car-keys lol
1. Skill issue is part of it, but eventually it comes down to personal accountability which includes having some patience with others. Soft skills such as patience are just as important when working with others. I find the FFXIV community (NA at least) to be very selfish when it comes to party content. They claim to be a very "progressive" community, but they never "pay it forward" like truly progressive people do. Once they get their burger king crown they quit giving out comms, and once they clear a fight they don't want to help others. I haven't made many friends in the 6 years I have played this game because I find most people are very selfish in FFXIV even compared to WoW. I'm still friends with people from WoW because we made connections by raiding together, failing together, and helping each other.
2. And yes, "gamers" complain about difficulty so a dev will make it more difficult (see Wildstar). Then gamers will complain the content is too hard. You see this in all MMO's because they don't understand the difference between an MMO and stand alone RPG design-wise.
6. I was with a group that did EX3 blind. Did it take us longer? Yes, but we only met about 2 hrs per week and skipped some weeks (holidays). Funny enough, we passed ice phase the exact same week as some acquaintances who were using Hector strats and met more frequently. it took us 2-3 weeks longer to clear than them, but if we were to compare the actual hours it took to clear I genuinely think our blind group would be in the lead. BUT in those weeks we didn't meet, we were still communicating and discussing the best way to handle certain mechanics based on the jobs present.
The point about difficulty is so true. Players will complain that content is too braindead and too easy, so developers ramp up the difficulty, then all the moaning starts. This has happened in FFXIV many times. Abyssos, for example. People kept complaining healing is too easy, so they ramped up the damage for that tier, and then they said the heal checks are bad. I remember Yoshida and the devs being legitimately confused. But that's often how it is. People don't know what they want.
I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the blind experience! That's awesome.
"Once they get the clear, they don't want to help others." I host learning parties regularly, and typically half the slots fill with players who say they are just there to help out. I also host mount farm parties, and there's always one or two who already got the mount but join just to help.
@ Aye, there are always those dedicated players willing to stick around and help others get their clear. Because that experience in itself is rewarding for some.
Sure, it helps to have added incentives to do so, as is the case with Chaotic, but what content like BA and DRS demonstrate is that you technically don't even need it. Just a nice lil bonus, really.
My only gripe was the release, since it felt wrong to release something like this on Christmas Eve. I just couldn't be asked to try this by the time I got home (not to mention that the armor honestly didn't interest me)
Aye, that's fair! It definitely miffed us as well, because we figured we'd simply do it on release, but nope, had to delay it by a few days. Which was extra annoying in our case because we also had to pray that everyone remained blind for all 3 of those days and not look anything up. It worked out in the end, but I could scarcely believe it when they pulled this for the second time already.
Normies and furries get bent, GET GOOD! IM TIRED OF DUMBING DOWN THE GAME!
The fight being a bad PF experiance is a pretty valid complaint. You can say "just be social join a static/discord/etc" But also not everyone can be in a static depending on their irl schedule. PF is just so much more flexible. Being able to go and get a party whenever you want and raid for any amount of time is just something that is quite valuable. Its not always practical to schedule time with 24 people. So unfortnettly this is just a form of content that for someone like me, my only option is to PF and have a poor experiance or not do it at all which sucks.
If it's a valid complaint, I invite you to answer this question: valid complaint for _whom_? The developers? If so, what do you expect them to do about it? That's a genuine question, by the way.
Because as I see it, when this content is ran as organised groups, or in JP, it works perfectly fine. It only falls apart in PF on NA/EU. What responsibility do the developers have to address that? And more to the point, _how_ would they even address it?
On the topic of being unable to make a group. I quite struggle to relate to this as someone who has raided in plenty of statics where most players have irregular and busy schedules, across all levels of content, including ultimate.
I know this isn't what you said, but this sentiment to me gives this implication that all raiders are NEETs with infinite time. But that's not true. Most players have obligations, they have rl get in the way, they may have irregular working schedules.
You make it work regardless. Sometimes sessions get rescheduled or canceled altogether. Sometimes you may need to get subs. That's just how it is. If 8 players come together and have a desire to play together, they'll arrange the time for it. It's the same for 24 players.
Did I have some hassles with scheduling with the Chaotic? Absolutely, and it's a headache you just have to deal with as the organiser. Not to mention that I am quite busy with real life myself, with plenty of obligations.
But we got 24 players together on all 3 our raid days, and we ended up doing a reclear session for those who missed the clear (because we had more than 24 players in the group precisely because of scheduling).
There are of course very rare cases of individuals who have such insanely chaotic schedules that they simply cannot do this. But as I point out in the video, these are extremely rare from my experience. And therefore shouldn't even be considered in the argument, seeing as they are outliers.
PF is flexible, aye, but it comes at a price. If you willingly pay that price, that's fine. My video doesn't address players who simply use PF. My video addresses players who used PF *and* then went on to criticise the developers, expecting them to fix their own problems, that they themselves are responsible for addressing.
I really enjoyed the fight, cleared it in pf and had a good time. I expected the usual pf shenanigans with rage quitting and prog lying and of course that would be excacerbated since its 24 players and not 8 man, so since I had those expectations I was not surprised at all. Good fight in my opinion. In general I think they're moving in the right direction with fight design in Dawntrail.
Nice! Glad to hear it worked out for you. Having realistic expectations definitely helps.
I love that chaotic is so accessible unlike BA and DRS. I think the people that complain about pf to no end are the same people who dont have any patience and expect to just clear content without any hiccups whatsoever.
Pf shenanigans are part of the experience, and it's honestly so funny to me hearing people early on saying, "dont do this fight in pf or pf can't handle this."
I farmed everything i wanted from chaotic and all of it in pf.
I actually think BA/DRS having those gatekeepy elements was a positive. Because it helped better filter out the entitled players.
In retrospect, I kind of wished Chaotic had some gatekeeping element, such as maybe requiring a clear of m1s to unlock it.
@@imacuttlefish6832 maybe, but I think it's a good thing so many people who have never done anything harder than an extreme gave it a try.
With Chaotic I just really like the fact you can just go in and do it. There's room for improvement of course, but I hope they continue to make more of them. I also hope like you said, they ignore the feedback on people complaining about the difficulty. Chaotic is some of the best fun I've had in a while.
@@davidbernardino8109 I don't think it's a concern anymore either way. Because now players know exactly what they are getting with Chaotic (I'd argue they ought to have known even before it came out but that's besides the point), so I don't think those gatekeeping elements are important for future releases.
Aye, I agree, it was a nice change of pace and I too look forward to the next one for sure
Think part of the issue is Square Enix is a small indie company with only 5 people working on this game being paid minimum wage. Having 2 of those people working on Chaotic Raids instead of other content means we missed out on potentially better content.
And while this is an exaggeration the whole 'just because x content got made doesn't mean they don't use resources on other content' is clearly not true when it comes to FFXIV. Square is not reinvesting in this game and making it impossible for them to make enough content to meet player needs.
square enix is having financial issues currently they kinda suck i guess at managing their funds so they're rolling back on alot after investing in so much of their projects
I think this could be a video of its own. The whole "they are an indie company" and that "they dont invest anything back into FFXIV" has some merit to it, but I think people also way oversimplify the matter. I'd like to dedicate an entire video to this topic at some point, or at the very least a portion of a video.
