So as someone researching virtual sets. I've seen vr rigs attached to cameras to act as a virtual camera. (You can buy the actual position sensors too but vr is semi affordable). Unreal Engine 5 is coming out next year which should make photorealism much easier. If this uses 4k hdmi/displayport inputs. It seems like you could use unreal engine and a vr combination with a good camera and this projector setup to achieve a small but reactive set.
@@filmriot there is also a method where you can do a chroma key in Unreal engine while streaming your footage and then live composite to your background and output the final results with reactive virtual sets. you can have the final video feed go to a seperate screen for actors and crew and one on your camera rig to a monitor. That allows for as big of a GS as you can get to be a virtual set. it's backwards, then forward again. Like Marty Mcfly.
@@filmriot Yes! If you can figure out a way to achieve some kind of parallax, that would be fantastic! I've been researching and testing Virtual set extensions and matchmoving camera tracking in Blender.
Hey I was thinking the same, remember those xbox kinekt hacks?? Similarly this shouldn't be that hard to do in a smaller scale. If you want to collab and do some ideation I'm IN.
Hey Epos, good to see you here. Well, this is not a good projector, I won two awards for video mapping and the first thing that I look for in a video projector is LUMEN, this only has 2700!!! Which is .... criminal. Panasonic PT-VZ580U has 5000 lumens and its only 1200$. For VFX work that is much better than this fancy TV, and I won't recommend that at all. I am not gonna get into the details of why, but lumen is everything and light falls off insanely quickly, its the inverse square law. So when you are 10 feet away from that VZ-580, 5000 lumen projector, the light that you get is about 1000ish, that is just not good for VFX or anything like that. Btw, I am a fan of your videos!
@@minimalfun Yeah, the luimens are a bit on the low side but one of the big draws is short throw coming from below. A classic lensed projector is a lot harder to place than this.
@@EricLefebvrePhotography You are right and that is an advantage but what I am talking about is the bounce back from the wall onto actor's face. If background is supposed to be a light source then that much light is far less than ideal.
One of the best Film Riot episodes I've seen in awhile. Took an old technique and shared valuable history then expanded it and made it a comparison video while inspiring people to use a new (but old) tech. Great work.
They actually did this sometimes on the Mandalorian. If certain background elements weren't finalized during shooting the LED wall for that area would just be solid green and replaced later in post
@@shadowproductions969 99% of the wall was still displaying the actual background in the shots I saw, just one little portion would be green. I think the ambient light would still be enough to work with and base the small bit of fakery on
@@seangentry2943 okay, yeah if it was mostly in camera then it wouldn't be much worse than doing a digital replacement for something. Seems like you could do an in camera comparison to the original background cg to do an accurate key as well. Doing a full green screen with this method requires a LOT of extra work to even remotely look as good as in camera. I'd love to get a setup like that.
My low budget solution is 10 guys dressed as trees passing the window running around the car behind the camera and repeat the process 🎥😊 worked always well !
If you're planning on short depth of field/blurred background, then 4K doesn't matter. There are a number of 1080p UST (ultrashort throw) projectors in the $1200-2000 range. They might require hooking up with a smart blu-ray player, Roku/Fire plug-in, or PC for streaming content, but that's a small sacrifice.
Traditional front screen projection setups usually had the projector set up in line with the camera and used a beam-splitter (essentially a two way mirror) to line up the projected image with what the camera would record. The image was projected onto the the talent, but it was faint enough to not be noticed while the screen behind them had a coating that is generally described as "3M" in all the documentaries I've seen about this. That coating made it so that the faint image that wasn't visible on the actors got reflected at almost full force back toward the source where the camera was sitting. Yes, it meant that the actors were also casting a shadow onto the screen, but since the camera and projector was in line it meant that the silhouette of the actor covered the shadow perfectly (if set up correctly). tl-dr: 2 way mirrors can be obtained fairly easily nowadays. But I wonder. Does 3M or any equivalent but cheaper competitor still sell those screens? I think one can build a similar setup but more mobile than the old days since both cameras and projectors have become so much smaller over the years. And the beam-splitter is basically the same as the 3D camera mirror rigs that Hollywood has been using for quite some time now.
for the people freaking out about the price, consider this. The cost of moving cast, crew, camera gear, craft services, audio, and lighting to the rooftop of a building, or into a deep forest, etc. you're probably going to be having a similar if not larger price to pay, but the projector can be used infinitely and any time you need. Take everything in context :)
Thanks for this video. I have two questions : 1. How do you avoid flicker ? are there special characteristics to the projector ? 2. You dont actually answer the question in the title ? Is it better than green screen ? if so, how ? Thank you !
Since I made my own 3D environments, I always had this in mind. I’d like to try Unreal Engine just to see what would I be able to do as an extension, but also because UR5 will launch next year, and I bet things may turn out to be for the best in terms of filmmaking.
The depth of field doesn’t look right with the projector. Trees and buildings that appear feet away have the same DoF as trees or buildings that are miles away. Maybe it would be better when shooting with everything in focus or filming your projector footage with the desired T-stop in mind so that it matches. Definitely something I’d love to test out and make use of. Thanks for not making this some boring review.
