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@@miloshevmilos4392 that's because the two who didn't know were aasked to comment on the evidence of the case by the ITF, the third was brought in to corroborate sinner defence by his team, wich is pretty common in many legal cases
@@nazzarenaambrosi1789 è nella documentazione ed è procedura standard in questi casi, uno deve sentire il team dell'accusato e lui stesso, dormi tranquillo bello
You're literally the first non italian source I found citing Bortolotti's case. Thank you, what happened to him can help disprove many of the malignity around Sinner "having preferential treatment because he is number 1".
things you missed -amount was deemed not performance enhancing -2nd positive test was linked to the same dose he tested positive in the first test (8 days apart) -sinners legal team followed the same rules that were in place for everyone else, cases vary, legal teams vary for example halep INJESTED roxadustat (not commonly contained in any medical kit that you can purchase without prescription) in amounts deemed performance enhancing. her legal team for multiple reasons wasnt able to follow the same route sinners legal team was able to, and in the end she was never fully cleared unlike sinner. i dont understand people saying he got preferential treatment.
7:15 watch the video INTENTLY before you make bold claims like this, the reason why there is so much misinformation about this case is because people like you make claims without verifying first.
@@gtab1268 ehm why was he negative prior indian wells considering how slowly it depletes? it took 8 days for a -10% and we are talking about 10% of 0.00000000001 mL "my bold claims" are what the multiple experts working on the case said on the public report, clearing sinner for a reason. on the contrary you seem to know better, pretty cool anyways good thing you pointed this out, shows the bias
Guys, you are really naïve. Most of doping drugs are designed to wear off. They stop taking it 2 weeks before a tournament. It is designed to be useful afterwards, but no test can catch it, except of a sudden test between the tournaments. They stalk Chinese this way in the hope to catch them by surprise. This is never done for American athletes, and some European. What us important is that Sinner started to play much better suddenly. If you think this is because of more training, you are kidding yourself. Say, he needs to increase the muscle mass. This is done not by eating like crazy. Eating must be accompanied by proper drugs, which are not allowed. They simply miscalculated something. In a day or two there would have been no traces of the doping. 😊
As a nurse, knowing what I have witnessed about the general public's attitudes towards handwashing/contamination...personally, I find the story about Naldi massaging Sinner's feet without gloves while having a cut that is past the initial healing stage to be unfortunately believable, although as a physiotherapist he should have known better. I think the majority of people would not think twice about making contact with someone with a small cut that has already scabbed over. I can see him applying the spray to speed up the healing in terms of preventing a scar, despite the cut already being healed at that point. Also, the definition of "open wound" is kind of vague, I don't believe the cut would have been open in terms of being able to mix blood with Jannik, but people underestimate the permeability/absorption capabilities of the skin barrier especially when it is compromised.
That's why Sinner fired his fitness coach and physio. They were careless, and there's too much at stake for Sinner to risk working with people who don't dot every "i" and cross every "t".
@@mir-jan3496 maybe the wound wasn’t open, just a scab and healing, I’m sure he was not bleeding. This story are more common in Italy and in the other countries where this spray is available over the counter.
@@concettadalimonte8476 ci stanno marciando tutti su Sinner. I dopati veri ne approfittano paragonando le loro situazioni di doping massico con Sinner...
@AstronautKazaplierwe’re not the ones that decide if he’s innocent or not… the organization of EXPERTS that do decide say he’s innocent. So no it’s not about who you believe or don’t because even when experts say he’s innocent you doubt it simply because u don’t like him lol
@AstronautKazaplierexperts who know more than you arrived at the conclusion that it hasn't given him any advantage. Experts who look out for everything, look at scientific literature and cases, and know doses and different substances, who knows the times needed for a substance to disappear, etc... Are saying that. Read the report.
The 'two tests' part is so misleading and dangerous by the journalists. Its not like his two positives were taken at two completely different points in the year, but 8 days apart, while being continuously exposed by the physio unknowingly. Both tests had basically the same minute amount. This indicates that he was under constant contamination within the 8 days of the two tests, and there wasn't any sort of decay of the compound during body metabolism. The amount was also shown to have no enhancing effect on his performance, and his file was reviewed by experts anonymously (they don't know player's identity or rank to protect objective resolution). If you dont trust the experts, idk what to tell you... His biological passport has been CLEAN all other times of his career. Players are tested several times throughout the year, and always at the major slams. The headline of all these articles discredits a lot of the things sinner has accomplished throughout his career smh... people need to learn to not just read headlines and to make informed opinions before passing judgment.
The only people who overreacted are those who didn't bother to read about the case. Their only source of information were media headlines and comments by people on social media who also didn't read about the case
That's not true. Those more familiar with anabolic steroids will immediately notice that clostebol has been an ongoing theme among Italian athletes. Sinner's story may be true, but he got a much softer treatment than others especially given how many Italian athletes in particular have popped for clostebol specifically. You can believe his story but still admit that at best it's a huge failure of his management and punishment is inevitable.
@@telquel7843 He's innocent, 100% totally not his fault, not complicit in his own health, not responsible for being a pro player, totally didn't know or had the obligation to find out, and certainly not telling any lies at all to avoid punishment. Nothing to see here except poor victim Yannik.
@@Left-Foot-Brake legitimately can't tell if this is sarcasm or an AI post. Hoping for sarcasm because compliance is literally his responsibility regardless of who he employs as part of his team. That is the nature of solo sports and that's how the law has been enforced in tennis historically.
@@telquel7843 It is a sarcastic post claiming Jannik is not innocent. Everything he said he means the reverse of. That is, he claims Sinner is not innocent, 100% totally his fault, complicit in his own health, responsible for being a pro player, totally knew and had the obligation to find out, and certainly did tell lies to avoid punishment. Nothing to see here except assailant Yannik.
whats crazy to me is how people rage about double standards saying that x or y player got banned for a decade despite being innocent and how it was unfair to them, and then proceed to demand the same thing to be done to sinner in the name of "justice". i mean, nothing better then keep being unfair in the present and future because someone was treated poorly in the past, right? why bother improving the system and procedures so that such unfair incidents won't happen again i think instead of raging at sinner for how his case has been developed and demanding he's given the same said harsh and unfair penalties due to past cases beeing terribly handled, the focus should be on standardizing and clarifying the rules, so that in the future players are guaranteed fair treatment like sinner was, as djokovic said
there was no difference in the treatment, the other simply lost their appeal because most of them didn't knew how the contamination did happen, Sinner was able to explain it, and prove that no intention nor negligence did happen, so it was able to keep playing and the investigation keep going without any alert to the medias. If Sinner didn't knew how the infection did happen in time (5 days starting from the reception of the mail) he would be suspended like the others and the media would be alerted of his suspension and contamination.
I've been reading the same objections for days, when the case has been explained and re-explained. And these objections are always brought forward by the same people. Misinformation is now no longer an excuse. Who could understand, understood. The others will go on and on creating a case and suspicions because they are haters. Before they had other excuses to attack Sinner, later they will find others. Haters gonna hate.