I understand redirecting resources to try new things, I just don't understand people's complaints when it comes to DT content since it's going to be the most stacked expansion for content since stormblood. People need to relax and let the devs work while giving constructive criticism and wait for the content they want to run. You can never make the whole community happy, I like difficult content, some people don't, I find dungeons braindead and hate running them, but some people love running dungeons. You can't make all people happy all the time.
i think releasing fru and then chaotic during american thanksgiving then christmas was just super unfortunate timing for me, because i work a full-time job and a part-time job, both of which get even busier during the holidays.
pf was such a toss-up with 24 people that i got like 3 clears and then decided i didn't feel like wasting more of my time struggling to clear content that i was executing perfectly lol. it was a simple adult decision to acknowledge that it's not something i'm willing to pursue right now: very much the "well, this isn't for me anymore" approach
i didn't love coming to the realization that some of this content isn't gonna be for me moving forward, but i never really interpreted this as something wrong with the content itself. not everything is going to be realistically doable for everyone. kinda reminds me of when people were mad about the axolotl mount being a savage drop lol
Aye, releasing the raid on xmas is definitely a valid complaint, especially given it's not even the first time.
I can respect your approach. It's fine to say you don't like the content and simply decide I'm not doing it any more. I did the same regarding ultimates, which is why I never came back for FRU. Just wasn't the content for me at the time. I simply wish people didn't start needlessly bashing the developers over their personal frustrations and personal problems.
I'm in JP despite not speaking Japanese. PF was perfectly fine here to prog and farm. There's only one strat with no variation here. I don't even need to speak JP. I just type my role in chat (and use auto tl plugin to see what they're talking about) and hit boss. Most pfs have 3 wipes = disband rule so just join another one after those 3 wipes. Anyway fun content got my mount and made 30 mil from selling. Looking forward to the next one even if they'll likely make it easier.
Thanks for sharing the JP PF point of view. This also confirms something I've heard: that this fight is a rare exception of it being farmed in PF rather than in RF. But it does make sense, right. There are simply so many possible roles that it wouldn't be as feasible thro the RF.
I like having a distinct rule in regards to the amount of wipes allowed in a farm party. When everyone has the same expectation, it gets around the issue NA/EU PF has where after a wipe or two, a couple of guys ragequit, but maybe some wanna stay, and now you have to wait to fill up again. Causes a lot more frustration, because there's no social agreement around how many wipes are acceptable.
I think the JP perspective is important to take into account, because if the content works completely fine on there, as well as when it's ran by organised groups, we can better acknowledge that the issue doesn't lie within the content itself, but rather the PF on NA/EU specifically.
After which the question becomes: are the developers responsible for addressing that, or should it fall within the community and indeed, individual players themselves, to fix their problem? I fall into the latter camp but obviously it's a pretty hot take, as this video demonstrates.
It's amazing content, and made me realize why i raid in the first place. To meet new people and experience new challenges together. To have fun with others and help each other do things we cannot do alone.
Truth be told, I usually just raid older content blind and min ilvl with a group that slowly accumulated over time. Doing actual endgame raiding always felt so miserable to me once you've cleared. No one talks about anything beyond the initial strat setup, they just wanna get their book and be done for the week. That's not why i raid. I don't need the gear if i don't enjoy the fights, and M1S and M2S at least did not make me want to continue any further, so i just didn't do endgame raiding past the initial clears.
AND NOW the Chaotic comes and painfully reminds me what i want the gear for. Reminds me that raiding is actually fun since your party members start talking after a wipe or between lockouts and listings, and I've been enjoying the fight so much I've now cleared it on almost every single role on both Codcar and Aurelia strats all in pf (only missing position is ranged on both strats).
Hahah you discovered the joys of blind prog, I am glad to hear it!
A friend of mine once described it best: going back to regular raiding after blind prog is like taking a bite out of an apple right after you ate chocolate. You simply cannot taste the sweetness anymore.
I am adressing this issue of community by not playing this raid style ( cleared savage this in tier in pf btw )
CAR > FRU and I will not hear otherwise. It's so goddamn clean.
Haha I haven't done FRU but I certainly enjoyed it more than TOP
23:03 - 25:19 So I agree with you there are egotistical people that play the game (3 Wipes equals disband) but yes other players can and do hold back others, throw me in valigarmanda ex and I promise you I wont die for 20 or 30 pulls but even in farm parties the same person will die every pull. Even in my last static I was getting a little frustrated because I would be perfect for the entire raid day but see no prog because others in the group couldn't figure out what I could 2 weeks ago. Now doing prog with 7 random people every time you want to do that fight makes it worse and now even worse with 23 others. Also yes some clear for friends are traps but to argue against that even their is a whole discord revolved around clear for ones called The Ulti Project and it works consistently getting people ultimate clears because PF or even their own statics are holding them back. In conclusion it is totally fair and reasonable to blame other players for holding you back because it does happen, you just need to make sure you're one of those really consistent players first.
You are right, I did simplify the topic for the sake of the video. While editing, I tried to add a little elaboration in text form that addresses your statement, which is that the two aren't mutually exclusive.
On one hand, you have players lying about prog which can genuinely hold someone back. But there are also plenty of people who think way too highly of themselves.
There is the issue of people getting carried as well, yes. This happens more often in Extremes and sometimes early savage floors, too. The player getting carried thinks they now have the golden ticket to enter farm parties, while in reality they are not ready to farm at all. You happen to get enough of such players in one group, and you are in trouble.
Y'kno, I used to say this kind of stuff a lot as well back in like 2017. "Oh man, I just can't clear o4s, they are all trapping on black hole, I've been playing flawlessly for 2 weeks, and just need to wait to get 7 other players who don't mess up!"
I eventually realized such statements are redundant. It's moaning for the sake of moaning, and yes, I believe there is an element of ego stroking in such sentiments as well.
The reality is, you only need to worry about making sure that you yourself have done everything in your power to be a reliable participant in the raid. You do that, and eventually you are bound to get your clear.
I would also invite people who say this to consider that in all of these "trash groups" that are failing, the common denominator there is you. And that you probably aren't the only one who thinks that way. Funny when all 8 players think that the 7 other players are the issue, right?
If you have this issue in a static, as you described, then you are especially to blame. Because that is an entirely controlled environment. Good groups don't have this issue because, through trial and error, they managed to find likeminded players who also happen to be roughly on the same skill level.
Also, just a personal thing, but if someone in my group expressed this kind of a sentiment, I would kick them without hesitation. Which I have actually done in the past. These kinds of players are more of a problem than the "people holding them back" ever are.
There are players who pick up mechanics very fast, but they are extremely rare. In fact, in all my time of raiding, I only met a single person I would consider truly exceptional in that sense. One. Out of thousands of people I have come across. You think about those numbers and think to yourself, are you the exceptional guy, or is it more likely you are nothing special?
Which is why, whenever I see statements like "the other players are holding me back", I immediately have a lot of skepticism towards such statements. First of all, it's not even true in all likelihood. But even if it is, why would a person be saying this, and what does it reveal about them?
