"What Are Powerlifters DOING?" - Response to Zack Telander, AtlasPowerShrugged and Jonnie Candito
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2022
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This was a wonderful surprise. You're a very eloquent speaker with the nuance to boot. Great video and I appreciate the shout out!
Real recognize real
You're too kind. I appreciate your content and commentary!
@@AlexanderBromley 3 of my favourite dudes in one place :D
When you said that 500 was such a low standard to hit for the Dead….. I felt that. 😢
Right, some of us killed ourselves to get that low standard 😂😂😂
Yeah, that hurt 😂
It's not bad for a person that regularly goes to the gym, but if we're talking about people that compete in strongman or powerlifting, it's pretty low.
@@TheMulalleyI mean, a 5 plate deadlift is a fantastic feat for a "regular" person but still a lowbar for someone aiming for a career in it.
Same here brother. Pulled 495 conventional several days ago at ~208 lbs (and nearly 61 yrs) and was patting myself on the back. Bromley brought me back down to earth :)
At least there's John Haack doing high bar squat, moderate grip bench, and conventional deadlift for ATWR.
Thanks for the shout out!, "athlete fantasy camp!" was an awesome line. As is "the blind positivity that exists in powerlifting" they've taken the "anyone's welcome to compete even if you just started lifting 6 months ago and for all intents and purposes are DYEL" to an absurd extreme and it has impacted the ability to give and receive criticism in the subculture.
Glad you liked my car analogy, and it worked a lot better with your concrete examples of the powerlifts actually being used as metrics in more serious sports.
Athlete fantasy camp is a terrible take. Basketball, baseball, football, swimming, track and field, every sport in the modern world is literally pay to play in any competitive sense outside of school sponsored or professional levels. The mediocre are the loudest for some reason in barbell sports. You don’t see the culture of sport shifted by someone who didn’t play pro or the college level with any other sport. What is this?
@@kibskibs498 What is your point? Other sports have rule changes too when glaring flaws are exposed. The javelin throw in track banner a horizontal spinning throw because they deemed it too dangerous for many people even if a few mastered it. Your point doesn't make any sense
Powerlifting's biggest problem is that it's a boring sport from a spectator's perspective and dealing with the arch and sum issues won't fix it. USSF/Strengthlifting bans sumo deadlifts and replaced the bench with OHP. Not only did lifters start to incorporate massive back leans similar to bench arches, but those meets still go on for hours and are still boring to watch.
>implying rippletoes sport is real
Excessive OHP arch can be dangerous and still requires the same range of motion as any other OHP, it just puts you in a more advantageous position to press. I have much less of a problem with it then the bench arch which in most cases isn't dangerous (and therefore no risk required for reward) and significantly reduces the range of motion. That said, I don't think replacing benching with pressing is the answer.
Look at the American Pro, or even Raw Nats crowd turnout and live stream numbers and then rethink what you just wrote
@@thepastrecedes1635 It's as real as the all the random powerlifting federations that exist and more respectable than most.
Frankly, powerlifting is for competitors and it should stay this way. Spectators are usually other powerlifters.
I don't like sumo, but I think the noodle bars are by far the bigger issue. If every sumo puller had to use a stiff bar, I think it would solve most of the problem. (I still don't like reducing the ROM of my favourite lift.)
True. Ipf sumo isn't that far from conventional with stiff bars. Especially in the heavier weight classes
True....pete rubish made a similar comment
yk it's funny that IPF lifters are the ones who make the bench 0 rom but it's the untested lifters doing super wide sumo deadlifts with the kabuki deadlift bar. The fact that 400kg on a stiff bar is about as impressive as 1000 pounds on a deadlift bar now is kinda absurd.
Definitely agreed. Every single one of these dodgy ROM sumo pull clips are on a bendy bar, and most of them are using straps and uncalibrated thick plates too, not even in competition.
@@jettfuelfitness the stiff bar should be the standard in all federations. Even a squat bar is useless for most people because if you're not a giant with bad shoulder mobility the squat bar will whip more than a stiff bar.
I made the same comment on the Zack Telander video. Powerlifting has jumped the shark multiple times. I entered my first competition in 1992 and I was very confused by the gear, which, at the time, included: a single ply polyester Inzer Blast shirt, that I could get 30lbs out of, and a similar style squat suit with similar carryover. (I don't remember many deadlift suits, because we used our squat suit or pulled raw.) Some really good technicians could get 40 to 50lbs out of a shirt and/or suit and maybe 20lbs using it for the deadlift. Looking back, it was pretty dumb, but it got ridiculously dumb. In roughly 2003, I saw a guy that couldn't raw bench 405lbs, perform a bench of over 600lbs in an open back, denim shirt. The squats were even worse. In our defense, there was no Raw Powerlifting and no one wanted to give up the advantage to a competitor. The argument was: "geared lifting is more technical". However, the sport was designed to be, far and away, more a test of strength than technical mastery. I'm not saying technique isn't important, but there are much more technique driven endeavors we can watch or compete in that don't test strength as the primary athletic quality. Also, raw is so much cheaper, easier (barrier to entry wise) and more relatable than geared lifted. At least, it was until these anthropometric outliers and weird specialty bars entered the scene. I don't know what the solution is, but I would be in favor of a grip width formula and, maybe, requiring the hands to be placed on the bar beyond the outer edge of the foot for deadlifts. Eliminating all upper thoracic arching would just be too rough on the shoulders.
