I think Alisae is better received because she is, yes, impulsive and emotionally driven, but not stupid. She has full understanding of the situations she is in. What I mean is that compared to many other characters who follow her archetype, she has a functioning brain
I think that's a really good shout. I missed an opportunity there, since I do bring up that point but I don't actually tie it into the discussion about the archetype, I kinda just mention it on the side. Thanks for pointing it out!
Alisaie being well received despite being the oft-divisive upbeat character is I think, down to a few factors. First up is the contrast with her twin, and especially her constant roasting of Alphinaud, which from my own observations of the fandom, could basically be declared our national sport. Second is the performances of both Bethan Walker and RIe Murakawa, they don't try to act cutesy or young, and instead Alisaie comes across as a passionate, driven young woman who wears ALL her emotions on her sleeve. She's not just someone who tries to lift the mood, when Alisaie's angry about something, everyone is going to know about it. And the big one is that they've channeled all that into her being as hot-blooded as hell. So many of the other 'upbeat' characters are mood lifters or comic relief in some way, but Alisae's attitude is best summed up by her reaction to rampaging hippogriffs in that glorious cutscene at the end of 5.3 - leaping off the balcony with a look of pure delight at having a problem that can be solved with violence.
If Alisaie was in charge of the Eulmore situation... yeah, she better had kept to the plan, cause she couldn't fake being a painter to save her life, litterally. Worked much better for Alphinaud. Same for the reverse, Alphinaud is just not cut for the daily sineater culling, let alone challenging the limits of mind's nature, he would have gone with the rest of the caretaker team.
Had this idea with my friends. The story should take a big turn. Something that unfortunately would remove most of the known characters from the story to introduce new ones. My idea would be that a future dlc would have our character launched into a future time period by some new foe that knows that they can't kill the WoL but can put them far into the future where they can't stand in their way. Doing this removes a powerful character and allows the others to step up. In the future we'd learn most if not all of our comrades have passed either from combat or age, leaving characters like the twins older and maybe the last two members of the former Scions. Could you imagine a much older Alisaie and Alphinaud reaction to the return of the WoL and their reaction to older twins still fighting for a better future?
I'm really enjoying your character analysis videos, they're very well-made and they're giving me lots of narrative food for thought. Keep up the good work!
Just finished watching the video. I agree with so many points and things I didn't notice about both the twins before. I love that ffxiv does background character development so well and it always shows in the character's actions, expressions or reactions to things even if it is subtle and they did that so well with alosae being effectively absent for 2/5 of the entire story. We can bring out so much meaning from the analysis of every character's small and subtle actions. This is great and consistent writing and it amazes me how ffxiv keeps it up with the sheer scale of the story, character and world.
Ey I'm super glad to hear it! Tbh with you I had this nagging thought at the back of my head that maybe people won't appreciate the fact that I spent way more time talking about Alphinaud than I did Alisaie, so it's good to hear that it was good regardless haha I agree, FFXIV is really quite fantastic in that sense. It's kind of a gift that keeps on giving, like u can go back and NG+ an earlier story and notice so much stuff and appreciate it all the more
While Alisaie having an extreme reaction to the WoL and others sacrificing themselves is probably not the way to go about it, her criticism of that thought process is brilliant and honestly I agree with her. She understands that martyrdom is not a replacement for solidarity. What can be achieved by the sacrifice of just one person cannot touch the edges of what can be achieved when communities and friends work together to solve an issue. She is critical of this self sacrifice not only for her own emotional attachment, but because she realizes the hypocrisy of it. You sacrifice yourself to make the world a "better" place, but the world wouldn't be "better" without the WoL in it to begin with. You can't do any further good if you're dead. To quote Venat herself - "To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness."
