Deadlift Series #6 SUMO and POWERLIFTING: - Why do People Hate Sumo Deadlifts?
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- Опубліковано 23 січ 2020
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Throughout the internet, droves of newbie lifters can be heard screaming "Sumo is cheating!" in the comment sections of world class powerlifters. Since the inception of powerlifting, sumo has been allowed as a viable option, so why the controversy? In this (long) video, I cover the benefits of sumo deadlifts and dissect the movement as a feat of strength.
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All these comments and we're just going to ignore how perfectly proportioned and accurate Bromley's drawings are?
I can't lie. They're on point!
Ketone Conde true
first thing i noticed lol
We all know he actually graduated college with an art degree
Very nice 🤣
I once had someone call the sumo deadlift "schrodinger's deadlift" because the way people talk about it, it's simultaneously "not easier" than conventional, but also not as impressive. People take notice when someone conventional deadlifts 700lbs. But when most people, especially outside of the powerlifting community, see a 150lb guy sumo the bar loaded with 700 lbs 3 inches off of the ground, they intuitively know that's just not the same thing.
I personally tested a guy good at sumo that hates and barely did any conventional, ROM difference is about 28%. I have seen personally guys (short) doing a 38 cm ROM (15”)
Even if 99% of the world disagrees with me, I stand my ground that sumo is generally easier for every single human being. Its just an inferior exercise. I don't care if someone lifting 1000 lbs disagrees with me, because it's simply the matter of "work" done. Simple physics. it also decreases "torque" of major lever - aka hip - from a lateral view.
@@alkongdalkongalalex in the video stated hes super disadvantaged trying to pull sumo. Ive actually seen countless times where conventional pullers try sumo and cant even touch their conventional numbers. Even with some technique work, their conventional easily surpasses their sumo. I think its a matter of what muscles are stronger. If your naturally stronger sumo, your most likely going to have stronger glutes, hips, and quads (look at every 1000+ sumo puller, huge quads and glutes). Guys with huge legs, hamstrings and backs tend to be stronger conventional, even eddie hall said he cant even sumo past 400kg. But my point is that not everyone will be stronger sumo. But i do think the majority are stronger sumo, i just think your claim of 100% of people being stronger sumo is very inaccurate.
@@davidmacamay7099 given training to pull sumo for every non-sumo pullers, I think it can be very accurate. in the end, this is just my opinion. I don't give credit to any sumo pullers, but they can feel proud all they want. I just think its unfairly advantageous if you are able to pull it.
Think of it this way. Some people are stronger with curls in a universe where curls were the norm. Suddenly people start doing wide-grip bench and can move the weight way more than if they were to do curls. Unfortnately, some curlers don't got the tits and not sure how to activate em. That doesn't mean they are disadvantaged when they bench. it means they just haven't trained to do bench.
Sumo simply allows for utilizing bigger muscle groups and decreases torque and the work done. it's simple physics but people keep denying this. I don't care if strongman champion disagrees. I know what I know and I understand kinetics and biomechanics.
@@alkongdalkongal sumo is only unfairly advantageous if you have the right leverages for it. Majority can pull slightly more, but not by much. The average would probably be 5-10% more. The guys with insane leverages that can get very upright while also maintaining a high hip position are the outliers. They can pull easily 20-30% more than their conventional using sumo. I think this is where the misconception comes from. I'm assuming you think sumo will automatically allow you to pull substantially more weight if trained, which is not true for the average lifter with average genetics. Yes you most likely will pull more, but it's not the "unfairly advantageous" amount you think it will be. In your example you used curls and wide grip bench, which yes that gap is big in terms of strength, but the gap from conventional to sumo is more like narrow grip bench to wide grip bench. It's not as substantial as you think.
Eric Bugenhagen: did someone say _zercher_ deadlift
ric de la thicc
Sticky Ricky
It could very well be the tunes baby
the bugez
ric del hagen
I think it's also easier to manage lower back fatigue when pulling sumo.
That's a good point, and I've programmed sumo before in special circumstances specifically for that reason. But the lack of fatigue in the posterior chain shows it's short coming as a long term developmental exercise.
@@AlexanderBromley yes. Thats why i switch plus i do rdl
@@AlexanderBromley I feel like sumo can just be another tool. Always depends on the situation at hand
I think so too
I switched to semi sumo and I swear it’s better for my 6’5 frame as I’ve deadlifted 585 crappy stiff gym bar conventional
As an old guy that lifts for general strength I prefer a semi sumo stance as it’s easier on my lower back, but I agree totally with everything you’re saying: the conventional and the sumo are two different movements.
Boom. You’ll never meet someone who pulls conv that doesn’t have a back problem of sorts
You'll never meet someone who pulls sumo claiming "back problems/better for my frame" who also squats low bar with knee wraps barely parallel and claims 'back problems/better for my frame" who also bounces the bar off his chest on bench press, who also tells people he lifts more than he does. The thing in common with all of these is ego lifting and that's why people do these types of lifts. Because their numbers are bigger. Conventional does not fuck your back up it fucks your back up when you're trying to lift more than you can and rounding your back trying to inflate your numbers.
@@Magradd it’s because it’s a more technical lift. You’re basically also saying you’ll never meet someone who squats and doesn’t have hip or knee pain at some point. Not everyone has a technically sound deadlift or squat and that in of itself causes issues. Just learn the form and how to brace properly and both movements will take you far.