As much beef that people have with crossfit, one thing cant be denied. It revolutionized the fitness industry. The current popularity of American Olympic lifting, powerlifting, and strongman is all due to crossfit.
Crossfit is actually entertaining to watch
I think the extreme cases of sumo pullers with insane Deadlifts is more to do with Kabuki-style bars with an insane bend: these guys would lose 100-200 lbs to their pulls if they did them on a standardized stiff bar: nobody ever went past 400kg in the IPF and I think the bar is a bigger cause than the gear. It's even more important for sumo pullers since a narrower grip means the bar will bend more that on a wider grip
As for the bench arch, what do you think about requiring an elbow angle at the bottom? The standard of the squat is to have horizontal quads, it might partially solve the problem to require the triceps to be horizontal on the bottom of the lift as well as touching the chest?
what if someone has a big barrel chest and short arms and cant bring there arms down to make their tris parallel
@@bigmill5628 then they have to narrow their grip. It would be such a rare situation though that it's hardly worth worrying that much over
100% agree with the deadlifts, and need for stiff bars in all comps.
Don’t agree with the bench. It’s not a good solution because there is such a variance in peoples limb lengths, measurements, etc. As well as it’s be very difficult to judge. They’d have to have another two judges on top of the three they already have to try and gauge it. Just not viable.
I personally like freakied’s solution, which is to have the lifter unrack themselves with their butt on the bench, and rerack themselves. This would severely limit the kind of arches people can get into.
The guys in the IPF are still juicing, just a little bit less stuff...
@@danoeb-g418 As rare as tiny lifters who can contort themselves to get giant arches and are breaking all of these world records?
Great video Bromley. Sumo deadlift and zero range of motion bench are a problem. I got into powerlifiting because i wanted to develop and display strength not to maximize joint mobility and lie to myself that that represents strength.
Do sumo then and maximize bench? Or stay mediocre. I don’t understand this debate. Adapt or get left behind. That’s how every sport in the history of sports exists
@@kibskibs498 did you even watch the video??? The whole point Bromley is making is that rules to any sport (not just powerlifting) evolve with time to keep the sport relivant. Id rather give up powetlifting all together than sacrifice actual strength to specialize low range of motion bench and sumo deadlift, (like Bromely was saying in the video). The debate is simple, is powerlifting going to adapt its rules (like every single other sport does over time), and focus on its soul which is strength development, or will it not change anything and we watch people celebrate moving a bar 1/2 inch ?
@@reggie7716 I did. The NFL and NBA’s rule changes made a generation of players get left behind as they went faster, and favored shooting over post play. Old school fans and players leave the sport, but the new generation have a new appeal so they sport grows in the future. At the end of the day, Bromley and our generation are going to get to left behind and the sport will still grow. The idea that this sport will never grow isn’t true. Powerlifting has exploded in the past few years even with the rise of sumo with DL bars and super ROM bench. Purists, much like basketball purists, are just left behind. It’s the sad truth
@@kibskibs498 you could be right. I love powerlifting, but its because it is/was a sport that helped me focus on strength development. I'll leave the sport after i do a few more meets if it is going to be more a display of joint mobility than strength, it will be counter to my goal of trying to maximize stregth at that point.
Do strongman or weightlifting, they are real sports
One of the famous ipf athletes thepanash came with a brilliant rule. The bench press should have minimal rom like the squat does. You can set your grip whatever you want, but your outer elbow should be lower than the shoulder line when you rest the bar on the chest. I think it's the best possible solution.
But are there no guys with very big chests and short arms that are physically unable to put their elbows below their shoulder line while benching? If yes, should they be banned for benching? 🤔
@@tatache5971 they have to use a narrower grip then, problem solved
To be fair, the 485 deadlift is an older video. I believe he recently did a 600 conventional deadlift.
Miss you Alex! Wish we were back at empire but glad to see your still doing good!
-Ronnie
Within a week of finding this channel, it has become my go to channel for more experiential, less experimental strength advice.
“500 is such a low bar…it’s such a low standard to hit”
Damn…….. I feel like shit now lol
We're all gonna make it bruv
Most people aren't enhanced, it's all good man, just continue at a pace that fits your lifestyle.
Bruh I got LIT UP on Reddit saying sumo is easier than conventional bad day lol
Sumo white knights of Reddit, every single time lol
@@marshalpulls6428 dude it was hilarious how offended they were I told them to check themselves because how defensive they were and said Alex is just another UA-camr and doesn’t know any better then themselves lol!
If it’s so easy why don’t you switch to it
@@ixbleauxi4633 its also easier to just sit home on the couch
Pretty much why Oly lifting is 'legit' and PL will never be anything more than a fringe sport where everybody endlessly argues over the rules.
When it comes to deadlift, I like to practice both conventional and sumo because I feel they’re synergistic with one another. However, I don’t do a super wide sumo either. I’ve even heard people call it a frog stance deadlift because of how narrow I keep my feet. I’ve tried doing a super wide sumo with more upright torso, but it just doesn’t feel right. I think because of my foot placement my sumo is slightly higher than my conventional but it isn’t by an absurd amount.
