After thousands of women hated on a sexual harassment victim and defended a male faux feminist I'd say so. I'd say that my comment aged pretty well considering. I'm not happy about it, though.
Babygirlifying men or anyone is just putting them on a pedestal. Adoring the idea of someone, rather than seeing them for who they are. I've seen women excuse rape because their babygirlified man did it. It's harmful.
women always put boys and men on pedestals and will be happy to see other women mistreated because 'omg he's so amazing'. it's how we're raised - to adore men and villainise women.
@babypicassoeisenstein In the context of the family and relatives yes on a broader scale no. I’ve met lots of women as a kid that treated men horribly and were never punished for it. On the flip side I was always treated well by the women in my family, relatives and sometimes the mothers of friends I had. Some mothers couldn’t stand me and were cold to me. On a larger scale, society, men seem to be obsessed over when it comes to achievements our society holds dear but everytime a woman does it, she’s revered for it although I admit it’s more of a recent phenomenon.
It’s scary - I think of all the male celebrities in general who are put on that pedestal and they worship the idea of the guy (and then tear down any woman who dares to challenge that idea by sharing her negative experience with him)
As a gay man, it's just very telling to me that these straight men are being rewarded for being emotional, but if a gay, feminine man does it, it's somehow worthy of being ridiculed instead. Also any actor can talk the talk and can claim to be an ally, but if they don't stand with us when it comes to fighting for our rights, then they were never our ally
As a woman who works professionally in the UK theatre scene, I do actually prefer the term actor, but this is because of a language difference. English isn’t as gendered, so having gender neutral terminology for professions just makes sense to me. Because anyone of any gender can be an actor. We don’t call women doctors “doctresses”. And what would be the right term for nb folk? Idk I think I understand why he corrected himself in that instance cuz I think many performers prefer actor.
The origin of "gender neutral" (not really, even if they've come to that) professions in English is the same as masculine forms in French or Spanish. Even in English where gender is usually not marked, it wasn't marked because masculine=universal, and feminine=marked. That is, the reason why you find actress is because there WERE female actors, just as the reason why seamstress and waitress exist. But the reason why you do not find "judgess" is not because the word judge is more inclusive, but because there simply WEREN'T female judges, and what's more, because probably the users resisted the notion of a female word for a position they didn't even agree women should occupy. It's the same case for doctor, president, captain, etc. even if language users are resignifying those words as neutral (and hey, I'm super on board) it's good to be aware of why people might have different takes on gendered language, or why they might be trying to do something which other people see as going backwards (e.i: using feminine suffixes to mark gender). Nevertheless, yep, English is so much better when it comes to using gender neutral language and including NB people. Spanish is terrible for that 😕
I don't think there would've been anything to point out, if Andrew had only used the word "actor" instead of correcting "actress" to "actor" as a way to (in his mind) elevate Emma. Plus what the person above me said is also true.
@@agentwrench a major problem seems to me to be whether you view language as forming culture. in german, we had just the masculine/neutral terms and then added a feminine for almost all professions, but there are many people now who believe thats not enough, that language has to be changed first to motivate societal change later. essentially enforce language of the ideal society in the future, that can be moved towards. those people are strongly pressuring for a third version that combines both into a linguistically unique but unwieldly „neutral“ term. this calls into question whether adding feminine counterparts really is inclusive in the first place because it draws more attention to sex/gender rather than less and splits members of any profession along those lines. i don’t see how much is gained there, when the obvious alternative is that you simply take steps in true equality on a societal level which then shifts the meaning of words to match what society believes rather than the other way around.
I'm happy that you ended your video in the way you did. I definetely identify my past self with the "profem" kind of guy that thinks he is a feminist and recognizes that the system is patriarchal, yet is unable to see his own sexist behaviours and thoughts. The fact that those behaviours and learned patterns can ever arise without notice, and that it's basically impossible to truly "unlearn" stuff that you learned as a child kind of scares me. I feel like I always have to be on my toes about not being more condescendent or dismissive towards women than I am towards other men. Seeing how difficult this can be to change even on yourself makes you wonder if we will have any chance to change it at all on society as a whole, so it can get disheartening. That's why I want to thank you for recognizing that some of us are actually trying. Thank you. PS: Even after writing this I feel like I'm victimizing myself somehow here and making this about me, but I figure this is the best video to do that after all.
I understand that. Somewhat related point, I'm a trans woman. I've known I felt as a girl all my life, and I've only lived as once since I was 17, and I have had to try to unlearn and make up for so many thoughts and behaviors, both in relation to other women and to myself. In the beginning, I really struggled with the fact that I was good at math, and that I am outspoken in my opinions, because deep inside, I didn't consider that to be "feminine" enough. And I still sometimes end up with these thoughts in my mind, subconsciously expecting a woman to be worse or less intelligent. Of course you can't just undo an entire childhood of being raised as a boy. And it annoys me that the wider trans community refuses to see that. I see so much sexism from other trans women, mostly directed at themselves, but sometimes directed at other women as well. Often they're imagining womanhood through the platonic ideal of the cutesy anime girl, small, doesn't think, keeps her mouth shut. Or if you can't be a cutesy anime girl, you're the dominant sexual anime mommy, and those are the only two acceptable ways to be a woman. I've experienced my fair share of unwanted, creepy, boundary crossing sexualization, but being called "mommy" out of nowhere by trans women I've just met is a special flavor of uncomfortable. All this to say, if I ever point this out to other trans women, I'm usually met with this argument (that I've condensed and paraphrased), "I can't be sexist, I'm a woman. And if you insinuate that I have sexist thoughts or behaviors, you're saying I'm not a real woman, and you're a transphobe!" I think it is SO, SO important for anyone who has been socialized as male to look at their own biases and behavior with a critical lens. I don't think that just because you're being oppressed in one way, it gives you the right to uncritically perpetuate another kind of oppression (one that affects you as well). And it saddens and annoys me that the wider trans community has such a limited and sexist view of womanhood, born from male socialization, that they refuse to re-evaluate. I actually don't engage with any trans community anymore. idk, I thought this would add something to your comment because it's the same kind of problem, but from a different community
I'm a woman but I'm constantly checking myself to see if my emotional response to people isn't affected by the sexism that might have unconsciously entered my brain. it makes sense specially if you're not a woman or aren't faced with sexism yourself. or if you feel different from most women even.
@@Sina-dv1eg thanks for saying this. sexist women make me really uncomfortable and like I kinda also pity them so I tend to not be as harsh to them.(though the fact that they're tractors to they're own gender makes me more angry) but everyone man or woman is responsible for the sexism that exists in society. also trans women as you said are socialized as men and they might not understand as deeply how sexism effects women cause they didn't have that experience of being a little girl and facing sexism which is way more frustrating if than if you are an adult.
I think it’s about accepting that we’ll never be perfect in our lifetime, but should still work to be better. Then society throughout the years will move forwards as a whole.
i liked this reply, especially your seeing how talking about your understanding of masculinity can sort of have ulterior motivations. i think women are so desperate for “good men”, but to accept that patriarchy is systemic is to accept that the line between good and bad is unclear. we’re born into patterns, systems, and institutions that disproportionately impact certain ppl. we shouldn’t frame our feminism in the impulse to wash out hands of sin. we can just strive to be a little better, to admit that conflict and disagreement will always be a natural consequence of power imbalance.
'Feminism is for Everyone' and 'The Will to Change' both by Bell Hooks were pretty influential to my own personal softening to the label feminism after growing up in a socially conservative religious environment. I've really respected how Andrew Garfield has carried himself throughout his career and most recently has been a positive role model for healthy emotional expression. I don't agree with his binary way of talking about male and female energy as I don't think it's helpful to artificially subject actions to that framework. I'm glad he's at least talking about such things though because it opens up people who may follow him for his status as a previous Spiderman actor to potentially consider a little more gender discourse than they otherwise might have.
feminism is for women. saying that feminism is for everybody is the exact same bullshit as saying “all lives matter!” in response to black lives matter. why must women be expected to include their oppressors in their OWN liberation movement?
@@federicadefilippi4680 I was just thinking that!! I find it as ridiculous as OP mentioned it. Also, hola! Qué lindo encontrar otra gente que habla español viento los videos de Alice ❤
I recently had an experience where a man in an art class was repeatedly drawing me without my consent and in a slightly sexualized way. It made me uncomfortable and I told him to stop, but now others in the class are wary of me because he is soft babygirl and I am the evil dragon who stomped on him. We are at a point in culture where masculinity is softening and broadening in style, but not in application. Just because a man embraces a different masculine ideal does not mean they are a feminist ally or even that they respect the feminist ideals they say they support. Ironically, it only means that women will put them on a higher pedestal, feel more comfortable around them, and be less disappointed when they fail.
Hey i think your comment is very interesting, but im having a hard time understanding what you mean by saying that masculinity is broadening and softening in style but not in application. Do you mean that men who softened their "style" of masculinity are engaging in a sort of performance of feminism, but do not actually have an interest in changing the status quo? I would be happy about a clarification/explanation because your use of the words style and application really interested me and i think it would help me to grasp the concepts in the video better aswel.
@ thank you Louis! To clarify: by softening I mean that modern masculinity is allowing for more nuanced gender expression. Men like Timothee Chalamet and Andrew Garfield, who cry easily, have gentle & kind demeanors, and incorporate traditionally ‘feminine’ items into their wardrobe, are examples of the change. In pop culture these men are affectionately called ‘baby girl’, but whenever I’ve seen this happen in real life, it is accompanied by an over-forgiveness of problematic behavior. It’s like ‘oh, X is a crier, he reads women’s books, he accepts everyone, so what if he says problematic things and makes people uncomfortable occasionally? He’s not the type of guy who means it!’ Perhaps, as you said, this is performed feminism, but my single caveat is that these men actually think they are real feminists. They might think all the other guys are bad and that they are okay because they’ve got good intentions. If this is true, then they are interested in changing the status quo, but only for the ‘bad men’ and not for themselves.
@@catmq2729 hey really appreciate the thorough explanation. I now understand what you mean by the changing of style but not application. I found this topic really interesting since i feel like i am close to the idea of complicit masculinity. This was really a wake-up call that working on changing my patriarchal upbringing as a man is not easily subdued and will be a constant process of checking myself and reflecting on my thoughts. I'm really grateful to people like you and alice who help me in this process. Also on another note i think this problem will only become bigger in the future since labeling yourself as a male feminist is going more mainstream (at least in left leaning circles). I feel like there will be a lot of "profems" coming in the next few years so look out. Anyway have a good one :)
I gotta be honest, the message I got from this is that being an actor must be exhausting, bc ppl will still bring up a clumsy thing you said 9 years ago to make assumptions about your current character. I just feel like you should have picked more examples, or a different guy, bc this feels like a reach. The overall point is valid, its just that the example is very flimsy imo
haha, I mean I don't think she was being too harsh, just pointing out that the zeitgeist can hold these guys up as some kind of feminist ideal of masculinity, but that really they are just a different example of the norms feminism pushes against. She's not saying he's bad, just that the things people like about him don't equal him being especially progressive in his ideology. That said, I agree that we should look at his language and perspective _now_ if we were trying to assess his character or whatever.
While I definitely agree, she should have used more examples in Hollywood instead of placing the blame solely on one person, I think her point still stands
Hey! You must have missed my repeated acknowledgments that he’s a product of a certain period in feminism and that we can’t really blame him for that. He’s an interesting case study of how feminism was understood in the early 2010s and how we moved from that since then. I clearly acknowledged that in the video :) the point of this video is to remind us, activists or allies, that we continue to participate in the systems we distanced ourselves from. We’re not puppets, we have a certain level of agency and I just think it’s good to keep each other accountable while acknowledging where we come from. I do it to myself, my friends because I love them and want us all to become better people. That involves confrontation at times and it’s fine, conflict is necessary for progress!
