I feel like Camilla was making a top 10 games that deserve more love, Tom was making a top 10 game changers, and Chris was actually making a list of games that should be mentioned at least once in the BGG top 10. Loved the conversation as always!
I sort of get Camilla’s argument to get more approachable games into the top 10, but it really felt like she made a list of best gateway games instead.
I felt like it was a list of the top ten games someone recently played with friends, and not a top ten of all time. All fine, recent games. But I don't understand the angle she approached the list from.
@@jasonc2784 I mean. That's what a gateway game is. A modern boardgame that is approachable for people not into the hobby. Something decent and modern you can hopefully bring to Uno or Monopoly night without getting everyone annoyed at you.
@@FelipeRodrigues-vj1zb Different strokes. draftosaurus is nearly a 10 out of 10 for me. Small games can still be perfect games, I think it's one of those.
people remember that the Dominion has come out both on Android and iOS including all the expansions so don't go wasting your money on the physical version
This top 10 is such a good idea! I even think it has year-end potential. Would love to hear what Zee's, Mike's, and Roy's picks are for the top 10 as well.
I never, ever comment on Dice Tower videos (though I’ve watched almost every single one of them) but I must say… Chris your comparison of games to albums was amazing. I can totally see how you tied your picks to the albums. It was so thoughtful and on the money. I’d like to propose a series of videos where Chris just ties classic albums to games. I’d pay to watch that. Well done. Loved this list.
Chris as a music fan I gotta say the album references had me repeatedly pointing at my phone and agreeing aloud. I know those won't land with many viewers but I appreciated them big time 👍 creative way to lend more insight on your list
It's a great game, but I don't know about top 10. It feels like one of the best games from 2000. Just too dry on theme. Any game in the top 10 has be be great in all areas, and to me that means a great game with great theme. It's not enough to just one and be in the top 10.
I think the trouble is that he equates a slightly obscure board game to The Beatles when in reality its like comparing it to a local band that only do local gigs
@@danteshydratshirt2360 It's an analogy though, so it's comparing Ra within Knizia's games to a Beatles album within their music. That's the whole point. I'm not saying it's a perfect analogy, but it's interesting.
Camilla clearly was making an entirely different list… should have been tipped off by her initial statement that she had no idea what rank they were currently on BGG. Top 10 games that deserve to be ranked in the BGG top 10… games that are objectively the best of the best, in her opinion - and she’s making a “recommendations for new gamers” list apparently… then picking mostly obscure games that are far from the best of their kind. Don’t get me wrong, I think she picked some good games - I’d agree with Quacks of Quedlinburg, and I suspect if I played Destinies I would also agree (Chronicles of Crime is up there). I do like Obscurio, but I’m not sure if it’s quite top 10. To be fair, I haven’t played all the games, but of the others listed here, I definitely agree with Ticket to Ride, Pandemic, Azul, Root, Caverna, Viticulture, Wingspan, Codenames, the Crew, and probably even Magic the Gathering. I haven’t played Dominion, but we have been loving Thunderstone Quest, and that definitely deserves to be up there, so the classic deck-builder makes sense.
Only watched the intro so far, but I feel like this might be one of my most favorite TDT Top 10 lists ever!! I love how each person explained their thought process regarding how to approach the list, and I love the insight on how people view "highly rated games" in general. We'll see how well it comes through for me.
As a music nerd and board game nerd I really appreciated Chris'comparing games to music and albums. He was also very eclectic in his choices. One of my fav top 10s.
Chris, I (and everyone else watching this brilliance) think your music/game analogies are FANTASTIC! Always do your reviews and stuff just like you did this one! Bravo!
So I started the list frustrated at Camilla's logic. But then I realized the logic is completely sound, just coming from a different place. Tom and Chris seemed to make their lists based on what "deserves" to be in the top 10, looking at the top 10 as what it is meant to be, the top 10 games. But Camilla's list is saying, yes the it is the top 10 games, but the top 10 is often used by people as a billboard for games to play or try. So she isn't saying that the games deserve to be in the top 10, but that she wishes they were anyway because people would play them more and that would be good for hobby. So not saying they are the best games ever, but that they should be on that billboard.
Expected For Sale to show up here - for what it is, I think it is nearly a perfectly designed game. Scales well, plays quick, can be explained in 3 minutes. There really aren't any flaws with the design.
I love these top 10s. They always intro me to something new, and with this one, awesome games I hadn't thought of. Great Lists all, and I agree, no room for snobs. We are all just here trying to have some good old fashion fun. Looking forward to the next list :)
Chris' additional music album list... 10 - Beatles - Rubber Soul 9 - Metallica - Master of Puppets 8 - The Bodyguard OST (or generally movie soundtracks) 7 - Tool - Lateralus 6 - Ramones - Ramones 5 - AC/DC - Back to Black 4 - Pink Floyd - The Wall 3 - Red Hot Chilli Peppers - Californication 2 - Marvin Gaye - What's Going On 1 - Led Zeppelin - IV
I was skeptical of the interest of this top 10 list, based solely on the title, but wow was I proven wrong! Kudos to Camilla, Chris and Tom for the insightful lists and fun banter. I have to commend Camilla on the out-of-the-box thinking for her list. What I find interesting are not so much her specific choices (although totally agree about Quacks and Jamaica), but rather that Camilla approached the list as a way of filling in important blanks on the BGG 10. i.e. not each game needs to be a sprawling epic strategy game, so what would be a key party game, family-weight push your luck, drafting, racing, dexterity, etc? Totally turned the top 10 on its head and I was 100% on board for this. Especially since you had Tom and Chris covering the list from a more "traditional" stance. Well, actually - I think Tom went a touch too meta with his list by the time he got to the top 5. Nothing wrong there, but I think to simplify things I would have stuck with the "spirit" of the BGG target arena: modern designer board games. So games like Monopoly, Dungeons & Dragons, Warhammer, Magic, Chess, Go, etc would all be out of consideration. Making a statement like that at the beginning would have acknowledged whatever subset of those you feel deserved mention, and would have made for perhaps a more focused list (as well as more designer board game choices, such as Dixit which you mentioned early on). Still a great list from Tom otherwise, and I thought Ticket to Ride at #1 was an inspired choice. Kemet! Ra! With these two choices alone I have to give Chris the nod for the list that's the most near and dear to my heart, but I also think his list was consistently good throughout; my favourite type of album is one where you can hit play at the beginning and do something else without skipping a track because they'd all be hits. A few albums come to mind but for Chris, you are Guns 'n' Roses' Appetite for Destruction. ;) I think the BGG top 10 is not bad as it currently stands, and I do agree with many of the Dice Tower's (and People's) choices. Other candidates I can think of would be Tigris & Euphrates and Kingdomino: Origins (OG is fine, but Origins is nearly identical and comes w/ built-in expansions for more play). Honorable mention goes to X-Wing Miniatures (v 1.0, as a casual gamer). Leaving it out because the game now seems to be in a shambles unfortunately. I wouldn't even know how to advise someone to get into it nowadays.