As for bench, I keep my hands inside the ring because I’ve filmed myself bench and I feel the strongest with roughly 45 degree elbow flare, forearms as perpendicular to the floor as possible, and bar touching nipple/sternum area. Most people would consider it close grip, but to me it feels “normal.” Close to me is elbows completely tucked in.
So yeah, idk how normal it is to sumo with feet relatively close and a normal bench grip to be closer than most people, but it’s where I feel strongest.
Also, do you think powerlifting should ban the low bar squat in favor of high bar only? This one isn’t talked about as much but I have seen some mention of it in powerlifting circles. I’m genuinely curious what you think.
Raw powerlifting picked up steam at the "Raw-only" meets 10 years ago. Its gonna take "Raw-only, No-Sumo" meets to make a change. Also, knee sleeves are now basically equipped lifting with the new Inzer sleeves.
The IPF actually had to make a rule years ago that you had to be able to pull your knee sleeves off & on yourself if a judge asked because lifters were buying them so small they had to have a crew to pull them on & they cut them off after their squats.
These are the same raw elitists that shit talk knee wraps.
I’ve also felt some of the newer, premium singlets & they feel real similar to the old Inzer Champion squat suit I used in ‘92-‘93. I think Greg Nuckols called them a half suit.
I’m for more choice, so maybe when I retire I’ll start my own fed with pinkies on the rings benching & conventional only DL’s. If WABDL can exist for years anything’s possible
@@twr74 I agree. I know the APF separates bare knee from sleeves. It breaks my heart to see these teenagers ALL using knee sleeves and squat shoes when they could be developing correct movement and mobility for later
Fuck it, no belt, no sleeves, high bar, larsen press, and conventional. No lie that would be more interesting to me😂
100% agree with growth of powerlifting tied to raw lifting. But I also agree with the detracting issues as well.
I’m competing in powerlifting in September right as everyone has started to (deservedly) roast powerlifting 😂😂😂
Good luck on your meet, have fun!
Have fun dude. The reality is that the vast majority of people who "roast" powerlifting are either guys who dont compete, or DYELs whove never even lifted a barbell in their life. Sure, the sport is not perfect, but thats life, its unfair, and all these "problems" are just a representarion of a tiny % of the guys competing. Meets are wholesome af and full of great people.
Don't worry! As someone who competes you are way ahead of the keyboard warrior community! Btw, if you are going to compete, do it to win..so if that means cutting the range by another inch for a kilo- do it!
things get roasted more as they grow in popularity. Go smash it on the platform dude.
LOL, same here bro. Competing in Texas for the first time in September. Good luck to yours. Hopefully the sport gets fixed.
I was thinking the punk rock analogy and then you said it. Awesome work Bromley!
If I ever get around to opening a gym I wanna host Odd Lift competitions with like 7-10 Odd lifts and rotate them every comp either using the old strongman lifts or the old odd lifts or honestly whatever is going viral online lmao
Stuff like max weighted pull-up, strict curl, zercher deadlift, steinborn squat, rolling thunder
Keep em fun keep em weird and rotate different lifts every comp but test like the same things
Leg strength, pressing, pulling, arms, grip, explosive strength
I might just be reverse engineering a strongman comp💀 but I wanna host a odd lifts competition one day🤣
Definitely reverse engineering a strongman comp, but I like it.
Yes, this would be fun and I think a much better test of strength
This is just strongman but defo makes for a fun comp :)
@@kingbrownie207 yea it is but I wanna do it with accessible equipment like barbells, dumbbells, and kettlebells so every normal gym goer can train them and try it out
@@BulkBrogan. if I were to do it, I wouldn't say what the event was until event time so that way you don't have people over specialize and it can be a little bit more of a general strength competition. Ie instead of saying that there is a steinborn squat, or a stone to overhead, just call it a static event. Sounds like fun to me
I totally agree Candito has the blinkers on here, or is just being hypocritical, it's not coincidence that he just quit full meets and is now only planning to compete as a (sumo) deadlift only guy (probably because that's the only lift he's still competitive in and that's because he's a shorter guy with a toes to plates stance). I still think Candito is a good content creator, he helped me a lot when I was younger, but think about how he peaked age 28, keeps getting injured. Sure he started young but maybe his training style isn't that great for longevity, and his templates still get bounced around like he's a world class coach.
Ouch, but thought provoking perspective.
Hes also natural, I saw powerlifting only get semi popular with guys that were on LOTS of drugs.
EMG only measures surface muscle activation. According to EMG the good morning is a poor to average hamstring builder.
You'd have to shove needles all the way through the muscle in multiple locations and make someone do an exercise with needles in that muscle for an accurate EMG.
EMG data is like polygraph tests, not admissible, not reliable.
Figured it was bullshit. Glad to get confirmation.
Someone text this to Bret Contreras pls.
If you take a sport that takes hours for some guy to move a barbell 9 times, and then compare it to another sport that does the around the same number of reps in one event, but in a couple minutes, with multiple competitors on stage at the same time, and then repeats that dynamic multiple times during a day, and then comes back and does it again the next day, and there's always new unseen events ... i mean it is just ridiculous how boring powerlifting is lol. Very few people will ever care about powerlifting arch or no arch, sumo or no sumo.
A lot of people say “dont blame the lifters blame the rules” but i absolutely blame the lifter. They know they are being completely ridiculous and look foolish yet they choose to do it anyway. If they actually had any honor the rules wouldnt need to be changed
Damn this video is so spot on! Has me shaking my head in agreement the entire time.
