Are PEDs cheating? Just letting you know I watched your video on competing a few months back and signed upfor the belfast marathon. Completed in 5hrs 31 mins on sunday. Sometimes a small nudge is all you need. Thanks gents.
The issue really is just powerlifting as a whole is based off lifts that aren’t supposed to be “performance” lifts and are tools for training, so get abused as much as possible to get more weight on the bar rather than doing them from their original s&c conceit/technical models
The sumo wasn't nearly as controversial until the deadlift bars came into play, and especially now with the Kabuki bar. More so than even the bio mechanics of the lifters themselves, sumo really takes advantage of the specifications of the new bars. Take it one step further outside of competitions, and the clout lifters are using straps and gripping even more narrow, and really taking advantage of the whip.
Yeah I think you are on to something. I DL conventional for many years and shunned sumo. When I started pulling some sumo I noticed that breaking the weight off the floor was by far the hardest part of Sumo, whereas Conventional the same weight would fly off the floor but get difficult above the knees (watch people's bar speed at different points in a lift). So, a very whippy bar basically let's a Sumo lifters skip the hard part entirely, but a conventional lifter doesn't get that advantage. They just need to use very stiff bars
@@nicky_hashtag4264 I didn't say it's a non issue on stiff bars, just wasn't "as controversial" until deadlift bars were implemented. Not everyone competes under the IPF banner.
The entire debate is interesting to me as someone who started out as a powerlifter 15 years ago. Back then, just RAW was new and no one was talking about sumo being cheating. I first heard people say it (to the point that I remember it being a thing) maybe in 2018. I really think the noodly deadlift bar ultra wide stance thing is the issue. Someone I know sumo deadlifted 300 kg on a weightlifting bar with bumper plates but only got 270 on an Eleiko bar in competition. Now if you compare that to the Kabuki bar... That's why (to my knowledge) it isn't a big debate in the IPF, unlike the bench thing.
there is this deadlift only comp once a year in a neighboring city...gonna get sika pull, prep up and compete there next year with my super long orang utan arms doing sumo with 2 cm ROM. Wish me luck.
I pull sumo After a year or so of struggling with conventional I switched to sumo and it just feels so much better My back angle on conventional is literally horizontal, if I drop my hips then my shins are in the way, so move the bar forwards but now I'm off balance For a while I stopped doing deadlifts completely, now sumo allows me to deadlift again in a way that feels natural Just my two pence I'm open to ideas around enforcing a vertical shin angle to prevent ultra wide stances and tiny ROM but as mentioned in the video, many people still prefer conventional and lift more with conventional so I don't think it's a big problem
I have the same issues with conventional. Short legs and arm and long torso.... I stubbornly pulled conventional for years as it's "more different" from squats than sumo. Then one day I went to a deadlift seminar and pulled sumo for the first time at the suggestion of the coach that had just spent 20min working with me on my conventional setup. After that first pull, he went and brought 2 other coaches over t I watch me and they were amazed that was my second sumo pull ever, all agreed I was absolutely built to pull sumo. And it truly did feel super smooth and natural even though I could only pull about 80% of my conventional pull weight.
My primary issue with sumo deadlifting is that it just doesn't seem to carry over too much... like sumo pullers still rely very heavily on their conventional pull to drive their sumo up, whereas most of the time its not the other way around. I dont pick up farmers' handles in a sumo stance, I don't clean sumo, I dont walk sumo, I wouldn't do anything sumo aside from sumo... Yes, you can wide stance squat, but that's really only an equipped powerlifting thing and good luck having that work for you without a squat suit.
@Ostrolphant yes the hands are inside the feet out of nessesity but they legs aren't exactly in a sumo stance, the back angle is different and the mechanics are extremely different as picking an atlas stone is more a slightly wide leg press followed by immediately moving your feet closer together so you can rest the stone on your lap. Sumo deadlifting isn't making you any better at atlas stones or sandbags, the mechanics are just so different.
One intersting aspect is that if you make your squat very low bar and with a wide stance, while at the same time doing sumo deadlifts with an upright torso, then you're essentially converging them towards the same trap bar deadlift like motor pattern, and in a full meet you could potentially end up fatiguing the same ranges of motion a lot more. This could explain why anomalies like John Haack pop up who have a very knee dominant squat and hip dominant deadlift.
Provided I still front squat and do my clean pulls, but my back squat suck (example only 10kg more than front) could deficit sumo deadlift replace the back squat as they hit similar muscles?
The deadlift as an exercise is quite different from the sumo deadlift The deadlift as an idea, i.e. lifting a heavy weight off of the ground should include both. Is a split clean cheating? No, its objectively worse. Was squat cleaning cheating when it was first developed? Maybe. I have no idea. Can you do a jefferson deadlift in comp if uou happen to be better at that? If comps and federation have set rules for lifts already they should further clarify those rules to ban or accept variations of lifts e.g, hands cant be more than x distance wide in a bench, feet cant be more than x wide in a deadlift
Do you lose any functionality of the thumb when the "nerve endings die off" from hook grip? Or what is the actual process through which hookgrip stops hurting
Sumo is fine in the same way massive arch and wide grip on Bench. I would advocate for a maximum shin width for Sumo to standardize it much like grip width for bench or Clean & Jerk
I wasn't aware that cleans had a grip limit, I thought it was practicality. Also for deadlift it would be tough to set a max shin width that was comprehensive across all weight classes
I’d like to see that as well. But as someone close to a 100kgs, my tip is volume, volume, volume. And to not be afraid of doing push presses to overload the movement.