Thanks. Finally somebody who treated the argument with a much higher amount of depth. Thank you for this. First of all I, declare it, I am a Sinner fan. There are a few considerations I'd like to add: 1) Nobody explains why the case wasn't made public. According to what I heard from experts it seems that according to ITIA rules, if the appeal is successful the player can keep on playing and the process cannot become public. This is a rule and not special treatment for being Nr. 1. Marco Bortolotti ranked 355 had the same treatment. Now, can anybody think this is a bad idea? Can anyone imagine what would have happened during this last summer in the social media while Yannik was playing tennis waiting for the definitive judgement? Great success for bloggers and haters!!!! 2) If ITIA let Yannik play it is only because it was absolutely clear that this was not a case of doping and the final judgement would have confirmed the innocence. Otherwise ITIA would have suspended him. There is no shortcut here. 3) Nowaday players have a biological passport that helps ITIA to understand very quickly if Sinner was doped. Sinner's passport was in order. Maybe in other cases the passports were not in order and this made the difference? Could you please explain in a future video how the biological passport works for everybody to understand it? It would be very helpful for the future for tennis supporters that really want to understand things. Obviously it will be useless for normal haters. 4) The players that get to the final stage of tournaments are systematically tested and Yannik must have been tested innumerous times since Wimbledon 2023 with no failed test. 5) Clostebol is an absolutely unsophisticated substance used in the years 70/80 ot the past century for Eastern Germany athletes. Nowadays this substance is well known and therefore absolutely easy to detect. 6) Now, does anybody think it is logical that Yannik could decide, at the age of 21, to put his entire bright career at risk using a billionth of a gram of an archaic doping substance easily detectable and with no effect on his performance? Where is the logic??? 7) I wish that Yannik's colleagues had taken the time to read the 33 pages of the sentence and the ITIA rules before expressing their opinion on such a delicate case.
I mean judging by his performance at the Us open and the way he is going about it in social media, his attitude hasn’t change a lot, which makes me think that he didn’t intentionally take the substance. He seems to know that he didn’t take purposely and thus he is competing and acting normally. Of course that is speculation.
Talks of inconsistency in treatment just failed to understand the rule itself - a basic fact not covered by this vudeo. The rule is that once you are test positive you are subject to liability - including suspension. However, if you can prove on balance of probabilities that you are not at fault or negligence in respect of the positive test (refer to TADP 10.5) then your suspension can be fully eliminated. Further if you can prove on balance of probabilities that you are not at significant fault or negligence in respect of positive test (refer to TADP 10.6) then their suspension can be reduced. The ITIA report on the Sinner case discussed at length the definition of ‘no fault or negligence’ and ‘no significant fault or negligence’ in the TADP rules and precedence in interpreting these rules. The reduction or elimination of suspension depends on ‘fault or negligence’ or responsibilities or intention as many people think. The two rules test remove any ambiguities in determining whether you get full elimination of suspension period (as was the case with Sinner) and just partial elimination (as was the case with Halep). With Halep, CAS determined that partial reduction of suspension (from 4 years to 9 months) was appropriate as she did not exercise sufficient care when using the contaminated Keto MCT supplement. In other words she bear some fault or negligence but it was not significant in the overall scheme of things. So a reduction of suspension period applied as she was of no significant faults or negligence). However, this means she is NOT of ‘no faults or negligence’ so there cannot be full elimination of her suspension period (as envisaged under TADP Rule 10.5). In the Sinner case, an independent tribunal of three lawyers (after consideration of evidence including those of 3 WADA accredited scientific experts) that Siner was not at fault or negligence so his suspension can be full eliminated (as was the case). By deduction he can never be of ‘no significant faults or negligence’ which would have meant he must still serve some suspension. There is no ambiguities or double standards rather it is the case of subtle difference in between the absolute of no faults or negligence and no significant faults or negligence - a difference that only lawyers can appreciate even though the consequences are enormous (full elimination of suspension vs just partial). In this respect, it poor form not to include a legal expert in this video rather just rely on the views of tennis players (none of whom have the legal expertise of the three lawyers on the independent tribunal in the Sinner case). Matters are determined by the actual rules and actual evidence not what people thinks on social media (as is the case demonstrated by the reaction to the Sinner case).
Thank you for a thorough and balanced look at the Sinner doping charge. I agree that the big problem is that many players end up being suspended for a long time and then have the time shortened or they are even cleared. The officials need to develop a process that is much quicker and fairer to the players.
Speaking as a person with a bachelor's and master's degree in exercise science and currently in a PhD program, I think this story tells us how often elite athletes work with inexperienced professionals and how often the role of physiotherapists and physical trainers is overestimated. How is it possible that a physical trainer with a degree in pharmacy (?) allows the physiotherapist with a cut finger, who treats his athlete without gloves (??), to take a drug that in the circuit already made 38 (!!!) athletes in trouble with the anti-doping system (????). That's the main thing that made me crazy of this whole story.
The reason why there have been many cases of positivity to clostebol in Italian athletes, is because in Italy is a very common product and therefore is easy to get contaminated. The small amounts found in Jannik body, have been declared by same people as 'remnants' of higher dosage, forgetting that these athletes have a biologic passport and they are checked very often. Sinner bio passport never reported any trace of prohibited substances
Thanks for explaining this issue objectively and as you said you play fair and no BS.. I hope people Will see that Jannik is a good person and is never a cheater 🎾🥕
also because cheaters are the ones who get advantages and in sinners case that amount was non-performance enhancing according to the 3 independent experts working on the case
Be auii dans ce mondes yaura toujours des personnes méchantes et zero dans leurs cerveau 🧠 !! Q importante jannik lui avance et baller tout sure son chemin 🎉🎉🎉😊forza jannik siamo con te !!!✌
@@user-ir7qs3oe9ewell that's just the level left at the time of testing. It's infinitesimal at the time of testing which is just a failure of his team in their cycle. Italian athletes have been popping for this specific steroid for decades. It could be that it's widespread existence led to continuation but it also could plausibly be that he cycled off too late. People are acting like there is no chance Sinner was using PEDs and that is not at all a reasonable conclusion scientifically. 🤷 I also can't say for sure he was. But a ban is warranted here because at best his team failed him badly and at worst this is a coverup for a bad cycle.
@@user-ir7qs3oe9e All other players should do the same way like Sinner, dop micro to play the tennis games and give the same explanation to ATP, level-up together, that is fair to ATP
you miss some points.. the amount was deemed not performance enhancing in Halep case the amounts was deemed performance enhancing, Sinner follow same rules that were in place for everyone else.... 3rd like roddik said "i never saw someone doing massages with gloves in my career" and you can still see it when a player call for medical attention in a match 4rd you miss every studies on clostobol and how easily it filters through the skin 5rd In his defense he showed videos and photos of his physiotherapist's cutting and the massage to the team of experts...you said you want to talk only about facts but you didn't mention a lot of it
The dosis was in the nano-area. Had never an influence to his performance, and he never wanted to do this. Was an accident. Jannik is such a correct, grounded, nice and fair guy. Yes, some people are overreacting!
The whole point of taking performance enhancing drugs is that you can mask them in the testing or shed most of the metabolites before test day. It's extremely rare that someone who pops for steroid use has significant amounts these days. You want to believe he is innocent and that's fair. But he is still responsible and should have faced consequences like other former pros.
@@telquel7843this is something they never grasp, almost all failed tests are for minute amounts since athletes time their cycles with the goal of eliminating all of the substance from their system before testing.
@@telquel7843 to be fair, there are many other players who faced exactly the same consequences, as it is said in the video too. He quoted Bortolotti as an example but it's not even the only one
The spray case had a negative affect on him more than positive. Now that it’s behind him, he’s back to being how he was at the start of the season before he was contaminated.
It is so hard to be a pro sportsman in the modern times. We are surrounded with more chemicals than ever, the laboratory tests are ridiculously precise, the game is more challenging than ever, the media backlash on everything is greater than ever... Sinner looks to me as a well put young man, but it is definitely tough on him. As always, great production and delivery with the right balanced view on the situation!
One thing missing from the video that would have been nice would be an explanation of what the substances does, and how it could be used to enhance performance.
