Ironically, healers who don't want to dps usually tend to be pretty bad at actually healing. If they spend 99% of the time spamming Cure 1 on the tank, then they don't get much practice at how to recover when shit hits the fan and they suddenly need to use their entire toolkit. DPSing as a healer also teaches you how to be proactive and prevent the shit from hitting the fan.
100% agreed. A healer that knows how to DPS is a healer that can keep the team alive while contributing the most. I once ran into a SCH in the final HW dungeon that only used Physick. As a SCH main, I was so peeved because the job has so many tools. We were going slow, he wasn't learning his job and when I asked to at least put DoTs on the enemies, he started arguing healer DPS is virtually insignificant. Yeah buddy, tell that to a SCH main who sees himself as a green DPS. The difference in dungeon speed between a healer who knows what they're doing and one who doesn't is quite noticeable.
I accept that every job is a DPS, but I still hate that they removed damage skills from Healers and went "Btw you still need to do damage" and also removing threat management from Tanks.
That's not exactly true though. Its just set up like the DPS are with raid buffs. AST is akin to your DNC/BRD where they have a lot of raid buffs but lower DMG output. SCH is more akin to your DRG/SMN with solid damage and some buffing. And WHM is your SAM/MCH/BLM equivalent, bringing raw potency over raid buffs per se. As for threat management, even in the old days of stance dancing and aggro skills it was not uncommon for me to rip hate off tanks because of bad rotations or gameplay, even with the threat management they had back then. Its now more streamlined so that the average player wont struggle with threat control as much, thus making a more enjoyable experience for your everyday player.
@@rivenansgar2415 The problem isn't with the thematics of each job. It's fine if the numbers and mechanics enforce that, conceptually. No one would argue that. The problem is with the impact these changes had on the healer and tank skill curves. Every healer now has AST's barebones DPS rotation during all points in a fight, with WHM and SCH having none of the busywork that justified that rotation on AST specifically. I'm not saying there isn't WHM or SCH specific concerns for optimization here, but their micromanagement compared to before 'only' focuses on the way they make tradeoffs for 'needing' to heal, whereas AST does have an active portion of their kit dedicated towards DPS, which can function completely independently from their healing thanks to their generous weaving opportunities with Malefic. As for tanks, the biggest problem, in my opinion, is tank mastery. Old tank stances were fine conceptually. The problem was half of them were stuck on the GCD, broke tank combos, and generally just felt bad to use. Their issues had to do with quality of life, not with their role in each tank's toolkit. Every tank should have copied WAR's two oGCD method, but Square was insistent on it being otherwise. I have no problem with these abilities being treated as the 'core' of tank gameplay. You want good aggro? Pay a Dps tax. You want extra mitigation on demand? Dps tax. The effect of current tank mastery is you always have the old 'tank' stance on, except for the aggro portion. But you also lost most of the heavy aggro generation modifiers on skills that also enabled you to dps while maintaining your lead (something I'd like reintroduced on tank filler combos, not their burst abilities). The other effect of that is it's made healers give zero fucks about tank damage. The result, strangely, is less tactical decision making. Any situation where you'd go "Do we use X cooldowns here to replace tank stance?" is gone, completely. Offtanks in particular start to fall asleep because they don't have any way to funnel their excess mitigation resources into the main tank except when busters are up. What's the point of having Nascient Flash/The Blackest Night/Intervention/Heart of Stone target allies if you don't have active reasons to use them outside of busters? And my static tanks get mad at eachother (instead of at our DPS who never used Diversion in the past) aggro now because it's so easy to just leave tank stance on after the opener that they threaten to trade aggro between their burst windows. And as a DPS I 'STILL' rip aggro off of tanks in roulettes constantly, just not during bosses. If we're going hone in on 'everyone is a dps' gameplay, I'd much rather have the option to trade between defence or sustain for additional offence as necessary on the roles that care about that as their primary job, which is then supplemented with varied core rotations that don't make those players fall asleep or want to swap roles instead of just jobs. Introducing more of those options are what would make XIV's tank and healer design appeal to both classic tanks and healers as well as our DPS focused ones. They will be exploited fully by those who want to, or used as needed by those who don't.
@@GrimoireM I agree with the healers, dps experience was neutered, specially in regard to SCH who had all these things to play with. 2 button rotation, sucks. Getting energy drain back made me laugh :D Tank aggro, honestly during raids. The tank never left dps stance from my experience, and if he was in threat stance, they'd probably get a stern talking too. Tank aggro now is easier, but better. The only aggro discussions are between the 2 people dealing with the mechanic, instead of expecting the dps to give a shit. I pull off my co-tank enough times, but it's not hard to weave in the tank stance button if you're catching up in threat. Tank dps wise, nothing has changed, threat stance was only the opener and a crutch that newer players used.
@@FoxiestDuck To me the issue with tank aggro stemmed mostly from poor QoL present in the tank stances themselves, and non-tanks having too much access to aggro reduction or cuts. Tanks should have good snap aggro tools, but if a DPS is going hard properly, the tank should feel some stress from that if they're not doing their rotation properly (and even is somewhat solved by building aggro modifiers into filler abilities apart from those purely used for snap aggro). Most extreme aggro issues can be solved with a tighter gear curve, consistent use of gear caps (Dead on Arrival content like Normal Raids/Alliances/Ex Trials all would benefit from this, but all level cap dungeons should be using it as well. The issue with Tank mastery now is that you're 'always' in tank stance, at least in terms of DPS output. The reason I want the tradeoff to exist is because I'd like to see the consistent use of stance dancing by tanks as a requirement both for survival and for aggro management in savage, at least while main-tanking. The problem with SE's inability to make that a proper threat stems from their raid design. So rather than try to solve the issue, they pushed it aside so it was no longer a concern, and XIV's depth suffers for it.
@@GrimoireM This was well stated. This is probably the biggest issues that I have with healers and tanks. Tanking is fine now, but it doesn't feel as meaningful. And the issue is that everything, like a lot of mmos these days, is about killing everything as fast as possible. While that's always the most optimal and meta way to play, it just feels so asinine and vapid.
When I decided to try my hand at being a healer (SCH in my case) after trying different DPS classes I set out to be the best healer I could be, making sure the party's health was always full and free of bad statuses. Instead, I was pulled aside by one tank and asked politely why I wasn't contributing to the damage output of the party. That's when I realised my DPS days weren't over and that healers had an extra level of responsibility. Over time though, it has let me to feel more engaged in duties and feel I'm making an extra contribution, however I still chuckle sometimes at still being expected to DPS as a healer.
It's a bit of reverse psychology isn't it? Phases designed for everyone to go ham on the boss and then back to their designed roles after is a cycle not a lot of raids even in WoW bring up anymore. Though to be fair the gameplay of FFXIV is different on a fundamental level than WoW so that's like comparing apples to oranges.
This has never happened to me. I Whm pretty much exclusively but on Boss fights I don't DPS aside from Misery and a Dot. The floor spam won't let me cast and if I get caught in any mechanic above a 50 dungeon it will usually delete me because healers defense is so low. This is also why nobody mains Blm in Shb. Can't cast with all the floor spam. The game isn't so much a DPS as it is a Mobile DPS.
I remember failing the DPS check on Living Liquid's adds over and over again because one of our healers only stood around doing nothing when he didn't have to heal. That same healer cussed at our DPS and tanks for not doing enough damage when we failed killing adds over and over that reached the edge with slivers of health... Yeah, needless to say we never cleared the fight and the group soon split up because of the drama that guy caused. >_
I remember struggling hard on week 2 of doing Living Liquid, managed to do a clear of 1/2 on the first week - though as the ninja in the group without a warrior, it was pretty awful (I wasn't really that good at ninja either)
It's not the dps that directs the meta, it's the uptime and the optimization behind it. So ofc, while we had a few of healing gcd during ARR, the uptime was more about casting healing, like spamming Cure II on main tank, but now, since we have a lot more healing spells, both in ogcd and in gcd, healers can use more of their uptime to cast offensive spells, and this dynamic makes the healing meta way more fun to play actually, since you have two layers of optimization on your uptime : healing optimization and dps optimization. And about healing, you did a whole case about the fact that Cleric Stance was a wall to the DPS meta on healing, but then, said that Gordias contributed to the current DPS meta on FFXIV... But Cleric Stance has been deleted in the 4.0, not the 3.0, and Gordias was the worst healing meta on the game, because it was all about WHM as a main heal, who had to deal with 80% of the damages, and SCH who had to stay as much as possible on his Cleric Stance. If the healers were more oriented on heals during ARR, it was because of one thing you didnt even talked on your video (and why I think you are kinda out of touch about your subject, atleast about the healers) : Mana management. Back at ARR, it was common to have to makes a choice between dpsing, and keeping mana to manage incoming damages, because you had only one mana management spell for both WHM and SCH, I remenber using mana potions during T13 at the opener, just to be able to use a second one later during the fight, and, more important, since we were struggling with mana, every death on the party was a blow for the healers, and so, it was common too to not dpsing just to be able to raise someone if they dies on a mechanic. Now, mana isnt an issue at all, you dont have to make a choice between using your mana for dping, or using it for healing, you can do both. Someone die? Your RDM or your SMN can raise it. Lack of mana? You can use one of your numerous mana management spell, or even a mana potion if really you are in a difficult situation (and using a mana potion is something that archaic nowadays that most of the healers dont bring mana potion with them before starting a raid).
Man I really miss tank stances, I felt like I was PUMPING numbers and I felt like there was a high skill ceiling and it felt so rewarding to push your damage. I actually had to think about aggro and I had a level of control over if I live or die if a healer goes down. A good tank used to do so much damage you could carry pug savage groups in pf adventures, now I feel like I'm at complete mercy at my dps in the pug. Suddenly everyone and their grandma is parsing 99 cause all jobs in the game are so easy to play now. (rdps is part of this as well, but I feel like the skill ceiling putting high end players and the midcore players apart is completely gone and my damage now fully relies on crit rng and kill time rather than good cooldown usage to stay in dps stance for as much as possible.)
It's almost like fate ordained that I hop back in for a meta tailored to my playstyle. No more spamming Flash as a PLD while looking at Sword Oath as a forbidden fruit, lmao.
sword oath was never a forbidden fruit man, it was the off tank's stance in parties and your go to in solo fights, still a fair point but give it a little more credit than that.
@@sparemobius7430 I wasn't trying to imply that Sword Oath didn't have its uses, I was more talking about using it in 4-mans as a new tank. I wanted that extra damage, but I got flamed for using it because I didn't know the concept of the holy trinity back in the ARR days. Best believe I was always the off tank for 8-mans, though, a Sword Oath sounds a lot cooler than a Shield Oath.
@@LeChibiDrummer it does sound cooler, you could also sneak it in every now and then, but it was sort of hard to hold agro without shield oath, maybe for mobs if your DPS could burst it down fast enough a single flash might be enough, but sword oath really didn't get to be used as much as the only tank in a party, that is very true. Not sure how it is now, but I guess sword oath for all it's cooler naming really does get the short end of the stick in most scenarios. Gotta say though, the whole spamming flash is why I started to prefer Warrior, might not have been as good back in the day at holding agro, but it was a lot more fun to spam their aoe agro.
@@sparemobius7430 Currently, Sword Oath is a 3-stack buff you get after your melee combo that allows you to use Atonement which grants you mana with each use. It's like DRK's blood weapon, but only for 3 attacks. A bit underwhelming for what the name implies, but Shield Oath isn't even in the game anymore, it's called Iron Will now.
@@LeChibiDrummer so can you use sword oath with the agro still up? Cus that would be nice. I stopped playing back in the first expansion for reasons and just never got to pick it back up.
Everything hard has an enrage now. In 2.X, I remember bringing 3 tanks to Titan EX because one of them needed to be carried, and it was fine because mechanics looped. No way something like that would fly now.
I remember certain fight where you could bring one healer and it would be fine if everyone knew what to do. I'm not sure if it was unsynced but stuff like that was always fun.
While I do agree every job in this game is a dps, i think it's a bad message for new players. While true, I've scene so many instances where tank players (I notice them more being a tank main myself) know how to deal good damage, but dont know how to tank in the slightest. I've seen a dark knight main who parsed well but was always ot and has never actually tanked. Didnt know what cds were good when and nearly all mana was spent on edges, with a tbn thrown out very occasionally. They judged their skill on fflogs, went into TEA, and got absolutely torn apart. So yeah I do agree that all jobs are there to do a lot of damage alongside their role, but i think for new players and for players picking up a new role, I think it really needs to pushed that people should learn the role first.
It's a low %... Most of the new tanks i met in the game got the "i tank, i protect, not dmg" kind of logic, which is a problem reaaaally hard to solve once it's there... you can always blame the team for the lack of dps and trying to prove them wrong is a pain in the squalala... If you die on a tank buster every time as a DRK, party wipes, your fault, easy to point and learn. So i think it's better to learn to dps in a large audience and fix the "use your cds and read your skills" part after...
@@ShirokamiHichino Thing is using your cds efficiently and taking less damage is part of dpsing. As far as raid damage you'll be giving your healers the opportunity to dps more. Using this cooldown to cover these large amounts of autos, that cooldown to cover raid damage. Not to mention the reactionary cds all tanks have. Blackest night, intervention, nascent flash, heart of stone on such a short cooldown. There's also things like boss positioning. There's more to tanking than just me take autos and busters. I'm not saying doing good dps is a bad message, I'm just saying there are other more important things to learn as a tank first as optimizing tank and healer damage wont matter anyway until your hitting higher end content
@@spreadartifact1517 Well, I've never said being efficient with cds or boss positionning wasn't important but it's 50/50 with the DPS aspect of the job... I'm just saying you can find more easily people teaching you how to use cds and not to spin with your boss (even if I agree the "how to efficiently move a boss" part could deserve a full video on its own...). But learning and changing mentalities about how important it is to consider your DPS also valluable as a tank is a really hard task considering it goes against all other games' mentality. To me, that's why I think it's important to say "tanks are DPS"... To compare with actualities, it's almost as if "tanks and healers are DPS too" is the "black lives matter" of FFXIV : that doesn't mean they are only DPS... That doesn't mean other lives doesn't matter... That means that "in the mind of many people it's not clear, so we have to say it louder so people find it more and more casual"... Or something like that =D Edit : to me, it's even more true in lategame but I think it can be important to teach all sides of a job through progress, as I've always done with people I coached...