Great discussion of the topic. I love powerlifting and seeing strong lifts. Idk the best course of action but strength should definitely be prioritized
I think you need to add the Kabuki PR DL bar paired with Dans Sumo. The bar definitely added lbs
100% this. The kabuki bar makes heavy deads a joke
that 0-60mph analogy blew my mind, at least a little. some of you guys out there are smart as fuck
I purchased Base Strength and I wanted to say it is an excellent read and definitely worth a buy. I had a question on your bullmastif program. I wanted to ask if and how you implement super sets/giant sets in the program. Also what would the warm up sets look like.
I would love to see a sport made out of the super total. In such a sport, I would advocate for a rule being made that one must have their bench grip be at least the same or narrower than their clean grip(before jerk)
Bench rule that might solve all the issues: When the the bar is on the lifters chest their forearms must be vertical.
Great shoutn
Yes! The closer grip would also be healthier for the shoulders.
i feel like a good solution to help keep deadlift ROM sane while still allowing mild sumo would to be to limit how far your legs are allowed to be outside your arms and adjust said distance based on weight class . if you want to have your legs further out your arms have to be further out . this would somewhat prevent the extreme sumo because I don't think many are going to want to do snatch grip deadlifts as there competitive lift
Alex always loved your videos and really helped me in achieving size and strength. I’m a fan of all strength related but the argument for sumo vs conventional is SIMPLE : the bar, it only comes to down to that, the only big difference between these absurd pull is the bendiness of the bar and it’s length. On a true stiff bar, and I don’t have nothing scientific to prove this other than my experience and what I’ve witnessed, sumo puller with just a few weeks to properly dial down and become efficient with conventional would pull nearly the same weight. Why don’t people in the IPF all pull sumo if goal is to be the one with the bigger total? It’s just preference because at the end the difference WITH A STIFF BAR is only on the muscle used. A super wide sumo wouldn’t yield the same power output as closer one, really long leg lifter would be able to specialize in conventional if only it wouldn’t hurt their squat progression. This seem so easy to grasp that I truly have a hard time understanding how people are not able to make the difference between a deadlift on deadlift bar with all the advantages that it gives and a deadlift on a straight bar.
Bromley v atlas, my two favourite fitness dudes. About time! Curious to hear this take.
Listening at work. Let’s gooo
Categories. Raw and single ply. Bench. Let the grip width be the equalizer to the arch. The higher the arch, the narrower the grip. Deadlift. Match the hands to the feet width, with the hands either just outside or just inside the feet width. Simple modifications that still allow for a significant display of strength and skill refinements.
Solution: Calculate competition lifts with the following formula = (lifted weight*(1+vertical rom))/height of lifter.
Example (long rom):
1,9 m (6'3") lifter
350 kg deadlift
0,5 meter (20 inches) rom
-> Calculated lift = (350 kg * (1+0,6 m) / 1,9 m = 295 kg
Another example (short rom):
1,9 m lifter
0,1 m (4 inches) rom
350 kg deadlift
-> Calculated lift = (350 kg * (1+0,1 m) / 1,9 m = 203 kg
Use the same rings that regulate bench grip width to regulate shin width on the sumo. To eliminate zero range bench then make a rule that the elbows have to be parallel or below parallel just like a squat.
Nice future prediction!
@@muscularclassrepresentativ5663 Hey! Whaddya know? Common sense prevails! The side judges are probably going to have to move around a bit instead of just sitting on chairs...
Being an equipped powerlifter I have my bias. IPF, has equipped lifting don't they? Sumo/conventional deadlift? I pull both. Conventional raw, Sumo in gear. If not mistaken, strongman deadlift using straps? You have Eddie Hall pull 1100 conventional with straps or a guy pull 1070 sumo actually holding the bar. As for powerlifting needs to change to be accepted. Does it? Why? Most extreme sports aren't. When I was introduced to powerlifting, I was told it's a cult kind of thing. Most if not all people who say equipped lifting isn't lifting....have never tried it. I remember learning the shirt, and benching more raw, than in the shirt.
I am a 51 year old man who began using weights at age 6.
Our family use to play cards and various other games at the kitchen table.
I wanted to win so desperately that I didn't care if they knew I was cheating.
As long as they let me get away with it, I felt fine about it.
Of course, with continued growth I got past that fairly early on.
Strength has always been the blue collar worker's proverbial middle finger to what they view as upper class elites who take everything away from everyone else.
If you're a poor kid who only has jeans with holes in the knees from actual living, then some designer makes jeans with holes that only rich kids can afford.
There is nothing you can have that someone else doesn't have better.
If you succeed then I am a failure seems to be the mantra. Is there anything uglier and more anti-social than that? To me, the purpose of sport is to foster an environment where people can become better than they were through support from others, and in celebration with others. Shared interest, shared goals, and shared achievement is the spirit. Those who focus on being better than someone else, never do achieve their potential. They only achieve the potential of their competitor.