@@dennisnordlund902 id argue frequency is overall better than volume. military press like the bench press responds better to higher frequency. we're talking 3x + a week.
Funny thing is today there was a post going round about IPF(main powerlifting fed) discussing evaluating sumo technique. It will be the same commitee that changed the bench rules.
Speaking from personal experience, the easiest deadlift isn't allowed in competition which is sumo with straps. I had barely pulled sumo in my life, trained it for 1 week, then pulled 96% of my conventional mixed grip max using sumo with straps. I am totally confident that if I trained that lift I would exceed my conventional max. Seeing videos of guys ego lifting in the gym using sumo with straps is unimpressive to me for this reason. However I don't think sumo on a stiff bar without straps provides a huge advantage. The noodle bars used it some feds vary too much and do provide an advantage to sumo pullers. Regardless, it's a different lift and I don't think it belongs in competition.
This is a very recent debate! Sumo stance has always been permissible, and many of the greats, such as Mike Bridges and Walter Thomas, opted for it. But many other greats, such as Vince Anello and Lamar Gant, opted for conventional, when they could have done sumo. Ed Coan used both stances, as did Tom Eiseman. Read Fred Hatfield’s excellent book on powerlifting-body structure DOES have something to do with it. I’ve set masters American records in USAPL using both sumo and conventional, and can lift basically the same with either stance. I’ve normally opted for sumo because it’s a bit more comfortable for me.
I don't think any of this counters the fact that for most people sumo is an easier lift, and for everybody it is biomechanically different, so they shouldn't be compared imo
@@bruuhhhh While I agree that most find sumo more suitable, I disagree that the two styles shouldn't be compared. Some of the current great deadlifters choose conventional over sumo, both untested (Haack) and tested--Rondel Hunte, Russell Orhii, Ashton Rouska (who seems to be equally good at both). There's no need for separate competition--these guys are beating the sumo lifters.
Both sides of the argument are snorting copium tbh. Sumo pullers won’t acknowledge that it’s an easier lift inherently for most of the population. conventional guys won’t acknowledge that they just might suck at deadlifting and need to train harder.
To add to this, one should try to keep the deficit between the two lifts as minimal as possible. If you pull 500 one way and 365 the other way, you have some weaknesses that should be addressed.
I don't know that it is an inherently easier lift. In fact in my experience lifting Sumo, breaking it off the floor is significantly harder than conventional, but the roles are reversed at lockout. That is, I'll never fail a Sumo that I can get to my knees, but I can break more weight off the floor conventional that I cannot lockout. As far as the competition debate goes, I just think you need to use very stiff bars, it is the floppy bars that let Sumo lifters basically skip the hard part.
@@cheeks7050 you raise a good point but I think that goes without saying since I was talking about sumo and the video is about sumo. Being strict about ratios between lifts isn’t the most important thing but understanding the relationship between two lifts is. You can apply this to Jefferson’s, hacks, deficits etc if you want. Nothing stopping you.
@@cheeks7050 some weaknesses highlighted by the deficit are lat tightness, lower back strength, glute activation, issues with setup, quad/hamstring involvement. It’s very applicable. Seth Averseorth, Rauno Heinla and Jamal Browner put me on to this idea and through a couple sessions of sumo I’ve realized I have a weak lower back and glutes so I’m doing more back extensions and bent rows. Also my hips are tight asf.
Do you think training around your cycle (menstrual not PEDs, get your heads out of the gutter) is actually beneficial in weightlifting/powerlifting/the sports you know stuff about? I feel like this has become a new fitness influencer topic, and they seem to think yes, but that's just made me more suspicious.
From a training perspective conventional is probably your better choice assuming you also do squats, since it is "more different" from squats than sumo DL
Everything I visit my parent’s house and get put to work digging something they are too old to do comfortably now I think about how similar my stance is to sumo. When you’re pulling a tree stump out of a hole it is basically a deficit sumo pull. I almost never have the same feeling about a conventional deadlift stance but I’m sure the hip hinge strength translates a lot anyway.
Well said. It's not literally cheating in an organized competition where the rules allow for it, but if you're telling an acquaintance how much you deadlift and it's sumo, I think you should say it's how much you "sumo deadlift" not how much you "deadlift". I think it's like doing "cheat reps" on any other lift. If you put English on your press or you don't bring it down to your collarbone, then that's not doing a press in terms of what you have achieved.
Is this still a debate? If sumo is the same as conventional why is snatch grip dl not in the same boat ? It's basically the same thing but it's the arms not the legs that's wide.
A friend competed at powerlifting and she could NOT train sumo... Lomg arms, long legs, long fingers (great grip). She got hurt every time, only conventional was ok... 🤷🏼♀️ I guess she couldn't "cheat" even if she wanted to ....
I'd argue firstly wide stance squats are a much more similar more similar movement to narrow stance than sumo to conventional, but also as the hip crease still needs to go below the knee it has a lesser impact on ROM
So subjective as everyone has different principles. On one hand it’s understandable why many see it as a bastardization from the pure movement. On the other hand it’s not fair to punish those who show up to competitions with a win-at-all-costs mentality, especially when it’s allowed as per the rules. At the end of the day all sport is contrived and the winning athletes will always be defined by the rules ie what they can get away with. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
Not cheating but definitely a different lift. All you have to do is look at the sun 93kg/205lb weight classes at the top level and you'll see that sumo makes up a much greater proportion of lifters. It doesn't make sense to say that all top lifters just happen to pull sumo. I think the logical conclusion is that for those weight classes, sumo allows you to pull more.