Thank you for listening to your community, you did a great job. Hopefully people's opinions will get more balanced as time goes by and the initial frustration fades away. I definitely hope that this situation will produce some fairer anti-doping rules... as you pointed out, the system should be blamed, not the players, although it is human to do the opposite. Keep up the good work! ☺️
I think by now all these speculations are getting old and tiresome. A tribunal composed of experts concluded he is NOT guilty. If you think he did cheat then produce your own expert report that shows in the same detail that Jannik intentionally doping is a highly likely scenario based on the facts of the case. We have not seen any medical expert opinion or report doing this so far. If you find that the process is inconsistent and/or unfairly applied in the case of Sinner make a report detailing which rulings and processes are being applied incorrectly or inconsistent and what should be changed to improve this. Again also here the complainers failed to produce anything close to this. For as long nothing of the above is done complains have no further value than conspiritorial and populist speculations they are now
Thank you for the deep dive on this case. I appreciate when people do their research before judging I would like to add a couple of things: - the photo/video footage from the tournament where you can actually see the physio bandage on his finger - the fact that the amount of substance found in his body was deemed not performance enhancing Also you mentioned that Sinner is a well balance guy, also I would had that in whole these years Sinner always showed his honesty and fair play (e.g. over the years giving points to the opposite side even when misjudged by the referee) I found horrible to see haters jumping on the news without informing themselves accusing him without even think he was innocent (even though he was declared so!) Also I found very frustrating the confusion beetwen contesting the clarity of the rules with contesting the case itself 😔 Thanks for the video
the way you know it was an accident is that if it wasn't sinner would make flat earthers look smart take a tiny amount of a drug to point where it would barely effect his performance and then do nothing to hide the drugs from the drug test so he still gets caught I mean what a genius play from sinner
Everybody is talking about a preferential treatment for Sinner, however nobody pinpoint where a rule was relaxed or waived for Sinner. Each case is different and it might be more or less difficult to prove the circumstances. In same cases it might even be impossible to prove your innocence.
Sinner's “doping case” is the only one I have ever seen where I feel that the accusers and the critics themselves don't really believe what they are saying.
10:03 “hot takes” from professional players…. Shows Kyrgios and Shapo, one absolute clown/goon who will probably never play again and a half player who is already out of the top 100. Definitely important opinions.
The fairytale invented by Sinner and his team doesn't hold up. Kyrgios is right. You test positive twice,you pay the price. Sinner, Ferrara and Naldi are world level pros. They only have themselves to blame.
To all you smart people who defend him and his doctors, why would a million dollar kind of doctor willingly give gime something that they know is banned, if it isn't to help his performance? Why would they not be aware of the problematic compound before deciding to administering it on him?
Yes people are overreacting and tbh I’m starting to think that while tennis has some of the most humble, and nice players, it has some of the worst fans, who love to really be mean to players. If anything, it was highly irresponsible from the trainer who could have ruined Janiks career due to negligence.
I think it's just overzealous Novak fans and some unhinged terminally online no-lifers who are insisting that Jannik is a cheat. Look at the reactions he's still getting on US Open, barely anyone boo's him lol.
'' barely anyone boo's him'' ofcourse since Italy is a western country his country is politically with the US but what if he were a russian? They wouldve eaten him alive
I’m a Djokovic fan but I believe Sinner. I actually root for him except when he plays against Nole, but still happy for Jannik when he wins. So, don’t generalize.
"But one thing I also want to encourage is for fans not to tear down players with hateful words despite not agreeing with everything that's played out" I wish you Western folks practised the same with Chinese and Russian players.
You do realize he's asking for people not to do this bc he knows many will and is trying to mitigate it. We've already been seeing it happening in this case
Another way to look at this is how few violations there are. My opinion is that this was unintentional by the players accused or there would be higher concentrations and a violation would occurred earlier in their careers. I would give them the benefit of the doubt unless the amount was clearly substantial. Also the fact that the appeal was successful is credible. Not every guilty verdict should be met with condemnation. If Sinner or anyone else continued to be in violation then I would no longer be giving any benefits. Of course you coan always argue these players have great lawyers and violate in the most sneaky of ways. I understasnd tennis is not a perfect sport and there are many instances of throwing games and out right cheating. At this point i do not suspect cheating at least with intent here. Also the higher your rank the more you are under scrutiny.
Removing the packaging while traveling is pretty common, tbh unfortunately I believe they were superficial about it bc dermatitis is falsely not considered as much as a cut even tho the contamination is pretty much the same.. btw there’s a judgement given so it’s not between Sinner and his team, they checked everything and they ruled it as an incident. Other athletes should just stay out of the matter if they don’t want to document themselves 🤔
Some inaccuracies. You talk about the risk of exchanging body fluids by not using gloves for the massage, but the spray used, in addition to promoting healing thanks to the steroids, creates a protective film, plus Naldi had applied a plaster, so it was certainly not an open wound. That no physio, apart from the covid period, uses gloves for stronger massages is something any athlete can say. Ferrara had brought the bottle with him without the cardboard box, the doping symbol was printed only on the box, then the photos you posted refer to the ointment of the same product, not to the spray that was used.
Thanks for best video i have heard on the subject. The quantity dected is extremly small. (Picograms = 10 to power of minus12 ). Key question: is this amount performance enchancing? Clearly, No. I think that the whole process was too slow & these players should be judged innocent unless proven otherwise. The US open win puts paid to anyone who doubts Sinner's brilliance.
Medvedev makes a good point. If you can't prove innocence you still suffer and that's tough. So any player who can demonstrate the cause of the contamination should be treated the same as Yannick
Djokovic was locked , put in prison , kicked from Australia Open , then whole 2022. played small tournaments and finally US. banned his enter for US.Open in September of same year . Why ? Because he was totally clean .Plus he rejected anti Covid vaccine - but that's Djokovic , man we love to hate . I'm glad he's back and won his 24 Slam in N.Y .
O' Connell, T.Paul, Mcdonald put up 0.0000000001 clostebol and tried to win against Sinner... but it didn't work. Sinner best tennis player in the world... So much for conspiracy theorists.
They banned a drug used to heal cuts. It's absurd. None of the drug testing rules are ethical. It's a process we will look back on and hold our heads in shame. Lance Armstrong earned his tours fairly.
i 'm really curious if he really uses such drugs.. one part of me says he doesn't because he's young full of energy, he's fit, i'm sure he' s training a lot..my other part says maybe he does, because the energy , the speed he has and how he can keep it up for 2-3-4 hours is incredible, it's already dodgy.....
I agree with those making the simplest point: was the amount of clostebol taken enhancing Jannik performance, yes or no? Had it actual doping effects? Digressing: Sacha Zverev suffers from a condition, diabetes type 2. He checks his blood sugar levels on every second game of any given match, during the timeout. He needs to take insulin supplements (and immediately eat something) if the levels drop down below his calibrated threshold. Now insulin supplements are primary “doping substances” included in the list of forbidden stuff issued by the anti doping authorities (WADA). Should Sacha be banned from playing tennis forever since his condition is never gonna change? No, because the cause of the presence of “artificial” insulin in his blood stream is crystal clear. And the amount of the substance never surpasses the threshold level over which it’ll be considered dopant.
Noah you make the best video essays ever!! I wish more people were into tennis (outside of recreational playing and watching it on tv) so this channel could be more popular
Not to mention Rotterdam 3 weeks before and Miami 2 weeks after the nanopicomosquito enhancing amount, ridiculous, glad he's been able to clear it immediately. Sorry for who was not able to avoid the suspension, but probably also other amounts were at stake, although I'm speculating. I agree with the trainer and father of Nadal, disproportionate punishments at the first positivity, but anyway there are rules and judges and it is what it is...
Thanks, the details matter. People who want to ensure they get the unfiltered facts should read the report on the ITIA site. Sadly, too many people love to create drama, but the facts really aren't dramatic. The ITIA's whole reason for being is to prevent corruption/doping, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary, there's no reason to believe that their Sinner investigation wasn't legitimate.