I agree with you, all this weight and overanalyzing of terminology alone delays progress, in my opinion. Poor guy is just trying to do his job and move on, he looks anxious because probably he's more trying to just make peace with everyone instead of actually present a societal commentary. Which looks like that's what Alice got.
I actually think his use of actor after saying that she was the best actress wasn't him Freudian-ly suggesting that masculine is superior to feminine, I think it was just his way of including all people of the profession using the noun. That is inclusive of all genders. But maybe I'm an optimist in this regard?
Yeah, I feel like coming from a gendered language it might feel different than it feels in english. In spanish (my native language) some words for professions default to masculine even though it doesn't make any sense, with the femenine version not being accepted as semantically correct or not being as widely used, which helps to perpetuate patriarchal stereotypes. I wonder if that also happens in french and if that might have influenced Alice's take on the actor/actress thing, though my knowledge of english might be limited on that aspect and I might be making a fool of myself here.
@@QuestionsIAskMyself definitely not clear at all. It's like you weren't paying attention to all Andrew's misplaced attempts to elevate women and femininity
Note: Actors in Europe are thought through feminine and masculine energies and actions in acting class. They will think it's a real thing while it's just nonsense really and tied to time.
Even if what you are saying here is true, I don’t think the continent plays a role here, it probably depends on the person who conducts the acting class, not the continent it is takes place on. Maybe some teacher in Europe teaches that, but let’s not generalise that
I found that final point incredibly important, and as someone who thinks about agency a lot it resounded with me. Once people become aware of their agency in life, it becomes such a hard decision for someone to choose what they should do with themselves, thoughts, or opinions. I'm still trying to figure that stuff out for myself. Also, counterpoint to your argument: Did you see the Chicken Shop Date Interview, how can he not be babygirl???
I have never been this early on an Alice Cappelle video before! But i wanna say i've been watching your videos for a long time and it's very informative. Keep up the good work! ❤
I'm not sure you can necessarily beat Andrew Garfield with the stick of elevating someone's status in his mind by referring to them as an actor rather than an actress. It doesn't come across as him suggesting that being an "actor" is of a higher standing, but merely that "actors" encompasses a wider group of people than "actresses" so being at the top of that larger talent pool is logically more of an achievement.
It's somewhat of a problem that the masculine form is always the default, but there's no popular alternative so I wouldn't really blame him either. The language itself sort of forces you to think that way, which is it's own problem.
@@Emilio_Garcia English isn't a gendered language though (from an linguistic standpoint), "actor" is neither male nor female. There isn't a word to differentiate male actors and there has been a relative recent backlash against using "actress".
@@jaredbowhay-pringle1460 -ess is a gendered suffix in English, even though overall it is not a gendered language. Historically "actor" was masculine, or mix-gendered, and "actress" was specifically feminine. Referring to a singular person, "actor" was always masculine. "Actor" being used for just men, or any mix-gendered group of people, meant it was a non-gender-specific default, but with a masculine tilt. The male form of words always being or becoming the default is the problematic part I was referring to.
I'm willing to give Andrew the benefit of the doubt as he seems keen to learn and grow with his views however clumsy he may be. Even I'm still trying to be a better guy to this day.
Also because a lot of people aren’t obsessing over gender discourse and neither are the people around them. Thus fame sort of forced them to think about things they took for granted. I know a lot of workaholics with great and big hearts but they don’t think deeply about a lot of stuff. In that sense the times will change them rather late than early.
Yeah idk about the Mel Gibson stuff tho, Andrew seems to have all the optics of progressiveness without any of the integrity to prop it up. that being said I appreciate the way he popularises more vulnerable masculinity.
Calling Spiderman an incel in the first Tobey Maguire film is a reach 😅 Unrequited love or a crush on one woman isn't the same as being an incel that can't get any women to look his way
Yeah, to my understanding an uncle is an angry man who hates women because they sexually rejected him. Spider-Man doesn’t seem angry with women nor the specific woman that rejects him. Frustrated and sad yes but angry or hateful no.
Not sure if it's exactly the same idea, but the Brazilian version of the "profem" is the "esquerdomacho" - literally, the leftwing male... which is more often than not neither pro-feminist nor pro-left hahah
We have “lewak” in polish. A leftist. Never used in a positive way, mostly directed towards a man that does anything that doesn’t align with right-wing agenda lol another left-wing person would only call someone with this word when it’s performative so i could say it’s an equivalent to the profeme too
20 years ago my friends and I were called SNAGs - Sensitive New Age Guys - by the local media because we dared to have empathy and cry after watching our friends be murdered in a mass shooting. It was a disparaging term then, and it's clear whatever you call it, people across the spectrum of society still struggle with men having feelings. Even as we accept those who break out of constructed norms - just so long as that doesn't involve uncomfortable feelings for others. I never really knew about Garfield before this and I'll admit - even as more "traditional" (toxic) masculine framed people might consider he and I more alike than different, I recoil from how performative he feels and counter productive. And yet, I don't actually disagree with anything he is apparently trying to say. Grateful that while I was figuring out the language and truths in all of this I was not on (that much) of a world stage. It's messy. The spectrum is 3 dimensional, not a binary. Looking forward to having more conversations about that.
Do you have the link to the media calling you a SNAG? Sounds ridiculous without more context because it just seems very improbable the local news would call a local dude sensitive for crying at their friends dying in a mass shooting.
@D00Rb3LL it was in a follow up story, getting to know that survivors story. Yeah it was more nuanced than emotions = SNAG, but barely. I'm not hard to find, if you feel like digging through 20 year old articles to confirm we were called SNAGs, but I don't need to do that for the UA-cam comment section.
@@D00Rb3LL i find it very probable that twenty years ago a local news would call a local dude sensitive for crying at their friends dying in a mass shooting
@@D00Rb3LLyou havent seen much of the world if you think news outlets somehow dont engage in personal opinionated attacks. people write news, people are weird.
I don't think the way Spider-Man has been portrayed on film is meant to be a comment on the characters' masculinity, but rather his maturity. In most of the films he is shown to be in high school. Compared to the other superheroes, he is a child.
"Having empathy" is not doing anything though. People's value is in their actions, not in their intentions or feelings. If you feel deeply but do nothing, you are practically as good as those that do nothing at all.
@@brunadeoliveira4586 I'm glad you're saying something to make men happy but actually having empathy prevents you from doing terrible things. So empathy with inaction in that case is a very good thing.
alice you're obviously such an intelligent person, i visit your channel to get updated on how thought is being constructed in european/usa youth, to take a look at the hot topics and what is being given importance on the *internets* _hehe_ by someone who studies and minimally elaborates things (not just gossiping or spreading unneducated oppinions). that being said, this was such a first world analysis of a first world problem.
Thank you. Although I largely agree with this video it’s giving self-appointed policing of what gender and feminism is. She’s not wrong but she’s not understanding that even everything she says is a very current idea of what all this is and maybe had she been 10y older she might have said exactly the same thing as the actor did.
Also like idk what the point is here. Shes saying if you dont cape for women you are not a feminist but a man always looking to save woman is weird also right.idk maybe miss alice at this point (idk if she agrees that i called her miss lmao) thinks Andrew is actually spiderman, like she expects him to be a hardass hero for the female cause or something 😂
@@omnomnomreviews I think the example of Mel Gibson is a really good one: here a man ally like Andrew Garfield shouldn’t be endorsing a misogynistic man like Mel Gibson. Enabling him means having more films displaying poor values which won’t help feminism going forward
And « being a hero for feminism » definitely isn’t what she’s saying because it becomes performative. Putting you on a pedestal like « women wouldn’t get as much rights if it weren’t for me » kind of stuff
Alice, in this video at about 10:50 you say that the Spiderman/Garfield tour is “complicit with patriarchy” because they still get the girl and are desirable. It seems you’re saying that being able to form stable relationship with a woman is somehow upholding the patriarchy? Is that really what you’re saying? I feel like this point needs to be fleshed out more.
If you like your self don't listen to someone on the internet tell you how to behave. It's never enough for these miserable people. They say men and women are the same then why is it not natural for us to immediately see or feel from the perspective of a woman. Why do we have to 'learn' it?
@@spacebuddy5339women can see from the perspective of men because they grew up being forced to. women learned how to be empathetic to men, men can do the same. it doesn’t matter if it’s “natural”. if you haven’t noticed, humans don’t usually like to appeal to nature in our day to day. it isn’t about inherently knowing how a woman feels or would see things, it’s about learning how they have felt in the past, and using that knowledge to assess the current situation. it’s about asking a woman how they feel. you expect women to cradle you, but won’t learn how to be compassionate to them? they’re doing extra labour that you’ve never noticed. read some bell hooks or something, man.
@@spacebuddy5339 This comment is so ignorant it’s almost impressive. Empathy isn’t some magical thing you’re born with-it’s something you develop by listening to other people’s experiences. The fact that you think it’s “unnatural” to understand women’s perspectives just proves how much you need to learn.Also, feminism doesn’t say men and women are the same in every way-it says they deserve equal rights and respect. Big difference. The whole “miserable people telling you how to behave” line is just a lazy way to avoid reflecting on your own privilege. Maybe instead of dismissing people, try actually considering why they’re asking for empathy in the first place. It’s not that hard.
in brazilian portuguese we call profems "equerdomachos", esquerda = left, lefty and macho = male , but its not to describe all men on the left side of the political spectrum, its like profem but with the dimension of appropriating other leftist ideas as well, usually with the end goal of impressing progressive women with their deconstructed masculinity
what is the problem with the I don't see race? I get it that sometimes people try way to hard, but trying to see people for other aspect other than their race is the best way to combat racism, no?! And yes, race will always need to be acknowledge since it influences a lot in our life rather we want it or not, but it doesn't need to be the first thing we judge people by...
This reminds me a lot of discourse around men's sports. Sports stars tend to be media friendly, and a lot of content as of late appears to be positioning players to have a more "baby girl" appearance. This content is directly funneled to the media through the sports teams/organizations themselves and journalists have much access to athletes/players(/drivers in the case of F1) than before. Players aren't usually asked about social issues or about women's sports/women's issues in sports. ... I think about how many girls and women follow F1 and how many videos I've seen of Charles Leclerc or Carlos Sainz where they are presented as sweet and docile. And yet, they are never asked about political or social issues (even within the sport). The case of Alexander Zverev feels similar. Zverev is currently the second best player in the world, who has faced domestic abuse allegations by two separate women. When asked about Zverev's hearing, other top players pretended to know nothing about the case and remained silent. These players faced very little backlash and Zverev himself continues to be presented as a "sweet" person during ATP interviews. Only one player when asked about the court case spoke up against domestic violence generally.
Yeah but since when was it important what kind of person an athlete is? Sport is about being the best at something. You either run the fastest or you don’t. If they break the law they should or punished but outside of that fandom that glorifies or vilified the person behind the achievement is cringe.
"baby girl" more like men with fully and healthy developed skulls, what is attractive? health is attractive, a healthy man has a robust facial structure which gives that "handsome" "Pretty boy" look and it's natural for us to seek attractive partners for healthy offspring, how and why athlete have co-relation with good looks? well they exercise from a young age , eat good diet that's it, the avg person today consumes empty calories results in undeveloped skull, obesity
Wait, that’s it? He’s a fake feminist because he tripped over his words trying to explain that Spider-Man doing something as traditionally feminine as sewing is a cool thing, and then corrected himself with “actress” to “actor” because he knew using that word would piss some people off? This feels like a serious stretch Him working with Mel Gibson could be seen as a bit shady, but that’s the only thing here that feels even slightly valid
I don't think this necessarily makes Andrew Garfield a fake feminist. Only that he has a flawed understanding of feminism and that having 'feminine' qualities alone does not challenge patriarchal systems
I think you may have a wrong understanding of the video's intentions. I think that Alice did not mean it as a hit piece on Andrew Garfield denouncing him as a fake feminist, but as a study on how feminism was viewed in the 2010s and what we can learn and do better from that. Andrew Garfield was just an interesting case study to explore this subject area.