Those who are disadvantaged in some way like economics, education; etcetera, may resort to breaking the spirit of the law in order to achieve a standard that is beyond their ultimate capacity. It is the power of the inferiority complex that moves people into these grey areas of performance.
great video, strongman is great with only conventional deadlifts being pulled!
also, there is a massive difference from a narrow stance sumo puller and a wide stance sumo puller. personally, i detest both because of the wide stance puller! but if you look at Taylor Atwood, his sumo stance is somewhat comparable to a wide stance conventional pull
two simple fixes: 1) get rid of sumo. 2) make it such that the forearms must be perpendicular to the ground when the bar is on the chest in the bench press.
One thing I have never understood is this...powerlifters don't really make any money doing it. What's the driving force behind competing? I think it's for the notoriety and reputation of being the legitimate strongest in your class. So what's the point of hitting a number that people are going to asterix the hell out of? Who is more respected as a strong human, someone like John Haack who high bar squats, benches without much arch, and pulls conventional...or Sean Noriega, who pushes the limits of the rules? I guess if the goal is to win your class and get one of those medals everyone gets, then go ahead. I don't know, someone help me out here. Powerlifting should be to reveal who is the strongest.
Only 1 person a year gets the 1st place medal for the 82.5kg Open weight class, it's not a "medal everyone gets." There are no asterisks in record books of the totals or championships. In powerlifting, the winner is the best powerlifter. (I'm not saying that's what it should or shouldn't be). People compete because they're competitive and want to be the best on something. For powerlifters, it's maximizing their total against others. You don't have to AGREE, but this is what it essentially is and I'm just responding because you said you didn't understand why people compete.
What if lifters were required to drop their elbows to shoulder level? That would force a range of motion without having to measure everybodys limb lengths, similar to squatting below parallel.
Humerus parallel to floor minimum ? Good idea..
@@sardalamit exactly! Don't know precisely how to word it but if such a regulation is achieved, the grip width and arch would have a natural limit based on the lifter. Not so many people complain about the squat for that reason
I think the normal sumo deadlifts look more fine to most people but it definitely would be a bit more popular if it was just conventional
Why not regulate minimum bar movement length? That would address the problem directly. It would allow for technique adjustments and have a trainable target distance. While also removing the extreme arch abuses.
Or minimum bend of the elbow angle is the other metric that measures functional strength.
Many would argue that the strict overhead press is a better metric of upper-body strength versus a bench press where your shoulder blades do not track in a way that is natural and translates into the real world
Not sure if you’ll see this, but has anyone suggested one of the following for the sumo, other than getting rid of it.
1. Meets where a total for both sumo and conventional are mandatory.
2. Making sumo pullers, pull from a deficit. I’d assume their argument against this, is that it’s no longer a sumo lift. Puts them in a position to be injured, which I don’t know if that’s true, probably no more so than any other lift. Or, puts them at a disadvantage. Which, if that’s their argument, then they are admitting to having an advantage by pulling sumo.
Just some thoughts. Great content as always.
Sumo shouldn’t be illegal, a good rule may be something like “the bar must pass x number of inches above the knee” or something like that.
funnily enough does the greenscreen cause a slight grinch beard. really fits the intro
Great video! My take is that sumo and conventional should be two different categories entirely. Just like sleeved, squats and wrapped squats are two different categories.
I agree 100 % with everything you say in this video...
It's laughable that anyone thinks the barrier to the sport growing is meme benches or sumos when you have referees and judges shouting at people for wrong underwear and t shirts.
The sport is inherently a very boring one that is and always will be participant led. It is not a spectator sport whatsoever.
Instead of catering to changing meme benches how about we treat those who give an ounce of interest in the sport something to actually enjoy? Let's not shut out people because of stupid underwear rules and instead let's make them have a great time.
That is what grows a sport. People enjoying it. Telling others about it.
You nailed it. I'm a Powerlifter, but prefer to see s strongman competition than a boring ipf contest any time.
Another great video👏👏👏
Bench: Forearms perpendicular to floor in down position.
Deadlift: Knees inside elbows in setup.
You could officially separate the lifts, while placing them in their own categories when competing. Sumo deadlift would be a different category from conventional, same thing for squat, and have differentiation for arched bench and standard bench, for instance.
Falsely equating Sumo with Conventional deadlifts is like falsely equating parallel Lowbar with ATG Overhead squats.
Huh
You're right, none of those are Nearly As cool and interesting as ATH overhead squats
Powerlifting is a weekend warrior sport. The skill requirement is so low that literally anyone can compete. Not the case with weightlifting or strongman. And it's really boring.
I completely agree with you.
I'm truly not "in this world", although my dad was a competitive powerlifter, but it seems to me like there may be an easy solution to both the deadlift and bench press issues that doesn't try to "measure" restrictions, and puts a true "standard" to the sport (versus just doing "whatever" in the gym...
For bench press, this one seems really simple to put a couple of standards to to remove some of the silliness (but again, I'm no expert)...
- Bar "rack height" must be set at or above the point where the bar hits the wrist-crease of arms extended vertically from the shoulders (base of hand must touch bar when hands bend forward. This allows for plenty of grip width, but without starting instanely low and wide.
- The actual lift then starts after unracking, with a full lockout with arms directly angled over shoulders (from a side view, not from a width perspective as that is grip width which is variable based on the above starting rack setup limitations)... elbows must pass BELOW the plane of the bench while in contact with the chest, then bar must return to lockout again with vertical arms (side view), prior to returning to the rack.