"I'm not going to fuel any rumors or speculation" he says as he fuels rumors and speculation. The whole concept of rumors is to say something negative in passing without digging into whether its true or not. It would be much better form for you to actually track down the source of the rumor rather than just parrot it non-committedly Also, there have been studies on clostobol contamination and I'm not sure how you could research this case and not be aware of the De la Torre 2020 study, this is a very common talking point in this discussion
I guess you're going to ignore the dozens of athletes who were caught using these specific steroid from Italy as a PED and go straight to the one contentious contamination example. Which still misses the point - even if accidental he's still responsible. He's got a whole team for this. Sharapova got the hammer. 🤷 Even with all of the benefit of the doubt - he should serve a ban. Otherwise why even bother asking what your physio is rubbing on your leg? Maybe you don't say so but you hope it's HGH 🙃
@@telquel7843 Naldi didn't rub a cream on Sinner. Naldi applied a spray to himself without Sinner's knowledge and then gave Sinner massages. How are you supposed to know to ask about something you don't even know they're using? Naldi was negligent, Sinner was not And how exactly is the De la Torre study is a contentious example? Yes Clostobol is also often used for doping in Italy, it's easy to access. It also has scientifically been proven to be easily transmissible and hence get into people's systems that aren't doping, and once again it's in products readily used all over Italy, so contamination is a definite concern And Sharapova is a totally different case. She was using a drug that was not banned yet. Then it got banned but she wasn't keeping up with the banned substances list and kept using it. That's absolutely nothing like this scenario at all
@@telquel7843 it was accidental and yes he is responsible, which is why he got points taken away and money stripped despite not being at fault. the presence of a banned substance warrants a sanction, despite no fault. he is the ceo of this team and took the fall for it. he didn't get suspended because they put in an immediate appeal with all the evidence claiming possible contamination and NOT ingestion. sharapova admitted that her case was a mistake on her part, she ingested the contaminant. claiming contamination and ingestion are two completely different cases with different outcomes. what about simona halep? she claimed contamination from her coach patrick, however, she did not submit an immediate appeal to lift her suspension. She unfortunately did not have enough evidence or could provide the receipts to prove her case. that is the difference between these two cases. every case is different, thus they are handled differently and the resolution or sanction follows... :)
@@JohnPaulJones-e6o which brings us to the point where only grotesque drug failures are meaningful and we obviously aren't really trying to keep the sport clean. The reality is that no professional team like this is going to allow Sinner to fail a test with anything but nano doses because that's how anabolic cycling works as well as masking. If athletes will only ever be caught with trace amounts whether accidental or intentional - why even test them really? If it's that easy to at least open the window for a contamination claim. You act as if all the evidence in detail is a matter of public record that you have verified. But that's not true. I think the general public is largely naive to the amount of PED usage in professional sport but at the same time there is very little incentive to truly stop it. So now PED usage is just part of the meta game of the sport. And I don't love that and it tends to benefit those who already have the means to put into practice a sophisticated PED programme.
SIMPLEST ANSWER IS ALSO THE EASIEST - DO WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL RACING: If ONE racer accuses ANOTHER racer of "cheating"... .... (wait for it) ... ... THEY BOTH GET INSPECTED. SIMPLE AS THAT. IF one PLAYER wishes to ACCUSE Sinner of "cheating", then that player simply has to SUBMIT TO THE SAME TEST AS THE PERSON HE ACCUSES. You'd be AMAZED at how WELL this works in RACING ! -Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
The issue is not one of consistency, it is that there IS and basically ALWAYS WILL BE a problem of innocent players getting punished, but that's because of how much of the burden of the proof that they were not responsible for the substances found in their bodies weights on them. But how can you address this? It's difficult to argue against the need for the athlete to carry a substantial burden, otherwise people would be able to get away with anything if, after finding the substance, the antidoping agencies should also be responsible for proving how it entered the body. Sinner was lucky that it became immediately apparent to his team who had contaminated him and how, and that they could provide evidence for how it happened. Had he not been able to do that, he would have been banned no matter what. The only thing that can help these athletes is maniacal attention to details and basically avoiding any contact with anyone they can't fully trust.
It'll never be perfect but I can see a couple improvements thatbcan be made. Giving more than just 5 days to appeal could give athletes necesarry time to figure out where the contamination could come from Also, less wealthy players could benefit from financial support for a legal team. Perhaos the PTPA could establish a fund for this
Well said. But imho the appealing process seems to be redundant with the independent tribunal, and could still lead to inconsistency when determining whether to accept or reject the appeal. I am more inclined to get rid of suspension but have the player to go through more frequent tests during investigation. And the trial should have a hard deadline to prevent lengthy investigation. This way at least innocent players do not get harsh initial punishment such as suspension; a more serious punishment can be applied after the players are proven guilty.
38 Italian Athletes in 4 years... that is NOT a coincidence I get it might not be deemed enhancing levels, blah blah blah, but why is one nation repeatedly doing the same thing, has to be something in it
What is missing in your analysis, which apparently seems detailed, are two aspects. The first is the half-life of clostebol and the second concerns the frequency with which tennis players are checked during the slams. For this reason you minimize the significance of the quantities of clostebol found. Surely, given the intensity of Sinner's tennis commitments, he was subjected to previous tests, not very far away in time, from which he resulted negative. Therefore, taking into account the half-life of clostebol and the quantities found in the blood, the scientists were able to affirm without a shadow of a doubt that it was contamination. Regarding negligence there can be different interpretations but not on the fact that it was doping or contamination.
Clostebol is legal in the medicine in Italy Per onesta' intellettuale se dici che molti tennisti italiani erano positivi al Clostebol devi anche dire che il Clostebol è contenuto in tante pomate vendute nelle farmacie italiane
I believe in Sinner‘s cleanness just intuitively based on his outer look of his character and because I also like him. Irrespective of this, I just can’t get rid of entertaining the idea of if that kind of news came out about Djokovic, what/how the western public reaction would have been.
I actually believe Sinner's story. This stuff was in verrrry tiny amounts in his system and was legal in Italy. And he has gained 0 muscle. Everyone needs to relax
I appreciate your careful analysis of the case. Still I think it leaves doors opens on things that are actually crystal clear. The “double standard” argument that is mentioned so much is actually inconsistent once you acknowledge the case od the other italian player ranked 400th or so. That’s it. an almost identical case solved in the same way and with the same times. It’s pointless comparinf it to cases such as the ones of Halep or Sharapova. For how much the case of Halep could have been unfair, it is actually annoying and unfair how Halep said in these days that there was a double standard. Same for all the ones that “advocate” for more equity in doping cases. They come out now that a case supposedly has gone the eay it was supposed to go, with no favoritism at all? They shouldn’t be such hypocretes and raise their voice when justice is unfair, not when it works, as in this case. Such a behaviour makes me think they try to find a way to attack an otherwise impossible to attack person (Sinner). It’s interesting how almost no one in the various discussions online or among players has mentioned the difficulties Sinner had to go through, hypotising him innocent. That alone should make realize how he has gone through much more than he deserved. Everyone talkinf about advantages he had and no one comsidering the disadvantages of such an unfair burden.
WADA revealed something recently. Yannick had been taking or swallowing a drug or dope which gives Sinner extra strength and stamina. As his country belongs to the NATO peace time lobbyist group which refused to disband after the fall of communism, his drugs intake allegations will likely be thrown out. I like Yannick Sinner though, like everyone in the western hemisphere. His team claims his team's mistaken administering of a performance enhancing drug has mistakenly made him the superman of tennis. I sometimes used to feel tired when I played in Marblehead. So I may try buy Sinner's physio';s recommended Trofodermin used accidentally by tennis player Sinner. Great information for casual tennis players with less energy after a work day.
interesting how his legal team was so quick to sort this out right, it's like they knew already was might be coming, lol, not fishy at all, no way.....