In Brazil Profems are called "Esquerdomachos" ("leftmales"). It is interesting that this is now so universal that two different languages coined a term for that. Is there a word for it in English?
I'm a native English speaker but also I speak Portuguese, I can't think of a word for it off the top of my head but im sure there is one. Hopefully someone else can comment and say one
Wow...I just subscribed!! What an incredible video, you've perfectly put into words what i've been feeling for a long time ❤ The bar is in hell...and any man who portrays himself as a guy who respects women is seen as "feminist" and consequently seen as a baby girl/God. I've been very wary of men, especially actors, portraying themselves in this way because it often doesn't feel (completely) authentic. Plus, the fact that actors know how to act different than they really are and create a different character doesn't help. There is a certain marketability to being a man who is openly "feminist" and some people don't seem to realize that this "baby girl" behavior can be a ruse and can stagnate actual change because they don't see themselves as having agency and being part of the problem as you so perfectly explained!!
Whenever I'm about to start watching a new video of Alice, I know that as much as I thought I had some background knowledge about that subject; it was wrong, or not enough.. and I love it!
So wait, when I joke with my students about certain grammar rules being because "I wasn't invited to the big meeting of English speakers where the decision was made" actually has a real life analogy in France??? Great video--sadly here in the US too many of my fellow countrymen and women chose to align with toxic masculinity. Be well!
Yes, it's a thing in all gendered/romance languages (French, Spanish, Italian, German, etc.). I still want to know who decided, for example, that "table" is masculine, but "bench" is feminine in German. I would much prefer if all non-living things could just be neutrally gendered. It would make my job much much easier 😭
@@PawsOnTheBalcony I don't know about Germany, but Italy doesn't have an institutionalised academy like France and Spain in regards of language. Our academy is not relevant and can't enforce grammar on the Italian language, they often try and regularly are ignored by the population. When new nouns come, after a while comes a natural consensus on the gender, often determined by how well it sounds to the hear. But honestly I think the language part is a bit overblown, I agree it's problematic when you deny job and role nouns to be gendered in the feminine form, but really who cares about objects being gendered that's a non issue
Re the Mel Gibson defense at 21:18 - in the A24 interview, Garfield was talking about how fantastic Tom Cruise is and what an inspiration he has always been. Despite it being absolutely no secret that he is also a despicable human being, mistreats women and is high up in a highly abusive 'church'. It seems like he is happy to respect and praise a 'bad' man if doing so benefits him in some way. Not a Andrew Garfield hater, just an observation.
Tom Cruise is infinite times the man these new Generation actors are Lmao stfu , he was robbed off by the academy many times , He's the most versatile actor and does his own stunts. He's the only guy who can sell only on his name and it'll make profit , one of the last stars who could do that, before it was Clint Eastwood.
The moment i saw that saoirse ronan clip, i remembered your soy-boys commentary on this channel and saw the cnction. Your essays are true mirror of the ongoing culture.
I'm rather disappointed you went through this entire video and didn't once get into either the objectification of this type of man or the way it is manufactured for capitalism. These babygirls are almost universally conventionally attractive and have a strong history of conventionally likeable hypermasculine characters. Of course their credentials don't quite live up to their reputation: they're literally products packaged for sex appeal, including their rhetoric. They are silently given the benefit of the doubt by the effeminate audiences they are made for and appeal to. As long as your "male feminists" list only includes hot dudes it will end up aging into disappointment just like Mel Gibson.
Salut ! It’s been a couple of weeks I’ve been following you and what a surprise it is to see you making a video about my favorite actor ever haha. It’s funny bcos lately I was actually thinking a lot about how I always struggled as a man with my “masculinity” and how bad I was looking for male models like Andrew that I saw as portraying “healthy masculinity”. I’ve also been thinking a bit about how often I also tend to refer to masculine and feminine energies in both women and men, when it may be actually all about pointing to gender roles using fancy spiritual terms. 😅😂 So thank you for your video it comes right in time to give me further food for thoughts on a very complicated subject. 💭
I have a question: is using the words "femininity" and "masculinity" problematic in and of itself, no matter the context? By definition, femininity and masculinity encompass "traditionally" female and male traits, respectively, which is socially biased. Hence, my question: I feel like these are words used for stereotyping. But sometimes, "stereotyping" can be useful to discuss a shared experience. I really don't know, but I'm interested in your thoughts, Alice. Thank you!
Tysm for this video! You give me language and make your sources accessible for me,I truly appreciate it sm! I also had discomfort in the way he and other men explained themselves and couldn't fully put into words why. I always learn sooo much from you. Ty :)
I have watched 2 videos of yours so far. I really enjoy them and appreciate the study you do and how you carefully balance you points to avoid taking side blindly. You bring me a deeper understanding of social dynamics, an extra layer that I didn't think I lacked from (sneakier patterns like this Baby girl topic). Thank you!
I see what you did there Alice. Does speaking a language that does gender lead to gendered mindsets? On the top of my mind, Lera Boroditsky led the discussion about how language shape and impact our thoughts. The assignement of gender to nouns, as she believes leads to the belief of gender attributes. This also exploded in Hispanic-America for reforms to the Spanish language to be gender neutral or inclusive. While there are arguments that gender does not have impact on the mindset and that there are other reasons why they exist, such as the classification of animated and inanimated objects. Even though this not what your essay is about just the intro, what do you think? Does gendered languages shape our perception of things?
I think that saying Andrew Garfield needs to dig deeper could be applied to the author of the video. Now, the question is - would that be a kind thing to do or condescending? How would that comment make the author feel? Why would I need to make a comment like that? More importantly, what would that say about me? We’ve all done and said things that weren’t kind because we’ve been unconsciously influenced by the society. It’s a massive task to do the inventory of our own lives and to realign with our own, and yet, shared values as human beings - to be kind, respectful and compassionate towards ourselves and others as we unlearn, learn and grow. As long as a person is willing to be honest with themselves and to reevaluate what they thought they knew, so that they could actually have the capacity to grow, I applaud that person. Andrew Garfield, as a public figure, shows a good example of that behavior as he openly talks about his struggles and shows his vulnerability. I find that to be refreshing, because, typically in the polarized western society, we haven’t had many healthy examples of that behavior, especially in men. Let’s all be a little less judgmental and more focused on our own growth. Life is placed on a spectrum between dualities and the goal is not feminine vs masculine for example, it’s about giving yourself and others room to explore the entire spectrum of life and to learn from one another. We’re all human, and yet, we’re all different. We all have our struggles and the opportunity to learn and grow through them. We can even have fun while doing that 😉That’s the truth about life - it’s both hard and beautiful 🤍
What a beautifully insightful breakdown of “masculinity” vs “femininity” and the vastly different lives these phrases represent. I never realized just how many people are promoting this false sense of empathy for women that comes from a twisted misunderstanding between the difference that comes with what it means to be a woman and what society wants a women to be. Great video!
Great video. Great reflections, as usual. Thank you for posting such high quality content here on UA-cam and in English. It is a global lingua franca, a place of encaunter for people from the whole world. Your confidance while speaking english, as well of the confidance of other creators, had inspired me to not feel ashamed of my eventual misspronunciations and just record. Keep doing your great job here. If I had the means, I would support it. So now I'll comment some random stuff just to help bost thus video engagement. Thank you!
I'm amab, but have generally identified as enby for a long time. But, I've always worked as a public figure in a really politicized field, so I've rarely felt safe enough express the ways in which I don't really feel comfortable being allied with masculine expressions. And, for that reason, I've generally appreciated and benefited from the existence of masculine presenting characters that center their feelings, emotions, and lived experiences in their characters, or writing. For me, at least, there was no centering masculinity, and deriving femininity in context, but rather the interpersonal struggle with gendered social expectations, and representation, particularly as it pertains TO that hegemonic "stoicism" for men. This was a good video, and got me thinking about a lot more, thanks for making it.
I think, to some extent the existence of mildly subversive masculine presenting role models can participate in a march towards egalitarian social justice, but only insofar as top-down authority in ANY system of change (or revolution) can contribute. Like... certainly things can be done, and something was done for me, but that alone isn't the real mechanism. I found my identity through more than those soft-boy role models, and what I found lasted only because of things-from-the-bottom so to speak.
Hey, first of I wanna thank you for the amazing video, Andrew Garfield caught my eye in the social network, and it's fun to see what has become of him. However, as you pointed out, the discussion on his us of 'feminine' remained a little messy, so I thougth I would contribute my analysis. As I hear him, I can understand what he is pointing at; these uses for gendered language (as a sort of super-abstract dual category) are pretty common. Yet, as you point out, you are not contesting the content of his construal of the feminine category, but the fact that gender labels are helpful in such distinctions at all. I'd agree with you, however, am left with the dilemma: we (and these kids) are going to meet plenty of people calling things 'yang' or 'girly' or whatever gendered language. In some cases, we áre talking about gender, and then still, associations inevetably come up alongside the use of the word feminine. So, how to balance on the one hand: a) building a new, just and inclusive symbolic order, or on the other: b) reshaping the existing use of gendered symbols to represent positive and inclusive aspects of womanhood (instead of defining what a woman cán't be). I hope you agree it's something to think about, and good luck creating the next one!
I am grappling with the same problem! I am still searching for an answer to this dilemma you described to achieve 1) and 2)! I recently realised that the "you go girl"-"girl-power"-barbie"- feminism is also reinforcing gendered stereotypes while trying to uplift and empower women and things associated with femininity. if you have any thoughts of a solution let me know :)
I don't think I'll ever get a better opportunity to mention how endearing I find your accent. Not just the way you say the words, but the way that french affects your word choices in english. You have this inimitable style - and I have to admit it's a large part of the draw for me.
So... Let me get this straight. I'm over half way through the video, and you've given ONE example of this guy being "problematic", and it's something from over a decade ago, where there's clearly no malice, and you yourself admit he was using the language of mainstream feminists at the time? Like what are we doing here? It honestly feels like you've said absolutely nothing of substance and I'm well over halfway through. I've been subbed a couple years, but my girlfriend never did. She reckons your content is both ranty and doesn't actually say anything. I've think I've finally understood what she means.
Yes this is a weird video - uses a fictional character he played and an interview format (puppies) used with other actors by a media company to paint a picture of him. Her videos just read as someone knee deep in modern philosphy/theory...probably could get an A+ in a college essay but no wisdom displayed. Though judging by other comments i could be the one missing something!
The video is about how women put men on pedestals for doing the bare minimum of being emotionally expressive and sensitive, Andrew was just used as one of the most recent examples. I don't think she was trying to imply he's bad or a unique case, just using his image as a sample template to describe the phenomenon.
Immediately my mind goes to how in a lot of places, actors historically weren't allowed to testify in court because of how well they could fake real emotion
this was such an interesting analysis, the mindset of recognizing that you also are a part of the problem is so important and true for other forms of discrimination as well. Like you can’t really be anti racist if you don’t aknowledge your own racism first
Internalizing guilt puts you in a position where you’re perpetually compelled to improve. That’s one of its advantages But there are disadvantages to that way of thinking as well. Are you able to acknowledge those?
Now imagine a person who does something racist and excuses himself by saying that everyone is racist in some extent, that is the problem with saying everyone does x thing or everyone does x.
Alice, I just discovered your channel, and it's such excellent work. Your channel reminds me of another great channel at least when it comes to this sort of topic, and that channel is "Pop Culture Detective". Great job.
Amazing video Alice! Such important points. In comments under interviews and other video's of these baby girls it becomes painfully clear how impressed people (often women) are by men like this. I would say that for many it is a very profitable performance. Not saying that it is completely removed from how they actually feel about gender roles and feminism and maybe they genuinly care but the responses to 'acting' like this can easily give the idea that dressing more feminine, crying from time to time, maybe painting a nail or two, is enough. Because I am a man 'going against' gender norms I am challenging the system. Not really, as you say very eloquently and it might even be harmful because they don't see themselves as part of the problem; they benefit from the system still and now maybe even to a greater degree because now they also got some of the feminists on their side.