Spread Artifact That’s basically what this video covers. Optimizing output while maintaining the bare minimum requirements of what’s expected of your role. Which is if you’re tanking, is to maintain mitigations and positioning. All this while maximizing dps uptime. That is where the skill cap lies. He goes over these points more extensively in his in-depth tank guides. Moreover, I’m sure this video is directed at those who fully grasp the concept of their roles and wish to optimize their gameplay. Which is mainly what this channel is for. UA-cam is saturated with beginner guides for newcomers. There are some like me who already understand the basics and wish to improve their performance in every way possible.
I think if Square wants tanks and healers to tank or heal more, they should design encounters that require it. I've been enjoying ultimate because it feels like it's a tier of difficulty that encourages me to use my healing kit in a way I've never needed in savage. Healing spells are extremely strong right now, and you barely need to use more than one to patch up the party after a raidwide. It's kind of crazy how strong they are in comparison to healers in other MMOs, which have to dedicate the majority of their time keeping people alive.
It wouldn't change things. Healers would just cast more healing between damage, and tanks, well... damage doesn't use ANY tanking resources at all so it wouldn't matter.
During the entirety of Stormblood and the majority of Heavensward, tanks were expected to drop their tank stance for most of end game fights. The idea was to only keep your stance for the opener to generate enough enmity. Oh, and also to basically never use your enmity combo except in some openers, depending on the job. So did Shadowbringers delete tank stances? Well, yes, but actually, no, because they were already being used only as a tool for aggro since Gordias. Sure, one can argue that ShB made it more "casual", but honestly at this point, I'd argue it was more of a quality of life change at that point.
It's because of this meta shift that I don't even bother with savage or most extremes anymore. The only time I actually feel like a classic tank is when I'm doing giant dungeon pulls and might actually die. Everything else just had me playing as a DPS with boring rotations. There's no additional complexity either, no questions of should I switch back to tank stance to mitigate damage or boost my threat generation for a bit. They need to add something else to the role, because as it stands right now, it's the easiest thing to do by a country mile and gets boring af once get your easy rotation down.
Maybe that's is why we have so many people playing DPS class and making queues so long.. Healer and tank getting pressure to DPS just make people choose DPS class, it's easier to DPS when you just have to DPS
@@lynndylan4674 Is not a question of DPS or not DPS while healing, the problem is how you judge the healer and the tank. Rank them by amount of damage? For me doesn't make sense. I dont think others mmo have sooooo long queues when you are DPS.
@@LincolnBorgesrp I agree, and that's why using DPS meters is and always have been a violation of ToS. If we got back to a distinct role distinction, with Tanks knowing they are going to hold aggro and absorb damage for the team and Healers knowing they are going to focus on keeping everyone else strong while avoiding taking damage themselves, we'd have more players willing to Tank and Heal. People play DPS now because it's the only single-role role.
Ranger Smith I understand your point of view, the problem I see here is, when I played wow a couple of years ago, I would fall asleep when playing tank or heal in dungeons, it felt like I wasn't helping at all so it was just a few button press from time to time so... I'd take naps between pulls xd
Its so true. As a healer, its sometimes hard for me to let go of the old ways. I truly do wish the healer/tank meta would shift back to a more defensive, GCD healing method. I feel it would make doing higher DPS much more satisfying. But that would require SE adjusting how they design encounters and I don't think that will ever happen.
Most people who want to keep the old ways, don't even play at a high end game level. Simply because they wont clear dps checks, unless carried and no group wants to carry someone
I think part of the reason why DPS has been pushed to the forefront is that it's the only output in FFXIV that's both analog and, for the most part, self-determined. Healing and holding aggro are roles that more or less have pretty rigid success/fail states for which the parameters are primarily affected by the competency of your team. Back when holding aggro was something that actually mattered, it was only really a massive problem if you either died and had to suffer through the res debuff, or if your team was mismatched (and the DPS didn't know what Diversion was). Similarly, the difficulty of healing is tied directly to how error prone your team is. Are the tanks mitigating corrrectly? Are your DPS using their utility abilities? Is anyone standing in the fire? DPS, on the other hand, is both innately rewarding (since it gets the encounter done faster) and is mostly self-contained outside of raid buffs. Getting 10% more DPS gets you something tangible, whereas 10% more healing, when people already aren't dying, likely gives you nothing, especially since danger usually comes from heavy burst damage rather than the need to sustained heal. Raising the healing requirements doesn't really change much, besides making things more punishing. People are still going to try to go as close to the line as possible, since there's no reason not to besides safety. (The main exception to this is in some of the earlier dungeons, where better mitgation/healing = potentially the ability to pull more mobs, but with the current 1-3 mobs before a hard gate design, that's also not really relevant anymore)
I honestly WISH we could go back to something a little more complex rather than "see thing, hit thing". Ya its cool to be aggressive and ASSIST in dps but I personally don't believe that maximizing dps should be the MAIN aspect for tanks and healers. Granted, I've only tanked and healed early raids and raids of prior expansions, but the idea of "hit it til it dies" seems almost pretty simple. Yes mechanics add a thin layer of complexity to fights but where did the debuffs and cc go? Where did the SUPPORT from healers go? Where are those clutch moments when the whole party has an insta death spell on em that the healers HAVE to Esuna to remove? It just feels like 14 has been overly simplified. Don't get me wrong, imma still play tf out of it. And even though its one of my favorite MMOs, I still feel like its missing something important to the classes that could add ALOT more complexity and fun to the game.
"Where are those clutch moments when the whole party has an insta death spell on em that the healers HAVE to Esuna to remove?" Are you, really, playing the game? It's litteraly one of the first mechanic of TEA, which has been released recently... And FFXIV has been not overly simplified, the heck, just watch vids of the ARR raids, all the mechanics looks and are simple as fuck when you see the fights now x)
I only wish that healers had a bit more complexity to their DPS rotations. It gets boring when you are just pressing one button constantly. I think we have enough OGCD heals to keep the party alive so why not have more DPS skills? Maybe even remove some healings skills and reduce the cooldown on others so we have a proper DPS rotation which requires proper skill upkeep while still being able to weave in our heals when needed. Just a thought.
As a healer main coming in to FF14, this is by far the most fun and skillful design for this archetype. It is so much more fun and interesting watching HP bars and keeping people alive while figuring out how to maximize DPS, than it is to just chill and keep the health bars full.
"Every job is DPS" That's not a good thing, though. This excessive focus on DPS completely kneecaps the design of the tanks and healers. The process of tanking and healing simply can't be made too complicated, lest you become unable to push your fat deeps at the same time. That's what leads to precisely what we're seeing - tank rotations focused 99.9% on damage rather than mitigation, and healing mechanics that are painfully homogenized and simple.
The only way it's going to change is if SE decides to completely re-design how damage is done in raids. There's simply no reason to be focused on mitigation and healing most of the time since you can pre-plan all your cd's for every single fight. Everything is 100% scripted all the way down to the timing on CD's for used for mitigation and healing so that you always have something up to take on whatever mechanic is coming next. While I would personally like to see more emphasis put on mitigation and threat as well as mitigation through healing, It's simply going to stay the same unless they completely redesign and revamp the way boss damage works.
IMO stormblood was great in that regard. Yes, everyone was a dps, but the entire party participated in damage mitigation and aggro management, astrologians were actually fun to play and so on
You do realize that tanks generate threat by doing damage right. In almost every mmorpg tank abilities have a threat modifier with that damage, but you're still supposed to be doing damage, because that's how you generate and hold aggro, doing damage. So of course the rotation is 99% damage based. Even in HW you'd Shield Halone 3 times(if your gear was meh) and then go straight into Sword RA spamming with goring refreshs sprinkled in. If anything the most annoying part about old tanking is sometimes you'd have to swap back to your threat rotation because someone isn't using their enmity reducer, good ridance to threat management. Also the only way to get rid of healers dpsing in downtime is to remove all their dps abilities (which is unreasonable). It's also like this in most mmorpgs.
@@zomgpeoplestolemname IMO the best, most engaging way to handle tanking is something called active mitigation. What this means is that the amount of damage you can mitigate is directly tied to how well you play - not just in terms of managing CDs correctly, but in how well you're handling your rotation. At that point, mitigation is the main output of your gameplay, with DPS and threat being side products. Basically, if you play well, you survive. If you mess up, the boss smashes you to bits. It's infinitely more exciting and engaging than this pure DPS model.
Well, nowadays people are not have too many patience to play as a tank or a healer. Most of them are only know to DPS, high dmg fast clearing. But, it's sad too see that the role of a tank and healer are now leaning towards DPS style of play..Almost like Aura Kingdom vibe play.
You know I was a tank as a portion of my playthrough... I wasn't that bad... However I did have parties who went gung ho and ran ahead of me... I just sat back watched them die and be like What happened... Did you run ahead of your tank and massively attract enemies when the tank SPECIFICALLY warned you not to do as such
If there’s one thing I don’t like about shadowbringers is that it streamlined healing and tanking this way. I remember picking up my main WHM after the release and realizing that it’s boring now. Like, sure, I do more healing and damage, but I press less buttons.
thank you for this video im just starting this game out and it help me dispell the lazy mindset of just doing your job it makes it much more interesting to play!
This is honestly the better version of the holy trinity IMO. Support roles like tank and healer do support but they still have to push their damage. Look at ARPGs like Monster Hunter or Dark Souls, if you want to play more support-y for your friends, you can totally do that and be effective but you'll still be pumping out some good damage along the way (especially if you play Hunting Horn holy shit those fuckers crush some skulls.)
i disagree and its honestly more boring that way. as a healer in ffxiv, you barely need to heal in savage which doesnt offer the healing intensive mechanics that it needs to fully call yourself a healer, look at whm lmao, whm almost does more dmg than tanks. Healing is mostly always heavily needed in ultimates which I hate. Same with Tank, you barely dont do anything as a tank besides tank swap. You are mostly dpsing like 90% of the time and aggro management is a joke.
@@xKunoz Like I said just my opinion, not eveyone has to share it. I would say though, I really don't care for "aggro management" at least in the way most MMOs handle it. The way games like WoW handles it, or even FFXIV before ShB, it just feels like a nuisance and punishes you for a teammate doing well which doesn't feel good in a cooperative environment. Threat never felt like a difficulty to me, more of a spinning plate that you gave a swipe every now and then to keep it going. So I really appreciate that tank stances dramatically increase enmity now.
cyb201 Yeah, right. Casting Broil 8 thousand times in a row is so much fun. This is where you’ll tell me they can fix that by giving healers a damage rotation, which I’ll then reply wondering what the point of having a healer is at all if they are merely expected to OGCD heal every now and again while doing mechanics and maximizing DPS like everyone else. Remove damage from bosses altogether except for mechanics and get rid of tanks and healers. It’s functionally no different than where we are going now.
xKunoz I agree with you man. As a newer player, this dps meta is actually turning me off slowly. Not enough variation between roles in an MMO feels weird. Everyone’s job is the same exact thing? I’m exaggerating a bit but you get my point. Even more off putting to me is the amount of fanboyism for this meta and a lot of people defend it to the death like it’s the best thing ever. It’s boring
@@TheSpicyLeg personally i really enjoy casting broil 8000 times because that is not the only thing im doing. its that healing/dps balance we have to guage and how to optimise it that makes it fun. for me healing is hard enough as is so i wouldnt want a full rot for healer. theres enough to keep track of already if ur playing them correctly
DPS has always been important. I think what has changed is that the game expects players to be *greedy* for that DPS. I haven't watched the guides referenced, since I heal, but Aggressive is a good word for it. In Stormblood, things began to change so that it is easier to be greedy on healers and tanks. Since this game is focused on memorization and muscle memory, greedy play then became the best play. After all wiping isn't that much of a punishment if it meant better play in the future. It's why proponents of more careful play either desire more RNG in the fights, or more punishment for dying/wiping. While the former might be possible, the casual nature of the game means the latter won't happen - since the only thing that players really are afraid of... is wasting time.
What's funny is that the general philosophy of losing or dying in a game, MMOs especially, was wasted time and effort with only learning from failure being the only positive. If you take away any meaningful punishment, (imagine if they removed lockouts and time gated stuff) then everyone would become apathetic towards it. I think that's why the souls games were so interesting. It took that punishment and made you feel it. All of your souls gone, time wasted, because you didn't take the actual time to be careful. And you learned from it.
@@Zayindjejfj The perfect comparison to this would be that dark souls is the opposite to bloodborne, because dark souls is very defensive and calculated, while bloodborne of very sporadic and engaging. Despite that last part many people have gone on record of saying that bloodborne is rather dull after you figure out that all you have to do is pump up your hp and damage, then spam every mob or boss away. Ff14 would do well with some randomness thrown into its dungeon, making it much harder to pre-plan everything, or even just have muscle memory of the entire raid. This is what invasions did for dark souls...it made areas that one could normally run through without trouble solo into a menagerie of confusion, pain, and a loss of progress and this "time". At the end of the day it isn't about time, it's about ease...it's too easy to tank and heal, it's too easy to do certain raids and dungeons once you know how to do them which makes wasting time seem important. There's nothing mixing it up, and the devs aren't helping the situation by making it easier to tank and heal, thus incentivize players to dps all the time.
Unfortunately that’s why I quit the game despite its great story and aesthetics. I play tank and healer to tank and heal, not to be a dps. I much prefer ESO style of tanking and healing and providing supports by buffing and debuffing.
Before this video I’ve never seen another content creator really talk about this topic. But I’ve always strived to be top DPS no matter what role or class I’m playing to show myself that it’s possible to push to be better. I don’t tell randoms about their shortcomings but for my friends I play with, it helps them set a benchmark for where they need to be
All jobs have dps in their role. Not all jobs have that as the single most important part of their role. Know this and know how to play roles. Great wisdom from ancient times.