Great video! Can you create one on the speculations that atp and wta will be going to merge soon and what things can potentially change on the tennis tour if that happens.
I have to say good work. The video approach the matter at the right level of details stating facts and some small clarification to better understand them. Everyone cam have his opinions on the matter but whitout any data they are quite useless.
Here are three reasons why the anti-doping process provides double standards, even if the decision-makers do not know the identity of the player whose case they are reviewing. 1) The rules on appealing the provisional suspension 2) The lack of standards and practices in setting a trial date. 3) The arbitrary nature of the decisions of the ITIA, Sports Resolutions, the Tribunal, and CAS. We can see all three at play when comparing Halep to Sinner. I realize not everybody reading this is American so I'll preface this with the explanation that the following is based on the concept of due process, which historically is more central to Anglo-American government in preventing double standard. In particular, due process is enshrined in the Fifth & Fourteenth Amendments in the U.S. Constitution, however it has changed over time on its interpretation.
(1) The provisional suspension is what bans players from playing while waiting for the trial, AND the execution of the provisional suspension is also when the media is notified of the player's failed drug test. An appeal, if approved, prevents you from being banned until the trial, AND prevents media from being notified of your failed drug test. The problem is that the appeal window is only 10 days from the moment you are notified of your failed drug test. Researching the source of drug contamination in all your supplements, food, etc, takes several weeks, and even multiple months. Lab tests alone can take weeks to process. Therefore, a sincere investigation of factual evidence to find the source of contamination is not able to appeal the provisional suspension in 10 days. Conversely, an explanation of contamination that is void of scientific data or fact, can meet all legal requirements for innocence, and appeal within 10 days. This is the epitome of a rule which does not provide due process. Halep had all the scientific data for her innocence two months after being notified of her failed test. This is a quick turnaround time. Her trial was not for another nine months. During the entire nine month period, the evidence she presented was not allowed to be looked at to remove the provisional suspension, because she had not met the 10 day window for appeal. This resulted in a ban of eleven months even though no trial had yet taken place!! For Sinner, NO scientific data was presented in his appeal. They literally wrote an explanation that he was contaminated via the finger of his physio, and the appeal was granted. His appeal’s explanation, like Halep’s explanation, corresponded to the amount of the drug found in his system. Also, in each case, the amount in the body was shown to correspond to an amount that could not have helped performance. The 10 day window prevents due process, and is effectively a platform for a double standard. This window needs to be removed, and any appeals submitted prior to the trial need to be heard.
(2) There are no standards for how long the trial will be from the time you were notified of your failed drug test. One person may be found innocent in the trial, after having been provisionally suspended for four months, but another person may also be found innocent in the trial, after having been provisionally suspended a full year. Again, this is the epitome of a system without due process. This literally allows for completely arbitrary suspension lengths. Length of time to trial needs to be standardized for proper due process. Halep waited eleven months, while Sinner waited four. Even if all the reasons for the postponements in Halep’s case were due to some type of valid reason, a 7 month discrepancy is way too much and cannot be allowed. Reasonable deadlines must be set, and neither party should be allowed to indefinitely postpone.
(3) Over the years, the decisions of the ITIA, the Tribunal, Sports Resolution, and the Court of Arbitration for Sport have been shown to be arbitrary. The most glaring was after Halep had already been provisionally suspended in Oct. ‘22, and the ITIA decided to use data from blood samples taken before and after Halep’s nose surgery in Sept. ‘22, in order to cite Halep for an additional charge of irregularities on her Athlete Biological Passport. This is a high degree of incompetence by the ITIA to use samples from these dates to illustrate irregularities. The ABP data was thrown out by CAS when Halep won her appeal to the Tribunal guilty verdict. Halep’s surgery was stated in advance in the press for all to hear. Of all players getting surgeries that affect blood sample data, causing irregularities in their ABP, the ITIA suddenly decided that it would make sense to charge Halep with this irregularity during the waiting period for her trial to begin. This had people in an uproar, justifiably so. The decision to use these dates can easily be interpreted as worse than arbitrary, but actually predatory….AND at this point in May ‘23, the ITIA knew they were dealing with Halep, as opposed to the Tribunal dealing with an unknown subject later in the trial in Sept. ‘23. The faulty ABP data greatly influenced the Tribunal’s decision to judge Halep for intentionally doping. Halep's explanation of taking a contaminated supplement was backed with purchase receipts, and scientific data from tests of the contaminated supplement, shown not to have benefited the player’s performance, and corresponded to the amounts shown in her body from her drug test results. Despite this, they arbitrarily decided against the scientific evidence provided by Team Halep’s research, even though they had no data of their own that refuted it. It’s likely the ABP charge affected their decision, since it was incorrectly being used to show Halep benefited from the drug in her system over a long period of time. The Tribunal claimed the amount in her system was greater than the supplement could cause, despite having no scientific data to back their assertion. This assertion was also reversed by CAS in Halep’s appeal, just as the ABP data. CAS used the scientific evidence provided by Halep’s team, admitting, “that Ms. Halep had established, on the balance of probabilities, that the Roxadustat entered her body through the consumption of a contaminated supplement” and was not intentional doping. They pronounced Halep to “bear no significant fault or negligence,” like Sinner. Sinner's explanation of receiving a massage from a contaminated physiotherapist was not backed by anything but circumstantial evidence. Essentially, none of Sinner's story can actually be proven, and even the receipts of the product containing the drug were in question. In Sinner’s case, the decision was similar to a teacher in school deciding if a student’s excuse for missing class sounded believable or not. They simply decided they believed his story, having no reasons for why his story was any more believable than Halep’s or any other player’s excuse. Regardless of the ABP confusion, it’s a 100% arbitrary decision in which the Tribunal need not state precedents, evidence, or any data whatsoever used to describe the logic involved in their decision. This resulted in a decision of 4 years for Halep vs nothing for Sinner. Given that Halep provided scientific evidence and Sinner could not, this was essentially a backwards result from what you would expect. Finally, even though CAS reduced Halep’s suspension from 4 years to 9 months, this still shows disparity compared to the decision awarded Sinner by the Tribunal. The ruling of nine months was not predicated on the drug providing Halep with any benefit, but rather, the fact that Halep dispensed the drug to herself - i.e. it was a pill she knowingly swallowed on her own volition. Although Halep was unaware of the drug being in the supplement, and the drug was not listed in the supplement’s ingredients, she gave herself the supplement, and is therefore liable for the drug entering her body. Sinner did not give himself the massage, and was not aware the drug was on the finger of his masseuse; therefore, he was not liable for the drug entering his body. This is void of any real meaning or substance, which is an attribute of arbitrary decisions. For proper due process, such a distinction would only make sense if the person actually was considered to have benefited from the drug, or judged to bear fault or negligence. Without due process, in essence, if Halep said she had not wanted to take the supplement, that her trainer put the supplement in his own smoothie, then accidentally gave Halep his smoothie instead of her smoothie, then IF CAS believed her story, Halep would not have been sentenced to serve nine months because she did not purposely put the supplement in her body, and was not aware it was put in her body by her trainer. Such decisions boil down to arbitrary feelings of the people judging. In each case, Halep and Sinner were judged to “bear no significant fault or negligence,” yet one sentence was nothing and the other was nine months. In either case, “bear no significant fault or negligence” must be treated the same. Discussions of who performed the literal action which put the drug in the body should not be entertained, unless the player does in fact bear significant fault and negligence, or the drug benefited their performance. Due process decisions must be made with uniformity, reference to precedents, and data to backup assertions.