@@imacuttlefish6832 of course there's a bit of ego in it (everyone has an ego) but there's different levels of ego for example I would never put three wipes equals disband in a pf description. also yes I can only focus on myself but that still doesn't change my prog point when I'm super consistent and they aren't. these trash group don't really tend to be groups either just 1-3 players that keep dying at the same spots. How is it my fault that in a static the same people keep dying also or rely on callouts to much? there's no way I can scout them out before playing with unless I go on fflogs but that just shows dps and not mechanic consistency. I agree people that let their ego get in the way should get kicked out of the group but that's not what I did, I was just silently frustrated (still like them all and may be doing next tier and uwu with them). With the speed at which you pick up mechanics I don't expect them to learn them super fast (still want it to be at a decent speed) as I know eventually there will be a mechanic that takes me a while to learn (P9S Soccer Ball) but once you learn it please be consistent at it and if you're in pf then you should be consistent up to the part that is being progged. So again other players do hold people back and again look back at my example for The Ulti Project. I feel like I should mention also this is from the perspective of an 8 man raider as I only tried Chaotic day 1 and after 6 hours couldn't get to tiles because every groups I went in couldn't understand the hands and stack mechanic. I'm all for taking responsibility I do it all the take and even when I used to play rocket league I never blamed my teammate for the loss but it mmos you can 100% blame others if you are consistent 9/10 times
I will always be of the opinion that the vast majority of content should be done in PF and to varying amounts of comfortability. This fight just isnt it though. I've cleared nearly 50 times and its pretty miserable overall. I also joined a static by accident meaning to just help a friend and the thing fell apart after one session where even my raiding friends didnt want to do it anymore. Its fine to have some rare content that just isnt feasible in PF like your ulti's or BA or DRS but the more content you tell people to look outside the game to do the less people will be interested. I've joined probably a dozen of said discords ranging from hunts to BA/DRS to blue mage and more and its annoying as hell to be told yet again to join another discord to do another piece of content. Said discords for me at least havent even provided that sense of community either, its just join and do content then bounce. Im looking forward to the next chaotic but Im seriously hoping for a chiller more fun PF experience similar to extremes. That and them making this be able to unsync in 8.0. At least in extreme PF I have fun more than I dont
Small edit while its on my mind: I think this level of difficulty and misery would be fine if they content was like.... one and done style similar to ultis or even 8-10 clears like savages. But the rewards require you to spam it to get the untradeable mount. The marketboard comments you made I 100% agree with but if you want the stupid mount you have to treat this as an extreme level farm but with much worse clear rates. Even BA and DRS you only had to clear once for the mount and farm for either useless achieves or maybe rare drops that can be bought off MB. So I do hope they either lower the frustration or change the reward structure
I agree that there should be a healthy mix of content that requires more group coordination and one that is more feasible to do with a lower commitment. I think if the relic content in DT pans out similar to how it was in Bozja, we should get exactly that.
This patch was definitely geared more towards the former, since it featured both the ultimate and the Chaotic. So I understand this sentiment, but I reckon in the scope of the entire expansion's lifespan it won't be as big of an issue.
I'm not very invested in the rewards so take my opinion with a pinch of salt. But yes, I did find the mount requiring roughly the same amount of clears as an EX trial to be a strange choice. The minion is even more strange, as it cannot be purchased with the currency at all.
I do understand where the devs are coming from, though. The most common complaint surrounding Criterion was that there weren't enough rewards, no incentive to keep doing it. So with Chaotic they wanted to make sure there was plenty reason to. You could say it was an overcorrection, perhaps, but I understand it nonetheless.
Something I liked about BA/DRS is, as you said, it was simply one clear to get the most desirable reward (the mount), but you could keep farming them, which would improve your performance in that specific content itself. I actually liked that.
@@imacuttlefish6832 The rewards are a large part as to why I think chaotic has been so rough to be honest. The hair style in particular got people eyes which is usually a casual style reward for players. So you got a mix of players who both wanted a hard fight and players who just wanted the rewards. Yeah its marketboardable but thats not gonna stop people. That and chaotic had no lockouts period to stop players and gear is unlocked even to 730 for casuals when it dropped. To me Id say SE should lock it behind extremes or something else from the patch before like ultimates in the future. Unless they change the next fight or rewards structure which Id prefer instead.
Feedback from a person doing this fight in a static vs a player doing this purely in PF, on first 3 days when there are 5 different strats, will be very different. I live in EU but my char is on NA so there is a lot of difficulty to find static due time difference. I therefore always PF. This is absolutely PF-able. I cleared very early and it felt like the worst thing I done in my life >.> But then i made some macros to help call out lasers for people and eventually run it over 50 times in PF to get shoes and the cloud mount. The fight by itself is not really difficult.
But its not what I was expecting from a 24 man ally raid, comparing it to BA and DRS is absolute invalid. Its nothing like those contents. Its a 24 man savage raid. In most cases once you cleared savage, there is very minimal discussion besides shittalking between people. Since the expectation is that you should know the plan, know the fight and just go in, no talk, fight, go out. To me thats not an mmo experience.
I will wait out the new exploration zone so that we can get a new BA/ DRS like thing going on because that is what feels most like an mmo experience in this game for me. It gives a little bit of time between bosses, and encourages people to talk about the fight, during almost each fight, regardless if cleared before or not. I dont want to sit in a discord and say nothing on reclears for a raid that has majority of the people being toxic. And thus I am not doing chatoic now that I got all I wanted from it. Its okay to dislike a content. And its okaz to say it out loud that you dislike the content. But it doesnt mean that everyone will dislike it. But my biggest complaint with this was not that its a bad fight, its that its unfair towards casuals to have a new high end content squished in after savage and ultimate, and so now they will be waiting for almost 6-8 months to get to actually do something more than 2 hour of story play and a beast tribe... My complaint is that I dont get why they cannot push out ultimates and casual content like explor zones at the same time... So everyone gets to do something.
I think the only two times I compare this fight to BA/DRS is in regards to the fact that it will be kept alive by dedicated discord groups, and the punishment factor, although in hindsight, that comparison didn't really add much to the convo and could've easily been axed.
It's okay to say you dislike content. What I don't find okay, personally, is when people take their frustrations out on the developers, especially when most of people's issues are really just their personal problems, ones that only they are responsible for solving.
tl;dr "I have a lot of friends and reliable acquaintances of high skill level so this is okay." Cool take. I have an irregular schedule, the only way I can do things is in very short PF bursts and just organizing the party is the worst part. There is nothing wrong with the fight, there is everything wrong with the effort it takes to put together a group. I'm seriously considering just eating the JP lag
Hmm, I can see how you might think that way, but many of the players in my group hadn't cleared ultimates, and quite a few of us hadn't even cleared the current savage tier.
It might seem daunting to group together 24 players, but consider this: I don't even have a static. I simply recruited a few players from my FC, and a handful of friends, and the rest were players recruited by the contacts of those I had gotten in (their own friends/FC/static members)..
You really don't need to know that many people. And funnily enough, all the friends I personally recruited, I originally met through PF in the first place and befriended them. I think there's some anxiety around using the PF as a networking tool, and it's a bit of a shame.