Even sumo wrestlers do not the "sumo deadlift" haha I am curious why powerlifting has a trend for naming things incorrectly haha Powerlifting should be renamed strength lifting haha
I’ve always compared sumo deadlifting to butterfly pull ups in CrossFit. The standards for deadlift are to lift the weight off the floor and fully extend knees and hips and to hit the highest possible weight. Sumo allows some people to hit those standards more efficiently. The pull up standards in CrossFit are to get your chin over the bar and arms fully extended at the bottom and most CrossFit workouts are for time or as many reps in a certain amount of time. Butterfly pull ups are the most efficient way to achieve this
I still don’t see why people don’t just look at it physics wise. Work = Force x Distance, and in conventional the bar goes a farther distance than in sumo. So therefore there’s more work involved in conventional, case closed.
Not necessarily Edit: for instance, my Sumo ROM is indistinguishable from my conventional. But I'm also using it to train, not show off, so that might have something to do with it.
In the words of the #1 powerlifter, John Haack, "I think people should worry more about how much weight they're picking up than how wide someone else's legs are." Sumo on stiff bar isn't much different than wide grip benches with big arches. It can de done cheesy. It can be done fairly.
So we need some stats on how often it is use at competition and how often the winner used sumo deadlift... it is not relevant what you believe people are strongest with. We got those stats so talk about reality and not your thought experiment.
Sumo = less range of motion = easier. It’s just a short cut lift and should not be called a deadlift. If it was just called a sumo pull it would be absolutely fine. But it can’t be chucked in with a raw conventional deadlift, it’s disrespectful.
Lemme guess, disrespectful because people pull more than you? It's not less range of motion or easier in every case. It's relative to each person. People may be able to place their legs absurdly wide, but that isn't actually the strongest position of power for a sumo stance deadlift.
Sumo isn't cheating but it is gay and nowhere near as valid or a display of full body strength as conventional. 9.9 times out of 10 a 700lb conventional deadlifter is going to have a stronger back, core, and lower body than a 700lb sumo deadlifter. Legal in comp, but less functional and hypertrophic overall.
IMO low bar squatting instead of high bar is more of a cheat compared to sumo deadlifting instead of conventional. Seen powerlifters who can make 215kg low bar look really solid and then the same lifter does 160kg high bar and it looks like an RPE 11. I don't watch all that much powerlifting, but from what i've seen it's far more rare to see high bar squatters than it is conventional deadlifters, but for some reason all of the focus is on sumo. I guess it's just that low bar squat is "acceptable" and the normal way to squat in the sport and high bar is something that weightlifters & bodybuilders do 😂.
@@callmeacutekitten8106 How so? In appearence they might be more similiar, but in muscle activation low bar and high bar squats are very different. In the low bar squat the quadriceps take less load as it is shifted onto the posterior chain, and rather than a leg focused exercise it becomes a leg/back hybrid lift. In sumo and conventional the appearence differs more, but the amount of musle activation is much more similiar. Sumo sees more quadriceps activation whereas conventional sees more hamstrings activation. And then, depending on your leverages, stance etc, you may see more activation in your upper back or glutes in one of the lifts, but fact is that the muscle activation and amount of total muscle mass involved is significantly more similiar in the two deadlift variations compared to the two squat variations.
Sumo is just a different lift. It requires a different set of skills and mobility. Honestly with its emphasis on hip mobility, oly lifters should incorporate them more
The dumbest thing I keep hearing about sumo, is the reduced ROM propoganda. Its still 400kilos being held and lifted. Sumo is cheating but it seems most people who say this don't understand why that is the case.
Wth are you going on about. If you take one person and measure how far the barbell moves during sumo vs conventional. The barbell travels higher in conventional. Moving a barbell higher/further requires more absolute force generation. It's simple physics. A barbell moved further requires more work. lifting at its most basic premise is weight x the distance it moves = work being done.
@@thepeatboggy is that because of the fact your body is in a better position because of the various angles and moment angles of the joints in better positions or is it just because of the ROM. That's like saying you can quarter squat more than you can atg squat. No shit Sherlock. It's not because of the distance traveled. It's the fact that quarter squats don't stretch your individual sarcomeres as much and the angles of your joints at the end range of motion are more advantageous in terms of force production around them. The shorter ROM is a confounding variable.
@@thicccboyztv this is like people misquoting Newton's 3rd Law of motion. When preforming a deadlift many muscles in the body are producing a force at various angles about their associated joints. You got your quads extending the knee, the hams and glutes flexing about the hip. Little bit of ham flexion about the knee. Lower back muscles keeping the spine neutral and many more. The various muscle produce a net force the is upwards and inwards. You aren't just pulling the bar up. Sumo alters the positions of these forces and the various levels of stretch in these muscles sarcomeres, to put the body in a much more advantageous position to produce the energy necessary to lift the barbell. W=Fd is misused here as this equation expressly talks about displacement. Throwing a barbell to the moon and upon reentry it lands 1m above the position it was thrown from is exactly the same work down as just deadlifting it and it moves 1m. Sumo or conventional. What's important to the person is the energy (chemical potential energy from chemicals or hormones in your blood, tensile energy from muscles fibres or any other energies used up to move that barbell) used to get to that barbell to that point. An incredibly grindy 160kg that last 7 seconds and has form breakdown so bad physios around the world get a boner, is far more taxing than a 160 with efficient form. The Uber wide sumo stance makes the pull easier, because you get to start with a back closer to perpendicular with the ground (lower back muscles aren't under as much tension to keep the spine neutral) and the hips closer to the bar (hip hinge angle is greatly reduced). Yes this reduces the ROM but much, much more importantly, it puts your body in a better position to produce the necessary forces to lift stuff in that position. In summary, Sumo reduces the energy required to move a barbell a distance. Work done is just about displacement. Yes the ROM is reduced but this is a confounding factor as a result of the body and the various joints and muscles being in better positions to create the necessary energy to produce that force.