Summary. When you combine the double standard from point (1) with point (2), you can literally have two players found innocent by the tribunal; yet, one serves no provisional suspension, and another serves a year provisional suspension. Combine this with point (3) and you can have what we saw with Halep vs Sinner: two players found to “bear no significant fault or negligence,” and the drug not resulting in performance benefit, yet one had no punishment and the other had a year and five months.
@@kevinbrianfahy , as for all of the comments I read from people saying this was a case of double standards, it seems you are FORCING the comparison between Halep and Sinner cases rather than just analyzing the two cases separately as they should. 1) Halep tested positive for a completely DIFFERENT substance than Sinner, hence with different possible implications. 2) Halep tests revealed a higher quantity of the substance compared to Sinner, also proved by her biological passport which presented suspect values. 3) These values proved - as Halep also confirmed - that she DIRECTLY took the substance (even if not on purpose), so it was not a case of cross-contamination from another source like in Sinner's case. All of these points are the reason why it took much more a) for Halep to understand what happened b) for the trial to reach a verdict. Even if Sinner did not present scientific reasons, he certainly provided sufficient proof that could support his explanation - such as the receipt of the spray that was bought; proof of the cut on Naldi's hand, and probably others. In any case, regardless of Sinner's case, I really don't understand how people are continuously comparing totally different cases just because they are doping ones. it's not that one can only test positive for a single specific substance, and it would be completely non-sense to expect all cases to be judged in the same way and within the same time period!
I like the guy and dont want to judge, but its hard not for me to root for the guy! What you explained is their defense/arguments and asking us to take it at face value! What if he was under and got caught, but the leaders are scared to admit the world #1 is caught - and the ATP boss is Italian! Okay if he is not found guilty, why would they have him forfeit prize money/points? - this to me seems like some sort of "paid it off"
Sinner should fire the phd fitness trainer, How can someone be some negligent repeating mistakes and saying he didn't know.. As Taylor Fritz said, it stays between them. All I can say, Tennis is Life for Sinner winner..
But it is over. The ruling was made and Sinner is allowed to continue to play. If it isn't over to people who wanted a guilty verdict, then it will then be over to them. How long can you discuss the same thing over and over and over?
I'm not really interested in men's tennis, but after the Cincinnati story broke, I followed the case a bit. Sinner was not declared innocent. The jury only found it plausible that the doping finding could have been possible due to the course of events described by Sinner's lawyers. And although this doesn't change Sinner's responsibility for the finding, thanks to very good (expensive) lawyers he was able to avoid a longer ban thanks to a technicality. Whether you believe the story itself depends on you.
Thats just how law works. Innocent until proven guilty. It must be shown beyond a reasonable doubt. If you were on trial for something, you'd want the same treatment The timing of the two tests and the quantity found makes the story more plausible than intentional doping. To take enough of the substance to enhance performance, the quantity would have to be higher. If it was originally higher but only caught on the tail end in the first test, it would not be in the second test at all due ti it being 8 days later. Either that or he would've had to take a fresh dose but then it would be found to be much higher And Clostobol has been shown in scientific studies to be highly transmissable, so the explanation he provided makes sense
You cannot prove something that you didn’t do. You can only prove that the explanation you suggested is true. It is physically impossible for Sinner to prove that he didn’t actively take steroids, because what kind of proves you want? 24h videotape of his life in the past month? Then people would still be asking, well what happened when he was in the bathroom?
- it was kept secret to protect player identity when the file is being reviewed by the experts so that they don't know the player's identity or rank to keep the judgement of the file objective. - some players get suspended on day one of finding a substance due to the amount and the kind of substance. In Sinners case, his drug is primarily used as an over-the-counter antiseptic that just so happens to be a steroid with anabolic secondary effect. moreover, the amount in his system was so minute that it was found to have no enhancing effect on his performance. he also submitted an immediate appeal claiming contamination and provided receipts and evidence of the events leading up to the contamination and had his suspension lifted. if you don't submit an appeal in time, you get suspended, like Simona halep. if you ingest the drug or miss tests that also causes suspension differences.
I would be interested in knowing when the previous anti-doping test performed on Sinner was conducted, in order to answer the question: is it possible that that low percentage in the blood was the residue of a higher percentage?
Like all tennis players, he has been subjected to anti-doping tests in every tournament he plays, plus a certain number of surprise tests are carried out during the periods in which they do not play, another 7 or 8 per year. In practice, the tests are more than 20 per year, Sinner was tested before and after Indian Wells, that is, during the Australian Open and Miami.
The athletes also have a biological passport. Blood tests would have revealed anomalies if it had been a high-dose intake, anomalies not found in the tests.
This is why they have the secind test. He had near udentucal anount 8 days later. If he got caught in the tail end of the metabolization the first time it'd be gone by the second test.
The 'two tests' part is so misleading and dangerous by the journalists. Its not like his two positives were taken at two completely different points in the year, but 8 days apart, while being continuously exposed by the physio unknowingly. Both tests had basically the same minute amount. This indicates that he was under constant contamination within the 8 days of the two tests, and there wasn't any sort of decay of the compound during body metabolism. The amount was also shown to have no enhancing effect on his performance, and his file was reviewed by experts anonymously (they don't know player's identity or rank to protect objective resolution). If you dont trust the experts, idk what to tell you... His biological passport has been CLEAN all other times of his career. Players are tested several times throughout the year, and always at the major slams. The headline of all these articles discredits a lot of the things sinner has accomplished throughout his career smh... people need to learn to not just read headlines and to make informed opinions before passing judgment.
Well it wasnt similar She's a victim of the problems in the systen Medvedev was pointing out. She didnt know how it got in her system in time, and so couldnt successfully appeal like Sinner did. It also was found at quantitues that could boost performance whereas Sinner's wasn't, which surely didnt help her case
Because most of the commentators are: 1. Sinner fans 2. Italians 3. People who will believe the sky is red if the media or the "experts" tell them so. That's it.
@@MMerlyn91 gee man, your posts don't make sense. You're also somewhat racist. Take it easy and get a life! (And don't comment tennis when you have no clue about the sport)
@@distico Guy from the first two categories I've mentioned, Italian Sinner fan. Probably 3 applies as well. With every comment you're only proving me more right. Keep them coming lol. P.S.: And he threw the "racist" buzzword even though Sinner is white lol.
i dont believe he was treated differently, its just the rules are so complex and that they never protect the player. like idt there is one standardized set of rules. there are different resolutions for different drugs, amount, context, claim...etc. for example, the sinner and halep cases are different. sinner claimed contamination and the second he found out he tested positive, he figured out what compound from the test and traced it back to the spray. he had the evidence and receipts to show that it was plausible exposure and contamination by his physio. this tracked with the minute amount in his system that had no enhancing effect on his performance. by putting in an immediate appeal, the suspension was successfully lifted. halep also claimed contamination, but she couldnt provide all the evidence and submit her appeal for the suspension on time. she also had a larger amount in her system and the compound was not the same, so the cases are quite different in terms of resolution. sinners compound is primarily an antiseptic with secondary anabolic side effects, whereas haleps drug primarly increases production of erythropoietin. by not putting in her appeal her case was locked and she got suspended. she also had abnormalities in her biological passport. the takeaway is that sinner followed the rules, its just that the rules are tricky. perhaps he had a better legal advisory team and was able to be better informed on these rules bc they are so vague... who knows. but players like medvedev say the same. sinner followed the rules, they are just vague. the real scare is testing positive and not knowing where it came from and being able to prove that it was contamination like in haleps case. the system needs to improve, these things need to be standardized.
Regardless of how you feel this is very fishy , but we will never know . Doping in tennis is huge , as it is in all professional sports so it’s once again very fishy . Their professional they know exactly what’s going on and into their bodies .
This situation only took off from Sinner with zero benefits. With free mind, I am sure he would do even better in wimbledon a Rolland garros. He got sick with this stress and also missed Olimpics. Of course, for his rivals in sports, having a Sinner out of the field would be a great benefit.