Agree with another commenter, Camila basically made a list of games she likes that she feels are good intros to new(ish) gamers for different mechanics. Not a Top 10 of All Time list. Totally subjective though, so I'm not trying to bash that. Just seems like she went in a completely different direction than Chris and Tom. Best picks in my worthless opinion (from their lists) - Ticket to Ride, Wingspan, MTG, Azul, Root, Pandemic/Legacy, Agricola, Quacks, Dominion, Codenames.
BGG should have some sort of Hall of Fame where gateway games reign supreme. They may not be as refined as the newer ones but they are less daunting to newbies and bring more people to the hobby than any flashy, overproduced box of plastic bits. BGG rankings as well as Dice Tower top 100s, are often disproportionately represented by the cult of the new.
The BGG ranking for Family games is probably the closest thing to what you are talking about. It’s still not perfect though. I suppose it should include games like Catan, Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride, 7 Wonders etc.
I've played 100s of games of Root both on the app and TTS and in-person so I can safely say it's my comfort game. It has a really high barrier of entry so getting to that point of feeling very comfortable with all the mechanics and interactions of the asymmetrical factions takes some time to be sure. BUT, once you and your play group arrive at that point, I promise you there is not better game. When you understand the game (which at its core isn't even that complex) there's so much room for fascinating synergy, intricate combos and table talk beyond what you can find in most any other game. Getting to that point takes time and it's certainly not a game for everyone but for people who get sucked in by the asymmetry and theme, it's a game with near infinite possibilities.
I love the idea of Root. I played it once, and immediately decided I wouldn't play it again. As a "very serious" gamer, its just one that I felt that without understanding how all the races at the table played, I was just kinda playing blind, and it really bothered me. So I'd have two options. A, I could just not play it. Or B, I could play it enough to learn all the races (2-3 games per race), and then be enjoying it. Tack on the fact that its a fairly long playtime game, and the plethora of other games that I enjoy playing as much or more, and it just wasn't worth it to me. I think it's a pretty great game, but just doesn't work well for me.
Just wanted to say that I truly appreciated the thought that Chris put into his list. Comparing them to albums was absolutely perfect. Loved the analogy!
I feel that Camila made a different list than the other two.. It is a great personal list for welcoming games to the hobby. I am just not sure it aligned with the title of the video unfortunately.
I understand the logic. Lots of people who are getting into boardgames will look at the top 10 expecting the games with the broadest appeal, when what they actually get is the most loved games by hardcore/experienced gamers. It's a different reading of the title, but I think it's valid.
I love Chris's musical comparisons. As a music lover myself his comparisons are spot on and very well thought out. Kudos to you Chris!!! Well done sir, well done!
I think, Ticket to Ride has bigger flaws than Catan. People rave about TtR having fast turns, so you get always involved. But that's not true, SU&SD showcased it brilliantly: very often your only valid option is drawing two cards from the top of the deck, hoping for a wild, and getting frustrated by the useless cards you draw instead. And if there are no useful cards in display, it might be, that you do have to do this ten turns in a row, meaning you have 10 rounds of gameplay with no meaningful decision. It can get very frustrating and boring, and I didn't have lots of game, where it did not go this route for at least a couple of players. For me, it is so boring, it even surprised me, that the actual playtime is shorter, than I initially estimated, after at least a dozen of plays. I thought it to be a 75 to 90 minute game, while in fact, if you look on the watch, it's actually rather 45 minutes to an hour. Catan has kind of a catch up in, that if you are in an unfavourable position from the beginning, people likely do trades, you profit more from than themselves, as long as they at least get some profit from it. I like it much more, but neither of them can compete with Carcassonne or Azul for me.
I can relate to most of Tom's choices. and some of Chris'. but for Camilla, I think we are not on the same page. and I would like to know Zee and Mike choices.
I think Camilla misunderstands what the Top Ten Games on BGG means. It's not about the games that gets people into the hobby nor about different mechanisms representative of the board game hobby. She did a Top Ten Games that best Represents its Game Mechanism List. Not a Top Ten Games of ALL TIME ON BGG List.
Chris Yi! I’m seriously interested in your top 10 albums. Board games and music are my two passions. My buddy (also an avid board gamer) made his top 100 albums and recently motivated me to do the same. I love hearing others lists, but most people don’t care enough to have one.
I highly disagree with Camilla that the top 10 on BGG should be welcoming games for beginners. That's like saying Transformers should be in the top 10 of IMDB instead of The Godfather. When I started on the hobby I found out that the best way to enter it is to ask for recommendations of light games and just play them, not to play the best ranked on BGG.
Honestly, she made a different list. If she thinks those are the ten greatest board games ever made... well, they just aren't. Not by any objective standard.
Chris, at first I cringed a bit when you said you'd have a music analogy for each pick. Then with each pick.. you completely changed my mind. Very creative and well thought out. Bravo.
Castle Panic should be in the top 10. It was a big success with my 6 years old nephew, with a group of teenagers and a group of 30-something years old.
Camilla's Pandemic Legacy move was the boldest move in a Top Ten I've ever seen. And I've been watching for more than a decade. Definitely an expert gamer move: "the rules don't say that I can't do that".
CHRIS! Talking about "Master of Puppets" makes me happy. The first 4 Metallica albums WERE so good and still ARE so good. I was so happy when I heard the title track on Stranger Things because so many young people NEED to hear these albums. Anyway...thank you for that! You're game picks were also great (I wanted to make a joke about them being garbage, but they were great!)
Just listening to him describing those albums and then making the comparison with the board games was so fun, I just needed to make a playlist in that order.