Really good analysis there, and I agree! It's such a refreshing change, since usually in stories, selflessness and the willingness to sacrifice oneself for the greater good, well that's seen as very heroic and desirable. Which the ancients represent in the context of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark story. Really appreciate that FFXIV kind of gave us an opposing message through Alisaie's character. I also appreciate you bringing up the parallel with Venat, cos I deffo think this theme resurfaces with the ancients. I still remember when I first played Shadowbringers, and I found myself questioning Emet's statement of "would your people sacrifice half to save the other?", and using that to argue the current people are inferior because they are too selfish to make such a sacrifice. Which makes sense, as he argues from the viewpoint of a very collectivist society, where it is a nobrainer thing to do. But on the flip side, you could argue that could also be seen as a positive characteristic, and a sign of strength. The fact that people would see all life as precious and fight to preserve it, instead of going for the readily available option of "oh well, half the people gotta go". It's an interesting topic because there isn't necessarily a right or a wrong answer. Both can be seen as a bad thing. Not advocating for sacrifice play could be seen as selfish, greedy even (from the viewpoint of, wanting to have your cake and eating it too). But likewise, wanting to sacrifice could be seen as taking the easy way out, and also results in placing less value in individual lives (and the hypocrisy element you mentioned). Or both could be seen as a good thing, and a sign of virtue.
The biggest issue with the sacrificing of lives for zodiark, is that it mirrors the inevitable end of the logic of "sacrifice the few for the many." The conclusion of which is... More sacrifice. You cannot fix all of the worlds ills by putting them on the backs of the few, and in vise versa, when does "the few" become too much? For me this isn't a collectivist vs individualist lense, it's simply looking at the fault in this logic. In a way I think Venat's ideals were MORE collective. Suffering exists, and you can't make it go away no matter your acts of heroism, or self sacrifice, or scientific achievement etcetera. The only way through suffering is together. So that you don't shoulder the burden alone. Alisaie is spot on when she chastises Alphinaud about the WoL's predicament in Ultima Thule. Sure it seems childish on the surface, but to me she's making perfect sense, why are all the entire universe's collective wills the responsibility of one person? That's not right, and surely the weight of that would be unbearable.
@@dunnejos8423 I brought up the collectivist thing more so cos it rationalises (in my mind), the ancients inclination to come to that solution of sacrificing to Zodiark, since I feel in a more collectivist society, the barrier for that kind of self-sacrifice is perhaps a bit lower than normal. Though it's worth mentioning of course, that the ancients society in general was structured around the idea of "fulfill your purpose to the star, then pass away". So it's a very easy step from there, to just say "well, sacrificing yourself to this god is fulfilling your purpose" It also makes a lot of sense when we consider how powerful the soul of an ancient is (eg when we fought Hydaelyn in the trial, that was her expending the remains of her soul). So seeing as they couldn't identify the source behind the calamity that caused the Final Days, it's pre logical to just throw your most powerful resource, souls of the people, at the problem. That said, you are deffo correct in that it's not necessarily an issue tied to individualism vs collectivism, or to the ancients society in general (although I would proffer they are way more inclined to do so because of the aforementioned factors). Indeed, we can see how the sundered people have arrived at very similar conclusions throughout the ages. Take the company of heroes as an example. Since they didn't have people blessed with the Echo, the only way they could defeat a primal was to literally throw wave after wave of people at the primal until it died (which was pretty horrifying when you consider each time, they had to not just fight the primal, but also slay their tempered comrades). So we could point and say, well that's a bit of a silly solution, since it mirrors human wave military tactics we've seen throughout our own history. But we also saw how it was a complete game changer when people like the WoL came along, who had the Echo and could almost single-handedly defeat these primals. Without such a blessing however, it's hard to blame them for coming to a solution that required immense sacrifice of human lives. In desperate times, people gonna take desperate measures, right? And it just so happens that usually when we've exhausted all other options, the one thing we can always fall back on is pressing the "throw bodies at it" button. But this is also why I love the message behind Alisaie's character, of being kind of anti-sacrifice. Because in the case of G'raha Tia, it seemed on the surface as if there was no other solution. But when we dug a bit deeper, and with some hard work, we *created* a solution that was not present beforehand. What I mean to say here is that it's a very humane flaw, to maybe not dig through enough to find a solution, since we are so limited in our capability to see things through multiple perspectives and angles. And from there, it's easy to become desperate and take the solution that requires immense sacrifice, but fixes the problem in the short term, even if it may cause issues in long term, such as through people becoming complacent, and always relying on the few wiping the ass of the many through sacrifice. The company of heroes situation is a prime example of such a case. It was a desperate answer, and a very short term solution. Because in the long run, they pretty much fixed *nothing*. The root issues between them and the "beast tribes" still persisted, and those primals kept getting summoned. If the WoL hadn't come along, they probably would have kept resorting to the sacrificial waves over and over again. I think the story very much wants to say that to sacrifice the one (or the few) is a crutch, and it's something we shouldn't resort to.... well, ideally never. But if you are going to, you had best make damn sure you've exhausted every possible option beforehand.