Doing those changes it would seem negates the "arch" as a ROM limiting factor. During the lift, you can still arch as much as you like (butt on seat rule still in place though) to impart more force into the bar, but "at the bottom" you are going to have to leave clearance for the elbows to drop below bench level. This still leaves tons of room for "gaming" as you can then "arch to press" using your body basically to assist lifting the bar back to a higher position before finishing with the arms for lockout, BUT at least it imparts some standard to the mix, AND ensures a full range of motion happens regardless of the lifters "arch-ability". This also allows any reasonable grip width desired, because you aren't going to want to "pec fly" a freaking heavy bench press barbell, so the insane (ROM limiting) grip widths are eliminated, while still allowing mobility/structurally different lifters to choose a good grip within reasonable, biometrically properly scaled, ranges (versus some definied weight-class/marks on the barbell" standards which potentially could interfere with legitimately unique physiologies.
For deadlift, this seems too simple. Grip must be done outside of the legs (if more definition is needed, maybe that no part of the hands can be in contact with or inside of the front-most part of the leg at lift initation/the point of setup (and no changing grip or foot positions during the lift). Full ROM means hips extended in line with the knees, and knees fully locked out. Period. Sumo deadlift becomes (as it should be) it's "own thing" and not a factor/allowance in competitive powerlifting events. Again, this allows physiological-dependent setups, within a reasonable to everyone standard. Just about the only "gaming" this would allow, is lifters to setup very wide, then bend their legs inward during setup, press out during the lift, and any lifter foolish enough to risk the ensuing knee, and even hip or ankle damage potential from such a setup, won't be in the sport long.
So just tossing those thoughts out there, not trying to incur any wrath, just some ideas. I don't have the largest chest in the world, so it's possible the bench press may functionally not allow someone with a huge chest to reach elbows-below bench (that's also an easy item to verify, simply have small "padded stands" to each side that match the original bench height, or could go fancy with an optical sensor system, or just eyeballs of a judge, many options for this (if they are padded like the bench, this actually would reduce ROM as the lifter compresses the bench, but the stands would be "uncompressed" so that makes it even a bit more suitable, IMO)... once they contact the pads/break the line, they can go back up. I can't actually imagine anyone (my dad had a HUGE chest and horrible mobility, but could still bench with elbows below parallel/the bench... ooh, that could be an alternate suggestion "upper arms must reach parallel with the ground before going up"
Anyhow, just my random thoughts, still tons of room for flexibilty with just a few minor rules there, and makes a pretty equal playing ground in that even those with better "arch/stance" adaptations, aren't just getting away with craziness. Feel free to toss in constructive thoughts if anyone reads this (I realize it's a year old).
Regarding the NASCAR analogy… lookup “goodharts law”
“When the measure becomes the target, it ceases to be a reliable measure”
As far as outlawing sumo I don’t know if that’s really the issue. I think it’s the deadlift bars that have really moved the needle recently. I bet a stiff bar would remove a fair bit of the sumo complaints. All sports have gone through this optimization. If you look at where nba players take shots compared to now and the 70s it’s a completely different distribution. Teams figured out where it makes the best sense to shoot from. The result is a much more boring game. Players are told to take the boring more predictable shots and it wins games and seasons. If you watch footage of old nba games it’s much more engaging. The back and forth is much more dynamic. Someone like Steph curry would not have been nearly as successful 3 decades ago. I’m not sure if this is isolated to backyard strength sports or sports in general. It seems like a lot of aspects of life are becoming more and more optimized. My mother is a 6th grade teacher and she’s told to make the kids start building resumes for college. There’s a great quote from a statistician Nassim Taleb I’m paraphrasing but “the moment you start using a metric is when it becomes useless”
Solid point. I would love to see people do powerlifting on AXLES, preferably stubby ones. Would get rid of a lot of dodgy contortionist shit.
And Tom Lats, lets make the bench a "feet up" lift where the arch is eliminated.
@Tom Lats strongman is only conventional
Either you change grip and stance width, or you get like Dan Green and Cailer Woolam and get good at both?
the fact that sumo with figure 8 straps is just kinda treated and talked about like its a normal deadlift is insane. blocks help sumo deadlifts a ton and figure 8 straps allow you to put the weight in your fingers essentially making it off blocks. its more like a 3 board bench. the fact that nobody recognizes that boggles my mind. nobody is celebrating 3 boards why are we doing it with sumos with figure 8s.
No competition allows straps nor blocks. Youre comparing a recreational lift to strict competitions. Are people not allowed to do what they want on their own to please you?
EDIT: my bad, after another comment and rereading I think you and I are on the same page
This is why i laugh at matt venas gym lifts. He was deadlifting 700 for 5 reps using that dumbass setup, then in competition he hit 670 for a max lmao
@@3ncore706 but matt vena is actually strong? And has made multiple videos discussing the straps situation? And 670 is still an incredible deadlift so whats so funny exactly?
@@andresruval you totally missed the point. What he’s saying is that there’s no need to change the rules IN COMPETITION based on people fucking around with straps and other gear only possible OUTSIDE COMPETITION.
@@jettfuelfitness what you said is also what I want to make a point on. But since he asked "why are we celebrating 8 fig strap sumo?" I assumed he was giving the same weight to recreational lifts and competition ones, he didnt made that distinction clear, my bad if I misinterpred.
And btw, people on the internet do use those rare 999th standard deviation ultra rare ultra wide super whippy bar 8 fig straps recreational lifts as grounds to "regulate" sumo in competitions.