As a DRK and GNB main pumping out damage and mitigating damage to the max is such a rewarding feeling. When the whole party humming along at max effort is the best feeling ever. The raid slash boss fight feels like a symphony. The coordinated movements without communicating is the best.
all I have to say is god I miss stance dancing and cleric stance. just those 2 things being removed made it impossible to tell the difference between a truly good player and a player that just knows were to stand and when to move.
It's like people forgot the main objective of 99% of all encounters is to make the boss's health go from 100% to 0. Whatever class your playing doesn't change that objective in the slightest.
That's a rough way of looking at it, but you are nonetheless correct. But that's also like looking at sex and thinking the only good part is the climax at the end. While it's definitely awesome, all the stuff that happened before that was great too. And everyone likes different stuff, not everyone wants missionary...maybe someone wouldn't mind if a few fingers went on a journey where the sun don't shine (this is a joke I don't want fingers in my ass). Not everyone wants to be a dps all the time...which is what the game basically requires of you, despite the big giant blemish on the games face of having class archetypes. While the raid is only complete once the boss is dead, which is everyone's job, your healer should make sure the tank stays alive so that the dps can well...dps and not eat attacks. And the problem with this is that two of these job types are too easy to do now. Tanking is literally turn on tank stance bam you are now tank, and healers have way too many abilities to deal with every problem that isn't being dead. The dps heavy meta the game has isn't bad, but it's definitely confusing. To be called a tank, and told my role, and even the tank tutorial in game reinforces what you would expect of being a tank, and then the games like "lul you're a dps with a lot of hp." But to reiterate, you're still correct...so yeah.
Tanks always melded str and crit/det in 2.0 etc. Now it’s crit det and skill speed to get a short enough gcd to fit all your abilities within your burst window. I love how you added Xenosys’ video in here. That’s when I was learning warrior in scob and never never looked back. Another piece of sold content my guy. I miss tf outta shb and are warrior. Swapping from defiance to deliverance after pulling a huge mob and gaining a comfy aggro lead and then just melting everything with cleaves and decimates. Swapping back to heal myself with steel cyclone if needed.
As a new player who started a month ago and decided to go Scholar and has up to Stormblood postgame stuff I am glad they made it like this, being pure healer is nice and all but being able to put that extra dps makes it even more fun and challenging
Not that i disagree with you, but i think that is the "evolution" of every rpg that uses the holy triad of tank/heal/dps In a certain way, having your specific job of mitigating or healing is appealing and should be the focus of your class, being able to deal high damage without playing a dps job is a plus to some people (like myself), Square just simplified this system to a whole new level in ShB, bringing it closer to wow's tanking, where u basically dps and move the boss while keeping mitigation up and using defensives to reduce damage from busters. I think i kind of repeated some thinks you said in your video, but i don't think this meta is bad, this is just what happens with triad's mmos, the more people try to optmize fights, the more dps becomes important, while only using minimal healing and mitigation. Sorry for the bad or confusing english. Love your videos and guides. :D
Honestly as a healer main I have had this issue for awhile. In fact the better I got at the game and the more I did savage content the more I realised that I was just another dps but with a 2 button rotation. It really killed the game for me for a long time since I've always idolized the stereotypical healer. One doing everything in her power to keep her team alive and safe. I've never wanted to dps but as this video rightly points out, there is no reason not to dps. Even in Ultimate level content you still have healers that can solo heal the fight and still have plenty of time to put out more damage. It has made me consider just switching to a dps main so many times I can't even count them. Don't get me wrong I still love the game but the fights just feel like mindless chores when you're stood spamming glare, broil or malefic and the role I did actually sign up for (healing) is the one thing I'm NOT doing.
That's because every class that isn't classified as a dps is a special dps..healers are a discount dps that can heal (despite the fact most classes seem to have some form of self healing, especially tanks). Tanks are discount dps that can survive getting hit thanks to their special abilities that reduce their damage, and are easy to play now that managing aggro is as easy as turn on tank stance and now you are tank. And dps are the best, which is why they are the majority of the three archetypes. A huge problem with this "class role party" gameplay is everyone is delving into everyone else's territory too much....why can tanks be self sustaining? Why do dps have damage mitigation abilities, why does everyone have damage increasing buff/skills. I played a game called seven knights years ago, and the game recently had to be completely overhauled front the ground up because despite the devs best efforts every party in the game was 5 dps characters....no tanks, no healers, no buff classes. Just dps, which made the game one dimensional, and every arena champion was the same team of characters for like 3 years straight. And the reason this was the case is because there were characters that could do ludicrously high damage...and heal.........and mitigate damage....and buff themselves. People constantly say they love the system because it gives them more stuff to do, well if uptime was all you wanted then making healing more than big heal done would also satisfy that desire, same for tanking. Sorry for the long comment.
Honestly I think it's fine. It reminds a me of how I'd build my parties in the older final fantasy games. This also is makes sure healer don't get bored, and the encounters are designed around "Healers have to be healing"
what I really think they didn't need to ruin was the enmity system - keeping aggro as a tank is such a non-issue nowadays, you can virtually grab any add with one damage skill. i'm fine with them getting rid of attacks specifically related to enmity but I feel that's a layer of complexity that didn't get in the way of DPSing and didn't need to get axed.
problem is raid bosses never put out enough outgoing damage to require intense healing, and tanks are usually very self sufficient with all the defensives they have, so if you are doing your job right no one should ever be in danger of dying so all thats left is to hit dps buttons, also in today's content you either do the mech right or you die so the benefits of being a pure healer is diminished, if everyone is doing there job 100% perfectly all thats left for you to do is spam holy (or whatever you healers do lol)
the only addendum I would add to this video would be that in ARR through HW sch was just a green dps to most higher tier sch players. especially since ast wasn't balanced right until towards the end of hw so it was rare to see. between your fairy snapshotting stats on summon and lustrate being a % based heal rather than potency based you could effectively fully buff mind, summon eos, hit clerics stance and then never turn it off outside of a few mechanics if your groups white mage didn't care about dpsing. maybe it wasn't as common back then but I definitely knew people who played that way in ARR including myself when things started to get optimized in the groups I joined.
I agree with the videos but I'd suggest the first priority to be what only your job can do. I've seen so many wipes because the tanks don't mitigate TB, healers only glaring/broiling/maleficing that the party wiped to raidwide. I hate when I get co-healer like that. I don't want to spend Plenary + x2 rapture + medica 2 to top everyone up before raidwide while my co-healer just dps away.
I do love the new system, despite it blurring the lines between the roles now. It streamlines the gameplay for new players without being too intimidating, while still leaving room to improve for people who concern themselves with maximizing their damage.
@@RavenL1337 You're measuring your damage to how long you have until this boss enrages, the duty timer runs out, or you lose the war of attrition as the boss has infinite resources. Us players don't. It's a regressive mentality to find fault in a method just because it demands more effort from you. Even a healer who stands there eyeing a butterfly will still end up letting players due as they aren't being proactive and constantly casting the most helpful spell at that time. They react _after_ the damage has been done and get overwhelmed as they blow resources playing catch up to the fight in question. Similarly for a tank who's just mashing Rampart and not thinking ahead to the best next cooldown or remembering that the faster an enemy dies, the less chances and time they have to kill you.
Also, healers had to meld Accuracy for raid content until Stormblood, which is useless for healing. IIRC in ARR missing an energy drain meant you didn't get the mana gain either.
While I agree that XIV is probably one of the games where doing DMG on non DPS is more common, I still can't agree with most of the points that are made in the video. Regarding ARR and cleric stance you make it seem like cleric stance was only used by a small amount of people because you might activate it at the wrong time, leading to someone's death. This might be true but the issue we have is that DMG is always 100% scripted. Cleric stance loses it's risk value after the first few clears, because there's no real variation to the damage pattern in the fight. WoW manages this by dealing random instances of damage that must be healed. Tanks honestly got the one thing that made them unique from DPS classes stripped away from them. While Emnity management wasn't hard for most people, it certainly still was an aspect that you had to pay attention to. Sometimes holding aggro was even pretty hard (O8S Godkefka especially at the start). Now they just ruined the Emnity system, completely destroying its purpose for the sake of making it easy. DPS is always the endgame in MMOs. Most instances of damage are scripted and DPS is the only value that can be optimized. HP has a maximum value, DPS can be farmed to the simulated limit.
Honestly with this meta tanking may have lost it's defense focused playstyle, but I do feel like the skill of playing Healer and Tank has been shifted and expressed in different ways now. Due to the DPS-meta mindset, I honestly believe that it's easier to see good healers and tanks than ever before. For healers, the name of the game isn't "keep" everyone topped off as a healer. It's now more a "How much damage can the team take before I need to heal them" mindset where you're trying to push as much damage casts as you can before actually having to heal. oGCD's become extremely important to manage, and positioning properly for mechanics a must. Add in timing properly mitigation to mitigate as much raidwide damage as possible so you can keep casting, and Healer's have much more to show off their skill than just a simple "I can keep everyone alive". It's a "I can keep everyone alive, deal damage, and still mitigate stuff" For tanks, the skill needed to do tanking properly is something I really can't understate. As a tank, mitigating damage isn't that hard anymore, as you almost always have something to use, but for bosses that move like E8S, positioning the boss, driving them to the right spot for your party to keep uptime, and mitigating damage not just for yourself, but properly timing Reprisal and party buffs like Shake it Off or Heart of Light with your healers and ranged DPS, all while maintaining your rotation perfectly is where the real skill for a tank comes in now.
They know their market is the more special brand of mmorpg player and putting a pure support class in would cause too much frustration. Guess it is kinda nice knowing we have a short bus for mmorpgs.
1.) The game specifically tells Healers to DPS when it's not necessary to heal 2.) The game specifically tells DPS to attack enemies that attack the healer, probably so the healer can DPS the mob while not taking any damage (you know, what DPSing usually is). 3.) The meta does not apply in 99% of the cases, unless it's savage content. Sure, other clases are expected to do damage too, BUT in 99% of cases I witnessed it goes like this: - Tank draws the heat from the mob/boss and starts killing. - DPS pick off any enemy that hasn't been killed by the tank yet and also make sure the party doesn't get overwhelmed. - Healsers keep everyone alive while also dealing damage when no one is close to dying. - Everyone has buffs and debuffs they need to keep up. 4.) The game is not just Raids. Also, meta is irrelevant when not aiming for the top, and even then others who don't chase numbers can outshine them in any and every aspect. 5.) You literally can't level if you don't kill. You can and wil be attacked. Which is why healers need offensive spells in the first place. 6.) The game still upholds the basic roles, bujt just let's you go more wild. That's it.
Seeing this as the reason why it is like it is kinda hurts. I hope they return to not everyone being DPS' in some future expansion, tho i dont have much faith in that happening since the way it's now seems to get into every game right now :(
Here's my problem with it from the viewpoint of a newer player: The rotations are boring as *FUCK* I know that, as I am new, I might be missing something. But if you're going to design the game so that everyone is basically DPS, then why are the rotations for Tanks and Healers so sleep inducing? The only one that doesn't bore the shit out of me is Gunbreaker. It just seems backwards to me. I do not have a problem with a DPS meta, but at least give Tanks and Healers some more fun DPS buttons to push. Just my 2 Gil.
What level are you at my guy? Things get better the closer you get to 80. They had to remove/combine a lot of the skills you got before in order to make the rotations not so big or complex for 80s.
@@kadian299 All my Tanks are 60-66. Good to hear they're more involved at 80. So far I just pull a whole bunch of crap and spam my 3 AoE buttons and press buttons that make me not die.
I have everything at 80. While yes Healer DPS "rotations" are literally spamming one button, while keeping your DoT up, you have to be hyper aware of everyone around you at all times. And Tank DPS rotations aren't boring at all. Not as complex as proper DPS, but I refuse to believe someone can look at GNB's rotation and think its boring when compared to a proper DPS
@@Vyomesh839 nah it's still like that at 80. I'd say the dps aoe rotations aren't much more involved then that too though. Healers dps variety is boring af though for sure. I think with tanks having to use a defense rotation all the time makes up for it's slightly less complex dps rotation
I belive even in a world where Gordias never happened the dps meta was still inevitable to happen sooner or later. When skill and knowledge on the game kept growing people would have started to push for more efficient play. Gordias just made it happen earlier than it otherwise would.
Healers just healing would be boring since you have so many tools to top up allies (atleast as a white mage). Making healers forced to also deal damage makes raiding more complex and forcing you to multitask and pay attention to every mechanic (positioning, raid wide damage, denying tank busters) as well as pushing your personal dps with PoM at the beginning of the fight and finding that 12 second lull where you can focus at dps while everyone is still alive and in the fight.
hi lynx i always enjoy your content , i wonder if u could make like a video of lets say a warrior gameplay on savage and u talking about what cooldowns to use , when to use your burst combo etc etc . i know i can always look up fflogs but its always nice to actually see it and your thoughts if u get what i mean . keep up the good work lynx !
Next xpac will be interesting to see what direction new skills take the tank and healer jobs in. Will there be more dps buttons for them, or more healing/mitigation...or perhaps a combo of the two? As a vet of other MMOs where tank dps was practically non-existent, I rather enjoy being able to beat the hell out of things as a tank in XIV
During the first raid tier of ARR warriors had no choice but to play as dps on nearly every fight. Hell even selling Titan HM runs was all about the Warrior dealing the dps the guy getting carried wasnt.
Wasn't Gordias' also heavily gear gated? The first group that cleared had a truly optimal run, and faiiled; but one more week of ilvl210 gear and they were able to pass the check. From what I remember anyway.
Iirc Gordias was designed to be a completed by farming gear from it. So that you'd complete A3 and A4 after a few weeks of hearing up in A1 and A2. This either wasn't communicated very well, if at all, or the community hated that idea and chose to brute force their way through by minimizing time in tank stance and maximizing time in Cleric Stance to maximize the raid's total DPS output to accommodate for the lack of needed gear. Tanks would switch to melee DPS accessories and it wouldn't be until 3.2 that they made tank accessories "viable" for tanking again. Gordias was a giant mess that destroyed the raiding scene and permanently changed the game's meta (for better or worse).