@@dunnejos8423 Apologies for the double reply, but I wanted to add that I agree with your take on the flawed logic regarding the ancients, and it's a solid observation! As for the WoL carrying all the burden, I do like what they did with that at the end of Endwalker there, so aye, that was a good bit of writing! Regarding Venat, she certainly acted from a place of selflessness, in that she genuinely felt this was the best course for all of mankind. However, there's a certain irony in that the sole reason Venat was able to sunder Zodiark, was because a handful of people who fully sacrificed themselves to summon, and empower, Hydaelyn enough to the point that She could sunder Him. (side note: I talk about those guys in more detail in the Hydaelyn video, if you want more context!)
What you are talking about at 16:24 is in my opinion FFXIVs biggest floor for early progression. Alot of new players last time with Alisaie is in ARR. Then she stops showing up. And you meet her in that state again. In my opinion they should make a story ark before going to HW like Crystal Tower with a solo scenario where the same story that was told in Coil of Bahamut is told. I remember how sad I was when I mid Stormblood told my friend to do Coil of Bahamut with me for the story unsync. and Alphinaud was bag in old style, and worst a full ark for Alisaie from before the poison arrow. FFXIV have a good story and I am playing it the same day it comes out, but mistakes like Coil is one of the resasons I cant rank ARR high on a list.
Aye, it's such a shame. But, I'm personally expecting a rework of Bahamut at some point during Dawntrail. I don't think they have ever brought this up, so it is admittedly just my crackpot theory, but they are certainly aware of the issue, and are prolly just waiting for an opportunity to do it. Plus, with both ShB and EW, they've begun taking some serious steps towards improving the ARR experience. So I deffo see Bahamut as the next logical step!
i think alisaie is very cool character and i much prefer her to alphinaud, but i really feel bad that it seems the writers are simply unwilling to have a character like yda again. her character kind of got split into a bunch of characters: alisaie, y'shtola, wuk lamat, could even argue ryne and Gaia. But they never really brought back that kind of bubbly girl energy thats about looking pretty and pummeling bad guys. now i know that of course her character was a bit shallow, but I don't think it needed to stay that way. all of the arr characters were shallow but she was the only one (maybe aside from Minfilia) who had to be deleted from the game and pretty much have a complete personality resign going forwards. and honestly i just don't really feel like alisaie is a replacement for that, not that i think she's meant to be. even now with wuk lamat, they're doing another kinda upbeat positive character thing but she seems to be pretty much a basic "dumb but strong" character
I, too, was put off by the whole Lyse thing back in the day. I think I've come to terms with it now but it was definitely a baffling choice for a couple of reasons, one of them being the one you stated. I never thought of that, but you are right, the Wuk is perhaps the closest to Yda. But I rather not open the can of worms that is Wuk Lamat hahah
When I first started the game I found Alphinaud annoying, his attitude, his speech, and even how he dressed.. Then Heavensward let me see him fall down, and slowly build himself up to the kind of character I was happy to see as a younger brother, or even just a good friend. Alphinaud for me is thoughtful, resourceful, and a man of planning who knows nothing is assured but still tries. His sister though is spunky, is unwilling to sit idle, and is a woman of action. They combine in a way to make a good pair of people, one who is looking ahead and preparing as well as he can, and the other willing to do her part, to rush out the moment she can. I'm a fan of all of the Scions but in the end Alphi, Ali, G'raha, and Y'shtola are the four I'd like to spend more time with while adventuring. A adventure with jokes, plans, failures, explosions, and often just fun.
I think Alisae is better received because she is, yes, impulsive and emotionally driven, but not stupid. She has full understanding of the situations she is in.