Don’t neglect hip hinging workouts. Most people I know who take a break on deadlift/hip hinge motions get a lot more back problems until they get back to it. Creating a powerful base will help a lot more then neglecting it and just having a weak ass back
@@Magradd Not me but then again i was never that strong, my max was 260 Kg which was about 2,5 bodyweight. I never did any lifts where I felt my lower back started to round, lots of singles (too many) but always technique had to be on point. I started seriuos powerlifting quite late (doing other sports before that) and my max lift was when I was 50, now at almost 65 I still pull a bit over dubbel bodyweight. Regarding Sumo as cheating, as some say, when I pulled 260 Kg my max sumo was "only" 200. 😁
I find semi-sumo, Ed Coan or SSJ bob style most comfortable for me. Opposed to really wide, upright, squatty type sumo.
never thought i would see Ed Coan and Bobb Matthews in the same sentence lol
I just like conventional because it's conventional. It feels a lot more natural to lift something with my feet not too far out my hips. I never lifted a heavy thing in my life with my feet 1 meter apart.
I have to be fair, and I've never even sumo deadlifted, so I'm not biased at all.
I had to pick up the corner of a shed and there's no way I could pick it up in a conventional deadlift manner, had to have my feet a lot wider.
that's probably cuz your back is your main strength. If you have massive quads, hams, and glutes, then a wide stance actually feels alright.
@@justamustachewithoutaguy9370 i've got a stripper booty so that's not really correct. I deadlift with a pretty wide Stance but sumo is extremely wide. You can hardly move once you locked out in sumo. If you have to lift a fridge or something you're probably moving it. You also have a lot less balance in the lockout position. So even if you have to lift something and hold it there, if that thing starts moving a bit you can't really move a foot to counteract it.
some of us have weird af hips that demand wide stances to do anything lol
@@Gloin79 im newbie and been doing conventional for 3 months and my powerlifting coach recommended adding 1 set of low weight sumo ( conventional 80kg and sumo 60kg) to practice if i want to lift my max potential but god its so hard feels unnatural and as u said hard to balance. I think it consider great amount of skill to master sumo or am i not built for it im 5’1 normal torso to leg ratio but my femurs are longer
I like your videos man. I recently found the channel while I am just barely getting myself out of this stagnant mindset. Been training for 13 years now and grew tired of it and/or lost interest. But your philosophy and information in your videos helped me regain that drive I use to have. I'm bodybuilding focused but I still incorporate powerlifting and strongman regiments into my sessions because those are the foundations of development no matter which athletic discipline you're going after. I must admit, these foundations were what I neglected in the last 3+ years that I believe deteriorated my drive, and in turn my energy, strength and everything. Everyone needs a reminder at some point in the journey. Subbed and will continue watching your videos.
High bar squats and conventional deadlifts are a great combo because the movements are antagonistic; one is almost all anterior chain, and the other is almost all posterior chain. Low bar squats and sumo deadlifts are also a great combo because the movements are synergistic; both exercises offer a balance of anterior chain and posterior chain recruitment.
high bar and conventional are very apposing but low bar and sumo are a lot closer to each other on the squat/hinge continuum, while still apposing movements the difference between each other is less then the former example.
@@BuJammy kinda
low bar squatting point of failure is still knee flexion though (quads). You're not going to get as strong glute stimulus as conventional deadlifts.
@@HaloDude557 knee extension*, but otherwise true.
i dont really understand how people say squat and deadlift are opposing. yes, they work different muscles, but they arent opposites. its like saying dips and pullups are opposites, except the actual mechanical opposite of a dip is a row, and the opposite of a pullup is an overhead press. for me, the real opposite of a squat is a weighted knee raise. for me, the real opposite of a deadlift/hinge/rdl is a dip bar pike up (can be weighted as well with a dip belt or kettlebells on the feet). just squatting and deadlifting completely ignores the direct concentric loading of the hip flexors or abs that oppose the glutes and lower back muscles that drive squats and deads. i know guys think squats hit abs and while they will make your abs stronger than they would be with no lifting, they load the back muscles far more directly, so if you never do some type of direct loading of the hip flexor/ab in your lifts, you wind up with an imbalance. its how influencers like kneesovertoesguy are so popular - theres just so many people who only train squats and deads and never hit hip flexors and abs that his advice on how to hit hip flexors and abs fixes tons of problems for tons of people. it makes him look like a genius but its actually pretty common sense. we all train bench/rows (actual opposites) and ohp/pullups (actual opposites). why not do the same with squats/knee raises and deads/pikeups?
My issue with conventional DL position is that my hips are built in a way that when I'm standing in a neutral position my toes are pointed out. Which means I can't grip the bar at shoulder width without my knees getting in the way. So then I can either spread my knees out enough that my arms can grab the bar at shoulder width between my knees or do a conventional DL with a much wider grip. But that also means that since my grip is wider I'm in more of a clean and jerk style starting position than a DL starting position.
I completely agree, it's nice hearing your opinion on this lol. Also you've got some drawing skills my guy.
Brilliant commentary! I had a discussion many years ago with the late Fred Hatfield about sumo vs conventional deadlifting. We both concurred with your assessment.
Very informative content. Thank you!!
I mainly pull deficit sumo as a strength (powerlifting specific) and glute developmental exercise. To balance out and focus more on the low back and hammies, I do rdls on a different day.
I mainly use sumo because of the high frequency split that I'm on. It helps manage lower back fatigue well
I thought this is gonna be about sumo, when it's actually about development, humility & the spirit of the sport. Thank you Bromley, you're so much more than a lifting coach 🙌
I think you are simply the best powerlifting educator on the internet. thank you for the great information. I hope you continue when your rich and famous
I’ve always been conventional. My hip flexibility and leverages doing translate well to sumo. But I personally have no problem with people doing sumo. Thanks for your thought-provoking episode!