POV: Weightlifters talking about a sport they have never done. Both of you are wrong with your takes and analogies. Banning sumo would be like banning a squat jerk. Thats the equivalent. Not those stupid analogies "comparing OHP with a bench" or "cars vs bikes" . Did you even turn your brain on today? "If you can pull it off, you might be stonger than the conventional way." This is the only way you can and should look at sumo vs conventional. Sumo leaves less margin for error and you get rewarded by a physically more efficient lift. Thats the end of the discussion boys. Nice 10 minutes of talking absolute garbage.
Who said anything about banning? It's a different lift from conventional and should be judged accordingly. Don't get mad at them because your conventional deadlift is ass.
so you heard 10s of the video, disagreed with the analogies they came up with on the spot, spent more time writing a comment shitting on a soundbite than watching the video and gave yourself a pat on the back. How well did I do describing what happened?
Short answer: Yes Long answer: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssssseeeesssssssssssss
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Are PEDs cheating?
Just letting you know I watched your video on competing a few months back and signed upfor the belfast marathon. Completed in 5hrs 31 mins on sunday. Sometimes a small nudge is all you need. Thanks gents.
Nice!!! Congrats. That's great to hear
No PEDs are a different variation of supplements and you dont call creatine cheating 🤫
its only cheating if u get caught, which nobody does because tested lifting is a joke, therefore PED = natty
only if you're also handsome
@@janrupnow4103 is creatine cheating?
"Sumo deadlift is cheating" - Clarence Kennedy.
sumo is not cheating bro
@@TheJackOfAllTrades777 sumo is known worldwide in ALL I repeat ALL powerlfting federations around the globe. stfu
*sad Lifting Vault noises*
The issue really is just powerlifting as a whole is based off lifts that aren’t supposed to be “performance” lifts and are tools for training, so get abused as much as possible to get more weight on the bar rather than doing them from their original s&c conceit/technical models
The sumo wasn't nearly as controversial until the deadlift bars came into play, and especially now with the Kabuki bar. More so than even the bio mechanics of the lifters themselves, sumo really takes advantage of the specifications of the new bars. Take it one step further outside of competitions, and the clout lifters are using straps and gripping even more narrow, and really taking advantage of the whip.
Yeah I think you are on to something. I DL conventional for many years and shunned sumo. When I started pulling some sumo I noticed that breaking the weight off the floor was by far the hardest part of Sumo, whereas Conventional the same weight would fly off the floor but get difficult above the knees (watch people's bar speed at different points in a lift). So, a very whippy bar basically let's a Sumo lifters skip the hard part entirely, but a conventional lifter doesn't get that advantage. They just need to use very stiff bars
Not a factor. Comp bars are all standardized. No kabuki in ipf. Nice try tho
@@nicky_hashtag4264 I didn't say it's a non issue on stiff bars, just wasn't "as controversial" until deadlift bars were implemented.
Not everyone competes under the IPF banner.
@@nicky_hashtag4264 lads we’ve found a sumo puller
@@jchapman1605if you fail lockout your position/setup is lackluster throughout the lift, it's biomechanically the easiest part
i have never seen a sumo wrestler deadlift
i've never seen a deadlifter sumo wrestle
I think sumo is fine if the ankles are under the knees at the start. It only really begins looking weird if the feet are (much) wider than that.
The entire debate is interesting to me as someone who started out as a powerlifter 15 years ago. Back then, just RAW was new and no one was talking about sumo being cheating. I first heard people say it (to the point that I remember it being a thing) maybe in 2018. I really think the noodly deadlift bar ultra wide stance thing is the issue. Someone I know sumo deadlifted 300 kg on a weightlifting bar with bumper plates but only got 270 on an Eleiko bar in competition. Now if you compare that to the Kabuki bar...
That's why (to my knowledge) it isn't a big debate in the IPF, unlike the bench thing.
🤓 uh but, I know john rando from bumfuq nowhere and his sumo pull (180kg) is lower than his conventional (185kg), therefore sumo is not cheating🤓
A bombshell topic there will be blood
Let's see 😂
there is this deadlift only comp once a year in a neighboring city...gonna get sika pull, prep up and compete there next year with my super long orang utan arms doing sumo with 2 cm ROM. Wish me luck.
In here after IPF teased rule changes for Sumo Deadlifts
@@snorlaxcom a few hours ago. People are already memeing about it
@@snorlaxcom that I’m wondering about too but the fact that people are buzzing over it means an official announcement may come soon
I pull sumo
After a year or so of struggling with conventional I switched to sumo and it just feels so much better
My back angle on conventional is literally horizontal, if I drop my hips then my shins are in the way, so move the bar forwards but now I'm off balance
For a while I stopped doing deadlifts completely, now sumo allows me to deadlift again in a way that feels natural
Just my two pence
I'm open to ideas around enforcing a vertical shin angle to prevent ultra wide stances and tiny ROM but as mentioned in the video, many people still prefer conventional and lift more with conventional so I don't think it's a big problem
I have the same issues with conventional. Short legs and arm and long torso.... I stubbornly pulled conventional for years as it's "more different" from squats than sumo. Then one day I went to a deadlift seminar and pulled sumo for the first time at the suggestion of the coach that had just spent 20min working with me on my conventional setup. After that first pull, he went and brought 2 other coaches over t I watch me and they were amazed that was my second sumo pull ever, all agreed I was absolutely built to pull sumo. And it truly did feel super smooth and natural even though I could only pull about 80% of my conventional pull weight.