What they are doing with mandalorian is amazing and i completely agree it is going to change filmaking. One of the nest things too is the actors response too it because it gave them the feeling that they were actually there and it made their job so much easier
The problem I see with your setup is that you’re not taking the projector’s brightness into account and lighting like you normally would. For this to work right, you will need to cut down your lighting strength to complement your projector background and crank up the ISO to blend. Something like this is what the Sony A7S series was made for. You could open your lens up more but that would be adding a limitation when we have cameras that can get relatively clean ISO 3200 and 6400.
I love that you referenced Jurassic Park. The first film available for home view in surround sound. I remember sitting in my dad's lounge watching that scene and the sound of the stampede moving from the right of the room, around behind me then over to the left. Game changer!!
If you put a VR headseat mounted on the camera and used Unreal Engine to store the background, and/or other props, you could move the camera and change the environment too! You could also render foreground elements and composite them in post. I think that would work.
I think in odd ways rear projection looks better. I'm really gonna have to look into this method for my own films because even though I'm very much of this current generation, something about the old - more practical style of effects appeals to me more.
Stanley Kubricks reasoning for this makes sense, not only for the film and its cold-like dream field eeriness, but it’s also when Tom is completely in his head about his wife cheating. The fake background represents that he isn’t totally “there.” Cause he’s in his head. I hope y’all weren’t shitting on EWS...
Where it fails in the last FX shot (and in a lot of front and rear projection) is that the density of the darks doesn't match. That comes down to the luminosity of the projector in relationship to the on set lighting. Get them closer and you'll get a far better match.
I recently used a cheap projector from amazon to use as a green screen for a music video and it worked surprisingly well! Not as bright obviously but it gets the job done! Saved me from bringing an actual green screen on set and having to light it
Wow, this looks good! Most projector tests I've seen just don't quite look right, the blacks aren't black enough. Here it works really well. The only one you can tell is the car, but probably because it's in such a small space and all your other lights are spilling on to it.
Personally I think the biggest advantage of using a projector over green screen is that it's VERY difficult to light a green screen properly (i.e. lit evenly across the entire screen, and without reflecting green light back onto the actors, which is especially challenging in smaller spaces)
You could probably add the parallax if you track the camera movement in real-time. Would take some serious problem solving and experimenting but it seems pretty plausible. For the actual virtual backgrounds. I believe Cinematographers database had a couple episodes creating a virtual camera studio with parallax but he used a green screen. I think bringing both of these projects together would be epic
Didn't see your comment before commenting the same thing. À raspberry pi and some trackers around the camera. It could be "easily" coded (by someone who knows what he's doing of course lol). Creating small parallax movements from a static image shouldn't be too difficult. Merging both and voilà 😅 It could be a cool project for film riot
I recently acted in an indie film where we shot on a soundstage using front projection. The DP used a handheld rig and the finished product looked amazingly real. That inspired me to research set extensions. Been experimenting a lot with Blender and matchmoving greenscreen footage for those times you need parallax (ie dolly/crane shots), but for medium shots and CU, this method is far superior because of the reasons you say in the video -- a much easier workflow and the lighting of subject will match BG perfectly!
They use Unreal to make virtual sets on The Mandalorian. You can run that through your projector & either trigger it manually or use your tripod to trigger the parallax view in Unreal in real time.
5:34 So close to convincing... but the critical part of selling that effect for me is the window’s reflection of light and the environment inside. Maybe get a panel of plexiglass? Any ideas to solve that?
@@dietwedge depends on the quality you're filming at as well. Green screen and virtual sets is another Option but the idea of no chromakey and real light interaction is the beauty of this. I'd love to try this with a projector like this.
@@0racleElf Not anything on this level that is for sure, it's right here. 1080p, 7200 lux and can shoot a 300'' image for under $300. I bought it for movies in the backyard and it's now got a second function :) www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07YBQ6D24/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I can think of several ways to make this have parallax 🤓 - A cheap way to do it, is to attempt to replicate a slider move you recorded and are now projecting. Using a known speed and height, you can then play back and replicate your previous slider shot. - Another method would be to have the camera and projector spin on the same axis (⬆ Camera ------ 0 -------- Projector ⬇). In this instance, you could do some really trippy stuff with your actor standing or seated in the middle. - Using SDI, Vive trackers, and Vive cameras, you could also translate your camera's movement to a camera in Unreal Engine without moving the projector at all. Just some thoughts 🙂
You could use a second cheap projector shooting into something reflective placed off camera and aimed at the talent, and playing the same footage as the expensive one. That might give you some environmental lighting that’d Mach the background. I know that’s one of the the big benefits of the system they used on Mando :)
PLEASE make more episodes like this. Not only is it fascinating, its great to hear your thoughts on new pieces of technology and how this ties into movie making. Keep up the great work! Also, ya know...Josh on a motorcycle 😂
Another fantastic video. Question. With these projectors, or if using a large monitor for close up rear projection, do we have to worry about the projected video’s frame rate or frequency matching the frame rate of the camera filming the projected background, say 24 fps?