I had to stop deadlifting entirely a while back because of lower back problems. Sumo has allowed me to deadlift comfortably again! Yes, I can deadlift slightly heavier with the sumo stance, but it’s not an outrageous difference and it certainly doesn’t feel like “cheating.”
Same with me, I messed up my lower back years ago from conventional. So I do sumo now, and am happy I can still deadlift.
That's most people. But when you see someone who can sumo deadlift 800+ pounds but can't hit 600 conventional. Or sumo 800 and not be able to bench 275.... Thats who this video is directed to. And yes, there are a few guys who fall under that category
Some people benefit more from it than others. It still undeniably gives you a leverage advantage.
@@CigEconomy yes for sure
If you messed your back up on conventional this video is aimed at you. Not enough time correctly building your back, spinal erectors, lats, and intra abdominal core pressure/stability and just kept trying to yank dumb weight off the ground.
I started pulling sumo when i couldn't do conventional because I had hurt my lower back. I don't love it, but it was fun to learn and gave me a chance to heal while keeping a heavy enough pull in the rotation.
Same here, good luck man
Sumo doesn’t really help a hurt back. You should’ve lowered the weight and did more conventional reps so you build endurance.
@@TheDdty Sumo doesn’t help but conventional definitely hurts.
Same.
Is it possible you just were lifting too much weight, why not just lighten the weight and use the conventional form?
Very well thought out! I’ve always stuck to conventional variations because for me it is a lot more difficult. I’d rather develop more of my posterior chain and climb that mountain an inch at a time than do sumo for the sole purpose of lifting more weight in my commercial gym.
My UA-cam recommendations gave me a quality video from one day ago and not 5 years ago, magical
For me it took a year :'(
@@HolyPineConeFor my it took 4 years
Around 5:50 you mentioned that sumo favours a certain body type to put it simply: I don't see how that same statement doesn't apply to conventional.
You can see the difference with the myriad of different body types that can develop a competitive conventional deadlift. In strongman Heinla, Thor, Pritchett, Shaw, Caron, and Kearney are all world class deadlifters, yet have nothing in common as far as anthropomorphy. In Powerlifting, Lilliebridge, Johnson and Dan Green have all pulled 900 conventional, again with few anatomical similarities. Conventional may require different approaches, but doesn't disqualify anyone from greatness based on leverages. Sumo absolutely does.
yeah i hate pulling conventional but get along really well sumo! Not fair to just say o yeah just because you pull sumo its not impressive. Its still a heavy fucking weight and requires a lot more of the quads. love the guys content otherwise haha
Alexander Bromley I don’t see how this is a counter argument at all. You said that you aren’t built to sumo. And then you say that some people aren’t optimized to pull conventional, but still manage. Why can you not use that same logic with sumo?
@@Issvor Jesus, have you watched the video!?!?
@@OzFalchi i have. my comment is towards his argument. I don't agree that anyone can pull heavier with sumo than conventional
love it. love everything about it. this is exactly what ive been saying for years. its like you're in my head. great video.
Alex,
I just found your channel randomly and I am impressed with the knowledge and presentation! The first thoughts that came to my mind. I pull more sumo but I train conventional more as it targets my weaknesses (low back), so when I go back to sumo it feels way easier + my lower back got stronger and I hit some type of PR either a 1 RM or a rep PR. Same thing with bench press, I train lots of close grip to create a larger ROM and my triceps are a weakness (my arms in general suck), so when I go back to a wider grip (mine is pinky fingers inside rings), it feels way easier + my triceps got stronger. I have good leverages for sumo (deadlifts in general), as I am shorter with longer arms.
To everyone else who is interested in training. If you have a coach who does not identify your weakness and program specifically to help bring them up, get a new coach. Stop making training easier all the time. Be strong in different environments, as this will expose weaknesses and help develop overall strength in the long run. Would you rather be strong only at sumo deadlifts OR would you rather be strong at sumo, conventional, deficits, block pulls, etc. Take it a step forward with strongman training, picking up awkward objects in awkward environments. Choose the latter! Alex, thank you for the video. Love your channel man! Appreciate the content!
-Logan
Sumo in strictest form, as drawn in this video, is basically a squat pattern. It focuses more on Quads and glutes but less stressful for spine and back due to upright position. Good alternative for squats if squat racks are not an option for some reason.
However, if feet are just outside of shoulders and back is more like horizontal at the start, narrow sumo as they say, it is more towards conventional deadlift although not exactly that. It is good for people who have very long femurs and quite small torso. They can get into conventional deadlift type starting position that is not possible otherwise in typical conventional set up without using block or elevation. I would call it as wide stance conventional deadlift.
I have quite a weird setup where I alternate sumo and conventional week by week. Routine means i only deadlift once a week so each style falls every other week. This video will definitely give me a think about how my routine is currently. I never really feel conventional in my back so it has never went on a back day for me, but I could maybe switch up my routine to better develop the muscles that conventional builds
i wish i had the muscle those drawings have lol
Start today.
Fuckin Christmas hams on that conventional dl drawing
100% agree. I’ll be the first to admit that I lifted sumo in competition, BECAUSE it gave me better leverage/heavier pulls. And I 100% agree that for development purposes, you should pull much more conventional. Idk why anyone would give you hate for this video, even if they are big fans of pulling sumo.
100% agree with your philosophies in this one!