I would love to see a list where they replace each of the BGG top 10 with a game they like better that is in a similar category. For example, if I were doing it,Terraforming Mars is an engine builder, and I would say I like Fantastic Factories (another engine builder) better.
I'm not sure that I understand the assignment either. By Tom's own explanation (which I just watched), what he did was "Top 10 Underrated Games," because his #1 was the furthest from the BGG Top 10.
Tom's makes the most sense to me. Games that have become modern classics that everyone plays. I think Camilla was trying to do underrated games in general.
I think Camilla is a good addition to the Dice Tower crew on the whole, but her Top 10s are very quirky. Of course she can put what she wants on them, but of course we don't have to like it.
I feel like Camilla’s choices were more her personal faves, or maybe more appropriate in a “somewhat underrated games” list. Just didnt make sense in the context of this particular top 10. Chris’s made the most sense honestly, or Tom’s I suppose. (And personally I actually prefer the games on her list to his).
Chris, wow, new respect. Have to put on Puppets now. Thank you - loved it and so good to see you push the boat out a bit and create some external reference points.
The last time I went to BGG was to see if there was information on a Kickstarter game I was checking out. I’m new to this hobby and still learning. As I read the reviews, I realized a lot of people (who had never played the game) were rating it a “1” because they didn’t like a particular aspect of the components. This was followed by people (who had never played the game) rating it a “10” to, “balance the negative reviews”. New gamer, advanced gamer, light gamer, board game geek…it doesn’t matter when games are being reviewed that way. Why would you review a book if you haven’t even cracked the cover? There’s none of that mess at The Dice Tower. This was an informative video without any of the “games”. Thank you Camilla, Chris and Tom.
I would love if BGG maintained a "Welcome to this hobby Top 10…". Something that continues to update as new games replace the great entry point games by some newer games that 'do it better'. Great lists team. Chris, I enjoyed the music analogies. Well thought out and articulated. 👍😃
Oh my word this would be incredible. One of my first attempts at getting into the hobby involved me trying to just get games that are ranked high on bgg, and I just got burnt out by how big some of them are, and going from playing video games to board games where all of a sudden I had to have all the rules in my head was something I had not taken into account. The game for me that really helped bridge that gap was probably Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition. The app helped make it so much easier to wrap my head around things.
I enjoyed the friendly banter between these three. Loved Camilla's unconventional choices, Chris' music correlations and Tom jokingly leaning into the "old man" role. Looking forward to more lists, love you guys!
I was so excited to see Agricola getting some love! Then a bit sad immediately afterwards 😂 I think Agricola gets dismissed a lot because Caverna exists but its still such a good game in its own right. Its the game that brought me into the hobby so I will always love it!
OK, I guess it depends on the criteria set. My criteria is that, for a game to be in the top 10, it must be at least 10 years old (and should probably be 20 years old) and have staying power. It should still be popular and played heavily and probably have been reprinted and modified/expanded in those years and, as a bonus, it should not have been surpassed...at least not too much (which leaves out Dominion). The older the game, the ,pre complex it can be because there will be more veteran players available to teach it. So, that includes MTG (which I love), Cosmic Encounters (which I hate), Ticket to ride (which I do not like), Pandemic (which I love - and there lots of variants and expansions), and Twilight Imperium (which I am lukewarm about). I'd have to think about the rest but I definitely do not include only gaes which I love. I would include Illuminati (which I love compared to Cosmic Encounter) but it is nowhere near as mainstream. I would also include Star Fleet Battles but there's probably not enough people around who play it. Excluded games include Chess, Go and Monopoly because they haven't been improved at all in recent years. A game must adapt with the time and those games are no good for modern times.
@@ralfn9629 The game of Go I played in 1979 had the exact same rules as the game I played in 2008. So, no, Go has not been improved. You have not disproved my point. You have just disagreed with me.
Ok I have thoughts. Chris I loved your list more than I have loved any top 10 y'all have done. The music analogies were spot on. Chris I will play power grid with you at dice tower west next year. Camilla I need to familiarize myself with the games on your list. I haven't played most of them. Tom I LOVE ❤️ your idea for a hall of fame so much. Start doing it at one of the dice tower cons every year. A game can only go in after 10 years of eligibility and have the designers there to accept the honor and give a speech max 5 games a year. Initial class for me would be magic, catan, ticket to ride, pandemic, dominion, and sure throw chess in there. Have a grandmaster accept the award.
Favorite moment: “My number eight is Caverna!” -Tom. Hahahaha! Also love that each member interprets the list differently. That’s the genius of this list, whether on purpose or not.
At least by osmosis you should have heard the name Pink Floyd, I think my dad almost had an aneurysm when I told him all the bands Tom didn't even have an idea of who they were.
Love the Chris Yi music analogies - I relate to everything through music as well and the music analogies made it so I could feel the emotional experience of these games.
Great idea for a video! I would love to see something similar for the "family" rankings on BGG. The family list on BGG also leans too heavy in my opinion.
Tom's point about Gloomhaven vs Azul and how people rate gates low vs not playing them at all is pretty great. Not to say Gloomhaven isn't great, but it being so huge and unapproachable and a very obvious "you know if you're looking for a game like this, or not" type experience, while also being great, probably lends it a great deal of protection from being dragged away from the top spot.
I think bgg skews heavier (or why the top 100 is what it is) is because people that like those games rate them high and most people will know they're not going to like those games, so they don't play them. So they don't get rated by people who otherwise would've given something a 5 let's say.
I LOVE Chris' music analogies- maybe that's because they align with my taste but still. It makes his thought process really accessible- even where I don't agree with all the conclusions. Would love to see other people try to relate great games to great music/movies/TV/whatever.