I mean how many gangley ass spaghetti arm teens do you see now with a 600-800lb sumo? With near zero muscle mass and they’ll never have any either
And now they get handed a noodle whipped Kabuki clown bar that just a couple federations said ok to, so now everyone’s records are getting shattered by clown bar sumo lifters
Exactly, every time you see a video of a high school kid pulling 600+ it is always sumo, every single time. Wonder why that is lol
@@marshalpulls6428 because that’s what they’re better at?
@@ixbleauxi4633 yeah, they’re better at sumo because conventional is harder. Pulling sumo allows these teenage skellys to pull big numbers a few inches off the ground, because it’s easier.
@@marshalpulls6428 if it’s so easy why don’t you do it
It’s interesting seeing sports change. Michael Jordan era NBA is very different than modern era, but both are great IMO.
This is why i now ask what people standing strict press instead of bench.
Harder to game the lift
On the sumo deadlift being the optimal technique for world record deadlift. If you look at the tested side, conventional is still the dominant strategy. I believe the difference is not the drug use but instead the DEADLIFT BARS. Sumo is very sensitive to ROM, just look at a sumo block pull versus off of the floor and versus a deficit sumo deadlift. Compaire that to conventional where for many an 18" deadlift is harder, mid shin is a little easier, and deficit is slightly harder. Before we ban sumo I think deadlift bars need to left to the wayside and stiff bars should be used for all three lifts.
Leave squat bars out of this, they didn't do anything wrong.
They better change something so the sport continues to grow for the better, not drive people away. I'm starting to lean more towards strongman because it represents strength in different ways other than just 3 lifts. Bench press should def be limited first and then address the sumo, especially with the new Kabuki bars... longer and whippier making sumo that much easier. DUMB. I Have a feeling powerlifting will be all SUMO and strongman will be where you go to conventional lol.
yeah, lifting on suits and straps is reaaaal strenght
yeah, lifting on suits and straps is reaaaal strenght
Strongman is more relatable. You can't fake or manipulate ROM when you're pulling a plane, pressing a log or squatting a car. Also, it's just cartoonish and fun. 😁
straps and suits are better than 2'' of ROM on some lifts lol.
Some people just love rules. I've met quite a few people who derive a special kind of pleasure from violating the spirit of the rules in favour of the word. It's not malicious. Some people feel like they are part of an in-group because they understand the ins-and-outs of something obscure.
Why not regulate the ROM for the lifts? Allow Sumo and the arch for people that are built with disadvantage but define the ROM that needs to be reached to disallow people built with advantage. Could work?
@Alexander Bromley, 30yrs in the sport and several other strength sports , I say have sumo and conventional deadlifts separated in records , so far as arch benching debate , heres my solution . Ive actually tested this with several benchers with different body styles and not one has been able to cheat the ROM while being able to arch . Very simple , Arch or not , when the barbell touches the chest , the humerus of the arm should be at a flat plain ( elbow tip : center mass of the shoulder for example ) . This allows an arch just not a extreme arch regardless of body type . I agree with you on the grip width solution and feel it will not cover all body types as effectively .
I feel the separation of conventional and sumo records opens a Pandoras box and creates its own set of issues. For example, where would you put hybrid pullers?
That would honestly be easy to define , any grip outside the knees in a DL would be categorized as conventional , any grip inside the knees while performing a DL would fall into sumo . Honestly they both been defined as such the past 40+ yrs I’ve known .
@@ElGroodleReezo a separate record duh
@@cmillett79 Gotcha, are they going to be weighted different in reference to dots? Or if I break a ATWR total with a sumo deadlift but the guy who held the previous ATWR total deadlifted conventional, does that mean he gets to keep his record and I get a new one?
@@ElGroodleReezo That would be up to the organizations admins if thats the route it ever goes. In my mind , all "known" Sumo and Conv would be divided and placed accordingly . Would not be that hard to do .
So much of this could be easily solved with categories for specific lifting styles: weight to weight sumo, hybrid sumo, conventional. Even with bars, stiff bars deadlifts, texas bar deadlifts, kabuki deadlifts. When mechanics are arguably different, that should be a separate (new) category for competing in and setting records against. Or simply, ban sumo, force conventional only. But I'm okay exploring extreme limits if they are put into specific classifications.
What is so annoying about that 725lb deadlift video that everyone has shared is that it is NOWHERE NEAR A COMPETITION STANDARD. Remove that guy's straps, remove the bumpers and pound plates, put calibrated plates on the bar, and watch him lose 100lbs+ on that lift. On top of this, it is a gym lift.
While I definitely agree with rule changes for powerlifting (ideally grip widths by weight class), I hate cherry-picking tiktok lifts to prove how powerlifitng is stupid.
Sumo on a dl bar and pound plates and straps is a joke. Calibrated plates and a stiff bar make that kind of mockery impossible.
Noob question here: What‘s the problem with pound plates or bumber plates (apart from being not calibrated). Seriously, not trolling!
@@Kalkschwarz Bumper plates are thicker which moves the weight further out and allows the bar to bend more before the plates actually leave the ground.