You can definitely use a projector with Unreal Engine, a Vive tracker on you camera, and a couple base stations to get an affordable but versatile small virtual production setup. You can even scale it with multiple projectors and a feature called Ndisplay in Unreal. For those who are interested there's a great community Facebook group called Unreal Engine: Virtual Production where everyone from Indie studios to Big productions are posting examples, asking questions, and sharing knowledge.
It's deliberate. You're supposed to know it's not right - Kubrik was nothing if not a stickler for perfection. It's the same as Pulp Fiction, a deliberate style choice.
I know this is not your problem, but as a heads up to others. I can't download SFX using the Artlist trial. Music and Video works ok, although it's a headache having to download video clips one at a time.
You could try adding a motion track/parallax with a VR/360 scene add a VR helmet WMR/Oculus etc to the camera - Even a smartphone version would work as a test.
More of an ad for the CineBeam than a projector breakdown. Ultra short throw projectors a decent, but have a keystone size output limitation from the extreme angle of their lens->mirror. Laser projectors have a scanning refresh rate which can become prominent with certain shutterspeeds (or cause flickering). Laser, 3LCD, and DLP have very different technologies (pros/cons), same with rear and front projection. The CineBeam is 2700 Lumens, Oblivion used 15-21 10,000+ lumen projectors.
Your physical description of front projection is incorrect. The projector is not between the actor and the screen. it is shot through a beam splitter or half silver mirror (two way mirror) and onto the actor and the screen. The screen is made of Scotch Light, the same material used on road signs that return a high amount of light perpendicular to the screen. The image projected is in line with the camera focal point and there fore the image blocked by the actors from the projector is not seen by the camera.
Here in my country Just announced the first virtual production feature film. Seems like its a very practical technology for film making in this kind of situations
The results in front of your film riot logo are excellent. You can get perfect color gradings on your skin tones in front of the monitor because the light from the background outlines you which you cannot duplicate in a green screen. Think about the TIME you save from delta keying out the green screen before video editing. Hours of savings. All I do is a green screen on my channel. It takes 7 hours to remove the green sceen. Add alpha channel export to dxhd and back in davanci for real-time editing on a pure black background. I capture in dnxhd 220mbit atomos 422 8bit with canon g30 camcorder and separate zoom h5 audio. Even on intel 8700k fully loaded davanci takes along time for fusion green screen. I also include noise reduction in-studio version so exports are 4 fps per sec. With this screen you can skip all that but you will still need to add noise reduction to make it look really nice.
i've got 99 problems but parallax ain't one, Ryan - you can very inexpensively use either a webcam based or for a bit more money (peanuts when it comes to film making) you can use a virtual reality tracking system to track the camera in VR and have a computer calculate and move the background for the appropriate perspective of the camera to achieve fully 3d virtual scenes, or if it's just backgrounds your after you could use a photosphere or 180 degree video as sources for that parallax tracking... there are so many creative ways to implement this and I think it would add quite a bit to the shot depending on what is needed. - you just add a steamvr tracker to your camera and a couple of steamvr lighthouses...
This is a real inspiration & great review Thanks a lot for your efforts! I have a simple question I wish you can help me with it please ❤️🙏 When You tries the LG 4k short throw as front projector, did you use it on a normal grey or black wall or backdrop? or you used it on a special screen with Ambient Light Rejecting ALR that are made specifically for such projectors? I wish you can help me with this as I'm planning to get a short throw 4k proctor soon? It would be highly appreciated! 🙏🙏🙏
Really amazing video, & yes I have the same question as the ARL screen are also considerably costly too. Please let us know if they are really necessary? Would the studio lights affect the quality of the projector photo so badly if it was projected directly to the wall?
@@alainjacques4256 Yes, that would be real help .. @FilmRiot I hope you can help us out? & if yes, could you please tell us which ARL screen you were using?
But perhaps you can utilize some motion controlled moving camera mounts and use them in real time or pre rendered with a computer and Unreal Engine/Blender to send a dynamic background picture with the correct parallax to the projector? 🤔 Could be a solvable task.
Why don't movie makers use Vantablack paint as a background drop? Since it reflects almost no light, it wouldn't register and the image sensor couldn't detect it. So, it would be an ideal choice for background keying.
Hmm...I'll have to try this out myself. It's amazing, I would have never thought working with projected images at this level of quality was doable. Thank you for inspiring me!!
I can see the use of the projector screen featured in this episode working beautifully for silent visual productions. However, I am wondering, in the case that this product is being used for interviews, would it let off a sound that would ruin the audio production?
Ryan, a question: If you had an image from your projector slowly panning stage left as you circle your talent to the left, matching your speed with that of the projector, wouldn't that action show up on screen as parallax?
Yo, and what if you figure out some 3D wizardry to track your camera as the projector displays a realtime 3D background. There's gotta be some kind of scrappy open-source project somewhere.
If you put that Projector on a motorized cinerail / dolly in a Studio with a cylindrical screen and Setup the Projector to follow the camera movement along the rail, maybe you could achieve something similar like in the Mandalorian on a low Budget. Without the need of having to buy 6 or 7 of those expensive Projectors.