Did we ever get a Hall of Fame video? I’m not seeing one. I’ve been looking for a “Top XXX of all Time” list that’s not just someone’s individual personal favorites. Much more interested to hear about Carcassonne, Catan, Pandemic, Ticket to Ride, etc and hear arguments for how and why the G.O.A.T.-ers should be composed and ranked as they are. Not just for right here and now, but for the long haul and for their impact, innovation, elegance, and execution. I want to hear experts debating over if and where Tigris and Euphrates should rank, and why or why not it would be beaten out by a Puerto Rico or a Twilight Struggle. I want to hear informed discussion about how and why Go and Chess should be ranked and whether or not something like Monopoly has a place on the list. More of Agricola, Ra, Jamaica, Quacks, Power Grid, Dominion, MTG, etc please. I absolutely want that top 100 movies type list that rates Citizen Cane and Casablanca and Lawrence of Arabia in the top 10-20 along with modern classics like the Godfather and Jaws. Because maybe those are movies someone born in the 1990’s hasn’t seen, but they are absolutely movies ANY film buff should go back and see. The works of Stanley Kubrick are going to outlive the importance and relevance of the MCU, as a whole, even if the MCU has been enjoyable and culturally relevant and deserves some recognition and representation there (One could say the same thing about Friday the 13th…). But just because I’d rather watch Endgame most days compared to anything by Alfred Hitchcock doesn’t mean that it should rank as a better movie than Psycho or the Birds. I’m so much less interested in any list that’s going to have Oppenheimer, Barbie, and a bunch of Marvel movies on the top 10. Everything, Everywhere, All at Once was a great film, but if that’s number 3 of all time I am going to be immediately skeptical… Sure, everyone can and should like what they like, and one job of a REVIEWER is to help people find things they will enjoy. But also, there’s the responsibility of CRITIC to offer some critical analysis that is honest, at least tries to be objective, and takes into account that broader scope and deeper assessment than the current trends or personal preferences. Top XXX Favorite Games has a place and can and should change a lot. Top XXX GREATEST games OF ALL TIME is what I’m interested in. There’s lots of reviewing going on at Dice Tower, I’d like to see a few more critics.
I never have that a person on the Top 10 have a clean sweep with me whereby I agree with every pick, but Tom did it. His list is completely on point. I cannot disagree with any of his picks. Well done, sir
Definitely waiting for a sci-fi version of Destinies, Sleeping Gods, etc. Pretty much every fantasy themed high rated game I'm just waiting for a sci-fi version.
Chris' musical explanations were an absolute win in this video. They were well-stated, and brought a different feel to the explanations. This is easily one of the best top 10 lists in a while.
Typically love Camilla, but this was not the list for her. I could name 100 games that are more deserving of being in the top 10 than any on her list. Dixit over Obscurio, Mansions over Destinies, Sushi go over draftosaurus. Oh, other than pandemic season 1. I agree with her there, but it is already there. For party games alone, codenames, just one, taboo, wavelength. For gateway games, ticket to ride, Azul, lords of Waterdeep, Stone Age, forbidden island, villainous, one night ultimate werewolf. And I haven’t even started with medium to heavy games.
Absolutely great pick with magic the gathering Tom. I think it is 100% the best tabletop game. I only don’t play anymore because of the enormous financial cost to stay participating
I feel like Camilla was making a top 10 games that deserve more love, Tom was making a top 10 game changers, and Chris was actually making a list of games that should be mentioned at least once in the BGG top 10. Loved the conversation as always!
How does "Quacks of Quedlinburg" deserve even more love than it already gets?
@@joeferreti9442 Fair point. I feel like Quacks and Pandemic Season 1 may be the only exceptions.
one of 10? comon@@joeferreti9442
yeah I dont think at all that she get the memo. Super wierd top 10
This Top10 was like a game of Root. 3 different factions doing something completely different together in the same space. I loved it!
Bahahaha yes!
Totally
Great analogy, I agree.
Best comment!
Every time Camilla names her next game, you can see Tom die a little on the inside. 🤣
Its how i felt every time Tom spoke of music.
Destinies was a great number 1, I thought she had the best #1
I found that enjoyable to watch.
I sort of get Camilla’s argument to get more approachable games into the top 10, but it really felt like she made a list of best gateway games instead.
I felt like it was a list of the top ten games someone recently played with friends, and not a top ten of all time. All fine, recent games. But I don't understand the angle she approached the list from.
Yeah, a bunch of 7/10 games. Draftosaurus is a 5/10 at best.
@@FelipeRodrigues-vj1zb but I can get Draftosaurus to the table with kids that is better than Uno.
@@jasonc2784 I mean. That's what a gateway game is. A modern boardgame that is approachable for people not into the hobby. Something decent and modern you can hopefully bring to Uno or Monopoly night without getting everyone annoyed at you.
@@FelipeRodrigues-vj1zb Different strokes. draftosaurus is nearly a 10 out of 10 for me. Small games can still be perfect games, I think it's one of those.
Would love to see Zee, Roy, and Mike do this list as well! :)
Me too! Especially if they did what Chris did and reference music (or other things like movies or something else).
Roy would likely have Marvel Champions on his list 😛
people remember that the Dominion has come out both on Android and iOS including all the expansions so don't go wasting your money on the physical version
This top 10 is such a good idea! I even think it has year-end potential. Would love to hear what Zee's, Mike's, and Roy's picks are for the top 10 as well.
I never, ever comment on Dice Tower videos (though I’ve watched almost every single one of them) but I must say… Chris your comparison of games to albums was amazing. I can totally see how you tied your picks to the albums. It was so thoughtful and on the money.
I’d like to propose a series of videos where Chris just ties classic albums to games. I’d pay to watch that.
Well done. Loved this list.
Exactly! Tool - Root was just the perfect analogy
Chris as a music fan I gotta say the album references had me repeatedly pointing at my phone and agreeing aloud. I know those won't land with many viewers but I appreciated them big time 👍 creative way to lend more insight on your list
same here! that was lovely and very creative!
Same here.
...and it was amusing that the other two were clueless
The only game that stands out that wasn’t mentioned is Concordia. Definitely deserves a top 10 spot.
thanks for the spoiler
@@hucz lol they said in the video to comment with such things.
It's a great game, but I don't know about top 10. It feels like one of the best games from 2000. Just too dry on theme. Any game in the top 10 has be be great in all areas, and to me that means a great game with great theme. It's not enough to just one and be in the top 10.
But not The Castles of Burgundy or Orleans?
@@joshmartonosi5624 Those are even more dry than Concordia.
I appreciated Chris' album analogies! They were really well thought out.
Another great list everyone!
Exactly, I love Chris!
I think the trouble is that he equates a slightly obscure board game to The Beatles when in reality its like comparing it to a local band that only do local gigs
@@danteshydratshirt2360 You'd say Ra is pretty obscure? I would say quite the opposite
@@beakerkell The Beatles were the most popular band on the planet boardgames are a niche hobby
@@danteshydratshirt2360 It's an analogy though, so it's comparing Ra within Knizia's games to a Beatles album within their music. That's the whole point. I'm not saying it's a perfect analogy, but it's interesting.