@@Kalkschwarz no problem dude- to clarify further, the whip really becomes noticeable past 4 plates or so. if you're a beginner, it does not matter too much. the more whip, the more the bar will bend before all the plates lift off the floor, which makes the static friction much easier to break. Calibrated plates are much thinner and denser as they 25kg a piece, and they limit the whip tremendously. Deadlift bars are purposely both longer with longer sleeves and less tensile strength as they are meant to bend. Stiff bars are shorter with higher tensile strength and have shorter sleeves to prevent whip.
Hope that explains everything!
@@anthonymorabito32 Thanks man, makes sense!
Use a standard length Texas Power Bar or Ohio Power Bar for ALL LIFTS and require bench grip to be NO WIDER than your deadlift grip and require UPPER GLUTE MEDIUS contact with the bench throughout the entirety of the lift with fully flat feet heels down on bench for the whole setup and lift…
"500 is such a low bar to hit" - why you gotta do me like that man? I'm a fan, you know.
I wouldn't mess with deadlift feet position, just made it to where they gotta grip outside their legs not inside. That way it makes them still have to bend down and deadlift no matter what. And bench is simple, make their elbows have to break the shoulder line to ensure they're actually pressing the weight.
I appreciate your unbiased and unemotional view points on these topics. At times Zach seems very biased but he has been so much better as of late. Thanks for the content.
90 degree elbows on bench, and some max feet width on sumo
Love the entertaining content man. Keep it coming!!!! ♥️♥️♥️
I did have an off topic question I didn't hear you cover in your previous video on training splits.
I'm currently on the 3 day full body split program you created available in base strength. It has really changed my life as I am getting back into training after a year off. I am wondering however what to do when I inevitably fail a rep/set during my 3 week waves?
What would the protocol be if I fail on my week 3 volume bench press 5 sets of 8. Let's say I fail on rep 6 of 8. What would you recommend I do next as a cookie cutter approach to failing a set for this program?
I was trying to find your Facebook so I can direct my questions to the group on there instead of bothering you on your channel here but I could not find you on Facebook!! Do you perhaps have a link?
🙏 Thanks again for everything, you fixed my deadlift man and that means a lot.
The percentages are prescribed so that you don't fail. 5x8 is recommended at 70%, which is a 12-15 rep max, depending on the person and the lift. If you fail here, you likely started with an inaccurate training max or you aren't resting long enough between sets (4 or 5 minutes is warranted here).
If you do fail, adjust your training max down and repeat. I don't recommending moving on to the second wave until you've completed all reps in the first one.
@@AlexanderBromley I was wondering why the Prs kept coming without any failure. This program is insane. I can't wait to see how far I can get before introducing a peak strength wave. I still have much to read in base strength and I finally have some free time. Thanks for all the content Alex
Hadn't heard these arguments since I've been unplugged for so long. Good arguments against this insane, limited-ROM rules gaming people are doing.
It's the cheap steel bars with no rigidity.
Excellent video. I agree entirely. However, as you pointed out, this is a handful of a percent of people and "people have eyes". Nobody is going to be asking this sumo kid his program or nutrition or what kind of assistance he does. He's got zero credit for his lift. So that's the pushback of the community, is that he'll do this and zero people will care. So, a question for you Alex, how do you think we can work around the bench thing? Do you think maybe a minimum amount of elbow bend, or the angle of the shoulder to the elbow compared to the floor or the bench?
That first video with the sumo reminded me of Jamal's form. He pulls a really narrow stance sumo considering he's about 6 foot, and has a long ROM. He's not an alpha because he pulls 1000 sumo, he's an alpha because he pulls 1000 sumo in a mechanically harder way
I agree, but it's the rules that have to change. Some people only care about winning, cause it's competition and of course they do. If you call it a sport, people will win however they can. That's competition.
For bench, could they require the elbows to bend 90 degrees?
I remember listening to some video claiming that anything else puts you in danger of really bad injuries.
Not that you can't get away with it without injury but why risk it. Most probably won't have any major injuries.
I still think that could be the best solution...
Get rid of deadlift bars and bring in the legal grip width for bench.
@10:55 my whole posture drops when he says 500 lb is run of the mill 🤣😒😢
I bought your new paperback Deadlift book. I am try to figure out your programming.
I like powerlifting for the feat of strength than reducing ROM for the sake of weight. If you have better leverages @ sumo, im fine with it, and no factors of flexibility but theres something with integrity with hyper competitive lifters that I can’t wrap my head around. Like idk how some people rewatch their bench thinking,’wow i am so strong in that’ when the bench moves 1 inch. I hate this mentality and I like strength for the reason of being strong. I always ATG highbar squat, conventional deadlift + don’t have a crazy wide arch or grip width.
Always high quality content. Can't stand the 135% play back speed video clips
the one thing I'll say in defense of sumo, is that breaking the floor itself is way harder. In every other way it's easier.
I want to win or lose according to beefiness, not demonic mobility lol.
My sumo nd conventional rom is almost same....i do sumo in comp..but conventional is my fav....
For peat sake I think functional strength is best measured by work. Make a device that measures the force and distance affordable and implement that. Obviously the person who moves the same weight another foot is probably stronger.
We don’t have a strength culture, which appreciates, recognizes and rewards lifters for their efforts with a way to make a living, like in China. We have CrossFit, but that’s about it. Powerlifting events don’t attract large attendance because so few of us have experience trying to move iron around. It’s too bad.
Newbie question…. What do you mean when you say “soft elbows”?