Use VR and you can have motion tracked cameras in Unreal Engine for digital set design. Mix that with a green screen or some type of projection and you got yourself Virtual Production.
Why not use the 4k projector, with unreal engine. That's connected to a real life camera and virtual camera in UE. So that when you move the real life camera, the projector moves as well, creating a paralax.
It would be so cool to see this combined with what cinematography database is doing. Between the two of you, you could build a "DIY" virtual set like the one used in the mandolorian
I would like to know how to connect the camera with the background screen like the mandalorian (parallax). How did they do that, please share this knowledge.
Matt Workman has some videos on rigging up Oculus remotes on cameras and using 3D backgrounds in Unreal Engine to do virtual productions in his basement. Pairing that with a projector like this would probably bring it even closer.
3:20 You can pull off the Unreal Engine production at home ... to some extent. FXHome has a way to track motion using an Iphone and import that data into Unreal and apply it to a virtual camera in the engine. It's not QUITE the same since you don't get the lighting from the massive led walls but you can now have 3d backgrounds that react and paralax to the camera movment. I'd love to seee what you guys could do with this.
Wonder if it would be plausible to jerry rig up paralax using something like a VR controller on the camera to track the motion. I've seen people to VR where their live action footage is greenscreened into a view of the game, so this doesn't seem a million miles away. Especially if you can just cut your background footage into a few layers and just have the camera motion affect them, it wouldn't be a particularly complex scene to render real time. I suppose it's just if the latency of detecting the motion and then projecting it is acceptable.
4K does not mean better image quality. It just lets you zoom in further in post. And viewing 4K on its own also doesn’t to anything at normal to moderately close viewing distances. When you get to the point where you’d see pixels in Full HD on a home set up, you’d be too close to watch the movie properly anyway. Here’s demo to this topic the the cinematographer of The Last Jedi and Knives Out if you’re interested in how resolution actually functions: yedlin.net/ResDemo/index.html
Just got into filmmaking recently again been binge watching your videos, gonna get started on a horror movie next weekend with my go pro, I know its not the best camera per se. But it does get its job done ^^
Of course you can have the parallax effect with that projector! you just need to feed your camera info into unreal engine and for that you dont need more than your cellphone´s gryroscope.
So as someone researching virtual sets. I've seen vr rigs attached to cameras to act as a virtual camera. (You can buy the actual position sensors too but vr is semi affordable). Unreal Engine 5 is coming out next year which should make photorealism much easier. If this uses 4k hdmi/displayport inputs. It seems like you could use unreal engine and a vr combination with a good camera and this projector setup to achieve a small but reactive set.
I've been thinking about this too. Maybe we'll figure a way to do something with that.
@@filmriot there is also a method where you can do a chroma key in Unreal engine while streaming your footage and then live composite to your background and output the final results with reactive virtual sets. you can have the final video feed go to a seperate screen for actors and crew and one on your camera rig to a monitor. That allows for as big of a GS as you can get to be a virtual set. it's backwards, then forward again. Like Marty Mcfly.
@@filmriot Yes! If you can figure out a way to achieve some kind of parallax, that would be fantastic! I've been researching and testing Virtual set extensions and matchmoving camera tracking in Blender.
Hey I was thinking the same, remember those xbox kinekt hacks?? Similarly this shouldn't be that hard to do in a smaller scale. If you want to collab and do some ideation I'm IN.
@@filmriot here is one low budget tech demo you may want to check out.
ua-cam.com/video/3YUbx_ebrXA/v-deo.html
Admittedly I was thinking there's a LOT I could do with this, it's way more convincing
but $5600 is not something I can swing
Hey Epos, good to see you here. Well, this is not a good projector, I won two awards for video mapping and the first thing that I look for in a video projector is LUMEN, this only has 2700!!! Which is .... criminal.
Panasonic PT-VZ580U has 5000 lumens and its only 1200$. For VFX work that is much better than this fancy TV, and I won't recommend that at all.
I am not gonna get into the details of why, but lumen is everything and light falls off insanely quickly, its the inverse square law. So when you are 10 feet away from that VZ-580, 5000 lumen projector, the light that you get is about 1000ish, that is just not good for VFX or anything like that.
Btw, I am a fan of your videos!
@@minimalfun Yeah, the luimens are a bit on the low side but one of the big draws is short throw coming from below. A classic lensed projector is a lot harder to place than this.
@@EricLefebvrePhotography You are right and that is an advantage but what I am talking about is the bounce back from the wall onto actor's face. If background is supposed to be a light source then that much light is far less than ideal.
\-_-/
in 5 to 10 years they'll probably be common place
One of the best Film Riot episodes I've seen in awhile. Took an old technique and shared valuable history then expanded it and made it a comparison video while inspiring people to use a new (but old) tech. Great work.
THE PLOT TWIST "ITS THE PROJECTOR" YOU GOT ME HAHA
Omg. I could get this projector and put a white wall behind me, then project a green background behind me for a green screen 😂😂.