What I mean is that compared to many other characters who follow her archetype, she has a functioning brain
I think that's a really good shout. I missed an opportunity there, since I do bring up that point but I don't actually tie it into the discussion about the archetype, I kinda just mention it on the side. Thanks for pointing it out!
Alisaie being well received despite being the oft-divisive upbeat character is I think, down to a few factors. First up is the contrast with her twin, and especially her constant roasting of Alphinaud, which from my own observations of the fandom, could basically be declared our national sport. Second is the performances of both Bethan Walker and RIe Murakawa, they don't try to act cutesy or young, and instead Alisaie comes across as a passionate, driven young woman who wears ALL her emotions on her sleeve. She's not just someone who tries to lift the mood, when Alisaie's angry about something, everyone is going to know about it. And the big one is that they've channeled all that into her being as hot-blooded as hell. So many of the other 'upbeat' characters are mood lifters or comic relief in some way, but Alisae's attitude is best summed up by her reaction to rampaging hippogriffs in that glorious cutscene at the end of 5.3 - leaping off the balcony with a look of pure delight at having a problem that can be solved with violence.
Wow! I couldn't have asked for a better explanation. Awesome!!
If Alisaie was in charge of the Eulmore situation... yeah, she better had kept to the plan, cause she couldn't fake being a painter to save her life, litterally. Worked much better for Alphinaud. Same for the reverse, Alphinaud is just not cut for the daily sineater culling, let alone challenging the limits of mind's nature, he would have gone with the rest of the caretaker team.
Well put!
Had this idea with my friends. The story should take a big turn. Something that unfortunately would remove most of the known characters from the story to introduce new ones. My idea would be that a future dlc would have our character launched into a future time period by some new foe that knows that they can't kill the WoL but can put them far into the future where they can't stand in their way. Doing this removes a powerful character and allows the others to step up. In the future we'd learn most if not all of our comrades have passed either from combat or age, leaving characters like the twins older and maybe the last two members of the former Scions.
Could you imagine a much older Alisaie and Alphinaud reaction to the return of the WoL and their reaction to older twins still fighting for a better future?
I'm really enjoying your character analysis videos, they're very well-made and they're giving me lots of narrative food for thought. Keep up the good work!
Thanks, it means a lot!
Thank you for the video! Was another great one. :D
Glad you enjoyed it!
Just finished watching the video. I agree with so many points and things I didn't notice about both the twins before. I love that ffxiv does background character development so well and it always shows in the character's actions, expressions or reactions to things even if it is subtle and they did that so well with alosae being effectively absent for 2/5 of the entire story. We can bring out so much meaning from the analysis of every character's small and subtle actions. This is great and consistent writing and it amazes me how ffxiv keeps it up with the sheer scale of the story, character and world.
Ey I'm super glad to hear it! Tbh with you I had this nagging thought at the back of my head that maybe people won't appreciate the fact that I spent way more time talking about Alphinaud than I did Alisaie, so it's good to hear that it was good regardless haha
I agree, FFXIV is really quite fantastic in that sense. It's kind of a gift that keeps on giving, like u can go back and NG+ an earlier story and notice so much stuff and appreciate it all the more
Love these long videos! Please keep going =D
While Alisaie having an extreme reaction to the WoL and others sacrificing themselves is probably not the way to go about it, her criticism of that thought process is brilliant and honestly I agree with her. She understands that martyrdom is not a replacement for solidarity. What can be achieved by the sacrifice of just one person cannot touch the edges of what can be achieved when communities and friends work together to solve an issue.
She is critical of this self sacrifice not only for her own emotional attachment, but because she realizes the hypocrisy of it. You sacrifice yourself to make the world a "better" place, but the world wouldn't be "better" without the WoL in it to begin with. You can't do any further good if you're dead. To quote Venat herself - "To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness."
Really good analysis there, and I agree!
It's such a refreshing change, since usually in stories, selflessness and the willingness to sacrifice oneself for the greater good, well that's seen as very heroic and desirable. Which the ancients represent in the context of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark story. Really appreciate that FFXIV kind of gave us an opposing message through Alisaie's character.