I agree with most that you are saying, but I would like to use this video for reflection and self-reflection. I agree that there are some subconscious misogyny in what this actor says and in general in the 'profem'. On the other hand, pointing it out and shaming it is the most pragmatic solution to go towards a more progressive society? I think that an activist for the LGBTQIA+ community, Immanuel Casto, said it better than me in an interview for the channel 'Breaking Italy'. He pointed out that often progressive people can't agree on how to go towards a certain direction, so they end up not moving at all. As a metaphor, let's say that being progressive means going from A to Z and being conservative means going from Z to A and that there are many ways to go in these directions: on foot, by car, by plane. Progressive people start arguing about what's the best mean of transport to reach the destination and stay stuck in the same place. Conversely, conservatives are much better in agreeing on which direction move and start moving: maybe at some point one arrives at destination, one is halfway and another one made a single step. But they all moved in the direction they wanted. Growing older and seing progressive parties progressively crushed at elections made me wonder if we should start thinking in a more pragmatic and less idealistic way.
The last segment of the video seems to answer the first part of your comment I do believe that we have to act pragmatically during election time but that we can’t settle for pragmatism in the way we think about society and how we want to change it, we have to be idealistic, set bold vision and accept the pragmatic steps it takes to get there When it comes to feminism, there are a lot of frameworks to change, a lot of work to do to change the way we understand what feminism means bc the neoliberal appropriation of it has led to a complete disregard for the movement as a whole, that’s what I try to do with my videos on feminism but this one was just a reminder that being an agent of change means recognizing one’s agency in participating in a system, that’s the conclusion of the video. system analysis, an individual’s agency and how the two are linked
@@AliceCappelle I appreciate your videos because they are so idealistic and set a high standard, don't get me wrong. You arr pointing in the right direction, now let's implement a strategy to move all in that direction. I am a woman working in a historically male-dominated field (materials science and engineering). I have many male colleagues and friends who are sometimes overwhelmed by these expectations. Not that we have to congratulate them for the bare minimum (because the bar is in hell), but maybe recognize that they are moving in the right direction. And sometimes I have the feeling that too much idealism can cause a rejection in the general public and a move in the opposite direction. I don't know if it is in your plans for the future, but I think it would be useful in-depth analysis on how to apply these ideals in real life and how effective they are. I am not aware if there are sociological studies about such topic, but I would be interested in it.
I believe we are ALL complicit in systems of oppression and at any given moment can challenge those systems while still benefiting from them which is beyond our control so labeling a group of people as complicit is a monomer. Again we are all complicit.
oh yeah, we hate them. None of them are actuals linguist, the only way to be admitted into the French Academy is to be voted into it by the already sitting Immortals, it's dumb as fuck and a hole for public money
That's the same in Brazil, I guess they were inspired by the French. But at least the guy who founded the Brazilian version, Machado de Assis, is black - not many more followed, and the rich have tried to white wash him since ever, because he's undeniably the best Brazilian author, and one of the world's best, so they couldn't just erase him like they did with other black authors back in the day.
Here in Brasil we also have a term similar to profem, its called “esquerdomacho”, something like ‘leftist male’ and it has a negative conotation. It refers to men who perform this pro feminist discourse but dont actually act on it, they are just “boys lixo” or “trash boys”.
men can literally kill you. do not ever put them on pedestals. these are actors and men are also actors in real life. they know how to come off in a certain way.
To be honest, the term "hollywood baby girls" made it hard, to even fallow the video. It's very infantilizing for any gender. I see your point, I agree. But I see the possibility that Andrew Garfield is on a jurney, to not do essentialization of gender, maybe he'll double down, but I feel there is a possibility for growth. We'll see.
Babygirls is what the fans started, Alice may misinterpret a few things here but she didn't initiate the infantilizing term, though. It's kinda the trend in the business right now and actors who have certain style/appearance have that term directed towards them more (I've seen a case where an actor read a tweet and doesn't know what 'babygirl' means and when explained that "it's a term, mostly used for grown men..." he was like "wtf". But that's that. It's certainly weird. But Alice's videos are always about internet phenomena so she has reasons to title the video as such
@felix__93 yeah, I'm usually a big fan of this channel. I just think, even though it won't solve the problem of patriarchy, we need famous man to cry on camera, for other reasons than to lose a sports competition. I think if a tenage boy is called a "softboy" or "babygirl" for showing his feelings, it is likely he will either start having hatred towards himself or hatred against anything feminin. As most men experienced with the word gay, used in a derogatory way...
Thank you for saying that . Growing up I never wanted to be called a boy and certainly not after the age of 18. To put the word baby in front of it adds insult to injury.
I believe we are altered there. People who spend a lot of time reading or conferring in the most current sphere have an attitude about them. Every person behind is seen as bad and apologist of the patriarchy. Somewhat true because we were raised this way culturally but I’d like to see the conversation be a real one instead if vilifying everyone with a bot similarly close enough opinion.
@hansmemling7605 true. Most what I have seen in the english language has come to an idelistic vocabulary and - single- "correct" true. There are a spectrum of acceptable views and treatment of people. Having the belif in yin and Yang comcepts dosent make one worst person then any other cultural belif as any religion. Many in which there are currently moral rejection: as arranged marriege. Actions matters more then words.
As someone who has to learn french in school I just gained a lot of respect for my teachers because we learned the female job titles way before l’académie française said they were okey to use.
Ça me rappelle la vidéo de Grégoire Simpson sur Ben Névert. Je sais pas si tu connais, mais je pense que t'aimerais bien sa chaîne. Top, comme d'habitude sinon!
I need to me held in check for sure. I think that every human must be hyper vigilant about what motivates them. Because we all have things we can work on. The way men treat women, the way men treat men, the way that women treat women.
Yeah, about that weird incel phenomenon: in The Netherlands we only use three letters of the Greek alphabet to assign to a person. But unlike incels they describe the field of sciences someone studied. “Gamma”-sciences are behavioral (law, economics, etc..), “Beta”-sciences are the exact sciences and “Alpha”-sciences are….humanities. Therefore Alice is an Alpha.
Tbh, I believe Andrew Garfield is nothing but a niceguy trying to collect his "feminist points" in order to be perceived as one of the "good ones" by women.
Listening to Garfield desperately backpedal is like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Even knowing how useless it is, I can't help but call out, "Stop! No! Please stop!"
The concluding remarks about men's moral agency is a good one, and it's also why Michelle Obama made the remark in the excerpt at 19:25 . It's unconstructive in my opinion to frame Obama's remark as a "disclaimer" that she "has to make" - she included it with the politically strategic intention of appealing to men's agency, if I had to guess. She probably wants men to better see themselves as being helpful to women through their political choices. It's obvious that feminism has better tools for me (a man) to be ethically adequate to women, when compared to the gender ideology that conservatives in my country (the USA) offer. But it seems like there's a preponderance of men doing feminism badly or falsely, like Andrew Garfield, "pro-fems," etc. and I worry a lot that I would fall into the same traps.
I feel silly for feeling this way but when I wash my dishes I feel the water running around and over my dishes is more representative of who people are than any traditional gender roles any of us get assigned. Only people make us feel insecure and that can get in the way of who we really are. And that's another way of saying gender is fluid and people are fluid but I can't say that to many in my family because they've done heard people say that gender is fluid and they'll dismiss me. I still think femininity and masculinity can be good and more inclusive forms of both should be humanized so we all can express ourselves how we want to express ourselves.
8:40 It's not a huge part of the video but it's maybe worth pointing out that Peter Parker only "gets the girl" _after_ he becomes Spider-man - in no tellings i'm aware of is it _ever_ before. Peter's an old-school nerd essentially, near the bottom of the male pecking order since long before "subordinate masculinities" was ever coined. Spider-man empowers him (in almost all versions, _Spider-man_ is wisecracking and supremely confidant - he's basically who Peter wished he was if only he weren't awkward and weedy, the "after" of the bodybuilding adverts old comics used to feature). (very true about the system of course, _everyone_ is complicit - the first person that ever told me "Big boys don't cry" was my mother, not my father - but arguably for men it's less _forced_ complicity. "Arguably" BTW because the causes/effects web is so complex, it's potentially unknowable IMO)
This video has already not aged well or turned quite ironic, you decide ahah
After thousands of women hated on a sexual harassment victim and defended a male faux feminist I'd say so.
I'd say that my comment aged pretty well considering. I'm not happy about it, though.
wait what happened?!
Babygirlifying men or anyone is just putting them on a pedestal. Adoring the idea of someone, rather than seeing them for who they are.
I've seen women excuse rape because their babygirlified man did it. It's harmful.
Sorry but that's just such a stretch to me. (but not the last part of course)
women always put boys and men on pedestals and will be happy to see other women mistreated because 'omg he's so amazing'. it's how we're raised - to adore men and villainise women.
@babypicassoeisenstein In the context of the family and relatives yes on a broader scale no. I’ve met lots of women as a kid that treated men horribly and were never punished for it. On the flip side I was always treated well by the women in my family, relatives and sometimes the mothers of friends I had. Some mothers couldn’t stand me and were cold to me. On a larger scale, society, men seem to be obsessed over when it comes to achievements our society holds dear but everytime a woman does it, she’s revered for it although I admit it’s more of a recent phenomenon.
It’s scary - I think of all the male celebrities in general who are put on that pedestal and they worship the idea of the guy (and then tear down any woman who dares to challenge that idea by sharing her negative experience with him)
@@babypicassoeisenstein I've seen it but I wouldn't generalize it to "women"...
Andrew Garfield is yet another actor that I swore was American until I heard his "real" voice.
Always remember what kind role he is playing. Americans champion square jaw ruff rumble and tumble cowboy archetypes
Always remember what kind role he is playing. Americans champion square jaw ruff rumble and tumble cowboy archetypes
@@SacristanRacing True. Most guys in hollywood embody "clasically handsome", to put it in a way.
he technically is since his dad is american and andrew himself has american citizenship!
he actually is, he just grew up in the uk
As a gay man, it's just very telling to me that these straight men are being rewarded for being emotional, but if a gay, feminine man does it, it's somehow worthy of being ridiculed instead.
Also any actor can talk the talk and can claim to be an ally, but if they don't stand with us when it comes to fighting for our rights, then they were never our ally
As a woman who works professionally in the UK theatre scene, I do actually prefer the term actor, but this is because of a language difference. English isn’t as gendered, so having gender neutral terminology for professions just makes sense to me. Because anyone of any gender can be an actor. We don’t call women doctors “doctresses”. And what would be the right term for nb folk? Idk I think I understand why he corrected himself in that instance cuz I think many performers prefer actor.
The origin of "gender neutral" (not really, even if they've come to that) professions in English is the same as masculine forms in French or Spanish. Even in English where gender is usually not marked, it wasn't marked because masculine=universal, and feminine=marked. That is, the reason why you find actress is because there WERE female actors, just as the reason why seamstress and waitress exist. But the reason why you do not find "judgess" is not because the word judge is more inclusive, but because there simply WEREN'T female judges, and what's more, because probably the users resisted the notion of a female word for a position they didn't even agree women should occupy. It's the same case for doctor, president, captain, etc. even if language users are resignifying those words as neutral (and hey, I'm super on board) it's good to be aware of why people might have different takes on gendered language, or why they might be trying to do something which other people see as going backwards (e.i: using feminine suffixes to mark gender). Nevertheless, yep, English is so much better when it comes to using gender neutral language and including NB people. Spanish is terrible for that 😕
I don't think there would've been anything to point out, if Andrew had only used the word "actor" instead of correcting "actress" to "actor" as a way to (in his mind) elevate Emma. Plus what the person above me said is also true.