Honestly that's why I no longer like powerlifting, it no longer feels like a contest of pure strength and more who has the most optimised technique.
You meant to write the title as " Why sumo is cheating"
😂
My primary issue with sumo deadlifting is that it just doesn't seem to carry over too much... like sumo pullers still rely very heavily on their conventional pull to drive their sumo up, whereas most of the time its not the other way around. I dont pick up farmers' handles in a sumo stance, I don't clean sumo, I dont walk sumo, I wouldn't do anything sumo aside from sumo... Yes, you can wide stance squat, but that's really only an equipped powerlifting thing and good luck having that work for you without a squat suit.
david woolson
@@CyrillicTM what about him?
A stone or sandbag lift is more of a sumo lift than conventional.
@Ostrolphant yes the hands are inside the feet out of nessesity but they legs aren't exactly in a sumo stance, the back angle is different and the mechanics are extremely different as picking an atlas stone is more a slightly wide leg press followed by immediately moving your feet closer together so you can rest the stone on your lap. Sumo deadlifting isn't making you any better at atlas stones or sandbags, the mechanics are just so different.
@@IsaacMorgan98plus lifting sandbags requires a big hinge at the hips so sumo still won’t carry over for that
One intersting aspect is that if you make your squat very low bar and with a wide stance, while at the same time doing sumo deadlifts with an upright torso, then you're essentially converging them towards the same trap bar deadlift like motor pattern, and in a full meet you could potentially end up fatiguing the same ranges of motion a lot more. This could explain why anomalies like John Haack pop up who have a very knee dominant squat and hip dominant deadlift.
@@TheJackOfAllTrades777 i.e. what most powerlifters do
Provided I still front squat and do my clean pulls, but my back squat suck (example only 10kg more than front) could deficit sumo deadlift replace the back squat as they hit similar muscles?
No. And probs just replace the front squat volume with backsquats and you’ll some more progress
Do one on straps , are straps cheating for deadlifts and snatches ie if you've deadlifted or snatched a pr with straps is it a pr or a strapped pr
Not even watched the video but yes.
The deadlift as an exercise is quite different from the sumo deadlift
The deadlift as an idea, i.e. lifting a heavy weight off of the ground should include both.
Is a split clean cheating? No, its objectively worse. Was squat cleaning cheating when it was first developed? Maybe. I have no idea.
Can you do a jefferson deadlift in comp if uou happen to be better at that?
If comps and federation have set rules for lifts already they should further clarify those rules to ban or accept variations of lifts e.g, hands cant be more than x distance wide in a bench, feet cant be more than x wide in a deadlift
Do you lose any functionality of the thumb when the "nerve endings die off" from hook grip?
Or what is the actual process through which hookgrip stops hurting
(Because I'm considering learning hookgrip but I don't want long term thumb death lmfao)
Actually wondering the same, i cant hook grip for shizz, its come to the point where my grip carries me and then i just use straps.
But a lot of people are hook gripping a deadlift bar which will be easier then a regular bar, see if that makes a difference.
@@ianpier16 no nothing like that, you just become slightly less sensitive. Don’t worry, it still hurts plenty 😅
It's not that big of a deal. I wouldn't worry about it. You won't be doing any irreversible incapacitating or anything.
Sumo is fine in the same way massive arch and wide grip on Bench. I would advocate for a maximum shin width for Sumo to standardize it much like grip width for bench or Clean & Jerk
I wasn't aware that cleans had a grip limit, I thought it was practicality.
Also for deadlift it would be tough to set a max shin width that was comprehensive across all weight classes
Been waiting for this for a long time
For me sumo deadlift is like a squat PR on a smith machine, you can lie to yourself all you want but we both know is not real 😂😂.
Almost spit my coffee out🤣
Thumbs up for the laughs!
Could you do a video on how to get a strong strict press. On UA-cam most of the info is strongman related
I’d like to see that as well. But as someone close to a 100kgs, my tip is volume, volume, volume. And to not be afraid of doing push presses to overload the movement.
@@dennisnordlund902 id argue frequency is overall better than volume. military press like the bench press responds better to higher frequency. we're talking 3x + a week.
Funny thing is today there was a post going round about IPF(main powerlifting fed) discussing evaluating sumo technique. It will be the same commitee that changed the bench rules.
If found guilty of sumo pulling in Sikastan, is the sentence life in prison, or death?
You will be sentenced to ohio
Speaking from personal experience, the easiest deadlift isn't allowed in competition which is sumo with straps. I had barely pulled sumo in my life, trained it for 1 week, then pulled 96% of my conventional mixed grip max using sumo with straps. I am totally confident that if I trained that lift I would exceed my conventional max. Seeing videos of guys ego lifting in the gym using sumo with straps is unimpressive to me for this reason.
However I don't think sumo on a stiff bar without straps provides a huge advantage. The noodle bars used it some feds vary too much and do provide an advantage to sumo pullers. Regardless, it's a different lift and I don't think it belongs in competition.