They actually did this sometimes on the Mandalorian. If certain background elements weren't finalized during shooting the LED wall for that area would just be solid green and replaced later in post
@@seangentry2943 which is sad because then you have to chroma and fake all the light interaction and it never looks as good.
@@shadowproductions969 99% of the wall was still displaying the actual background in the shots I saw, just one little portion would be green. I think the ambient light would still be enough to work with and base the small bit of fakery on
@@seangentry2943 okay, yeah if it was mostly in camera then it wouldn't be much worse than doing a digital replacement for something. Seems like you could do an in camera comparison to the original background cg to do an accurate key as well. Doing a full green screen with this method requires a LOT of extra work to even remotely look as good as in camera. I'd love to get a setup like that.
@@seangentry2943 yeah, it's literally just the view from the camera they make green. Then the use rough shots around the set to give "location" light.
Noticed this is the background of last episode, and hoped you would make an episode about it! Looks awesome! Thanks
My low budget solution is 10 guys dressed as trees passing the window running around the car behind the camera and repeat the process 🎥😊 worked always well !
That sounds way more expensive than just using a green screen.
You can afford 10?? Lucky.
😂😂😂
Ryan Garner Haha probably it is ! 😁
2020 version of DIY filmmaking is a $5700 projector for 'stylized' shots.
right!! lol
If you're planning on short depth of field/blurred background, then 4K doesn't matter. There are a number of 1080p UST (ultrashort throw) projectors in the $1200-2000 range. They might require hooking up with a smart blu-ray player, Roku/Fire plug-in, or PC for streaming content, but that's a small sacrifice.
Bruh, I was literally just like "hmm... let's see what Film Riot is up to, they haven't posted in a WEEK"
The search algorithms have invaded human thoughts...before you even think of it there it is
Traditional front screen projection setups usually had the projector set up in line with the camera and used a beam-splitter (essentially a two way mirror) to line up the projected image with what the camera would record. The image was projected onto the the talent, but it was faint enough to not be noticed while the screen behind them had a coating that is generally described as "3M" in all the documentaries I've seen about this. That coating made it so that the faint image that wasn't visible on the actors got reflected at almost full force back toward the source where the camera was sitting. Yes, it meant that the actors were also casting a shadow onto the screen, but since the camera and projector was in line it meant that the silhouette of the actor covered the shadow perfectly (if set up correctly).
tl-dr:
2 way mirrors can be obtained fairly easily nowadays. But I wonder. Does 3M or any equivalent but cheaper competitor still sell those screens?
I think one can build a similar setup but more mobile than the old days since both cameras and projectors have become so much smaller over the years. And the beam-splitter is basically the same as the 3D camera mirror rigs that Hollywood has been using for quite some time now.
for the people freaking out about the price, consider this. The cost of moving cast, crew, camera gear, craft services, audio, and lighting to the rooftop of a building, or into a deep forest, etc. you're probably going to be having a similar if not larger price to pay, but the projector can be used infinitely and any time you need. Take everything in context :)
Thank you ''Film Riot'' you inspired us to start our UA-cam Journey🙏🙏
Just started watching your videos couple of weeks ago now strongly addicted to your videos.... love from Kerala INDIA❣️❣️❣️
Thanks for this video. I have two questions :
1. How do you avoid flicker ? are there special characteristics to the projector ?
2. You dont actually answer the question in the title ? Is it better than green screen ? if so, how ?
Thank you !
Since I made my own 3D environments, I always had this in mind. I’d like to try Unreal Engine just to see what would I be able to do as an extension, but also because UR5 will launch next year, and I bet things may turn out to be for the best in terms of filmmaking.
Try dreams 😂
The depth of field doesn’t look right with the projector. Trees and buildings that appear feet away have the same DoF as trees or buildings that are miles away.
Maybe it would be better when shooting with everything in focus or filming your projector footage with the desired T-stop in mind so that it matches. Definitely something I’d love to test out and make use of.
Thanks for not making this some boring review.
Josh's gotta be in a feature film, I'll keep saying this until it happens
Sicario 3: Muchas Gracias
the projector backgrounds just look so much better than a green screen, all day long, no question.
Woah, that you were actually infront of an projected image all along took me by surprise 🥵👌🏼👌🏼
THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO!
Ever since i found out how the Mandalorian is shot, i became really interested in this technique.
The shot of Josh in the car looked like a scene from the unhinged movie.
This sounds super cool! Haven’t watched the whole video yet, but I love you guys’ videos! Please keep up the amazing work!
What they are doing with mandalorian is amazing and i completely agree it is going to change filmaking. One of the nest things too is the actors response too it because it gave them the feeling that they were actually there and it made their job so much easier
How do you keep your film lights from ruining the illusion?
Called grid on a softbox to direct light in a tight pattern.
Also Negative Flags help to cut the light from the parts you don't want it
With some RGB-LED Lights that receive the Lighting-Data from Unreal you can light your "Real-Footage" the same way as in Unreal
This is real cool technique. Something that the actors can look and interact with. Hope more modern filmmakers use this technique.