@@agentwrenchspanish is not terrible, just change the -o or -a at the end by an -e and it becomes all inclusive (and it sounds funny af)
I think it's American obsession with labels.
@@agentwrench a major problem seems to me to be whether you view language as forming culture. in german, we had just the masculine/neutral terms and then added a feminine for almost all professions, but there are many people now who believe thats not enough, that language has to be changed first to motivate societal change later. essentially enforce language of the ideal society in the future, that can be moved towards. those people are strongly pressuring for a third version that combines both into a linguistically unique but unwieldly „neutral“ term.
this calls into question whether adding feminine counterparts really is inclusive in the first place because it draws more attention to sex/gender rather than less and splits members of any profession along those lines. i don’t see how much is gained there, when the obvious alternative is that you simply take steps in true equality on a societal level which then shifts the meaning of words to match what society believes rather than the other way around.
I'm happy that you ended your video in the way you did. I definetely identify my past self with the "profem" kind of guy that thinks he is a feminist and recognizes that the system is patriarchal, yet is unable to see his own sexist behaviours and thoughts.
The fact that those behaviours and learned patterns can ever arise without notice, and that it's basically impossible to truly "unlearn" stuff that you learned as a child kind of scares me. I feel like I always have to be on my toes about not being more condescendent or dismissive towards women than I am towards other men.
Seeing how difficult this can be to change even on yourself makes you wonder if we will have any chance to change it at all on society as a whole, so it can get disheartening.
That's why I want to thank you for recognizing that some of us are actually trying. Thank you.
PS: Even after writing this I feel like I'm victimizing myself somehow here and making this about me, but I figure this is the best video to do that after all.
I understand that. Somewhat related point, I'm a trans woman. I've known I felt as a girl all my life, and I've only lived as once since I was 17, and I have had to try to unlearn and make up for so many thoughts and behaviors, both in relation to other women and to myself. In the beginning, I really struggled with the fact that I was good at math, and that I am outspoken in my opinions, because deep inside, I didn't consider that to be "feminine" enough. And I still sometimes end up with these thoughts in my mind, subconsciously expecting a woman to be worse or less intelligent. Of course you can't just undo an entire childhood of being raised as a boy.
And it annoys me that the wider trans community refuses to see that. I see so much sexism from other trans women, mostly directed at themselves, but sometimes directed at other women as well. Often they're imagining womanhood through the platonic ideal of the cutesy anime girl, small, doesn't think, keeps her mouth shut. Or if you can't be a cutesy anime girl, you're the dominant sexual anime mommy, and those are the only two acceptable ways to be a woman. I've experienced my fair share of unwanted, creepy, boundary crossing sexualization, but being called "mommy" out of nowhere by trans women I've just met is a special flavor of uncomfortable.
All this to say, if I ever point this out to other trans women, I'm usually met with this argument (that I've condensed and paraphrased), "I can't be sexist, I'm a woman. And if you insinuate that I have sexist thoughts or behaviors, you're saying I'm not a real woman, and you're a transphobe!" I think it is SO, SO important for anyone who has been socialized as male to look at their own biases and behavior with a critical lens. I don't think that just because you're being oppressed in one way, it gives you the right to uncritically perpetuate another kind of oppression (one that affects you as well). And it saddens and annoys me that the wider trans community has such a limited and sexist view of womanhood, born from male socialization, that they refuse to re-evaluate. I actually don't engage with any trans community anymore.
idk, I thought this would add something to your comment because it's the same kind of problem, but from a different community
I'm a woman but I'm constantly checking myself to see if my emotional response to people isn't affected by the sexism that might have unconsciously entered my brain. it makes sense specially if you're not a woman or aren't faced with sexism yourself. or if you feel different from most women even.
@@Sina-dv1eg thanks for saying this. sexist women make me really uncomfortable and like I kinda also pity them so I tend to not be as harsh to them.(though the fact that they're tractors to they're own gender makes me more angry) but everyone man or woman is responsible for the sexism that exists in society.
also trans women as you said are socialized as men and they might not understand as deeply how sexism effects women cause they didn't have that experience of being a little girl and facing sexism which is way more frustrating if than if you are an adult.
I think it’s about accepting that we’ll never be perfect in our lifetime, but should still work to be better. Then society throughout the years will move forwards as a whole.
i liked this reply, especially your seeing how talking about your understanding of masculinity can sort of have ulterior motivations.
i think women are so desperate for “good men”, but to accept that patriarchy is systemic is to accept that the line between good and bad is unclear. we’re born into patterns, systems, and institutions that disproportionately impact certain ppl. we shouldn’t frame our feminism in the impulse to wash out hands of sin. we can just strive to be a little better, to admit that conflict and disagreement will always be a natural consequence of power imbalance.
'Feminism is for Everyone' and 'The Will to Change' both by Bell Hooks were pretty influential to my own personal softening to the label feminism after growing up in a socially conservative religious environment.
I've really respected how Andrew Garfield has carried himself throughout his career and most recently has been a positive role model for healthy emotional expression. I don't agree with his binary way of talking about male and female energy as I don't think it's helpful to artificially subject actions to that framework. I'm glad he's at least talking about such things though because it opens up people who may follow him for his status as a previous Spiderman actor to potentially consider a little more gender discourse than they otherwise might have.
feminism is for women. saying that feminism is for everybody is the exact same bullshit as saying “all lives matter!” in response to black lives matter. why must women be expected to include their oppressors in their OWN liberation movement?
Helping Everyone (Excluding Straight Males)
that there is a group of 'immortals' who decide upon what counts as a correct application of grammatical gender is the stupidest thing i've ever heard
The same thing happens with spanish language. We have something called Royal Spanish Academy 😂
@@federicadefilippi4680 I was just thinking that!! I find it as ridiculous as OP mentioned it. Also, hola! Qué lindo encontrar otra gente que habla español viento los videos de Alice ❤
Persian immortals were professionnal imperial warriors.
French immortals are geriatric grammatical tyrants.
@@arthurbriand2175 still, both embody hegemonic masculinity in their time and space !
@@arthurbriand2175 really missed a chance to call them "grammar nazis"
I recently had an experience where a man in an art class was repeatedly drawing me without my consent and in a slightly sexualized way. It made me uncomfortable and I told him to stop, but now others in the class are wary of me because he is soft babygirl and I am the evil dragon who stomped on him. We are at a point in culture where masculinity is softening and broadening in style, but not in application. Just because a man embraces a different masculine ideal does not mean they are a feminist ally or even that they respect the feminist ideals they say they support. Ironically, it only means that women will put them on a higher pedestal, feel more comfortable around them, and be less disappointed when they fail.
Hey i think your comment is very interesting, but im having a hard time understanding what you mean by saying that masculinity is broadening and softening in style but not in application. Do you mean that men who softened their "style" of masculinity are engaging in a sort of performance of feminism, but do not actually have an interest in changing the status quo? I would be happy about a clarification/explanation because your use of the words style and application really interested me and i think it would help me to grasp the concepts in the video better aswel.
@ thank you Louis! To clarify: by softening I mean that modern masculinity is allowing for more nuanced gender expression. Men like Timothee Chalamet and Andrew Garfield, who cry easily, have gentle & kind demeanors, and incorporate traditionally ‘feminine’ items into their wardrobe, are examples of the change. In pop culture these men are affectionately called ‘baby girl’, but whenever I’ve seen this happen in real life, it is accompanied by an over-forgiveness of problematic behavior. It’s like ‘oh, X is a crier, he reads women’s books, he accepts everyone, so what if he says problematic things and makes people uncomfortable occasionally? He’s not the type of guy who means it!’ Perhaps, as you said, this is performed feminism, but my single caveat is that these men actually think they are real feminists. They might think all the other guys are bad and that they are okay because they’ve got good intentions. If this is true, then they are interested in changing the status quo, but only for the ‘bad men’ and not for themselves.
@@catmq2729 hey really appreciate the thorough explanation. I now understand what you mean by the changing of style but not application. I found this topic really interesting since i feel like i am close to the idea of complicit masculinity. This was really a wake-up call that working on changing my patriarchal upbringing as a man is not easily subdued and will be a constant process of checking myself and reflecting on my thoughts. I'm really grateful to people like you and alice who help me in this process.
Also on another note i think this problem will only become bigger in the future since labeling yourself as a male feminist is going more mainstream (at least in left leaning circles). I feel like there will be a lot of "profems" coming in the next few years so look out.
Anyway have a good one :)
I gotta be honest, the message I got from this is that being an actor must be exhausting, bc ppl will still bring up a clumsy thing you said 9 years ago to make assumptions about your current character. I just feel like you should have picked more examples, or a different guy, bc this feels like a reach. The overall point is valid, its just that the example is very flimsy imo
haha, I mean I don't think she was being too harsh, just pointing out that the zeitgeist can hold these guys up as some kind of feminist ideal of masculinity, but that really they are just a different example of the norms feminism pushes against. She's not saying he's bad, just that the things people like about him don't equal him being especially progressive in his ideology. That said, I agree that we should look at his language and perspective _now_ if we were trying to assess his character or whatever.
While I definitely agree, she should have used more examples in Hollywood instead of placing the blame solely on one person, I think her point still stands
Hey! You must have missed my repeated acknowledgments that he’s a product of a certain period in feminism and that we can’t really blame him for that. He’s an interesting case study of how feminism was understood in the early 2010s and how we moved from that since then. I clearly acknowledged that in the video :) the point of this video is to remind us, activists or allies, that we continue to participate in the systems we distanced ourselves from. We’re not puppets, we have a certain level of agency and I just think it’s good to keep each other accountable while acknowledging where we come from. I do it to myself, my friends because I love them and want us all to become better people. That involves confrontation at times and it’s fine, conflict is necessary for progress!
I agree with you, all this weight and overanalyzing of terminology alone delays progress, in my opinion. Poor guy is just trying to do his job and move on, he looks anxious because probably he's more trying to just make peace with everyone instead of actually present a societal commentary. Which looks like that's what Alice got.
The course of being the Internet’s Boyfriend never did run smooth.
I actually think his use of actor after saying that she was the best actress wasn't him Freudian-ly suggesting that masculine is superior to feminine, I think it was just his way of including all people of the profession using the noun. That is inclusive of all genders. But maybe I'm an optimist in this regard?
I'm also curious about this. I have heard various discourse around using the one term regardless of gender i.e. 'actor'
Yeah, I feel like coming from a gendered language it might feel different than it feels in english. In spanish (my native language) some words for professions default to masculine even though it doesn't make any sense, with the femenine version not being accepted as semantically correct or not being as widely used, which helps to perpetuate patriarchal stereotypes. I wonder if that also happens in french and if that might have influenced Alice's take on the actor/actress thing, though my knowledge of english might be limited on that aspect and I might be making a fool of myself here.
i think so too. i noticed many actresses prefer to call themselves 'actors'. Florence Pugh for example
Its based on context, i think in this case it was clear that actor was used as a superior.
@@QuestionsIAskMyself definitely not clear at all. It's like you weren't paying attention to all Andrew's misplaced attempts to elevate women and femininity
Note: Actors in Europe are thought through feminine and masculine energies and actions in acting class. They will think it's a real thing while it's just nonsense really and tied to time.
Huh, never knew that. Which countries do this?
In Europe? As in, the whole continent? I don’t think so
Even if what you are saying here is true, I don’t think the continent plays a role here, it probably depends on the person who conducts the acting class, not the continent it is takes place on. Maybe some teacher in Europe teaches that, but let’s not generalise that
I wasn't ready for that "it was 7 years ago", you killed me
Yeah, I didn't realize it either 😭
I found that final point incredibly important, and as someone who thinks about agency a lot it resounded with me. Once people become aware of their agency in life, it becomes such a hard decision for someone to choose what they should do with themselves, thoughts, or opinions. I'm still trying to figure that stuff out for myself.