Really love how Chris analyzes his picks. Really great!
Camilla clearly was making an entirely different list… should have been tipped off by her initial statement that she had no idea what rank they were currently on BGG. Top 10 games that deserve to be ranked in the BGG top 10… games that are objectively the best of the best, in her opinion - and she’s making a “recommendations for new gamers” list apparently… then picking mostly obscure games that are far from the best of their kind. Don’t get me wrong, I think she picked some good games - I’d agree with Quacks of Quedlinburg, and I suspect if I played Destinies I would also agree (Chronicles of Crime is up there). I do like Obscurio, but I’m not sure if it’s quite top 10.
To be fair, I haven’t played all the games, but of the others listed here, I definitely agree with Ticket to Ride, Pandemic, Azul, Root, Caverna, Viticulture, Wingspan, Codenames, the Crew, and probably even Magic the Gathering. I haven’t played Dominion, but we have been loving Thunderstone Quest, and that definitely deserves to be up there, so the classic deck-builder makes sense.
This. I really don’t understand what Camilla is thinking or what list she’s making. very confusing.
Only watched the intro so far, but I feel like this might be one of my most favorite TDT Top 10 lists ever!! I love how each person explained their thought process regarding how to approach the list, and I love the insight on how people view "highly rated games" in general. We'll see how well it comes through for me.
As a music nerd and board game nerd I really appreciated Chris'comparing games to music and albums. He was also very eclectic in his choices. One of my fav top 10s.
I got a mild depression from Tom saying Avengers is a top 10 film and not knowing what Rubber Soul was
To his defence he is American, so he can be ignorantly arrogant its their National Trait. I hope they change it in the next patch tho
Chris, I (and everyone else watching this brilliance) think your music/game analogies are FANTASTIC! Always do your reviews and stuff just like you did this one! Bravo!
You are incorrect, sir.
So I started the list frustrated at Camilla's logic. But then I realized the logic is completely sound, just coming from a different place. Tom and Chris seemed to make their lists based on what "deserves" to be in the top 10, looking at the top 10 as what it is meant to be, the top 10 games. But Camilla's list is saying, yes the it is the top 10 games, but the top 10 is often used by people as a billboard for games to play or try. So she isn't saying that the games deserve to be in the top 10, but that she wishes they were anyway because people would play them more and that would be good for hobby. So not saying they are the best games ever, but that they should be on that billboard.
"Top 10 games you should try" is a different list. Her picks just felt random
Expected For Sale to show up here - for what it is, I think it is nearly a perfectly designed game. Scales well, plays quick, can be explained in 3 minutes. There really aren't any flaws with the design.
The phone flip had me rewinding a couple of times 😂😂😂
I love these top 10s. They always intro me to something new, and with this one, awesome games I hadn't thought of. Great Lists all, and I agree, no room for snobs. We are all just here trying to have some good old fashion fun. Looking forward to the next list :)
Chris' additional music album list...
10 - Beatles - Rubber Soul
9 - Metallica - Master of Puppets
8 - The Bodyguard OST (or generally movie soundtracks)
7 - Tool - Lateralus
6 - Ramones - Ramones
5 - AC/DC - Back to Black
4 - Pink Floyd - The Wall
3 - Red Hot Chilli Peppers - Californication
2 - Marvin Gaye - What's Going On
1 - Led Zeppelin - IV
Chris mentioning Tool was amazing.
not as diverse as it could be TBH
Need a video where Tom listens to the albums and gives his impression. Can't believe he's never heard most of them
Love Tom chucking his phone @ 25:06, I yearn to do this every day, Lol😄
LOL nice catch
I appreciated Chris Yi’s album references. Going from Beatles to Metallica, right on.
I was skeptical of the interest of this top 10 list, based solely on the title, but wow was I proven wrong! Kudos to Camilla, Chris and Tom for the insightful lists and fun banter.
I have to commend Camilla on the out-of-the-box thinking for her list. What I find interesting are not so much her specific choices (although totally agree about Quacks and Jamaica), but rather that Camilla approached the list as a way of filling in important blanks on the BGG 10. i.e. not each game needs to be a sprawling epic strategy game, so what would be a key party game, family-weight push your luck, drafting, racing, dexterity, etc? Totally turned the top 10 on its head and I was 100% on board for this. Especially since you had Tom and Chris covering the list from a more "traditional" stance.
Well, actually - I think Tom went a touch too meta with his list by the time he got to the top 5. Nothing wrong there, but I think to simplify things I would have stuck with the "spirit" of the BGG target arena: modern designer board games. So games like Monopoly, Dungeons & Dragons, Warhammer, Magic, Chess, Go, etc would all be out of consideration. Making a statement like that at the beginning would have acknowledged whatever subset of those you feel deserved mention, and would have made for perhaps a more focused list (as well as more designer board game choices, such as Dixit which you mentioned early on). Still a great list from Tom otherwise, and I thought Ticket to Ride at #1 was an inspired choice.
Kemet! Ra! With these two choices alone I have to give Chris the nod for the list that's the most near and dear to my heart, but I also think his list was consistently good throughout; my favourite type of album is one where you can hit play at the beginning and do something else without skipping a track because they'd all be hits. A few albums come to mind but for Chris, you are Guns 'n' Roses' Appetite for Destruction. ;)
I think the BGG top 10 is not bad as it currently stands, and I do agree with many of the Dice Tower's (and People's) choices. Other candidates I can think of would be Tigris & Euphrates and Kingdomino: Origins (OG is fine, but Origins is nearly identical and comes w/ built-in expansions for more play).
Honorable mention goes to X-Wing Miniatures (v 1.0, as a casual gamer). Leaving it out because the game now seems to be in a shambles unfortunately. I wouldn't even know how to advise someone to get into it nowadays.
Agree with another commenter, Camila basically made a list of games she likes that she feels are good intros to new(ish) gamers for different mechanics. Not a Top 10 of All Time list. Totally subjective though, so I'm not trying to bash that. Just seems like she went in a completely different direction than Chris and Tom. Best picks in my worthless opinion (from their lists) - Ticket to Ride, Wingspan, MTG, Azul, Root, Pandemic/Legacy, Agricola, Quacks, Dominion, Codenames.