Is the split jerk cheating?
Top five favorite technicians in weightlifting!
This is a very recent debate! Sumo stance has always been permissible, and many of the greats, such as Mike Bridges and Walter Thomas, opted for it. But many other greats, such as Vince Anello and Lamar Gant, opted for conventional, when they could have done sumo. Ed Coan used both stances, as did Tom Eiseman. Read Fred Hatfield’s excellent book on powerlifting-body structure DOES have something to do with it. I’ve set masters American records in USAPL using both sumo and conventional, and can lift basically the same with either stance. I’ve normally opted for sumo because it’s a bit more comfortable for me.
I don't think any of this counters the fact that for most people sumo is an easier lift, and for everybody it is biomechanically different, so they shouldn't be compared imo
@@bruuhhhh While I agree that most find sumo more suitable, I disagree that the two styles shouldn't be compared. Some of the current great deadlifters choose conventional over sumo, both untested (Haack) and tested--Rondel Hunte, Russell Orhii, Ashton Rouska (who seems to be equally good at both). There's no need for separate competition--these guys are beating the sumo lifters.
Sumo deadlift is definitely prohibited inside of Sikastan
Both sides of the argument are snorting copium tbh. Sumo pullers won’t acknowledge that it’s an easier lift inherently for most of the population. conventional guys won’t acknowledge that they just might suck at deadlifting and need to train harder.
To add to this, one should try to keep the deficit between the two lifts as minimal as possible. If you pull 500 one way and 365 the other way, you have some weaknesses that should be addressed.
I don't know that it is an inherently easier lift. In fact in my experience lifting Sumo, breaking it off the floor is significantly harder than conventional, but the roles are reversed at lockout. That is, I'll never fail a Sumo that I can get to my knees, but I can break more weight off the floor conventional that I cannot lockout. As far as the competition debate goes, I just think you need to use very stiff bars, it is the floppy bars that let Sumo lifters basically skip the hard part.
@@jchapman1605 I personally think for a majority of people sumo is easier even on a squat bar, but it's pretty hard to prove either way
@@cheeks7050 you raise a good point but I think that goes without saying since I was talking about sumo and the video is about sumo. Being strict about ratios between lifts isn’t the most important thing but understanding the relationship between two lifts is. You can apply this to Jefferson’s, hacks, deficits etc if you want. Nothing stopping you.
@@cheeks7050 some weaknesses highlighted by the deficit are lat tightness, lower back strength, glute activation, issues with setup, quad/hamstring involvement. It’s very applicable. Seth Averseorth, Rauno Heinla and Jamal Browner put me on to this idea and through a couple sessions of sumo I’ve realized I have a weak lower back and glutes so I’m doing more back extensions and bent rows. Also my hips are tight asf.
*waits for Layne Norton to chime in*
Do you think training around your cycle (menstrual not PEDs, get your heads out of the gutter) is actually beneficial in weightlifting/powerlifting/the sports you know stuff about? I feel like this has become a new fitness influencer topic, and they seem to think yes, but that's just made me more suspicious.
Is there a reason to sumo if you’re happy conventionally deadlifting and don’t care about powerlifting numbers
Nope
Maybe if you're training for having your feet straddled over a dock and a boat and you have to pull up a really heavy anchor.
From a training perspective conventional is probably your better choice assuming you also do squats, since it is "more different" from squats than sumo DL
@@hamm0155 I had to pick up a heavy bag the other day and i naturally did a sort of sumo position lol
Everything I visit my parent’s house and get put to work digging something they are too old to do comfortably now I think about how similar my stance is to sumo. When you’re pulling a tree stump out of a hole it is basically a deficit sumo pull. I almost never have the same feeling about a conventional deadlift stance but I’m sure the hip hinge strength translates a lot anyway.
Well said. It's not literally cheating in an organized competition where the rules allow for it, but if you're telling an acquaintance how much you deadlift and it's sumo, I think you should say it's how much you "sumo deadlift" not how much you "deadlift". I think it's like doing "cheat reps" on any other lift. If you put English on your press or you don't bring it down to your collarbone, then that's not doing a press in terms of what you have achieved.
Yes, it should be treated as a different lift. You have more leverage over the bar.
Depending on your biomechanical leverages, you might be able to have more leverage over the bar.
Maybe refrain over broad overgeneralizations.
Is this still a debate? If sumo is the same as conventional why is snatch grip dl not in the same boat ? It's basically the same thing but it's the arms not the legs that's wide.
@@cheeks7050 Then i expect to see a whole lot more snatch grip dl in powerlifting. Cuz it's the same and it's not cheating.
My conv deadlift beltless is 242.5kg , sumo cant pull more then 140kg for the love of god i feel like im gonna blow my hip out....
Alex bromley did a great video explaining why its cheating too it's a great watch
So is a wide grip bench press cheating? What about a wide stance squat? Why not impose rules for all 3 lifts
A friend competed at powerlifting and she could NOT train sumo... Lomg arms, long legs, long fingers (great grip). She got hurt every time, only conventional was ok... 🤷🏼♀️ I guess she couldn't "cheat" even if she wanted to ....
so wide stance squat also be separated from close stance?
I'd argue firstly wide stance squats are a much more similar more similar movement to narrow stance than sumo to conventional, but also as the hip crease still needs to go below the knee it has a lesser impact on ROM
@@bruuhhhh how much do u skwaat
@@catedoge3206 is that relevant? What number would make you decide I'm worth listening to?