The problem I see with your setup is that you’re not taking the projector’s brightness into account and lighting like you normally would. For this to work right, you will need to cut down your lighting strength to complement your projector background and crank up the ISO to blend. Something like this is what the Sony A7S series was made for. You could open your lens up more but that would be adding a limitation when we have cameras that can get relatively clean ISO 3200 and 6400.
Rear projection was used on the apollo moon landing productions :)
The car sequence looked very good.
I love that you referenced Jurassic Park. The first film available for home view in surround sound. I remember sitting in my dad's lounge watching that scene and the sound of the stampede moving from the right of the room, around behind me then over to the left. Game changer!!
If you put a VR headseat mounted on the camera and used Unreal Engine to store the background, and/or other props, you could move the camera and change the environment too! You could also render foreground elements and composite them in post. I think that would work.
Holy Crap! I remember watching these guys with my dad when I was a kid. Can't believe there still making videos.
I think in odd ways rear projection looks better. I'm really gonna have to look into this method for my own films because even though I'm very much of this current generation, something about the old - more practical style of effects appeals to me more.
Stanley Kubricks reasoning for this makes sense, not only for the film and its cold-like dream field eeriness, but it’s also when Tom is completely in his head about his wife cheating.
The fake background represents that he isn’t totally “there.” Cause he’s in his head. I hope y’all weren’t shitting on EWS...
Where it fails in the last FX shot (and in a lot of front and rear projection) is that the density of the darks doesn't match. That comes down to the luminosity of the projector in relationship to the on set lighting. Get them closer and you'll get a far better match.
I recently used a cheap projector from amazon to use as a green screen for a music video and it worked surprisingly well! Not as bright obviously but it gets the job done! Saved me from bringing an actual green screen on set and having to light it
Wow, this looks good! Most projector tests I've seen just don't quite look right, the blacks aren't black enough. Here it works really well. The only one you can tell is the car, but probably because it's in such a small space and all your other lights are spilling on to it.
Would love to see more epic things done with this projector
I was like WHOA I need to look into this projector. -Clicks link.- (Almost $6,000) -Closes tab-
So anyway, I'm selling my kidney.
it's got a $300 dollar discount now LOL
There are others with 4k,short throw,laser or led that are less then half that!
@@tekatomon what, the kidney?
Personally I think the biggest advantage of using a projector over green screen is that it's VERY difficult to light a green screen properly (i.e. lit evenly across the entire screen, and without reflecting green light back onto the actors, which is especially challenging in smaller spaces)
You could probably add the parallax if you track the camera movement in real-time. Would take some serious problem solving and experimenting but it seems pretty plausible. For the actual virtual backgrounds. I believe Cinematographers database had a couple episodes creating a virtual camera studio with parallax but he used a green screen. I think bringing both of these projects together would be epic
Didn't see your comment before commenting the same thing.
À raspberry pi and some trackers around the camera. It could be "easily" coded (by someone who knows what he's doing of course lol).
Creating small parallax movements from a static image shouldn't be too difficult.
Merging both and voilà 😅
It could be a cool project for film riot
I recently acted in an indie film where we shot on a soundstage using front projection. The DP used a handheld rig and the finished product looked amazingly real. That inspired me to research set extensions. Been experimenting a lot with Blender and matchmoving greenscreen footage for those times you need parallax (ie dolly/crane shots), but for medium shots and CU, this method is far superior because of the reasons you say in the video -- a much easier workflow and the lighting of subject will match BG perfectly!
They use Unreal to make virtual sets on The Mandalorian. You can run that through your projector & either trigger it manually or use your tripod to trigger the parallax view in Unreal in real time.
5:34 So close to convincing... but the critical part of selling that effect for me is the window’s reflection of light and the environment inside. Maybe get a panel of plexiglass? Any ideas to solve that?
Great idea!
$5700.00!!! Oh yeah, I'm gonna run right out and buy a couple
I'm using a $300 1080p Projector from China with similar results. 4K would be nice, but it's not needed.
@@dietwedge which projector are you using?
@@dietwedge depends on the quality you're filming at as well. Green screen and virtual sets is another Option but the idea of no chromakey and real light interaction is the beauty of this. I'd love to try this with a projector like this.
All that to have a blurred background
@@0racleElf Not anything on this level that is for sure, it's right here. 1080p, 7200 lux and can shoot a 300'' image for under $300. I bought it for movies in the backyard and it's now got a second function :)
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07YBQ6D24/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I can think of several ways to make this have parallax 🤓
- A cheap way to do it, is to attempt to replicate a slider move you recorded and are now projecting. Using a known speed and height, you can then play back and replicate your previous slider shot.
- Another method would be to have the camera and projector spin on the same axis (⬆ Camera ------ 0 -------- Projector ⬇). In this instance, you could do some really trippy stuff with your actor standing or seated in the middle.
- Using SDI, Vive trackers, and Vive cameras, you could also translate your camera's movement to a camera in Unreal Engine without moving the projector at all.
Just some thoughts 🙂
You could use a second cheap projector shooting into something reflective placed off camera and aimed at the talent, and playing the same footage as the expensive one. That might give you some environmental lighting that’d Mach the background. I know that’s one of the the big benefits of the system they used on Mando :)
I think it DID work for Eyes Wide Shot. It looked real!