I also appreciate you bringing up the parallel with Venat, cos I deffo think this theme resurfaces with the ancients. I still remember when I first played Shadowbringers, and I found myself questioning Emet's statement of "would your people sacrifice half to save the other?", and using that to argue the current people are inferior because they are too selfish to make such a sacrifice. Which makes sense, as he argues from the viewpoint of a very collectivist society, where it is a nobrainer thing to do.
But on the flip side, you could argue that could also be seen as a positive characteristic, and a sign of strength. The fact that people would see all life as precious and fight to preserve it, instead of going for the readily available option of "oh well, half the people gotta go".
It's an interesting topic because there isn't necessarily a right or a wrong answer. Both can be seen as a bad thing. Not advocating for sacrifice play could be seen as selfish, greedy even (from the viewpoint of, wanting to have your cake and eating it too). But likewise, wanting to sacrifice could be seen as taking the easy way out, and also results in placing less value in individual lives (and the hypocrisy element you mentioned). Or both could be seen as a good thing, and a sign of virtue.
The biggest issue with the sacrificing of lives for zodiark, is that it mirrors the inevitable end of the logic of "sacrifice the few for the many." The conclusion of which is... More sacrifice. You cannot fix all of the worlds ills by putting them on the backs of the few, and in vise versa, when does "the few" become too much?
For me this isn't a collectivist vs individualist lense, it's simply looking at the fault in this logic. In a way I think Venat's ideals were MORE collective. Suffering exists, and you can't make it go away no matter your acts of heroism, or self sacrifice, or scientific achievement etcetera. The only way through suffering is together. So that you don't shoulder the burden alone.
Alisaie is spot on when she chastises Alphinaud about the WoL's predicament in Ultima Thule. Sure it seems childish on the surface, but to me she's making perfect sense, why are all the entire universe's collective wills the responsibility of one person? That's not right, and surely the weight of that would be unbearable.
@@dunnejos8423
I brought up the collectivist thing more so cos it rationalises (in my mind), the ancients inclination to come to that solution of sacrificing to Zodiark, since I feel in a more collectivist society, the barrier for that kind of self-sacrifice is perhaps a bit lower than normal.
Though it's worth mentioning of course, that the ancients society in general was structured around the idea of "fulfill your purpose to the star, then pass away". So it's a very easy step from there, to just say "well, sacrificing yourself to this god is fulfilling your purpose"
It also makes a lot of sense when we consider how powerful the soul of an ancient is (eg when we fought Hydaelyn in the trial, that was her expending the remains of her soul). So seeing as they couldn't identify the source behind the calamity that caused the Final Days, it's pre logical to just throw your most powerful resource, souls of the people, at the problem.
That said, you are deffo correct in that it's not necessarily an issue tied to individualism vs collectivism, or to the ancients society in general (although I would proffer they are way more inclined to do so because of the aforementioned factors). Indeed, we can see how the sundered people have arrived at very similar conclusions throughout the ages.
Take the company of heroes as an example. Since they didn't have people blessed with the Echo, the only way they could defeat a primal was to literally throw wave after wave of people at the primal until it died (which was pretty horrifying when you consider each time, they had to not just fight the primal, but also slay their tempered comrades).
So we could point and say, well that's a bit of a silly solution, since it mirrors human wave military tactics we've seen throughout our own history. But we also saw how it was a complete game changer when people like the WoL came along, who had the Echo and could almost single-handedly defeat these primals.
Without such a blessing however, it's hard to blame them for coming to a solution that required immense sacrifice of human lives. In desperate times, people gonna take desperate measures, right? And it just so happens that usually when we've exhausted all other options, the one thing we can always fall back on is pressing the "throw bodies at it" button.
But this is also why I love the message behind Alisaie's character, of being kind of anti-sacrifice. Because in the case of G'raha Tia, it seemed on the surface as if there was no other solution. But when we dug a bit deeper, and with some hard work, we *created* a solution that was not present beforehand.
What I mean to say here is that it's a very humane flaw, to maybe not dig through enough to find a solution, since we are so limited in our capability to see things through multiple perspectives and angles.
And from there, it's easy to become desperate and take the solution that requires immense sacrifice, but fixes the problem in the short term, even if it may cause issues in long term, such as through people becoming complacent, and always relying on the few wiping the ass of the many through sacrifice.