@@osuBlaziken I never heard about the KN servers clear; I know the CN servers cleared week 1, but they had 6 weeks of prep for savage instead of 2. Their version also was tweaked so the dps checks were easier compared to the version NA/EU/JP got in 3.0. While still amazing to do. Their version wasn't as 'hard' as our version. Again I have no info about the Korean server
The only thing I want is for healers to at least get a dps rotation that is involved as the Tank jobs. Keeping up one dot and spamming 1 spell over and over is incredibly nauseating sometimes.
my friend took the FF tanking mindset to WoW back in Nighthold and he would consistently rip aggro away from his main tank whenever they tankswapped because the other tank was stacking stamina while my friend stacked as much crit and vers I feel like in any game people should look for an offensive mindset now, gone are the days of restrictions for sacrificing dps and mitigation imo
When I started playing MMOs about 20 years ago, playing a healer or tank also meant that you were pretty much unable to solo quest. In one game it took me as a healer about 5 minutes to kill a trash mob, while DPS killed it in about 10 seconds. That mob never came close to killing me though. That kind of design philosophy drove me away from healer and tank roles over time. So it is relief to see these things have changed.
@@Arrow333 a lot of people in mmos (mostly wow) take the defensive mindset to seriously, but FF was a breath of fresh air when they changed the dynamics, and now I'm seeing every MMO (or games for that matter, you even see this in the core design of destiny and pso2) is trying to adapt around the mentality that the FF player base seemed to hone in on
I agree that everything feels like a DPS and I don't consider it a bad thing, just different. However, from some experiences that I have had in PF, the mentality does seem to cause some grief for others when healers/tanks skimp on doing their bare minimum (mitigation/healing). I.E., If there is a stack marker out and people in the stack are sitting at an HP levels where they will die, you hope you don't see glare/broil/malefic being cast, but you sometimes do and generally it results in a dead body. I think this leaves a sour taste for some people with the current playstyle. And I feel like I can't hate on the tanks/healers for trying to play as optimal as possible, but there are GENERALLY more repercussions when they fuck up their optimization compared to a DPS. It's a bit unfair but I guess that's the nature of the roles? I'm curious if SE would like to keep it this way (because it is interesting in my opinion) or if they'll create fights with higher frequency of tank busters/boss autos chunk more and much higher healing checks that might make the unique aspect of the roles more prevalent.
Maybe this is an NA thing, but even since ARR I used to run melee DPS accessories on warrior if I was off-tanking purely so I could maximise dps, and eventually run those accessories as main tank too when my HP was in a comfortable spot. If anything, ShB has merely simplified the barrier to entry in terms of annoying game mechanics like stance dancing.
They can if you have a very good group, in world of Warcraft it’s even worse, the mobs in mythic+ do so much damage that the tank literally needs to run away and kite most of the time to not get one shot, at least in FF you can stand and fight as a tank not run away lmao
And with this video, you've also shown that we still have room for changes. Maybe the DPS meta will be replaced by another one. That we will see in 6.0, or maybe 7.0.
The thing that I hate about this meta is not that I am expected to do DPS a tank or healer, but that they made doing DPS while mitigating damage/healing so easy in comparison to how it was in Stormblood. I miss aggro gen actually being a mechanic that you have to worry about, and I miss having to use mitigation for autos.
As a newer player who just hit shadowbringers I think it makes sense that people focus Dps. As people learn the game and get more and more familiar with content and mechanics Being Able to do it quicker seems like a natural progression. I can't speak for how the game was but I don't mind where it is per se. Once I get familiar with content I definitely prefer going fast but until then I tank one pull at a time first time through a dungeon. I do think when it comes to trials the over emphasis on Dps is kinda lame though. For trials I'd much rather focus on my survivability but Dps based mechanics make that a little more challenging. It doesn't matter if my survivability is good of there is a wipe mechanic and it ends up taking longer if we get more than halfway just to die VS doing it quickly to start. The emphasis on DPS seems like a high risk/high reward thing. More runs=more loot and exp, but obviously you might wipe and end up taking longer. I think it's natural for people to gravitate to high risk and reward systems though.
This is why I stopped playing a healer. I play a healer not to dps. I also don't like tanks as much any more. In every mmo I am a healer or a tank. I have been playing ff14 less and less because of this. I have been playing since 1.0 and it's harder and harder to get motivated to play as much as I used to now.
Well the game literally tells you to dps whenever no one needs healing. FF14 just lets you go wild more. Also you can't level in the overworld without killing something, other than doing fetch quests, and something is going to attack you one way or the other, so you NEED to use offensive spells either way, unless you decide to run. The game wasn't designed around raiding, and any metaslave telling you otherwise is an idiot.
I still think that it’s not just dps that makes a healer or tank good. If the tank does amazing dps but don’t position the boss properly or don’t press your mitigation cooldowns then you’re a bad tank. I see WHM who are on the top of FF logs and I check their healing and they are at 9 grey. Why not just take a dps instead of a healer in that case and just single heal it?
Because sadly what you think isn't what the game think. (Although I agree) if your tank does as much dps as you well...dps and doesn't die despite not really tanking well, then by game standards he did amazing. And healers that never heal and only dps are just dps that want to be more important that just being another dps (because there's a million of them.) I don't hate the system, but I wish it would just get rid of the entire archetype seeing as everyone is basically the same class but some are slightly worse dps..tanks can heal and dps, healers can dps and tank, and dps can tank and heal. There everyone's happy. Everyone can hit buttons all the time.
While I see what you're talking about and agree to a great extent, most encounters are not quite there to enforce the DPS meta. Most encounters by design do not have massive DPS checks anymore, (excluding ultimates afaik as I have not stepped into ultimates personally) as to give you wiggle room for errors and be more accessible. It's even commonly said to not focus too much on DPS during prog as to see more of the encounter before working on optimization. I am all for everyone DPSing, as I like it when things go fast and smooth (;D) while doing content. My biggest gripe with the DPS meta is that healers and all but one tank do not have engaging rotations to suit into the meta. I'm not asking for deep and complex rotations for tanks and healers (that's what the actual DPS roles are for), but we need something more than a raindrop puddle of depth. Spamming Broil 3 or Glare isn't exactly ruffling anyone's jimmies during an encounter.
"The skill cap in FFXIV is NOT mitigating damage, or holding aggro, or keeping people alive. The skill cap is doing that while also maximizing your dps." So tanks have to master dps rotation and maximize damage while tanking, healers have to master dps rotation and maximize damage while healing...and dps have to master dps and maximize damage while...? What extra tank/healer rotations do dps have to fit into their dps rotation? Seems kind of unfair. Why do tanks and healers have to do more than their base job? Don't get me wrong, I play tanks and enjoy the damage boost they gave us, but dps jobs don't have to tank or heal. Sure they do more damage, but that's because their abilities do more damage, not because they're harder to play. You can bet your ass dps would be crying if they were forced to do some healing, mitigation, and threat management, etc., while doing their dps rotations. If tanks and healers are held to a certain dps threshold, then it's only fair that dps should be held to a certain healing or tanking threshold too. I guess dps jobs are for simps?
As someone who has MANY jobs maxed, the skill cap for DPS is optimizing a SIGNIFICANTLY harder rotation. Almost every DPS has a much more complex rotation to maintain while still performing mechanics, and the ones that dont have some other aspect that still keeps things difficult(I.E. BLMs need to know how to manage their movement options so they can keep uptime on a movement unfriendly rotation, DNC has to be able to react to their random damage procs properly, MNK has to know their positionals, etc.) Also, DPS DO have tools outside of damage. Ranged physical have troubadour and its clones, melee physical have feint, and casters have addle, which they are expected to use to help deal with damage hitting the party
@@rukrawczyk Oh no you are NOT trying to act like dpsing is harder than tanking. As someone who also has MANY jobs maxed, dps is NOT harder to play than a tank. I can't speak to healers, I don't play one, but I assume like in every other game, they are difficult too - which explains both job's scarcity in every mmo out there. Everyone still has to perform the same mechanics, tanks, healers, dps, so that's irrelevant. And everyone also has some aspect of their class that's a pain in the ass and makes it difficult or annoying, so that's irrelevant too. Tanks have to "know how to manage their movement and position the boss", "react to random damage procs", etc., too, so once again, irrelevant. And those tools outside of damage are just little tools, they're NOT a extra job/rotation to be maximized. So you addressed none of my points. What if you, as a dps, were expected to help with actual healing and had to hit a certain hps number? Same with aspects of tanking. What if you had to constantly weave in mitigation and threat shirking rotations so you would stay below certain dps and tps thresholds?
@@nikolagoethe7142 well then I must be crazy, because I have tanked in savage raids, and I have DPSed in savage raids. You wanna guess which one I had an easier time with? TANKING!!
To be fair, Tanks and Healers are given simpler rotations compared to DPS jobs. You may not thin rotational complexity is equivalent to difficulty, but many do, and I count myself among them. Since FF is a game of memorization and muscle memory, the time needed to memorize and internalize a rotation should be included in a difficulty. So yeah, DPS abilities do more damage, but they are punished by having to jump through more hoops to get that damage. I will agree that on a casual level DPS tend to have it easy, though, and I wish skills like Curing Waltz actually have a punch to them. I guess they are scared of having healers go without using a GCD heal (or non-lily GCD for WHM), or something.
As a tank player that sometimes flexes to dps, I find all dps have a rotation of atleast similar difficulty to tanks if not harder. Tanks pretty much only have 1-2-3 combos (dark knight's is especially braindead imho, just 123, dont overcap mana/blood, mash ogcds when they come up, save blood for living shadow), you dont have to keep track of anything else. Paladin's is a bit more engaging, with shifting atonement usages for downtime and early reqs to catch another use over the course of the fight but thats where the complexity ends. Also, healers dont have a rotation. Its just "press the single target damage button and keep the dot up" and sprinkle in an ogcd every now and then. The only healer with a comparatively interesting damage output options is AST, where it depends on how much damage you boost on your team with proper card/divination usage
As healer main love it when you say any HP higher than 1 is luxury. But yeah, I prefer a more healing oriented gameplay. Anyway the gameplay now is not that bad, from spamming heal to spamming one button DPS, the same thing is to stay vigilant of mechanics and party health at the same time. Maybe a way to go is to work around MP management, or a combo oriented healing method, as the DPS rotation. But as long as we don't need so much healing, it would stay the same imo.
Its the trope of games now. The only thing that matters is dps, period. Monster hunter world took this turn as well right after behemoth showed up, making playing certain styles like block Lance incredibly hard or downright impossible in late game due to monsters dealing absurd "chunk" damage. Or failing quests that already had time limits by not meeting the dps check 15 times in the fight. And sadly the dps meta is easy for games to fall into because all you ever do in games when you're not doing something specific is doing damage, and it's easy to make a game about doing damage all the tome...but it's not impossible to keep this from happening if the developers don't want this to happen. Make things more difficult...examples are making tanking and healing harder than "hit button and done." A big part of tanking is holding aggro, which is laughably easy now since you just turn on your tank stance and bam...you are now tank. Healers have insane healing capabilities to deal with pretty much any situation except for a party wide Instakill. And the worst offender of all that keep this meta in place is the almighty dps check. Imagine if there was a healer check, sorta like escaton judgment from world where everyone just has to out heal the situation. Granted it's a dps check I know but the attack itself you must outheal. I'm not against everyone needing to dps, but it kinda defeats the purpose of having specified roles if the only difference between the role is one is a dps that heals better than the other dps, one is a dps that can take more damage than the regular dps, and one does more damage than the other two dps. Being one dimensional doesn't have to be boring if you make it challenging enough. But the developers make the game how it's suppose to be played, and if they make the game dps heavy, then dps is what is required.
FF14 has 3 roles: DPS, DPS that also heals, DPS that gets hit.
You forgot the DPS that floor tank
Red DPS, Green DPS, Blue DPS
If they're a floor tank, they're technically not doing any DPS
@@AoyagiMei don't tell the dragoons that
From my experience, red DPS is DPS that gets hit
Yoshi P: "In 5.0 healers will be dedicated healers"
Players: no, I don't think I will
Also Yoshi: haha blood lily goes boom
When you're playing tank and you parse yourself to see how many dps you get ahead of in the damage ladder.
It happens a lot when I do EDEN because we know how to keep more uptime than others
Obviously this is in casual content rather than savage stuff, but I love trying to be top DPS as a healer in dungeon runs
@@pjw1993 hahaha same. whm once u get misery is do broken i love it
@@Ragingwasabi9000 God damn it I love WHM 😁
Ironically, healers who don't want to dps usually tend to be pretty bad at actually healing. If they spend 99% of the time spamming Cure 1 on the tank, then they don't get much practice at how to recover when shit hits the fan and they suddenly need to use their entire toolkit. DPSing as a healer also teaches you how to be proactive and prevent the shit from hitting the fan.
100% agreed. A healer that knows how to DPS is a healer that can keep the team alive while contributing the most.
I once ran into a SCH in the final HW dungeon that only used Physick. As a SCH main, I was so peeved because the job has so many tools. We were going slow, he wasn't learning his job and when I asked to at least put DoTs on the enemies, he started arguing healer DPS is virtually insignificant.
Yeah buddy, tell that to a SCH main who sees himself as a green DPS. The difference in dungeon speed between a healer who knows what they're doing and one who doesn't is quite noticeable.
The best healing is to kill enemy faster.
I accept that every job is a DPS, but I still hate that they removed damage skills from Healers and went "Btw you still need to do damage" and also removing threat management from Tanks.
That's not exactly true though. Its just set up like the DPS are with raid buffs. AST is akin to your DNC/BRD where they have a lot of raid buffs but lower DMG output. SCH is more akin to your DRG/SMN with solid damage and some buffing. And WHM is your SAM/MCH/BLM equivalent, bringing raw potency over raid buffs per se. As for threat management, even in the old days of stance dancing and aggro skills it was not uncommon for me to rip hate off tanks because of bad rotations or gameplay, even with the threat management they had back then. Its now more streamlined so that the average player wont struggle with threat control as much, thus making a more enjoyable experience for your everyday player.
@@rivenansgar2415 The problem isn't with the thematics of each job. It's fine if the numbers and mechanics enforce that, conceptually. No one would argue that. The problem is with the impact these changes had on the healer and tank skill curves. Every healer now has AST's barebones DPS rotation during all points in a fight, with WHM and SCH having none of the busywork that justified that rotation on AST specifically. I'm not saying there isn't WHM or SCH specific concerns for optimization here, but their micromanagement compared to before 'only' focuses on the way they make tradeoffs for 'needing' to heal, whereas AST does have an active portion of their kit dedicated towards DPS, which can function completely independently from their healing thanks to their generous weaving opportunities with Malefic.