I try to mirror my squat stance while deadlifting. Kinda in between a sumo and standard. It feels good and transfers great to either lift imo. I HATE that SUPER arch 2" bench btw. We need a range of motion standard on the bench for sure.
I think a flat foot positioning would help, but am not sure of any other way to do it. What would you propose? For example a 8" rom minimum would discriminate against people extremely genetically gifted in the lift and would be near impossible to enforce.
The problem with a range of motion standard is what if someone is 3 or 4 foot thick with average or shorter arms.
Sean Noriega’s bench is cringe lol
Thank you, the way you explained this was helpful.
I have a herniated disc but I pull conventional. During the MRI, the doctor mentioned how small my erector muscles were and mentioned the benefit of a strong core for back health. So I first started with walking, then bird dogs, them roman chair static holds, then moved onto light romanian deadlifts, then with conventional deadlift with, and I am now pulling 345 for 3 sets of 10 a few months in and I still have a lot of room to grow. I think I can hit 405 for 10 in 3 or 4 months based on my current progress. Not to mention my back pain has reduced significantly.
I used to say the same thing until I tried it and had less pain, better form, more nuetral spine. I think it just depends on how your made
@@jakerichards8344 why is it lazy to pull sumo??up to the individual-and its accepted at meets
I agree with you i used to have alot of pack pain, but when I switched to sumo that went away and now I havent had any Back pain in the past year
I’ve never had any back pain from pulling conventional, but it certainly puts less pressure on the spine to pull sumo.
Only people that haven't had a disc herniation/buldge would shit on sumo like that. Sumo allows you to work deads with out irritating the spine so much and somewhat work those associated muscles. I'm sure RDLS in addition to lower weighted conventionals could help but a lot of people build up sumos and switch back over to conventional once the spine issues are corrected. I'll agree they're not the same lift in a competitive setting tho.
@@burlhorse61 Don't be lazy. It's easier.
my conventional deadlift is actually stronger than my sumo, however, i favor sumo because it’s easier on my back (i have herniated disks)
Same here, I do sumo pretty much as squat accessory.
May i knew, how did you cured that herniated disk? Im herniated my disk last week
Just found your channel, as I am trying to get motivated to compete again! I think another issue that people forget is that Oly lifting is much more explosive and dynamic, therefore the "rules" of engagement are pretty much the same for all competitors. In other words, you have to complete the lifts the same way....the rules are designed to allow for variations in set-up and technique (split versus squat in the clean and jerk) but at the end of the day, you can't "fudge" the rules....you have to lock out your elbows and you have to complete the lift accordingly. Powerlifting, is actually strength training.....no power so to speak by definition. This allows various techniques that are designed to "leverage" the lift by any means possible, based on as you mention, limb length, etc.. To make powerlifting like Oly lifting, you would have to have rules that would not allow for wider stances, various grips and equipment. Love your channel by the way!
Great content! As always!
I agree with a lot of the sentiment in this video. However, I can't discount the fact that extremely strong sumo pullers also tend to be very strong conventional pullers. 800 lb sumo pullers can usually still pull 650, 700, 750 lbs conventional.
"800 lb sumo pullers can usually still pull 650, 700, 750 lbs conventional."
You've discovered the point of the video. Sumo is cheating.
And we can't ignore that many people are able to lift 100lbs more sumo than conventional. And the ones who can't are usually too big to get into a good position, or they have odd proportions.
@@nickcorona3966 lol
@@nickcorona3966 cheating "act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage."
I get that people don't like it or don't count the lift in their head out of own opinions but to say its cheating that's not an opinion that's just wrong :D.
You literally just proved why sumo is hated
Dude do you draw the stuff on the whiteboard? Because those are really freaking detailed lol
It's nice to see someone that shares my opinion on the matter. There is nothing wrong with sumo as an excercise, but if you go to the competition, everyone should do the same lift, and sumo is much more beneficial for one body proportions over other than conventional, therefore I find it not really a good option for a competetive event.
It's also a different lift. It's like I would ask to perform decline bench press, because my arching is awful, so I could compasate it with a different lift. I could also ask for neutral grip bar, so middle part of my arm doesn't hurt.
My wish for powerlifting is to require conventional deadlift, apply safety measures for squat (rack or monolifts, so competitors don't have to rely on spotters that won't save you if something goes terribly wrong) and do something about insane arching/wide grip for a bench press or even change it to OHP.
Love your work, man. I joined your forum, you have some good discussions going on there.
Thank you! People get shit on for saying this, but I totally agree.
when I log in to my account on the forum this text shows "Sorry! You don't have permission to perform this action." and I cant do/read anything. Why? :(
Goatbearman -yeah me to man
I was attempting to add a paywall for a separate section of the forum and I think I goofed it up. I removed it and I'm able to access it incognito mode, not logged in, but I haven't seen updates on the forum. Please let me know if the problem persists!
Alexander Bromley I just gave it a try on my phone, logged off it works but logged in to my account it still shows the same text
@@goatbearman514 Try one more time, I think I fixed it. Sorry for this guys!
@@AlexanderBromley It works for me now. Thank you, I really like the forum!
100% agree! Thanks for posting.
Yes! Great illustrations!!
What about deadlifting with a Semi-Sumo/Squat stance or even a "frog" stance?
If it's wider than your shoulders, than it's a sumo stance. So, a "semi-sumo" is fine.