The company of heroes situation is a prime example of such a case. It was a desperate answer, and a very short term solution. Because in the long run, they pretty much fixed *nothing*. The root issues between them and the "beast tribes" still persisted, and those primals kept getting summoned. If the WoL hadn't come along, they probably would have kept resorting to the sacrificial waves over and over again.
I think the story very much wants to say that to sacrifice the one (or the few) is a crutch, and it's something we shouldn't resort to.... well, ideally never. But if you are going to, you had best make damn sure you've exhausted every possible option beforehand.
@@dunnejos8423 Apologies for the double reply, but I wanted to add that I agree with your take on the flawed logic regarding the ancients, and it's a solid observation!
As for the WoL carrying all the burden, I do like what they did with that at the end of Endwalker there, so aye, that was a good bit of writing!
Regarding Venat, she certainly acted from a place of selflessness, in that she genuinely felt this was the best course for all of mankind. However, there's a certain irony in that the sole reason Venat was able to sunder Zodiark, was because a handful of people who fully sacrificed themselves to summon, and empower, Hydaelyn enough to the point that She could sunder Him.
(side note: I talk about those guys in more detail in the Hydaelyn video, if you want more context!)
What you are talking about at 16:24 is in my opinion FFXIVs biggest floor for early progression. Alot of new players last time with Alisaie is in ARR. Then she stops showing up. And you meet her in that state again. In my opinion they should make a story ark before going to HW like Crystal Tower with a solo scenario where the same story that was told in Coil of Bahamut is told.
I remember how sad I was when I mid Stormblood told my friend to do Coil of Bahamut with me for the story unsync. and Alphinaud was bag in old style, and worst a full ark for Alisaie from before the poison arrow.
FFXIV have a good story and I am playing it the same day it comes out, but mistakes like Coil is one of the resasons I cant rank ARR high on a list.
Aye, it's such a shame. But, I'm personally expecting a rework of Bahamut at some point during Dawntrail. I don't think they have ever brought this up, so it is admittedly just my crackpot theory, but they are certainly aware of the issue, and are prolly just waiting for an opportunity to do it.
Plus, with both ShB and EW, they've begun taking some serious steps towards improving the ARR experience. So I deffo see Bahamut as the next logical step!
i think alisaie is very cool character and i much prefer her to alphinaud, but i really feel bad that it seems the writers are simply unwilling to have a character like yda again. her character kind of got split into a bunch of characters: alisaie, y'shtola, wuk lamat, could even argue ryne and Gaia. But they never really brought back that kind of bubbly girl energy thats about looking pretty and pummeling bad guys. now i know that of course her character was a bit shallow, but I don't think it needed to stay that way. all of the arr characters were shallow but she was the only one (maybe aside from Minfilia) who had to be deleted from the game and pretty much have a complete personality resign going forwards. and honestly i just don't really feel like alisaie is a replacement for that, not that i think she's meant to be.
even now with wuk lamat, they're doing another kinda upbeat positive character thing but she seems to be pretty much a basic "dumb but strong" character
I, too, was put off by the whole Lyse thing back in the day. I think I've come to terms with it now but it was definitely a baffling choice for a couple of reasons, one of them being the one you stated.
I never thought of that, but you are right, the Wuk is perhaps the closest to Yda. But I rather not open the can of worms that is Wuk Lamat hahah
When I first started the game I found Alphinaud annoying, his attitude, his speech, and even how he dressed.. Then Heavensward let me see him fall down, and slowly build himself up to the kind of character I was happy to see as a younger brother, or even just a good friend. Alphinaud for me is thoughtful, resourceful, and a man of planning who knows nothing is assured but still tries. His sister though is spunky, is unwilling to sit idle, and is a woman of action. They combine in a way to make a good pair of people, one who is looking ahead and preparing as well as he can, and the other willing to do her part, to rush out the moment she can. I'm a fan of all of the Scions but in the end Alphi, Ali, G'raha, and Y'shtola are the four I'd like to spend more time with while adventuring. A adventure with jokes, plans, failures, explosions, and often just fun.
Thats an awesome summary! And I like the line-up too haha