As for tanks, the biggest problem, in my opinion, is tank mastery. Old tank stances were fine conceptually. The problem was half of them were stuck on the GCD, broke tank combos, and generally just felt bad to use. Their issues had to do with quality of life, not with their role in each tank's toolkit. Every tank should have copied WAR's two oGCD method, but Square was insistent on it being otherwise. I have no problem with these abilities being treated as the 'core' of tank gameplay. You want good aggro? Pay a Dps tax. You want extra mitigation on demand? Dps tax. The effect of current tank mastery is you always have the old 'tank' stance on, except for the aggro portion. But you also lost most of the heavy aggro generation modifiers on skills that also enabled you to dps while maintaining your lead (something I'd like reintroduced on tank filler combos, not their burst abilities). The other effect of that is it's made healers give zero fucks about tank damage. The result, strangely, is less tactical decision making. Any situation where you'd go "Do we use X cooldowns here to replace tank stance?" is gone, completely. Offtanks in particular start to fall asleep because they don't have any way to funnel their excess mitigation resources into the main tank except when busters are up. What's the point of having Nascient Flash/The Blackest Night/Intervention/Heart of Stone target allies if you don't have active reasons to use them outside of busters? And my static tanks get mad at eachother (instead of at our DPS who never used Diversion in the past) aggro now because it's so easy to just leave tank stance on after the opener that they threaten to trade aggro between their burst windows. And as a DPS I 'STILL' rip aggro off of tanks in roulettes constantly, just not during bosses.
If we're going hone in on 'everyone is a dps' gameplay, I'd much rather have the option to trade between defence or sustain for additional offence as necessary on the roles that care about that as their primary job, which is then supplemented with varied core rotations that don't make those players fall asleep or want to swap roles instead of just jobs. Introducing more of those options are what would make XIV's tank and healer design appeal to both classic tanks and healers as well as our DPS focused ones. They will be exploited fully by those who want to, or used as needed by those who don't.
@@GrimoireM I agree with the healers, dps experience was neutered, specially in regard to SCH who had all these things to play with. 2 button rotation, sucks. Getting energy drain back made me laugh :D
Tank aggro, honestly during raids. The tank never left dps stance from my experience, and if he was in threat stance, they'd probably get a stern talking too. Tank aggro now is easier, but better. The only aggro discussions are between the 2 people dealing with the mechanic, instead of expecting the dps to give a shit. I pull off my co-tank enough times, but it's not hard to weave in the tank stance button if you're catching up in threat. Tank dps wise, nothing has changed, threat stance was only the opener and a crutch that newer players used.
@@FoxiestDuck To me the issue with tank aggro stemmed mostly from poor QoL present in the tank stances themselves, and non-tanks having too much access to aggro reduction or cuts. Tanks should have good snap aggro tools, but if a DPS is going hard properly, the tank should feel some stress from that if they're not doing their rotation properly (and even is somewhat solved by building aggro modifiers into filler abilities apart from those purely used for snap aggro). Most extreme aggro issues can be solved with a tighter gear curve, consistent use of gear caps (Dead on Arrival content like Normal Raids/Alliances/Ex Trials all would benefit from this, but all level cap dungeons should be using it as well. The issue with Tank mastery now is that you're 'always' in tank stance, at least in terms of DPS output.
The reason I want the tradeoff to exist is because I'd like to see the consistent use of stance dancing by tanks as a requirement both for survival and for aggro management in savage, at least while main-tanking. The problem with SE's inability to make that a proper threat stems from their raid design. So rather than try to solve the issue, they pushed it aside so it was no longer a concern, and XIV's depth suffers for it.
@@GrimoireM This was well stated. This is probably the biggest issues that I have with healers and tanks. Tanking is fine now, but it doesn't feel as meaningful. And the issue is that everything, like a lot of mmos these days, is about killing everything as fast as possible. While that's always the most optimal and meta way to play, it just feels so asinine and vapid.
SE: hmm we dont have enough tanks and healers to match with in partyfinder... what to do?
Employee: Lets make everyone a DPS
SE: YOU GET A RAISE!
SE: While we're at it, let's strip as much dps from healers so that it's boring to dps with them!
Dang it I’m a DPS that just heals my life is a lie😔
Question: are crafters/gatherers also DPS? I feel like this is a really important question.
YES!
Gatherers are dps in diadem
Need to maximize your dps(Quality) before enrage (durability)
Yes because you damage the wildlife for your capitalistic gains
Kinda random but some of the botanist hatchets would love as glam warrior
Never gets old popping whm misery on some poor helpless mobs and watching them melt into a puddle of blood and pain. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD LILYS!
no blood no bone no ash !
@@destroyerinazuma96 BLASPHEMY !
When I decided to try my hand at being a healer (SCH in my case) after trying different DPS classes I set out to be the best healer I could be, making sure the party's health was always full and free of bad statuses. Instead, I was pulled aside by one tank and asked politely why I wasn't contributing to the damage output of the party. That's when I realised my DPS days weren't over and that healers had an extra level of responsibility. Over time though, it has let me to feel more engaged in duties and feel I'm making an extra contribution, however I still chuckle sometimes at still being expected to DPS as a healer.
It's a bit of reverse psychology isn't it? Phases designed for everyone to go ham on the boss and then back to their designed roles after is a cycle not a lot of raids even in WoW bring up anymore. Though to be fair the gameplay of FFXIV is different on a fundamental level than WoW so that's like comparing apples to oranges.
Well to be honest it’s only one button than a rotation
This has never happened to me. I Whm pretty much exclusively but on Boss fights I don't DPS aside from Misery and a Dot. The floor spam won't let me cast and if I get caught in any mechanic above a 50 dungeon it will usually delete me because healers defense is so low. This is also why nobody mains Blm in Shb. Can't cast with all the floor spam.
The game isn't so much a DPS as it is a Mobile DPS.
I’ve never heard someone say something so wrong before
This game is designed for everyone to go beast mode now haha
I remember failing the DPS check on Living Liquid's adds over and over again because one of our healers only stood around doing nothing when he didn't have to heal. That same healer cussed at our DPS and tanks for not doing enough damage when we failed killing adds over and over that reached the edge with slivers of health... Yeah, needless to say we never cleared the fight and the group soon split up because of the drama that guy caused. >_
I remember struggling hard on week 2 of doing Living Liquid, managed to do a clear of 1/2 on the first week - though as the ninja in the group without a warrior, it was pretty awful (I wasn't really that good at ninja either)
It's not the dps that directs the meta, it's the uptime and the optimization behind it. So ofc, while we had a few of healing gcd during ARR, the uptime was more about casting healing, like spamming Cure II on main tank, but now, since we have a lot more healing spells, both in ogcd and in gcd, healers can use more of their uptime to cast offensive spells, and this dynamic makes the healing meta way more fun to play actually, since you have two layers of optimization on your uptime : healing optimization and dps optimization.
And about healing, you did a whole case about the fact that Cleric Stance was a wall to the DPS meta on healing, but then, said that Gordias contributed to the current DPS meta on FFXIV... But Cleric Stance has been deleted in the 4.0, not the 3.0, and Gordias was the worst healing meta on the game, because it was all about WHM as a main heal, who had to deal with 80% of the damages, and SCH who had to stay as much as possible on his Cleric Stance. If the healers were more oriented on heals during ARR, it was because of one thing you didnt even talked on your video (and why I think you are kinda out of touch about your subject, atleast about the healers) : Mana management. Back at ARR, it was common to have to makes a choice between dpsing, and keeping mana to manage incoming damages, because you had only one mana management spell for both WHM and SCH, I remenber using mana potions during T13 at the opener, just to be able to use a second one later during the fight, and, more important, since we were struggling with mana, every death on the party was a blow for the healers, and so, it was common too to not dpsing just to be able to raise someone if they dies on a mechanic. Now, mana isnt an issue at all, you dont have to make a choice between using your mana for dping, or using it for healing, you can do both. Someone die? Your RDM or your SMN can raise it. Lack of mana? You can use one of your numerous mana management spell, or even a mana potion if really you are in a difficult situation (and using a mana potion is something that archaic nowadays that most of the healers dont bring mana potion with them before starting a raid).
Man I really miss tank stances, I felt like I was PUMPING numbers and I felt like there was a high skill ceiling and it felt so rewarding to push your damage. I actually had to think about aggro and I had a level of control over if I live or die if a healer goes down. A good tank used to do so much damage you could carry pug savage groups in pf adventures, now I feel like I'm at complete mercy at my dps in the pug. Suddenly everyone and their grandma is parsing 99 cause all jobs in the game are so easy to play now. (rdps is part of this as well, but I feel like the skill ceiling putting high end players and the midcore players apart is completely gone and my damage now fully relies on crit rng and kill time rather than good cooldown usage to stay in dps stance for as much as possible.)
It's almost like fate ordained that I hop back in for a meta tailored to my playstyle. No more spamming Flash as a PLD while looking at Sword Oath as a forbidden fruit, lmao.
sword oath was never a forbidden fruit man, it was the off tank's stance in parties and your go to in solo fights, still a fair point but give it a little more credit than that.
@@sparemobius7430 I wasn't trying to imply that Sword Oath didn't have its uses, I was more talking about using it in 4-mans as a new tank. I wanted that extra damage, but I got flamed for using it because I didn't know the concept of the holy trinity back in the ARR days. Best believe I was always the off tank for 8-mans, though, a Sword Oath sounds a lot cooler than a Shield Oath.
@@LeChibiDrummer it does sound cooler, you could also sneak it in every now and then, but it was sort of hard to hold agro without shield oath, maybe for mobs if your DPS could burst it down fast enough a single flash might be enough, but sword oath really didn't get to be used as much as the only tank in a party, that is very true.
Not sure how it is now, but I guess sword oath for all it's cooler naming really does get the short end of the stick in most scenarios. Gotta say though, the whole spamming flash is why I started to prefer Warrior, might not have been as good back in the day at holding agro, but it was a lot more fun to spam their aoe agro.
@@sparemobius7430 Currently, Sword Oath is a 3-stack buff you get after your melee combo that allows you to use Atonement which grants you mana with each use. It's like DRK's blood weapon, but only for 3 attacks. A bit underwhelming for what the name implies, but Shield Oath isn't even in the game anymore, it's called Iron Will now.
@@LeChibiDrummer so can you use sword oath with the agro still up? Cus that would be nice.
I stopped playing back in the first expansion for reasons and just never got to pick it back up.
Everything hard has an enrage now. In 2.X, I remember bringing 3 tanks to Titan EX because one of them needed to be carried, and it was fine because mechanics looped. No way something like that would fly now.
I remember certain fight where you could bring one healer and it would be fine if everyone knew what to do. I'm not sure if it was unsynced but stuff like that was always fun.
While I do agree every job in this game is a dps, i think it's a bad message for new players. While true, I've scene so many instances where tank players (I notice them more being a tank main myself) know how to deal good damage, but dont know how to tank in the slightest. I've seen a dark knight main who parsed well but was always ot and has never actually tanked. Didnt know what cds were good when and nearly all mana was spent on edges, with a tbn thrown out very occasionally. They judged their skill on fflogs, went into TEA, and got absolutely torn apart. So yeah I do agree that all jobs are there to do a lot of damage alongside their role, but i think for new players and for players picking up a new role, I think it really needs to pushed that people should learn the role first.
Yes!
It's a low %... Most of the new tanks i met in the game got the "i tank, i protect, not dmg" kind of logic, which is a problem reaaaally hard to solve once it's there... you can always blame the team for the lack of dps and trying to prove them wrong is a pain in the squalala... If you die on a tank buster every time as a DRK, party wipes, your fault, easy to point and learn. So i think it's better to learn to dps in a large audience and fix the "use your cds and read your skills" part after...
@@ShirokamiHichino Thing is using your cds efficiently and taking less damage is part of dpsing. As far as raid damage you'll be giving your healers the opportunity to dps more. Using this cooldown to cover these large amounts of autos, that cooldown to cover raid damage. Not to mention the reactionary cds all tanks have. Blackest night, intervention, nascent flash, heart of stone on such a short cooldown. There's also things like boss positioning. There's more to tanking than just me take autos and busters. I'm not saying doing good dps is a bad message, I'm just saying there are other more important things to learn as a tank first as optimizing tank and healer damage wont matter anyway until your hitting higher end content
@@spreadartifact1517 Well, I've never said being efficient with cds or boss positionning wasn't important but it's 50/50 with the DPS aspect of the job... I'm just saying you can find more easily people teaching you how to use cds and not to spin with your boss (even if I agree the "how to efficiently move a boss" part could deserve a full video on its own...).
But learning and changing mentalities about how important it is to consider your DPS also valluable as a tank is a really hard task considering it goes against all other games' mentality. To me, that's why I think it's important to say "tanks are DPS"...
To compare with actualities, it's almost as if "tanks and healers are DPS too" is the "black lives matter" of FFXIV : that doesn't mean they are only DPS... That doesn't mean other lives doesn't matter... That means that "in the mind of many people it's not clear, so we have to say it louder so people find it more and more casual"... Or something like that =D
Edit : to me, it's even more true in lategame but I think it can be important to teach all sides of a job through progress, as I've always done with people I coached...
Spread Artifact That’s basically what this video covers. Optimizing output while maintaining the bare minimum requirements of what’s expected of your role. Which is if you’re tanking, is to maintain mitigations and positioning. All this while maximizing dps uptime. That is where the skill cap lies.
He goes over these points more extensively in his in-depth tank guides. Moreover, I’m sure this video is directed at those who fully grasp the concept of their roles and wish to optimize their gameplay. Which is mainly what this channel is for. UA-cam is saturated with beginner guides for newcomers. There are some like me who already understand the basics and wish to improve their performance in every way possible.
Need to show this vid to a bunch of my old fc mates who refuse to leave the past behind.