Also, counterpoint to your argument: Did you see the Chicken Shop Date Interview, how can he not be babygirl???
I have never been this early on an Alice Cappelle video before! But i wanna say i've been watching your videos for a long time and it's very informative. Keep up the good work! ❤
I'm not sure you can necessarily beat Andrew Garfield with the stick of elevating someone's status in his mind by referring to them as an actor rather than an actress. It doesn't come across as him suggesting that being an "actor" is of a higher standing, but merely that "actors" encompasses a wider group of people than "actresses" so being at the top of that larger talent pool is logically more of an achievement.
i think so too
Agreed
It's somewhat of a problem that the masculine form is always the default, but there's no popular alternative so I wouldn't really blame him either. The language itself sort of forces you to think that way, which is it's own problem.
@@Emilio_Garcia English isn't a gendered language though (from an linguistic standpoint), "actor" is neither male nor female. There isn't a word to differentiate male actors and there has been a relative recent backlash against using "actress".
@@jaredbowhay-pringle1460 -ess is a gendered suffix in English, even though overall it is not a gendered language. Historically "actor" was masculine, or mix-gendered, and "actress" was specifically feminine. Referring to a singular person, "actor" was always masculine. "Actor" being used for just men, or any mix-gendered group of people, meant it was a non-gender-specific default, but with a masculine tilt. The male form of words always being or becoming the default is the problematic part I was referring to.
I'm willing to give Andrew the benefit of the doubt as he seems keen to learn and grow with his views however clumsy he may be. Even I'm still trying to be a better guy to this day.
Also because a lot of people aren’t obsessing over gender discourse and neither are the people around them. Thus fame sort of forced them to think about things they took for granted. I know a lot of workaholics with great and big hearts but they don’t think deeply about a lot of stuff. In that sense the times will change them rather late than early.
"Even i'm still trying" what is that supposed to mean? Lol, wdym by "Even I", that screams holier than thou to such an ironic level
Yeah idk about the Mel Gibson stuff tho, Andrew seems to have all the optics of progressiveness without any of the integrity to prop it up. that being said I appreciate the way he popularises more vulnerable masculinity.
Calling Spiderman an incel in the first Tobey Maguire film is a reach 😅
Unrequited love or a crush on one woman isn't the same as being an incel that can't get any women to look his way
Yeah, to my understanding an uncle is an angry man who hates women because they sexually rejected him. Spider-Man doesn’t seem angry with women nor the specific woman that rejects him. Frustrated and sad yes but angry or hateful no.
Not sure if it's exactly the same idea, but the Brazilian version of the "profem" is the "esquerdomacho" - literally, the leftwing male... which is more often than not neither pro-feminist nor pro-left hahah
Feministo is a term used as well
Aliade-mangina in Spanish
We have “lewak” in polish. A leftist. Never used in a positive way, mostly directed towards a man that does anything that doesn’t align with right-wing agenda lol another left-wing person would only call someone with this word when it’s performative so i could say it’s an equivalent to the profeme too
tava procurando esse comentário kkkk
20 years ago my friends and I were called SNAGs - Sensitive New Age Guys - by the local media because we dared to have empathy and cry after watching our friends be murdered in a mass shooting. It was a disparaging term then, and it's clear whatever you call it, people across the spectrum of society still struggle with men having feelings. Even as we accept those who break out of constructed norms - just so long as that doesn't involve uncomfortable feelings for others.
I never really knew about Garfield before this and I'll admit - even as more "traditional" (toxic) masculine framed people might consider he and I more alike than different, I recoil from how performative he feels and counter productive. And yet, I don't actually disagree with anything he is apparently trying to say. Grateful that while I was figuring out the language and truths in all of this I was not on (that much) of a world stage.
It's messy. The spectrum is 3 dimensional, not a binary. Looking forward to having more conversations about that.
Do you have the link to the media calling you a SNAG? Sounds ridiculous without more context because it just seems very improbable the local news would call a local dude sensitive for crying at their friends dying in a mass shooting.
@D00Rb3LL it was in a follow up story, getting to know that survivors story. Yeah it was more nuanced than emotions = SNAG, but barely. I'm not hard to find, if you feel like digging through 20 year old articles to confirm we were called SNAGs, but I don't need to do that for the UA-cam comment section.
@@D00Rb3LL i find it very probable that twenty years ago a local news would call a local dude sensitive for crying at their friends dying in a mass shooting
@@Jesiahjesiahno need to dox yourself for this random we believe you
@@D00Rb3LLyou havent seen much of the world if you think news outlets somehow dont engage in personal opinionated attacks. people write news, people are weird.
I don't think the way Spider-Man has been portrayed on film is meant to be a comment on the characters' masculinity, but rather his maturity. In most of the films he is shown to be in high school. Compared to the other superheroes, he is a child.
"Having empathy" is not doing anything though. People's value is in their actions, not in their intentions or feelings. If you feel deeply but do nothing, you are practically as good as those that do nothing at all.
this is something a man would say. having empathy is very important and considering they love sociopath culture, this is a good step forward.
@@babypicassoeisenstein no. I say that as a woman too. Having empathy without action is equal nothing.
Why are people who do nothing evil?
When I always hear/see/read those kind of sentences, I feel I'm invited to be radicalized.
@@brunadeoliveira4586 I'm glad you're saying something to make men happy but actually having empathy prevents you from doing terrible things. So empathy with inaction in that case is a very good thing.
do people baby girl black or poc male actors?
Nope they just get ignored by white fans
good point
Dev Patel is quite consistently baby-girled
Pedro pascal
@@ayantika0109 TIL Pedro Pascal is POC
alice you're obviously such an intelligent person, i visit your channel to get updated on how thought is being constructed in european/usa youth, to take a look at the hot topics and what is being given importance on the *internets* _hehe_ by someone who studies and minimally elaborates things (not just gossiping or spreading unneducated oppinions).
that being said, this was such a first world analysis of a first world problem.
Thank you. Although I largely agree with this video it’s giving self-appointed policing of what gender and feminism is. She’s not wrong but she’s not understanding that even everything she says is a very current idea of what all this is and maybe had she been 10y older she might have said exactly the same thing as the actor did.
Also like idk what the point is here. Shes saying if you dont cape for women you are not a feminist but a man always looking to save woman is weird also right.idk maybe miss alice at this point (idk if she agrees that i called her miss lmao) thinks Andrew is actually spiderman, like she expects him to be a hardass hero for the female cause or something 😂
@@omnomnomreviews
I think the example of Mel Gibson is a really good one: here a man ally like Andrew Garfield shouldn’t be endorsing a misogynistic man like Mel Gibson. Enabling him means having more films displaying poor values which won’t help feminism going forward
And « being a hero for feminism » definitely isn’t what she’s saying because it becomes performative. Putting you on a pedestal like « women wouldn’t get as much rights if it weren’t for me » kind of stuff
Alice, in this video at about 10:50 you say that the Spiderman/Garfield tour is “complicit with patriarchy” because they still get the girl and are desirable. It seems you’re saying that being able to form stable relationship with a woman is somehow upholding the patriarchy? Is that really what you’re saying? I feel like this point needs to be fleshed out more.
As someone who wants to do better, this video helped point me in the right direction. Thank you for posting it.
If you like your self don't listen to someone on the internet tell you how to behave. It's never enough for these miserable people. They say men and women are the same then why is it not natural for us to immediately see or feel from the perspective of a woman. Why do we have to 'learn' it?
@@spacebuddy5339that's easy enough, just because we're equal doesn't mean we all get treated the same way
@@spacebuddy5339women can see from the perspective of men because they grew up being forced to. women learned how to be empathetic to men, men can do the same.
it doesn’t matter if it’s “natural”. if you haven’t noticed, humans don’t usually like to appeal to nature in our day to day.
it isn’t about inherently knowing how a woman feels or would see things, it’s about learning how they have felt in the past, and using that knowledge to assess the current situation. it’s about asking a woman how they feel.
you expect women to cradle you, but won’t learn how to be compassionate to them? they’re doing extra labour that you’ve never noticed.
read some bell hooks or something, man.
@@spacebuddy5339 Because society interacts with us very differently based on our gender. Obviously.
@@spacebuddy5339 This comment is so ignorant it’s almost impressive. Empathy isn’t some magical thing you’re born with-it’s something you develop by listening to other people’s experiences. The fact that you think it’s “unnatural” to understand women’s perspectives just proves how much you need to learn.Also, feminism doesn’t say men and women are the same in every way-it says they deserve equal rights and respect. Big difference. The whole “miserable people telling you how to behave” line is just a lazy way to avoid reflecting on your own privilege. Maybe instead of dismissing people, try actually considering why they’re asking for empathy in the first place. It’s not that hard.
in brazilian portuguese we call profems "equerdomachos", esquerda = left, lefty and macho = male , but its not to describe all men on the left side of the political spectrum, its like profem but with the dimension of appropriating other leftist ideas as well, usually with the end goal of impressing progressive women with their deconstructed masculinity
"Feministo" também
the way you checked all of the digital crush boxes in the thumbnail 😭😭
"sexism isnt even a word i know" lmao, its giving "i dont see race"
He clearly meant in his life and how he applies it lol
@@lex_rodriguezthat's how people use the sentence "I don't see race," too
what is the problem with the I don't see race? I get it that sometimes people try way to hard, but trying to see people for other aspect other than their race is the best way to combat racism, no?! And yes, race will always need to be acknowledge since it influences a lot in our life rather we want it or not, but it doesn't need to be the first thing we judge people by...
@edmilsoncarvalho646 you just answered your own question
This reminds me a lot of discourse around men's sports. Sports stars tend to be media friendly, and a lot of content as of late appears to be positioning players to have a more "baby girl" appearance. This content is directly funneled to the media through the sports teams/organizations themselves and journalists have much access to athletes/players(/drivers in the case of F1) than before. Players aren't usually asked about social issues or about women's sports/women's issues in sports.
...
I think about how many girls and women follow F1 and how many videos I've seen of Charles Leclerc or Carlos Sainz where they are presented as sweet and docile. And yet, they are never asked about political or social issues (even within the sport).
The case of Alexander Zverev feels similar. Zverev is currently the second best player in the world, who has faced domestic abuse allegations by two separate women. When asked about Zverev's hearing, other top players pretended to know nothing about the case and remained silent. These players faced very little backlash and Zverev himself continues to be presented as a "sweet" person during ATP interviews. Only one player when asked about the court case spoke up against domestic violence generally.
Yeah but since when was it important what kind of person an athlete is? Sport is about being the best at something. You either run the fastest or you don’t. If they break the law they should or punished but outside of that fandom that glorifies or vilified the person behind the achievement is cringe.
"baby girl" more like men with fully and healthy developed skulls, what is attractive? health is attractive, a healthy man has a robust facial structure which gives that "handsome" "Pretty boy" look and it's natural for us to seek attractive partners for healthy offspring, how and why athlete have co-relation with good looks? well they exercise from a young age , eat good diet that's it, the avg person today consumes empty calories results in undeveloped skull, obesity
Wait, that’s it?
He’s a fake feminist because he tripped over his words trying to explain that Spider-Man doing something as traditionally feminine as sewing is a cool thing, and then corrected himself with “actress” to “actor” because he knew using that word would piss some people off?
This feels like a serious stretch
Him working with Mel Gibson could be seen as a bit shady, but that’s the only thing here that feels even slightly valid
He hasn't just worked for him, he's publicly defended him more than once
I don't think this necessarily makes Andrew Garfield a fake feminist. Only that he has a flawed understanding of feminism and that having 'feminine' qualities alone does not challenge patriarchal systems
I think you may have a wrong understanding of the video's intentions. I think that Alice did not mean it as a hit piece on Andrew Garfield denouncing him as a fake feminist, but as a study on how feminism was viewed in the 2010s and what we can learn and do better from that. Andrew Garfield was just an interesting case study to explore this subject area.