@@bruuhhhh i judge people based on their atg paused squat. it takes a certain kind of person to pursue atg pause squat singles.
Could you talk about the chances of a weightlifter becoming a high level lifter while not taking peds?
0%
as long as you do your cardio with no hands and eat plenty of duck eggs
@ASTA test in the water
@ASTA edamame beans
What is high level and when did you start attempting to become a pro weightlifter?
So subjective as everyone has different principles. On one hand it’s understandable why many see it as a bastardization from the pure movement. On the other hand it’s not fair to punish those who show up to competitions with a win-at-all-costs mentality, especially when it’s allowed as per the rules. At the end of the day all sport is contrived and the winning athletes will always be defined by the rules ie what they can get away with.
Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
The aesthetics is why I support the lockout rule. Weightlifting would be ugly like kipping pull ups if the pressout was allowed.
It's a different exercise from conventional.
Not cheating but definitely a different lift. All you have to do is look at the sun 93kg/205lb weight classes at the top level and you'll see that sumo makes up a much greater proportion of lifters.
It doesn't make sense to say that all top lifters just happen to pull sumo. I think the logical conclusion is that for those weight classes, sumo allows you to pull more.
Front squats are harder than back squats. Are back squats cheating then?
For da Algo.
Even sumo wrestlers do not the "sumo deadlift" haha
I am curious why powerlifting has a trend for naming things incorrectly haha
Powerlifting should be renamed strength lifting haha
Are you one of Rips boys? You sound like one of Rips boys
I’ve always compared sumo deadlifting to butterfly pull ups in CrossFit. The standards for deadlift are to lift the weight off the floor and fully extend knees and hips and to hit the highest possible weight. Sumo allows some people to hit those standards more efficiently. The pull up standards in CrossFit are to get your chin over the bar and arms fully extended at the bottom and most CrossFit workouts are for time or as many reps in a certain amount of time. Butterfly pull ups are the most efficient way to achieve this
Soooo a Sumo Deadlift with a whippy bar is 'really cheating', buuuuut its OK for Snatches and Clean & Jerks??🤔🤔🤔
As much as split jerk is to squat jerk.
I still don’t see why people don’t just look at it physics wise. Work = Force x Distance, and in conventional the bar goes a farther distance than in sumo. So therefore there’s more work involved in conventional, case closed.
Not necessarily
Edit: for instance, my Sumo ROM is indistinguishable from my conventional. But I'm also using it to train, not show off, so that might have something to do with it.
@@jchapman1605 right. But someone who competes with sumo will be absolutely sure their ROM is shorter to lift the most weight lol
Dan green exists
if it was that much easier for everyone why doesn't just everyone do it?
any real competitor uses every single advantage they can get :)
ivan djuric squat analysis
In the words of the #1 powerlifter, John Haack, "I think people should worry more about how much weight they're picking up than how wide someone else's legs are."
Sumo on stiff bar isn't much different than wide grip benches with big arches.
It can de done cheesy. It can be done fairly.
But most people are also heavily against wide grip contortionist bench press, hence the IPF rule changes.
Yes, it is like that and that doesn't make it respectable.
So we need some stats on how often it is use at competition and how often the winner used sumo deadlift... it is not relevant what you believe people are strongest with. We got those stats so talk about reality and not your thought experiment.
What I got from Gurph: Those who sumo deadlift are morally bankrupt and deserve to be sent to Sikastan's Re-education Camps.
sumo and conventional ARE NOT THE SAME> pure and simple.
Just let Conventional lifter hitch it up like they want to and call it a fair game !!
Sumo does not express strength as honestly as conventional does.
Sumo is cheating for deadlifting as arching the back like a pretzel is cheating for bench pressing.
Sumo = smelly doo doo
Sumo = less range of motion = easier. It’s just a short cut lift and should not be called a deadlift. If it was just called a sumo pull it would be absolutely fine. But it can’t be chucked in with a raw conventional deadlift, it’s disrespectful.
Lemme guess, disrespectful because people pull more than you?
It's not less range of motion or easier in every case. It's relative to each person. People may be able to place their legs absurdly wide, but that isn't actually the strongest position of power for a sumo stance deadlift.
Disrespectful to who?
If I train strictly conventional, my sumo gets stronger. If I strictly train sumo, my conventional doesn't really get better.
Powerlifter logic. Sumo deadlift is cheating but bouncing the bar off your fat powerlifter belly is solid form.
If sumo is cheating then lowbar is cheating
Not really cheating but no one cares for it, until some kid pulls sumo so wide, it lifts a centimeter off the ground…..then it’s garbage.
Sumo isn't cheating but it is gay and nowhere near as valid or a display of full body strength as conventional. 9.9 times out of 10 a 700lb conventional deadlifter is going to have a stronger back, core, and lower body than a 700lb sumo deadlifter. Legal in comp, but less functional and hypertrophic overall.
"Sumo isn't cheating if it's allowed in the rules" then that means you think steroids is cheating because it's not allowed. Checkmate, atheist! 😁
Is plagiarism cheating? Don't get caught doing it and no one has to know
Like 80 percent of deadlifters sumo cos they have no idea how to actually train their legs or their backs.
Sumo is not cheating, Sumo is illegal in Sikastan!
sumo isn't cheating because i pull more sumo
Should definitely be in a different class in all fairness.
IMO low bar squatting instead of high bar is more of a cheat compared to sumo deadlifting instead of conventional. Seen powerlifters who can make 215kg low bar look really solid and then the same lifter does 160kg high bar and it looks like an RPE 11.