'Course he was stressed, it's normal when you got caught. I've never had the shadow of a doubt about Sinner fairness, until I heard Cahill telling that ridiculous story. Why lying? Not once but twice. The first time about the whitdraw from the olympics, and now about the way he tested positive. Very disappointing.
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I think that an important detail also is the fact that 2 out of 3 experts that judged the case didn't know who was the subject of the investigation.
otherwise, one of they really knew who is the sinner, how independent
@@miloshevmilos4392 that's because the two who didn't know were aasked to comment on the evidence of the case by the ITF, the third was brought in to corroborate sinner defence by his team, wich is pretty common in many legal cases
Il due su tre chi te l'ha detto?
@@nazzarenaambrosi1789can't recall, one of many pieces I read about the case. Anyway the ITF report will note if you want to look for it
@@nazzarenaambrosi1789 è nella documentazione ed è procedura standard in questi casi, uno deve sentire il team dell'accusato e lui stesso, dormi tranquillo bello
You're literally the first non italian source I found citing Bortolotti's case.
Thank you, what happened to him can help disprove many of the malignity around Sinner "having preferential treatment because he is number 1".
Bortolotti’s case has been cited by many others.
@@riccardopoliti1286 "I found"
That's why they have promptly shifted to "having preferential treatment because he is italian".
things you missed
-amount was deemed not performance enhancing
-2nd positive test was linked to the same dose he tested positive in the first test (8 days apart)
-sinners legal team followed the same rules that were in place for everyone else, cases vary, legal teams vary
for example halep INJESTED roxadustat (not commonly contained in any medical kit that you can purchase without prescription) in amounts deemed performance enhancing. her legal team for multiple reasons wasnt able to follow the same route sinners legal team was able to, and in the end she was never fully cleared unlike sinner.
i dont understand people saying he got preferential treatment.
That's what Lance Armstrong said.
7:15 watch the video INTENTLY before you make bold claims like this, the reason why there is so much misinformation about this case is because people like you make claims without verifying first.
@@gtab1268it’s so annoying to see people do this. They don’t read or listen attentively but are quick to type rubbish.
@@gtab1268 ehm why was he negative prior indian wells considering how slowly it depletes? it took 8 days for a -10% and we are talking about 10% of 0.00000000001 mL
"my bold claims" are what the multiple experts working on the case said on the public report, clearing sinner for a reason. on the contrary you seem to know better, pretty cool
anyways good thing you pointed this out, shows the bias
Guys, you are really naïve. Most of doping drugs are designed to wear off. They stop taking it 2 weeks before a tournament. It is designed to be useful afterwards, but no test can catch it, except of a sudden test between the tournaments. They stalk Chinese this way in the hope to catch them by surprise. This is never done for American athletes, and some European. What us important is that Sinner started to play much better suddenly. If you think this is because of more training, you are kidding yourself. Say, he needs to increase the muscle mass. This is done not by eating like crazy. Eating must be accompanied by proper drugs, which are not allowed. They simply miscalculated something. In a day or two there would have been no traces of the doping. 😊
As a nurse, knowing what I have witnessed about the general public's attitudes towards handwashing/contamination...personally, I find the story about Naldi massaging Sinner's feet without gloves while having a cut that is past the initial healing stage to be unfortunately believable, although as a physiotherapist he should have known better. I think the majority of people would not think twice about making contact with someone with a small cut that has already scabbed over. I can see him applying the spray to speed up the healing in terms of preventing a scar, despite the cut already being healed at that point. Also, the definition of "open wound" is kind of vague, I don't believe the cut would have been open in terms of being able to mix blood with Jannik, but people underestimate the permeability/absorption capabilities of the skin barrier especially when it is compromised.
That's why Sinner fired his fitness coach and physio. They were careless, and there's too much at stake for Sinner to risk working with people who don't dot every "i" and cross every "t".
@@BassByTheBay Yes, it was a sensible move on his part.
same, as a doctor working in a hospital well, it’s more common than anyone could think unfortunately.
Nonsense story, a professional, nobody do that, giving massage with open wound. Many same stories heard in Italian sport.
@@mir-jan3496 maybe the wound wasn’t open, just a scab and healing, I’m sure he was not bleeding. This story are more common in Italy and in the other countries where this spray is available over the counter.
People talk like that spray gave Sinner super powers smh. Im sure caffeine has more performance enhancement effect than that silly spray.
Ma si Basta!!! Questi sonni fuori de testa 😂😂
@@concettadalimonte8476 ci stanno marciando tutti su Sinner. I dopati veri ne approfittano paragonando le loro situazioni di doping massico con Sinner...
Sure
@AstronautKazaplierwe’re not the ones that decide if he’s innocent or not… the organization of EXPERTS that do decide say he’s innocent. So no it’s not about who you believe or don’t because even when experts say he’s innocent you doubt it simply because u don’t like him lol
@AstronautKazaplierexperts who know more than you arrived at the conclusion that it hasn't given him any advantage.
Experts who look out for everything, look at scientific literature and cases, and know doses and different substances, who knows the times needed for a substance to disappear, etc... Are saying that. Read the report.
The 'two tests' part is so misleading and dangerous by the journalists. Its not like his two positives were taken at two completely different points in the year, but 8 days apart, while being continuously exposed by the physio unknowingly. Both tests had basically the same minute amount. This indicates that he was under constant contamination within the 8 days of the two tests, and there wasn't any sort of decay of the compound during body metabolism. The amount was also shown to have no enhancing effect on his performance, and his file was reviewed by experts anonymously (they don't know player's identity or rank to protect objective resolution). If you dont trust the experts, idk what to tell you... His biological passport has been CLEAN all other times of his career. Players are tested several times throughout the year, and always at the major slams. The headline of all these articles discredits a lot of the things sinner has accomplished throughout his career smh... people need to learn to not just read headlines and to make informed opinions before passing judgment.
The only people who overreacted are those who didn't bother to read about the case. Their only source of information were media headlines and comments by people on social media who also didn't read about the case
That's not true. Those more familiar with anabolic steroids will immediately notice that clostebol has been an ongoing theme among Italian athletes.
Sinner's story may be true, but he got a much softer treatment than others especially given how many Italian athletes in particular have popped for clostebol specifically.
You can believe his story but still admit that at best it's a huge failure of his management and punishment is inevitable.
@@telquel7843 He's innocent, 100% totally not his fault, not complicit in his own health, not responsible for being a pro player, totally didn't know or had the obligation to find out, and certainly not telling any lies at all to avoid punishment. Nothing to see here except poor victim Yannik.
@@Left-Foot-Brake legitimately can't tell if this is sarcasm or an AI post.
Hoping for sarcasm because compliance is literally his responsibility regardless of who he employs as part of his team. That is the nature of solo sports and that's how the law has been enforced in tennis historically.
@@telquel7843 It is a sarcastic post claiming Jannik is not innocent. Everything he said he means the reverse of. That is, he claims Sinner is not innocent, 100% totally his fault, complicit in his own health, responsible for being a pro player, totally knew and had the obligation to find out, and certainly did tell lies to avoid punishment. Nothing to see here except assailant Yannik.