I await your videos more than film releases these days!
So true, me too!
In Brazil Profems are called "Esquerdomachos" ("leftmales"). It is interesting that this is now so universal that two different languages coined a term for that. Is there a word for it in English?
I'm a native English speaker but also I speak Portuguese, I can't think of a word for it off the top of my head but im sure there is one. Hopefully someone else can comment and say one
Wow...I just subscribed!! What an incredible video, you've perfectly put into words what i've been feeling for a long time ❤ The bar is in hell...and any man who portrays himself as a guy who respects women is seen as "feminist" and consequently seen as a baby girl/God. I've been very wary of men, especially actors, portraying themselves in this way because it often doesn't feel (completely) authentic. Plus, the fact that actors know how to act different than they really are and create a different character doesn't help. There is a certain marketability to being a man who is openly "feminist" and some people don't seem to realize that this "baby girl" behavior can be a ruse and can stagnate actual change because they don't see themselves as having agency and being part of the problem as you so perfectly explained!!
I loved Garfield's Spider-Man more than every other, I was sad it wasn't received that way by many
I think we shouldn't take any Hollywood people too seriously
I was JUST talking about the baby-girlification of Ghost 5 minutes ago. I have not even clicked play yet but I had to get this off my chest firsst
Ghost the band? Ghost the CoD character?
Ghost the 1990 romance thriller starring Patrick Swayze, Demi Moore, and Whoopi Goldberg?
Ghost the direwolf from Game of Thrones?
Ghost like ghost poop?
One of you guessed correctly.
Whenever I'm about to start watching a new video of Alice, I know that as much as I thought I had some background knowledge about that subject; it was wrong, or not enough.. and I love it!
So wait, when I joke with my students about certain grammar rules being because "I wasn't invited to the big meeting of English speakers where the decision was made" actually has a real life analogy in France??? Great video--sadly here in the US too many of my fellow countrymen and women chose to align with toxic masculinity. Be well!
Yes, it's a thing in all gendered/romance languages (French, Spanish, Italian, German, etc.). I still want to know who decided, for example, that "table" is masculine, but "bench" is feminine in German. I would much prefer if all non-living things could just be neutrally gendered. It would make my job much much easier 😭
@@PawsOnTheBalcony I don't know about Germany, but Italy doesn't have an institutionalised academy like France and Spain in regards of language. Our academy is not relevant and can't enforce grammar on the Italian language, they often try and regularly are ignored by the population. When new nouns come, after a while comes a natural consensus on the gender, often determined by how well it sounds to the hear. But honestly I think the language part is a bit overblown, I agree it's problematic when you deny job and role nouns to be gendered in the feminine form, but really who cares about objects being gendered that's a non issue
Re the Mel Gibson defense at 21:18 - in the A24 interview, Garfield was talking about how fantastic Tom Cruise is and what an inspiration he has always been. Despite it being absolutely no secret that he is also a despicable human being, mistreats women and is high up in a highly abusive 'church'. It seems like he is happy to respect and praise a 'bad' man if doing so benefits him in some way. Not a Andrew Garfield hater, just an observation.
Tom Cruise is infinite times the man these new Generation actors are Lmao stfu , he was robbed off by the academy many times , He's the most versatile actor and does his own stunts. He's the only guy who can sell only on his name and it'll make profit , one of the last stars who could do that, before it was Clint Eastwood.
@@brute4236 Nice to see you here, Tom.
@@ellenforster6822 Lol , what? should i take it as a compliment?
@@brute4236 What does any of that have to do with what she said
@@echostorm1996 what doesn't?
Him saying that about Mel Gibson was actually so disgusting like I couldn't believe the general public didn't have any outrage about that.
1:32 those who had a psychedelic experience will understand
The moment i saw that saoirse ronan clip, i remembered your soy-boys commentary on this channel and saw the cnction. Your essays are true mirror of the ongoing culture.
I'm rather disappointed you went through this entire video and didn't once get into either the objectification of this type of man or the way it is manufactured for capitalism. These babygirls are almost universally conventionally attractive and have a strong history of conventionally likeable hypermasculine characters. Of course their credentials don't quite live up to their reputation: they're literally products packaged for sex appeal, including their rhetoric. They are silently given the benefit of the doubt by the effeminate audiences they are made for and appeal to. As long as your "male feminists" list only includes hot dudes it will end up aging into disappointment just like Mel Gibson.
From this, i learned that some people care more about the word than the act.
andrew has always been my goat
Salut ! It’s been a couple of weeks I’ve been following you and what a surprise it is to see you making a video about my favorite actor ever haha. It’s funny bcos lately I was actually thinking a lot about how I always struggled as a man with my “masculinity” and how bad I was looking for male models like Andrew that I saw as portraying “healthy masculinity”. I’ve also been thinking a bit about how often I also tend to refer to masculine and feminine energies in both women and men, when it may be actually all about pointing to gender roles using fancy spiritual terms. 😅😂 So thank you for your video it comes right in time to give me further food for thoughts on a very complicated subject. 💭
I have a question: is using the words "femininity" and "masculinity" problematic in and of itself, no matter the context? By definition, femininity and masculinity encompass "traditionally" female and male traits, respectively, which is socially biased. Hence, my question: I feel like these are words used for stereotyping. But sometimes, "stereotyping" can be useful to discuss a shared experience. I really don't know, but I'm interested in your thoughts, Alice. Thank you!
Alice! Your hair/waves look really good! 🙌🏻 Love the video -- I reallg need to check out those famous Bell Hooks books
Tysm for this video! You give me language and make your sources accessible for me,I truly appreciate it sm! I also had discomfort in the way he and other men explained themselves and couldn't fully put into words why. I always learn sooo much from you. Ty :)
this video reminds me of a lot of the discourse happening around 2016-2018. Great video btw
The concept of phallic jouissance in Lacan will probably interest you, if you don't already know it.
I have watched 2 videos of yours so far. I really enjoy them and appreciate the study you do and how you carefully balance you points to avoid taking side blindly. You bring me a deeper understanding of social dynamics, an extra layer that I didn't think I lacked from (sneakier patterns like this Baby girl topic). Thank you!
I see what you did there Alice. Does speaking a language that does gender lead to gendered mindsets? On the top of my mind, Lera Boroditsky led the discussion about how language shape and impact our thoughts. The assignement of gender to nouns, as she believes leads to the belief of gender attributes. This also exploded in Hispanic-America for reforms to the Spanish language to be gender neutral or inclusive. While there are arguments that gender does not have impact on the mindset and that there are other reasons why they exist, such as the classification of animated and inanimated objects. Even though this not what your essay is about just the intro, what do you think? Does gendered languages shape our perception of things?
I think that saying Andrew Garfield needs to dig deeper could be applied to the author of the video. Now, the question is - would that be a kind thing to do or condescending? How would that comment make the author feel? Why would I need to make a comment like that? More importantly, what would that say about me? We’ve all done and said things that weren’t kind because we’ve been unconsciously influenced by the society.
It’s a massive task to do the inventory of our own lives and to realign with our own, and yet, shared values as human beings - to be kind, respectful and compassionate towards ourselves and others as we unlearn, learn and grow. As long as a person is willing to be honest with themselves and to reevaluate what they thought they knew, so that they could actually have the capacity to grow, I applaud that person. Andrew Garfield, as a public figure, shows a good example of that behavior as he openly talks about his struggles and shows his vulnerability. I find that to be refreshing, because, typically in the polarized western society, we haven’t had many healthy examples of that behavior, especially in men.
Let’s all be a little less judgmental and more focused on our own growth. Life is placed on a spectrum between dualities and the goal is not feminine vs masculine for example, it’s about giving yourself and others room to explore the entire spectrum of life and to learn from one another. We’re all human, and yet, we’re all different. We all have our struggles and the opportunity to learn and grow through them. We can even have fun while doing that 😉That’s the truth about life - it’s both hard and beautiful 🤍
What a beautifully insightful breakdown of “masculinity” vs “femininity” and the vastly different lives these phrases represent.
I never realized just how many people are promoting this false sense of empathy for women that comes from a twisted misunderstanding between the difference that comes with what it means to be a woman and what society wants a women to be. Great video!
Great video. Great reflections, as usual. Thank you for posting such high quality content here on UA-cam and in English. It is a global lingua franca, a place of encaunter for people from the whole world. Your confidance while speaking english, as well of the confidance of other creators, had inspired me to not feel ashamed of my eventual misspronunciations and just record. Keep doing your great job here. If I had the means, I would support it. So now I'll comment some random stuff just to help bost thus video engagement. Thank you!
Merci pour ta vidéo, c'est super intéressant et bien réalisé 👍🏻
I'm amab, but have generally identified as enby for a long time. But, I've always worked as a public figure in a really politicized field, so I've rarely felt safe enough express the ways in which I don't really feel comfortable being allied with masculine expressions. And, for that reason, I've generally appreciated and benefited from the existence of masculine presenting characters that center their feelings, emotions, and lived experiences in their characters, or writing. For me, at least, there was no centering masculinity, and deriving femininity in context, but rather the interpersonal struggle with gendered social expectations, and representation, particularly as it pertains TO that hegemonic "stoicism" for men. This was a good video, and got me thinking about a lot more, thanks for making it.
I think, to some extent the existence of mildly subversive masculine presenting role models can participate in a march towards egalitarian social justice, but only insofar as top-down authority in ANY system of change (or revolution) can contribute. Like... certainly things can be done, and something was done for me, but that alone isn't the real mechanism. I found my identity through more than those soft-boy role models, and what I found lasted only because of things-from-the-bottom so to speak.
Hey, first of I wanna thank you for the amazing video, Andrew Garfield caught my eye in the social network, and it's fun to see what has become of him. However, as you pointed out, the discussion on his us of 'feminine' remained a little messy, so I thougth I would contribute my analysis. As I hear him, I can understand what he is pointing at; these uses for gendered language (as a sort of super-abstract dual category) are pretty common. Yet, as you point out, you are not contesting the content of his construal of the feminine category, but the fact that gender labels are helpful in such distinctions at all. I'd agree with you, however, am left with the dilemma: we (and these kids) are going to meet plenty of people calling things 'yang' or 'girly' or whatever gendered language. In some cases, we áre talking about gender, and then still, associations inevetably come up alongside the use of the word feminine. So, how to balance on the one hand: a) building a new, just and inclusive symbolic order, or on the other: b) reshaping the existing use of gendered symbols to represent positive and inclusive aspects of womanhood (instead of defining what a woman cán't be). I hope you agree it's something to think about, and good luck creating the next one!
I am grappling with the same problem! I am still searching for an answer to this dilemma you described to achieve 1) and 2)! I recently realised that the "you go girl"-"girl-power"-barbie"- feminism is also reinforcing gendered stereotypes while trying to uplift and empower women and things associated with femininity.
if you have any thoughts of a solution let me know :)
I don't think I'll ever get a better opportunity to mention how endearing I find your accent. Not just the way you say the words, but the way that french affects your word choices in english. You have this inimitable style - and I have to admit it's a large part of the draw for me.
IDK why I wanna protect Garfield so much, might be all Wolfstar fanfics I read in middle school
Ahhh I’m in that phase right now 😭😭
he's just a bloke.
The Andrew in your fanfic isn't Andrew in real life.
So... Let me get this straight. I'm over half way through the video, and you've given ONE example of this guy being "problematic", and it's something from over a decade ago, where there's clearly no malice, and you yourself admit he was using the language of mainstream feminists at the time?
Like what are we doing here? It honestly feels like you've said absolutely nothing of substance and I'm well over halfway through.
I've been subbed a couple years, but my girlfriend never did. She reckons your content is both ranty and doesn't actually say anything. I've think I've finally understood what she means.