I think if Square wants tanks and healers to tank or heal more, they should design encounters that require it. I've been enjoying ultimate because it feels like it's a tier of difficulty that encourages me to use my healing kit in a way I've never needed in savage. Healing spells are extremely strong right now, and you barely need to use more than one to patch up the party after a raidwide. It's kind of crazy how strong they are in comparison to healers in other MMOs, which have to dedicate the majority of their time keeping people alive.
It wouldn't change things. Healers would just cast more healing between damage, and tanks, well... damage doesn't use ANY tanking resources at all so it wouldn't matter.
During the entirety of Stormblood and the majority of Heavensward, tanks were expected to drop their tank stance for most of end game fights. The idea was to only keep your stance for the opener to generate enough enmity. Oh, and also to basically never use your enmity combo except in some openers, depending on the job.
So did Shadowbringers delete tank stances? Well, yes, but actually, no, because they were already being used only as a tool for aggro since Gordias. Sure, one can argue that ShB made it more "casual", but honestly at this point, I'd argue it was more of a quality of life change at that point.
It's because of this meta shift that I don't even bother with savage or most extremes anymore. The only time I actually feel like a classic tank is when I'm doing giant dungeon pulls and might actually die. Everything else just had me playing as a DPS with boring rotations.
There's no additional complexity either, no questions of should I switch back to tank stance to mitigate damage or boost my threat generation for a bit.
They need to add something else to the role, because as it stands right now, it's the easiest thing to do by a country mile and gets boring af once get your easy rotation down.
Maybe that's is why we have so many people playing DPS class and making queues so long.. Healer and tank getting pressure to DPS just make people choose DPS class, it's easier to DPS when you just have to DPS
It’s not even hard to dps while healing. The problem is just most people prefer to just hit the boss and looking cool. It’s a problem in every mmo
@@lynndylan4674 Is not a question of DPS or not DPS while healing, the problem is how you judge the healer and the tank. Rank them by amount of damage? For me doesn't make sense.
I dont think others mmo have sooooo long queues when you are DPS.
Lincoln Borges tank is just a dps with a brain dead rotation
@@LincolnBorgesrp I agree, and that's why using DPS meters is and always have been a violation of ToS. If we got back to a distinct role distinction, with Tanks knowing they are going to hold aggro and absorb damage for the team and Healers knowing they are going to focus on keeping everyone else strong while avoiding taking damage themselves, we'd have more players willing to Tank and Heal. People play DPS now because it's the only single-role role.
Ranger Smith I understand your point of view, the problem I see here is, when I played wow a couple of years ago, I would fall asleep when playing tank or heal in dungeons, it felt like I wasn't helping at all so it was just a few button press from time to time so... I'd take naps between pulls xd
Its so true. As a healer, its sometimes hard for me to let go of the old ways. I truly do wish the healer/tank meta would shift back to a more defensive, GCD healing method. I feel it would make doing higher DPS much more satisfying. But that would require SE adjusting how they design encounters and I don't think that will ever happen.
its, not going to go back to that. This is the way the game evolved
. Either you get on board or get left behind
Sammie Dodge Yes, I know that. Thank you for your undying wisdom.
This is my favorite video so far! It was a really good choice to show how things changed and why were at this dps meta. Keep up the good work
Glad you enjoyed!
The best healing/tanking is to kill enemy faster than they kill you.
Most people who want to keep the old ways, don't even play at a high end game level. Simply because they wont clear dps checks, unless carried and no group wants to carry someone
I think part of the reason why DPS has been pushed to the forefront is that it's the only output in FFXIV that's both analog and, for the most part, self-determined. Healing and holding aggro are roles that more or less have pretty rigid success/fail states for which the parameters are primarily affected by the competency of your team. Back when holding aggro was something that actually mattered, it was only really a massive problem if you either died and had to suffer through the res debuff, or if your team was mismatched (and the DPS didn't know what Diversion was). Similarly, the difficulty of healing is tied directly to how error prone your team is. Are the tanks mitigating corrrectly? Are your DPS using their utility abilities? Is anyone standing in the fire?
DPS, on the other hand, is both innately rewarding (since it gets the encounter done faster) and is mostly self-contained outside of raid buffs. Getting 10% more DPS gets you something tangible, whereas 10% more healing, when people already aren't dying, likely gives you nothing, especially since danger usually comes from heavy burst damage rather than the need to sustained heal. Raising the healing requirements doesn't really change much, besides making things more punishing. People are still going to try to go as close to the line as possible, since there's no reason not to besides safety.
(The main exception to this is in some of the earlier dungeons, where better mitgation/healing = potentially the ability to pull more mobs, but with the current 1-3 mobs before a hard gate design, that's also not really relevant anymore)
I remember them getting rid of the original Cleric Stance and thinking, "oh, cool! Healers don't have any reason not to DPS, then!"
I was so naive.
I honestly WISH we could go back to something a little more complex rather than "see thing, hit thing". Ya its cool to be aggressive and ASSIST in dps but I personally don't believe that maximizing dps should be the MAIN aspect for tanks and healers. Granted, I've only tanked and healed early raids and raids of prior expansions, but the idea of "hit it til it dies" seems almost pretty simple. Yes mechanics add a thin layer of complexity to fights but where did the debuffs and cc go? Where did the SUPPORT from healers go? Where are those clutch moments when the whole party has an insta death spell on em that the healers HAVE to Esuna to remove? It just feels like 14 has been overly simplified. Don't get me wrong, imma still play tf out of it. And even though its one of my favorite MMOs, I still feel like its missing something important to the classes that could add ALOT more complexity and fun to the game.
"Where are those clutch moments when the whole party has an insta death spell on em that the healers HAVE to Esuna to remove?"
Are you, really, playing the game? It's litteraly one of the first mechanic of TEA, which has been released recently... And FFXIV has been not overly simplified, the heck, just watch vids of the ARR raids, all the mechanics looks and are simple as fuck when you see the fights now x)
I only wish that healers had a bit more complexity to their DPS rotations. It gets boring when you are just pressing one button constantly. I think we have enough OGCD heals to keep the party alive so why not have more DPS skills? Maybe even remove some healings skills and reduce the cooldown on others so we have a proper DPS rotation which requires proper skill upkeep while still being able to weave in our heals when needed. Just a thought.
I don't feel like that playing AST. You might have a point with WHM/SCH tho
As a healer main coming in to FF14, this is by far the most fun and skillful design for this archetype. It is so much more fun and interesting watching HP bars and keeping people alive while figuring out how to maximize DPS, than it is to just chill and keep the health bars full.
"Every job is DPS"
That's not a good thing, though. This excessive focus on DPS completely kneecaps the design of the tanks and healers. The process of tanking and healing simply can't be made too complicated, lest you become unable to push your fat deeps at the same time. That's what leads to precisely what we're seeing - tank rotations focused 99.9% on damage rather than mitigation, and healing mechanics that are painfully homogenized and simple.
The only way it's going to change is if SE decides to completely re-design how damage is done in raids. There's simply no reason to be focused on mitigation and healing most of the time since you can pre-plan all your cd's for every single fight. Everything is 100% scripted all the way down to the timing on CD's for used for mitigation and healing so that you always have something up to take on whatever mechanic is coming next. While I would personally like to see more emphasis put on mitigation and threat as well as mitigation through healing, It's simply going to stay the same unless they completely redesign and revamp the way boss damage works.
IMO stormblood was great in that regard. Yes, everyone was a dps, but the entire party participated in damage mitigation and aggro management, astrologians were actually fun to play and so on
To be quite candid I think it would take a massive rework of their entire combat system, not just the raid design.
You do realize that tanks generate threat by doing damage right. In almost every mmorpg tank abilities have a threat modifier with that damage, but you're still supposed to be doing damage, because that's how you generate and hold aggro, doing damage. So of course the rotation is 99% damage based. Even in HW you'd Shield Halone 3 times(if your gear was meh) and then go straight into Sword RA spamming with goring refreshs sprinkled in. If anything the most annoying part about old tanking is sometimes you'd have to swap back to your threat rotation because someone isn't using their enmity reducer, good ridance to threat management. Also the only way to get rid of healers dpsing in downtime is to remove all their dps abilities (which is unreasonable). It's also like this in most mmorpgs.
@@zomgpeoplestolemname IMO the best, most engaging way to handle tanking is something called active mitigation.
What this means is that the amount of damage you can mitigate is directly tied to how well you play - not just in terms of managing CDs correctly, but in how well you're handling your rotation.
At that point, mitigation is the main output of your gameplay, with DPS and threat being side products.
Basically, if you play well, you survive. If you mess up, the boss smashes you to bits.
It's infinitely more exciting and engaging than this pure DPS model.
Well, nowadays people are not have too many patience to play as a tank or a healer. Most of them are only know to DPS, high dmg fast clearing. But, it's sad too see that the role of a tank and healer are now leaning towards DPS style of play..Almost like Aura Kingdom vibe play.
You know I was a tank as a portion of my playthrough... I wasn't that bad... However I did have parties who went gung ho and ran ahead of me... I just sat back watched them die and be like What happened... Did you run ahead of your tank and massively attract enemies when the tank SPECIFICALLY warned you not to do as such
Tank is Frontline Defence (captain)
Dps is Midline Glass Cannon (soldier)
Healer is the Backline (vice Captain)
This is from a progression standpoint
@@AaronWGaming No
Big True. You don't see any tanks that invest in Tenacity Materia, they all go for maximum damage.
Damn that old Xenosys Vex video!!! omg freaking nostalgia. forgot all about that. *the* reason I picked up a WAR alt.
If there’s one thing I don’t like about shadowbringers is that it streamlined healing and tanking this way. I remember picking up my main WHM after the release and realizing that it’s boring now. Like, sure, I do more healing and damage, but I press less buttons.
Out for almost 10 years, love your videos though ❤️
thank you for this video im just starting this game out and it help me dispell the lazy mindset of just doing your job it makes it much more interesting to play!
Glad it helped!
I'm a caster DPS main, no matter if I play AST or RDM. Nice!
This is honestly the better version of the holy trinity IMO. Support roles like tank and healer do support but they still have to push their damage. Look at ARPGs like Monster Hunter or Dark Souls, if you want to play more support-y for your friends, you can totally do that and be effective but you'll still be pumping out some good damage along the way (especially if you play Hunting Horn holy shit those fuckers crush some skulls.)
i disagree and its honestly more boring that way. as a healer in ffxiv, you barely need to heal in savage which doesnt offer the healing intensive mechanics that it needs to fully call yourself a healer, look at whm lmao, whm almost does more dmg than tanks. Healing is mostly always heavily needed in ultimates which I hate. Same with Tank, you barely dont do anything as a tank besides tank swap. You are mostly dpsing like 90% of the time and aggro management is a joke.
@@xKunoz Like I said just my opinion, not eveyone has to share it. I would say though, I really don't care for "aggro management" at least in the way most MMOs handle it. The way games like WoW handles it, or even FFXIV before ShB, it just feels like a nuisance and punishes you for a teammate doing well which doesn't feel good in a cooperative environment. Threat never felt like a difficulty to me, more of a spinning plate that you gave a swipe every now and then to keep it going. So I really appreciate that tank stances dramatically increase enmity now.
cyb201 Yeah, right. Casting Broil 8 thousand times in a row is so much fun.
This is where you’ll tell me they can fix that by giving healers a damage rotation, which I’ll then reply wondering what the point of having a healer is at all if they are merely expected to OGCD heal every now and again while doing mechanics and maximizing DPS like everyone else. Remove damage from bosses altogether except for mechanics and get rid of tanks and healers. It’s functionally no different than where we are going now.
xKunoz I agree with you man. As a newer player, this dps meta is actually turning me off slowly. Not enough variation between roles in an MMO feels weird. Everyone’s job is the same exact thing? I’m exaggerating a bit but you get my point. Even more off putting to me is the amount of fanboyism for this meta and a lot of people defend it to the death like it’s the best thing ever. It’s boring
@@TheSpicyLeg personally i really enjoy casting broil 8000 times because that is not the only thing im doing. its that healing/dps balance we have to guage and how to optimise it that makes it fun. for me healing is hard enough as is so i wouldnt want a full rot for healer. theres enough to keep track of already if ur playing them correctly
You got heals in my dps class!
You got dps in my heals class!
DPS has always been important. I think what has changed is that the game expects players to be *greedy* for that DPS. I haven't watched the guides referenced, since I heal, but Aggressive is a good word for it. In Stormblood, things began to change so that it is easier to be greedy on healers and tanks. Since this game is focused on memorization and muscle memory, greedy play then became the best play. After all wiping isn't that much of a punishment if it meant better play in the future.
It's why proponents of more careful play either desire more RNG in the fights, or more punishment for dying/wiping. While the former might be possible, the casual nature of the game means the latter won't happen - since the only thing that players really are afraid of... is wasting time.
What's funny is that the general philosophy of losing or dying in a game, MMOs especially, was wasted time and effort with only learning from failure being the only positive. If you take away any meaningful punishment, (imagine if they removed lockouts and time gated stuff) then everyone would become apathetic towards it.
I think that's why the souls games were so interesting. It took that punishment and made you feel it. All of your souls gone, time wasted, because you didn't take the actual time to be careful. And you learned from it.
@@Zayindjejfj The perfect comparison to this would be that dark souls is the opposite to bloodborne, because dark souls is very defensive and calculated, while bloodborne of very sporadic and engaging. Despite that last part many people have gone on record of saying that bloodborne is rather dull after you figure out that all you have to do is pump up your hp and damage, then spam every mob or boss away. Ff14 would do well with some randomness thrown into its dungeon, making it much harder to pre-plan everything, or even just have muscle memory of the entire raid. This is what invasions did for dark souls...it made areas that one could normally run through without trouble solo into a menagerie of confusion, pain, and a loss of progress and this "time". At the end of the day it isn't about time, it's about ease...it's too easy to tank and heal, it's too easy to do certain raids and dungeons once you know how to do them which makes wasting time seem important. There's nothing mixing it up, and the devs aren't helping the situation by making it easier to tank and heal, thus incentivize players to dps all the time.
Unfortunately that’s why I quit the game despite its great story and aesthetics. I play tank and healer to tank and heal, not to be a dps. I much prefer ESO style of tanking and healing and providing supports by buffing and debuffing.