PLEASE make more episodes like this. Not only is it fascinating, its great to hear your thoughts on new pieces of technology and how this ties into movie making. Keep up the great work!
Also, ya know...Josh on a motorcycle 😂
I was getting really inspired. Then I saw the price.
That's pretty neat! Hook it up to a Unreal 5 set up and you can pretty much replicate (to an extent) what they're doing with the Mandalorian
Another fantastic video. Question. With these projectors, or if using a large monitor for close up rear projection, do we have to worry about the projected video’s frame rate or frequency matching the frame rate of the camera filming the projected background, say 24 fps?
I always wanted to get a short-throw projector. One would be great for quarantine movie making.
You can definitely use a projector with Unreal Engine, a Vive tracker on you camera, and a couple base stations to get an affordable but versatile small virtual production setup. You can even scale it with multiple projectors and a feature called Ndisplay in Unreal. For those who are interested there's a great community Facebook group called Unreal Engine: Virtual Production where everyone from Indie studios to Big productions are posting examples, asking questions, and sharing knowledge.
Yeeeeees, back to where it all began. Now waiting for someone to make it affordable for Indie Hustlers. Thank you, Film Riot!
that`s window to the city scene... man.. really bought it
I thought rear projection worked really well on Eyes Wide Shut
It's deliberate. You're supposed to know it's not right - Kubrik was nothing if not a stickler for perfection. It's the same as Pulp Fiction, a deliberate style choice.
@@ian9outof10 Seemed real to me in that one shot. I would never have known had Ryan not said it wasn't real or working well.
I know this is not your problem, but as a heads up to others. I can't download SFX using the Artlist trial. Music and Video works ok, although it's a headache having to download video clips one at a time.
You could try adding a motion track/parallax with a VR/360 scene add a VR helmet WMR/Oculus etc to the camera - Even a smartphone version would work as a test.
More of an ad for the CineBeam than a projector breakdown. Ultra short throw projectors a decent, but have a keystone size output limitation from the extreme angle of their lens->mirror. Laser projectors have a scanning refresh rate which can become prominent with certain shutterspeeds (or cause flickering). Laser, 3LCD, and DLP have very different technologies (pros/cons), same with rear and front projection. The CineBeam is 2700 Lumens, Oblivion used 15-21 10,000+ lumen projectors.
Your physical description of front projection is incorrect. The projector is not between the actor and the screen. it is shot through a beam splitter or half silver mirror (two way mirror) and onto the actor and the screen. The screen is made of Scotch Light, the same material used on road signs that return a high amount of light perpendicular to the screen. The image projected is in line with the camera focal point and there fore the image blocked by the actors from the projector is not seen by the camera.
Many Possibilities with this. Love it!
Honestly, the projected background is awesome!
Here in my country Just announced the first virtual production feature film. Seems like its a very practical technology for film making in this kind of situations
The forest behind Emily looks like a wallpaper. No depth to the trees. You would need to do the whole tracing+unreal to make it work.
Arg the price! What about sound? How loud is the projector, for interviews etc
The results in front of your film riot logo are excellent. You can get perfect color gradings on your skin tones in front of the monitor because the light from the background outlines you which you cannot duplicate in a green screen. Think about the TIME you save from delta keying out the green screen before video editing. Hours of savings. All I do is a green screen on my channel. It takes 7 hours to remove the green sceen. Add alpha channel export to dxhd and back in davanci for real-time editing on a pure black background. I capture in dnxhd 220mbit atomos 422 8bit with canon g30 camcorder and separate zoom h5 audio. Even on intel 8700k fully loaded davanci takes along time for fusion green screen. I also include noise reduction in-studio version so exports are 4 fps per sec. With this screen you can skip all that but you will still need to add noise reduction to make it look really nice.
The camera binding is done in unreal 4 which is free software. Which I'm pretty sure a projector set can handle.
i've got 99 problems but parallax ain't one, Ryan - you can very inexpensively use either a webcam based or for a bit more money (peanuts when it comes to film making) you can use a virtual reality tracking system to track the camera in VR and have a computer calculate and move the background for the appropriate perspective of the camera to achieve fully 3d virtual scenes, or if it's just backgrounds your after you could use a photosphere or 180 degree video as sources for that parallax tracking... there are so many creative ways to implement this and I think it would add quite a bit to the shot depending on what is needed. - you just add a steamvr tracker to your camera and a couple of steamvr lighthouses...
You always do super cool content.... learning a lot from you.....keep creating ✨
Thank you!
This is a real inspiration & great review Thanks a lot for your efforts! I have a simple question I wish you can help me with it please ❤️🙏 When You tries the LG 4k short throw as front projector, did you use it on a normal grey or black wall or backdrop? or you used it on a special screen with Ambient Light Rejecting ALR that are made specifically for such projectors? I wish you can help me with this as I'm planning to get a short throw 4k proctor soon? It would be highly appreciated! 🙏🙏🙏
Really amazing video, & yes I have the same question as the ARL screen are also considerably costly too. Please let us know if they are really necessary? Would the studio lights affect the quality of the projector photo so badly if it was projected directly to the wall?