Yes this is a weird video - uses a fictional character he played and an interview format (puppies) used with other actors by a media company to paint a picture of him. Her videos just read as someone knee deep in modern philosphy/theory...probably could get an A+ in a college essay but no wisdom displayed. Though judging by other comments i could be the one missing something!
The video is about how women put men on pedestals for doing the bare minimum of being emotionally expressive and sensitive, Andrew was just used as one of the most recent examples. I don't think she was trying to imply he's bad or a unique case, just using his image as a sample template to describe the phenomenon.
Immediately my mind goes to how in a lot of places, actors historically weren't allowed to testify in court because of how well they could fake real emotion
this was such an interesting analysis, the mindset of recognizing that you also are a part of the problem is so important and true for other forms of discrimination as well. Like you can’t really be anti racist if you don’t aknowledge your own racism first
Not everyone is racist lol
@ everyone that grew in racist society was influenced by it and interiorized racism in many ways so in this sense everyone kind of is
Internalizing guilt puts you in a position where you’re perpetually compelled to improve. That’s one of its advantages
But there are disadvantages to that way of thinking as well. Are you able to acknowledge those?
Now imagine a person who does something racist and excuses himself by saying that everyone is racist in some extent, that is the problem with saying everyone does x thing or everyone does x.
Alice, I just discovered your channel, and it's such excellent work. Your channel reminds me of another great channel at least when it comes to this sort of topic, and that channel is "Pop Culture Detective". Great job.
Please do more on this. I really think theres so much more to be said.
Amazing video Alice! Such important points. In comments under interviews and other video's of these baby girls it becomes painfully clear how impressed people (often women) are by men like this. I would say that for many it is a very profitable performance. Not saying that it is completely removed from how they actually feel about gender roles and feminism and maybe they genuinly care but the responses to 'acting' like this can easily give the idea that dressing more feminine, crying from time to time, maybe painting a nail or two, is enough. Because I am a man 'going against' gender norms I am challenging the system. Not really, as you say very eloquently and it might even be harmful because they don't see themselves as part of the problem; they benefit from the system still and now maybe even to a greater degree because now they also got some of the feminists on their side.
I agree with most that you are saying, but I would like to use this video for reflection and self-reflection. I agree that there are some subconscious misogyny in what this actor says and in general in the 'profem'. On the other hand, pointing it out and shaming it is the most pragmatic solution to go towards a more progressive society? I think that an activist for the LGBTQIA+ community, Immanuel Casto, said it better than me in an interview for the channel 'Breaking Italy'. He pointed out that often progressive people can't agree on how to go towards a certain direction, so they end up not moving at all. As a metaphor, let's say that being progressive means going from A to Z and being conservative means going from Z to A and that there are many ways to go in these directions: on foot, by car, by plane. Progressive people start arguing about what's the best mean of transport to reach the destination and stay stuck in the same place. Conversely, conservatives are much better in agreeing on which direction move and start moving: maybe at some point one arrives at destination, one is halfway and another one made a single step. But they all moved in the direction they wanted. Growing older and seing progressive parties progressively crushed at elections made me wonder if we should start thinking in a more pragmatic and less idealistic way.
The last segment of the video seems to answer the first part of your comment
I do believe that we have to act pragmatically during election time but that we can’t settle for pragmatism in the way we think about society and how we want to change it, we have to be idealistic, set bold vision and accept the pragmatic steps it takes to get there
When it comes to feminism, there are a lot of frameworks to change, a lot of work to do to change the way we understand what feminism means bc the neoliberal appropriation of it has led to a complete disregard for the movement as a whole, that’s what I try to do with my videos on feminism but this one was just a reminder that being an agent of change means recognizing one’s agency in participating in a system, that’s the conclusion of the video. system analysis, an individual’s agency and how the two are linked
@@AliceCappelle I appreciate your videos because they are so idealistic and set a high standard, don't get me wrong. You arr pointing in the right direction, now let's implement a strategy to move all in that direction. I am a woman working in a historically male-dominated field (materials science and engineering). I have many male colleagues and friends who are sometimes overwhelmed by these expectations. Not that we have to congratulate them for the bare minimum (because the bar is in hell), but maybe recognize that they are moving in the right direction. And sometimes I have the feeling that too much idealism can cause a rejection in the general public and a move in the opposite direction. I don't know if it is in your plans for the future, but I think it would be useful in-depth analysis on how to apply these ideals in real life and how effective they are. I am not aware if there are sociological studies about such topic, but I would be interested in it.
I believe we are ALL complicit in systems of oppression and at any given moment can challenge those systems while still benefiting from them which is beyond our control so labeling a group of people as complicit is a monomer. Again we are all complicit.
I love deep thinkers, and I had a massive (like, massive) crush on Andrew Garfield in high school
How's Jacob Elordi not in the thumbnail? The Vox article literally uses him as the focal point.
"the immortals"?? REALLY? that's GOTTA be the most self-absorbed academic title ever
oh yeah, we hate them. None of them are actuals linguist, the only way to be admitted into the French Academy is to be voted into it by the already sitting Immortals, it's dumb as fuck and a hole for public money
That's the same in Brazil, I guess they were inspired by the French. But at least the guy who founded the Brazilian version, Machado de Assis, is black - not many more followed, and the rich have tried to white wash him since ever, because he's undeniably the best Brazilian author, and one of the world's best, so they couldn't just erase him like they did with other black authors back in the day.
Straight out of some fantasy novel
Here in Brasil we also have a term similar to profem, its called “esquerdomacho”, something like ‘leftist male’ and it has a negative conotation. It refers to men who perform this pro feminist discourse but dont actually act on it, they are just “boys lixo” or “trash boys”.
24:24 I respect the hell out of Denzel Washington for not feeding into their shit or laughing along, I know it's a low bar but still
men can literally kill you. do not ever put them on pedestals. these are actors and men are also actors in real life. they know how to come off in a certain way.
In Brazil we call these guys "esquerdomacho", or "leftist macho"
I do still fall into the actor/actress trap, but I'm getting better at catching myself.
can't wait for a video of yours featuring Cassandre & Leo 😁
Yes !!!!!!
To be honest, the term "hollywood baby girls" made it hard, to even fallow the video. It's very infantilizing for any gender. I see your point, I agree. But I see the possibility that Andrew Garfield is on a jurney, to not do essentialization of gender, maybe he'll double down, but I feel there is a possibility for growth. We'll see.
Babygirls is what the fans started, Alice may misinterpret a few things here but she didn't initiate the infantilizing term, though. It's kinda the trend in the business right now and actors who have certain style/appearance have that term directed towards them more (I've seen a case where an actor read a tweet and doesn't know what 'babygirl' means and when explained that "it's a term, mostly used for grown men..." he was like "wtf". But that's that.
It's certainly weird. But Alice's videos are always about internet phenomena so she has reasons to title the video as such
@felix__93 yeah, I'm usually a big fan of this channel. I just think, even though it won't solve the problem of patriarchy, we need famous man to cry on camera, for other reasons than to lose a sports competition. I think if a tenage boy is called a "softboy" or "babygirl" for showing his feelings, it is likely he will either start having hatred towards himself or hatred against anything feminin. As most men experienced with the word gay, used in a derogatory way...
Thank you for saying that . Growing up I never wanted to be called a boy and certainly not after the age of 18. To put the word baby in front of it adds insult to injury.
@@martinae8601 Why do we need famous men to cry on camera?
Isnt the rhetoric coming close to: if not using the most current and "perfect" language ethiquet , you are an hipocrite ?
I believe we are altered there. People who spend a lot of time reading or conferring in the most current sphere have an attitude about them. Every person behind is seen as bad and apologist of the patriarchy. Somewhat true because we were raised this way culturally but I’d like to see the conversation be a real one instead if vilifying everyone with a bot similarly close enough opinion.
@hansmemling7605 true. Most what I have seen in the english language has come to an idelistic vocabulary and - single- "correct" true.
There are a spectrum of acceptable views and treatment of people. Having the belif in yin and Yang comcepts dosent make one worst person then any other cultural belif as any religion. Many in which there are currently moral rejection: as arranged marriege. Actions matters more then words.
As someone who has to learn french in school I just gained a lot of respect for my teachers because we learned the female job titles way before l’académie française said they were okey to use.
Terry Gilliam's Imaginarium of Dr Parnasus features Garfield at I think his best.
fucking amazing film and performance, but... never let me go >>>
You can just say “unquote” - not “end of the quote” 😊
Ça me rappelle la vidéo de Grégoire Simpson sur Ben Névert. Je sais pas si tu connais, mais je pense que t'aimerais bien sa chaîne. Top, comme d'habitude sinon!
Et celles de Léo sur Ben Nevert aussi
it's funny when you mentioned that in french a chair is feminine and a boat is masculine, in my language it's the opposite 🤣
They're both feminine in mine
@@muhammadeisa1459 love it 😂
@@muhammadeisa1459language is so fun
I need to me held in check for sure. I think that every human must be hyper vigilant about what motivates them. Because we all have things we can work on. The way men treat women, the way men treat men, the way that women treat women.
Yeah, about that weird incel phenomenon: in The Netherlands we only use three letters of the Greek alphabet to assign to a person. But unlike incels they describe the field of sciences someone studied. “Gamma”-sciences are behavioral (law, economics, etc..), “Beta”-sciences are the exact sciences and “Alpha”-sciences are….humanities. Therefore Alice is an Alpha.
I was yesterday years old when I learned you can use baby girl for men. It's a joke.
Alice thank you for making this video. Totally agree here, and I might add always felt Andrew Garfield as contrived.
Tbh, I believe Andrew Garfield is nothing but a niceguy trying to collect his "feminist points" in order to be perceived as one of the "good ones" by women.
Agreed.
Listening to Garfield desperately backpedal is like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Even knowing how useless it is, I can't help but call out, "Stop! No! Please stop!"
Happy to see someone mention Bell Hooks' The Will to Change! I have the feeling people don't talk about it as much as it deserves.
The concluding remarks about men's moral agency is a good one, and it's also why Michelle Obama made the remark in the excerpt at 19:25 . It's unconstructive in my opinion to frame Obama's remark as a "disclaimer" that she "has to make" - she included it with the politically strategic intention of appealing to men's agency, if I had to guess. She probably wants men to better see themselves as being helpful to women through their political choices.
It's obvious that feminism has better tools for me (a man) to be ethically adequate to women, when compared to the gender ideology that conservatives in my country (the USA) offer. But it seems like there's a preponderance of men doing feminism badly or falsely, like Andrew Garfield, "pro-fems," etc. and I worry a lot that I would fall into the same traps.
Great video, Alice!
I love the ending message : we have agency
I feel silly for feeling this way but when I wash my dishes I feel the water running around and over my dishes is more representative of who people are than any traditional gender roles any of us get assigned. Only people make us feel insecure and that can get in the way of who we really are. And that's another way of saying gender is fluid and people are fluid but I can't say that to many in my family because they've done heard people say that gender is fluid and they'll dismiss me. I still think femininity and masculinity can be good and more inclusive forms of both should be humanized so we all can express ourselves how we want to express ourselves.
Love the video! Love the hair! ❤
8:40 It's not a huge part of the video but it's maybe worth pointing out that Peter Parker only "gets the girl" _after_ he becomes Spider-man - in no tellings i'm aware of is it _ever_ before. Peter's an old-school nerd essentially, near the bottom of the male pecking order since long before "subordinate masculinities" was ever coined. Spider-man empowers him (in almost all versions, _Spider-man_ is wisecracking and supremely confidant - he's basically who Peter wished he was if only he weren't awkward and weedy, the "after" of the bodybuilding adverts old comics used to feature).
(very true about the system of course, _everyone_ is complicit - the first person that ever told me "Big boys don't cry" was my mother, not my father - but arguably for men it's less _forced_ complicity. "Arguably" BTW because the causes/effects web is so complex, it's potentially unknowable IMO)