Great content, keep it up
Appreciate it!
Before this video I’ve never seen another content creator really talk about this topic. But I’ve always strived to be top DPS no matter what role or class I’m playing to show myself that it’s possible to push to be better. I don’t tell randoms about their shortcomings but for my friends I play with, it helps them set a benchmark for where they need to be
All jobs have dps in their role. Not all jobs have that as the single most important part of their role. Know this and know how to play roles. Great wisdom from ancient times.
I agree. When I explain to people who are just joining there are 3 types of classes. DPS, DPS with less health, and DPS with cleric stance... wait
This is why as a Scholar main I call myself a Combat Medic, not a healer.
As a DRK and GNB main pumping out damage and mitigating damage to the max is such a rewarding feeling. When the whole party humming along at max effort is the best feeling ever. The raid slash boss fight feels like a symphony. The coordinated movements without communicating is the best.
all I have to say is god I miss stance dancing and cleric stance. just those 2 things being removed made it impossible to tell the difference between a truly good player and a player that just knows were to stand and when to move.
Excellent video! Keep up the great content!
P.S. Weebs in.
Yes
Thanks, friend :)
It's like people forgot the main objective of 99% of all encounters is to make the boss's health go from 100% to 0. Whatever class your playing doesn't change that objective in the slightest.
That's a rough way of looking at it, but you are nonetheless correct. But that's also like looking at sex and thinking the only good part is the climax at the end. While it's definitely awesome, all the stuff that happened before that was great too. And everyone likes different stuff, not everyone wants missionary...maybe someone wouldn't mind if a few fingers went on a journey where the sun don't shine (this is a joke I don't want fingers in my ass). Not everyone wants to be a dps all the time...which is what the game basically requires of you, despite the big giant blemish on the games face of having class archetypes. While the raid is only complete once the boss is dead, which is everyone's job, your healer should make sure the tank stays alive so that the dps can well...dps and not eat attacks. And the problem with this is that two of these job types are too easy to do now. Tanking is literally turn on tank stance bam you are now tank, and healers have way too many abilities to deal with every problem that isn't being dead. The dps heavy meta the game has isn't bad, but it's definitely confusing. To be called a tank, and told my role, and even the tank tutorial in game reinforces what you would expect of being a tank, and then the games like "lul you're a dps with a lot of hp." But to reiterate, you're still correct...so yeah.
Tanks always melded str and crit/det in 2.0 etc. Now it’s crit det and skill speed to get a short enough gcd to fit all your abilities within your burst window. I love how you added Xenosys’ video in here. That’s when I was learning warrior in scob and never never looked back. Another piece of sold content my guy. I miss tf outta shb and are warrior. Swapping from defiance to deliverance after pulling a huge mob and gaining a comfy aggro lead and then just melting everything with cleaves and decimates. Swapping back to heal myself with steel cyclone if needed.
As a new player who started a month ago and decided to go Scholar and has up to Stormblood postgame stuff I am glad they made it like this, being pure healer is nice and all but being able to put that extra dps makes it even more fun and challenging
Not that i disagree with you, but i think that is the "evolution" of every rpg that uses the holy triad of tank/heal/dps
In a certain way, having your specific job of mitigating or healing is appealing and should be the focus of your class, being able to deal high damage without playing a dps job is a plus to some people (like myself), Square just simplified this system to a whole new level in ShB, bringing it closer to wow's tanking, where u basically dps and move the boss while keeping mitigation up and using defensives to reduce damage from busters.
I think i kind of repeated some thinks you said in your video, but i don't think this meta is bad, this is just what happens with triad's mmos, the more people try to optmize fights, the more dps becomes important, while only using minimal healing and mitigation.
Sorry for the bad or confusing english.
Love your videos and guides. :D
Honestly as a healer main I have had this issue for awhile. In fact the better I got at the game and the more I did savage content the more I realised that I was just another dps but with a 2 button rotation. It really killed the game for me for a long time since I've always idolized the stereotypical healer. One doing everything in her power to keep her team alive and safe. I've never wanted to dps but as this video rightly points out, there is no reason not to dps. Even in Ultimate level content you still have healers that can solo heal the fight and still have plenty of time to put out more damage. It has made me consider just switching to a dps main so many times I can't even count them. Don't get me wrong I still love the game but the fights just feel like mindless chores when you're stood spamming glare, broil or malefic and the role I did actually sign up for (healing) is the one thing I'm NOT doing.
That's because every class that isn't classified as a dps is a special dps..healers are a discount dps that can heal (despite the fact most classes seem to have some form of self healing, especially tanks). Tanks are discount dps that can survive getting hit thanks to their special abilities that reduce their damage, and are easy to play now that managing aggro is as easy as turn on tank stance and now you are tank. And dps are the best, which is why they are the majority of the three archetypes. A huge problem with this "class role party" gameplay is everyone is delving into everyone else's territory too much....why can tanks be self sustaining? Why do dps have damage mitigation abilities, why does everyone have damage increasing buff/skills. I played a game called seven knights years ago, and the game recently had to be completely overhauled front the ground up because despite the devs best efforts every party in the game was 5 dps characters....no tanks, no healers, no buff classes. Just dps, which made the game one dimensional, and every arena champion was the same team of characters for like 3 years straight. And the reason this was the case is because there were characters that could do ludicrously high damage...and heal.........and mitigate damage....and buff themselves. People constantly say they love the system because it gives them more stuff to do, well if uptime was all you wanted then making healing more than big heal done would also satisfy that desire, same for tanking. Sorry for the long comment.
Honestly I think it's fine. It reminds a me of how I'd build my parties in the older final fantasy games. This also is makes sure healer don't get bored, and the encounters are designed around "Healers have to be healing"
what I really think they didn't need to ruin was the enmity system - keeping aggro as a tank is such a non-issue nowadays, you can virtually grab any add with one damage skill. i'm fine with them getting rid of attacks specifically related to enmity but I feel that's a layer of complexity that didn't get in the way of DPSing and didn't need to get axed.
problem is raid bosses never put out enough outgoing damage to require intense healing, and tanks are usually very self sufficient with all the defensives they have, so if you are doing your job right no one should ever be in danger of dying so all thats left is to hit dps buttons, also in today's content you either do the mech right or you die so the benefits of being a pure healer is diminished, if everyone is doing there job 100% perfectly all thats left for you to do is spam holy (or whatever you healers do lol)
the only addendum I would add to this video would be that in ARR through HW sch was just a green dps to most higher tier sch players. especially since ast wasn't balanced right until towards the end of hw so it was rare to see. between your fairy snapshotting stats on summon and lustrate being a % based heal rather than potency based you could effectively fully buff mind, summon eos, hit clerics stance and then never turn it off outside of a few mechanics if your groups white mage didn't care about dpsing. maybe it wasn't as common back then but I definitely knew people who played that way in ARR including myself when things started to get optimized in the groups I joined.
I agree with the videos but I'd suggest the first priority to be what only your job can do. I've seen so many wipes because the tanks don't mitigate TB, healers only glaring/broiling/maleficing that the party wiped to raidwide. I hate when I get co-healer like that. I don't want to spend Plenary + x2 rapture + medica 2 to top everyone up before raidwide while my co-healer just dps away.
Carpenter is just Decorations Per Second
I do love the new system, despite it blurring the lines between the roles now. It streamlines the gameplay for new players without being too intimidating, while still leaving room to improve for people who concern themselves with maximizing their damage.
@@RavenL1337 You're measuring your damage to how long you have until this boss enrages, the duty timer runs out, or you lose the war of attrition as the boss has infinite resources. Us players don't. It's a regressive mentality to find fault in a method just because it demands more effort from you. Even a healer who stands there eyeing a butterfly will still end up letting players due as they aren't being proactive and constantly casting the most helpful spell at that time. They react _after_ the damage has been done and get overwhelmed as they blow resources playing catch up to the fight in question. Similarly for a tank who's just mashing Rampart and not thinking ahead to the best next cooldown or remembering that the faster an enemy dies, the less chances and time they have to kill you.
@@RavenL1337 belaive it or not, your DPS is measure how good are you at healing (if you don't let anybody die)
Welcome to the New Coke of MMO design.
Also, healers had to meld Accuracy for raid content until Stormblood, which is useless for healing. IIRC in ARR missing an energy drain meant you didn't get the mana gain either.
While I agree that XIV is probably one of the games where doing DMG on non DPS is more common, I still can't agree with most of the points that are made in the video.
Regarding ARR and cleric stance you make it seem like cleric stance was only used by a small amount of people because you might activate it at the wrong time, leading to someone's death. This might be true but the issue we have is that DMG is always 100% scripted. Cleric stance loses it's risk value after the first few clears, because there's no real variation to the damage pattern in the fight.
WoW manages this by dealing random instances of damage that must be healed.
Tanks honestly got the one thing that made them unique from DPS classes stripped away from them. While Emnity management wasn't hard for most people, it certainly still was an aspect that you had to pay attention to. Sometimes holding aggro was even pretty hard (O8S Godkefka especially at the start). Now they just ruined the Emnity system, completely destroying its purpose for the sake of making it easy.
DPS is always the endgame in MMOs. Most instances of damage are scripted and DPS is the only value that can be optimized. HP has a maximum value, DPS can be farmed to the simulated limit.
Honestly with this meta tanking may have lost it's defense focused playstyle, but I do feel like the skill of playing Healer and Tank has been shifted and expressed in different ways now. Due to the DPS-meta mindset, I honestly believe that it's easier to see good healers and tanks than ever before.
For healers, the name of the game isn't "keep" everyone topped off as a healer. It's now more a "How much damage can the team take before I need to heal them" mindset where you're trying to push as much damage casts as you can before actually having to heal. oGCD's become extremely important to manage, and positioning properly for mechanics a must. Add in timing properly mitigation to mitigate as much raidwide damage as possible so you can keep casting, and Healer's have much more to show off their skill than just a simple "I can keep everyone alive". It's a "I can keep everyone alive, deal damage, and still mitigate stuff"
For tanks, the skill needed to do tanking properly is something I really can't understate. As a tank, mitigating damage isn't that hard anymore, as you almost always have something to use, but for bosses that move like E8S, positioning the boss, driving them to the right spot for your party to keep uptime, and mitigating damage not just for yourself, but properly timing Reprisal and party buffs like Shake it Off or Heart of Light with your healers and ranged DPS, all while maintaining your rotation perfectly is where the real skill for a tank comes in now.
They know their market is the more special brand of mmorpg player and putting a pure support class in would cause too much frustration. Guess it is kinda nice knowing we have a short bus for mmorpgs.
1.) The game specifically tells Healers to DPS when it's not necessary to heal
2.) The game specifically tells DPS to attack enemies that attack the healer, probably so the healer can DPS the mob while not taking any damage (you know, what DPSing usually is).
3.) The meta does not apply in 99% of the cases, unless it's savage content. Sure, other clases are expected to do damage too, BUT in 99% of cases I witnessed it goes like this:
- Tank draws the heat from the mob/boss and starts killing.
- DPS pick off any enemy that hasn't been killed by the tank yet and also make sure the party doesn't get overwhelmed.
- Healsers keep everyone alive while also dealing damage when no one is close to dying.
- Everyone has buffs and debuffs they need to keep up.
4.) The game is not just Raids. Also, meta is irrelevant when not aiming for the top, and even then others who don't chase numbers can outshine them in any and every aspect.
5.) You literally can't level if you don't kill. You can and wil be attacked. Which is why healers need offensive spells in the first place.
6.) The game still upholds the basic roles, bujt just let's you go more wild. That's it.
Seeing this as the reason why it is like it is kinda hurts. I hope they return to not everyone being DPS' in some future expansion, tho i dont have much faith in that happening since the way it's now seems to get into every game right now :(
Here's my problem with it from the viewpoint of a newer player: The rotations are boring as *FUCK*
I know that, as I am new, I might be missing something. But if you're going to design the game so that everyone is basically DPS, then why are the rotations for Tanks and Healers so sleep inducing? The only one that doesn't bore the shit out of me is Gunbreaker. It just seems backwards to me.
I do not have a problem with a DPS meta, but at least give Tanks and Healers some more fun DPS buttons to push.
Just my 2 Gil.
What level are you at my guy? Things get better the closer you get to 80. They had to remove/combine a lot of the skills you got before in order to make the rotations not so big or complex for 80s.
@@kadian299 All my Tanks are 60-66. Good to hear they're more involved at 80. So far I just pull a whole bunch of crap and spam my 3 AoE buttons and press buttons that make me not die.
I have everything at 80. While yes Healer DPS "rotations" are literally spamming one button, while keeping your DoT up, you have to be hyper aware of everyone around you at all times. And Tank DPS rotations aren't boring at all. Not as complex as proper DPS, but I refuse to believe someone can look at GNB's rotation and think its boring when compared to a proper DPS
@@Evnyofdeath I mean, I did single out GNB. Its also my favourite Tank at the moment thanks to that(FFVIII helps too :P)
@@Vyomesh839 nah it's still like that at 80. I'd say the dps aoe rotations aren't much more involved then that too though. Healers dps variety is boring af though for sure. I think with tanks having to use a defense rotation all the time makes up for it's slightly less complex dps rotation
Played a lot of mobas so these ideas aren’t odd to me. If anything I like it more because it gives me something to do when no one needs heals
I belive even in a world where Gordias never happened the dps meta was still inevitable to happen sooner or later. When skill and knowledge on the game kept growing people would have started to push for more efficient play. Gordias just made it happen earlier than it otherwise would.
Healers just healing would be boring since you have so many tools to top up allies (atleast as a white mage).
Making healers forced to also deal damage makes raiding more complex and forcing you to multitask and pay attention to every mechanic (positioning, raid wide damage, denying tank busters) as well as pushing your personal dps with PoM at the beginning of the fight and finding that 12 second lull where you can focus at dps while everyone is still alive and in the fight.
hi lynx i always enjoy your content , i wonder if u could make like a video of lets say a warrior gameplay on savage and u talking about what cooldowns to use , when to use your burst combo etc etc . i know i can always look up fflogs but its always nice to actually see it and your thoughts if u get what i mean . keep up the good work lynx !