While on this topic, I also feel the time investment for making your own group is way exaggerated in people's heads. Case in point, I work while studying at uni.
I can appreciate it if your schedule truly is that chaotic that you absolutely cannot make it work.
However, I can speak from personal experience, as I've been in statics in the past that had multiple people on irregular schedules, and they were able to make time on a casual schedule (which is all you need for content of this difficulty). Heck, I've cleared an ultimate in a group with people having irregular schedules.
You'd be surprised at how accommodating people can be regarding scheduling issues. Most understand that life gets in the way and are patient, at least from my experience.
@@imacuttlefish6832 I have been playing this game since heavensward and have been putting together groups the entire time. I am aware of what networking is, and statics have been the most hellish and regrettable things I have dealt with in the game. It has been a despicable experience the whole way through and it is only my personal enjoyment of the mechanics that keeps me coming back to high end content. Do not flaunt your charmed life like we havent tried anything.
@@imacuttlefish6832 I thought I sent a reply but I guess it didn't send. UA-cam is the best. Anyway, I've been playing this game since HW and have been raiding and making groups since then. I am perfectly aware of networking and I'm just going to tell you it's an abysmal, soul sucking experience. The time investment is massive because people are flaky and full of drama, and that's if they even show up. God forbid you try to make a static because that amplifies every problem 100x. I don't care about the difficulty of the content, I dont even care about the competency of the people joining, I care that the process of recruiting feels like peeling the skin off my face. I've lived that experience, it's not a hypothetical. If that hasnt happened for you, you are simply lucky and you should acknowledge that instead of assuming other people are entitled or not trying hard enough.
@ You talk of assumptions but I could fire that right back at you. What makes you think I'm simply lucky? I have raid lead numerous statics over the course of nearly a decade and I can tell you that I failed a lot, and felt many of those same frustrations.
That's what makes you a more capable raid lead. You mess up and learn to do your job better next time. If you are repeatedly trying to form a group and they keep falling apart, you do realise the common denominator there is you, right?
Even this Chaotic experience for me wasn't a 100% smooth thing, I had to deal with some rubbish too. That's just how it is. There's always some drama or BS for you to sort out when you take on that mantle.
Also, you have the gist of it. That is precisely what I think it is: anxiety around taking initiative, laziness and entitlement. I am glad we are on the same page.
@@imacuttlefish6832 We're not on the same page because you're still treating dissatisfaction as if it is always a failure on the part of the player. There's nothing in the world like that. You're painting with the biggest brush and you're pointing fingers based on your own experience. Hell, you're twisting my words right now. The thing is I'm not even saying I failed at organizing those groups: I did it, I succeeded. But I hated it and it was an awful experience, and that you can't reconcile this with your own experience just smacks me as borderline arrogant.
As someone whos currently quit the game for the foreseeable future, i think the issue is that the content is good... at the wrong time
Its like if you broke both your legs, and someone came to your house with a new bike, like yeah sure the bike is really nice, and it'll fun to ride... but my fucking legs are broken, what good does this do me now?
This content is worthless, because the problem with FFXIV is Job design, and gear design, and content scheduling, and progression, and everything else
Adding a new piece of content thats cool, doesnt matter because
A. I already quit
B. Chances of me doing it when im back are SLIM, because why? I guess the mount, or if i want hideous armour
They need to fix the larger issues at hand with just how the game is structured and designed, and so when this content doesnt "fix the problem", its "bad content"
I agree. They're scheduling is awful! I was hyped to do this, but it came out right near Christmas and New Years. I was way too busy. By the time I was ready to do it, everybody already seen the full fight. And most ppl don't want to sit down and explain to one person every single mechanic when 23 other ppl already know what to do. I seen the mounts and gear and it just wasn't worth the hassle.
Do want unique job design or good combat? Take jobs balanced well suited for all jobs there has to be some simplicity. If you don't like it go play wow. All there content is dumbed down but they have the "job design" you want.
@lifeiaskedfor If your definition of good combat is 12 body checks across a 9min fight, I'll take job design
@@TeaTimeRumblebut u have already quit the game, and the devs said they would rework in next expansion with slight changes until then. So no need to resub until then. The content is good and community and players are kinda bad. I cleared over fifty times in pf for my cloud mount. Its atill a good game and good content
Okay... could you elaborate on any of those issues you brought up? Also, I just don't quite see how it released at the wrong time, besides maybe the fact they slammed it on xmas which was rather annoying.
I'm inclined to agree with you in a sense that I felt it has been a mistake since Anemos being delayed from 4.1 to 4.2, that the relics don't come out during .1 patches anymore.
1. U have the same right as ppl think 24 add no value. So who the fk are u
2. Pf was the best choice to finish this grind especially the first 2 weeks. Ppl that complain about pf on this fight either never do it on pf or just suck at the game without call out.
I think you missed the point entirely. Yes, people can have different stances on whether it adds value. It's another thing entirely for one group to then try to downplay and even nullify the other group's experience. If you do that, you are just a dickhead.
It's the difference between saying "24 adds no value *for me*" vs "24 adds no value to this fight", the latter implies an objective truth, which is simply rubbish.
TL;DR: you can cheese this too with voice comms. Wow,. No shit, Sherlock. Did you figure it out yourself?
I did indeed!
But can *you* figure out the meaning of cheese?
www.inverse.com/gaming/how-street-fighter-invented-gamings-most-despised-strategy
Or do you perhaps require a tl;dr of this article as well? Maybe a TikTok video so your brain can parse it?
Approaching 100 clears.
Its good content.
The mechanics are easy EX level, with body checks to stop people getting hard carried.
If you can do your personal mechanics properly, you will get clears.
The only people complaining about Chaotic, are people who after 500-1000 hours of playing the game still don't know what a stack marker or tower is. That is not a problem with the content, that is a problem with the player themselves. They are shit. Period. This content is not made for them.
If you want to enjoy content, you have to put the effort in to actually learn to play the game outside of the MSQ.
Hahah that's putting it even more blunt than I have, but I get your sentiment. Players had in their heads this was going to be more casual than it was (despite the fact they explicitly said how difficult it was going to be). So then they got angry when it wasn't as easy as they thought.
I think it's fine to be upset to some degree, but it's really disappointing to see people take that out on the developers and imply it was poorly designed, simply because they are upset.
Honestly pf has been nothing but a blessing for me. Cleared m1s - m3s and i've met cool af ppl who took time to explain stuff to me. Op just jelly lol
i cleared the savages too, but i have given up on chaotic. 3 pulls, half the party leaves, wait for another 2 hours to refill, wipe 3 times, wait another hour to refill...
i disagree, i have had good parties and bad parties, with pf it can be complete RNG.
disclaimer: i havent clear it.
I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of body checks here, it's not weather or not everyone executes a mechanic successfully, it's if there are enough people ALIVE to execute it. the first set of towers are not the issue it's people messing up third art of darkness right before it that causes wipes but if not, the snowball effect of raising people and getting them back in position because of the unorthodox arena design. Bramble, stack laser/spread AoE, looming chaos. All of these have potential to wipe if even one person is dead. Especially tanks, this boss has a lot more auto attacks than most fights and if one dies at any point everyone else starts getting picked off. Granted half of these issues come from people making dumb mistakes before vital parts of the fight as opposed to phase 1 where even if you die you can jump tight back in with little to no issue but phase 2 may require you to jump through several hoops many people don't know how to handle.