@@alainjacques4256 Yes, that would be real help .. @FilmRiot I hope you can help us out? & if yes, could you please tell us which ARL screen you were using?
Yes Please kindly let us know 🔥😍 Again thanks for this amazing video! Super impressive to know such cinematic secrets!
But perhaps you can utilize some motion controlled moving camera mounts and use them in real time or pre rendered with a computer and Unreal Engine/Blender to send a dynamic background picture with the correct parallax to the projector? 🤔 Could be a solvable task.
Why don't movie makers use Vantablack paint as a background drop? Since it reflects almost no light, it wouldn't register and the image sensor couldn't detect it. So, it would be an ideal choice for background keying.
Thanks, this show's nice photography, and how it's work. Nice!
i love working for the bigger media companies so i get to play with stuff like this and virtual sets
Hmm...I'll have to try this out myself. It's amazing, I would have never thought working with projected images at this level of quality was doable. Thank you for inspiring me!!
This is just what i needed. I wanted to film in a forest at night but our forest can be sketchy. And we just got a projector so👍🏻
You should try running the Unreal Engine through that with one of the Vibe motion trackers....you could get the parallax to the backgrounds that way.
I can see the use of the projector screen featured in this episode working beautifully for silent visual productions. However, I am wondering, in the case that this product is being used for interviews, would it let off a sound that would ruin the audio production?
Unreal engine and virtual cameras are extremely easy to achieve. I'm sure something like this will work with that just fine.
I've gotten this video recommended to me at least 5 times today despite watching it twice, you did something right lol
Ryan, a question:
If you had an image from your projector slowly panning stage left as you circle your talent to the left, matching your speed with that of the projector, wouldn't that action show up on screen as parallax?
Yo, and what if you figure out some 3D wizardry to track your camera as the projector displays a realtime 3D background. There's gotta be some kind of scrappy open-source project somewhere.
If you put that Projector on a motorized cinerail / dolly in a Studio with a cylindrical screen and Setup the Projector to follow the camera movement along the rail, maybe you could achieve something similar like in the Mandalorian on a low Budget. Without the need of having to buy 6 or 7 of those expensive Projectors.
Combining this with Blenders CGI capabilities 😳🔥🔥💯
Use VR and you can have motion tracked cameras in Unreal Engine for digital set design. Mix that with a green screen or some type of projection and you got yourself Virtual Production.
If Film Riot hearts this, I'm on a winning streak.
Life is beautiful.
This actually had a pay off
Why not use the 4k projector, with unreal engine. That's connected to a real life camera and virtual camera in UE. So that when you move the real life camera, the projector moves as well, creating a paralax.
It would be so cool to see this combined with what cinematography database is doing. Between the two of you, you could build a "DIY" virtual set like the one used in the mandolorian
I would like to know how to connect the camera with the background screen like the mandalorian (parallax). How did they do that, please share this knowledge.
Matt Workman has some videos on rigging up Oculus remotes on cameras and using 3D backgrounds in Unreal Engine to do virtual productions in his basement. Pairing that with a projector like this would probably bring it even closer.
HTC Vive * remote
3:20 You can pull off the Unreal Engine production at home ... to some extent.
FXHome has a way to track motion using an Iphone and import that data into Unreal and apply it to a virtual camera in the engine.
It's not QUITE the same since you don't get the lighting from the massive led walls but you can now have 3d backgrounds that react and paralax to the camera movment.
I'd love to seee what you guys could do with this.
Wonder if it would be plausible to jerry rig up paralax using something like a VR controller on the camera to track the motion. I've seen people to VR where their live action footage is greenscreened into a view of the game, so this doesn't seem a million miles away. Especially if you can just cut your background footage into a few layers and just have the camera motion affect them, it wouldn't be a particularly complex scene to render real time. I suppose it's just if the latency of detecting the motion and then projecting it is acceptable.
4K does not mean better image quality. It just lets you zoom in further in post. And viewing 4K on its own also doesn’t to anything at normal to moderately close viewing distances. When you get to the point where you’d see pixels in Full HD on a home set up, you’d be too close to watch the movie properly anyway. Here’s demo to this topic the the cinematographer of The Last Jedi and Knives Out if you’re interested in how resolution actually functions: yedlin.net/ResDemo/index.html
This is actually amazing and there's so any uses for this I might actually buy my own.
The city shots look great
That projector would save so much time and money for me. Over time that is.
Just got into filmmaking recently again been binge watching your videos, gonna get started on a horror movie next weekend with my go pro, I know its not the best camera per se. But it does get its job done ^^
This looks really awesome! Still out of budget for most id say but it’s a start. Even to just watch movies at home
This is awesome! I really want to make a film using this technique now!!!
Of course you can have the parallax effect with that projector! you just need to feed your camera info into unreal engine and for that you dont need more than your cellphone´s gryroscope.
Been experimenting with projection and Unreal Engine VP. Sooooo many possibilities.