U also have to consider that conventional is harder for some people. It’s no longer just strength it’s also proportions like u said. Long legs get in the way of the bar
Ruben Zepeda get smaller ones
RunAsAdministrator lmao
What do you think of using sumo deadlifts with a suboptimal technique in regards to lifting the most amount of weight but targeting the quads more, asking because quarantine lol I have a barbell and weights but no squat rack and my clean is too weak to do a significant amount of weight on front squats is it worth it or should I stick with lunges and bulgarian squats?
I could not agree with this more. 100% absolutely on-point.
I actually like to train both conventional and sumo and I pull slightly more conventional. I actually have a unique benefit I gained from sumo. I was feeling some pain in my left hip trying to pull sumo. I originally just wrote off sumo and stopped doing it. I decided I didn't want to be limited and not have the sumo option so I put in months of working on hip mobility for ~5 minutes warming up. I can pull sumo pain-free now and I feel more comfortable in the bottom of the squat.
recently switching over from olympic lifting to powerlifting and this has been a big mental struggle for me. I'm built for conventional but starting adding in sumo to try as an accessory. I've always felt it was cheating and way easier and so far the training has proved that. I totally agree with your opinion though
Yeah I'm nearly at my conventional max with sumo only after 1 month. Sumo is definitely cheating.
I use the sumo deadlift to activate my glutes before I back squat... As I have a quad dominant squat... I found this helps me anyway...
I agree that It's great for waking the glutes up!
Genius!!! Gonna definetly try that
This video hits at the crucial point that many who say that they are doing sumo aren’t actually. Like you’ve pointed out, in a sumo stance your back is upright. This is a key point in the sumo. Not just that the knees and and legs are opened up and the arms are between the legs. Many who do sumo end up with their back bent forward, which kind of defeats the purpose of the movement. At that point it just becomes a wide stance conventional deadlift.
Thank you for this and makes sense. I think Ive found a middle ground by positioning my arms outside my legs (which seems to reduce back rounding), but its still functionally a conventional deadlift
Whats your opinion on ed coan’s deadlift style do you think its fine and within the limits of what is considered a developmental exercise or do you believe it is beyond what you consider conventional and if so why?
You also stated that you don't want to see people take their most advantageous position just to make it easier... so why don't you pull in sumo because it's harder and therefore more impressive than conventional for you? Aside from this I do agree they are vastly different movements so it's a tough situation.
TheReptilehumon I think because, as he touched upon in the video, conventional is much better from a strength development standpoint. For him there’s no point. Not only is his body not made well for sumo, it doesn’t do as much for strength building either.
There's no point. And, AS HE SAID IN THE VIDEO, his hips doesn't allow him in the sumo stance.
My point isnt to arbitrarily do what's hardest, it's to do what's best developmentally. Your point would fly if I was super advantaged conventional and garbage sumo.... alas my leverages are fucked all the way around. My training revolves around increasing my deadlift for Strongman. I would happily pull sumo as an accessory, but my hips dont allow it and my glutes are over developed anyways.
I literally only do sumo because it feels more natural to me then conventional.
No disrespect but how??? There’s no power in your stance with sumo. Literally if you push your feet and have someone push your going to fall, aka there’s no base.
@@TheDdty it sounds to me like you lack the ability to setup in sumo properly.
got issues with my lower back-pulling conventional-so changed to sumo.much better on my lower back
@@JediNiyte if you have long legs, it can be quite difficult to maintain a neutral spine on a conventional. I do a lot of training in conventional, for the back building benefits, but I look like I’m striking some weird ass yoga pose with my feet real close together, and my knees and toes pointing way out. I can pull respectable numbers like that, but no way would I ever do it in competition if sumo is allowed.
@@JediNiyte it’s weird how it works. I’m 3” taller than my oldest brother, but he has a taller torso than me, where I got longer legs and arms. Just like him and I both have to watch our diets like hawks, or we will be in the 300+ club in a blink, where the middle brother can eat like every meal is his last before his execution, and stays skinny. LOL. You gotta do what’s best for you. There’s no rule book that says you have to lift conventional.
I'm an old broken down ex half ass lifter. When I first started lifting in the 70s their was still questions as to whether or not sumo pulling should be allowed. Larry Pacifico was strongly in favor of banning it. Just a bit of trivia now but the argument was that Power Lifting was a test of overall body strength.
Very informative!
Nice video!
Regards
Exactly how I feel on all points. I started pulling sumo because I'm going to start competing but it just felt like I was wussing out. Conventional makes me feel powerful, there is no other lift that gives me the feeling of a conventional deadlift. There is a sense of pride I have attached to that lift, it's taught me a lot about myself. If it stalls one of these days or I get hungry for a record that I won't achieve with conventional, I'm not against considering sumo in the future. For now I want the strongest body I can possibly get which is also why I keep high bar squats and narrow bench in my training. I also keep working on my arch (finally got a baby arch) because I have long arms and I need it in order to be slightly competitive against these females that move the bar 2 inches. No disrespect to sumo pullers, most everyone I know pulls sumo, and I'm excited when they hit PRs and win meets. It's just not the same as conventional, period.
Sumo, Wide(Sumo) squats, and wide benches are attempts to reduce range of motion and 'game' the entire point of the core lifts. I feel like the core lifts done as described in texts like SS, do translate to regular life. If you can pull conventional heavy, you can pick up heavy stones and heavy farmers. Super wide activities don't translate to other athletics. Louie Simmons talks about how lots of athletes from sports come to him, but no one he trains goes into (ball) sports, and I think that's significant.