I fundamentally know the issue of not having enough people alive because we actually did it undermanned on our first day of prog, guaranteeing we never "met" the 24man condition for the bodycheck. It's still not an issue.
Refer to what I said about the towers doing proportional damage. It's very hard for the inner group to make mistakes before the towers spawn (because there is none, literally), while the outer might, yes, but their towers will deal less damage in all likelihood. So unless you have an entire party wipe on one outer platform, you can still recover quite easily by simply mitigating it.
How do I know? Because in my prog, one of the outer platforms were very inconsistent, they constantly had deaths and were missing towers. We often got like 5 vuln stacks, which is what I demonstrate on the video.
If you can't mitigate it and/or you have SO many people dead it still blows you up, then the question would be if you deserve to carry on at that point. The mechanic is super lenient as is, it doesn't need to be more-so.
I'm not even going to address the 2nd set of towers. Just tank LB3 it. Doesn't matter how many are dead. We constantly passed that with like 7 vuln stacks because of tank LB3 lol
I still don't see how people can even mess up third art of darkness, its a 5 year old mechanic.
There is really nothing hard about the fight, its barely reaching EX difficulty mechanics wise.
@@imacuttlefish6832 Dude I wish. I cleared this piece of garbage I think on 27th of dec (thanks SE for releasing this on xmas eve, bloody geniouses) and on the day I cleared I spent 7 hours in so called "kill parties". Towers go completely untaken especially after swaps and people leave after 1 or 2 pulls constantly for some extra "wait to fill" time rather than doing the fight. And it's just an enormous waste of time. Tank lb3 sure, but I saw maybe one tank in one alliance do that in some groups and the others just blew up. Yeah, it's in the raidplan to tank lb3 it, but well... It's easy to say "just do X" but pf is filled with illeterate ameebas who do whatever or just don't do anything they're supposed to. Or just prog lie. Statics all the way for that reason.
After my first clear I deemed even endwalker bodycheck raids are more fun. There were some people in my fc who were defending this fight, but their tomestone still shows wipes after wipes in farm parties. I think they stopped doing it by now, since some of them got tired of it. Personally I was already bis and none of the pieces are upgrades to my main jobs and I am not a mount collector, so fortunately an easy skip for this and the future chaotics.
@@sadmiqoxiv The challenge is absolutely not the mechanics, pretty easy fight in that regard. It's the 23 randoms and that just makes it more frustrating. It's not a fight against the boss or mechs, it's a fight against pf.
This was my first time being experienced to current content so take my opinion with a grain of salt. However, the difficulty does not feel natural to me. Just the speed of mechanics, the visual clutter, varying mechanics that rely on tells that are not easily discernible, on top of mechs you have to memorize mid fight because of spell storage feels like a lot to ask.
That's strange, cos I actually walked out of the experience with the opposite experience. I felt the mechanics were well-designed, with very distinct cues for them. Take the brambles, for instance. Before they go out, there's that red flavour text bar in the middle of your screen, which they use a lot in this fight and was introduced in Dawntrail. Then, before they are about to go off, they have this giant, red exclamation mark, which makes it stand out from the environment, accompanied with a SFX and of course, the cast bar.
As a bit of an anecdote: one of the people in my group was a blind gamer, and he said he really enjoyed this fight. I think that to me is a sign of good visual clarity in the encounter.
the fight looks fun. its nowhere enough to get me to resub. hopefully the devs release something that compels me to return. great video cuttlefish. i played on a jp sever raiding and its not as hard as you make it out to be. the expectation is higher and they call out positions and numbers at the fight start. plus the dps is much much higher on average compared to NA/EU.
Aye, that's fair. And it's probably better to do the fight later on anyway, so there is no acute reason to do it right now.
I appreciate the JP comment, I think I did clarify that I was referring to the NA/EU version of PF specifically at one point, but yes, it's good to keep that distinction in mind!
why make a discussion video only to be argumentative & condescending towards people in your comment section?
good luck on the growth of your channel lol
Because I wish to defend the points I made in the video.
I pretty much respond in the same way I have been responding for years. It's simply that this video happens to feature more negative comments than my usual content due to its controversial nature. So of course that will reflect on my own attitude when writing a comment, and I won't deny that.
Could I be more wholesome? Absolutely. But this is a big reason I tend to focus on making positive content 99% of the time, with videos like this being a rare exception.
I appreciate bringing that to my attention, I will try to bear that in mind for future comments in this video.
I mean, not everyone cares about subscribers. Plenty of people just want to make content their way.
So, a raid for raiders who just got FRU to prog is happy with the raid, and people who wanted anything else aside scripted DDR dances - not. Midcore content is not something that hard to figure out, the battle design of this game itself is the problem to reach it, you either make puzzles and positionals too strict or too loose, the real asnwer is reactionary gameplay with personal responsibility that sadly is not achievable with such bad netcode.
Yep. You can't be good and react and win. You have to memorize the shit.
If you think this raid is only proged and cleared by people with ultimate experience, you are delusional. In my very group, I had players who had never cleared an ultimate. Quite a few of us hadn't even cleared the current savage tier.
The rest of your comment is pure rubbish. You know that a "DDR dance" is how the developers make their difficult content, they won't just suddenly shift their entire design philosophy after 10 years.
Also, your personal definition of midcore is irrelevant. They specifically compared this fight to other pieces of content and you could've easily drawn conclusions from there.
@@imacuttlefish6832 Before talking out of your ass using personal experience look at the number of clears and compare it to the participation of something like Bozhja. This is a content for a raiders, devs themselves called it something between extreme and savage, if you think otherwise, maybe you're delusional after all.
Now pull out devs cock out of mouth and just use simple logic, is there anything between casual story dungeon and extreme boss? That's right, open field content, the only true midcore in this game aside from early deep dungeon back in HW.
You're just clearly out of touch with majority of people if you think no one knows what's midcore is and devs gave us perfect content for that in the form of chaotic.
Stop being overprotective over video game with rapidly declining population buddy
I disagree with this. Maybe I'm just elitist since I run savage and ultimate, but the fight isn't really that hard. The difficulty comes from the size of the raid. In my opinion, this is the definition of midcore content. Expansion zones are casual, normal content is casual, relic grinds are casual, and deep dungeons are more niche, so I don't know how to categorize them.
@xapapetsugaming2311 I wouldn't call Lacus Litore a casual friendly duty for example, also any grind require effort, casual people don't want put any effort to get reward. I think the main problem is people from both sides just think about their own experience as a point and don't see points of people on other spectrum. It's really not that hard to see the picture from 3rd perspective if you just stop think about your own experience and how you personally think about it.
If FF battle design were more versatile this topic wouldn't exist on scope that it does now. (people would still complain tho because no matter how you try you can't satisfy everyone)
The PF is not a "you" issue. It's a GAME issue. Putting in content that can't be accomplished through the means provided by the game without pulling your hair out is not a good gameplay experience.