BGG should have some sort of Hall of Fame where gateway games reign supreme. They may not be as refined as the newer ones but they are less daunting to newbies and bring more people to the hobby than any flashy, overproduced box of plastic bits. BGG rankings as well as Dice Tower top 100s, are often disproportionately represented by the cult of the new.
Just filter by plays, done
The BGG ranking for Family games is probably the closest thing to what you are talking about. It’s still not perfect though. I suppose it should include games like Catan, Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride, 7 Wonders etc.
I like sorting bgg by number of ratings as that pulls out games with broader appeal (such as ticket to ride).
This is a good trick! Thank you for the tip!
Chris is such an amazing addition to the team. Always love what he has to say. Pure class.
I've played 100s of games of Root both on the app and TTS and in-person so I can safely say it's my comfort game. It has a really high barrier of entry so getting to that point of feeling very comfortable with all the mechanics and interactions of the asymmetrical factions takes some time to be sure. BUT, once you and your play group arrive at that point, I promise you there is not better game. When you understand the game (which at its core isn't even that complex) there's so much room for fascinating synergy, intricate combos and table talk beyond what you can find in most any other game. Getting to that point takes time and it's certainly not a game for everyone but for people who get sucked in by the asymmetry and theme, it's a game with near infinite possibilities.
I love the idea of Root. I played it once, and immediately decided I wouldn't play it again. As a "very serious" gamer, its just one that I felt that without understanding how all the races at the table played, I was just kinda playing blind, and it really bothered me.
So I'd have two options. A, I could just not play it. Or B, I could play it enough to learn all the races (2-3 games per race), and then be enjoying it.
Tack on the fact that its a fairly long playtime game, and the plethora of other games that I enjoy playing as much or more, and it just wasn't worth it to me. I think it's a pretty great game, but just doesn't work well for me.
Just wanted to say that I truly appreciated the thought that Chris put into his list. Comparing them to albums was absolutely perfect. Loved the analogy!
I loved it too. So cool!
I feel that Camila made a different list than the other two.. It is a great personal list for welcoming games to the hobby. I am just not sure it aligned with the title of the video unfortunately.
I understand the logic. Lots of people who are getting into boardgames will look at the top 10 expecting the games with the broadest appeal, when what they actually get is the most loved games by hardcore/experienced gamers. It's a different reading of the title, but I think it's valid.
She's the new Sam 😆
Camilla killing me with that first comment: “Uh, the instructions you didn’t give me? Correct.” 😂😂😂
Love her sass
I love Chris's musical comparisons. As a music lover myself his comparisons are spot on and very well thought out. Kudos to you Chris!!! Well done sir, well done!
A Mt. Rushmore of board games, the forefathers of modern board games. Agricola, Catan, Carcassonne and Ticket to Ride are my four.
I think, Ticket to Ride has bigger flaws than Catan. People rave about TtR having fast turns, so you get always involved. But that's not true, SU&SD showcased it brilliantly: very often your only valid option is drawing two cards from the top of the deck, hoping for a wild, and getting frustrated by the useless cards you draw instead. And if there are no useful cards in display, it might be, that you do have to do this ten turns in a row, meaning you have 10 rounds of gameplay with no meaningful decision. It can get very frustrating and boring, and I didn't have lots of game, where it did not go this route for at least a couple of players. For me, it is so boring, it even surprised me, that the actual playtime is shorter, than I initially estimated, after at least a dozen of plays. I thought it to be a 75 to 90 minute game, while in fact, if you look on the watch, it's actually rather 45 minutes to an hour. Catan has kind of a catch up in, that if you are in an unfavourable position from the beginning, people likely do trades, you profit more from than themselves, as long as they at least get some profit from it. I like it much more, but neither of them can compete with Carcassonne or Azul for me.
Carcassonne should have been on the list!!!
25:07 Did Tom just throw his smartphone away? 😂😂😂
Oh my god Chris’s analogies are SO ON POINT! BEST part of the whole video! Kudos Chris
I can relate to most of Tom's choices. and some of Chris'. but for Camilla, I think we are not on the same page.
and I would like to know Zee and Mike choices.
I think that Camilla is just pulling from games that she's played, having not played as many as the other DT crew
Camilla’s picks were…odd.
Agreed
@@flaringnostrilzbut they were 10. So were... even.
@@boardgaming365😂
They were so wrong
I wonder if she understood the assignment
Tom looks like a grumpy Troll expressing with a hoarse voice his disbelief about other's choices ;D
I think Camilla misunderstands what the Top Ten Games on BGG means. It's not about the games that gets people into the hobby nor about different mechanisms representative of the board game hobby. She did a Top Ten Games that best Represents its Game Mechanism List. Not a Top Ten Games of ALL TIME ON BGG List.
Chris introducing Tom to Tool... that made my day 😁
I for one, LOVED Chris’ the music analogies!! It made me like him more as a reviewer!!
Chris Yi! I’m seriously interested in your top 10 albums. Board games and music are my two passions. My buddy (also an avid board gamer) made his top 100 albums and recently motivated me to do the same. I love hearing others lists, but most people don’t care enough to have one.
I love Chris' brain explosion that happened with Tom not knowing anything about The Wall.
"Roy, who's that?" "That's Spiderman" 🤣🤣🤣
I chuckled at that one also. I have super hero burnout and have avoided all things superhero (games/movies/etc) for a few years now.
Kudos to Chris...I cringed a little when he said he was going to have a music analogy for every pick, but I think he totally nailed it.
Yeah, he hit the nail on the head everytime.
Love this. Love the disagreement , discussion and passion. Always makes me reconsider game choices.
I highly disagree with Camilla that the top 10 on BGG should be welcoming games for beginners. That's like saying Transformers should be in the top 10 of IMDB instead of The Godfather. When I started on the hobby I found out that the best way to enter it is to ask for recommendations of light games and just play them, not to play the best ranked on BGG.
Honestly, she made a different list. If she thinks those are the ten greatest board games ever made... well, they just aren't. Not by any objective standard.
Chris, at first I cringed a bit when you said you'd have a music analogy for each pick. Then with each pick.. you completely changed my mind. Very creative and well thought out. Bravo.