Powerlifting is about power tho, not about wattage. The range should absolutely matter less than the weight
This is just false. Sumo has a very big carry over to real life and is even better as you can pick up objects almost right under you than in front of you
Pretty sure building up quads, glutes, and upper back while saving your spine has carry over to everything. So sumos have their time and place. Theyre not useless and have no carry over
So ur saying my sumo deadlift with bumper plates, deadlift bar and straps with my feet almost touching the plates and 2 inch rom doesnt count?
I'm a rower mainly, so my low back and posterior chain are already constantly fatigued. I pull sumo because I find conventional to interfere with my main sport. I'm not built to pull sumo, but when I compete in powerlifting I still choose to pull sumo since I train it 8 months of the year for rowing.
Outside of powerlifting where you'd probably want to find the leverages you can lift the most weight with regardless of anything, a sumo dl doesn't have to be *that* much of a "squat" movement, it only takes your knees to be outside of your elbows for it to be a sumo dl, and unless it's an exaggeration like the one drawn on the board, it's still very much a hinge, just with somewhat less lower back involvement, how much less depending on the feet width of course. What you've drawn is an abomination to me, but I get it if they use it in powerlifting...
I hate sumo. The idea of a sumo not being a feat of strength is something I've never thought of before, but I agree 100%. I do, however, think that a few months of sumo pulls in the personally defined off-season helps the conventional. With the caveat that good mornings or stiff legs are in the mix. I pulled my first ever 600 conventional dead after a block of sumos and I adopted the pushing the feet apart aspect to conventionals which has helped pushing the hips through. Love/hate relationship.
When I came back to conventional from doing sumos I started turning out my toes a bit to get more glute activation, so I agree
Ian Driscoll yeah I personally train conventional because if I can max high in conventional, my sumo will go up. If it's allowed in competition then I'm going to do what I can to win, as long as it's in the rules. I don't train sumo unless I wanna get some technique in or if my low back is feeling fatigued.
Awesome vids by the way mate !
Quality information, as always
As a powerlifter who's squat is much more impressive than his deadlift, my posterior chain is fried by the time deadlifts come around. I deadlift sumo. I do all my accessories conventional though. Conventional deadlifts are hard af to recover from.
Conventional is very hard to recover from, straight facts bro
So program it better. Not doing something because it hits too hard? That's just dumb. How about don't deadlift the same day you squat? Add more dead accessory volume to make your dead more impressive. You're effectively saying you're too tired to train deads after squats so you just do a squat accessory instead
If you ever want to see how big of a difference the bar knurling makes on your grip, pull sumo heavy with a narrow grip on the smooth center of the bar.
I don't think I would lock out that close.
Even chalk is just a huge help on grip
FINALLY! Couldn't agree more with you man. Well said once again
What about using a hex bar? Would that be considered closer to a normal deadlift or a sumo? Considering the bar path being closer to the center of the body
I came to this same realization after doing sumo for years .Conventional is much better for overall strength.The speed off the ground in Conventional feels awesome too. Saw a video of a guy barely squating to parallel, benching with such a contorted arch he lifted the bar 2 inches,then super wide stance sumo. LMAO. He was the absolute champion of fake strength.He defined what I don't want to be as a strength enthusiast! lol
You mean Sean Noriega
@@oper6837 Ilia Marichev.But yeah Sean Noriega does exactly the same... very wide sqaut stance and Sumo DL. 2 to 3 inch Bench.The only difference is Noriega makes a 2 inch bench look like his benching further by pushing his chest down during the lift but the actual bar path length is still 2 to 3 inches .lol Malichev starts at 2;14 ua-cam.com/video/bQcbD-revqI/v-deo.html
@@oper6837 Ilia Marichev.but yeah Noriega does the same wide stance Squat and DL. benches 2 to 3 inches only difference is Noriega pushes his chest down during the lift creating an illusion that the bar moved more than 2 to 3 inches lol Marichev 2:14 ua-cam.com/video/bQcbD-revqI/v-deo.html
lol just shut tf up
Couldn’t you make the same argument about the squat? There are some videos on UA-cam with Powerlifters squatting big numbers with their feet so wide they look like the barely move
This.
You are talking about that westside shit. No raw powerlifter squats like thag
@Anthony Grigoryan You word that as if sumo deadlifts are easy? I have yet seen someone who can sumo deadlift 600-700 pounds who can't also conventional deadlift 550-650lbs?
Great video thanks mate
100% Agree with you.
Check out Greg Nuckols Hinge/ Squat continuum. Also, what's your take on the trap bar deadlift?
We’ve found our that Sumo is a great option for combat athletes due to the anterior dominant position they’re in most of the time.
sources ?
@@NazarioHerrerasJourney As you can see he started his comment with " we've found" implying that this is anecdotal evidence
Honestly, I agree with your assessment and personal opinion on sumo. I have a friend who is totally built for sumo and can out pull me by 100lbs..yet, I take the cake on the other 2 lifts. They're constantly informing me of their progress with the sumo pull but in my mind because they're built for this lift; they've simply become a one trick pony and I'm no longer interested or impressed. Sure I'm happy for them but humble bragging over something that you're naturally good at turns me off, like let's see that bench go up where I know you're struggling to add pounds to the bar, show me how your squat or conventional pull goes up and consider me impressed. Fighting for a lift you know you're not built to do imo shows to me that you're truly dedicated to the craft and that you aren't taking the easier, far more travelled road.. enjoy all of your videos sir, thank you for the quality content and the opinions that you openly share.
Yeah, agreed 100%
The total is what talks
@@andrecancilla4901 too bad theirs sucks due to being that one trick pony lol
U shitting on my poverty bench homie?
this.