Putting in a tiny amount of effort into joining or creating your own group is now considered "pulling your hair"? Are you taking the piss right now? Also, how can it be a game issue if PF in JP had a good experience. It is very clearly an issue specific to the PF on EU/NA.
Yes, you are responsible. If the PF sucks and you know it sucks, look for players elsewhere. You call it a game issue... okay. What do you want the developers to do about it?
But many clear in pf no problem. So its the quality of players not the game
@@imacuttlefish6832 if PF sucks, and you know it sucks, the best option is to not do the content. I already went through PF hell to get BiS.
Squares goal should be getting people into content they want to play as easily as possible. They literally created PF to do that, but it doesn’t work.
@@wildinstinct1585 nobody clears in PF “no problem.” You can’t even make a group in PF without running into SOME problem.
@@qwertythekid2688 okay i apologies on that "no problem". They are problems but it can be done. Its not easy but its not impossible. I cleared in 2 days pf. All my extreme and savage are always pf so i kinda understand how to bear it a little better
Blind prog and Ulti are the only two reasons I boot this game anymore lol
haha fair
Same for me. Casual content is just boring for me now. I'll probably run all the new content when it releases, but all the fun I have is with more difficult content.
anything over 8 players is gonna be impossible to prog for us casual players in oce. you have more luck finding 7 players helping you out to prog instead of 23 players. I really enjoy the current savages and extremes.
I think the biggest mistake with this content is the fact that it's a 8-men raid scaled up to 24-men instead of being an 24-men alliance raid with a boost to difficulty. So, just like in Ex's/Savages/Ultimate you can easily wipe if a player messes up, differently from an alliance raid, where multiple people need to make mistakes to make a wipe. It's way too easy to point the finger and blame someone in this content, specially because you can't simply carry someone due to the body checks. For less disciplined communities like the western, these factors make the fight at least 10x harder than it should, and unless you have plenty of free time to spend organizing groups, it's not even worth getting into. This content will probably be dead after the release of the next savage tier.
I personally disagree. The punishment factor is there in place precisely to separate it from a regular 24man. Why would we need more of the same kind of content? That's just redundancy. Simply wait for the next 24man raid in 7.3. And there will likely be pseudo 24man stuff in the relic content, like how we had Delubrum Normal.
I agree that this content doesn't mix well with western communities and their sense of entitlement, but I disagree with your sentiment that organising a group requires "plenty of free time". I was able to make my own group from scratch, while working, while also being busy studying at uni. It's not as big of a time investment as you think, which is why at the end of my video, I wanted to encourage more people to give it a shot.
This content won't be dead for a long, looong time, of that I can assure you. I have personally been involved in select discord groups that organise runs for this fight and they certainly won't be letting it die for many, many years.
The PF itself might die, but honestly, who cares? If anything... good riddance.
The whole video was valid up until about 6 minutes in when you discussed Party Finder. The issue is 2 things 1.) Party Finder should not BE this insufferable and only is due to inconsistent playstyle and bad players, purely thats it and 2.) the community needs to start taking raiding feedback rather than saying "you don't pay my subscription" shut up and go play something casual then, there are mechanics that need to be performed, playstyle is one thing, SIMPLY NOT DOING A MECHANIC RIGHT is YOU NOT DOING THE MECHANIC RIGHT.
Square needs to put all their server PFs together into one big list. Make prog info visible to everyone like it is in FFlogs.
I'm a little confused where it stops being valid, because you and I share the same opinion here. That it's an issue of the bad community, not a fight design problem.
I mean, he did say it's a community issue, not a dev issue. I think he agrees with you that it's an issue with the community. I would like to see more restrictions to pf like prog point restrictions, but that opens up a whole new mess and the devs would have to guess what pf prog points would need to be, so it's not really a viable solution. In the end, the community needs to do better and understand, prog point doesn't mean reaching a mechanic once, it means reaching a mechanic consistently.
@ a list of points out of 100 would work just fine. Anything is better than what we have.
That’s not a community issue because community behavior is directly influenced by the PF mechanics. You lie because you can and because it’s optimal. They forced this behavior through their design.
@qwertythekid2688 I don't think it's necessarly forced. If every person only joined at their prog point, the issue wouldn't exist. It doesn't matter what fight you run. There will always be prog liars. Take ultimate, for example. There are plenty of paypal legends who join duty complete parties, and once you actually play with them, you realize they never learned the fight
God these are some of the worst takes I've ever heard. I was gonna write a big rant but it ended up being so long I'm almost certain nobody would read it. As someone who did know what to expect and then the result of the Chatoics release was exactly what I expected - You're not putting that at the feet of the community with your dismissive often strawman cyclical arguments.
It's not gonna have the longevity of Field Operations full stop - and just because you managed to have a good experience doesn't overrule peoples bad experiences. For most people starting your own group... That's still Party Finder. People don't have a social apparatus for 23 other people they can trust to join in... At most 7 which be your static.
You mention the body check thing as if the people complaining about it are talking out of frustration of not being able to solve it themselves, when they are talking about doing it in a PF someone dies then you're back sitting around for 30 minutes as the group breaks apart.
This content makes sense for Japanese Data Centers only... and you had the audacity to tell people to be born Japanese. fuck off.
Can you give an example of me arguing using a strawman or a cyclical argument?
Yes, it will have the longevity of those activities, the fact that the BA/DRS discords have already adopted this as part of their scheduled activities is proof enough of that. The PF itself might die but who cares about that?
Re starting your own group, that's complete rubbish. It's very reasonable to get together 24 players. I don't even have a static and I already filled like half the group from my FC alone, and then I got the remaining (and then some) through simply asking people I have met along my raiding journey, most through PF in the first place, mind you.
And just think about it logically. If there is such a massive sentiment that PF is the issue, you got all these people that rather not do PF-why don't those people start looking for each other, seeing as they are likeminded people? Well, my personal opinion is that there is a rather simple answer: nobody wants to take the initiative, and put in the effort into organizing, scheduling and recruiting.
How could there be a lack of players, when people can easily form groups for even such obscure content like BA or BLU mage savage fights?
Oh okay, you imply I argued in bad faith by strawmanning, yet you yourself take one of 3 of my PF solutions, dismiss 2 of them altogether, and imply my main thesis is the one I clearly made as a joke. Right.
@@imacuttlefish6832 Your strawman is assuming people had no idea how difficult the fight would be or how much a pain it be to run in PF it's the core of this tired thesis. Many people in the community knew "What to expect" well ahead of time. Those that did try faced the very flaws with the content anybody from a mile away could have seen. Nobody is ever expecting to just jump in and beat a difficult boss. So this concept of players didn't know what to expect or feel like they should just leap into PF and just get their rewards is imaginary and not the central focus of most peoples complaints. Ergo, Strawman.
No it won't have the longevity because unlike BA/DRS you can't unsync those and do those anytime field operations foster a grouping mentality because the environment is dangerous and necessitates not going at it alone in order to enjoy it. In a few years time you can just unsync this Chaotic raid, get the two mounts, glam and hair style - two of which I'm certain you can just buy? It's 730 ilvl gear is hardly worth the hassle to get when it's gonna be made obsolete by next patch anyways.