Castle Panic should be in the top 10. It was a big success with my 6 years old nephew, with a group of teenagers and a group of 30-something years old.
One of my favorite top 10 videos. Really cool to see the differing opinions 👍
This was a really excellent Top 10 category and a joy to watch. Thanks 🙂
Camilla's Pandemic Legacy move was the boldest move in a Top Ten I've ever seen. And I've been watching for more than a decade.
Definitely an expert gamer move: "the rules don't say that I can't do that".
I’m floored that Castles of Burgundy wasn’t in anyones list. Not even the peoples?! Whoa.
CHRIS! Talking about "Master of Puppets" makes me happy. The first 4 Metallica albums WERE so good and still ARE so good. I was so happy when I heard the title track on Stranger Things because so many young people NEED to hear these albums. Anyway...thank you for that! You're game picks were also great (I wanted to make a joke about them being garbage, but they were great!)
Just listening to him describing those albums and then making the comparison with the board games was so fun, I just needed to make a playlist in that order.
I will say, the music picks for games were bang on.
I would love to see a list where they replace each of the BGG top 10 with a game they like better that is in a similar category. For example, if I were doing it,Terraforming Mars is an engine builder, and I would say I like Fantastic Factories (another engine builder) better.
Camilla did top 10 gateway games...
It was a fun list. Although, I believe that Camilla did not understand the assignment.
I'm not sure that I understand the assignment either. By Tom's own explanation (which I just watched), what he did was "Top 10 Underrated Games," because his #1 was the furthest from the BGG Top 10.
If you watch the first 10 minutes there wasn’t a definition of the assignment and they even joke about it.
But she's awesome so, it's all good.
Tom's makes the most sense to me. Games that have become modern classics that everyone plays. I think Camilla was trying to do underrated games in general.
I think Camilla is a good addition to the Dice Tower crew on the whole, but her Top 10s are very quirky. Of course she can put what she wants on them, but of course we don't have to like it.
Wonder what Chris's music analogy would be for Camilla's list.
Great top 10 btw, would absolutely love to see Mike, Zee and the others do their own.
Britney Spears and the like.
I absolutely LOVE Chris' music analogies. My husband and I were wowwed by that!
Next topic:
"Music i would play while playing this or that game"
I feel like Camilla’s choices were more her personal faves, or maybe more appropriate in a “somewhat underrated games” list. Just didnt make sense in the context of this particular top 10. Chris’s made the most sense honestly, or Tom’s I suppose. (And personally I actually prefer the games on her list to his).
I was teally surprised catan wasnt in any of the top 10s
Chris, wow, new respect. Have to put on Puppets now. Thank you - loved it and so good to see you push the boat out a bit and create some external reference points.
The last time I went to BGG was to see if there was information on a Kickstarter game I was checking out. I’m new to this hobby and still learning. As I read the reviews, I realized a lot of people (who had never played the game) were rating it a “1” because they didn’t like a particular aspect of the components. This was followed by people (who had never played the game) rating it a “10” to, “balance the negative reviews”. New gamer, advanced gamer, light gamer, board game geek…it doesn’t matter when games are being reviewed that way. Why would you review a book if you haven’t even cracked the cover? There’s none of that mess at The Dice Tower. This was an informative video without any of the “games”. Thank you Camilla, Chris and Tom.
I would love if BGG maintained a "Welcome to this hobby Top 10…". Something that continues to update as new games replace the great entry point games by some newer games that 'do it better'.
Great lists team.
Chris, I enjoyed the music analogies. Well thought out and articulated. 👍😃
Oh my word this would be incredible. One of my first attempts at getting into the hobby involved me trying to just get games that are ranked high on bgg, and I just got burnt out by how big some of them are, and going from playing video games to board games where all of a sudden I had to have all the rules in my head was something I had not taken into account.
The game for me that really helped bridge that gap was probably Mansions of Madness 2nd Edition. The app helped make it so much easier to wrap my head around things.
I enjoyed the friendly banter between these three. Loved Camilla's unconventional choices, Chris' music correlations and Tom jokingly leaning into the "old man" role. Looking forward to more lists, love you guys!
I was so excited to see Agricola getting some love! Then a bit sad immediately afterwards 😂 I think Agricola gets dismissed a lot because Caverna exists but its still such a good game in its own right. Its the game that brought me into the hobby so I will always love it!
I prefer Fields of Arle over both those games. Haha. Each his own right. But we all love Uwe.
OK, I guess it depends on the criteria set. My criteria is that, for a game to be in the top 10, it must be at least 10 years old (and should probably be 20 years old) and have staying power. It should still be popular and played heavily and probably have been reprinted and modified/expanded in those years and, as a bonus, it should not have been surpassed...at least not too much (which leaves out Dominion). The older the game, the ,pre complex it can be because there will be more veteran players available to teach it. So, that includes MTG (which I love), Cosmic Encounters (which I hate), Ticket to ride (which I do not like), Pandemic (which I love - and there lots of variants and expansions), and Twilight Imperium (which I am lukewarm about). I'd have to think about the rest but I definitely do not include only gaes which I love. I would include Illuminati (which I love compared to Cosmic Encounter) but it is nowhere near as mainstream. I would also include Star Fleet Battles but there's probably not enough people around who play it. Excluded games include Chess, Go and Monopoly because they haven't been improved at all in recent years. A game must adapt with the time and those games are no good for modern times.
"Go not improved..." - I wouldn't talk about thinks when one has no clue...
@@ralfn9629 The game of Go I played in 1979 had the exact same rules as the game I played in 2008. So, no, Go has not been improved. You have not disproved my point. You have just disagreed with me.
Ok I have thoughts. Chris I loved your list more than I have loved any top 10 y'all have done. The music analogies were spot on. Chris I will play power grid with you at dice tower west next year. Camilla I need to familiarize myself with the games on your list. I haven't played most of them. Tom I LOVE ❤️ your idea for a hall of fame so much. Start doing it at one of the dice tower cons every year. A game can only go in after 10 years of eligibility and have the designers there to accept the honor and give a speech max 5 games a year. Initial class for me would be magic, catan, ticket to ride, pandemic, dominion, and sure throw chess in there. Have a grandmaster accept the award.