As a conventional puller, should I ever program sumo pulls for accessory or just forget them? Like you my hips are forward so can't really even get to a good sumo position. So I just answered my own question. LoL.
I agree with pretty much everything you said, sumo and conventional are not the same. But both movements do achieve the goal of picking a bar off the ground and locking it out which is why i think it's fine that you're allowed to do either in powerlifting. While different they achieve the same result albiet in a different position.
In no other strength sport is having your feet 4' apart considered 'locked out'. Not in weightlifting, not in strongman (and strongman allows everything)
To summarize... Sumo is a different movement
Lol if that makes you feel better about yourself
@@devthegod298 do you pull sumo?
@@devthegod298 hahs
To make a point often missed in the sport of powerlifting. It's all about leverage no matter what those leverages are. So to discriminate on a Sumo is no different than discriminating on a wide stance squat. The argument is mute but people get butt hurt because THEY feel the person is "cheating" well they can say the same about that person on a different lift. If the goal is lifting a weight from point A to Z that should be the test and not the form. If you take out sumo then you might as well make all lifts one standard. If not, people can't complain. We are talking hand placement, bar placement, etc.
If that's true, Hack squats would be allowed for powerlifitng deadlifts.
@@johnwest6083 Uh nah bro. Show me a hack squat with a barbell. You way off topic.
@@alongzowitcher1685 ua-cam.com/video/atcJyMVb0S8/v-deo.html
Bar starts on the ground and is locked out standing straight up. It's just foot positioning, no?
Sumo deadlift should he called sumo squat, not deadlift. It's a squat loaded from the ground. A different exercise entirely. Just like a back squat compared to a conventional.
@@johnwest6083 No it can't be called a sumo squat because the load is on the ground hence the term DEAD WEIGHT. You can call a wide stance squat a sumo squat but that's merely semantics in naming. Understand how loading works before commenting .
@@alongzowitcher1685 Is a Hack "squat" ok in power lifting? Hack squats are loaded from the ground, that is the entire point of my comment. You cant argue an exercise doesnt exist when it does lmao.
ı personally use an Ed Coan style sumo deadlift because my hips are almost wider than my clavicles. If ı try to get in conventional stance my arms just end up not perpendicular to bar which increases my ROM and feels awkward on my biceps when using mixed grip. I think if you dont spread your legs really far out there is not much o a difference to be honest. But really wide stance sumo? i also feel like it's not a good posterior chain movement. It can be benefical though if you are a sprinter or a vertical jumper or sth like that because you really need to activate your quads to get the bar off the ground.
This is why i like to watch many different channels because many peope are saying the conplete opposite when comparing lifts. Matt wenning preaches when you first start out he recommends you should pull sumo for a year before touching conventional because it targets the glutes amd builds the hips. Many peope have said there isnt much transfer from conventional to sumo but there is vice versa, and sumo also contributes more to squatting. It is also very irritating to hear people say the complete opposite because than you have so many people wondeing where to turn. Should i focus here or should i go with this lift instead to reach my goals. I personally know that sumo has caused my conventional to rise quite significantly but havent really notice much the other way around. I dont think either should be avoided. Just curious to hear others take on this?
Couldn’t agree more. Sumo is the deadlifting equivalent to CrossFit pull-ups. BTW - I met you in the taco line at the Santa Monica Arnold. Good show!
I remember! Sorry if I was short, that's never happened and it took me by surprise!
Alexander Bromley usually taller, eh? I’m a grower myself
TacVent LLC not quite. Kipping is just trash for development. Sumo is arguably safer and is still a good developmental and training exercize.
I wasn’t going so far as to call Sumo trash, just illustrating that it is as close to conventional as kipping is to real pull-ups. Sumo does, of course, have its benefits. It is cringeworthy, however, seeing people slam the weight down and celebrate like “Archie Gimmel scored against Holland in 1978” after having moved the weight a whole three inches.
I pull sumo because I'd rather tear a hamstring than throw out my back
A.k.a. I am a woman.
@@Ironborne lol ok bro 🤣🤣
I have always ended up tweaking my back far more with conventional than sumo. I also have sort of short arms relative to my body, so sumo works for me. Because when I line up for conventional, my set up is not much different than for a SLDL.
Hi sir. Does lifting sumo deadlift exclusively increases the conventional?
sumo, in companions, is fine in my opinion. it's like people like how high bar squat and people like a low bar squat, even though ones objectively better than the other
Sumo Deads are hard. They test the glutes bigtime off the ground.
I heard everyone say "sumo is too easy" then I tried them myself. I guess I don't have the leverages because I couldn't get anywhere near my max conventional weight doing sumo.
I love this video thank you.
If you are training more like a bodybuilder with reps generally in the 8-20 range, is it okay to have 7 or 8 week mesocycles. Juggernaut recommends up to 6 weeks but they are from a powerlifting, weightlifter perspective.
I feel more comfortable pulling sumo, but haven't touched it for almost half a year. I get stronger lifting only conventional and rumanian and recently tested my sumo strength and yeah, it's cheating lol
I have the build to do sumo, and I just won’t do it. Hate that people pull 700 when they can’t do 500 conventional.
Thank you for making this video. Agreed 100%
Pull sumo let me know if it’s higher than your conventional
Just so you have more feedback:
When I conventional deadlift, the bar sits on top of my junk. Sumo, the bar is basically a chair for my weiner. My short arms put me in a bad position for conventional deadlift, it's physically impossible for me to grab the bar and have a straight back. My hips naturally point my feet out as well, compounding the issue.
