Transcending time isn't irrelevant speed. Irrelevant speed is being so fast that you Transcend the concept of speed that you're no longer bound by any spatial and/or temporal dimensions. Like you said most fiction protrays time as the 4th dimension so by that logic Transcending time would be 5D.
My thought process is that a 4D being would be able to move through time, the same way you would be able to with Immeasurable speed. So being above time would put you at Irrelevant speed. Tho, I do suppose my logic has flaws, considering there are levels of immeasurable speed. For example, Goku only being able to force himself less than a second into the future, whereas Superman or the Flash can travel back years with their speed.
@Unremarkable6969 Goku can have another Irrelevant speed scale. If you believe that Zeno has conceptual erasure due to him erasing Future Trunks timeline, it caused the very timering that was representing it to not exist. Then Zeno would have erased the concept of the timeline itself, and Goku moving in that void with Zeno would grant them Irrelevant speed. But that is if you belive that string of though.
By the way...universe 7 isn't just infinite of 1500 something infinities... it has a realm unbounded by space and time and Metaphisical if we go by the guide books...aka the afterlife is the realm Im talking about and it isouterversal
I really wish Death Battle would announce which version of the character they use for these. Take for instance your part of the video about speed, most of Superman consistent immeasurable speeds come from the Golden Age Era of Comics, which is not current Superman, while that would be fine if it is a composite Superman, I would assume Goku is also a composite Goku, which you have him moving in time stop via both Supreme Kais of Time in Heroes, yet it isnt mentioned at all
@Gamer_Lizard_68 They did ? I am blind then. But yet they mentioned Dragon Ball Legends and didnt really use anything for heroes, which show things above Super. Or even Xenoverse. So are they not being specific or just nitpicking ?
3:40 As a Dragonball fan I want to believe this is true. However, Grand Priest out right said he put Space and Time in the World of Void before the Tournament. There are still other ways to get Goku there though.
This episode of db got me back into db. Its also my favourite episode, the fight is amazing, the animation is really good and holy crap the song to go with the fight is the one of if not the best along with the ending is very wholesome and shows the a mutal respect to both characters and the respect both Goku and superman would have for eachother
One thing we can all agree is that is one of the best death battles. It actually has the right winner given the feats, even if a bit of them are wonky, and the animation and music are amazing. This is the best death battle episode I've ever seen, because of everything. And that ending man... cheifs kiss
Main issue is how they tried to say all Superman and feats are cannon and treat every single version as the same person when that’s far from true. Same thing with Goku, the manga and anime are completely different with different feats.
Rebirth merged all previous versions of every character into one composite version and every writer for D.C. and D.C. higher ups themselves have stated that everything is cannon. Hecate literally allows different and contradictory versions to exist within the Dreaming for her own entertainment and so that nothing can challenge her. Not even the Trans.
I think we can all agree at least Goku and Superman would be friends like they are in this Death Battle and I think its obvious that they had a universe made for them so they could fight all out because neither of them would risk the earth.
@@Unremarkable6969 views are fine it is when you make it that draws the most views for the content because the heat is gone and the algorithm looks for something else
Honestly, they did Dragon Ball Heroes dirty. I mean, Fu, of all people in the Dragon Ball universe, created the scenario where they claim he was defeated. His plan was to remake the entire universe in his own image! Seriously, it feels like they’ve been watching too much DC or something. Yep they don’t watch Dragon Ball heroes.
I've scaled Superman, Xeno Goku, and Cc Goku and out of everything I've seen, Goku has done nothing that compares to Superman punches the world forger and destroying his new multiverse or his crisis anvil. We have to remember that Dawn of DC Superman is a canon composite of all superman from golden age to rebirth, which means he gets all their feats, but none of their weaknesses
Crisis Anvil, I'm not familiar with. The World Forger feat, and correct me if I'm wrong, would be a 6D feat? Regardless, you can wank Superman to Boundless if you're one of those guys so I agree.
@@Unremarkable6969 The sixth dimension isnt a spatial dimension as confirmed by scott snyder, the guy who made the sixth dimension. It's the highest plane of existence in DC's cosmology, which means it trancends everything from the fifth to the orrey of worlds, which every universe in DC is infinite in size with infinite spatial dimensions, while also having infinite planes of existences. The bleed then holds all of those while trancending all of them, then there's the speed force, which exists in every plane of existences. Then there's the god sphere, which trancends dimensionality, mathmatics, and platonic archetypes. Then there's limbo, which where the concept of existence and non existences exists and views everything below as a story written by a monkey, then there's the monitor sphere. Superman punched world forger while in the sixth dimension, so world forger wasnt weakend or anything
@@Unremarkable6969It's not a 6D feat. People have a lot of misconceptions regarding DC's sixth dimension. The world forger feat is way above a 6D feat, the sixth dimension and the places below it like monitor sphere and the god sphere don't have beings with a "limited" dimensionality and the sixth dimension being the highest point (below the overvoid) already surpasses the orrery of worlds and hypertime which have infinite dimensions and multiverse with hypertime even having future dc canons that don't even exist yet.
@@Unremarkable6969 The sixth dimension isnt a spatial dimension, but a higher plane of existence, so saying its a 6d feat is a lowball, especially since a single universe in DC is infinite dimensional
lmao i can easily scale goku from super to outer and i can debunk ur world forger 1. the world forger needed to weaken himself to be in the 4th dimensional multiverse therfore making the feat 5D in nature + superman needed heavy amps from stars to even damage the weakened world forger
I loved this death battle. I do NOT like the outer Goku arguments or the irrelevant speed arguments for both for reasons others pointed out, but I agree with everything else you said. And the animation was FIRE. One day I wanna see an Aquaman VS Yamcha or Krillin db, considering both are the laughing stock of their respective Communities beside being total badasses in their own rights. Or Beast Gohan vs end-of-Story comic Invincible (REVENGE FOR BARDOCK)
@Unremarkable6969 But with Death battles rules (even the 'let everyone show what they got, even when outclassed' rule), that would be a fire battle. Just like the Goku vs Superman pt 3 or the Bowser vs Eggman one (that one was an unexpected BANGER tbh)
I think your analysis is sensible overall, but I have one question: What makes you think the destruction of an area that lacks the concepts of space and time is an outerverse level feat? Such a level of power transcends dimensionality altogether, meanwhile an area that lacks the concepts of space and time doesn't inherently come close to having that property, since it doesn't even have a fourth dimension to be destroyed.
@@justjames4 A popular and simple Outerversal definition is, "Destroying/Creating/significantly affecting an area without the concepts of space and time." Another popular definition is transcending dimensionality, like you said. I just go off what I find and present the information, I don't even know if I really subscribe to Outerversal Goku. It's a solid highball, I think.
@@Unremarkable6969 Oh, okay. That definition is new to me. I don't know why the definition reaches the conclusion it does, so I won't use it, but thanks for telling me where you got the idea from. 👍
7:06 funny thing about immeasurable speed is many people just dont understand it It is going beyond linear/4d time not through so no time travel isnt immeasurable speed
Time Travel isn't speed, but a fourth dimensional being isn't really time traveling so much as they're moving through time, which is what immeasurable speed does. The definition of immeasurable speed is being able to move through time through speed, correct?
@@Unremarkable6969 just checked and the definition is being unbound or beyond time and they said traveling through could qualify for immeasurable speed but it needs context(due to some verses having it so ftl is enough to time travel thus making it not immeasurable speed and time travel just being inconsistent with other feats)
@@ahmedriyad4264 The funny thing about immeasurable speed is that it's entirely fanfiction invented by fans from vs forums. Let me guess, you read the definition from a fan forum or wiki.
@@ndvct6087fiction written by a fan of, and featuring characters from, a particular TV series, film, etc Yeah immeasurable doesn't match the definition of fan fiction also the fact literally everything fictional is made up These tiers existed way before power scalers gave them names
@@ahmedriyad4264 Are they actual fiction, no. Are they made up by fans, yes. When I say they, I mean the tiers, not the names. Yes, all fiction is made up, but they follow a canon. That's why fans can't go around making things up for other fiction. If being fiction was all fans needed to make stuff up like immeasurable speed and then slap it onto other fiction, then all arguments are correct because you just permitted fans to ignore canon and make stuff up. If you want to prove me wrong, provide a legitimate source defining immeasurable speed that isn't a fan-run site and somehow has authority over all fiction for it to be used in power scaling all fiction.
One thing also if I was Lex Luthor and heard Superman say that Space Time has lost its meaning for him I would stay in Jail and become a ally to him then a enemy because I am not dealing with that stuff.
I've honestly always had my doubts with Outer anime/manga Goku. I do think it is a possibility, but it lacks the context for me to think it's enough. And the fact that all my Discord friends that know powerscaling straight up HATE that scaling (or just don't think it makes sense) makes it kind of hard trying to understand that point of view. Anyways, still, great video man, new sub
@@saltsnaiLOL That's fair, Outerversal Goku is a very new concept. I stand by it as a high end scale for him, but I could also see how some would only scale it to 5D, or how someone would think it's inconsistent/doesn't make sense.
@@Unremarkable6969 understandable. I personally have him at 5D with most likely inmesurable speed, but i can see why Outerversal is a plausible high end. Also, you're welcome for the sub. Keep up with the good videos 👍
@Unremarkable6969 I do believe goku is in those mid ranges to high complex of power consistently with high hyperversal and high outerversal for heroes scaling
IMO super man wins. Personally I don’t agree with Outer goku but it can be argued but it doesn’t really matter against someone like Superman at that point
Yeah I agree. I think the whole thing about the empty void having no concept of time is a bit complicated because just about anyone can move in that world and Hit's time powers still work even there, so it's hard to account to it as anything related to outerversal feats.
The reason shallot was brought up is because I’m pretty sure death battle likes to use comp versions of all the characters. So it’s all supermen combined vs all gokus combined
They were on a planet surrounded by red suns and Superman was holding back (as he usually does) to fight Muhammad Ali the entire time out of respect for him and they only fought because the aliens who kidnapped them forced them to.
My biggest problem with the video is that it KEEPS BRINGING UP FINITE FEATS AS IF THEY MEAN ANYTHING. BROTHER THESE GUYS SURPASSED 4D AGES AGO, WHAT DO YOU THINK 1 TRILLION EVEN MEANS TO THEM?
Sonic vs Goku video? 👀 I’ve not really heard about Goku having immeasurable speed before this video tbh. Didn’t think much about it, either as I didn’t think Goku could get there, at least DBS Anime Goku. CC and Xeno Goku, I can see because Heroes pulls out a bunch of stuff lmao
@@Unremarkable6969yeah sonic would win his feats go crazy like how in seven secret rings when he (in base) defeated a being that nearly absorbed 1000 universes and had already absorbed hundreds then beat the same dude who then absorbed all 1000 while having 4 of the world rings while sonic only had 3 world rings and was in his darkspine form
I think the outer world of void arguments works better for characters like zeno and the grand priest rather than goku Since they likely added time to the world of void when the tournament started
@@wcom9999 Id say its evenly both, people think goku is like 100x weaker than he actually is and people think dc is 100x stronger than they actually are
Warning the following text is very long Do you wish to continue? Very well Alright firstly some things you should know before the scaling 1. Strength and power in db grow equally excluding some special cases 2. Irrelevant and immeasurable speed work differently from the previous tiers since they have dimensional/layer scaling Because moving beyond 6d time is far better than moving beyond 4d time and moving something layers into outer is better than moving beyond just the concept of space and time 3. This scaling applies to almost all gokus but to different degrees Now for the scaling Firstly low(downplay)end scaling A nebula is stated to contain innumerable stars in daizenshuu already making it incomprehensibly bigger than our universe than galaxies are stated to contain innumerable nebulas and the universe innumerable galaxies in conclusion db has the best finite level scaling of any fictional story Now low end scaling Firstly the mortal realm is stated to be infinite multiple times so already high uni cosmology now we need to go to dbz kakarot which is canon because it's stated to be an expansion of db lore and is used in dbssh This results in the deathzone existing in canon but more importantly heroes due to dbzk connecting to xenoverse which connects to db online which connects to heroes(there are more things I can state which causes more things to be canon)with this we also get that xenoverse goku is dbs goku(anime) The deadzone unlike what is popularly believed isn't a blackhole or hyperspace but a superspace which without context is 5d then super dimensions are confirmed to a thing in db via dbs broly novelization which are beyond the order of dimensions so already 6d then otherworld transcends this 7d then the macrocosm contains and transcends this so it's 8d then neutral zone angel realm and Zeno realm each beyond the last and beyond the macrocosms so already 11d now a timeline is beyond all this so 12d then xenoverse has three separate sets if infinite timelines so another layer aka 13d now beats world transcends this so it's 14d but not only that it has the same structures as the db world so the cosmology is doubled meaning superspace is 16d there so 23 to 24d aka hyperversal The main event: For this we need to start with the superspace which is the deadzone because superspaces with context of having bosonic string theory and super symmetry are high hyper or infinite dimensional now bulma confirms the existence of this this also results in the super dimension being outer otherworld 2 layers into outer and the timeline is 7 layers into outer with xenoverse 8d layers Now heroes beats world transcends this and deadzone so infinite layers but the super dimension there causes an outer× layers into outer scenario and baseline outer multiplied by itself is high outer so layers into outer and the rest of the cosmology gets it to even more layers Now how much if this db characters scale to(mainly goku) Firstly frieza during namek is confirmed multiple times in second and final form capable of destroying the mortal realm cell upscales this and now kid buu who is confirmed capable of destroying the macrocosm meaning already layers into outer then goku and beerus's clash is called super dimensional which is context to them nearly destroying the macrocosm means they transcend it meaning 3 layers already now infinite zamasu infected an entire timeline and goku was sure he could destroy him if he had a senzu bean meaning already many layers into outer now due to xenoverse dbs goku right after bog in base held off an attack that could destroy infinite timelines then later beat demigra this demigra is stated to be capable of destroying beats world so already layers into high outer and an ssj3 post bog goku beat him meaning no whis training he of course gets stronger throughout the rest of super so yeah now for speed Firstly he was slightly slower than kid buu's attack which destroyed earth before kibito shin teleported them to earth and teleportation techniques because of return of cooler gets instant transmission to irrelevant speed and goku aswell by extension now he gets layer stronger in dbs bog so even faster and with the heroes/xenoverse scaling its even crazier now for something extra Form multipliers: Grade 1 is 50× at first but cooler makes this form stronger because he nosold kaioken times 20 goku's Kamehameha which would require being 10× stronger than it(no domination multipiers aren't accurate) and then a weakened ssj goku nosold coolers punches which results in grade 1 being a 4,440× multiplier ignoring goku's injuries(not taking them into account makes sense because rage boosts) Grade 2: is stated to be much stronger than grade 1 in daizenshuu db consistently uses double for 2× and several for 3× so it's 4× meaning 17,760 Grade 3: el manga legendario confirms its 10× ssj and cell nosold grade 2 attacks while grade 3 trunks did something to the same suppressed so so 10×g2 which means 177,600× Grade 4: is stated to unleash super saiyans full power in daizenshuu and stated to be stronger in el manga legendario so lets say 2× which means 355,200× base Also ssj is stated to be a higher multiplier than 50 after namek by toriyama so this is consistent(if we use the full statement ssj is an outer multi but I dont think that is accurate)
5:08 Correct. However just like they down played Dragonball's universe to a finite size they did the same to DC. A universe in DC is also infinite in size as stated on multiple occasions.
@@Unremarkable6969my logic is is noth universes are infinite then the infinite that expands at faster rates is essentially bigger. DC states some verses extend 60 trillion light-years wider in diameter per half of a second infinitely. Death battle uses certain weird math to showcase DC is more complex and has been expanding longer. My other example is darkseids universe is around 4 billion years older than other universes in DC. Some infinites are bigger than other infinites, even guys like Neil degryse tyson admits this. Hell in DC is another example of more complex than dB cosmology as it holds blaze underworld, the first of the fallen infinite hell, the phantom zone which is its own boundless multiverse ect. The godsphere is a verse that withholds all mythologies lol. Sun wukon bhudda all exist within the godsphere which was infiltrated by darkseid himself. Wonder woman was inside of Norse mythology she met the valkyries and beat thor and she has been in Greek olympus. DC has so much withing its Map its crazy.
3:55 Outerversal UI is something I could be okay with as high ball but I've heard in one comment section that base Goku in Dragon Ball reaches that level based on one image in a manga cover I think it was. It is ridiculous that he could be Outerversal in Dragon Ball.
@@Rose_ScalesGoku is outer in base he can destroy after life which Transcend other dimensions and have no concept of time and stated to transcend dimensionality and connected to the microcosm in the most highest metaphysical
6:20 here is the thing Heroes and some other sources confirmed that there are things beyond just time itself that prevent time travel Also due to the how immeasurable speed works it also has dimensionality(not relevant to the point just mentioned because why not)
@@Unremarkable6969 here is how Firstly time has more than 1 axis so 4d isn't the limit There is 5d time 6d time and so on Moving beyond a higher time axis than 4d gives you higher dimensional immeasurable speed The of immeasurable speed is 5d immeasurable speed this can go all the way to infinite d immeasurable speed or even higher(due to set theory they is more than infinite space and time axis) Then having speed that transcends every possible axis gives you irrelevant speed
My only gripe is that a realm that lacks/does not have time and space(not outerversal) is not the same as a realm that doesn’t have the concepts of time and space(is outerversal) You’re right the world of void doesn’t have those concepts but that comes from a Spanish guide for the tournament of power arc. I personally would’ve used the hyperbolic time chamber and sugoroku space guide statement that says both does not have the concepts of time or space. Making both of them outerversal realms/constructs
Your first and 2nd statements are literally the same thing lacks and not having is the exact same thing In order to be outerversal you need to be > the concepts of space and time, lacking those concepts wouldn't make anything outerversal unless it would specify that that lack of those things was because of an inherent qualitative superiority
@ they are not the same thing because every universe has time and space. Not having them doesn’t make you beyond any higher dimension of time or space like not having the respective concept. Also that is one sentence. “/“ means “or” in this context. It actually would in this context because while both realms are stated to not have the concept of time or space, we see timers or know that it has diluted time and can be moved inside. Meaning that the realms contain time and space that are beyond the concepts of time and space. That’s how that works. Also the lack of those things through a qualitative superiority is also not needed to be honest the concepts of time or space are already outerversal for being beyond any and all higher dimensional feats on a literally conceptual level. What you’re describing is how vsbw does things which has been straight up wrong ever since they nerfed platonic concepts for being 1-A by default because too many verses was getting the scaling.
@@Unremarkable6969 yes but so does sugoroku space and the world of void, this however does not contradict the realms being beyond the concepts of time and space because it would just mean that those realms have time and space beyond that specific concept of time and space.
Bro they only used mainly 3 versions of Superman, but they really could have only used one because all the best feats come from one version. They used at least 4 versions of Goku.
Transcending time isn’t irrelevant speed, it is immeasurable speed Irrelevant speed is transcending the very concept time which isn’t same as just time.
This guys funny. I’ll subscribe his personality is very cool. Also I don’t think Goku is outer tbh even with wov Same with speed I honestly have Goku at infinite max
In db power equal to speed so after life don't have a concept of time and space so Goku power goes beyond time and space means his speed also go beyond time and space making it irrelevant
Also I don't think Goku would use the Zeno Button because Superman is his friend plus he doesn't want to have help unless its needed like with Zamasu he needed help him because he was a bigger threat after being defused by being cut in half plus I don't think Zeno could erase Superman anyway because he can resist being erased from existence.
Errr I Dont think thats outerversal Space and time is 5D with potential of being higher depending on narrative Outerversal is an evniorment that tracends the concept of dimensions or infinite dimensionality...Usually outerversal realms superseed the concepts or even make the concepts that hold the lower dimensions together Goku is definintly not that...Space and time is not outerversal thats just 5D
I think their has be a category being combat and reaction speed just cause one character faster doesn't give them a instinct win dude to fighting by rushing their opponents down or a hit and run tactics.
i do believe that superman wins but it's not as much of a stomp as people make it seem. I feel like dragon ball scaling is getting so crazy that there actually getting close to comic feats
The stamina argument would go to Superman, but I'd mention that fully mastering a form/technique (as a prime Goku would), would bring the strain/ki drain to basically nothing
@@Unremarkable6969 you have a point, I just meant a "prime" goku might have complete mastery, even if we've never seen it. Even if not, I meant the stamina thing applying to the other forms, which are known to need energy/effort to use
I know the death battle everyone wants to see is Metal sonic Vs Cell But quite frankly depending on which scaling you allow for both characters it’s either a hilariously one sided stomp for cell or a hilariously one sided stomp for metal sonic Besides which I’m more partial to Dark Samus Vs Cell I think the superior version of Cell Vs Metal Sonic which allows to use the higher tier scaling of the sonic verse without it being a stomp, that’s honestly fair for both sides Android 21 Vs Metal Sonic She has literally everything cell does, especially So for 21 Cell “Evil 21 with Cell Absorbed majin buu style”, and she has potential scaling to high tiers of the verse like Hit, Goku Black and even Fused Zamasu and maybe even Jiren
6:29 there are arguments for that even during the buu saga Goku was slightly slower than buu's blast the same blast destroyed earth before kibito shin could fully teleport to kaioshin realm the instant transmission/teleportation realm is confirmed by guides to be beyond the concept of time(and space by extension due to both being connected concepts)
For the manga I would only grant that Inaccessible Speed, and now that I think about it the original manga doesn't have too many speed feats. The anime is a different story.
Wait so your telling me that even if Goku is potentially a few billion times stronger then he was at the beginning of super that he would be stuck at multiversal? I’ve done some calculations including zenkais and I’ve think people are actually low balling the hell out of him. Does there have to be specific feat Goku has to do to be classified above multiverse plus? Because based off what I’ve read and looked into I think there’s an argument Goku is hyperversal to even boundless considering infinite strength feats, immeasurable speed feats, and reality manipulation resistance.
From my understanding, when it comes to those levels of power, you either need concrete feats or statements to bump you up. For example, if I'm Universal and get ten times stronger, that's not a solid enough argument for low-multi
I do think you're on the right track when it comes to the thing about Dragon Ball characters not being outright immune to all abilities from people weaker than them but the baby example is actually incorrect. baby could not take over the Dragon Ball characters bodies until he got strong enough to do so he tried to possess trunks but trunks was too strong for him to take over so baby hops from body to body growing stronger with each new host until he got strong enough to take over goten's body absorbing a portion of his power to become strong enough to take over Gohan's body and repeating the process to be able to take over Vegeta's body this wasn't an example of Vegeta being unable to resist The Possession because it's a natural ability but rather because baby was too strong for Vegeta to actually Force out of himself. as far as yakon while Goku was seemingly unable to resist him eating his light as a Super Saiyan Goku was still able to overpower this ability by feeding him more Power and Light then he can handle causing him to explode it's entirely possible that Goku wouldn't be able to resist something like mekeymous ability due to it being a natural ability but at the same time we have seen Dragon Ball characters resist or counter natural abilities all throughout the series. even then ki straight up is a natural ability in the Dragon Ball World everyone possesses the ability to use it it's just a matter of whether or not you know how to so this entire argument could be theoretically debunked by just that one notion alone especially because your power level is largely determined by how strong you are physically and the different components of ki can Loosely be boiled down to physical energy mental energy and spiritual energy the strength of your body the strength of your mind and the strength of your soul. Personally I would Place Superman as being far below Goku due to the fact that his universe is finite and therefore no matter how strong he was to destroy even a Multiverse by the size dimensions of his own franchise even if he were to destroy a Multiverse or even an Omniverse that pales in comparison to destroying a single infinite universe and Superman's power levels are incredibly inconsistent sometimes he's strong enough to shake an entire solar system with a single punch and sometimes he's too slow to catch bullets for no unexplained reason. Goku by contrast is far more consistent unless you take jokes scenes like him getting hurt by a rock seriously Superman also has very little actual experience fighting at the type of speeds that Dragon Ball characters do with Superman's best speed beats largely coming from him flying in a straight line rather than fighting at those speeds or Beyond them. Goku in the more modern Dragon Ball super manga fights at speeds faster than instant teleportation black holes that can destroy the tournament of power stage something so powerful that not even gods of Destruction are able to crack it Ultra casualty while he is exhausted. Superman may have the stamina Advantage but that doesn't really mean anything when his attacks are too weak to do anything to Goku and he is far too slow to keep up with him.
3:07 6 infinities cause calculating how big an overall structure is based on finite calcs even if the base number is infinite will still be blocked in that same dimension or to put it simpler the calc is based on 1 space-time when the db macrocosm is composed of 6 of those and it’s more impressive cause space-time is 4D and the fourth dimension transcends 3 dimensional infinity 3:15 *high uni 3:43 no you would have to prove the world of void TRANSCENDS the concepts of space and time and that those concepts are based on infinite spatial dimensions lacking the concepts of space and time doesn’t really scale anywhere unless the context is that it’s unbounded by it and on what I said earlier but it’s never given and there are some arguments that could argue that despite the world of void lacking space and time it’s still bounded by them ( but i disagree ) 4:19 you can actually thanks to cosmology and how much they have grown into that said scaling if they were both outer they would just be on the same tier 5:24 doesn’t really matter since dc universes are also infinite ( heck you can argue they are somehow beyond infinite/transfinite ) 5:52 db doesn’t but still 6:40 it’s actually when someone is unbounded by time, time travelling is technically already going against the laws of time 7:21 nope still immeasurable for irrelevant speed you need to be outer and irrelevant it’s actually transcending the concept of speed 7:58 experience can help because it gives you more skill, knowledge and versatility in a fight especially really useful when the stats and wincons are really similar sure it’s not always the case but it does help 9:20 but yawko did get overpowered lol 9:45 Vegeta did overpower babidi control This was your funniest video
For speed, I would refer to the comic panel where the trinity discuss if wonder woman is faster than Superman, and even batman agrees that WW takes it, simply due to raw speed losing to reaction speed. For that reason, speed would probably still be a tie between Goku and SM, but slightly leaning towards Goku
I would disagree, especially considering DC has released material stating Superman is faster than WW, which I agree with. He has more consistent and concrete scaling putting him over WW, in my opinion. The same applies for Goku, Superman has a better argument for higher tiers of speed scaling.
@@Unremarkable6969 yeah, but the panel I refer to specifies raw speed vs combat speed, which is a fair factor. mb though, general speed probably would go to superman then
Wait this is completely untelated but if a area that lacks space and time is outerversal, does that mean golb whom existed long before space and time and even before nothingness is outer or no?
They said: “Let’s use dragon ball heroes to help goku!” All that fighting and goku didn’t even use a single form sdbh like universe tree blue which could easily annihilate Superman and every sun that would buff him.
The universal tree is an outside item that requires help to summon it. Hell even if you give him the tree, Superman’s got the miracle machine that can grant wishes and has the power to rewrite a cosmology bigger than DC and Dragon Ball
4:31 then just check the time Goku and Superman got outerversal scaling Like for example, if Superman got outerversal scaling before Goku is universal, then Superman would scale higher despite giving Goku outerversal. The same thing can be said for speed. Also transcending space and time isn’t outerversal as outversal characters transcend the concept of dimensions. Rather, it’s actually a 5-6d feat. And me personally, I don’t agree with outerversal cannon Goku.
I heard a debunk of Superman’s stating on being above space concept. When he states it he says he’s largely above it. Meaning he is only above a large portion of the concept. Not trying to be rude I saw this debunk from a person I saw in the Middle Track of a race. It was an interesting argument though. Although it can be defend. This my opinion by the way, no hate please
Nah you're chill. I don't really get how you can only be sort of above these concepts, so I'm not sure if I'd use that. Plus, I kinda gave Goku and Superman higher end scaling in this video, so
2:32 due to multiple other statements they are likely using infinite as just infinite and not very large Also the fact the diagram was confirmed by toriyama to just be a representation not an accurate model
@@Unremarkable6969 those panels actually exist so our puny mortal minds can comprehend the macrocosm making an accurate diagram of a structure like the db macrocosm would kill people
While this was a decent debunk, I have to respectfully disagree with 2 of your points. 1. Yes, the diazenshuu 4 guidebook page 72 does say the universe is infinite but the thing we have to remember is that terms like "infinite" get thrown around alot to mean alot of different things in fiction. More often than not infinite statements are used hyperbolically. The universes in dbz manga and anime have actually shown consistently being more on the side of a finite scale universe rather than infinite scale universe. A good example is when we see super shenron summoned for the first time in dbs episode 41, right before he comes out his shell, we see his light spreading outwardly in between universes 6 and 7. Giving a clear indication that the universes are finite. As for dc comics we do have statements saying the universe is infinite but I consider those hyperbolic statements. 2. You claimed goku shaking the world of void makes him outerversal. Firstly "outerversal" is a fan made term that's not really used inside fictional works, granted there are abstract beings that do exist in fiction but metaphysics represent all abstract ideas and the fundamental laws of our universe. Not to mention the term outerversal has gone through several definition changes over the last 10 years so its not really a reliable term to be using when powerscaling fictional characters. Terms like universal, multiversal, omniversal are more acceptable terms because these are used in both marvel and dc and a few others. 2ndly beerus doesnt actually say the void is beyond the concepts of time and space, he actually says its a realm without time and space, thats different from transcending the concepts themselves. Lacking something doesn't mean you transcend it. Furthermore you may not even know about this, most goku fans don't but the statement about the world of void being infinite was actually a mistranslation, beerus actually says its a realm that's completely empty and is eternity, in other words the world of void has eternally existed, always was, always is and shall forever be. Goku or technically Jiren shaking the world of void is not really that impressive, because he was shaking an empty realm. Even if we took the mistranslation at face value jiren was still shaking infinite nothingness. Now in closing, Jiren shaking an infinite void is would be more or less on the side of high universal level but if you want my honest opinion I dont think people should be relying too heavily on vs battle's tier system. Anything that is truly infinite by definition is without end and if the universe was truly infinite, then nothing can exist outside it. Anything that is infinite should be the be all and end all to all powerscaling. I mean granted we could argue there are bigger infinities using higher dimension, afterall an infinite square is going to be bigger than the infinite line. But at the end of the day, infinity is infinity
5:03 in math infinite is not just never ending In there’s infinites greater than other If you as a human can only count to 3 every number after 3 is infinite 4 is infinite and 5 is also infinite but what is larger?
From what i see a lot of DC downplay comes from people misunderstanding the dimensions to be the same as spatial dimensions the sixth dimension in DC isnt _actually_ 6D Theyre more like higher realms DC cosmology goes well into boundless
I wonder… would zeno be able to defeat Superman since im pretty sure Whis said that Zeno can erase anyone regardless of their power or Dimensionality? And even if its no limits falicy the story itself implies thats just how he is right?
hey, there is this guy named godzilla king of the monsters, can you check on the how strong is burning godzilla video sinse i didn't understand half of it?
Irrelevant Speed is a speed tier exclusively for anyone or anything that can move outside all spatial limitations including the entire scope of dimensionality and the dimension of time. Moving outside spacetime and moving outside dimensionality and time are two different tiers. 👍
2:52 - I do not think you should use Repetition as a way to measure it.King Piccolo's power was stated to be infinite as well,but we do not honestly argue for something like that.There us also the fact that it is proven in the manga it is not infinite.Becuase the Time Patrol tells us the ammount of stars in one of the galaxy's,which is the same amount as in our real-world galaxy.And galaxy's are sometimes also stated to be infinite(because everything is stated to be infinite in DB). Second of all - World of Void is not infinite.It is a mistranslation,as Beerus states it's "Eternal",because it doesn't use Kanji "Mugen",which means Infinity.Also - the creators literally confirmed,that Tournament of power took around 45 minutes if I remember correctly.But the world of Void doesn't have concepts of time,doesn't it?Exactly,which means it is impossible for the fights to take time...at all.As there is no time in this dimention.So the creators debunked this as a powerscaling feat. Also - Time Patrol is stated to know the exact amount of planets with life in Universe 7.And the ammount is finite.Which is impossible in an infinite universe.Also - didn't we see the edge of the universe when Whis and Beerus were flying Z fighters to Super Drahon Balls? Otherwise - a W video,and GT is cool.Ceers mate.
Also that text dosent even say they universe is infinite but that it infinetly expands. There is a huge diference between saying something has infinite volumen and saying its expanding process is never ending. The data given also suports this, they way they talk and compare sizes dosent match with the idea of them being infinite (per example saying that the kaio shin realm is one tenth of the universe and it orbits said universe. How can something be able to orbit something infinite? Among many others) and honestly I dont think it even matters. I dont see how ignoring Zeno the characters from db can destroy universes, Goku clashing with Beerus is the only moment something similar is brought up (ignoring Zeno) and to me it is clear that they dont scale to the waves since not only they were getting more destructive every time while nothing states Goku also did but they were stated to be able to get to destroy everything including Goku and Beerus. Saying that Goku scales to that means he is able to destroy Beerus if given the chance wich is obviously untrue, even at this point of the franchise. The only character shown to be able to destroy universes was Zeno, who is "infinetly" more powerfull than the angels, who are "infinetly" more powerfull than Beerus who is still leagues ahead of Goku and if most characters were able to destroy universes, then why is he created as the only one able to do so thanks to being leagues ahead of everyone else? It makes no sense, why are they terrified of that power if they too can do it? I dont see any feat suppering Goku and most of the fighters are universal and the narrative tells us otherwise. As for the world of void not only we have what you said but normal people were watching the fight to there, is Bulma outerversal too due to that? It dosent make sense I would have to rewatch their reasoning as to why they say their universe is X times our own but if I recall correctly it was done using the universe map when said map is more simbolic than something made in scale (you can see kaio's planet and the snake way) so it comes from a flawed reasoning
@ oh i agree but they still said they would use it. It feels like they bring it up for an excuse to use alternate superman one offs where he’s significantly stronger than in base, and is where all his high end feats come from. If it was base superman without mentioning all the spin offs, against super goku, superman dosnt come close. It just feels like an excuse to make superman the winner, and then try and make the audience forget that they mentioned heroes to make it sort of fair
@@Unremarkable6969 They did the same thing with Xeno Trunks vs Silver. Sure, scaling Silver is fine, but Trunks? They never use Dragon Ball Heroes’ version of Trunks; instead, they use Dragon Ball Super’s version. They even scale Hit the same way. This is exactly what they did in the scenario-they didn’t do justice to either character.” I mean, imagine even the creator who created the Archie comic said that trunks Win
5:54 outer isnt the max tier you can get higher Like finite increases of 2,30 or higher × stronger or transcendental increases like 2 to immeasurable layers into outer There is also a tier higher than outer which is high outer which is basically something where the gap between it and outer is the same as the gap between outer and every tier before outer and this also has layers
@@Unremarkable6969 my advice is do it slowly Trying to learn this nonsensical power scaling tiers too fast caused me to retire from power scaling awhile ago due not finding it fun anymore Later that changed as you can see
Hey do you know about the Arale meta where Arale transcends fiction In Infinite loops which would be high hyperversal. And since the Otherworld transcends Dimensions that can be perceived from Mortals( Arale IS a Mortal), it would be outer. This is supported since the Otherworld is atemporal and the concept of time doesn't exist?
the otherworld was only said to transcend the mortal realm dimensionally, not transcend dimensions as a whole its more accurate to interpret it as a +1D to the mortal realm
Let's js tie Goku and Superman. The real question is if Vegeta can beat Superman with forced spirit fission, because it's like kryptonite, it drains Superman's solar energy which makes him weak again.
7:30 you need to transcend every possible axis of time and space to be irrelevant speed also both irrelevant and immeasurable have layers each being a immeasurably faster than the last Also super man says largely lost meaning they still have some effect meaning that panel just gets him to immeasurable speed
I was very surprised that this was a genuin and well put together debunking. As soon as I saw the tital, I immediately thought, "Oh no, this is just gonna be a dragon ball dick rider bitching about how Goku should have won." Honestly the toxic reaction to all 3 matches is wat gave me a negative vew of dragon ball and it's fanbase to begin with.
Can you tell I've been playing Silent Hill 2?
No I don’t think so?🤔
@alonsosantos4969 HOW CAN YOU SIT THERE AND EAT PIZZA!?
@ “she said she was fine by her self “
Original, remake or both?
@@Unremarkable6969 the zeno buttle will be outside help in death battle that is one of there rule
when you said "have you ever wanted to give me money" cracked me up 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I stole that bit from Cartoonshi, to be completely transparent.
@@Unremarkable6969lol good video man👍
@@Unremarkable6969Omg I watched that video from cartoonshi not long ago. It was on The Mid House. But ye that’s funny 🤣
Transcending time isn't irrelevant speed. Irrelevant speed is being so fast that you Transcend the concept of speed that you're no longer bound by any spatial and/or temporal dimensions.
Like you said most fiction protrays time as the 4th dimension so by that logic Transcending time would be 5D.
My thought process is that a 4D being would be able to move through time, the same way you would be able to with Immeasurable speed. So being above time would put you at Irrelevant speed.
Tho, I do suppose my logic has flaws, considering there are levels of immeasurable speed. For example, Goku only being able to force himself less than a second into the future, whereas Superman or the Flash can travel back years with their speed.
@@Unremarkable6969 yes. The gap between irrelevant and immeasurable is way big.
@@sonicthehedgehog1606 Ben 10 reference? 🤔
@@Unremarkable6969 no lol
@Unremarkable6969 Goku can have another Irrelevant speed scale. If you believe that Zeno has conceptual erasure due to him erasing Future Trunks timeline, it caused the very timering that was representing it to not exist.
Then Zeno would have erased the concept of the timeline itself, and Goku moving in that void with Zeno would grant them Irrelevant speed. But that is if you belive that string of though.
By the way...universe 7 isn't just infinite of 1500 something infinities... it has a realm unbounded by space and time and Metaphisical if we go by the guide books...aka the afterlife is the realm Im talking about and it isouterversal
I really wish Death Battle would announce which version of the character they use for these. Take for instance your part of the video about speed, most of Superman consistent immeasurable speeds come from the Golden Age Era of Comics, which is not current Superman, while that would be fine if it is a composite Superman, I would assume Goku is also a composite Goku, which you have him moving in time stop via both Supreme Kais of Time in Heroes, yet it isnt mentioned at all
They did in the episode though.
@Gamer_Lizard_68 They did ? I am blind then. But yet they mentioned Dragon Ball Legends and didnt really use anything for heroes, which show things above Super. Or even Xenoverse. So are they not being specific or just nitpicking ?
comp
Current superman is canonically superior to classic anyways
@@dsm2417 did not know that
3:40 As a Dragonball fan I want to believe this is true. However, Grand Priest out right said he put Space and Time in the World of Void before the Tournament. There are still other ways to get Goku there though.
Ever wonder what a fusion between Goku and Superman would look like, and what variant would be stronger, the Potara Ear Rings or the Fusion Dance?
This episode of db got me back into db. Its also my favourite episode, the fight is amazing, the animation is really good and holy crap the song to go with the fight is the one of if not the best along with the ending is very wholesome and shows the a mutal respect to both characters and the respect both Goku and superman would have for eachother
@@Nova-_-Nova8 My favorite interaction is when Goku compliments Superman's suit, and Superman says his mother made it for him.
@@Unremarkable6969yea definitely such a goku and superman thing to say. It was leaps and bounds better then the second fight
Bruh,if logan
Paul sees this,there might be a Superman Vs Logan Paul.
Goku vs superman 3 is still the best episode yes
Agreed 👍
Bowser vs eggman 💀💀💀those who know
Bill vs discord 💀💀💀those who know
Scooby vs courage 💀💀💀💀those who know
@@Unremarkable6969You literally said you don’t agree with the episode (for some reason). Well which is it?!
Did you hear what he said in the video?
@@Blowedits-n7n You did NOT have to add *Those who know* at the end of the titles
One thing we can all agree is that is one of the best death battles. It actually has the right winner given the feats, even if a bit of them are wonky, and the animation and music are amazing. This is the best death battle episode I've ever seen, because of everything. And that ending man... cheifs kiss
I love the rebuttal to "EVEN MAKES GT COOL" is just playing the theme song and your point is instantly proven
DAN DAN KOKORO HIKARETEKU!!
Did they step into the grand tour
Main issue is how they tried to say all Superman and feats are cannon and treat every single version as the same person when that’s far from true. Same thing with Goku, the manga and anime are completely different with different feats.
Rebirth merged all previous versions of every character into one composite version and every writer for D.C. and D.C. higher ups themselves have stated that everything is cannon. Hecate literally allows different and contradictory versions to exist within the Dreaming for her own entertainment and so that nothing can challenge her. Not even the Trans.
Average powerscaling mentality
I think we can all agree at least Goku and Superman would be friends like they are in this Death Battle and I think its obvious that they had a universe made for them so they could fight all out because neither of them would risk the earth.
Bro cannot give it up 😭 he already won...
Okay, but views 🧐
He's a goku fan
Son Goku, of Dragon Ball
@@Unremarkable6969 views are fine it is when you make it that draws the most views for the content because the heat is gone and the algorithm looks for something else
Honestly, they did Dragon Ball Heroes dirty. I mean, Fu, of all people in the Dragon Ball universe, created the scenario where they claim he was defeated. His plan was to remake the entire universe in his own image! Seriously, it feels like they’ve been watching too much DC or something. Yep they don’t watch Dragon Ball heroes.
I've scaled Superman, Xeno Goku, and Cc Goku and out of everything I've seen, Goku has done nothing that compares to Superman punches the world forger and destroying his new multiverse or his crisis anvil.
We have to remember that Dawn of DC Superman is a canon composite of all superman from golden age to rebirth, which means he gets all their feats, but none of their weaknesses
Crisis Anvil, I'm not familiar with.
The World Forger feat, and correct me if I'm wrong, would be a 6D feat?
Regardless, you can wank Superman to Boundless if you're one of those guys so I agree.
@@Unremarkable6969 The sixth dimension isnt a spatial dimension as confirmed by scott snyder, the guy who made the sixth dimension. It's the highest plane of existence in DC's cosmology, which means it trancends everything from the fifth to the orrey of worlds, which every universe in DC is infinite in size with infinite spatial dimensions, while also having infinite planes of existences. The bleed then holds all of those while trancending all of them, then there's the speed force, which exists in every plane of existences. Then there's the god sphere, which trancends dimensionality, mathmatics, and platonic archetypes. Then there's limbo, which where the concept of existence and non existences exists and views everything below as a story written by a monkey, then there's the monitor sphere.
Superman punched world forger while in the sixth dimension, so world forger wasnt weakend or anything
@@Unremarkable6969It's not a 6D feat. People have a lot of misconceptions regarding DC's sixth dimension.
The world forger feat is way above a 6D feat, the sixth dimension and the places below it like monitor sphere and the god sphere don't have beings with a "limited" dimensionality and the sixth dimension being the highest point (below the overvoid) already surpasses the orrery of worlds and hypertime which have infinite dimensions and multiverse with hypertime even having future dc canons that don't even exist yet.
@@Unremarkable6969 The sixth dimension isnt a spatial dimension, but a higher plane of existence, so saying its a 6d feat is a lowball, especially since a single universe in DC is infinite dimensional
lmao i can easily scale goku from super to outer and i can debunk ur world forger 1. the world forger needed to weaken himself to be in the 4th dimensional multiverse therfore making the feat 5D in nature + superman needed heavy amps from stars to even damage the weakened world forger
Yooo I’m in the video. Btw w video
W video keep it up
I loved this death battle. I do NOT like the outer Goku arguments or the irrelevant speed arguments for both for reasons others pointed out, but I agree with everything else you said.
And the animation was FIRE. One day I wanna see an Aquaman VS Yamcha or Krillin db, considering both are the laughing stock of their respective Communities beside being total badasses in their own rights. Or Beast Gohan vs end-of-Story comic Invincible (REVENGE FOR BARDOCK)
Invincible getting murdered 😭
@Unremarkable6969 But with Death battles rules (even the 'let everyone show what they got, even when outclassed' rule), that would be a fire battle.
Just like the Goku vs Superman pt 3 or the Bowser vs Eggman one (that one was an unexpected BANGER tbh)
Same
@@Unremarkable6969yes the zeno button be outside help that is death battle one rule they have
They used heroes tbf, outer heroes characters is pretty valid
I think your analysis is sensible overall, but I have one question: What makes you think the destruction of an area that lacks the concepts of space and time is an outerverse level feat? Such a level of power transcends dimensionality altogether, meanwhile an area that lacks the concepts of space and time doesn't inherently come close to having that property, since it doesn't even have a fourth dimension to be destroyed.
@@justjames4 A popular and simple Outerversal definition is, "Destroying/Creating/significantly affecting an area without the concepts of space and time."
Another popular definition is transcending dimensionality, like you said.
I just go off what I find and present the information, I don't even know if I really subscribe to Outerversal Goku. It's a solid highball, I think.
@@Unremarkable6969 Oh, okay. That definition is new to me. I don't know why the definition reaches the conclusion it does, so I won't use it, but thanks for telling me where you got the idea from. 👍
7:06 funny thing about immeasurable speed is many people just dont understand it
It is going beyond linear/4d time not through so no time travel isnt immeasurable speed
Time Travel isn't speed, but a fourth dimensional being isn't really time traveling so much as they're moving through time, which is what immeasurable speed does.
The definition of immeasurable speed is being able to move through time through speed, correct?
@@Unremarkable6969 just checked and the definition is being unbound or beyond time and they said traveling through could qualify for immeasurable speed but it needs context(due to some verses having it so ftl is enough to time travel thus making it not immeasurable speed and time travel just being inconsistent with other feats)
@@ahmedriyad4264 The funny thing about immeasurable speed is that it's entirely fanfiction invented by fans from vs forums. Let me guess, you read the definition from a fan forum or wiki.
@@ndvct6087fiction written by a fan of, and featuring characters from, a particular TV series, film, etc
Yeah immeasurable doesn't match the definition of fan fiction also the fact literally everything fictional is made up
These tiers existed way before power scalers gave them names
@@ahmedriyad4264 Are they actual fiction, no. Are they made up by fans, yes. When I say they, I mean the tiers, not the names. Yes, all fiction is made up, but they follow a canon. That's why fans can't go around making things up for other fiction. If being fiction was all fans needed to make stuff up like immeasurable speed and then slap it onto other fiction, then all arguments are correct because you just permitted fans to ignore canon and make stuff up. If you want to prove me wrong, provide a legitimate source defining immeasurable speed that isn't a fan-run site and somehow has authority over all fiction for it to be used in power scaling all fiction.
3:48 I thought you were real man 😭
Have you ever wanted to give the Shadow powerscaling man money???
@@Maskman8547 The bag tho 🤔
One thing also if I was Lex Luthor and heard Superman say that Space Time has lost its meaning for him I would stay in Jail and become a ally to him then a enemy because I am not dealing with that stuff.
I've honestly always had my doubts with Outer anime/manga Goku. I do think it is a possibility, but it lacks the context for me to think it's enough. And the fact that all my Discord friends that know powerscaling straight up HATE that scaling (or just don't think it makes sense) makes it kind of hard trying to understand that point of view.
Anyways, still, great video man, new sub
@@saltsnaiLOL That's fair, Outerversal Goku is a very new concept. I stand by it as a high end scale for him, but I could also see how some would only scale it to 5D, or how someone would think it's inconsistent/doesn't make sense.
@@saltsnaiLOL *The sub is appreciated tho 👍
@@Unremarkable6969 understandable. I personally have him at 5D with most likely inmesurable speed, but i can see why Outerversal is a plausible high end. Also, you're welcome for the sub. Keep up with the good videos 👍
@@saltsnaiLOL That's a respectable scale for Goku, and I agree that's the most concrete high end for him.
@Unremarkable6969 I do believe goku is in those mid ranges to high complex of power consistently with high hyperversal and high outerversal for heroes scaling
Linkin Park bleed it out playing at the beginning than going to courage the cowardly dog intro to Charlie Brown adult talking noise is just great.
IMO super man wins.
Personally I don’t agree with Outer goku but it can be argued but it doesn’t really matter against someone like Superman at that point
Yeah I agree. I think the whole thing about the empty void having no concept of time is a bit complicated because just about anyone can move in that world and Hit's time powers still work even there, so it's hard to account to it as anything related to outerversal feats.
Ur stupid af kid Goku negs
The reason shallot was brought up is because I’m pretty sure death battle likes to use comp versions of all the characters. So it’s all supermen combined vs all gokus combined
Nit pick moment
@ wha no it wasn’t I was explaining something you said because you said implied he shouldn’t have been mentioned. Defensive much
Goku solos. This shouldn’t even be a debate. Superman lost to Muhammad Ali 💀
Don't act like muhammad ali doesn't speed blitz comp goku and supes
@@3kznah uh
Bro forgot Superman was nerfed to asinine levels while goku got slapped by bulma 💀
They were on a planet surrounded by red suns and Superman was holding back (as he usually does) to fight Muhammad Ali the entire time out of respect for him and they only fought because the aliens who kidnapped them forced them to.
Y’all are more delusional than saitama fans, always got to make an excuse for everything 💀
My biggest problem with the video is that it KEEPS BRINGING UP FINITE FEATS AS IF THEY MEAN ANYTHING.
BROTHER THESE GUYS SURPASSED 4D AGES AGO, WHAT DO YOU THINK 1 TRILLION EVEN MEANS TO THEM?
Sonic vs Goku video? 👀 I’ve not really heard about Goku having immeasurable speed before this video tbh. Didn’t think much about it, either as I didn’t think Goku could get there, at least DBS Anime Goku. CC and Xeno Goku, I can see because Heroes pulls out a bunch of stuff lmao
Probably
It'd likely be DBS anime Goku VS Game Sonic
@@Unremarkable6969 Sonic stomps easily
Maybe
@@godspeedforce9371 Yeah Sonic straight up wins, Sonic power scaling is cracked out lmao
@@Unremarkable6969yeah sonic would win his feats go crazy like how in seven secret rings when he (in base) defeated a being that nearly absorbed 1000 universes and had already absorbed hundreds then beat the same dude who then absorbed all 1000 while having 4 of the world rings while sonic only had 3 world rings and was in his darkspine form
I think the outer world of void arguments works better for characters like zeno and the grand priest rather than goku
Since they likely added time to the world of void when the tournament started
We need to hear goku vs perer Griffin 🗣️🗣️
Maybe
Superman vs base caba you know what naw it'll be a short base caba no difs
@Slushmongus base Cabba is boundless
Peter solos (no joke)
@@Unremarkable6969 our boi is cabbageversal
Makima solos Goku confirmed 😎
Goku one shots that low Complex fodder
ong, people love downplaying dragon ball
@yardite7777 more like Overrating DC to the heights it can't reach consistent
@@wcom9999 Id say its evenly both, people think goku is like 100x weaker than he actually is and people think dc is 100x stronger than they actually are
@@yardite7777 frr.
I think it's pretty accurate, but this is your opinion and I completely respect it
Warning the following text is very long
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Very well
Alright firstly some things you should know before the scaling
1. Strength and power in db grow equally excluding some special cases
2. Irrelevant and immeasurable speed work differently from the previous tiers since they have dimensional/layer scaling
Because moving beyond 6d time is far better than moving beyond 4d time and moving something layers into outer is better than moving beyond just the concept of space and time
3. This scaling applies to almost all gokus but to different degrees
Now for the scaling
Firstly low(downplay)end scaling
A nebula is stated to contain innumerable stars in daizenshuu already making it incomprehensibly bigger than our universe than galaxies are stated to contain innumerable nebulas and the universe innumerable galaxies in conclusion db has the best finite level scaling of any fictional story
Now low end scaling
Firstly the mortal realm is stated to be infinite multiple times so already high uni cosmology now we need to go to dbz kakarot which is canon because it's stated to be an expansion of db lore and is used in dbssh
This results in the deathzone existing in canon but more importantly heroes due to dbzk connecting to xenoverse which connects to db online which connects to heroes(there are more things I can state which causes more things to be canon)with this we also get that xenoverse goku is dbs goku(anime)
The deadzone unlike what is popularly believed isn't a blackhole or hyperspace but a superspace which without context is 5d then super dimensions are confirmed to a thing in db via dbs broly novelization which are beyond the order of dimensions so already 6d then otherworld transcends this 7d then the macrocosm contains and transcends this so it's 8d then neutral zone angel realm and Zeno realm each beyond the last and beyond the macrocosms so already 11d now a timeline is beyond all this so 12d then xenoverse has three separate sets if infinite timelines so another layer aka 13d now beats world transcends this so it's 14d but not only that it has the same structures as the db world so the cosmology is doubled meaning superspace is 16d there so 23 to 24d aka hyperversal
The main event:
For this we need to start with the superspace which is the deadzone because superspaces with context of having bosonic string theory and super symmetry are high hyper or infinite dimensional now bulma confirms the existence of this this also results in the super dimension being outer otherworld 2 layers into outer and the timeline is 7 layers into outer with xenoverse 8d layers Now heroes beats world transcends this and deadzone so infinite layers but the super dimension there causes an outer× layers into outer scenario and baseline outer multiplied by itself is high outer so layers into outer and the rest of the cosmology gets it to even more layers
Now how much if this db characters scale to(mainly goku)
Firstly frieza during namek is confirmed multiple times in second and final form capable of destroying the mortal realm cell upscales this and now kid buu who is confirmed capable of destroying the macrocosm meaning already layers into outer then goku and beerus's clash is called super dimensional which is context to them nearly destroying the macrocosm means they transcend it meaning 3 layers already now infinite zamasu infected an entire timeline and goku was sure he could destroy him if he had a senzu bean meaning already many layers into outer now due to xenoverse dbs goku right after bog in base held off an attack that could destroy infinite timelines then later beat demigra this demigra is stated to be capable of destroying beats world so already layers into high outer and an ssj3 post bog goku beat him meaning no whis training he of course gets stronger throughout the rest of super so yeah now for speed
Firstly he was slightly slower than kid buu's attack which destroyed earth before kibito shin teleported them to earth and teleportation techniques because of return of cooler gets instant transmission to irrelevant speed and goku aswell by extension now he gets layer stronger in dbs bog so even faster and with the heroes/xenoverse scaling its even crazier now for something extra
Form multipliers:
Grade 1 is 50× at first but cooler makes this form stronger because he nosold kaioken times 20 goku's Kamehameha which would require being 10× stronger than it(no domination multipiers aren't accurate) and then a weakened ssj goku nosold coolers punches which results in grade 1 being a 4,440× multiplier ignoring goku's injuries(not taking them into account makes sense because rage boosts)
Grade 2: is stated to be much stronger than grade 1 in daizenshuu db consistently uses double for 2× and several for 3× so it's 4× meaning 17,760
Grade 3: el manga legendario confirms its 10× ssj and cell nosold grade 2 attacks while grade 3 trunks did something to the same suppressed so so 10×g2 which means 177,600×
Grade 4: is stated to unleash super saiyans full power in daizenshuu and stated to be stronger in el manga legendario so lets say 2× which means 355,200× base
Also ssj is stated to be a higher multiplier than 50 after namek by toriyama so this is consistent(if we use the full statement ssj is an outer multi but I dont think that is accurate)
@@ahmedriyad4264 I saw 24D and now I have a deep cosmological fear of Goku
@@Unremarkable6969so what is your opinion on the full scale
..... that's a whole lot of text
@@sonicthehedgehog1606 it isn't
I would it's a medium amount of text
I do ask you chop it up into neat paragraphs, I have Dyslexia :3
In fact the dragon ball universe is more implied to be finite
Nah superman won
I agree
Bruh
@@Unremarkable6969nah because they didn't use the strongest version of goku
Super Man has to many bullshit in current comics
Superman still wins, CAS will beat Goku with no concept of diff@@DEATHøfKryptøn
W CaseOh joke! I think Superman wins, but I respect your opinion. 😊
Sonic still solos ngl
On Beerus bro
@@Unremarkable6969no
On zeno
On Gaia
On CAR 🙏🙏🙏
5:08 Correct. However just like they down played Dragonball's universe to a finite size they did the same to DC. A universe in DC is also infinite in size as stated on multiple occasions.
@@jeremymorris345 Well my mistake then.
@@Unremarkable6969my logic is is noth universes are infinite then the infinite that expands at faster rates is essentially bigger.
DC states some verses extend 60 trillion light-years wider in diameter per half of a second infinitely.
Death battle uses certain weird math to showcase DC is more complex and has been expanding longer.
My other example is darkseids universe is around 4 billion years older than other universes in DC.
Some infinites are bigger than other infinites, even guys like Neil degryse tyson admits this.
Hell in DC is another example of more complex than dB cosmology as it holds blaze underworld, the first of the fallen infinite hell, the phantom zone which is its own boundless multiverse ect.
The godsphere is a verse that withholds all mythologies lol.
Sun wukon bhudda all exist within the godsphere which was infiltrated by darkseid himself.
Wonder woman was inside of Norse mythology she met the valkyries and beat thor and she has been in Greek olympus.
DC has so much withing its Map its crazy.
"UnremarkableYT *69* " Is such a W Name
Imma save up my money to buy Gojo vs Makina
I love your videos
They left out xeno gokus feats and i thought they were including heros😭
As a DBL player, Shallot has collaborated a few times with SDBH.
3:55 Outerversal UI is something I could be okay with as high ball but I've heard in one comment section that base Goku in Dragon Ball reaches that level based on one image in a manga cover I think it was. It is ridiculous that he could be Outerversal in Dragon Ball.
Outerversal base Goku is wild
@@Unremarkable6969 Outerversal Kid Goku from Dragon ball which was the wilder claim. I think this claim is nonsense but I had heard that.
@@Unremarkable6969he’s probably referring to kid goku punching yamcha so hard he broke the manga panel
@@Firemalleoandjelly We can debate I don’t think Goku gets past universal
@@Rose_ScalesGoku is outer in base he can destroy after life which Transcend other dimensions and have no concept of time and stated to transcend dimensionality and connected to the microcosm in the most highest metaphysical
In my restless dreams, I see that UA-cam Chanel
6:20 here is the thing
Heroes and some other sources confirmed that there are things beyond just time itself that prevent time travel
Also due to the how immeasurable speed works it also has dimensionality(not relevant to the point just mentioned because why not)
How would that work? 🤔 Immeasurable speed having dimensionality
@@Unremarkable6969 here is how
Firstly time has more than 1 axis so 4d isn't the limit
There is 5d time 6d time and so on
Moving beyond a higher time axis than 4d gives you higher dimensional immeasurable speed
The of immeasurable speed is 5d immeasurable speed this can go all the way to infinite d immeasurable speed or even higher(due to set theory they is more than infinite space and time axis)
Then having speed that transcends every possible axis gives you irrelevant speed
Hmm
My only gripe is that a realm that lacks/does not have time and space(not outerversal) is not the same as a realm that doesn’t have the concepts of time and space(is outerversal)
You’re right the world of void doesn’t have those concepts but that comes from a Spanish guide for the tournament of power arc. I personally would’ve used the hyperbolic time chamber and sugoroku space guide statement that says both does not have the concepts of time or space. Making both of them outerversal realms/constructs
Your first and 2nd statements are literally the same thing lacks and not having is the exact same thing
In order to be outerversal you need to be > the concepts of space and time, lacking those concepts wouldn't make anything outerversal unless it would specify that that lack of those things was because of an inherent qualitative superiority
@ they are not the same thing because every universe has time and space. Not having them doesn’t make you beyond any higher dimension of time or space like not having the respective concept. Also that is one sentence. “/“ means “or” in this context.
It actually would in this context because while both realms are stated to not have the concept of time or space, we see timers or know that it has diluted time and can be moved inside. Meaning that the realms contain time and space that are beyond the concepts of time and space. That’s how that works. Also the lack of those things through a qualitative superiority is also not needed to be honest the concepts of time or space are already outerversal for being beyond any and all higher dimensional feats on a literally conceptual level. What you’re describing is how vsbw does things which has been straight up wrong ever since they nerfed platonic concepts for being 1-A by default because too many verses was getting the scaling.
Sugoroku Space, yes. But the Hyperbolic time chamber, doesn't that have it's own flow of time?
@@Unremarkable6969 yes but so does sugoroku space and the world of void, this however does not contradict the realms being beyond the concepts of time and space because it would just mean that those realms have time and space beyond that specific concept of time and space.
Bro they combine all these marvel & dc characters to one and use 1 version of goku or vegeta lol. No shit they would lose
Bro they only used mainly 3 versions of Superman, but they really could have only used one because all the best feats come from one version. They used at least 4 versions of Goku.
Transcending time isn’t irrelevant speed, it is immeasurable speed
Irrelevant speed is transcending the very concept time which isn’t same as just time.
Could you explain that further? 🤔
This guys funny. I’ll subscribe his personality is very cool.
Also I don’t think Goku is outer tbh even with wov
Same with speed I honestly have Goku at infinite max
In db power equal to speed so after life don't have a concept of time and space so Goku power goes beyond time and space means his speed also go beyond time and space making it irrelevant
@
The after life does have those concepts tho
Funny thing Kovach also voiced Goku in the Gogeta vs Vegito DB too. But best DB compared to others, Eggman vs Bowser is second
I prefer MasakoX
Also I don't think Goku would use the Zeno Button because Superman is his friend plus he doesn't want to have help unless its needed like with Zamasu he needed help him because he was a bigger threat after being defused by being cut in half plus I don't think Zeno could erase Superman anyway because he can resist being erased from existence.
Hey, just in time for the 1-year anniversary!
Errr I Dont think thats outerversal
Space and time is 5D with potential of being higher depending on narrative
Outerversal is an evniorment that tracends the concept of dimensions or infinite dimensionality...Usually outerversal realms superseed the concepts or even make the concepts that hold the lower dimensions together
Goku is definintly not that...Space and time is not outerversal thats just 5D
I think their has be a category being combat and reaction speed just cause one character faster doesn't give them a instinct win dude to fighting by rushing their opponents down or a hit and run tactics.
ULTIMATE TENKAICHI???
*proceed to burn himself up*
i do believe that superman wins but it's not as much of a stomp as people make it seem. I feel like dragon ball scaling is getting so crazy that there actually getting close to comic feats
Its funny since the DB universe is vastly smaller than the Marvel or DC universe
The stamina argument would go to Superman, but I'd mention that fully mastering a form/technique (as a prime Goku would), would bring the strain/ki drain to basically nothing
Currently, Goku doesn't have full mastery over MUI, if I remember correctly. Maybe Heroes has a brief line I missed.
@@Unremarkable6969 you have a point, I just meant a "prime" goku might have complete mastery, even if we've never seen it. Even if not, I meant the stamina thing applying to the other forms, which are known to need energy/effort to use
@@Unremarkable6969after fully mastered it ,what do u think who will win?
I know the death battle everyone wants to see is Metal sonic Vs Cell
But quite frankly depending on which scaling you allow for both characters it’s either a hilariously one sided stomp for cell or a hilariously one sided stomp for metal sonic
Besides which I’m more partial to Dark Samus Vs Cell
I think the superior version of Cell Vs Metal Sonic which allows to use the higher tier scaling of the sonic verse without it being a stomp, that’s honestly fair for both sides
Android 21 Vs Metal Sonic
She has literally everything cell does, especially So for 21 Cell “Evil 21 with Cell Absorbed majin buu style”, and she has potential scaling to high tiers of the verse like Hit, Goku Black and even Fused Zamasu and maybe even Jiren
6:29 there are arguments for that even during the buu saga
Goku was slightly slower than buu's blast the same blast destroyed earth before kibito shin could fully teleport to kaioshin realm the instant transmission/teleportation realm is confirmed by guides to be beyond the concept of time(and space by extension due to both being connected concepts)
For the manga I would only grant that Inaccessible Speed, and now that I think about it the original manga doesn't have too many speed feats.
The anime is a different story.
Wait so your telling me that even if Goku is potentially a few billion times stronger then he was at the beginning of super that he would be stuck at multiversal? I’ve done some calculations including zenkais and I’ve think people are actually low balling the hell out of him. Does there have to be specific feat Goku has to do to be classified above multiverse plus? Because based off what I’ve read and looked into I think there’s an argument Goku is hyperversal to even boundless considering infinite strength feats, immeasurable speed feats, and reality manipulation resistance.
From my understanding, when it comes to those levels of power, you either need concrete feats or statements to bump you up. For example, if I'm Universal and get ten times stronger, that's not a solid enough argument for low-multi
Noted so what kinda of feat would Goku need to perform to claim hyperversal or beyond?
I do think you're on the right track when it comes to the thing about Dragon Ball characters not being outright immune to all abilities from people weaker than them but the baby example is actually incorrect.
baby could not take over the Dragon Ball characters bodies until he got strong enough to do so he tried to possess trunks but trunks was too strong for him to take over so baby hops from body to body growing stronger with each new host until he got strong enough to take over goten's body absorbing a portion of his power to become strong enough to take over Gohan's body and repeating the process to be able to take over Vegeta's body this wasn't an example of Vegeta being unable to resist The Possession because it's a natural ability but rather because baby was too strong for Vegeta to actually Force out of himself. as far as yakon while Goku was seemingly unable to resist him eating his light as a Super Saiyan Goku was still able to overpower this ability by feeding him more Power and Light then he can handle causing him to explode it's entirely possible that Goku wouldn't be able to resist something like mekeymous ability due to it being a natural ability but at the same time we have seen Dragon Ball characters resist or counter natural abilities all throughout the series.
even then ki straight up is a natural ability in the Dragon Ball World everyone possesses the ability to use it it's just a matter of whether or not you know how to so this entire argument could be theoretically debunked by just that one notion alone especially because your power level is largely determined by how strong you are physically and the different components of ki can Loosely be boiled down to physical energy mental energy and spiritual energy the strength of your body the strength of your mind and the strength of your soul.
Personally I would Place Superman as being far below Goku due to the fact that his universe is finite and therefore no matter how strong he was to destroy even a Multiverse by the size dimensions of his own franchise even if he were to destroy a Multiverse or even an Omniverse that pales in comparison to destroying a single infinite universe and Superman's power levels are incredibly inconsistent sometimes he's strong enough to shake an entire solar system with a single punch and sometimes he's too slow to catch bullets for no unexplained reason.
Goku by contrast is far more consistent unless you take jokes scenes like him getting hurt by a rock seriously Superman also has very little actual experience fighting at the type of speeds that Dragon Ball characters do with Superman's best speed beats largely coming from him flying in a straight line rather than fighting at those speeds or Beyond them.
Goku in the more modern Dragon Ball super manga fights at speeds faster than instant teleportation black holes that can destroy the tournament of power stage something so powerful that not even gods of Destruction are able to crack it Ultra casualty while he is exhausted.
Superman may have the stamina Advantage but that doesn't really mean anything when his attacks are too weak to do anything to Goku and he is far too slow to keep up with him.
3:07 6 infinities cause calculating how big an overall structure is based on finite calcs even if the base number is infinite will still be blocked in that same dimension or to put it simpler the calc is based on 1 space-time when the db macrocosm is composed of 6 of those and it’s more impressive cause space-time is 4D and the fourth dimension transcends 3 dimensional infinity
3:15 *high uni
3:43 no you would have to prove the world of void TRANSCENDS the concepts of space and time and that those concepts are based on infinite spatial dimensions lacking the concepts of space and time doesn’t really scale anywhere unless the context is that it’s unbounded by it and on what I said earlier but it’s never given and there are some arguments that could argue that despite the world of void lacking space and time it’s still bounded by them ( but i disagree )
4:19 you can actually thanks to cosmology and how much they have grown into that said scaling if they were both outer they would just be on the same tier
5:24 doesn’t really matter since dc universes are also infinite ( heck you can argue they are somehow beyond infinite/transfinite )
5:52 db doesn’t but still
6:40 it’s actually when someone is unbounded by time, time travelling is technically already going against the laws of time
7:21 nope still immeasurable for irrelevant speed you need to be outer and irrelevant it’s actually transcending the concept of speed
7:58 experience can help because it gives you more skill, knowledge and versatility in a fight especially really useful when the stats and wincons are really similar sure it’s not always the case but it does help
9:20 but yawko did get overpowered lol
9:45 Vegeta did overpower babidi control
This was your funniest video
The CapCut at the end killing me 😭😭
@@Realhuman111 Editing mistake on my part :3
I still can’t understand,why does the majority of the fandom think No Space & Time = Outerversal?
For speed, I would refer to the comic panel where the trinity discuss if wonder woman is faster than Superman, and even batman agrees that WW takes it, simply due to raw speed losing to reaction speed. For that reason, speed would probably still be a tie between Goku and SM, but slightly leaning towards Goku
I would disagree, especially considering DC has released material stating Superman is faster than WW, which I agree with. He has more consistent and concrete scaling putting him over WW, in my opinion.
The same applies for Goku, Superman has a better argument for higher tiers of speed scaling.
@@Unremarkable6969 yeah, but the panel I refer to specifies raw speed vs combat speed, which is a fair factor. mb though, general speed probably would go to superman then
HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE'S BAAAAAAAACK!!!🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Busy week man 😮💨
Thankfully, the Holidays are less cluttered for me.
@Unremarkable6969 you cooked that video to perfection 👌👌🍲🍲🍲
@nathanbardol1236 Thank you 👍
He was already Outer since BoG but good scaling chain lowball
Wait this is completely untelated but if a area that lacks space and time is outerversal, does that mean golb whom existed long before space and time and even before nothingness is outer or no?
Also to add, golb has almost or complete control over this void.
They said: “Let’s use dragon ball heroes to help goku!”
All that fighting and goku didn’t even use a single form sdbh like universe tree blue which could easily annihilate Superman and every sun that would buff him.
I don't think Death Battle should have used Heroes
The universal tree is an outside item that requires help to summon it. Hell even if you give him the tree, Superman’s got the miracle machine that can grant wishes and has the power to rewrite a cosmology bigger than DC and Dragon Ball
Finally some respect for dragon ball GT.
4:31 then just check the time Goku and Superman got outerversal scaling
Like for example, if Superman got outerversal scaling before Goku is universal, then Superman would scale higher despite giving Goku outerversal. The same thing can be said for speed.
Also transcending space and time isn’t outerversal as outversal characters transcend the concept of dimensions. Rather, it’s actually a 5-6d feat. And me personally, I don’t agree with outerversal cannon Goku.
I heard a debunk of Superman’s stating on being above space concept. When he states it he says he’s largely above it. Meaning he is only above a large portion of the concept. Not trying to be rude I saw this debunk from a person I saw in the Middle Track of a race. It was an interesting argument though. Although it can be defend. This my opinion by the way, no hate please
Nah you're chill. I don't really get how you can only be sort of above these concepts, so I'm not sure if I'd use that.
Plus, I kinda gave Goku and Superman higher end scaling in this video, so
@@Unremarkable6969that makes sense. Also whats your thoughts on MiddleTrack
2:32 due to multiple other statements they are likely using infinite as just infinite and not very large
Also the fact the diagram was confirmed by toriyama to just be a representation not an accurate model
I consider it accurate, based on a panel from the DBS manga. And it's much better than the alternative, some ball that Whis showed us a few times.
@@Unremarkable6969 those panels actually exist so our puny mortal minds can comprehend the macrocosm making an accurate diagram of a structure like the db macrocosm would kill people
Kinda like how if you saw where Cuthulu comes from your brain would melt or something? 🤔
While this was a decent debunk, I have to respectfully disagree with 2 of your points.
1. Yes, the diazenshuu 4 guidebook page 72 does say the universe is infinite but the thing we have to remember is that terms like "infinite" get thrown around alot to mean alot of different things in fiction. More often than not infinite statements are used hyperbolically.
The universes in dbz manga and anime have actually shown consistently being more on the side of a finite scale universe rather than infinite scale universe.
A good example is when we see super shenron summoned for the first time in dbs episode 41, right before he comes out his shell, we see his light spreading outwardly in between universes 6 and 7. Giving a clear indication that the universes are finite.
As for dc comics we do have statements saying the universe is infinite but I consider those hyperbolic statements.
2. You claimed goku shaking the world of void makes him outerversal.
Firstly "outerversal" is a fan made term that's not really used inside fictional works, granted there are abstract beings that do exist in fiction but metaphysics represent all abstract ideas and the fundamental laws of our universe.
Not to mention the term outerversal has gone through several definition changes over the last 10 years so its not really a reliable term to be using when powerscaling fictional characters. Terms like universal, multiversal, omniversal are more acceptable terms because these are used in both marvel and dc and a few others.
2ndly beerus doesnt actually say the void is beyond the concepts of time and space, he actually says its a realm without time and space, thats different from transcending the concepts themselves. Lacking something doesn't mean you transcend it.
Furthermore you may not even know about this, most goku fans don't but the statement about the world of void being infinite was actually a mistranslation, beerus actually says its a realm that's completely empty and is eternity, in other words the world of void has eternally existed, always was, always is and shall forever be.
Goku or technically Jiren shaking the world of void is not really that impressive, because he was shaking an empty realm. Even if we took the mistranslation at face value jiren was still shaking infinite nothingness.
Now in closing, Jiren shaking an infinite void is would be more or less on the side of high universal level but if you want my honest opinion I dont think people should be relying too heavily on vs battle's tier system.
Anything that is truly infinite by definition is without end and if the universe was truly infinite, then nothing can exist outside it. Anything that is infinite should be the be all and end all to all powerscaling.
I mean granted we could argue there are bigger infinities using higher dimension, afterall an infinite square is going to be bigger than the infinite line. But at the end of the day, infinity is infinity
5:03 in math infinite is not just never ending
In there’s infinites greater than other
If you as a human can only count to 3 every number after 3 is infinite
4 is infinite and 5 is also infinite but what is larger?
From what i see a lot of DC downplay comes from people misunderstanding the dimensions to be the same as spatial dimensions
the sixth dimension in DC isnt _actually_ 6D
Theyre more like higher realms
DC cosmology goes well into boundless
Cringe
I wonder… would zeno be able to defeat Superman since im pretty sure Whis said that Zeno can erase anyone regardless of their power or Dimensionality? And even if its no limits falicy the story itself implies thats just how he is right?
Finally gt respect
hey, there is this guy named godzilla king of the monsters, can you check on the how strong is burning godzilla video sinse i didn't understand half of it?
Probably
Irrelevant Speed is a speed tier exclusively for anyone or anything that can move outside all spatial limitations including the entire scope of dimensionality and the dimension of time.
Moving outside spacetime and moving outside dimensionality and time are two different tiers. 👍
2:52 - I do not think you should use Repetition as a way to measure it.King Piccolo's power was stated to be infinite as well,but we do not honestly argue for something like that.There us also the fact that it is proven in the manga it is not infinite.Becuase the Time Patrol tells us the ammount of stars in one of the galaxy's,which is the same amount as in our real-world galaxy.And galaxy's are sometimes also stated to be infinite(because everything is stated to be infinite in DB).
Second of all - World of Void is not infinite.It is a mistranslation,as Beerus states it's "Eternal",because it doesn't use Kanji "Mugen",which means Infinity.Also - the creators literally confirmed,that Tournament of power took around 45 minutes if I remember correctly.But the world of Void doesn't have concepts of time,doesn't it?Exactly,which means it is impossible for the fights to take time...at all.As there is no time in this dimention.So the creators debunked this as a powerscaling feat.
Also - Time Patrol is stated to know the exact amount of planets with life in Universe 7.And the ammount is finite.Which is impossible in an infinite universe.Also - didn't we see the edge of the universe when Whis and Beerus were flying Z fighters to Super Drahon Balls?
Otherwise - a W video,and GT is cool.Ceers mate.
Also that text dosent even say they universe is infinite but that it infinetly expands. There is a huge diference between saying something has infinite volumen and saying its expanding process is never ending. The data given also suports this, they way they talk and compare sizes dosent match with the idea of them being infinite (per example saying that the kaio shin realm is one tenth of the universe and it orbits said universe. How can something be able to orbit something infinite? Among many others) and honestly I dont think it even matters. I dont see how ignoring Zeno the characters from db can destroy universes, Goku clashing with Beerus is the only moment something similar is brought up (ignoring Zeno) and to me it is clear that they dont scale to the waves since not only they were getting more destructive every time while nothing states Goku also did but they were stated to be able to get to destroy everything including Goku and Beerus. Saying that Goku scales to that means he is able to destroy Beerus if given the chance wich is obviously untrue, even at this point of the franchise. The only character shown to be able to destroy universes was Zeno, who is "infinetly" more powerfull than the angels, who are "infinetly" more powerfull than Beerus who is still leagues ahead of Goku and if most characters were able to destroy universes, then why is he created as the only one able to do so thanks to being leagues ahead of everyone else? It makes no sense, why are they terrified of that power if they too can do it? I dont see any feat suppering Goku and most of the fighters are universal and the narrative tells us otherwise.
As for the world of void not only we have what you said but normal people were watching the fight to there, is Bulma outerversal too due to that? It dosent make sense
I would have to rewatch their reasoning as to why they say their universe is X times our own but if I recall correctly it was done using the universe map when said map is more simbolic than something made in scale (you can see kaio's planet and the snake way) so it comes from a flawed reasoning
9:07 here is the thing ki has negated hax that dont use ki so assuming they can negate other hax is a fair assumption
Could you refresh me on those examples?
@@Unremarkable6969 these are ones I remember
1. Vegeta resisting babidi
2. Trunks resisting baby's possession the first time
Ki can overpower magic, and Trunks was taken over later.
You forgot to mention the heroes scaling, which makes goku boundless… so yeah
I don't think Death Battle should have used Heroes scaling
@ oh i agree but they still said they would use it. It feels like they bring it up for an excuse to use alternate superman one offs where he’s significantly stronger than in base, and is where all his high end feats come from. If it was base superman without mentioning all the spin offs, against super goku, superman dosnt come close. It just feels like an excuse to make superman the winner, and then try and make the audience forget that they mentioned heroes to make it sort of fair
@@Unremarkable6969 They did the same thing with Xeno Trunks vs Silver. Sure, scaling Silver is fine, but Trunks? They never use Dragon Ball Heroes’ version of Trunks; instead, they use Dragon Ball Super’s version. They even scale Hit the same way. This is exactly what they did in the scenario-they didn’t do justice to either character.” I mean, imagine even the creator who created the Archie comic said that trunks Win
Heroes at best has hyperversal scaling, Superman has casual outer feats.
He’s not boundless. Low complex multi. 👍
What is your favorite death battle?
Omni-Man VS Homelander is really good, Jason Vorhees VS Micheal Myers is too. Deadpool VS The Mask is a favorite too. It's hard to pick.
5:54 outer isnt the max tier you can get higher
Like finite increases of 2,30 or higher × stronger or transcendental increases like 2 to immeasurable layers into outer
There is also a tier higher than outer which is high outer which is basically something where the gap between it and outer is the same as the gap between outer and every tier before outer and this also has layers
I'm trying man, I just got a grasp on Outerversal scaling
@@Unremarkable6969 my advice is do it slowly
Trying to learn this nonsensical power scaling tiers too fast caused me to retire from power scaling awhile ago due not finding it fun anymore
Later that changed as you can see
Hey do you know about the Arale meta where Arale transcends fiction In Infinite loops which would be high hyperversal.
And since the Otherworld transcends Dimensions that can be perceived from Mortals( Arale IS a Mortal), it would be outer. This is supported since the Otherworld is atemporal and the concept of time doesn't exist?
the otherworld was only said to transcend the mortal realm dimensionally, not transcend dimensions as a whole
its more accurate to interpret it as a +1D to the mortal realm
@be7256
There would be Infinite higharchies If Dimensions via the Arale feat though which could make it outerversal
Ready to debunk then inevitable Cell vs metal sonic episode?
Let's js tie Goku and Superman. The real question is if Vegeta can beat Superman with forced spirit fission, because it's like kryptonite, it drains Superman's solar energy which makes him weak again.
Answer is no
@mev1221 Proof: my ass
7:30 you need to transcend every possible axis of time and space to be irrelevant speed also both irrelevant and immeasurable have layers each being a immeasurably faster than the last
Also super man says largely lost meaning they still have some effect meaning that panel just gets him to immeasurable speed
I'd still argue Superman has better arguments for higher tiers of Speed Scaling.
Ol saying goku gets tired in 15 minutes is just stupid considering thr tournament of power was going on for multiple days
9:32 there's absolutely no evidence of that as Kaguya did something similar to genjutsu on humans who didn't possess Chakra.
I knew it was risky using Chakra as an example, since Chakra is based on a Chakra network, which is a very Naruto exclusive thing.
But idk
@
as long as a being has the capability to dream with significant sense, they can be affected by genjutsu.
I was very surprised that this was a genuin and well put together debunking.
As soon as I saw the tital, I immediately thought, "Oh no, this is just gonna be a dragon ball dick rider bitching about how Goku should have won."
Honestly the toxic reaction to all 3 matches is wat gave me a negative vew of dragon ball and it's fanbase to begin with.
11:57 doesnt superman have resistance to being erased ?
So zeno wozld have been pretty useless right ?
Yeah, he took Darkseid Omega beams
@@CarlosGarcia91000he stated to earse anything regarding of his power or scale or complexity
Goku survived being erased aswell by the hakai of the Universe 9 G.O.D