The fact players have to take the initiative, organize, schedule and accommodate content in a game which has fostered the 8 man cell for so long and close knit community groups. Unlike a Blue mage groups where you're doing it for a friend - people don't have a spectrum of friends so vast as to bring along players widely varying in skill level along for a 24 man raid as they would bringing their blu mage buddy along to get the spell they need in a quick sometimes unsynced encounter.
Organizing a group as it were is the same as just joining a PF that's already up at that point. So your suggestion for people who don't want to PF... is to form their own group in PF??? And that's your logical conclusion... Ask your FC? Did it ever occur to you that most people segment their friend groups into categories based off how this content was catered. Most people don't raid with their FC, most people have statics. Most people who don't have statics have linkshells... none of which are made to accommodate pulling 23 people from the aether to go do a difficult boss in a somewhat reasonable manner.
It works in Japan data centers because they for some reason do Savage in their duty finder, the Western audiences are not acclimated to tackling content in such a way because they never had to - but you want to blame the community when it's very clear if you have even the slightest pulse on the player base as a whole this was going to cause problems but your excuse for that is "What do you expect?" - THIS this is what was to be expected - and guess what that means, it means you got to accept that a lot of folk aren't going to be touching this content for that very same reason.
BA is obscure but it is content that requires cooperation to fully engage with the content. Nobody is going to continually in good faith be doing an old chaotic raid for no reason other than for the fun. Specially with Occult Crescent and Cosmic exploration in the wings - real things that people can sink their teeth into that isn't a Extreme/Savage level commitment from the jump, that they can take at their own pace. Midcore content isn't a difficulty setting... it's an investment. There's no investment here unless doing a fight that be much more satisfying with a large group of friends is ultimately untenable for reasons I already covered.
Lastly just because you managed to have a GOOD experience doesn't over rule many others BAD experiences which is where.
I was keeping my comment brief because as I watched the video more and more - the more I realized you just don't get it. You're not trying to relate to other peoples experiences just project your own. That might give you a modicum of satisfaction but it doesn't transfer to others whom could have all manner of reasons non-explicitly listed here. There.
@@imacuttlefish6832 And one last thing. I wouldn't care so much about this video if it wasn't for the fact you lay the blame for people not having a good experience with the Chaotic raid at the feet of the Community that has vast multitudes of really reasoned arguments for not liking this content. I have a buddy of mine who did dhis through grinding PF it took him four days of non-stop playing to get a clear... imagining the toil he had to go through to achieve that agonizes me but he managed to have fun with it. Many more I know however see that experience and would choose to avoid it.
@@NotTheWheel I wouldn't consider it a strawman as when I'm discussing it, I deliberately bring up random commentaries by people which I am addressing. At best you could call it cherrypicking, although some comments do also have upvotes in them, so.
But even that aside: if people knew what to expect, and didn't act entitled, I certainly wouldn't be here talking about it. I put this video off for weeks because I didn't consider it worth it from a risk analysis standpoint, and ended up doing it anyway. Why would I do that for an imaginary issue? But I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that, you clearly already made your judgement on my intentions.
As for the rest:
No, it won't die, because it's hard IL synced and those communities will keep it alive. But I don't see a point in arguing this if it's just us going yes it will, no it won't.
Yes, that is precisely what I am suggesting people do regarding organizing their group. Take it or leave it.
To your final point, aye, I do not relate to these issues, because my approach is altogether different. You got it.
Do you have any other questions for me?
@ I'm glad you brought up your friend's experience because now we can get to the root of the issue that I have.
I do sympathise with people that have to deal with all the numerous issues one has to face in PF, such as people lying about their prog and ragequitters.
Where my sympathy ends, however, is when people take that anger out on the developers.
So, would I feel bad for your friend? In all likelihood, yes. But would I continue to feel bad for him if he went on the internet to moan about the fight, and even potentially needlessly insult the developers over issues that amount to his personal problems? Absolutely not. Because he would have exhausted all my sympathy at that point.
Hosnestly if 8 player raid is a drama hell 24 will make bald xeno rich with drama reacts 😂 lesgoo
What you mean “retired” bro you just stopped playing some content don’t act like you’re a military veteran LOL
Aye, that is precisely what I mean, good on you for figuring that out!
@@imacuttlefish6832the fuck wow what a way to respond
The chaotic raid is fun to play. There's nothing wrong with the content. IT'S THE PEOPLE ALWAYS!!! Sometimes ppl don't pay attention to their timers. Perhaps ppl don't watch where they are going and cause a ko from the player, making the fight difficult. Calling ppl out of the problems and ppl don't take the criticism well because of how ppl said, thinking that ppl can read their minds on a certain tone for them to not flip out. Other than that, I want SE to create more chaotic content like this. To give more fresh ideas for 24-mans cause this game really needs it.
Yes, you are right, this is a community issue and...I don't see that being solved anytime soon. I don't think the timing of the release will solve that core issue anyways. This can only be fixed from the individual alone and that person will have to see and fix that problem themselves.
I don't think the issue will be solved either. Because it's really an issue of our current western society, and particularly the poor parenting styles, such as helicopter parenting, that have been utilised the past few generations. Among other things.
I also 100% agree on the timing sentiment. I have seen it crop up a few times in this comment section: people claiming that the fight simply released at the wrong time.
I personally don't buy into that idea at all. They could've released this after the relic content, they could've released it in 7.3, 7.5, or freaking 9.0. You would've seen the exact same complaints.
this fight wasn't even that hard to PF, took maybe the same amount of time as M3S or M4S in PF.
Honestly, that's a valid point. I think people expected to get it done as quickly as an EX trial, which clearly didn't happen. So this whole thing about taking ages to clear in PF could simply be related to that.
People underestimated the fight. I did initially as well. But when i got pulled in by death a couple of times and got hit due to the speed of attacks and things happening, i adjusted my mind to savage mode and it was no problem. These people complaining are the ones that make pf look bad. I cleared over 50times in pf
@ I get what you mean, I do the same. Like when I run an expert roulette or something, I kind of turn my brain off and occasionally get hit by stuff and I don't really care. But in this fight, especially in P2, it quickly became evident that you got to at least respect it a little bit and give it its due attention. Not just a casual stroll through the park, so to speak.
love the fact i dont need to watch the video to get an understanding of this shit show lol
haha glad you've found it entertaining
But you see, PF IS bad, the way i cleared it was literally realize I was on Elemental instead of Mana, my home DC, and went back there to get the clear.
And regarding the vuln stack from towers, It's really hard to time the Tank LB from the second set of towers so it last long enough you don't die to Dark Dominion cast, it doesn't feel that was intended that you use your tank LB there, more like, try healer LB 3, because right after that there could be a body check. But how many of these comment are from first week anyway?
also 3:40 That was their intention but did they succeed? the only thing I learnt and found new from the 24 man raid was, 1: people have no idea that they can't be hurt after being rezzed for 5 seconds, and 2, don't rezz others form other alliance during rapid sequences particle beams . This point of yours is honestly really disingenuous, this fight really is just a scaled up 8 man extreme, not even savage, with some really bad design choice like random place for you too appear after you die, even though there clearly will be a body check later (that was clearly admitted to have been slightly over-tuned).