I don't watch all that much powerlifting, but from what i've seen it's far more rare to see high bar squatters than it is conventional deadlifters, but for some reason all of the focus is on sumo. I guess it's just that low bar squat is "acceptable" and the normal way to squat in the sport and high bar is something that weightlifters & bodybuilders do 😂.
Low bar is more similar to the squat then sumo is to the deadlift, sumo is as different a back squat is to a front squat
@@callmeacutekitten8106 How so? In appearence they might be more similiar, but in muscle activation low bar and high bar squats are very different. In the low bar squat the quadriceps take less load as it is shifted onto the posterior chain, and rather than a leg focused exercise it becomes a leg/back hybrid lift.
In sumo and conventional the appearence differs more, but the amount of musle activation is much more similiar. Sumo sees more quadriceps activation whereas conventional sees more hamstrings activation. And then, depending on your leverages, stance etc, you may see more activation in your upper back or glutes in one of the lifts, but fact is that the muscle activation and amount of total muscle mass involved is significantly more similiar in the two deadlift variations compared to the two squat variations.
thats a stupid take.. then how do you differentiate between ultra wide close grp bench or ultra wide squats
Sumo is a disgrace for the powerlifting federation
You don't lift a sofa with conventional. I'm gonna argue sumo is more functional than conventional.
Sumo is just a different lift. It requires a different set of skills and mobility. Honestly with its emphasis on hip mobility, oly lifters should incorporate them more
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Don't. ever. say. that. again.
Look at these conventional peasants(laughs-in working sets of 230kg for 10).
The dumbest thing I keep hearing about sumo, is the reduced ROM propoganda. Its still 400kilos being held and lifted. Sumo is cheating but it seems most people who say this don't understand why that is the case.
Some of these knee cap kings abuse the rom sumo
Wth are you going on about. If you take one person and measure how far the barbell moves during sumo vs conventional. The barbell travels higher in conventional. Moving a barbell higher/further requires more absolute force generation. It's simple physics. A barbell moved further requires more work. lifting at its most basic premise is weight x the distance it moves = work being done.
U can lift a higher load in a rack pull than a full deadlift , you can always pull more weight in lower ROMs I don’t see how this argument is dumb
@@thepeatboggy is that because of the fact your body is in a better position because of the various angles and moment angles of the joints in better positions or is it just because of the ROM. That's like saying you can quarter squat more than you can atg squat. No shit Sherlock. It's not because of the distance traveled. It's the fact that quarter squats don't stretch your individual sarcomeres as much and the angles of your joints at the end range of motion are more advantageous in terms of force production around them. The shorter ROM is a confounding variable.
@@thicccboyztv this is like people misquoting Newton's 3rd Law of motion.
When preforming a deadlift many muscles in the body are producing a force at various angles about their associated joints. You got your quads extending the knee, the hams and glutes flexing about the hip. Little bit of ham flexion about the knee. Lower back muscles keeping the spine neutral and many more. The various muscle produce a net force the is upwards and inwards. You aren't just pulling the bar up. Sumo alters the positions of these forces and the various levels of stretch in these muscles sarcomeres, to put the body in a much more advantageous position to produce the energy necessary to lift the barbell.
W=Fd is misused here as this equation expressly talks about displacement. Throwing a barbell to the moon and upon reentry it lands 1m above the position it was thrown from is exactly the same work down as just deadlifting it and it moves 1m. Sumo or conventional. What's important to the person is the energy (chemical potential energy from chemicals or hormones in your blood, tensile energy from muscles fibres or any other energies used up to move that barbell) used to get to that barbell to that point. An incredibly grindy 160kg that last 7 seconds and has form breakdown so bad physios around the world get a boner, is far more taxing than a 160 with efficient form.
The Uber wide sumo stance makes the pull easier, because you get to start with a back closer to perpendicular with the ground (lower back muscles aren't under as much tension to keep the spine neutral) and the hips closer to the bar (hip hinge angle is greatly reduced). Yes this reduces the ROM but much, much more importantly, it puts your body in a better position to produce the necessary forces to lift stuff in that position.
In summary, Sumo reduces the energy required to move a barbell a distance. Work done is just about displacement. Yes the ROM is reduced but this is a confounding factor as a result of the body and the various joints and muscles being in better positions to create the necessary energy to produce that force.
POV: Weightlifters talking about a sport they have never done. Both of you are wrong with your takes and analogies. Banning sumo would be like banning a squat jerk. Thats the equivalent. Not those stupid analogies "comparing OHP with a bench" or "cars vs bikes" . Did you even turn your brain on today?
"If you can pull it off, you might be stonger than the conventional way." This is the only way you can and should look at sumo vs conventional. Sumo leaves less margin for error and you get rewarded by a physically more efficient lift. Thats the end of the discussion boys. Nice 10 minutes of talking absolute garbage.
Who said anything about banning? It's a different lift from conventional and should be judged accordingly. Don't get mad at them because your conventional deadlift is ass.
so you heard 10s of the video, disagreed with the analogies they came up with on the spot, spent more time writing a comment shitting on a soundbite than watching the video and gave yourself a pat on the back. How well did I do describing what happened?
the squat jerk is even harder. HAHA
POV: Lifter who stop weightlifting and became a powerlifter (easy way) because of excuses.
@Darko Ale high bar squat is different than low bar, so should we ban low bar squats?
Short answer: Yes
Long answer: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssssseeeesssssssssssss