To clarify! When I asked why Eggman's trump cards weren't factored into the main scenario, I am not referring to the animation, done by Moro. Animation, especially now, is expensive and time consuming, I completely understand why things like the Time Eater and the Metal Virus could not be included for the main fight animation. What I am referring to is the over all conclusion they came to, because beings like Infinite and Neo Metal, and game enders like Spatial displacement and the Phantom Ruby, seemed to be swept under the rug during the final section.
@@Unremarkable6969 Bowser's side also had way more things that could have been brought up but weren't included, pretty sure King Boo got glossed over for the most part aside from field control. Heck he could have possessed Metal and there wouldn't be any way for him to counter it, from my own research I couldn't find a single argument that he could resist possession by himself. Also Infinite is not that big of a threat, it is just the writing of Forces that hyped him up so much that he couldn't possibly live up to the expectation, also the storyboard artist confirmed that his crushing by the Twhomp was a reference to another Bowser vs Eggman animation. But are you mad that Eggman didn't win or are you fine with the result, just disappointed they didn't analyze his stuff the way you did in your video? A lot of debunk videos usually stamp from someone being salty because their character didn't win, but Bowser vs Eggman was so close it didn't feel to me like their research was wrong.
Infinite doesn't really have any resistance to transmutation unless you count the cube wispon, but that's not on the same level or scale as Bowsers reality warping and transmutation. Bowser could also steal the ruby. The only phantom ruby user with resistance to transmutation would be Lightman in the egg fields seeing as he controls all aspects of it and can make his thoughts into reality. Both have insta win sealing like King Boo's paintings that immobilize and seal, and cyberspace and spatial displacement traps. Each would be hard to pull off given the amount of allies in each side. If either is pulled off it's an insta deal. Bowser has no way to counter super Neo metal as the chaos emeralds remove adverse effects, and are able to attack conceptually. Doesn't have a reliable way of getting rid of the time eater either.
Because, if Eggman brought them up, Bowser had something to counter it. So, just as Eggman's options were swept under, so would the solutions that Bowser could present.
@@Uesr2004DDont act like most fandoms ere not toxic when a character of the verse they like lose. Elso, yall should check his community post, he adressed this claim.
@@Dawnfall_06yeah, that and the Egg Wizard were the only mechs Eggman shouldn't get. He is confirmed to have every other mech and robot he has used before though.
Im gonna make some counter arguments, as a fan of both "You gave kamek chance time, I don't want to hear it" I'm not sure that's a prep-time issue, that kinda just happens in like 20 seconds. The real issue is if they count it as canon "They gave him infinite, but where's starline" as of now? Dead. Before that? About as against him as the deadly six "There's no way Bowser is doing anything to the egg dragoon" well, if you noticed in the animation, while he did hit the gun, the main way to destroy it was actually just throwing the electric drill attack back at it to weaken, and THEN impale the cockpit. So he didn't destroy the machine, he just broke through a part of it The metal virus is confusing because by all technicalities, shadow *did* resist it for a bit. there are moments where he's clearly spindashing into the horde, and he comes out fine. Plus, shadow was created at minimum 50 years before the metal virus, which isn't naturally occuring. And it mutates rather quickly. "Knowing Mario fans -" listen, as a sonic fan, we are in NO position to talk For the phantom Ruby I think it's more of a cancels out. The phantom Ruby alters reality, yes. So does the wonder flower. It's kinda pointless to have both because neither get an edge. Oh boy, the super sonic thing. Okay, throughout frontiers, which is after the metal virus arc in IDW, sonic says "I'll need the chaos emeralds, and maybe a little luck." Sage calculates that supersonic can't defeat the end on his own. And in the final horizon dlc (if bowser gets Mario party, we get this), supersonic is shown to be OBJECTIVELY overpowered. The chaos emeralds, when gathered, should not be able to have infinite power, while also being overpowered. As for the loyalty part...yeah they could have worded it better, essentially eggman isn't the best strategist in terms of war. Referring back to IDW, tails notes that when metal sonic, pretending to be eggman, sent out robots, they were much more coordinated. It's more like teamwork and strategy. They just phrased it bad. "Your games are still mid anyway" don't get cocky, we still had the 2010's, the worst mainline mario got was the NSMB series, which isnt even close to sonic's worst That's about all of my issues.
Honestly I was having immense issues when this started talking about infinite scaling feat which really oversells a lot of what Sonic characters have done in the past There are impressive feats but jeez none of these guys are infinite in any regard
@Skynetbear didn't break that down, but I found the logic sound, the result unacceptable. Because that means that base sonic scales beyond Solaris, and maybe I'm in the wrong, but that's ridiculous
@@burbusburbus8782 My problem was that you could make the same infinite feats for Bowser who tanked the destruction of the universe which has a similar cosmological scale to Sonic’s and had the Pure Hearts which are capable of repairing the damage caused by the Chaos Heart capable of wiping out all existence Now what we have is 2 characters who are just infinite in what they can do and the scaling gets muddy
Let's make this interesting... I'll be trying to *defend* everything I feasibly can, this comment will be updated with everything once I'm finished. "why weren't the alternate scenarios / some of Eggman's gear used in the main scenario" Because they're not made of money, they couldn't feasibly include everything in the animation. You could also make this argument for Bowser. why didn't they include the Star Rod, The Dream Stone, or The Wonder Flower? It would be the same answer, they just didn't have the budget for it. Those alternate scenarios weren't even meant to be there, they were just something Morø did for fun (further proof why he's a goat). Rest assured that even *if* it wasn't in the animation or they didn't have enough time to mention it while keeping a cohesive and well-paced conclusion, it *was* likely factored in. "They don't mention any of the stronger Eggman Mechs" Uh... Yes they do...? they're pretty explicitly listed in Eggman's arsenal. They're also probably the reason Eggman was given, and I quote: "Equivalent strength via mechs" "Eggman built a thing that transcends dimensionality and then has things later that are stated to be the strongest thing he's ever built" Cool i guess but Bowser and his army have the scaling to match. As for the Egg Dragoon being stronger than The Egg Salamander and having immeasurable speed. Fair I guess, Sonic power creep does go crazy. Though I could argue Bowser just has the stats to match. "They don't use the hard-boiled heavies" I've heard that they were cut and appeared fighting the koopalings in the storyboards, mainly because it would have just taken too much time for a segment so small. Also, just look at defense number 1. As a bonus defense, Phantom King is one of the many people who betrayed Eggman, so it's unlikely he would have factored in (at *most* we would have gotten Heavy King) "Metal Sonic should be beyond lightspeed" True, Death Battle also probably agrees with you. He *was* likely scaled to the 73 quadrillion times lightspeed feat in Eggman's analysis and the immeasurable arguments given in the black boxes during the post analysis. Also, as for the copying, it's mentioned Kamek can just shut it down in the post analysis (they also King Boo just flat out possessing technology IIRC, so that's also another counter as he could just possess Metal Sonic and stop him from doing shit). "The Phantom Ruby's illusions are real" ...True! I won't defend this, I think it was dumb for them to focus on this argument. I think choosing to focus on the Wonder Flowers debatably greater scale as mentioned in the post analysis would have been *much* better. "Infinite downplay" Yeah, You could argue Infinite is stronger then where they put him (as long as you don't argue he's Solaris level I don't have a problem LOL). Bowser's army however can reach the same scale and have the hax to take him out (Transmutation, Wishing him out of existence, you get the idea). *However,* you *can't* scale him to stuff like Mania's Phantom Ruby. Because Infinite only has a weaker prototype Phantom Ruby (to be fair, this is a detail a lot of people forget). "Why didn't they give Eggman the Lightman form?" Because of the shitton of prep it takes. Even then, the only real leg up it would give him is its memory manipulation. You can argue Bowser resists this due to his brain constantly creating backups of memories (It's his brain is also encrypted like a computer, but it's simultaneously still organic so Sage can't hack it. Even if it could be hacked, if she tried it would release Memory M & L as a defense mechanism.) Also, Chance Time was just for the lulz. Bowser has several other ways to steal items. "Solaris downplay" ...Yeah... Not much to say, Solaris scaling was downplayed based on what was said verbally. "Where's Starline?" One of the many people who betrayed him, and Eggman wouldn't be willing to work with him again. Which means he wasn't factored in. "The best for Bowser is inaccessible." Nope! He was able to keep up with Chaos Heart-amped individuals like Count Bleck and Super Dimentio, which threatened every world and dimension in all of existence by physically traveling in and destroying each one (the only exception was Dimension D due to Dimentio controlling the Void and specifically making it be safe). This would necessarily have to include the Cutout dimension, which is stated to “transcend the boundaries of space and time”, effectively making it beyond time. The Pure Hearts were also able to catch up to the Void and reverse it, meaning they’d need immeasurable speed to do so. "5D scaling" Bowser has this and 6-D scaling, for more info read "the true scope of Mario's cosmology" on reddit "Spatial displacement trap" Bowser resists it through some combination of reality warping, matter manipulation, and his own physical durability. Worst case scenario, his regeneration is just *that* good. Can Eggman resist being turned into a brick or a painting though? That's what I thought. "The metal virus" Bowser has counters to it up the ass! Just to list... A *few* 1. Party Cleanse (get rid of all the party's negative status effects) 2. Minion Spirit (allows them to resist mine corruption because they're just *that* loyal lol) 3. Even if you want to argue it's corruption is *layered.* Bowser Jr could just use the medicine he used to cure Morton of Formula:X's brainwashing (Morton was immune to Fawful's mind corruption last game). "The only thing that can counter The Phantom Ruby is The Phantom Ruby" No Limits Fallacy. The Phantom Ruby has never really interacted with other reality warping powers before, so we can't say it would be immune to it. Even then, nothing is preventing it from just being stolen (or turned into a slipper by Kamek) "The Lightman should have been used because Death Battle takes combatants at their best)" The Lightman just isn't a form Eggman has easy access to compared to something like Dreamy Bowser or Wonder Bowser where he only needs one specific item to activate the form. It'd be like giving Dr Doom The Beyonders powers because that was technically his best. It's just *not* something he can access easily, even then it's not really a guaranteed win. "The Chaos Emeralds grant infinite power, so the Grand Stars couldn't match them.) Infinite Power is... Pretty vague and undefined, it'd be a bit disingenuous to say it's infinitely above something because of a singular statement. Even then the stars aren't even the best MacGuffin Bowser has. "Loyalty doesn't matter" Okay. The argument isn't *just* that Bowser's army is more loyal. That's used as supporting evidence that Bowser's army is just better at working together, Eggman's a terrible team player who gets betrayed constantly and whose army just isn't really built to work together for an all-out war scenario like this one. "Eggman's ambitions aren't as high" Bowser's army being bigger probably also helps with the much larger conquest LMAO. In all seriousness, the point about their conquests is more so just to cap it off, not an actual important argument.
Took way too long to find a comment like this. Thank you for being one of the few actually trying to contribute to the conversation instead of the typical "Hurr salty fanboy hahaahh!!" comments (though the uploader's attitude certainly doesn't help prevent those types of comments)
Watched one minute of the video before clicking off bruh. "Why didn't they use the alternate scenarios in the fight" because none of those things change the outcome u bum they literally said this 💀
Finally, someone gets it. Why would they make the whole fight about scenarios that either end in a tie or where Eggman still loses? If both sides had all their reality warping, it would just tie no matter what. So neither side got their reality warping. Which means Bowser wins. It's not like they didn't have the 7 friggin Chaos Emeralds, they were not downplayed at all.
@BBK113 JoJo fans (including myself) don't get nearly as upset or care as much for their character losing compared to dragon ball and sonic fans. They go apeshit if their character loses, but at least with among us vs. fall guys, I'm pretty sure fans of both series won't really care if either one loses.
While I still dont agree with Infinite being above Solaris and Time Eater, I can at least appreciate that you at least TRIED to explain how he could be stronger than the two via scaling, rather than just resort to just that dumb quote from the promotional material. It's nice seeing effort. Also, for every "Didnt give Eggman This or That," there's definitely one for Bowser as well. At least we got some animated Lightman and Time Eater, as well as the Metal Virus, so I can't complain Fuck Forces though
@@Unremarkable6969 Though without Forces, we wouldn't have gotten Infinite's Theme He's such a cool concept but goddamn it he's the ONLY good appeal of Forces. Thwomp'd
I respect your debunk, but I still think Bowser wins this. Especially since you didnt really do a good job Debunking the Bowser stuff since you skipped over his section. Not to mention, powerscaling is way too subjective to just say the Mario cast CANT have immersurable speed and that Bowser cant match the emeralds if he has the stars AND the dream stone.
Power scaling isn't subjective, it's objective, it's just that most people are too biased to admit their wrong, or most people don't do proper research Something DB is known for... I still remember those god awful outcomes between Hulk vs Broly, Megatron vs Frieza, and Discord vs Bill cypher
Multiversal base mario and luigi is some of the dumbest power scaling wank I've seen and completely breaks the narrative of every game. This isn't even a kirby situation where at least the character is portrayed as doing amazing feats on screen to somewhat back up the scaling. Mario has 0 planet busting feats whatsoever. He has dozens of building level and below antifeats. He is supposed to be physically weaker than regual bowser. Why are people trying to use dreamy bowser to scale everyone to multiversal and beyond. Modern powerscaling is nonsense
Mario games are boring to ME. They are polished, Galaxy is fun and cozy, and 64 broke boundaries and paved the way for the 3D platforming genre. But for me, they are just fluff. In one ear and out the other.
@@Unremarkable6969I think you are completely right. In fact I can’t even play a Mario game without being completely bored through my mind. I mean heck Sonic 1 had MULTIPLE ROUTES YOU COULD GO THROUGH ON THE LEVELS and the only game I saw from Mario that did that was a DS game. NOT EVEN THE WII GAME DID THAT LIKE BRO WHAT THE HELL. And don’t get me started on how Mario characters in almost every game have little personality while Sonic games SHOW PEOPLE GETTING KILLED IN COMICS AND GAMES LIKE BRO WHAT IS EVERYONE ON?!?!
I mean the comics are a different story as unlike the games they aren’t restricted as much and I won’t deny the first Sonic’s games definitely outshined the Mario games but uh Sonic games weren’t doing so hot until ya know frontiers and maybe the shadow game but that’s not coming until way next year but after seeing its trailer it’s probably gonna be good but anyways Mario was always consistent in quality even if it was mid it was consistent with some absolute bangers coming every once in a while but sonic games just kept on falling on its face over and over again. There wasn’t a good games for literal years. Although I do like sonic 1 gameplay more but I can see why people like Mario so much as it’s relaxing its easy and it’s fun for them
Honestly was expecting a video like this to happen but honestly, no matter what the outcome was, both sides did end up winning with this amazing peak fight, a Big W for both sides, gotta appreciate moro for all his hard work to satisfy both sides, i do hope he makes more appearances in death battle, such a talented man
Just because something isn't in the animation doesn't mean they didn't factor it into the result do you seriously expect them to include the metal virus on top of everything else in the episode
Not even just that, they directly explain that Bowser had a direct counter to it (transmuting the army back using his wand). Like why would they include something that would be instantly and perfectly countered? It's a waste
@@MindForgedManacletransmutation magic is ineffective against metal virus, if it was eggman would've put a end to all of it since he also has transmutation technologies. he literally explained in this video, you didnt watched it did you?
7:01 This is what I like to call "Yamcha Syndrome". Where a character is mocked for being a pushover or weak in their franchise but is actually considered really strong when in a vacuum, just like Yamcha. The only reason why Infinite is viewed as so is because that's just how strong Sonic, Shadow and their friends really are in comparison.
Yeah it's kind funny to me. Infinite's such a loser in his own series...that he's kind of the reason everyone in Sonic is Universal+ in base, because they're all within 2 or 3 degrees of chain scaling to this guy.
It's because of the higher gravity (which is calculated to be a lot stronger than earth's gravity) causing the thwomp to fall faster therefor having greater impact therefor defeating infinite. No, a thwomp alone cannot beat all sonic bosses.
@@Kirb_The_Menace Funny and SUPER forced since Infinite isn't actually stupid in thee game. He'd more likely have fired lasers, or summoned copies of villains with the phantom ruby to fight. Hell, he was ony messing with gravity in the game to mess with the Avatar and the resistence from Eggman's orders. They had him do the one thing that King Boo would be able to properly counter with it being out of character for him so that moment, while funny at first, really sours the result for me.
he wants to build a theme park so badly its the whole fucking reason the fight began "this territory is now the base for my upcoming eggmanland 2" he almost kills sonic and mass produces robots plus pisses on the moon plus threatens timelines SO HE CAN BUILD A THEME PARK
I think my biggest gripe is how they try to hand wave Time Eater by saying bowser could just wish everything back to normal or out of existence. 1) TE scales WAY above the Dream Stone, there's nothing to suggest Bowser could just wish people away or he would have done it a long time ago and 2) Time Eater does far more than just eat time. It completely displaces it. It could easily just bring every major sonic villain back at full power and multiple eggmans and there's just nothing he could do at that point. It is literally the ultimate Trump card without Sonic or Shadow around. He's not killing it, he's not wishing it away, and it's by far the most broken thing to have on your team.
Except Bowser literally says on screen IN THE GAME, that the Dream Stone gives him the power to wish away anything. DB shows it on the screen so you know what they're referring to, lol. That's the whole reason Bowser wanted the Dream Stone.
@MindForgedManacle and what exactly enlightened him to that actually being the case and not just some exaggerated statement? He's not eggman, he didn't sit there and study the thing to learn about it. If he really could just wish for truly anything, he literally couldn't have lost. But he did, so it's clearly not anywhere near as powerful as it's stated to be in game. It has no feats to back itself up. Time Eater on the other hand has the entirety of generations as his feat. You can't wish something that can choose whether or not something exists to not exist.
@KotalaGod he was literally going to wish mario and Luigi out of existence in the game itself, and probably did that because of how many times he's been betrayed or had things go wrong for him, he was only stopped because peach and starlow pulled a power out of nowhere in order to stop him, Once he absorbed the dream stone however, the rules changed, with the dream stone now a part of bowser, he didn't have to worry about his new power being taken from him any more, meaning he felt he could take the time to defeat the bros properly and have the satisfaction of beating them himself, And by the same logic you're using to debunk dreamy bowser, the time Eater could have just come back and finished sonic off at any time in sonic generations and should of just trapped him in white space like it did to his friends, but it didn't,
@@KotalaGod "and what exactly enlightened him to that actually being the case and not just some exaggerated statement?" Because everywhere throughout the game that is directly confirmed. Antasma says it (and he's working with Bowser), Dreambert says it, Eldream says it. It's not just Bowser, don't be absurd. they all say the same thing: It can grant any wish. "If he really could just wish for truly anything, he literally couldn't have lost" You know you can just look at the game and see how they actually avoided that: Peach and Starlow attack Bowser before he could use the Dream Stone. It's not that it didn't work, he says "Dream Stone! Disappear 'em" and then he's attacked. He only every inhales the fragments, and never uses the wish granting power in the Dreamy Form. "You can't wish something that can choose whether or not something exists to not exist." You realize that the Dream Stone can make something not exist, right? That's what Bowser was trying to do when peach and Starlow destroyed it from behind him.
Bro was basically and bro crying way to much like damn the sonic Fandom can't fucking accept logic that the mario verse simply is just to powerful for the sonic universe to take on
@hiddenflare6169 I'm apart of the sonic and mario fan- actually nevermind I'm never joining the sonic Fandom not after the art that is in both for the characters.
@hiddenflare6169 also it's not one person it's multiple people because everytime I go into any comment section for any mario character beating a sonic character then the sonic fans cry and complain and start saying everything in the book about how they should have won without looking into the facts for the mario characters.
I mean, Mario fans can actually say it with high ground of being right. Even most Sonic fans would agree even if reluctantly that the 2010’s were no easy time for Sonic while the "lows" of Mario games are not that bad. It’s like an American saying the US has better gastronomy than France. It’s straight up wrong.
Because it shows he biased. He is only scaling Eggman but NOT BOWSER. If you're going to scale in a vs battle, scale both characters instead of just one
One of my main gripes is that Metal Sonic is actually rather underpowered. Yes yes, we’ve seen the “he died because he broke his back carrying the team” joke a million times at this point, but he could have carried a lot more. Metal scales almost 1:1 with Archie Sonic in their basic forms. Neo Metal Sonic then beats Sonic, Super Sonic then beats Neo Metal, and Super Neo Metal scales up to Super Sonic for a large majority of stats. Super Neo Metal Sonic, the highest form seen in the comics and used in the battle, is way stronger than seen in this fight. Super Sonic can reach reality and even multiverse levels that can alter reality and reach speeds “beyond space and time”. Super Neo Metal Sonic can’t manipulate _reality_ the same way as Super Sonic, but he reaches the same “beyond space and time” speed and he can certainly destroy timelines with sheer energy attacks alone. That alone makes me wonder how his energy attack didn’t hold up again Bowser, who is a Galactic to Multigactic threat at most. What is theorized to be holding Super Neo Metal from tapping into Super Sonic’s chaos control. Chaos control is the ability to manipulate and control chaos energy, chaos energy representing the nature of the multiverse itself. It is often remembered as what lets Shadow teleport around. Super Sonic gets so much control over this that he threatened the entire multiverse in terms of sheer power and reality manipulating abilities. And what prevents Super Neo Metal from doing this is the fact he is a machine driven by cold logic, rather than the emotions and instincts necessary to let Chaos energy flow through you. And Metal Sonic, particularly his Super Neo form, is all about learning and evolving, and theory I’ve seen is that it won’t be long before his form allows him to evolve true sapience for emotions and instincts. Of course, this speculation and theory crafting has no bearing on the Death Battle.
Ok just pointing something out here. The Chaos Emeralds are NOT infinite, they are LIMITLESS. Implying that the limits of their energy capacity have yet to be truely found and measured. They can still be overtaxed and drained if met with a similar or greater power. Only the Master Emerald ITSELF is truely infinite, now if we were talking about the HYPER EMERALDS though…that is another story entirely, and this is coming from a die hard Sonic Fan.
@ then tell me, why can’t Sonic stay super forever? Why can they even be drained to a useless state if their power was infinite in total? (Source: Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Unleashed). Why do you think the word “Limitless” exists in the English dictionary if the Emeralds don’t follow the logic of having infinity energy as you so say?
@ sonic can stay in super for as long as he likes, in advance he was in it for weeks and sonic is the only character in the series with full control over them(besides knuckles) so silver, tails, metal sonic and shadow the emeralds go away on there own
@ you do understand how space works right? The farther you go from Earth the more noticeable the time difference is. A week on Mobius would be the time to fly to the final boss, fight it and fly back before the time limit runs out, which would only be a few minutes on Sonic's end.
Also wanna say something. You can very easily scale bowser to 5D. This isn't even wank. If i wanted to wank bowser. The dream stone makes him infinite Dimensional and High outer. In Mario galaxy, their is a location called the Matter Splatter Galaxy. Wich is very very explicity a 4th dimensional space. Both via the kanji. As well as how the space operates. So given how our universe opperates with 4 dimensions, 3 physical contained by the 4th dimension of time. The mario universe must be similar. With 5 dimensions in the universe, 4 Observable. And the 5th being more abstract caging in the other 4. And bowsers galaxy generator. Not just the black hole at the end of the game. Is stated to be able to destroy this universe easily.
@@XenoSonicFan I'm not the inventor of the scaling chain. From what I looked into. Its due to both string theory being present in Mario cosmology. And the dream stone being infinite Dimensional. Both Mario and bowser survived things that would have destroyed the entire Mario cosmology. So yeahm pretty simple.
Alphatale has string theory, in order for it to work properly it must feature a Higgs Particle. And the concept of Alternate Universes. Realistically Mario doesn't have anything with String Theory Dreamy Bowser actual has more anti feats then feats. There's proof for this when Dreamy Bowser got stomped by the base form of the brothers. Even then that makes no sense, unless base Mario is Outerversal, than that means Kirby is Boundless which he obviously isn't. As a fan of Kirby that's just wank.
That’s because they used the animation to show how both were different leaders, which ties into the post analysis and overall conclusion. Bowser was rushing in on the front lines, while Eggman sent his troops ahead from far away. It’s in character for both of them.
i dont get how it didnt kill those enemies behind him tho, it literally went past bowser and could easily destroy the planet, especially bc the emeralds
1:13 Let's compare the teams used, shall we: Bowser team: -Himself -Bowser Jr -Kamek -King Boo -Filler troops Eggman team: -Death Egg Robot -Death Egg -Egg Dragoon -Sage -Metal Sonic -Infinite -Filler troops So both teams were balanced in terms of amount of characters (and Eggman even had a slight edge in that aspect), giving more stuff to Eggman would be unfair. Also neither Bowser nor Sonic have innaccissble/inmeasurable speed, specially not when Sonic himself says he was too slow to save Tails in Lost World.
One of metal sonic's most consistent feats is it being on par with sonic's both game and lore wise, with an actual confirmation that sonic in sonic CD was fast enough to be forward and backwards in time and considering they also took feats from the archie comics means it's even faster so I kinda get how metal hardcarried this fight Also yall forgot how eggman managed to tame a monster who could just manipulate the entire flow of time and space in generations?
Metal Sonic is now nothing more than a jobber. Jobbed to Amy, jobbed to the Chaotix, jobbed to Shadow. He’s not equal with Sonic and hasn’t been since Heroes.
@@someguy9970Metal being weak now doesn’t matter. If metal was overwhelming strong a one point, like say how he is in Sonic Heroes, then they will use that version. They will only use his strongest version.
Alright here are my points as a Mario fan and also a recent Sonic fan 1) the metal virus can be removed through the warp topaz and super forms, so I am certain magic would easily not only counter it but also give Bowser huge advantages against Eggman who’s research is always based on research and limits of things rather than with Bowser’s and Kamek’s magic which outright did not need any prep nor experimentation to reach it’s limits without back firing even while considering how easily Eggman’s most ambitious ideas can back fire if he is not careful 2) King Boo is a ghost who can not only create whole dimensions like infinte but also has a lot of the same powers without the worry of a physical body, meaning infinite couldn’t restrain and since he was using magic instead of an unstable energy filled jewel it meant that he didn’t need to worry about any limits it could have, like needing to constantly focus while using or any physical limits it might have when it comes to using it (it’s not exactly defined thanks to Forces terrible writing that almost made me think I didn’t like Sonic so it’s best just to go off of what is shown rather than what the media at the time said) 3) Kamek can disable abilities and summon almost anything (including more minions just like the other magikoopas) and even buff other minions, so considering all of that it is not that much of a stretch to say he could teleport something small into bowser’s grasp like he does in Mario party, and the chance time bit was just there as a cute nod like Metal saying I’ll crush you or Eggman saying he has come to make an announcement, rather than saying chance time is an ability he always has since all feel canon even if they aren’t 100% to how it would happen for real. 4) He doesn’t have Starline because Starline was barely considered a part of the Eggman empire and was quickly dumped due to not listening to orders, versus Infinite who was the opposite and a major part even if he wasn’t seen in future games just like the hard boiled heavies, who were most likely not included due to how they wanted to focus the battle, speaking of which 5) Heavy king being fought by super sonic doesn’t mean he is on the same scale as perfect chaos, Solaris etc. it was most likely why that battle happened the way it did, was because the emeralds might trigger certain responses in the phantom ruby, that would explain why Metal only gets the ruby if you get all the emeralds first before fighting him 6) Sonic getting stronger every second is a bit of stretch, because just because something is said doesn’t mean it confirms scaling or is a feat in itself unless it is shown through scalable means, that would also make heavy king severely weaker looking back considering classic super sonic easily beat him and Eggman at the same time, and also proves why every newer mech being stronger than the last is a weak argument considering he also considers the slot machine that hurts himself is greatest creation in shadow the hedgehog 7) it is really dumb your last point considering you said it was just them being sappy, when most of bowser’s army is based around working as a team to become stronger, Kamek buffs allies, the elite trio and other minion teams will revive each other to keep the fight going through 1-ups and more minion back up, they can cover their own weaknesses more than Eggman’s army, and they can even formulate a lot more strategies on the fly a majority of badniks and even some of Eggman’s generals couldn’t do as much when the battle got hectic, which ensure that their would be more surviving troops on Bowser’s side near the end which is where both armies would need the leg up the most since both have debating attacks that could easily wipe out a lot members of both sides when they hit. 8) the chaos emeralds may have unlimited energy, but it doesn’t mean that you can instantly do anything with, unless you have a super form or the right machine (something even Eggman struggles to figure out) plus you can argue unlimited energy just refers to the as a power source/enabler rather than what they can do especially since even with them Super Sonic still has to put a lot of effort in order to win his fights so why doesn’t he just use the unlimited power to rewrite the universe to not have that foe which is something both the wonder flower, the dream stone, and debatably the power stars can do, something’s bowser can utilize more easily thanks to his magic while Eggman often has to build around using stuff like the emeralds which limit them.
It's like you didn't watch the explainer at the end. Eggman's trump cards weren't ignored. They either wouldn't be enough to progress the battle past a tie, or in the case of the Phantom Ruby, would be an Eggman loss that still required only giving Eggman weeks of prep-time and not Bowser. It doesn't seem complicated and in the DB itself, they don't want to add big abilities that can be instantly undone or tied by the other side: Wonder Flower > Phantom Ruby. WF is an actual universal reality warper and has a shorter charge time. PR->Light Man is a planetary-level perception controller and requires weeks of charging on a PR prototype gem. Controlling perception on a planetary scale is an inarguable loss to a universal reality warper. The other Eggman trump cards are reality warpers, but Bowser has 3 of those (Wonder Flower, Star Rod and Dream Stone). So as long as both sides are treated equivalently (either getting only 1 such trump card each or getting them all), it's at best a tie. Like why would they add the Paradox Prism if the Pure Hearts are a perfect counter? What's the point of giving Bowser the Star Rod if Eggman could counter it as Nightmare Eggman? DBs that can only logically end as a tie should not be common. Phantom Ruby is just a straight loss though. But without one side having an obvious deficiency or limitation, a battle between universal reality warpers has no obvious winner. Which negates the point of having a Death Battle between them to begin with. I mean, if Bowser had lost this despite the same abilities being used, I wouldn't complain that he wasn't given the Wonder Flower. Because a universal reality warper will obviously win against a non-reality warper. But Bowser wasn't given reality warping here either, so it just comes across as you complaining that Eggman lost.
Problem: The wonder flower vs the phantom ruby debate are only about range. The two of then work warping reality and the phantom ruby created and infinite sized world in forces. Saying "planet level" as if it couldn't do more than that is plain wrong. Besides that Eggman's weapons aside from hax are also stronger when you include scaling. The robots from rush hit harder than any of Bowser's objects, the dreamy stone failed Bowser when he took enough damage and he is also outmatched in speed so Eggman will pull up his wincons faster than him
@@Unremarkable6969 Boooooooo!! Your mom! Boooooooo!! You're mid! Boooooooo!! You're comeback is terrible! Booooooooo!! Go cry over your mom's ashes! Boooooooooo!! You Sonic man child! Boooooooooo!!
And it's honestly a bit frustrating because Eggman _could_ have helped. He just needed to come down in one of his robots stronger than the Final Egg Blaster, something with scaling comparable to Metal. Like, at least the Egg Salamander. No no. Giant Eggman Robot from the movie.
Good points but i disagree with sonic having immeasurable speed. I think him fixing time in sonic generations is just him running through levels again to restore time i dont think hes running fast enough to restore time
Yeah most likely but Super Sonic would definitely have immeasurable because of the Solaris fight. The data book states that the trio fight in the past, present, and future. This would require either each member of the trio to travel to different points in time to fight Solaris, or the trio can straight up attack through time. Both would require immeasurable speeds and Solaris is able to shoot beams throughout time. Time eater also fights super sonic which would scale to Solaris. As well as fighting him in an infinite time stream at the end of time outside of reality. We see parts of the Sonics world fly within the tube and Time Eater is able to effect the time within it. Both of these feats would give Super Neo and Time eater immeasurable speed
I think he is immeasurable due to the fact his prior enemies were legit lightspeed or MFTL so yeah it's more consistent that way. And I personally think sonic using his speed to restore life plays into the god of the wind vibe. And is well done. To say a plumber who somehow is able to destroy a evil dinosaur with destructive powers but can't work a pipe better than luigi.
1:13 because animation is expensive. And also because the only reason this fight is an army fight at all, is because Moro essentially went, "Hold my Beer" if the fight was a traditional 1 on 1. They absolutely would have invluded stuff like the spatual displacement trap in the animation.
Yeah that's just a given. Game Sonic characters especially have it the worst, Archie Sonic characters have it a bit better but it's still not great, like at all
15:10 You can debunk it by saying most of Eggmans army works like a hive mind under sage, who would have created millions of Battle plans for what ever Bowsers toops try, meaning they would have perfect coordination, the only exceptions being Metal sonic, infinite and non-robotic minions.
That requires Sage to KNOW what all their abilities are. Sure, she could theorize, but not without concrete proof...which is kinda hard to do during a chaotic war.
@@colvamoon6962 @RedRance69 you both know that she can update her battle plans as the fight goes on? it's not like she's not gonna know what's happening she's an hyper advanced ai who formed a plan to take down the embodiment of death and destruction, she won't get overwhelmed and confused like a human, she'll be learning and adapting the battle plan as the battle goes on, Like how She updated the battle plan against the end, as the game went on she updated and adapted till she created a plan to beat the end, and it worked.
@@RedRance69 And it still doesn't change the fact the egg army is a hive mind, so there won't be any form of infighting or confusion, they will all be updating and processing this info at the same time, sending their data to Sage and the egg net to update the battle plan. that's how Ai work, the more data they get, the better they get at something.
Bro, half of this video is just whining on "why didn't they include this", instead of just going over the scaling first and saying that they underestimated certain equipment that Eggman had. Its also weird that you wish to say that you didn't want to get into Bowser's scaling here, but wish to say that Eggman wins, that is a coward plus you can't really call it a debunk at this point considering that this is all done in pure bias to Bowser. Besides it also not like you tried to stick by that statement in not scaling Bowser, since you still wanted to try and make an assertion about Bowser losing and that Eggman would win. At this point why even bother making the video if you're just not going to even cover the Mario side of things in regards to scaling, not like you need to answer as even you yourself admitted that you didn't know much, but still want to say Bowser wins talk about massive cognitive dissonance.
They did in fact mention the egg salamander and the fact that the Chaos Emeralds and Sol Emeralds are universal threat Yes I understand they didn’t say it directly but we can’t expect LITERALLY EVERYTHING they’ve ever done to be said in words or be featured in the animation Sometimes we just have to let the black boxes and arsenal screens speak for themselves Also a personal nit pick. Your comment of “proceeds to not use this in the fight” goes both ways because you know who else wasn’t in the fight? The Koopalings That was an epic edit of Infinite though so props on that
Tbh, powerscaling sucks and everyone should already know this. Both fandoms want this character to win or that character to win. Just do it yourself if you're gonna burn someone else for doing what you want to do. They're obviously trying, and mind you, it depends on the author, writer, whatever you wanna call em. It depends on them to decide who wins.
@@ImperatoChri I know, I don't say he can't access it with Jr's help. What I'm talking about is that I thought Bowser couldn't control himself as Fury Bowser, not that he couldn't become Fury Bowser
Bro literally said that Mario games are mid.If he has an Mario games.Or read up on the lore.Don't make a deep bunk video unless you know both sides have a good day stop being child
Guess I'm a child for disliking linear platformers with mid side scrolling. Tbh I liked Galaxy and Odyssey but man don't sit here and tell me that the New Super Mario Bros and Mario Wonder aren't the same when they clearly are.
@@Unremarkable6969No.its the fact you are only scaling Eggman but not bowser and not seeing Bowser was also lowballed and didn't use his entire arsenal as well showing how biased you were
Bro here I am thinking, why didn’t they just make this fight a tie? Both are proven to have feats that are almost equal to one another. Couldn’t they have just set this up for a sequel between their troops with the aftermath being both Eggman and Bowsers death?
Because making it a tie is boring and defeats the point of having a DB. It can be funny like one. They've already done it before. This was a perfectly fine setup and had a conclusion that made sense.
@@MindForgedManacle Fair enough. I just miss those sort of battles that end up in the destruction of both sides. It could've set up into a battle where after the two mains are down, The minions and sidekicks pick up where they left off. My personal opinion which could be wrong.
I thought that both would probably die and then in the future could arise something like "sage and the titans vs bowser jr and his brothers" something like that that could have some normal ending
I loved this fight. Both are my to franchises, with me liking Sonic a bit more. I didn’t care how won but in the aftermath, I did kinda want Eggman to win. This is really close, but I do wish they showed more stuff from analysis for both sides, but especially Eggman. Also, with how close the matchup is, I do wish they went over some of the ways Eggman could’ve won, as they really only went over bowser’s counters. Anyways, good vid, I’m surprised you didn’t really touch on sage. Ps: peak animation, infinite got sold, and my goat Metal carried.
To be honest the alternative scenarios did show us what would happen if Eggman brought out some other tools, plus let's not down play Mario scaling since they don't give a fuck about it whiich leads to the most absurd feats you can imagine. But if I can say something about the whole thing, Sage was not that big of a help in Eggman's side in hindsight when compared to Bowser's side (Kamek, King Boo, Junior and Bowser himself had ways of breaking out of cyberspace. Also her thousands of scenarios can be proven wrong as they mentioned in the post analysis)
Should also mention that outside of Bowser Jr none of the Koopalings made appearances in this battle. Also Bowsers Warships and Clowncars were also not really used.
Honestly this fight kinda reminds me of Saitama vs Popeye. Both of them were gag characters but Popeye had Toon Force which allowed him to just say "screw the rules of reality". While I do enjoy the Mario games, they definitely have some border-line, if not full-blown Toon Force shenanigans. Also before anyone says I'm coping or a Sonic fan, I actually agree with Death Battle's analysis on this fight, I'm just pointing out how ludicrous some of feats the Marioverse pulls off are.
@@topace1038 koopalings were part of the fight in the storyboard, Moro confirmed that they were cut due to budget as their scene would have cost too much for how short it was.
Time to debunk an entire video's scaling LMFAO. (before we get into this, if you try to respond with something like "holy shit yapathon," or "aint no way a bowser pfp is talking." please let it be known your obvious bias in this debate, and the fact that you are intentionally trying to imply that Sonic games are better even though that has literally almost never been the case in quality control.) 1. The reasons things like The Nega Wisp Armor, Spacial Displacement Trap, and Metal Virus didn't show up is because Bowser has a counter to all of them, they literally state this in the end of the video, these things can, and WILL go wrong against Bowser. 2. I agree with the Death Egg Robot statement, but they were calculating the average force of Eggman's tech, the Death Egg Robot in forces is a Super Badnik, something to be considered the peak of his army, a tank to him if you will. Your argument is that his machines are way stronger, no shit. They never said that it wasn't. 3. They literally bring up the Egg Salamander, and Egg-Wizard in his arsenal section of the video, they specifically say that its apart of his arsenal. The scaling still was in favor of Bowser, it didn't have to be included in the fight, the fight is literally made for the purpose of being flashy, the calculations between arsenals and trump cards, and feats. Happens before the Animation is made, because they need to decide a winner. These things, WERE accounted for. They simply lost in the war of attrition against The Koopa Kingdom. 4. The Egg-Dragoon's speed is entirely irrelevant to Bowser. The Egg-Dragoon being superior to the Egg-Wizard literally means nothing in the context of the Death Battle, they established (like ive stated.) That it would lose, along with the egg-salamander, and egg-wizard. During the calculations phase of the actual death battle. Let's go onto the actual scaling then? First of all; Tails never states that Sonic can actually go at the pace of space and time, he states the acceleration is what causes space and time to be restored, that is not an immeasurable sonic speed feat, though they do exist and I will list them. Pre-Unleashed infact, Sonic states, "Time may fly, but I'm even faster!" in Sonic & The Secret Rings, implying hes faster then time itself. Which is further confirmed in future games. Generations at-least confirms that his acceleration can fuck with time and space, not that hes faster then both, that is an immeasurable speed feat. let's get into why it doesn't fucking matter: Bowser was traversing all of Dream Depot and wiping out each dream one by one--which are universes--casually, as evidenced by how he's talking about his plan and such, before destroying Dream Depot itself. Misstar then says "at this rate, he'll destroy the dream worlds one by one." She goes on to say that Mario must protect everyone's dreams. This means Bowser was casually moving at a rate that would allow him to destroy an uncountable set of uncountably infinite universes. Not to mention; said Universes can be conceptually in a higher plane, It's stated in Dream Team by Dreambert that inside of dreams, he can "Sense a higher plane of consciousness.". Which confirms that the Dream Depot, which is contingent to all dreams, would be able to create Higher Levels of World, dreams and wishes have no form, and are immaterial, hence they cannot qualify for dimensional transcendence. Making it a feat of Conceptual Transcendence, and Bowser was casually destroying the entire conceptually transcending dream depot with his speed and strength alone. To continue, The Dream and Dark Stone can grant any wish, scaling off of the dream depot, and high levels of consciousness, this would mean they have meta wish granting hax, that Bowser possessed when he was Dreamy Bowser. so here's some proof of three things, his physical stats, the fact the egg-dragoon could not fucking surpass him or speedblitz him, and the fact the dream stone and star rod are busted as fuck. 5. The didn't use the hardboiled heavies because the animation was made off of what was ment to look flashy, they were again. accounted for, and considered weaker. 6. Again, if Metal Sonic has 'immeasurable speed' Bowser is conceptually transcending him in all sense of the word. What kind of correlation is them flashing another screenshot while explaining something different mean base scales. LOL 7. If you highball the phantom ruby, you COULD get it to 1-A.(Boundless scaling is actual fucking cap LMFAO.) The issue with that is; The DREAM Depot is 1-A. And Bowser is infinitely superior to that shit, in Mario Party 5. He has gotten way stronger, he canonically has accelerated developement. he is literally starchild. 8. Lowballing infinite is crazy, in a Sonic glaze video too, he'd scale to Modern Sonic during Forces, who again, COULD be scaled to 1-A. Infinitely superior to Erazor Djinn, who does have 1-A Scaling, aswell as Maginaryland scaling. Even WITH that, However. Bowser still fucking soloes, he has conceptual transcendence, and dimension transcendence because of Cutout from Paper Mario, When Mario activates his Cutout technique, he transcends the boundaries of space and time alongside dimensions, and travels to a realm outside of their universe where he can cut out pieces of the background via access to transdimensional scissors that allow him to uncover secrets via this cutting. This would also imply Mario transcends dimensionality through this technique, since if he’s transcending the very boundaries of space and time (alongside multiple dimensions), he must be transcending anything that exists within/is bound by space and time, and since dimensionality (the totality of dimensions) is comprised of spatial extents dimensionality itself would be within space and time, and thus within its boundaries, logically implying that Cutout transcends dimensionality [Beyond-Dimensional Physiology, Dimensional Travel, Spatial Manipulation, Background Manipulation]. The space that Mario performs Cutout on is implied to be apart of the cosmic ether of the universe. also scaling the universe to 1-A. as the realm’s ether is within the universe (certain parts of the Cutout Realm lie within the universe, which are interacted with from areas of the realm outside of the universe). Bowser effortlessly scales to these things, those scissors aren't even considered an actual threat to him. Let alone the strongest artifact hes surpassed. 9. Again, lowballing the sonicverse is crazy. The Time Eater COULD do those things, its just that Bowser is infinitely superior. 10. Infinite IS stronger then Solaris, and Time Eater. He's just NOT stronger then Bowser LMFAO. 11. The reason they didn't give it to him is because it isn't something he'd have on hand in an actual battle, he'd have to specifically charge it to fight Bowser for literal weeks and even then Bowser fucking trounces it and moves on to the next problem. If we're arguing that shit can just be given to certain characters, Bowser shouldn't have even been able to get scratched this fight, because with the Star Rod he wished to be unstoppable. Comparing Lightman, a form that requires charge, to Chance Time, which is something Kamek can deadass just do, along with all of his other busted abilities, (reality warping, mind control, paperization, and raw magic,) 12. Omnipresence, CAN be scaled to speed, if your everywhere all at once, you are everywhere, you can exist anywhere at any point, instantly. Which is why it could be scaled to speed. Again, even if he's Immeasurable speed. It's irrelevant, they even state this in the death battle. That speed wouldn't help Eggman LMFAO. 13. Bowser doesn't have inaccessible speed, he has IRRELEVANT speed. Which is a tier that is beyond immeasurable, he's beyond concepts, such as distance, aspatial, or atemporal. He's comparable to Mario, who can run across Superspace Bridge, superspace is a space of infinitely many dimensions postulated to contain actual space-time and all possible spaces. And Mario casually jogged through it, this just adds to the cosmology, since Superspace Bridge is a casual galaxy. Also, Bowser scales off M-Power. Aesthetic details indicate string theory such as lineland, not to mention equations are literally seen apart of dimensions in super paper mario. The Void WAS going to destroy mathematical dimensions. Scaling to 5D is chump scaling, and again lowballing the Sonicverse LMFAO. 14. "Bowser scales to 4D at best." This along with the fact you've admitted that you haven't actually tried to find shit related to his scaling just proves everyones point, you are bias against one side and have no clue about the other. Bowser is literally a dimensional transcending character. 15. "Spatial displacement is never implied to have such a weakness," your right, it's not implied too. The comic literally shows that it fucked up and didn't do what it was ment to do, which is what they're stating. Their is a difference between technology that transmutates and magic, Bowser could literally reverse the process, and It's obvious Eggman didn't have any forcesight to do so, that's literally the entire point of why Starline betrayed him. Meanwhile, Bowser. Could literally turn them back at any point. "Even beyond that, the metal virus isn't that easy to get rid of." Yes it is, to characters who can turn any other character into anything else. yes it is, not to mention if you actually did you research you'd know the Metal Virus could literally be danced away, (DDR Mario Mix has subatomic manipulation, Bowser literally has that power in his soul. If Bowser wanted to get rid of it, it's deadass as simple as dancing.)
16. "Am I gonna get unironic comments from Mario fans saying that this is supposed to be taken completely seriously?" Yes, yes you are. because if you did your research, you'd know that it WAS ment to be taken in context, the entire Minigame is dedicated to Bowser proving it, he makes monsters out of massive chemicals, not to mention; Bowser canonically leads a hyper specific army according to SMB3's manual, he has built shit like the Dark Matter Reactor, which casually erased things from existence, the Galaxy Reactor, which can recreate the entire universe several times over. (It's stated to decide the Fate of the Universe, twice, both ingame and in the manual, Luigi also says that if Bowser isn't stopped the universe falls into his claws.) He built a space station that can casually chill next to the sun, (not impressive, but Eggman has built worse LMFAO.) He canonically has a fucking doctorate, he created a bubble machine that could trap even Mario, who again, scales off all of this shit I JUST stated. (I don't care about your Mario VS Sonic debunking video, fyi. LMFAO.) 17. "The only thing that can counter the phantom ruby is the phantom ruby itself," yeah. In the fucking verse? The Star Rod is superior to the star spirits who guard and created the dream depot, which again, could be scaled to 1-A casually. The Star Rod is so strong it even beat Bowser, Bowser could literally one shot that thing, even with its highball 1-A Infinitely superior scaling, Mario's cosmology is just more specific. 18. The reason they didn't include lightman was because it would be impossible for the Doctor to have him, same reason they didn't include shit like Dark Paint Bowser (different from Fury bowser.) 19. The Chaos emeralds have infinite power, but so do fucking stars LMFAO, Stars have regularly been able to create shit on the level of Galaxies, baby stars (luma's) literally ARE galaxies, not only would stars be able to counter chaos emeralds, they have created Big Boo's, who in mario 64's manual are stated to be extradimensional threats that Mario casually sends packing, stars also created dimensions with time and space, demonstrated by tick tock clock being reflected by time, Stars can create entire universes, (Worlds= Universes in Mario, similarly to the Sonicverse.), Mario deadass says that Bobomb Battlefield is identical to his world. The Grand Star is almost infinitely superior to regular stars or the big star, it would effortlessly scale past the chaos emeralds, not to MENTION their in abundance. Like you've stated, "no matter how many finite things you have, you will never be able to counter an infinite thing." except those 'finite things' are also infinite in power and have layered transcendence LMFAO. 20. Eggman has literally proved he is willing to take things on a universal scale, the reason he doesn't is because they have to keep it grounded to Sonic's world LMFAO. The conquering thing doesn't make sense at all,
Ok, I get it. Egg man was a little misrepresented. He still would have lost. Did you forget the part where bowser could alter reality across the universe.
Honestly for powers saying that eggman needed to swap in between suits, I believe that he could pull an iron man with sage and have her pilot it (I mean he says she can in frontiers and there’s no reason to think she can’t do it herself) so even then it’s a draw as they can use the powers to their full capacity
If mine memoey is corect in sonic 3 he put some egg robot's to control sone od his old boss robot's so I gess he could just put one of them to control the robot's
@@colvamoon6962ik but with her aiding Sonic and even piloting a titan to help Sonic it’s not out of possibility for her to pilot any of the more higher end robots, like the one in rush
Any chance you had of appearing unbiased went out the window the moment you wrote off all the Mario games as 'mid'. I love both the classic Mario AND Sonic games and that was just petty of you.
No matter how powerful Bowser is with feats,magic,scaling,durability....I'll still always love Eggman no matter what. Since childhood he was my favorite villain & I'm not only like Eggman than other character in Sonic universe. He always makes me smile whenever he appears & he never goes away. Bowser couldn't win without Jr. Or changing time either. Bowser literally died twice,once by Neo Metal Sonic & again by the Death Egg Laser Blast. If Sage in the future obtains magical abilities,somehow bringing Eggman back to life & call it the Egg-shell skeleton or counter Jr.s wand with (Egg-Wand or something) he could turn Bowser,Jr & his army into scrap metal. I love Eggman no matter what & death battle isn't the end & be all or cannon. As Canonicaly Eggman & Bowser are friends & took the London signts together. GG the Eggman Empire-
Yes, but you could also say that without metal Sonic Eggman would have lost much earlier. And he didn't die twice. The first time was only a "knockout" and the second time... is it really a death when you become Dry Bowser? I'm not sure about that😅
@Nunchchucks Not true. Neo Metal Sonic went right through his body & Bowser was down. Jr had to revive him. & that blast from the laser ripped right through the fury form into the bones. The whole "knockout" may not even be reliable anyway since all we know is Eggman has multiple decoys and just left entirely. It's pointless to discuss this as what's done is done & I could care less. As for the skeleton thing, hence why I mentioned there should now be a "Egg skeleton" version of Eggman & Egg wand to counter Kamek & Jr Sega has already made Eggman turn super,used a nightmare version of him,may as well make a third form where he's a cartoony skeleton body of him but still has his mustache. It could very well happen. Metal Sonic definitely did carry the fight & made the fight last longer, but the point still stands. If Metal wasn't added, then they would have just had Sage bring out all the titans. That's all I'm saying & I'm not going to get into it.
@@PokyDaBesto what random cenarios tho? I see valid ones, some more wow then others but still valid, cant people question the results just because the animation was peak?
@@Kurouso2099 look at the third pharagraph of the comment (cant really tell if its serious or if its a joke) and yea the animation in this db is absolute peak, my favourite one so far
I sided with Bowser at the beginning, but even after he won I still felt that Eggman and his team were limited on what they can do. Not to mention the song lyrics and cover immediately made people realize that Bowser was going to win at the end
How were they limited? They had the Phantom Ruby and all the Emeralds from the jump. If they got any more than that, then they'd be limiting Bowser since he wasn't given any reality warping items he's had.
@@MindForgedManacle The Phantom Ruby prototypes, the Sonic Shuffle items if we're going by DB logic, the Power of the Stars, and the list likely includes more.
@@riomo4076 You have to be specific. They explained why they didn't give Eggman the prototypes (they're hard countered by the Wonder Flower, which is a universal reality warper). What Sonic Shuffle item? Chance Time is literally just Kamek using his teleportation power, it's not a board game mechanic thing. Again, they had the ruby and all the Emeralds from the start. Bowser had, what, 1 Grand Star? Come on dude, limited my foot.
@@MindForgedManacleThey also argued that the Phantom Ruby only warps perception, When its got more than that (teleportation and warping). The fake ruby at the end of Forces alone created a literal sun, as well as warping character to a different realm. Also they wouldve given Bowser more of the stars since they mentioned multiple existing while unfortunately only the emeralds are limited to just seven. I also feel like they kinda downplayed Eggman but I still agree with Bowser winning
@@Linear_Line_423 They downplayed Eggman but still Time Eater just counters many things since: -Its a primordial entity which exists in nothingness which makes it immune to any means of Magic -Put the Chaos Emeralds in a limbo in Gens meaning it could do the same for The Stars -Took Super Forms to harm it but still was able to harm said Super Forms -Is able to bring back past Villains and potentially pit Bowser against em -Brought back Mephiles or if we bring back The Time Stones which Eggman could also have...meaning he is far superior with Time Hax. He could also have The Egg Wizard which would also mean an instant win. If you don't know the Egg Wizard search it up. Its basically what Dreamy Bowser is supposed to be. Also, Nightmare Eggman kinda has no counter
Honestly, I feel like Death Battle said it best themself, Eggman feels more grounded in reality (As close to grounded in reality a balding man fighting a Mach speed hedgehog can be, anyways.) while Bowser feels more cartoonishly strong.
good video! i've always been a supporter of the idea that characters like infinite, sage (when piloting supreme), and super neo metal should be stronger than solaris with accurate scaling, so it's nice to see that acknowledged for once. having multiple super sonic-tier creations on eggman's side made bowser's win hard to justify for me.
@@Uesr2004D yes Time Eater affected by multiple timelines, The chaos emerald that has shown multiple times to protect the user From getting erase to being affected by magic, it will continue to make you stronger solaris was erasing timelines and universes but could not effect supersonic Shadow and silver
Man, I am a Sonic fan and even I can see that you're so salty lmao. I do agree with them that Bowser likely wins in this scenario, I do in fact think they did a pretty good job, because this fight never was about physical stats, it was about who had the most haxiest abilities and armies (Yes this was confirmed to be an army fight before the episode even released so... Gotta Go Inform Yourself), since both could scale to basically the same amount of power and immesuarable speeds (no, I won't take your take of "Mario scaling only to 4D" as granted since they are ways to get him way above that). I disagree with your opinion, but I won't be an asshole bout it, after all, we all have different opinions on these kind of subjective debates don't we?
Not only are there ways to get Mario characters at 5D or more with generous scaling but using the same bad faith often used by Sonic fans would stop the Sonic verse at 4D too.
Death Battle just loves to downplay Sonic Characters Fr, first in DK vs knuckles, they didn't even allow knuckles to use his super form (even though that was clearly his trump card) In sonic vs mario, they claim sonic is only hypersonic What's next Wario can beat Shadow the hedgehog?? 💀 They either heavily nerf a character or just straight up gaslight you when it comes to their feats
Tbf, DK and Knuckles didn’t get super forms because like in the first MvS vid, they said their power up’s and transformations counter each other And just like Luigi Vs Tails. Both fights only gave them items that was unique to them As for Sonic Not being faster than light.. yeah that was bad research back then. But at least they believe it now
I really want to like this episode of Death Battle, I really do. The animation & music is so good, the fight it depicts is epic, and frankly the community is so generally wholesome about this episode that I really don't want to bring everybody down because I feel they guy was rooting for lost without being depicted at his best... ...But I don't think this comment section will care: so man does it _suck_ that Eggman wasn't depicted at his best! I mean for one, the analysis and stats only really touched on base level Sonic stuff, not really touching on any Super Sonic scaling besides one Speed feat; and it wasn't even his best finite speed feat. (Sure they didn't touch of Paper Mario scaling either; but that just means this is like Mario vs Sonic 2018 again, where they were both town/city level. Not as bad a downplay, but both were downplayed and not taken at their best nonetheless, so stat comparisons kind of end up meaningless). They gave Eggman intelligence but didn't really show that working for him by planning anything clever or using his resources better than Bowser. They just kind of wrote off a lot of abilities at the Eggman empire's disposal (such as Metal's bio-data copying) if Bowser had a counter, but would let anything Bowser had be considered without a hitch (such as Kamek's ability sealing) even if Eggman had a counter (like the Chaos Emeralds' restoration powers). A lot of powers they had in common was considered to cancel each other out, even if Eggman's were better (such as having better immeasurable speed arguments or superior time manipulation.) And they didn't really consider what I feel is Eggman's biggest advantage in this fight: the fact that he can play all of his trump cards at once using Egg-Robo pilots. Like sure, they've proven base Koopa Kingdom beats base Eggman Empire, and yes, Bowser can theoretically one-shot the Time Eater _or_ Super Eggman with the right counter in hand...but what about both at once? What if they were accompanied by the Egg Wizard, Egg Salamander, & Metal Overlord? Maybe even Supreme? How about if we gave Sage all 4 Titans? All while Metal makes actual use of the Chaos Emeralds' powers while Sage makes use of Cyber Space? Those alternate scenarios showed Bowser at his best could take out, eh...10~20% of the best Eggman could've put forth, but could he have faced all of that? Doesn't feel like it. Feels like Madara vs Aizen; where the loser's best options/powers isn't taken into consideration, leaving the impression the winner would get totally destroyed if they were. And even accuracy aside; it just sucks that neither Eggman, nor Bowser, got to use their best stuff in the actual fight. We only saw a snippet of Super Eggman getting one-tapped (by something he really should have been able to counter) and that was it. When are we ever going to get another chance at seeing the Eggman Empire at it's best? In a Wily rematch? That solar-level at best punk? Sigh. Well maybe one day someone will make a big Eggman vs Bowser army fight animation where Eggman actually wins and it'll make up for him getting downplayed so bad here. A man can hope.
About king boo: The reason why it wouldn't work because the phantom ruby very specifically targets the perception of someone. Causing it to fuck with one's mind and think it's real when it really isn't. This is even the case for his gravity manipulation. But even if we give him the gravity manipulation, the issue here is that it wouldn't effect king boo. He's a ghost that doesn't fall under the laws of gravity. It’s stated multiple times in Sonic forces how the Ruby targets your brain Plus the second the phantom ruby activates, King boo is gonna EXACTLY know how it works as it works very similar if not exactly like his magic.
The absolute copium I am witnessing, is magnificent. It's also js, blatantly wrong. I could explain it to you if you'd like. Since you clearly couldn't find any actual evidence on why you scaled mario's side entirely wrong.
Considering this guys favorite is infinite, he prolly got butthurt that he got one shotted by a thwomp, edgy ass guy bruh. This guy is absolutely pathetic, getting mauled in his own comment section, almost feel bad cause he keeps doing it to himself at this point. His bias is through the roof, now im just assuming that infinite is his favorite since he made a whole edit about him.
Also they made the chaos emeralds have less power then it has (the chaos emeralds can let the user wish for one thing as well as the master emerald which they didn't use for some reason)
Oh no that stuff isn’t Eggman copyrighted nor has Eggman shown he owns any of that after Frontiers. If a game later does show that then fine, but right now there’s nothing.
To be fair, as a Mario fan who roughly agrees with Death Battle there, (you could argue DB lowballed them both but you can almost always do that with them) I actually enjoyed this video. It’s rare to see Sonic fans actually elaborating arguments instead of insulting those who do not agree or using fallacies like "Sonic is more serious" as if it meant anything from my experience. Here are some points I kind of don’t agree with: - You mention that Bowser doesn’t have arguments for immeasurable speed when he clearly does. Since you mentioned that scaling to Solaris, a being explicitly above space and time, makes a character capable of immeasurable speed, Bowser should also reach that level via being comparable to Super Dimentio who can destroy reality as we know it and explicitly scales above space and time too. - For the Metal Virus, I don’t really agree that it bypasses reality warping as it is not shown to do so in the comic itself. (The characters capable of reality warping seems to just not think about it.) Even if I did agree, Bowser would only need a wish from the Dream Stone or Star Rod to avoid that problem for both him and his armies. - I think you definitively overhyped Infinite in your analysis. Sure, we can argue about it maybe being a result of Sonic Forces’ ass writing but it cannot be denied that Infinite is still a base Sonic victim in the game. We need a lot of statement fallacies and generous assumptions to even get him at the Egg Dragoon level. - The statement about Sonic getting faster every second is most likely an hyperbole and not a fact and this is why. If you argue that Sonic gets exponentially faster and thus stronger every second, then classic Sonic would be beyond fodder to modern Sonic during Sonic Generations when they are portrayed to be of roughly similar power levels. (You can argue modern Sonic is stronger to which I would agree but the gap cannot be that big or else classic Sonic wouldn’t even be relevant to the Time Eater.) Classic Sonic cannot have outgrown Time Eater either as he will grow into modern Sonic that will defeat him with the help of his past self one day. They also forgot a few points for Bowser making his win more likely: - The Retry Clock allows Bowser to restart a fight with the knowledge acquired from his last try. Bowser would have multiple tries at beating Eggman even if he fails a few times making his win cons more and more likely. - I am pretty sure that the point DB was making is that the Chaos Emeralds may have infinite power in the sense that they cannot run out of energy but they still have a somewhat limited maximal output that would be around that of the Grand Stars so while they could outlast the Grand Stars in the long run, they would take too much time to do so for it to really matter. Think of as how the cyborgs from DBZ have infinite ki reserves and never get tired but would still get demolished by Cell. - They didn’t mention Bowser’s feat of being amongst the crew which defeated Super Dimentio. These are some of the strongest arguments for Bowser’s immeasurable speed scaling and transcendence of space and time making it impossible for beings like the Time Eater to easily get rid of him. - I think what they were trying to convey with Bowser’s army is that their reach and scale is much bigger. (Thus the conquest comparison) We have no concrete proof that Eggman wields enough robots to exert power amongst all of the known universe while Bowser made himself emperor of the universe twice in a short time and his army was in control of those conquests. They also had an advantage in unpredictability taking into account the fact that they can use Mario power ups.
Of course...because thoroughly explaining how this fight could've gone another way after team Eggman clearly got wanked in many ways *totally* defines crying. Just another ignorant rage baiter you are.
@@Jason-k1n Just because for the most part I agree with this debunk doesn't mean that I'm "coping". I also don't think that the most obvious Gintama simp is in any position to talk about my pfp.
Bro what it's a video how is he crying dogs just explaining on how he thinks eggman would have won this fight can a man not have opinion on something without it being classified as crying 😕
Not exactly. The ruby has consistently shown to be able to negate/counter high power house gems like the master emerald and chaos emeralds. Gems which can alter reality or negate reality manipulation exactly like the wonder flower and so on. Yet despite this only the phantom ruby is consistently shown to the best counter for the ruby itself.
Kamek having chance time isn’t something wrong Miyamoto itself said that all of Mario is canon (except Mario hotel) and kamek stick can just teleport things by himself or king boo (and even regular boo’s) can become intangible grab object and become intangible with the object itself so stealing things is a good and great wincon Also since e Mario cosmology is so weird with potential infinite multiverses or hyper verses is scaling is actually close to sonic
this was a cool ass video, i appreciate watching stuff like this that clearly takes a lot of info and showcases it in a clear and appreciable way. props
To clarify!
When I asked why Eggman's trump cards weren't factored into the main scenario, I am not referring to the animation, done by Moro.
Animation, especially now, is expensive and time consuming, I completely understand why things like the Time Eater and the Metal Virus could not be included for the main fight animation.
What I am referring to is the over all conclusion they came to, because beings like Infinite and Neo Metal, and game enders like Spatial displacement and the Phantom Ruby, seemed to be swept under the rug during the final section.
The reason alternate scenarios weren't used in fights was due to budget
@@Unremarkable6969 Bowser's side also had way more things that could have been brought up but weren't included, pretty sure King Boo got glossed over for the most part aside from field control. Heck he could have possessed Metal and there wouldn't be any way for him to counter it, from my own research I couldn't find a single argument that he could resist possession by himself.
Also Infinite is not that big of a threat, it is just the writing of Forces that hyped him up so much that he couldn't possibly live up to the expectation, also the storyboard artist confirmed that his crushing by the Twhomp was a reference to another Bowser vs Eggman animation.
But are you mad that Eggman didn't win or are you fine with the result, just disappointed they didn't analyze his stuff the way you did in your video? A lot of debunk videos usually stamp from someone being salty because their character didn't win, but Bowser vs Eggman was so close it didn't feel to me like their research was wrong.
Infinite doesn't really have any resistance to transmutation unless you count the cube wispon, but that's not on the same level or scale as Bowsers reality warping and transmutation. Bowser could also steal the ruby. The only phantom ruby user with resistance to transmutation would be Lightman in the egg fields seeing as he controls all aspects of it and can make his thoughts into reality. Both have insta win sealing like King Boo's paintings that immobilize and seal, and cyberspace and spatial displacement traps. Each would be hard to pull off given the amount of allies in each side. If either is pulled off it's an insta deal. Bowser has no way to counter super Neo metal as the chaos emeralds remove adverse effects, and are able to attack conceptually. Doesn't have a reliable way of getting rid of the time eater either.
@@theguywhoasked2597 he just said that tho😭 he knows why it wasn’t included
Because, if Eggman brought them up, Bowser had something to counter it. So, just as Eggman's options were swept under, so would the solutions that Bowser could present.
Only reason metal sonic died is because he got scoliosis from carrying the team on his back😭🙏🏾
ON GAIA
Meh Metal sonic was irrelevant
FR 😭
242nd like
My boy rage used to be believable
Metal died cause he decided to NEARLY KILL Bowser’s LITERAL CHILD which pissed him off immensely.
Before anything is said
Bowser's "Showtime" went hard af
That was an epic clutch moment
@@no9ah103 bowsers showtime went wayyy harder than anything the entire eggman empire did the whole fight, ima be fr
@@toiletcombiner nah I think Neo Metal beats him out there
“Mario fans, ur games are mid”
I ain’t a Mario fan but you’re clearly salty as a pretzel 😭
Yeah calling Mario games mid as a Sonic fan is... a bold move. Remember who you were in the 2010s
I once threw my chair on a guy that nade fun of me for liking Sonic back in school...I was like 9 years old don't judge me
@@KiiBon Bro was so salty, that's how sonic fan nerds are!
@@Uesr2004DDont act like most fandoms ere not toxic when a character of the verse they like lose. Elso, yall should check his community post, he adressed this claim.
@@KiiBon and the 2000s
Regardless of the outcome, the fight animation was peak fiction
Indeed, Love that episode
Metal was the MVP, sad that he went out the way he did
But the egg salamander and wizard was piloted by Eggman and Eggman nega
Facts
@@Dawnfall_06yeah, that and the Egg Wizard were the only mechs Eggman shouldn't get. He is confirmed to have every other mech and robot he has used before though.
Wait a fucking minute, Egg Man's goal is to build a theme park 💀💀
Um yeah? Been a thing since the classic games
I mean that and world domination (colors and forces)
In Sonic Chaos, he wanted to use the Chaos Emeralds to build Nuclear weapons
so he could build a theme park
@@TheEternalFlame57 I mean sonic colors exist
He built it in Unleashed
Im gonna make some counter arguments, as a fan of both
"You gave kamek chance time, I don't want to hear it" I'm not sure that's a prep-time issue, that kinda just happens in like 20 seconds. The real issue is if they count it as canon
"They gave him infinite, but where's starline" as of now? Dead. Before that? About as against him as the deadly six
"There's no way Bowser is doing anything to the egg dragoon" well, if you noticed in the animation, while he did hit the gun, the main way to destroy it was actually just throwing the electric drill attack back at it to weaken, and THEN impale the cockpit. So he didn't destroy the machine, he just broke through a part of it
The metal virus is confusing because by all technicalities, shadow *did* resist it for a bit. there are moments where he's clearly spindashing into the horde, and he comes out fine. Plus, shadow was created at minimum 50 years before the metal virus, which isn't naturally occuring. And it mutates rather quickly.
"Knowing Mario fans -" listen, as a sonic fan, we are in NO position to talk
For the phantom Ruby I think it's more of a cancels out. The phantom Ruby alters reality, yes. So does the wonder flower. It's kinda pointless to have both because neither get an edge.
Oh boy, the super sonic thing. Okay, throughout frontiers, which is after the metal virus arc in IDW, sonic says "I'll need the chaos emeralds, and maybe a little luck." Sage calculates that supersonic can't defeat the end on his own. And in the final horizon dlc (if bowser gets Mario party, we get this), supersonic is shown to be OBJECTIVELY overpowered. The chaos emeralds, when gathered, should not be able to have infinite power, while also being overpowered.
As for the loyalty part...yeah they could have worded it better, essentially eggman isn't the best strategist in terms of war. Referring back to IDW, tails notes that when metal sonic, pretending to be eggman, sent out robots, they were much more coordinated. It's more like teamwork and strategy. They just phrased it bad.
"Your games are still mid anyway" don't get cocky, we still had the 2010's, the worst mainline mario got was the NSMB series, which isnt even close to sonic's worst
That's about all of my issues.
Honestly I was having immense issues when this started talking about infinite scaling feat which really oversells a lot of what Sonic characters have done in the past
There are impressive feats but jeez none of these guys are infinite in any regard
@Skynetbear didn't break that down, but I found the logic sound, the result unacceptable. Because that means that base sonic scales beyond Solaris, and maybe I'm in the wrong, but that's ridiculous
@@burbusburbus8782 My problem was that you could make the same infinite feats for Bowser who tanked the destruction of the universe which has a similar cosmological scale to Sonic’s and had the Pure Hearts which are capable of repairing the damage caused by the Chaos Heart capable of wiping out all existence
Now what we have is 2 characters who are just infinite in what they can do and the scaling gets muddy
@Skynetbear I always saw the fight as "toned down plot armor (sonic universe) vs toned down toon force (Mario universe)"
Super Sonic has infinite energy. It just doesn't USE infinite energy. Input vs output
Let's make this interesting...
I'll be trying to *defend* everything I feasibly can, this comment will be updated with everything once I'm finished.
"why weren't the alternate scenarios / some of Eggman's gear used in the main scenario"
Because they're not made of money, they couldn't feasibly include everything in the animation. You could also make this argument for Bowser. why didn't they include the Star Rod, The Dream Stone, or The Wonder Flower? It would be the same answer, they just didn't have the budget for it. Those alternate scenarios weren't even meant to be there, they were just something Morø did for fun (further proof why he's a goat). Rest assured that even *if* it wasn't in the animation or they didn't have enough time to mention it while keeping a cohesive and well-paced conclusion, it *was* likely factored in.
"They don't mention any of the stronger Eggman Mechs"
Uh... Yes they do...? they're pretty explicitly listed in Eggman's arsenal. They're also probably the reason Eggman was given, and I quote: "Equivalent strength via mechs"
"Eggman built a thing that transcends dimensionality and then has things later that are stated to be the strongest thing he's ever built"
Cool i guess but Bowser and his army have the scaling to match.
As for the Egg Dragoon being stronger than The Egg Salamander and having immeasurable speed. Fair I guess, Sonic power creep does go crazy. Though I could argue Bowser just has the stats to match.
"They don't use the hard-boiled heavies"
I've heard that they were cut and appeared fighting the koopalings in the storyboards, mainly because it would have just taken too much time for a segment so small. Also, just look at defense number 1.
As a bonus defense, Phantom King is one of the many people who betrayed Eggman, so it's unlikely he would have factored in (at *most* we would have gotten Heavy King)
"Metal Sonic should be beyond lightspeed"
True, Death Battle also probably agrees with you. He *was* likely scaled to the 73 quadrillion times lightspeed feat in Eggman's analysis and the immeasurable arguments given in the black boxes during the post analysis.
Also, as for the copying, it's mentioned Kamek can just shut it down in the post analysis (they also King Boo just flat out possessing technology IIRC, so that's also another counter as he could just possess Metal Sonic and stop him from doing shit).
"The Phantom Ruby's illusions are real"
...True! I won't defend this, I think it was dumb for them to focus on this argument. I think choosing to focus on the Wonder Flowers debatably greater scale as mentioned in the post analysis would have been *much* better.
"Infinite downplay"
Yeah, You could argue Infinite is stronger then where they put him (as long as you don't argue he's Solaris level I don't have a problem LOL). Bowser's army however can reach the same scale and have the hax to take him out (Transmutation, Wishing him out of existence, you get the idea).
*However,* you *can't* scale him to stuff like Mania's Phantom Ruby. Because Infinite only has a weaker prototype Phantom Ruby (to be fair, this is a detail a lot of people forget).
"Why didn't they give Eggman the Lightman form?"
Because of the shitton of prep it takes. Even then, the only real leg up it would give him is its memory manipulation. You can argue Bowser resists this due to his brain constantly creating backups of memories (It's his brain is also encrypted like a computer, but it's simultaneously still organic so Sage can't hack it. Even if it could be hacked, if she tried it would release Memory M & L as a defense mechanism.)
Also, Chance Time was just for the lulz. Bowser has several other ways to steal items.
"Solaris downplay"
...Yeah... Not much to say, Solaris scaling was downplayed based on what was said verbally.
"Where's Starline?"
One of the many people who betrayed him, and Eggman wouldn't be willing to work with him again. Which means he wasn't factored in.
"The best for Bowser is inaccessible."
Nope! He was able to keep up with Chaos Heart-amped individuals like Count Bleck and Super Dimentio, which threatened every world and dimension in all of existence by physically traveling in and destroying each one (the only exception was Dimension D due to Dimentio controlling the Void and specifically making it be safe). This would necessarily have to include the Cutout dimension, which is stated to “transcend the boundaries of space and time”, effectively making it beyond time. The Pure Hearts were also able to catch up to the Void and reverse it, meaning they’d need immeasurable speed to do so.
"5D scaling"
Bowser has this and 6-D scaling, for more info read "the true scope of Mario's cosmology" on reddit
"Spatial displacement trap"
Bowser resists it through some combination of reality warping, matter manipulation, and his own physical durability. Worst case scenario, his regeneration is just *that* good.
Can Eggman resist being turned into a brick or a painting though? That's what I thought.
"The metal virus"
Bowser has counters to it up the ass! Just to list... A *few*
1. Party Cleanse (get rid of all the party's negative status effects)
2. Minion Spirit (allows them to resist mine corruption because they're just *that* loyal lol)
3. Even if you want to argue it's corruption is *layered.* Bowser Jr could just use the medicine he used to cure Morton of Formula:X's brainwashing (Morton was immune to Fawful's mind corruption last game).
"The only thing that can counter The Phantom Ruby is The Phantom Ruby"
No Limits Fallacy. The Phantom Ruby has never really interacted with other reality warping powers before, so we can't say it would be immune to it. Even then, nothing is preventing it from just being stolen (or turned into a slipper by Kamek)
"The Lightman should have been used because Death Battle takes combatants at their best)"
The Lightman just isn't a form Eggman has easy access to compared to something like Dreamy Bowser or Wonder Bowser where he only needs one specific item to activate the form. It'd be like giving Dr Doom The Beyonders powers because that was technically his best. It's just *not* something he can access easily, even then it's not really a guaranteed win.
"The Chaos Emeralds grant infinite power, so the Grand Stars couldn't match them.)
Infinite Power is... Pretty vague and undefined, it'd be a bit disingenuous to say it's infinitely above something because of a singular statement. Even then the stars aren't even the best MacGuffin Bowser has.
"Loyalty doesn't matter"
Okay. The argument isn't *just* that Bowser's army is more loyal. That's used as supporting evidence that Bowser's army is just better at working together, Eggman's a terrible team player who gets betrayed constantly and whose army just isn't really built to work together for an all-out war scenario like this one.
"Eggman's ambitions aren't as high"
Bowser's army being bigger probably also helps with the much larger conquest LMAO. In all seriousness, the point about their conquests is more so just to cap it off, not an actual important argument.
Interesting. I'll bite.
@@Unremarkable6969Alrighty, I'm pretty sure I've responded to everything.
Damn that’s a concise list.
Took way too long to find a comment like this. Thank you for being one of the few actually trying to contribute to the conversation instead of the typical "Hurr salty fanboy hahaahh!!" comments (though the uploader's attitude certainly doesn't help prevent those types of comments)
Finally, someone reasonable
The fact that Eggman can’t build a dаmn theme park even after threatening the destruction of infinite timelines proofs that bureaucracy is outversal+
Moral of the story...
Metal Sonic carried the entire match.
He's the coldest fictional character of course he did
He died from the back pain
@@Flame-i5gno budget cuts.
Benefit of being the single strongest autonomous mech the good doctor has put together.
His one downfall was messing with the King of the Koopa’s child..and of course also his
***D A R R R K M A G I C.***
virginite: IM STRONG, IM STRONG, IM STRONG!!!!!
Chad Twomp: UUUUHHH!!!!
@@thefakeparadox-2376
Virginite: IM NOT WEAK… IM NOT WEA-
*_URGHHH_* 💯💯🔥🔥🗣️🗣️
"I AM NOT WEAK! I AM NOT WEAAAKKK!!!"
the thwomp in the background:
King Boo: 😂🗿
Best meme ngl
Watched one minute of the video before clicking off bruh. "Why didn't they use the alternate scenarios in the fight" because none of those things change the outcome u bum they literally said this 💀
@@RichieGonzo ☝️🤓
This you?
Wich means he didnt even cared abt the explanation because they said it and he was prob destroying his TV out of rage
@@Unremarkable6969 Prove me wrong bro
@@RichieGonzo he literally addressed the alternate outcomes in the video and you have the audacity to say "watched one minute before clicking off"
Finally, someone gets it. Why would they make the whole fight about scenarios that either end in a tie or where Eggman still loses?
If both sides had all their reality warping, it would just tie no matter what. So neither side got their reality warping.
Which means Bowser wins. It's not like they didn't have the 7 friggin Chaos Emeralds, they were not downplayed at all.
The fact that death battle made not only sonic fans, but dragon ball fans salty almost back to back is really funny.
can’t wait for Goku vs Sonic
@@liljuddzseems like theyl be pretty close unsure who would win, dont know if they will count forms like hyper or not
@@liljuddzMore like ‘remake of Shadow vs. Vegeta’ when!?
@@DeathBattleFan-wi4cc pretty sure they pissed off the jojo fans as well
@BBK113 JoJo fans (including myself) don't get nearly as upset or care as much for their character losing compared to dragon ball and sonic fans. They go apeshit if their character loses, but at least with among us vs. fall guys, I'm pretty sure fans of both series won't really care if either one loses.
While I still dont agree with Infinite being above Solaris and Time Eater, I can at least appreciate that you at least TRIED to explain how he could be stronger than the two via scaling, rather than just resort to just that dumb quote from the promotional material. It's nice seeing effort.
Also, for every "Didnt give Eggman This or That," there's definitely one for Bowser as well.
At least we got some animated Lightman and Time Eater, as well as the Metal Virus, so I can't complain
Fuck Forces though
FUCK Sonic Forces, all my homies HATE Sonic Forces
@@Unremarkable6969
Though without Forces, we wouldn't have gotten Infinite's Theme
He's such a cool concept but goddamn it he's the ONLY good appeal of Forces.
Thwomp'd
@@Unremarkable6969 I actually love the game, it just could have been better
@@Unremarkable6969Sonic Forces is worse than a bad game like Sonic 06 or Sonic Boom to me because it doesn’t even try anything. It has no soul.
why is everyone hating on forces, I loved that game, it was short but sweet. Also, all the infinite lore was pretty hype.
I still can't forgive them for Ben 10 vs Green Lantern to this day, but the animation was top tier
ngl.
Fair and I agree. Green Lantern could win but the way he did win was pure 🐃💩
@@DJBurns-jq8mn I want aliens that could do something with hals light construct several ones they named but didn't even put in the video.
@@DromusTH we all did
Facts I cant let that go
Sonic fans when they watch the coolest thing in the world, but their character dies:😭
EXACTLY
LMAO TRUE
Nerd ahh dude
For real tho
🫵🤡🌽⚽️
I respect your debunk, but I still think Bowser wins this. Especially since you didnt really do a good job Debunking the Bowser stuff since you skipped over his section.
Not to mention, powerscaling is way too subjective to just say the Mario cast CANT have immersurable speed and that Bowser cant match the emeralds if he has the stars AND the dream stone.
Fair enough, a lot of Power Scaling is up to personal interpretation, because Nintendo isn't making things any easier 😒
Power scaling isn't subjective, it's objective, it's just that most people are too biased to admit their wrong, or most people don't do proper research
Something DB is known for... I still remember those god awful outcomes between Hulk vs Broly, Megatron vs Frieza, and Discord vs Bill cypher
@@jaybonewilks2747 it 100% is it depends on interpretation of statements, what you deem consistent and other factors
@@jaybonewilks2747You have to have a massive ego to claim that your views on a matchup is objective
Multiversal base mario and luigi is some of the dumbest power scaling wank I've seen and completely breaks the narrative of every game. This isn't even a kirby situation where at least the character is portrayed as doing amazing feats on screen to somewhat back up the scaling. Mario has 0 planet busting feats whatsoever. He has dozens of building level and below antifeats. He is supposed to be physically weaker than regual bowser. Why are people trying to use dreamy bowser to scale everyone to multiversal and beyond. Modern powerscaling is nonsense
The cope might be stronger than gojo fans 😭
Poor metal sonic, he needs pain meds to supress the back pain he got from carrying eggman
“For Mario fans, enjoy your win. Your games are still mid anyway”
I knew you were coping from the very start, but you didn’t have to make it obvious..
Mario games are boring to ME. They are polished, Galaxy is fun and cozy, and 64 broke boundaries and paved the way for the 3D platforming genre. But for me, they are just fluff. In one ear and out the other.
@@Unremarkable6969honestly it's hard to give people your opinion because they're always going to this shitty
Eh, oh well
@@Unremarkable6969I think you are completely right. In fact I can’t even play a Mario game without being completely bored through my mind. I mean heck Sonic 1 had MULTIPLE ROUTES YOU COULD GO THROUGH ON THE LEVELS and the only game I saw from Mario that did that was a DS game. NOT EVEN THE WII GAME DID THAT LIKE BRO WHAT THE HELL. And don’t get me started on how Mario characters in almost every game have little personality while Sonic games SHOW PEOPLE GETTING KILLED IN COMICS AND GAMES LIKE BRO WHAT IS EVERYONE ON?!?!
I mean the comics are a different story as unlike the games they aren’t restricted as much and I won’t deny the first Sonic’s games definitely outshined the Mario games but uh Sonic games weren’t doing so hot until ya know frontiers and maybe the shadow game but that’s not coming until way next year but after seeing its trailer it’s probably gonna be good but anyways Mario was always consistent in quality even if it was mid it was consistent with some absolute bangers coming every once in a while but sonic games just kept on falling on its face over and over again. There wasn’t a good games for literal years. Although I do like sonic 1 gameplay more but I can see why people like Mario so much as it’s relaxing its easy and it’s fun for them
That death battle was peak Cimena tbh i don't care who won i need Moro to be in death battle a bit more
Moro VS Galactus?
@@Unremarkable6969 i mean the animater moro_production not the uh dragon ball character
@@Unremarkable6969 I think he means the animator, who did this Death Battle.
@@HarbingerYT I am slow 😓
Moro vs Darth Nihlus (Dragon Ball VS Star Wars) Goes hard.
Nihlus destroys btw.
@@Unremarkable6969
Honestly was expecting a video like this to happen but honestly, no matter what the outcome was, both sides did end up winning with this amazing peak fight, a Big W for both sides, gotta appreciate moro for all his hard work to satisfy both sides, i do hope he makes more appearances in death battle, such a talented man
@@abyss-aster8748 Moro did his best with what he had, but whoever did the storyboarding had a clear bias either for Mario or against Eggman
@@epiccarrot88 true
Just because something isn't in the animation doesn't mean they didn't factor it into the result do you seriously expect them to include the metal virus on top of everything else in the episode
Animation is expensive
Not even just that, they directly explain that Bowser had a direct counter to it (transmuting the army back using his wand).
Like why would they include something that would be instantly and perfectly countered? It's a waste
They included an alternative scenario that showed bowser countering it with his worn transmutation magic
Exactly. Animation is just a visual treat. It isn’t meant to represent the whole debate objectively.
@@MindForgedManacletransmutation magic is ineffective against metal virus, if it was eggman would've put a end to all of it since he also has transmutation technologies.
he literally explained in this video, you didnt watched it did you?
7:01 This is what I like to call "Yamcha Syndrome". Where a character is mocked for being a pushover or weak in their franchise but is actually considered really strong when in a vacuum, just like Yamcha. The only reason why Infinite is viewed as so is because that's just how strong Sonic, Shadow and their friends really are in comparison.
Yeah it's kind funny to me. Infinite's such a loser in his own series...that he's kind of the reason everyone in Sonic is Universal+ in base, because they're all within 2 or 3 degrees of chain scaling to this guy.
Hell even Mr. Satan is insanely strong just not in dbz
I find it funny that since a twomp took out infinite, that means it would be able to beat any sonic boss prior to him💀
funny enough that twomp was boosted by infinite's power, its a self takedown i think.
It's because of the higher gravity (which is calculated to be a lot stronger than earth's gravity) causing the thwomp to fall faster therefor having greater impact therefor defeating infinite. No, a thwomp alone cannot beat all sonic bosses.
Still funny that the strongest sonic villain took himself out due to sheer stupidity, like there was other stuff the phantom ruby could do💀
@@Kirb_The_MenaceFeels pretty accurate to how much of a fraud Infinite showed himself to be in Sonic Forces to me.
@@Kirb_The_Menace Funny and SUPER forced since Infinite isn't actually stupid in thee game. He'd more likely have fired lasers, or summoned copies of villains with the phantom ruby to fight. Hell, he was ony messing with gravity in the game to mess with the Avatar and the resistence from Eggman's orders.
They had him do the one thing that King Boo would be able to properly counter with it being out of character for him so that moment, while funny at first, really sours the result for me.
They way hes talking the Mario games down just shows he is not someone to debate and is just salty over a video outcome.
Mario games are BORING man
@@Unremarkable6969 sonic boom, sonic 06, sonic forces. Are you stupid or dumb
@Unremarkable6969 Alright ur opinion but ey sonic aint better. And saying smthg like that in a "debunk" just shows off really bad.
@@Unremarkable6969just like your channel
@@jovia6462 ok then dont watch it (also can people not dislike a franchise????)
he wants to build a theme park so badly its the whole fucking reason the fight began
"this territory is now the base for my upcoming eggmanland 2"
he almost kills sonic and mass produces robots plus pisses on the moon plus threatens timelines
SO HE CAN BUILD A THEME PARK
Fr like didn’t he make small planets in sonic colors
I think my biggest gripe is how they try to hand wave Time Eater by saying bowser could just wish everything back to normal or out of existence.
1) TE scales WAY above the Dream Stone, there's nothing to suggest Bowser could just wish people away or he would have done it a long time ago
and 2) Time Eater does far more than just eat time. It completely displaces it. It could easily just bring every major sonic villain back at full power and multiple eggmans and there's just nothing he could do at that point. It is literally the ultimate Trump card without Sonic or Shadow around. He's not killing it, he's not wishing it away, and it's by far the most broken thing to have on your team.
Except Bowser literally says on screen IN THE GAME, that the Dream Stone gives him the power to wish away anything. DB shows it on the screen so you know what they're referring to, lol. That's the whole reason Bowser wanted the Dream Stone.
@MindForgedManacle and what exactly enlightened him to that actually being the case and not just some exaggerated statement? He's not eggman, he didn't sit there and study the thing to learn about it.
If he really could just wish for truly anything, he literally couldn't have lost. But he did, so it's clearly not anywhere near as powerful as it's stated to be in game. It has no feats to back itself up.
Time Eater on the other hand has the entirety of generations as his feat. You can't wish something that can choose whether or not something exists to not exist.
@KotalaGod he was literally going to wish mario and Luigi out of existence in the game itself, and probably did that because of how many times he's been betrayed or had things go wrong for him, he was only stopped because peach and starlow pulled a power out of nowhere in order to stop him,
Once he absorbed the dream stone however, the rules changed, with the dream stone now a part of bowser, he didn't have to worry about his new power being taken from him any more, meaning he felt he could take the time to defeat the bros properly and have the satisfaction of beating them himself,
And by the same logic you're using to debunk dreamy bowser, the time Eater could have just come back and finished sonic off at any time in sonic generations and should of just trapped him in white space like it did to his friends, but it didn't,
@@KotalaGod "and what exactly enlightened him to that actually being the case and not just
some exaggerated statement?"
Because everywhere throughout the game that is directly confirmed. Antasma says it (and he's working with Bowser), Dreambert says it, Eldream says it. It's not just Bowser, don't be absurd. they all say the same thing: It can grant any wish.
"If he really could just wish for truly anything, he literally couldn't have lost"
You know you can just look at the game and see how they actually avoided that: Peach and Starlow attack Bowser before he could use the Dream Stone. It's not that it didn't work, he says "Dream Stone! Disappear 'em" and then he's attacked. He only every inhales the fragments, and never uses the wish granting power in the Dreamy Form.
"You can't wish something that can choose whether or not something exists to not exist."
You realize that the Dream Stone can make something not exist, right? That's what Bowser was trying to do when peach and Starlow destroyed it from behind him.
@@MindForgedManacle Ah yes existence erasure... because that's worked on sonic characters before
You can’t call Mario games mid when you’re a Sonic fan. Pot calling kettle black etc etc 😂
Bro was basically and bro crying way to much like damn the sonic Fandom can't fucking accept logic that the mario verse simply is just to powerful for the sonic universe to take on
@@nintendogamerkid350Why you letting one guy determine how an entire fandom feels?
@@nintendogamerkid350dawg u can’t be serious with a name like that
@hiddenflare6169 I'm apart of the sonic and mario fan- actually nevermind I'm never joining the sonic Fandom not after the art that is in both for the characters.
@hiddenflare6169 also it's not one person it's multiple people because everytime I go into any comment section for any mario character beating a sonic character then the sonic fans cry and complain and start saying everything in the book about how they should have won without looking into the facts for the mario characters.
why are people so pressed over his opinion about Mario games being mid? but Mario fans can say that sonic games are mid and get praised? just asking
I know bro, Mario fans can't take what they dish
I mean, Mario fans can actually say it with high ground of being right. Even most Sonic fans would agree even if reluctantly that the 2010’s were no easy time for Sonic while the "lows" of Mario games are not that bad. It’s like an American saying the US has better gastronomy than France. It’s straight up wrong.
Because it shows he biased. He is only scaling Eggman but NOT BOWSER. If you're going to scale in a vs battle, scale both characters instead of just one
remember when coney said he didn’t like sonic games
One of my main gripes is that Metal Sonic is actually rather underpowered. Yes yes, we’ve seen the “he died because he broke his back carrying the team” joke a million times at this point, but he could have carried a lot more.
Metal scales almost 1:1 with Archie Sonic in their basic forms. Neo Metal Sonic then beats Sonic, Super Sonic then beats Neo Metal, and Super Neo Metal scales up to Super Sonic for a large majority of stats.
Super Neo Metal Sonic, the highest form seen in the comics and used in the battle, is way stronger than seen in this fight. Super Sonic can reach reality and even multiverse levels that can alter reality and reach speeds “beyond space and time”. Super Neo Metal Sonic can’t manipulate _reality_ the same way as Super Sonic, but he reaches the same “beyond space and time” speed and he can certainly destroy timelines with sheer energy attacks alone. That alone makes me wonder how his energy attack didn’t hold up again Bowser, who is a Galactic to Multigactic threat at most.
What is theorized to be holding Super Neo Metal from tapping into Super Sonic’s chaos control. Chaos control is the ability to manipulate and control chaos energy, chaos energy representing the nature of the multiverse itself. It is often remembered as what lets Shadow teleport around. Super Sonic gets so much control over this that he threatened the entire multiverse in terms of sheer power and reality manipulating abilities. And what prevents Super Neo Metal from doing this is the fact he is a machine driven by cold logic, rather than the emotions and instincts necessary to let Chaos energy flow through you. And Metal Sonic, particularly his Super Neo form, is all about learning and evolving, and theory I’ve seen is that it won’t be long before his form allows him to evolve true sapience for emotions and instincts. Of course, this speculation and theory crafting has no bearing on the Death Battle.
That fight went so stupidly hard that I don’t even care about the victor 😭
The hype of the fight got me invested and then Eggman lost and I had a moment
Moro carried the episode on his shoulders
@@Unremarkable6969If It helps:
Morø Said in his twitter that he was rooting for Eggman.
@alexbaribeault
Fr tho.
His back must be in worse shape than Metal's with the godlike carry that was the animation.
Ok just pointing something out here.
The Chaos Emeralds are NOT infinite, they are LIMITLESS. Implying that the limits of their energy capacity have yet to be truely found and measured. They can still be overtaxed and drained if met with a similar or greater power. Only the Master Emerald ITSELF is truely infinite, now if we were talking about the HYPER EMERALDS though…that is another story entirely, and this is coming from a die hard Sonic Fan.
no they have infinite power
@ then tell me, why can’t Sonic stay super forever? Why can they even be drained to a useless state if their power was infinite in total? (Source: Sonic Adventure 1, Sonic Unleashed). Why do you think the word “Limitless” exists in the English dictionary if the Emeralds don’t follow the logic of having infinity energy as you so say?
@ sonic can stay in super for as long as he likes, in advance he was in it for weeks and sonic is the only character in the series with full control over them(besides knuckles) so silver, tails, metal sonic and shadow the emeralds go away on there own
@ you do understand how space works right? The farther you go from Earth the more noticeable the time difference is. A week on Mobius would be the time to fly to the final boss, fight it and fly back before the time limit runs out, which would only be a few minutes on Sonic's end.
@@kanewilson8624That’s not how time dilation works 😂
Also wanna say something. You can very easily scale bowser to 5D. This isn't even wank. If i wanted to wank bowser. The dream stone makes him infinite Dimensional and High outer.
In Mario galaxy, their is a location called the Matter Splatter Galaxy. Wich is very very explicity a 4th dimensional space. Both via the kanji. As well as how the space operates. So given how our universe opperates with 4 dimensions, 3 physical contained by the 4th dimension of time. The mario universe must be similar. With 5 dimensions in the universe, 4 Observable. And the 5th being more abstract caging in the other 4. And bowsers galaxy generator. Not just the black hole at the end of the game. Is stated to be able to destroy this universe easily.
He isn't outer he isn't touching Scarlet King not in a million years. Let alone Error 404 as much as I hate 404 he's not doing anything to them.
@@XenoSonicFan I'm not the inventor of the scaling chain. From what I looked into. Its due to both string theory being present in Mario cosmology. And the dream stone being infinite Dimensional. Both Mario and bowser survived things that would have destroyed the entire Mario cosmology. So yeahm pretty simple.
Alphatale has string theory, in order for it to work properly it must feature a Higgs Particle. And the concept of Alternate Universes. Realistically Mario doesn't have anything with String Theory Dreamy Bowser actual has more anti feats then feats. There's proof for this when Dreamy Bowser got stomped by the base form of the brothers. Even then that makes no sense, unless base Mario is Outerversal, than that means Kirby is Boundless which he obviously isn't. As a fan of Kirby that's just wank.
With some relatively believable wank you can get the Mario verse at 11D via the reference to Spring Theory.
@XenoSonicFan I honestly don't care about whether he beats alphatale. All I wanted to do was showcase that bowser is definitely not only 4D
The fight is summarized in "eggman doesn't hit any punches"
That’s because they used the animation to show how both were different leaders, which ties into the post analysis and overall conclusion. Bowser was rushing in on the front lines, while Eggman sent his troops ahead from far away. It’s in character for both of them.
Ngl, I think this would happen if Eggman underestimated Bowser and just went in thinking this was gonna be easy.
@@Oyflim_The_Great even so would still be a tough call if he didn’t
To quote the true victor of this battle: "Shut up, nerd!"
Damn...
Can't really argue with that
@@Unremarkable6969 I agree with your arguments but theirs no comeback to that.
If you don't want anyone saying bad things about your debunk, do actual research on both sides?That's all my advice i have to say
I strive for and love comments critiquing my video. It holds me to a standard.
Anyway
Bowser protecting his army and his son was the coolest thing about this battle
Metal transforming into Neo was cool too. And the death egg appearance. And the part where Neo went super (he should have ended that fight).
i dont get how it didnt kill those enemies behind him tho, it literally went past bowser and could easily destroy the planet, especially bc the emeralds
@ so true
bowser caring for his army.. no, his FAMILY. 🥺
1:13 Let's compare the teams used, shall we:
Bowser team:
-Himself
-Bowser Jr
-Kamek
-King Boo
-Filler troops
Eggman team:
-Death Egg Robot
-Death Egg
-Egg Dragoon
-Sage
-Metal Sonic
-Infinite
-Filler troops
So both teams were balanced in terms of amount of characters (and Eggman even had a slight edge in that aspect), giving more stuff to Eggman would be unfair.
Also neither Bowser nor Sonic have innaccissble/inmeasurable speed, specially not when Sonic himself says he was too slow to save Tails in Lost World.
Then give Bowser more 🗿
In an alternate timeline eggman wins and you make a video debunking it saying bowser should have won.
That's trippy to think about.
Anti-Unremarkable
@@Unremarkable6969Remarkable9696*
@@Unremarkable6969”liquid unremarkable”
Average Undertale AU be like.
man, they turned metal sonic into the egg carrier in this fight fr
One of metal sonic's most consistent feats is it being on par with sonic's both game and lore wise, with an actual confirmation that sonic in sonic CD was fast enough to be forward and backwards in time and considering they also took feats from the archie comics means it's even faster so I kinda get how metal hardcarried this fight
Also yall forgot how eggman managed to tame a monster who could just manipulate the entire flow of time and space in generations?
Fodder compared to what Bowser did at base
Metal Sonic is now nothing more than a jobber. Jobbed to Amy, jobbed to the Chaotix, jobbed to Shadow. He’s not equal with Sonic and hasn’t been since Heroes.
They didnt used archie, they used idw
@@someguy9970Metal being weak now doesn’t matter. If metal was overwhelming strong a one point, like say how he is in Sonic Heroes, then they will use that version. They will only use his strongest version.
@@LegoWhisbecauseyesUhhhh, actual feats to prove your statement?
Alright here are my points as a Mario fan and also a recent Sonic fan
1) the metal virus can be removed through the warp topaz and super forms, so I am certain magic would easily not only counter it but also give Bowser huge advantages against Eggman who’s research is always based on research and limits of things rather than with Bowser’s and Kamek’s magic which outright did not need any prep nor experimentation to reach it’s limits without back firing even while considering how easily Eggman’s most ambitious ideas can back fire if he is not careful
2) King Boo is a ghost who can not only create whole dimensions like infinte but also has a lot of the same powers without the worry of a physical body, meaning infinite couldn’t restrain and since he was using magic instead of an unstable energy filled jewel it meant that he didn’t need to worry about any limits it could have, like needing to constantly focus while using or any physical limits it might have when it comes to using it (it’s not exactly defined thanks to Forces terrible writing that almost made me think I didn’t like Sonic so it’s best just to go off of what is shown rather than what the media at the time said)
3) Kamek can disable abilities and summon almost anything (including more minions just like the other magikoopas) and even buff other minions, so considering all of that it is not that much of a stretch to say he could teleport something small into bowser’s grasp like he does in Mario party, and the chance time bit was just there as a cute nod like Metal saying I’ll crush you or Eggman saying he has come to make an announcement, rather than saying chance time is an ability he always has since all feel canon even if they aren’t 100% to how it would happen for real.
4) He doesn’t have Starline because Starline was barely considered a part of the Eggman empire and was quickly dumped due to not listening to orders, versus Infinite who was the opposite and a major part even if he wasn’t seen in future games just like the hard boiled heavies, who were most likely not included due to how they wanted to focus the battle, speaking of which
5) Heavy king being fought by super sonic doesn’t mean he is on the same scale as perfect chaos, Solaris etc. it was most likely why that battle happened the way it did, was because the emeralds might trigger certain responses in the phantom ruby, that would explain why Metal only gets the ruby if you get all the emeralds first before fighting him
6) Sonic getting stronger every second is a bit of stretch, because just because something is said doesn’t mean it confirms scaling or is a feat in itself unless it is shown through scalable means, that would also make heavy king severely weaker looking back considering classic super sonic easily beat him and Eggman at the same time, and also proves why every newer mech being stronger than the last is a weak argument considering he also considers the slot machine that hurts himself is greatest creation in shadow the hedgehog
7) it is really dumb your last point considering you said it was just them being sappy, when most of bowser’s army is based around working as a team to become stronger, Kamek buffs allies, the elite trio and other minion teams will revive each other to keep the fight going through 1-ups and more minion back up, they can cover their own weaknesses more than Eggman’s army, and they can even formulate a lot more strategies on the fly a majority of badniks and even some of Eggman’s generals couldn’t do as much when the battle got hectic, which ensure that their would be more surviving troops on Bowser’s side near the end which is where both armies would need the leg up the most since both have debating attacks that could easily wipe out a lot members of both sides when they hit.
8) the chaos emeralds may have unlimited energy, but it doesn’t mean that you can instantly do anything with, unless you have a super form or the right machine (something even Eggman struggles to figure out) plus you can argue unlimited energy just refers to the as a power source/enabler rather than what they can do especially since even with them Super Sonic still has to put a lot of effort in order to win his fights so why doesn’t he just use the unlimited power to rewrite the universe to not have that foe which is something both the wonder flower, the dream stone, and debatably the power stars can do, something’s bowser can utilize more easily thanks to his magic while Eggman often has to build around using stuff like the emeralds which limit them.
It's like you didn't watch the explainer at the end. Eggman's trump cards weren't ignored. They either wouldn't be enough to progress the battle past a tie, or in the case of the Phantom Ruby, would be an Eggman loss that still required only giving Eggman weeks of prep-time and not Bowser.
It doesn't seem complicated and in the DB itself, they don't want to add big abilities that can be instantly undone or tied by the other side:
Wonder Flower > Phantom Ruby. WF is an actual universal reality warper and has a shorter charge time. PR->Light Man is a planetary-level perception controller and requires weeks of charging on a PR prototype gem. Controlling perception on a planetary scale is an inarguable loss to a universal reality warper.
The other Eggman trump cards are reality warpers, but Bowser has 3 of those (Wonder Flower, Star Rod and Dream Stone). So as long as both sides are treated equivalently (either getting only 1 such trump card each or getting them all), it's at best a tie. Like why would they add the Paradox Prism if the Pure Hearts are a perfect counter? What's the point of giving Bowser the Star Rod if Eggman could counter it as Nightmare Eggman? DBs that can only logically end as a tie should not be common.
Phantom Ruby is just a straight loss though. But without one side having an obvious deficiency or limitation, a battle between universal reality warpers has no obvious winner. Which negates the point of having a Death Battle between them to begin with.
I mean, if Bowser had lost this despite the same abilities being used, I wouldn't complain that he wasn't given the Wonder Flower. Because a universal reality warper will obviously win against a non-reality warper. But Bowser wasn't given reality warping here either, so it just comes across as you complaining that Eggman lost.
Reality warping > illusions,
Problem: The wonder flower vs the phantom ruby debate are only about range. The two of then work warping reality and the phantom ruby created and infinite sized world in forces. Saying "planet level" as if it couldn't do more than that is plain wrong. Besides that Eggman's weapons aside from hax are also stronger when you include scaling. The robots from rush hit harder than any of Bowser's objects, the dreamy stone failed Bowser when he took enough damage and he is also outmatched in speed so Eggman will pull up his wincons faster than him
@@hyperfairy7779They are not only illusions???? Like, you take death battle to face value?
“Enjoy your win, Mario fans. Your games are mid anyway”
Aaaand there it is 😭
Sonic fans are NEVER beating the salt allegations
Mario games are boring man, they put me to sleep, make me wanna 😴
Can't we just enjoy both? I'm a Sonic fan, yet I don't mind a little Mario Game once in a while
@@Unremarkable6969 And Sonic games only get one good game every 5 releases. And even those are usually jank fest or remakes.
@@maxentirunos fr bruh
@@maxentirunosmad that shadow generations was good
Sonic fans are an infinite source of salt lol
Ah, I see what you did there
True
And some how are below warthunder players that leak military data when they are mad when a tank or plane is not 1 to 1 of the real thing
aint no way a sonic fan is telling mario fans that their games are mid 💀
Mario games are boring.
@@Unremarkable6969 paper mario clears all sonic games
@@cheemsburger3184 bro even sticker star clears half the sonicc franchise
@@Unremarkable6969 Boooooooo!! Your mom! Boooooooo!! You're mid! Boooooooo!! You're comeback is terrible! Booooooooo!! Go cry over your mom's ashes! Boooooooooo!! You Sonic man child! Boooooooooo!!
@@shrek-itgamer6214okay that was childish
Metal Sonic was actually locked in that entire fight. Eggman kinda just watched for the most part.
And it's honestly a bit frustrating because Eggman _could_ have helped. He just needed to come down in one of his robots stronger than the Final Egg Blaster, something with scaling comparable to Metal. Like, at least the Egg Salamander.
No no. Giant Eggman Robot from the movie.
Good points but i disagree with sonic having immeasurable speed. I think him fixing time in sonic generations is just him running through levels again to restore time i dont think hes running fast enough to restore time
A respectable opinion
Granted the Tails' are saying in both Generations and the remaster that Sonic' SPEED is what's restoring Space-Time, so there's that.
Yeah most likely but Super Sonic would definitely have immeasurable because of the Solaris fight. The data book states that the trio fight in the past, present, and future. This would require either each member of the trio to travel to different points in time to fight Solaris, or the trio can straight up attack through time. Both would require immeasurable speeds and Solaris is able to shoot beams throughout time. Time eater also fights super sonic which would scale to Solaris. As well as fighting him in an infinite time stream at the end of time outside of reality. We see parts of the Sonics world fly within the tube and Time Eater is able to effect the time within it. Both of these feats would give Super Neo and Time eater immeasurable speed
I think he is immeasurable due to the fact his prior enemies were legit lightspeed or MFTL so yeah it's more consistent that way. And I personally think sonic using his speed to restore life plays into the god of the wind vibe. And is well done. To say a plumber who somehow is able to destroy a evil dinosaur with destructive powers but can't work a pipe better than luigi.
I think he is immeasurable due to......
Me being a sonic glazer
1:13 because animation is expensive. And also because the only reason this fight is an army fight at all, is because Moro essentially went, "Hold my Beer" if the fight was a traditional 1 on 1. They absolutely would have invluded stuff like the spatual displacement trap in the animation.
Regardless, fight animation was top tier
NO WAY a sonic fan is calling Mario games “mid”
Exactly
Mario games are boring man, they make me wanna just go 😴
@Unremarkable6969 me when I play any sonic game
Okay 👍
@@jovia6462
Just let bro have his opinion😔
Honestly death battle seems to often want to downplay sonic
Yeah that's just a given. Game Sonic characters especially have it the worst, Archie Sonic characters have it a bit better but it's still not great, like at all
It's because their bias about Sonic or any character from the franchise winning
@@Exeternal_Beyonder_Of_Doomsday You are aware they are massive Sonic fans, yes?
No, Sonic dweebs just tend to wank their characters and always get mad when they get a reality check.
@@someguy9970cry some more death battle dick rides mario
Sonic fan really said mario games are mid 😂
people really have diff opinions
how deluded
"Ur games are mid" Death Battle did yall so dirty, the crying is insane 😭😭😭
Mario games put me to sleep man
@Unremarkable6969 I wish I could say the same about Sonic games, but I fell asleep whilst waiting for the levels to load 😴
That's what happens when you play Shit Station
@Unremarkable6969 I'm on Xbox
My man 🤝
This is more "How come Eggman didn't get THIS weapon" than debunking
Its always the sonic pfps man 😭 😭 😭
Watch the damn video
15:10
You can debunk it by saying most of Eggmans army works like a hive mind under sage, who would have created millions of Battle plans for what ever Bowsers toops try, meaning they would have perfect coordination, the only exceptions being Metal sonic, infinite and non-robotic minions.
W
And you can debunk that argument by saying sage didn’t have any data against the koopa clan to form a efficient battle plan to begin with
That requires Sage to KNOW what all their abilities are. Sure, she could theorize, but not without concrete proof...which is kinda hard to do during a chaotic war.
@@colvamoon6962 @RedRance69 you both know that she can update her battle plans as the fight goes on? it's not like she's not gonna know what's happening she's an hyper advanced ai who formed a plan to take down the embodiment of death and destruction, she won't get overwhelmed and confused like a human, she'll be learning and adapting the battle plan as the battle goes on, Like how She updated the battle plan against the end, as the game went on she updated and adapted till she created a plan to beat the end, and it worked.
@@RedRance69 And it still doesn't change the fact the egg army is a hive mind, so there won't be any form of infighting or confusion, they will all be updating and processing this info at the same time, sending their data to Sage and the egg net to update the battle plan. that's how Ai work, the more data they get, the better they get at something.
16:34 Wow, that's the Hottest Take I've ever heard
Galaxy and Odyssey are Peak IMO
He would never understand
@@wongdang2💀💀💀💀
@@wongdang2 He legit said that galaxy is fun tho?
"Shadow The Hedgehog is the ultimate life form"
Bro he lost to Luigi 💀
When was this 🧐
Bro, half of this video is just whining on "why didn't they include this", instead of just going over the scaling first and saying that they underestimated certain equipment that Eggman had. Its also weird that you wish to say that you didn't want to get into Bowser's scaling here, but wish to say that Eggman wins, that is a coward plus you can't really call it a debunk at this point considering that this is all done in pure bias to Bowser. Besides it also not like you tried to stick by that statement in not scaling Bowser, since you still wanted to try and make an assertion about Bowser losing and that Eggman would win. At this point why even bother making the video if you're just not going to even cover the Mario side of things in regards to scaling, not like you need to answer as even you yourself admitted that you didn't know much, but still want to say Bowser wins talk about massive cognitive dissonance.
Holy yap man 🥱
@Unremarkable6969 holy yap man? Didn't you make a 20 minute video crying
not a bad idea
@@Unremarkable6969 you are a pro
They did in fact mention the egg salamander and the fact that the Chaos Emeralds and Sol Emeralds are universal threat
Yes I understand they didn’t say it directly but we can’t expect LITERALLY EVERYTHING they’ve ever done to be said in words or be featured in the animation
Sometimes we just have to let the black boxes and arsenal screens speak for themselves
Also a personal nit pick. Your comment of “proceeds to not use this in the fight” goes both ways because you know who else wasn’t in the fight? The Koopalings
That was an epic edit of Infinite though so props on that
Tbh, powerscaling sucks and everyone should already know this. Both fandoms want this character to win or that character to win. Just do it yourself if you're gonna burn someone else for doing what you want to do. They're obviously trying, and mind you, it depends on the author, writer, whatever you wanna call em. It depends on them to decide who wins.
Thwomp> I’m not weak I’m not weak I’m not weak!!!
What was your favorite part of this debunking video Billy?
I liked the part where they played that song really loud for a reeeeeeally loooong time
Wait... Since when is Bowser able to control Fury Bowser? I thought the ink was controlling hi
No clue but he's just anger
He doesn't exactly control it exactly
bowser jr dropped the paint...
@@ImperatoChri
I know, I don't say he can't access it with Jr's help.
What I'm talking about is that I thought Bowser couldn't control himself as Fury Bowser, not that he couldn't become Fury Bowser
Its already in de name fury bowser he was just mad af
He had someone to direct his anger to?
i soon as i saw the shadow pfp i knew what bro was about to do
Bro literally said that Mario games are mid.If he has an Mario games.Or read up on the lore.Don't make a deep bunk video unless you know both sides have a good day stop being child
So having a differing opinion makes me a child?
welp ig im a child again
Guess I'm a child for disliking linear platformers with mid side scrolling. Tbh I liked Galaxy and Odyssey but man don't sit here and tell me that the New Super Mario Bros and Mario Wonder aren't the same when they clearly are.
@@Unremarkable6969No.its the fact you are only scaling Eggman but not bowser and not seeing Bowser was also lowballed and didn't use his entire arsenal as well showing how biased you were
@@tmakster7748He's only scaling eggman since he obviously knows more about Sonic than deathbattle.
Bro here I am thinking, why didn’t they just make this fight a tie? Both are proven to have feats that are almost equal to one another. Couldn’t they have just set this up for a sequel between their troops with the aftermath being both Eggman and Bowsers death?
Because making it a tie is boring and defeats the point of having a DB. It can be funny like one. They've already done it before. This was a perfectly fine setup and had a conclusion that made sense.
@@MindForgedManacle Fair enough. I just miss those sort of battles that end up in the destruction of both sides. It could've set up into a battle where after the two mains are down, The minions and sidekicks pick up where they left off.
My personal opinion which could be wrong.
I thought that both would probably die and then in the future could arise something like "sage and the titans vs bowser jr and his brothers" something like that that could have some normal ending
Also you know robotnick has a good counter for the boos considering in sandopolis its shown that the animal capsules can trap ghost
Fight looked cool, Funny infinite death, and a video debunking the deathbattle video. What a wonderful day. Good vid
I loved this fight. Both are my to franchises, with me liking Sonic a bit more. I didn’t care how won but in the aftermath, I did kinda want Eggman to win. This is really close, but I do wish they showed more stuff from analysis for both sides, but especially Eggman. Also, with how close the matchup is, I do wish they went over some of the ways Eggman could’ve won, as they really only went over bowser’s counters.
Anyways, good vid, I’m surprised you didn’t really touch on sage.
Ps: peak animation, infinite got sold, and my goat Metal carried.
My favorite franchise isn't even Sonic tbh its Alien. Despite the name I bare.
To be honest the alternative scenarios did show us what would happen if Eggman brought out some other tools, plus let's not down play Mario scaling since they don't give a fuck about it whiich leads to the most absurd feats you can imagine.
But if I can say something about the whole thing, Sage was not that big of a help in Eggman's side in hindsight when compared to Bowser's side (Kamek, King Boo, Junior and Bowser himself had ways of breaking out of cyberspace. Also her thousands of scenarios can be proven wrong as they mentioned in the post analysis)
She could've used a robot to his side but they did not do that
@@Exeternal_Beyonder_Of_Doomsdaywhat’s stopping bowser from just turning said robot army into stone
Should also mention that outside of Bowser Jr none of the Koopalings made appearances in this battle. Also Bowsers Warships and Clowncars were also not really used.
Honestly this fight kinda reminds me of Saitama vs Popeye. Both of them were gag characters but Popeye had Toon Force which allowed him to just say "screw the rules of reality". While I do enjoy the Mario games, they definitely have some border-line, if not full-blown Toon Force shenanigans. Also before anyone says I'm coping or a Sonic fan, I actually agree with Death Battle's analysis on this fight, I'm just pointing out how ludicrous some of feats the Marioverse pulls off are.
@@topace1038 koopalings were part of the fight in the storyboard, Moro confirmed that they were cut due to budget as their scene would have cost too much for how short it was.
Time to debunk an entire video's scaling LMFAO. (before we get into this, if you try to respond with something like "holy shit yapathon," or "aint no way a bowser pfp is talking." please let it be known your obvious bias in this debate, and the fact that you are intentionally trying to imply that Sonic games are better even though that has literally almost never been the case in quality control.)
1. The reasons things like The Nega Wisp Armor, Spacial Displacement Trap, and Metal Virus didn't show up is because Bowser has a counter to all of them, they literally state this in the end of the video, these things can, and WILL go wrong against Bowser.
2. I agree with the Death Egg Robot statement, but they were calculating the average force of Eggman's tech, the Death Egg Robot in forces is a Super Badnik, something to be considered the peak of his army, a tank to him if you will. Your argument is that his machines are way stronger, no shit. They never said that it wasn't.
3. They literally bring up the Egg Salamander, and Egg-Wizard in his arsenal section of the video, they specifically say that its apart of his arsenal. The scaling still was in favor of Bowser, it didn't have to be included in the fight, the fight is literally made for the purpose of being flashy, the calculations between arsenals and trump cards, and feats. Happens before the Animation is made, because they need to decide a winner. These things, WERE accounted for. They simply lost in the war of attrition against The Koopa Kingdom.
4. The Egg-Dragoon's speed is entirely irrelevant to Bowser. The Egg-Dragoon being superior to the Egg-Wizard literally means nothing in the context of the Death Battle, they established (like ive stated.) That it would lose, along with the egg-salamander, and egg-wizard. During the calculations phase of the actual death battle. Let's go onto the actual scaling then?
First of all; Tails never states that Sonic can actually go at the pace of space and time, he states the acceleration is what causes space and time to be restored, that is not an immeasurable sonic speed feat, though they do exist and I will list them. Pre-Unleashed infact,
Sonic states, "Time may fly, but I'm even faster!" in Sonic & The Secret Rings, implying hes faster then time itself. Which is further confirmed in future games. Generations at-least confirms that his acceleration can fuck with time and space, not that hes faster then both, that is an immeasurable speed feat.
let's get into why it doesn't fucking matter: Bowser was traversing all of Dream Depot and wiping out each dream one by one--which are universes--casually, as evidenced by how he's talking about his plan and such, before destroying Dream Depot itself. Misstar then says "at this rate, he'll destroy the dream worlds one by one." She goes on to say that Mario must protect everyone's dreams. This means Bowser was casually moving at a rate that would allow him to destroy an uncountable set of uncountably infinite universes. Not to mention; said Universes can be conceptually in a higher plane, It's stated in Dream Team by Dreambert that inside of dreams, he can "Sense a higher plane of consciousness.". Which confirms that the Dream Depot, which is contingent to all dreams, would be able to create Higher Levels of World, dreams and wishes have no form, and are immaterial, hence they cannot qualify for dimensional transcendence. Making it a feat of Conceptual Transcendence, and Bowser was casually destroying the entire conceptually transcending dream depot with his speed and strength alone. To continue, The Dream and Dark Stone can grant any wish, scaling off of the dream depot, and high levels of consciousness, this would mean they have meta wish granting hax, that Bowser possessed when he was Dreamy Bowser. so here's some proof of three things, his physical stats, the fact the egg-dragoon could not fucking surpass him or speedblitz him, and the fact the dream stone and star rod are busted as fuck.
5. The didn't use the hardboiled heavies because the animation was made off of what was ment to look flashy, they were again. accounted for, and considered weaker.
6. Again, if Metal Sonic has 'immeasurable speed' Bowser is conceptually transcending him in all sense of the word. What kind of correlation is them flashing another screenshot while explaining something different mean base scales. LOL
7. If you highball the phantom ruby, you COULD get it to 1-A.(Boundless scaling is actual fucking cap LMFAO.) The issue with that is; The DREAM Depot is 1-A. And Bowser is infinitely superior to that shit, in Mario Party 5. He has gotten way stronger, he canonically has accelerated developement. he is literally starchild.
8. Lowballing infinite is crazy, in a Sonic glaze video too, he'd scale to Modern Sonic during Forces, who again, COULD be scaled to 1-A. Infinitely superior to Erazor Djinn, who does have 1-A Scaling, aswell as Maginaryland scaling. Even WITH that, However. Bowser still fucking soloes, he has conceptual transcendence, and dimension transcendence because of Cutout from Paper Mario, When Mario activates his Cutout technique, he transcends the boundaries of space and time alongside dimensions, and travels to a realm outside of their universe where he can cut out pieces of the background via access to transdimensional scissors that allow him to uncover secrets via this cutting. This would also imply Mario transcends dimensionality through this technique, since if he’s transcending the very boundaries of space and time (alongside multiple dimensions), he must be transcending anything that exists within/is bound by space and time, and since dimensionality (the totality of dimensions) is comprised of spatial extents dimensionality itself would be within space and time, and thus within its boundaries, logically implying that Cutout transcends dimensionality [Beyond-Dimensional Physiology, Dimensional Travel, Spatial Manipulation, Background Manipulation]. The space that Mario performs Cutout on is implied to be apart of the cosmic ether of the universe. also scaling the universe to 1-A. as the realm’s ether is within the universe (certain parts of the Cutout Realm lie within the universe, which are interacted with from areas of the realm outside of the universe). Bowser effortlessly scales to these things, those scissors aren't even considered an actual threat to him. Let alone the strongest artifact hes surpassed.
9. Again, lowballing the sonicverse is crazy. The Time Eater COULD do those things, its just that Bowser is infinitely superior.
10. Infinite IS stronger then Solaris, and Time Eater. He's just NOT stronger then Bowser LMFAO.
11. The reason they didn't give it to him is because it isn't something he'd have on hand in an actual battle, he'd have to specifically charge it to fight Bowser for literal weeks and even then Bowser fucking trounces it and moves on to the next problem. If we're arguing that shit can just be given to certain characters, Bowser shouldn't have even been able to get scratched this fight, because with the Star Rod he wished to be unstoppable. Comparing Lightman, a form that requires charge, to Chance Time, which is something Kamek can deadass just do, along with all of his other busted abilities, (reality warping, mind control, paperization, and raw magic,)
12. Omnipresence, CAN be scaled to speed, if your everywhere all at once, you are everywhere, you can exist anywhere at any point, instantly. Which is why it could be scaled to speed. Again, even if he's Immeasurable speed. It's irrelevant, they even state this in the death battle. That speed wouldn't help Eggman LMFAO.
13. Bowser doesn't have inaccessible speed, he has IRRELEVANT speed. Which is a tier that is beyond immeasurable, he's beyond concepts, such as distance, aspatial, or atemporal. He's comparable to Mario, who can run across Superspace Bridge, superspace is a space of infinitely many dimensions postulated to contain actual space-time and all possible spaces. And Mario casually jogged through it, this just adds to the cosmology, since Superspace Bridge is a casual galaxy. Also, Bowser scales off M-Power. Aesthetic details indicate string theory such as lineland, not to mention equations are literally seen apart of dimensions in super paper mario. The Void WAS going to destroy mathematical dimensions. Scaling to 5D is chump scaling, and again lowballing the Sonicverse LMFAO.
14. "Bowser scales to 4D at best." This along with the fact you've admitted that you haven't actually tried to find shit related to his scaling just proves everyones point, you are bias against one side and have no clue about the other. Bowser is literally a dimensional transcending character.
15. "Spatial displacement is never implied to have such a weakness," your right, it's not implied too. The comic literally shows that it fucked up and didn't do what it was ment to do, which is what they're stating. Their is a difference between technology that transmutates and magic, Bowser could literally reverse the process, and It's obvious Eggman didn't have any forcesight to do so, that's literally the entire point of why Starline betrayed him. Meanwhile, Bowser. Could literally turn them back at any point. "Even beyond that, the metal virus isn't that easy to get rid of." Yes it is, to characters who can turn any other character into anything else. yes it is, not to mention if you actually did you research you'd know the Metal Virus could literally be danced away, (DDR Mario Mix has subatomic manipulation, Bowser literally has that power in his soul. If Bowser wanted to get rid of it, it's deadass as simple as dancing.)
16. "Am I gonna get unironic comments from Mario fans saying that this is supposed to be taken completely seriously?" Yes, yes you are. because if you did your research, you'd know that it WAS ment to be taken in context, the entire Minigame is dedicated to Bowser proving it, he makes monsters out of massive chemicals, not to mention; Bowser canonically leads a hyper specific army according to SMB3's manual, he has built shit like the Dark Matter Reactor, which casually erased things from existence, the Galaxy Reactor, which can recreate the entire universe several times over. (It's stated to decide the Fate of the Universe, twice, both ingame and in the manual, Luigi also says that if Bowser isn't stopped the universe falls into his claws.) He built a space station that can casually chill next to the sun, (not impressive, but Eggman has built worse LMFAO.) He canonically has a fucking doctorate, he created a bubble machine that could trap even Mario, who again, scales off all of this shit I JUST stated. (I don't care about your Mario VS Sonic debunking video, fyi. LMFAO.)
17. "The only thing that can counter the phantom ruby is the phantom ruby itself," yeah. In the fucking verse? The Star Rod is superior to the star spirits who guard and created the dream depot, which again, could be scaled to 1-A casually. The Star Rod is so strong it even beat Bowser, Bowser could literally one shot that thing, even with its highball 1-A Infinitely superior scaling, Mario's cosmology is just more specific.
18. The reason they didn't include lightman was because it would be impossible for the Doctor to have him, same reason they didn't include shit like Dark Paint Bowser (different from Fury bowser.)
19. The Chaos emeralds have infinite power, but so do fucking stars LMFAO, Stars have regularly been able to create shit on the level of Galaxies, baby stars (luma's) literally ARE galaxies, not only would stars be able to counter chaos emeralds, they have created Big Boo's, who in mario 64's manual are stated to be extradimensional threats that Mario casually sends packing, stars also created dimensions with time and space, demonstrated by tick tock clock being reflected by time, Stars can create entire universes, (Worlds= Universes in Mario, similarly to the Sonicverse.), Mario deadass says that Bobomb Battlefield is identical to his world. The Grand Star is almost infinitely superior to regular stars or the big star, it would effortlessly scale past the chaos emeralds, not to MENTION their in abundance. Like you've stated, "no matter how many finite things you have, you will never be able to counter an infinite thing." except those 'finite things' are also infinite in power and have layered transcendence LMFAO.
20. Eggman has literally proved he is willing to take things on a universal scale, the reason he doesn't is because they have to keep it grounded to Sonic's world LMFAO. The conquering thing doesn't make sense at all,
W
bowser dogwalked eggman
W, you cooked
how much you guys wanna bet he's gonna cope so hard he deletes the comment
Ok, I get it. Egg man was a little misrepresented. He still would have lost. Did you forget the part where bowser could alter reality across the universe.
The Time Eater LITERALLY DESTROYS TIME AND SPACE, and the Super form is a walking anti-hax with anti-erasure resistance.
@@Unremarkable6969 So does Wonder Bowser
Super Neo Metal go brrrrr
Honestly for powers saying that eggman needed to swap in between suits, I believe that he could pull an iron man with sage and have her pilot it (I mean he says she can in frontiers and there’s no reason to think she can’t do it herself) so even then it’s a draw as they can use the powers to their full capacity
Hmmmmmm 🤔
Didn't think of that
Besides Sage kinda intangible so she might not get hit or something
If mine memoey is corect in sonic 3 he put some egg robot's to control sone od his old boss robot's so I gess he could just put one of them to control the robot's
See, he says that, but we never SEE it happen. So it's a lot like this death battle.
In THEORY, it could happen, but we haven't had it confirmed.
@@colvamoon6962ik but with her aiding Sonic and even piloting a titan to help Sonic it’s not out of possibility for her to pilot any of the more higher end robots, like the one in rush
Any chance you had of appearing unbiased went out the window the moment you wrote off all the Mario games as 'mid'. I love both the classic Mario AND Sonic games and that was just petty of you.
Mario is boring to me. Galaxy is fun, and 64 was undoubtedly revolutionary. But I get nothing out of them. In one ear, out the other.
@@Unremarkable6969 My point is you dishonor both franchises.
No matter how powerful Bowser is with feats,magic,scaling,durability....I'll still always love Eggman no matter what. Since childhood he was my favorite villain & I'm not only like Eggman than other character in Sonic universe.
He always makes me smile whenever he appears & he never goes away.
Bowser couldn't win without Jr. Or changing time either. Bowser literally died twice,once by Neo Metal Sonic & again by the Death Egg Laser Blast.
If Sage in the future obtains magical abilities,somehow bringing Eggman back to life & call it the Egg-shell skeleton or counter Jr.s wand with (Egg-Wand or something) he could turn Bowser,Jr & his army into scrap metal.
I love Eggman no matter what & death battle isn't the end & be all or cannon. As Canonicaly Eggman & Bowser are friends & took the London signts together.
GG the Eggman Empire-
Yes, but you could also say that without metal Sonic Eggman would have lost much earlier.
And he didn't die twice. The first time was only a "knockout" and the second time... is it really a death
when you become Dry Bowser? I'm not sure about that😅
@Nunchchucks Not true.
Neo Metal Sonic went right through his body & Bowser was down. Jr had to revive him. & that blast from the laser ripped right through the fury form into the bones.
The whole "knockout" may not even be reliable anyway since all we know is Eggman has multiple decoys and just left entirely.
It's pointless to discuss this as what's done is done & I could care less.
As for the skeleton thing, hence why I mentioned there should now be a "Egg skeleton" version of Eggman & Egg wand to counter Kamek & Jr
Sega has already made Eggman turn super,used a nightmare version of him,may as well make a third form where he's a cartoony skeleton body of him but still has his mustache. It could very well happen.
Metal Sonic definitely did carry the fight & made the fight last longer, but the point still stands. If Metal wasn't added, then they would have just had Sage bring out all the titans.
That's all I'm saying & I'm not going to get into it.
Its funny how sonic fans are coming up with the most random scenarios to make their characters win
@@PokyDaBesto what random cenarios tho? I see valid ones, some more wow then others but still valid, cant people question the results just because the animation was peak?
@@Kurouso2099 look at the third pharagraph of the comment (cant really tell if its serious or if its a joke) and yea the animation in this db is absolute peak, my favourite one so far
I sided with Bowser at the beginning, but even after he won I still felt that Eggman and his team were limited on what they can do. Not to mention the song lyrics and cover immediately made people realize that Bowser was going to win at the end
How were they limited? They had the Phantom Ruby and all the Emeralds from the jump.
If they got any more than that, then they'd be limiting Bowser since he wasn't given any reality warping items he's had.
@@MindForgedManacle The Phantom Ruby prototypes, the Sonic Shuffle items if we're going by DB logic, the Power of the Stars, and the list likely includes more.
@@riomo4076 You have to be specific. They explained why they didn't give Eggman the prototypes (they're hard countered by the Wonder Flower, which is a universal reality warper).
What Sonic Shuffle item? Chance Time is literally just Kamek using his teleportation power, it's not a board game mechanic thing.
Again, they had the ruby and all the Emeralds from the start. Bowser had, what, 1 Grand Star? Come on dude, limited my foot.
@@MindForgedManacleThey also argued that the Phantom Ruby only warps perception, When its got more than that (teleportation and warping). The fake ruby at the end of Forces alone created a literal sun, as well as warping character to a different realm. Also they wouldve given Bowser more of the stars since they mentioned multiple existing while unfortunately only the emeralds are limited to just seven. I also feel like they kinda downplayed Eggman but I still agree with Bowser winning
@@Linear_Line_423 They downplayed Eggman but still Time Eater just counters many things since:
-Its a primordial entity which exists in nothingness which makes it immune to any means of Magic
-Put the Chaos Emeralds in a limbo in Gens meaning it could do the same for The Stars
-Took Super Forms to harm it but still was able to harm said Super Forms
-Is able to bring back past Villains and potentially pit Bowser against em
-Brought back Mephiles
or if we bring back The Time Stones which Eggman could also have...meaning he is far superior with Time Hax. He could also have The Egg Wizard which would also mean an instant win. If you don't know the Egg Wizard search it up. Its basically what Dreamy Bowser is supposed to be. Also, Nightmare Eggman kinda has no counter
Honestly, I feel like Death Battle said it best themself, Eggman feels more grounded in reality (As close to grounded in reality a balding man fighting a Mach speed hedgehog can be, anyways.) while Bowser feels more cartoonishly strong.
good video! i've always been a supporter of the idea that characters like infinite, sage (when piloting supreme), and super neo metal should be stronger than solaris with accurate scaling, so it's nice to see that acknowledged for once. having multiple super sonic-tier creations on eggman's side made bowser's win hard to justify for me.
Infinite dying was honestly literally insanely absurd 😭
Holy shit dude the bias is crazy, stop the cope there is no counter for being wished away besides Peach’s magic 😭
"Bias"
Okay 😒
U have a shadow pfp ur biased gang its ok@@Unremarkable6969
The chaos Emerald protects the user From getting erase
@@axillaryclinicalNo, I don’t think there’s an answer of that, because we never see the chaos emeralds done that in games?
@@Uesr2004D yes Time Eater affected by multiple timelines, The chaos emerald that has shown multiple times to protect the user From getting erase to being affected by magic, it will continue to make you stronger
solaris was erasing timelines and universes but could not effect supersonic Shadow and silver
Man, I am a Sonic fan and even I can see that you're so salty lmao. I do agree with them that Bowser likely wins in this scenario, I do in fact think they did a pretty good job, because this fight never was about physical stats, it was about who had the most haxiest abilities and armies (Yes this was confirmed to be an army fight before the episode even released so... Gotta Go Inform Yourself), since both could scale to basically the same amount of power and immesuarable speeds (no, I won't take your take of "Mario scaling only to 4D" as granted since they are ways to get him way above that). I disagree with your opinion, but I won't be an asshole bout it, after all, we all have different opinions on these kind of subjective debates don't we?
@@omegaaklx303 Dude ain't no way you type this Thinking that you're right
What kinda argument is this.
@@Yuh_zhimmy A simple argument: Bowser has better abilities, so he won.
dang this is some stupid shit coming from a 100% classified sonic fan
Not only are there ways to get Mario characters at 5D or more with generous scaling but using the same bad faith often used by Sonic fans would stop the Sonic verse at 4D too.
How do you think a no allies throwdown would go? I can't reason over the visual image of Bowser landing a hook directly at Eggman's face.
infinite: this is power without peer. it is the ultimate strength.
thwomp: shut up nerd!
Death Battle just loves to downplay Sonic Characters
Fr, first in DK vs knuckles, they didn't even allow knuckles to use his super form (even though that was clearly his trump card)
In sonic vs mario, they claim sonic is only hypersonic
What's next Wario can beat Shadow the hedgehog?? 💀
They either heavily nerf a character or just straight up gaslight you when it comes to their feats
Tbf, DK and Knuckles didn’t get super forms because like in the first MvS vid, they said their power up’s and transformations counter each other
And just like Luigi Vs Tails. Both fights only gave them items that was unique to them
As for Sonic Not being faster than light.. yeah that was bad research back then. But at least they believe it now
I really want to like this episode of Death Battle, I really do. The animation & music is so good, the fight it depicts is epic, and frankly the community is so generally wholesome about this episode that I really don't want to bring everybody down because I feel they guy was rooting for lost without being depicted at his best...
...But I don't think this comment section will care: so man does it _suck_ that Eggman wasn't depicted at his best! I mean for one, the analysis and stats only really touched on base level Sonic stuff, not really touching on any Super Sonic scaling besides one Speed feat; and it wasn't even his best finite speed feat. (Sure they didn't touch of Paper Mario scaling either; but that just means this is like Mario vs Sonic 2018 again, where they were both town/city level. Not as bad a downplay, but both were downplayed and not taken at their best nonetheless, so stat comparisons kind of end up meaningless).
They gave Eggman intelligence but didn't really show that working for him by planning anything clever or using his resources better than Bowser.
They just kind of wrote off a lot of abilities at the Eggman empire's disposal (such as Metal's bio-data copying) if Bowser had a counter, but would let anything Bowser had be considered without a hitch (such as Kamek's ability sealing) even if Eggman had a counter (like the Chaos Emeralds' restoration powers).
A lot of powers they had in common was considered to cancel each other out, even if Eggman's were better (such as having better immeasurable speed arguments or superior time manipulation.)
And they didn't really consider what I feel is Eggman's biggest advantage in this fight: the fact that he can play all of his trump cards at once using Egg-Robo pilots. Like sure, they've proven base Koopa Kingdom beats base Eggman Empire, and yes, Bowser can theoretically one-shot the Time Eater _or_ Super Eggman with the right counter in hand...but what about both at once? What if they were accompanied by the Egg Wizard, Egg Salamander, & Metal Overlord? Maybe even Supreme? How about if we gave Sage all 4 Titans? All while Metal makes actual use of the Chaos Emeralds' powers while Sage makes use of Cyber Space?
Those alternate scenarios showed Bowser at his best could take out, eh...10~20% of the best Eggman could've put forth, but could he have faced all of that?
Doesn't feel like it. Feels like Madara vs Aizen; where the loser's best options/powers isn't taken into consideration, leaving the impression the winner would get totally destroyed if they were.
And even accuracy aside; it just sucks that neither Eggman, nor Bowser, got to use their best stuff in the actual fight. We only saw a snippet of Super Eggman getting one-tapped (by something he really should have been able to counter) and that was it. When are we ever going to get another chance at seeing the Eggman Empire at it's best? In a Wily rematch? That solar-level at best punk?
Sigh. Well maybe one day someone will make a big Eggman vs Bowser army fight animation where Eggman actually wins and it'll make up for him getting downplayed so bad here. A man can hope.
Sonic fans calling Mario games mid are hilarious. He out sell, out preforms, and does everything better then sonic. Cope
Santa you are speaking more facts in this comment than this fraud's entire video
Quality does not correlate with financial success
About king boo: The reason why it wouldn't work because the phantom ruby very specifically targets the perception of someone. Causing it to fuck with one's mind and think it's real when it really isn't. This is even the case for his gravity manipulation. But even if we give him the gravity manipulation, the issue here is that it wouldn't effect king boo. He's a ghost that doesn't fall under the laws of gravity.
It’s stated multiple times in Sonic forces how the Ruby targets your brain
Plus the second the phantom ruby activates, King boo is gonna EXACTLY know how it works as it works very similar if not exactly like his magic.
The absolute copium I am witnessing, is magnificent. It's also js, blatantly wrong. I could explain it to you if you'd like. Since you clearly couldn't find any actual evidence on why you scaled mario's side entirely wrong.
W Hitman
Heh
fr, the copium is radiating through the screen
@@Lightingran95 So real.
Considering this guys favorite is infinite, he prolly got butthurt that he got one shotted by a thwomp, edgy ass guy bruh. This guy is absolutely pathetic, getting mauled in his own comment section, almost feel bad cause he keeps doing it to himself at this point. His bias is through the roof, now im just assuming that infinite is his favorite since he made a whole edit about him.
Also they made the chaos emeralds have less power then it has (the chaos emeralds can let the user wish for one thing as well as the master emerald which they didn't use for some reason)
Also canonically they negate magic and negative affects as proven in the comics
I knew it Sonic fans would debunk this video
Awww shoot I might sound like a Mario fanboy
Maybe Death Battle high balled Bowser into composite
@@noahalcantar2431 Well to find out that's why we double check work
@External_Beyonder_Of_Doomsday I can't tell if Bowser is high outerversal or Multiversal+
@@noahalcantar2431 They're both a soft composite actually, just ignoring Archie and Mario-Kun
And they didn't give him Cyber Bots from Frontiers and Supreme Titan. Don't argue about Supreme because Sage was riding it.
Not eggman creation
Oh no that stuff isn’t Eggman copyrighted nor has Eggman shown he owns any of that after Frontiers. If a game later does show that then fine, but right now there’s nothing.
@@wyllgalaxy1009yea but sage still can use it, its apart of sages arsenal
@@hiddenflare6169eggman doesnt own the chaos emeralds but they still used it, if they can use it and it can be done then they can use it
@@hiddenflare6169thats like saying sonic cant turn super in a battle bc he doesnt own the emeralds
To be fair, as a Mario fan who roughly agrees with Death Battle there, (you could argue DB lowballed them both but you can almost always do that with them) I actually enjoyed this video. It’s rare to see Sonic fans actually elaborating arguments instead of insulting those who do not agree or using fallacies like "Sonic is more serious" as if it meant anything from my experience.
Here are some points I kind of don’t agree with:
- You mention that Bowser doesn’t have arguments for immeasurable speed when he clearly does. Since you mentioned that scaling to Solaris, a being explicitly above space and time, makes a character capable of immeasurable speed, Bowser should also reach that level via being comparable to Super Dimentio who can destroy reality as we know it and explicitly scales above space and time too.
- For the Metal Virus, I don’t really agree that it bypasses reality warping as it is not shown to do so in the comic itself. (The characters capable of reality warping seems to just not think about it.) Even if I did agree, Bowser would only need a wish from the Dream Stone or Star Rod to avoid that problem for both him and his armies.
- I think you definitively overhyped Infinite in your analysis. Sure, we can argue about it maybe being a result of Sonic Forces’ ass writing but it cannot be denied that Infinite is still a base Sonic victim in the game. We need a lot of statement fallacies and generous assumptions to even get him at the Egg Dragoon level.
- The statement about Sonic getting faster every second is most likely an hyperbole and not a fact and this is why. If you argue that Sonic gets exponentially faster and thus stronger every second, then classic Sonic would be beyond fodder to modern Sonic during Sonic Generations when they are portrayed to be of roughly similar power levels. (You can argue modern Sonic is stronger to which I would agree but the gap cannot be that big or else classic Sonic wouldn’t even be relevant to the Time Eater.) Classic Sonic cannot have outgrown Time Eater either as he will grow into modern Sonic that will defeat him with the help of his past self one day.
They also forgot a few points for Bowser making his win more likely:
- The Retry Clock allows Bowser to restart a fight with the knowledge acquired from his last try. Bowser would have multiple tries at beating Eggman even if he fails a few times making his win cons more and more likely.
- I am pretty sure that the point DB was making is that the Chaos Emeralds may have infinite power in the sense that they cannot run out of energy but they still have a somewhat limited maximal output that would be around that of the Grand Stars so while they could outlast the Grand Stars in the long run, they would take too much time to do so for it to really matter. Think of as how the cyborgs from DBZ have infinite ki reserves and never get tired but would still get demolished by Cell.
- They didn’t mention Bowser’s feat of being amongst the crew which defeated Super Dimentio. These are some of the strongest arguments for Bowser’s immeasurable speed scaling and transcendence of space and time making it impossible for beings like the Time Eater to easily get rid of him.
- I think what they were trying to convey with Bowser’s army is that their reach and scale is much bigger. (Thus the conquest comparison) We have no concrete proof that Eggman wields enough robots to exert power amongst all of the known universe while Bowser made himself emperor of the universe twice in a short time and his army was in control of those conquests. They also had an advantage in unpredictability taking into account the fact that they can use Mario power ups.
It's kinda sad how the only way you can get views is by crying for 20 minutes
Of course...because thoroughly explaining how this fight could've gone another way after team Eggman clearly got wanked in many ways *totally* defines crying. Just another ignorant rage baiter you are.
@grimsharky3381 and you are just another blind sonic fan copping as hard as they can (you also have a roblox pfp so your opinion means nothing to me)
@@Jason-k1n Just because for the most part I agree with this debunk doesn't mean that I'm "coping". I also don't think that the most obvious Gintama simp is in any position to talk about my pfp.
Bro what it's a video how is he crying dogs just explaining on how he thinks eggman would have won this fight can a man not have opinion on something without it being classified as crying 😕
13:58 Thats a no limit fallacy
That's a fallacy fallacy
Wrong stamp my bad. Just rewind like ten seconds
Nah you're chill
Not exactly. The ruby has consistently shown to be able to negate/counter high power house gems like the master emerald and chaos emeralds. Gems which can alter reality or negate reality manipulation exactly like the wonder flower and so on. Yet despite this only the phantom ruby is consistently shown to the best counter for the ruby itself.
Thank you for salt. I needed them for my fries
I know a RWBY pfp ain't talking
@@Unremarkable6969I know the one with the shadow pfp ain't talking
Damn 😒
@@Harold-gl1ngdamn, beat me to the comeback.
@@Harold-gl1ng Shadow the hedgehog is cool asf tho. what's ur point?
Kamek having chance time isn’t something wrong
Miyamoto itself said that all of Mario is canon (except Mario hotel) and kamek stick can just teleport things by himself or king boo (and even regular boo’s) can become intangible grab object and become intangible with the object itself so stealing things is a good and great wincon
Also since e Mario cosmology is so weird with potential infinite multiverses or hyper verses is scaling is actually close to sonic
this was a cool ass video, i appreciate watching stuff like this that clearly takes a lot of info and showcases it in a clear and appreciable way. props
Ngl if Mario games are mid then sonic games are garbage 💀
Like bro, you didn’t have to say that just cause your favorite video game series lost
Mario games are boring man, in one ear and out the other