(to follow up the 3:40 part) Some even more bad design choice like dark dominion not letting you run outside, like, why, I get it, they want to make it hard, you are supposed to be punished for messing up, but then wouldn't that just blow up the *They are showing leniency to the fight* point? So what is it?
The other points I guess it's fine, the first comment is clearly a joke, please don't mind it
Why would it need to cover the dark dominion cast?
1 hour video of just talking about FF14 stuff is just so damn perfect when you are doing eureka/bozja, thank you!
Hahah glad I was able to help you out on your grind!
"24 players doesn't add any value."
8 players doesn't add any value for anyone but tanks and exclusively because of Provoke. Jobs have single target and AoE. There isn't an instance in which a tank won't use AoE on 3+ targets or their cooldowns when taking damage. Or a DPS won't do their rotation, or a healer won't spam rocks and heal when they need to.
"24 players adds a social element." It really doesn't. It's very clear you do not understand what you're talking about. Final Fantasy XIV content is like riding the subway. The act of traveling from one place to the other doesn't change depending on who you ride the subway with. Whatever experience happens while in the subway, for example: Watching a Movie. Has nothing to do with the subway itself and its purpose of getting you from one place to the other.
Just because you manually found a crowd of people to do the content with it doesn't mean you actually played social 'content' or a social 'game'. "Who are you to say that?" Is nowhere near close to enough of an argument let alone criticism of the content itself but of the players.
This meme of 'If you personally feel'-- People can feel a certain way about something, but that doesn't make the facts suddenly go away. 8, or 24 players doesn't change how jobs perform or what they do or how combat works. It can't, the game is incompatible with the idea because of it's hyper homogenized Job design and the lack of RPG mechanics.
Another thing about 'entitlement': The problem isn't that people want to have everything and can't get it despite paying the same fee everyone else does. The problem is that they have to wait almost a year for things to do and obtain. So obviously they are going to feel like they want the things in the game available now. You can't blame people for wanting things to do in a game that charges a sub to even log in.
The more I watch this video I have become to understand you aren't even talking about the content itself but how much you hate the players, which is sincerely just about what I'd expect from the XIV community. You're responding to people's criticism, not critiquing the fight yourself.
To your last point. Congratulations on figuring out what both the title of the video and the intro to the video say.
How is it not a social experience when 24 players come together from different backgrounds, helping to recruit players from their statics, FCs, linkshells etc., who then agree to set aside time to do this activity at an agreed-upon schedule, while also signing a *social contract* whereby everyone agrees to remain blind for the entirety of prog, including giving feedback on other articles such as Min IL and undermanning the fight?
You can even see these social elements play out in the video itself: There are clips of us seeing mechanics for the first time, which invariably lead to us discussing what we had just seen as a group, sharing our pov's, and formulating different strategies to solve those mechanics.
There is background footage where I have all 24 players in a discord stream, watching as I demonstrate mechanics through diagrams I made specifically for them.
There is a clip of the nerd celebrations as we defeat the boss, and people collectively laughing over my dumbass mistake of full inventory.
These are all social experiences only made possible by the Chaotic 24man existing, and it precisely being 24 instead of 8 enhancing those elements further.
But you want me to keep going? Sure. What is funny is that this _very video_ in itself is also contributing to my group's social experience.
You think I came to these conclusions on my own as a random shower thought? Nope. These were things that we discussed extensively as a group, in both voice and text chat, after we cleared the fight.
We are also sharing some of the comments in our group. On rare occasion, talking about actually constructive criticism left by people-but most of of the stuff we share are ridiculous comments, where we use those people with their silly takes as our entertainment monkeys. Much like yours.
So there's a certain irony in you claiming there is no social experience, yet you yourself are contributing to our group's social experience.
@@imacuttlefish6832 I can host a party and do all of those things you did over watching grass grow. You can make anything a 'social experience'. That doesn't add a social element to the mechanics of grass growing.
Your 'social contract' isn't any more valuable than the people that cleared through PF. All of those players were taking time out of their lives to, in one way or the other clear the content.
If you personally feel like having a high number of players adds a 'social element' to FFXIV's content you're completely free to to have that opinion. Just know that you are completely clueless.
To explain a little further. Hunts aren't more of a social experience than anything else could be despite the massive number of players. The content isn't designed so that players can change the outcome of how it is played through their actions. The content doesn't care about how many players there are or what the job composition is. Regardless of the amount of organization you choose to do, the content is solved in the same exact way every time.
people cry and see no flaw on tthem is clearly he games fault and everyone else
I'm having a lot more fun with 24 - you can include a lot more people - friends of friends, mashing together statics, and be more communal.
It's a ton of fun to bring such a group together for sure
Hey Alright
Damn this vid speaks TRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUE
Finally, someone who agrees with me. In my opinion, COD is one of the best things that ever happened to FFXIV, and I ran it from day 1 in PF. I met people in PF that I got along with and added them as friends to get groups together to reclear the fight. This is the perfect content to get the community to work together. The mechanics are simple but not braindead. This is the midcore content we needed. Does the game have issues? Yes, all games have issues, and it is the issue COD, no. Is the issue lack of casual content? No, those people complaining about that are the same people who haven't grinded out previous relic weapons but will complain theres no relic grind, theyre the same people who never ran eureks or bosja but complain theres no expansion zone. They have plenty to do, but instead of doing older content, they complain.
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Yes. People do that all the time and it's really annoying. In Heavensward, everyone hated the relic. Eureka comes out "oh the HW was so good, Eureka so bad". Bozja comes out "wow Eureka was so much better, Bozja is so bad". Huge moaning that relic content sucks. SE says "okay, we won't add relic content, you simply get it while doing other stuff" then community goes "noo they removed all the relic content and the game sucks now". I guarantee you people will once again moan about the relic grind, and soon some smart guy will say "hey guys the Endwalker relic was so good, all you had to do was get tomes"
@imacuttlefish6832 The community loves to complain about everything. I've seen it year after year. There's also the discourse of ffxiv is dying, which happens after every expansion. I think people need to understand that the MMO genre is different from mobile games and shooters. They can't just release new content non-stop because it's fundamentally different. My answer to the complains is if you hate the game so much, why are you playing it, why are you paying your sub, and why are you watching videos about it, just quit playing if it's so bad.
@ It takes a well-adjusted, mature adult to recognize something isn't for them and back out, and then spend their energy elsewhere. An entitled manchild is incapable, for them the game is their entire world and their sense of self-worth revolves around it.
It's true there is some level of hate after every expansion, I certainly remember the Stormblood days. But I feel even SB wasn't as bad as it is now. I really don't know where all these manchildren came from. But it's starting to get old.
@imacuttlefish6832 I personally take a break from the game a lot, I took a 3 year break after shadowbringers, then another 2 year break after endwalked. When you stop having fun, it's time to take a break, when you come back you'll see the game in a new light and the enjoyment will come back. Too many people make the game their entire identity and spend all their free time on it, and its just not healthy.