I plan on doing a savage commentary for the next TWL
Next xpac will be interesting to see what direction new skills take the tank and healer jobs in. Will there be more dps buttons for them, or more healing/mitigation...or perhaps a combo of the two?
As a vet of other MMOs where tank dps was practically non-existent, I rather enjoy being able to beat the hell out of things as a tank in XIV
During the first raid tier of ARR warriors had no choice but to play as dps on nearly every fight. Hell even selling Titan HM runs was all about the Warrior dealing the dps the guy getting carried wasnt.
Remember accuracy? Pepperidge farm remebers.
Wasn't Gordias' also heavily gear gated? The first group that cleared had a truly optimal run, and faiiled; but one more week of ilvl210 gear and they were able to pass the check. From what I remember anyway.
Iirc Gordias was designed to be a completed by farming gear from it. So that you'd complete A3 and A4 after a few weeks of hearing up in A1 and A2. This either wasn't communicated very well, if at all, or the community hated that idea and chose to brute force their way through by minimizing time in tank stance and maximizing time in Cleric Stance to maximize the raid's total DPS output to accommodate for the lack of needed gear. Tanks would switch to melee DPS accessories and it wouldn't be until 3.2 that they made tank accessories "viable" for tanking again.
Gordias was a giant mess that destroyed the raiding scene and permanently changed the game's meta (for better or worse).
Gordias was cleared week 1 on KR servers proving it wasn't gear gated.
@@osuBlaziken I never heard about the KN servers clear; I know the CN servers cleared week 1, but they had 6 weeks of prep for savage instead of 2. Their version also was tweaked so the dps checks were easier compared to the version NA/EU/JP got in 3.0. While still amazing to do. Their version wasn't as 'hard' as our version. Again I have no info about the Korean server
The only thing I want is for healers to at least get a dps rotation that is involved as the Tank jobs. Keeping up one dot and spamming 1 spell over and over is incredibly nauseating sometimes.
Tank DPS rotations really aren't that involved either hahaha. I Missed HW tanking.... sigh....
my friend took the FF tanking mindset to WoW back in Nighthold and he would consistently rip aggro away from his main tank whenever they tankswapped because the other tank was stacking stamina while my friend stacked as much crit and vers
I feel like in any game people should look for an offensive mindset now, gone are the days of restrictions for sacrificing dps and mitigation imo
I imagine it's also a thing of "if everyone can push out as much damage as possible, you can make the run faster"
@@AbyssArray they were telling him to stop using gcds because of it lmao
When I started playing MMOs about 20 years ago, playing a healer or tank also meant that you were pretty much unable to solo quest. In one game it took me as a healer about 5 minutes to kill a trash mob, while DPS killed it in about 10 seconds. That mob never came close to killing me though.
That kind of design philosophy drove me away from healer and tank roles over time. So it is relief to see these things have changed.
@@Arrow333 a lot of people in mmos (mostly wow) take the defensive mindset to seriously, but FF was a breath of fresh air when they changed the dynamics, and now I'm seeing every MMO (or games for that matter, you even see this in the core design of destiny and pso2) is trying to adapt around the mentality that the FF player base seemed to hone in on
My bigger priority is to heal! .......... while Dia has the longest uptime.....
I agree that everything feels like a DPS and I don't consider it a bad thing, just different.
However, from some experiences that I have had in PF, the mentality does seem to cause some grief for others when healers/tanks skimp on doing their bare minimum (mitigation/healing). I.E., If there is a stack marker out and people in the stack are sitting at an HP levels where they will die, you hope you don't see glare/broil/malefic being cast, but you sometimes do and generally it results in a dead body. I think this leaves a sour taste for some people with the current playstyle.
And I feel like I can't hate on the tanks/healers for trying to play as optimal as possible, but there are GENERALLY more repercussions when they fuck up their optimization compared to a DPS. It's a bit unfair but I guess that's the nature of the roles?
I'm curious if SE would like to keep it this way (because it is interesting in my opinion) or if they'll create fights with higher frequency of tank busters/boss autos chunk more and much higher healing checks that might make the unique aspect of the roles more prevalent.
Maybe this is an NA thing, but even since ARR I used to run melee DPS accessories on warrior if I was off-tanking purely so I could maximise dps, and eventually run those accessories as main tank too when my HP was in a comfortable spot. If anything, ShB has merely simplified the barrier to entry in terms of annoying game mechanics like stance dancing.
I don't think its necessarily a bad thing, even though I'd love to relax a bit and just focus on healing once in a while
imagine if tank were tank. in a dungeon they could take 4 to 5 group of mob instead of the usual 2 to 3 which would speed thing up by a lot.
They can if you have a very good group, in world of Warcraft it’s even worse, the mobs in mythic+ do so much damage that the tank literally needs to run away and kite most of the time to not get one shot, at least in FF you can stand and fight as a tank not run away lmao
@@FullMetalEdits wow XD
And with this video, you've also shown that we still have room for changes. Maybe the DPS meta will be replaced by another one. That we will see in 6.0, or maybe 7.0.
Combo style damage mitigation maybe?
Maybe. I honestly have no idea what they could change while not using old play styles. But we'll see.
healer meta
The thing that I hate about this meta is not that I am expected to do DPS a tank or healer, but that they made doing DPS while mitigating damage/healing so easy in comparison to how it was in Stormblood. I miss aggro gen actually being a mechanic that you have to worry about, and I miss having to use mitigation for autos.
Have you even cleared E8S scrub?
As a newer player who just hit shadowbringers I think it makes sense that people focus Dps. As people learn the game and get more and more familiar with content and mechanics Being Able to do it quicker seems like a natural progression. I can't speak for how the game was but I don't mind where it is per se.
Once I get familiar with content I definitely prefer going fast but until then I tank one pull at a time first time through a dungeon.
I do think when it comes to trials the over emphasis on Dps is kinda lame though. For trials I'd much rather focus on my survivability but Dps based mechanics make that a little more challenging. It doesn't matter if my survivability is good of there is a wipe mechanic and it ends up taking longer if we get more than halfway just to die VS doing it quickly to start.
The emphasis on DPS seems like a high risk/high reward thing. More runs=more loot and exp, but obviously you might wipe and end up taking longer.
I think it's natural for people to gravitate to high risk and reward systems though.
Better watch out. In 6.0, Yoshi-P gonna be taking away all of the Healer's attack abilities.
This is why I stopped playing a healer. I play a healer not to dps. I also don't like tanks as much any more. In every mmo I am a healer or a tank. I have been playing ff14 less and less because of this.
I have been playing since 1.0 and it's harder and harder to get motivated to play as much as I used to now.
Well the game literally tells you to dps whenever no one needs healing.
FF14 just lets you go wild more.
Also you can't level in the overworld without killing something, other than doing fetch quests, and something is going to attack you one way or the other, so you NEED to use offensive spells either way, unless you decide to run.
The game wasn't designed around raiding, and any metaslave telling you otherwise is an idiot.
I still think that it’s not just dps that makes a healer or tank good. If the tank does amazing dps but don’t position the boss properly or don’t press your mitigation cooldowns then you’re a bad tank.
I see WHM who are on the top of FF logs and I check their healing and they are at 9 grey. Why not just take a dps instead of a healer in that case and just single heal it?
Because sadly what you think isn't what the game think. (Although I agree) if your tank does as much dps as you well...dps and doesn't die despite not really tanking well, then by game standards he did amazing. And healers that never heal and only dps are just dps that want to be more important that just being another dps (because there's a million of them.) I don't hate the system, but I wish it would just get rid of the entire archetype seeing as everyone is basically the same class but some are slightly worse dps..tanks can heal and dps, healers can dps and tank, and dps can tank and heal. There everyone's happy. Everyone can hit buttons all the time.
While I see what you're talking about and agree to a great extent, most encounters are not quite there to enforce the DPS meta. Most encounters by design do not have massive DPS checks anymore, (excluding ultimates afaik as I have not stepped into ultimates personally) as to give you wiggle room for errors and be more accessible. It's even commonly said to not focus too much on DPS during prog as to see more of the encounter before working on optimization.
I am all for everyone DPSing, as I like it when things go fast and smooth (;D) while doing content. My biggest gripe with the DPS meta is that healers and all but one tank do not have engaging rotations to suit into the meta. I'm not asking for deep and complex rotations for tanks and healers (that's what the actual DPS roles are for), but we need something more than a raindrop puddle of depth. Spamming Broil 3 or Glare isn't exactly ruffling anyone's jimmies during an encounter.
"The skill cap in FFXIV is NOT mitigating damage, or holding aggro, or keeping people alive. The skill cap is doing that while also maximizing your dps."
So tanks have to master dps rotation and maximize damage while tanking, healers have to master dps rotation and maximize damage while healing...and dps have to master dps and maximize damage while...? What extra tank/healer rotations do dps have to fit into their dps rotation? Seems kind of unfair. Why do tanks and healers have to do more than their base job? Don't get me wrong, I play tanks and enjoy the damage boost they gave us, but dps jobs don't have to tank or heal. Sure they do more damage, but that's because their abilities do more damage, not because they're harder to play. You can bet your ass dps would be crying if they were forced to do some healing, mitigation, and threat management, etc., while doing their dps rotations. If tanks and healers are held to a certain dps threshold, then it's only fair that dps should be held to a certain healing or tanking threshold too. I guess dps jobs are for simps?
As someone who has MANY jobs maxed, the skill cap for DPS is optimizing a SIGNIFICANTLY harder rotation. Almost every DPS has a much more complex rotation to maintain while still performing mechanics, and the ones that dont have some other aspect that still keeps things difficult(I.E. BLMs need to know how to manage their movement options so they can keep uptime on a movement unfriendly rotation, DNC has to be able to react to their random damage procs properly, MNK has to know their positionals, etc.)
Also, DPS DO have tools outside of damage. Ranged physical have troubadour and its clones, melee physical have feint, and casters have addle, which they are expected to use to help deal with damage hitting the party
@@rukrawczyk Oh no you are NOT trying to act like dpsing is harder than tanking. As someone who also has MANY jobs maxed, dps is NOT harder to play than a tank. I can't speak to healers, I don't play one, but I assume like in every other game, they are difficult too - which explains both job's scarcity in every mmo out there. Everyone still has to perform the same mechanics, tanks, healers, dps, so that's irrelevant. And everyone also has some aspect of their class that's a pain in the ass and makes it difficult or annoying, so that's irrelevant too. Tanks have to "know how to manage their movement and position the boss", "react to random damage procs", etc., too, so once again, irrelevant. And those tools outside of damage are just little tools, they're NOT a extra job/rotation to be maximized. So you addressed none of my points. What if you, as a dps, were expected to help with actual healing and had to hit a certain hps number? Same with aspects of tanking. What if you had to constantly weave in mitigation and threat shirking rotations so you would stay below certain dps and tps thresholds?
@@nikolagoethe7142 well then I must be crazy, because I have tanked in savage raids, and I have DPSed in savage raids. You wanna guess which one I had an easier time with?
TANKING!!
To be fair, Tanks and Healers are given simpler rotations compared to DPS jobs. You may not thin rotational complexity is equivalent to difficulty, but many do, and I count myself among them. Since FF is a game of memorization and muscle memory, the time needed to memorize and internalize a rotation should be included in a difficulty. So yeah, DPS abilities do more damage, but they are punished by having to jump through more hoops to get that damage.
I will agree that on a casual level DPS tend to have it easy, though, and I wish skills like Curing Waltz actually have a punch to them. I guess they are scared of having healers go without using a GCD heal (or non-lily GCD for WHM), or something.
As a tank player that sometimes flexes to dps, I find all dps have a rotation of atleast similar difficulty to tanks if not harder. Tanks pretty much only have 1-2-3 combos (dark knight's is especially braindead imho, just 123, dont overcap mana/blood, mash ogcds when they come up, save blood for living shadow), you dont have to keep track of anything else. Paladin's is a bit more engaging, with shifting atonement usages for downtime and early reqs to catch another use over the course of the fight but thats where the complexity ends. Also, healers dont have a rotation. Its just "press the single target damage button and keep the dot up" and sprinkle in an ogcd every now and then. The only healer with a comparatively interesting damage output options is AST, where it depends on how much damage you boost on your team with proper card/divination usage
If there is nothing to heal you do damage instead of being afk.
As healer main love it when you say any HP higher than 1 is luxury.
But yeah, I prefer a more healing oriented gameplay. Anyway the gameplay now is not that bad, from spamming heal to spamming one button DPS, the same thing is to stay vigilant of mechanics and party health at the same time. Maybe a way to go is to work around MP management, or a combo oriented healing method, as the DPS rotation.
But as long as we don't need so much healing, it would stay the same imo.
Wait at 3:35 the white mage, Knockout IS MY FRIEND and we aren’t in the same fc anymore and I miss seeing him 🥺
Small world :o
Can I have link or picture of thumbnail?
Its the trope of games now. The only thing that matters is dps, period. Monster hunter world took this turn as well right after behemoth showed up, making playing certain styles like block Lance incredibly hard or downright impossible in late game due to monsters dealing absurd "chunk" damage. Or failing quests that already had time limits by not meeting the dps check 15 times in the fight. And sadly the dps meta is easy for games to fall into because all you ever do in games when you're not doing something specific is doing damage, and it's easy to make a game about doing damage all the tome...but it's not impossible to keep this from happening if the developers don't want this to happen. Make things more difficult...examples are making tanking and healing harder than "hit button and done." A big part of tanking is holding aggro, which is laughably easy now since you just turn on your tank stance and bam...you are now tank. Healers have insane healing capabilities to deal with pretty much any situation except for a party wide Instakill. And the worst offender of all that keep this meta in place is the almighty dps check. Imagine if there was a healer check, sorta like escaton judgment from world where everyone just has to out heal the situation. Granted it's a dps check I know but the attack itself you must outheal. I'm not against everyone needing to dps, but it kinda defeats the purpose of having specified roles if the only difference between the role is one is a dps that heals better than the other dps, one is a dps that can take more damage than the regular dps, and one does more damage than the other two dps.
Being one dimensional doesn't have to be boring if you make it challenging enough. But the developers make the game how it's suppose to be played, and if they make the game dps heavy, then dps is what is required.