I’m gonna be that guy and object to Magic’s inclusion here. I feel like Trading Card Games are firmly outside the realm of what This list should be
Favorite moment: “My number eight is Caverna!” -Tom. Hahahaha! Also love that each member interprets the list differently. That’s the genius of this list, whether on purpose or not.
Analogy between Dune Imperium and Bodyguard Ost(I will always love you by Whitney Houston) is so so brilliant
Agree with all of Chris’s choices and loved his music analogies too. I can’t believe Tom hadn’t heard of either Marvin Gaye or Pink Floyd!
But he knows Ark Nova! 🙂
At least by osmosis you should have heard the name Pink Floyd, I think my dad almost had an aneurysm when I told him all the bands Tom didn't even have an idea of who they were.
All I need for him to know is games. But yeah... wtf did he grow up under a set of stairs?
Camilla's choices are off the wall. 😅
The thought put behind Chris' list is phenomenal! Bravo Chris Yi!
Love the Chris Yi music analogies - I relate to everything through music as well and the music analogies made it so I could feel the emotional experience of these games.
Great idea for a video! I would love to see something similar for the "family" rankings on BGG. The family list on BGG also leans too heavy in my opinion.
It's okay Tom. I'm not a music buff either. I've heard of the bands at least, but I have no idea what albums Chris was talking about.
I'm surprised 'Cosmic Encounters' wasn't on this list. I remember when it first came out--we played it all the time. Great fun!
Yeah, really suprised it didn’t make Tom’s or the people’s list. I definitely voted for it. :)
In the 70s?
I think when Camilla pulled out Menara that Zee was somewhere cheering loudly 😂
Tom's point about Gloomhaven vs Azul and how people rate gates low vs not playing them at all is pretty great.
Not to say Gloomhaven isn't great, but it being so huge and unapproachable and a very obvious "you know if you're looking for a game like this, or not" type experience, while also being great, probably lends it a great deal of protection from being dragged away from the top spot.
I think bgg skews heavier (or why the top 100 is what it is) is because people that like those games rate them high and most people will know they're not going to like those games, so they don't play them. So they don't get rated by people who otherwise would've given something a 5 let's say.
I LOVE Chris' music analogies- maybe that's because they align with my taste but still.
It makes his thought process really accessible- even where I don't agree with all the conclusions.
Would love to see other people try to relate great games to great music/movies/TV/whatever.
Did we ever get a Hall of Fame video? I’m not seeing one. I’ve been looking for a “Top XXX of all Time” list that’s not just someone’s individual personal favorites. Much more interested to hear about Carcassonne, Catan, Pandemic, Ticket to Ride, etc and hear arguments for how and why the G.O.A.T.-ers should be composed and ranked as they are. Not just for right here and now, but for the long haul and for their impact, innovation, elegance, and execution. I want to hear experts debating over if and where Tigris and Euphrates should rank, and why or why not it would be beaten out by a Puerto Rico or a Twilight Struggle. I want to hear informed discussion about how and why Go and Chess should be ranked and whether or not something like Monopoly has a place on the list. More of Agricola, Ra, Jamaica, Quacks, Power Grid, Dominion, MTG, etc please.
I absolutely want that top 100 movies type list that rates Citizen Cane and Casablanca and Lawrence of Arabia in the top 10-20 along with modern classics like the Godfather and Jaws. Because maybe those are movies someone born in the 1990’s hasn’t seen, but they are absolutely movies ANY film buff should go back and see. The works of Stanley Kubrick are going to outlive the importance and relevance of the MCU, as a whole, even if the MCU has been enjoyable and culturally relevant and deserves some recognition and representation there (One could say the same thing about Friday the 13th…). But just because I’d rather watch Endgame most days compared to anything by Alfred Hitchcock doesn’t mean that it should rank as a better movie than Psycho or the Birds. I’m so much less interested in any list that’s going to have Oppenheimer, Barbie, and a bunch of Marvel movies on the top 10. Everything, Everywhere, All at Once was a great film, but if that’s number 3 of all time I am going to be immediately skeptical… Sure, everyone can and should like what they like, and one job of a REVIEWER is to help people find things they will enjoy. But also, there’s the responsibility of CRITIC to offer some critical analysis that is honest, at least tries to be objective, and takes into account that broader scope and deeper assessment than the current trends or personal preferences. Top XXX Favorite Games has a place and can and should change a lot. Top XXX GREATEST games OF ALL TIME is what I’m interested in. There’s lots of reviewing going on at Dice Tower, I’d like to see a few more critics.
Two things I learned from this list - Chris loves classic rock/metal, and that I do not understand Camilla’s preferences in games
Her preferences are whatever she's played, kinda like Sam's lists used to be
Nice episode guys, such a different and interesting list from all others on yt. Love the recomendstions,
Who would've expected that Chris would've been the one representing thematic games? Nice to see Kemet and Mansions of Madness on the list.
Honestly the music stuff was odd. Couldnt finish it.
Chris great music choices! I think you explained them in a really cool way!
I never have that a person on the Top 10 have a clean sweep with me whereby I agree with every pick, but Tom did it. His list is completely on point. I cannot disagree with any of his picks. Well done, sir
Loving Chris' analogies, very well thought out.
Never heard of Pink Floyd's "The Wall"? I didn't realize that was possible.
25:07 that phone throw has to be in The TOP 10 most hilarious Dice Tower moments
Definitely waiting for a sci-fi version of Destinies, Sleeping Gods, etc.
Pretty much every fantasy themed high rated game I'm just waiting for a sci-fi version.
Thats relatable :D
Everything should be sci-fi!
Chris' musical explanations were an absolute win in this video. They were well-stated, and brought a different feel to the explanations.
This is easily one of the best top 10 lists in a while.
Chris should do a music channel ❤ best guy ever
Typically love Camilla, but this was not the list for her. I could name 100 games that are more deserving of being in the top 10 than any on her list. Dixit over Obscurio, Mansions over Destinies, Sushi go over draftosaurus. Oh, other than pandemic season 1. I agree with her there, but it is already there. For party games alone, codenames, just one, taboo, wavelength. For gateway games, ticket to ride, Azul, lords of Waterdeep, Stone Age, forbidden island, villainous, one night ultimate werewolf. And I haven’t even started with medium to heavy games.
Absolutely great pick with magic the gathering Tom. I think it is 100% the best tabletop game. I only don’t play anymore because of the enormous financial cost to stay participating