When I sumo lift, I'm in almost the exact same position as your conventional drawing, except I don't look as aesthetic. Long torso, short arms is a bummer.
I have this exact same issue. Not really built for deadlifts period but I do better with sumo.
People hate sumo because people that have never tried sumo thinks it’s easier and that anyone that does it will automatically pull more than they will conventionally
Weird, because that's 100% opposite of what I said here
Alexander Bromley i wasnt referring to you, I probably should have specified, i actually agree with everything you said for the most part. I was referring to the general population of the “sumo is cheating” crowd on the internet.
@@Jmack7861 Oooo, gotcha. Apologies for my uppity response. Yeah, I won't lie, even with people who agree with my premise, there is a lot of misinformation about the differences.
Ed coan pulled conventional and sumo your argument is invalid
Which argument and why.
@@AlexanderBromley that sumo is "cheating" and you "roll your eyes" when people break records using the sumo technique
@@mattheffernan4854 those were my opinions, not arguments. Which arguments were invalid
I believe anyone would be hard pressed to find a conventional puller that also cant pull close to that max while pulling sumo. Leverages are leverages not matter the lift.
@@davidwoodie6437 I agree 100%. A sumo puller wouldn't be able to pull as much conventional vice versa, it's all about individual strengths and leverages. I know a few conventional pullers that feel awkward and unstable pulling sumo. Some don't even have the hip mobility to get into the wide stance lol. There is also plenty of research that suggests the demands of sumo and conventional are virtually the same.
Bringing the heat!
How about conventional deadlifts using the trap bar? Still getting all same benefits as using the barbell?
Sumo is technically much more difficult than conventional. Id say I have great leverages for the sumo DL and in the set up, pushing my knees out and feet out I feel my hamstrings and glutes activate so much they feel like they are going to explode lol. More-so, the amount of hip strength you need to lock out and finish the lift is pretty impressive and took me a while to master. I think there are people built for conventional and people built for sumo, those built for conventional cant pull much with sumo and visa versa. Ill never understand the hate for sumo, it just doesnt make sense.
I operate off of a couple of assumptions that might make my stance more clear. One is that they are fundamentally different and shouldn't be contested together, which so far no one has even attempted to argue. Two is that there isn't a 'good conventional/bad sumo' set of leverages, just better or worse for deads in general. Those who are better at conventional (I'm in that camp) have more years of practice, more skill, and more muscular development around the movement; even with a leverage disadvantage, you are best how you train. Saying 'sumo is easier' is silly, it still requires years of specific practice. But potential to pull big across the population is so much higher that contesting them together seems obviously silly.
@@AlexanderBromley To argue your first claim, many EEG studies show that muscular activation for sumo vs conv are almost the same. The exception being the vastus lateralis/medialis showing about 10% more activation in the sumo and conversely, roughly 10% greater activation in the spinal erectors with conv deads. This study is by Greg Nuckols on his "Stronger by science" page. So, with such similarities in muscle activation, why shouldnt they be treated the same? I agree with you that, you are better how you train. As for leverages, it would seem, statistically that the higher the weight class the lifter, the more likely the lifter will pull conv, and visa versa with lower weight classes, ergo more sumo deads being pulled. It would seem that larger bodies are geared towards the conv dead and not the sumo. Also Id have to add in the basic "pro" sumo arguments being hip structure and how the femur connects with the hip joint...
The hate is because the bar moves about 4 inches
@@markdavis6933 they shouldn't be in the same contest,,,,, because big Z says so
Nice video! I am on a powerlifting team and so is my brother. We where always neck to neck in all lifts. A year ago the started sumo and now has a sumo pr of 700. I have a conv pr of 660 and on top of that it's very uncomfortable for me to go in a sumo stance. I loved the non stop competition that we have for over 6 years, but now i see his sumo lifts as a totally separate excercise. I measured my distance pulled between conv and sumo for shits and giggles and it was a 7.5 inch difference, now everyone tells me to do sumo 🤬🤬. It's always the same argument "if benchers can arch and have 2 in range motion, then sumo is equal to conv due to rules". 2 separate excercises, not a fair way to compare strength between athletes. I think powerlifting needs to choose just conv and have a limit on feet width based on your shoulder width or something. Also I think there should be a limit on bench bar gripth and arch, like have a block or something and see if it slides under your arch. Sorry for the rant, but I'm planning on doing strongman, where no one can contest deadlift variations
There is a reason all time world record lifts aren't 2 inch benches nor 12 inch sumo lifts. Kiril's bench is beautiful and smooth. Benedict's deadlift is a pure demonstration of strength, not how his leverages help him.. and etc
Dan Green said it best in his article West of Westside. "I damn sure wasn’t going to arch my way to a 600 bench. I realized that.... technique was pretty worthless if I didn’t get A LOT stronger.
There's something I don't get with the sumo stance which no one seems to adress, so I figure I should just ask. I've seen several videos about isometrics don't grow the muscles as much as taking the muscle through full rom, especially contraction from lengthened position. You stated that the glutes start in a shortened position in sumo, when you then stand up, the glutes don't lengthen. So they're not going through full rom. So how are sumo moves better for glutes than a narrower stance?
To make it completely practical, if u apply deadlift in daily life, the goal is to get the barbell or a heavy load from a certain height level to another height level-u need to lift it high enough for this practical reason, which the conventional allows u to do so while sumo won’t allow u to accomplish this by any means unless u can stand up straight while holding the bar from that lockout position
I agree with that general premise; I don't see the feet 48" apart as a viable 'finish' to a feat of strength.