I read enough, and I am 100% sure that Sinner got nice fair treatment compared to Simona Halep
whats crazy to me is how people rage about double standards saying that x or y player got banned for a decade despite being innocent and how it was unfair to them, and then proceed to demand the same thing to be done to sinner in the name of "justice". i mean, nothing better then keep being unfair in the present and future because someone was treated poorly in the past, right? why bother improving the system and procedures so that such unfair incidents won't happen again
i think instead of raging at sinner for how his case has been developed and demanding he's given the same said harsh and unfair penalties due to past cases beeing terribly handled, the focus should be on standardizing and clarifying the rules, so that in the future players are guaranteed fair treatment like sinner was, as djokovic said
Esatto! 👍
This.
there was no difference in the treatment, the other simply lost their appeal because most of them didn't knew how the contamination did happen, Sinner was able to explain it, and prove that no intention nor negligence did happen, so it was able to keep playing and the investigation keep going without any alert to the medias. If Sinner didn't knew how the infection did happen in time (5 days starting from the reception of the mail) he would be suspended like the others and the media would be alerted of his suspension and contamination.
Which is more or less the opinion of the father of Nadal, and I totally agree
Should be suspendend while they checked it. Thats all
I've been reading the same objections for days, when the case has been explained and re-explained.
And these objections are always brought forward by the same people.
Misinformation is now no longer an excuse. Who could understand, understood.
The others will go on and on creating a case and suspicions because they are haters.
Before they had other excuses to attack Sinner, later they will find others.
Haters gonna hate.
Thanks.
Finally somebody who treated the argument with a much higher amount of depth. Thank you for this.
First of all I, declare it, I am a Sinner fan.
There are a few considerations I'd like to add:
1) Nobody explains why the case wasn't made public. According to what I heard from experts it seems that according to ITIA rules, if the appeal is successful the player can keep on playing and the process cannot become public. This is a rule and not special treatment for being Nr. 1. Marco Bortolotti ranked 355 had the same treatment. Now, can anybody think this is a bad idea? Can anyone imagine what would have happened during this last summer in the social media while Yannik was playing tennis waiting for the definitive judgement? Great success for bloggers and haters!!!!
2) If ITIA let Yannik play it is only because it was absolutely clear that this was not a case of doping and the final judgement would have confirmed the innocence. Otherwise ITIA would have suspended him. There is no shortcut here.
3) Nowaday players have a biological passport that helps ITIA to understand very quickly if Sinner was doped. Sinner's passport was in order. Maybe in other cases the passports were not in order and this made the difference?
Could you please explain in a future video how the biological passport works for everybody to understand it? It would be very helpful for the future for tennis supporters that really want to understand things. Obviously it will be useless for normal haters.
4) The players that get to the final stage of tournaments are systematically tested and Yannik must have been tested innumerous times since Wimbledon 2023 with no failed test.
5) Clostebol is an absolutely unsophisticated substance used in the years 70/80 ot the past century for Eastern Germany athletes. Nowadays this substance is well known and therefore absolutely easy to detect.
6) Now, does anybody think it is logical that Yannik could decide, at the age of 21, to put his entire bright career at risk using a billionth of a gram of an archaic doping substance easily detectable and with no effect on his performance? Where is the logic???
7) I wish that Yannik's colleagues had taken the time to read the 33 pages of the sentence and the ITIA rules before expressing their opinion on such a delicate case.
yes poit 6 of your argument - so well said - u nailed it.
I mean judging by his performance at the Us open and the way he is going about it in social media, his attitude hasn’t change a lot, which makes me think that he didn’t intentionally take the substance. He seems to know that he didn’t take purposely and thus he is competing and acting normally. Of course that is speculation.
Oh yeah, Djokovic didn't hit the lineswoman purposely too. But they didn't spare him. I guess there are different rules for different people.
@@ragas2845You are comparing apples with oranges.
Excellent, evenhanded, and clear presentation. Subscribed.
Talks of inconsistency in treatment just failed to understand the rule itself - a basic fact not covered by this vudeo. The rule is that once you are test positive you are subject to liability - including suspension. However, if you can prove on balance of probabilities that you are not at fault or negligence in respect of the positive test (refer to TADP 10.5) then your suspension can be fully eliminated. Further if you can prove on balance of probabilities that you are not at significant fault or negligence in respect of positive test (refer to TADP 10.6) then their suspension can be reduced. The ITIA report on the Sinner case discussed at length the definition of ‘no fault or negligence’ and ‘no significant fault or negligence’ in the TADP rules and precedence in interpreting these rules.
The reduction or elimination of suspension depends on ‘fault or negligence’ or responsibilities or intention as many people think. The two rules test remove any ambiguities in determining whether you get full elimination of suspension period (as was the case with Sinner) and just partial elimination (as was the case with Halep). With Halep, CAS determined that partial reduction of suspension (from 4 years to 9 months) was appropriate as she did not exercise sufficient care when using the contaminated Keto MCT supplement. In other words she bear some fault or negligence but it was not significant in the overall scheme of things. So a reduction of suspension period applied as she was of no significant faults or negligence). However, this means she is NOT of ‘no faults or negligence’ so there cannot be full elimination of her suspension period (as envisaged under TADP Rule 10.5). In the Sinner case, an independent tribunal of three lawyers (after consideration of evidence including those of 3 WADA accredited scientific experts) that Siner was not at fault or negligence so his suspension can be full eliminated (as was the case). By deduction he can never be of ‘no significant faults or negligence’ which would have meant he must still serve some suspension.
There is no ambiguities or double standards rather it is the case of subtle difference in between the absolute of no faults or negligence and no significant faults or negligence - a difference that only lawyers can appreciate even though the consequences are enormous (full elimination of suspension vs just partial). In this respect, it poor form not to include a legal expert in this video rather just rely on the views of tennis players (none of whom have the legal expertise of the three lawyers on the independent tribunal in the Sinner case). Matters are determined by the actual rules and actual evidence not what people thinks on social media (as is the case demonstrated by the reaction to the Sinner case).
Thank you for a thorough and balanced look at the Sinner doping charge. I agree that the big problem is that many players end up being suspended for a long time and then have the time shortened or they are even cleared. The officials need to develop a process that is much quicker and fairer to the players.
Speaking as a person with a bachelor's and master's degree in exercise science and currently in a PhD program, I think this story tells us how often elite athletes work with inexperienced professionals and how often the role of physiotherapists and physical trainers is overestimated.
How is it possible that a physical trainer with a degree in pharmacy (?) allows the physiotherapist with a cut finger, who treats his athlete without gloves (??), to take a drug that in the circuit already made 38 (!!!) athletes in trouble with the anti-doping system (????).
That's the main thing that made me crazy of this whole story.
The reason why there have been many cases of positivity to clostebol in Italian athletes, is because in Italy is a very common product and therefore is easy to get contaminated. The small amounts found in Jannik body, have been declared by same people as 'remnants' of higher dosage, forgetting that these athletes have a biologic passport and they are checked very often. Sinner bio passport never reported any trace of prohibited substances
Thanks for explaining this issue objectively and as you said you play fair and no BS.. I hope people
Will see that Jannik is a good person and is never a cheater 🎾🥕
also because cheaters are the ones who get advantages and in sinners case that amount was non-performance enhancing according to the 3 independent experts working on the case
Be auii dans ce mondes yaura toujours des personnes méchantes et zero dans leurs cerveau 🧠 !! Q importante jannik lui avance et baller tout sure son chemin 🎉🎉🎉😊forza jannik siamo con te !!!✌
@@user-ir7qs3oe9ewell that's just the level left at the time of testing. It's infinitesimal at the time of testing which is just a failure of his team in their cycle.
Italian athletes have been popping for this specific steroid for decades. It could be that it's widespread existence led to continuation but it also could plausibly be that he cycled off too late.
People are acting like there is no chance Sinner was using PEDs and that is not at all a reasonable conclusion scientifically. 🤷
I also can't say for sure he was. But a ban is warranted here because at best his team failed him badly and at worst this is a coverup for a bad cycle.
You are a blind supporter
@@user-ir7qs3oe9e All other players should do the same way like Sinner, dop micro to play the tennis games and give the same explanation to ATP, level-up together, that is fair to ATP
I think because of Sinner's Status in the sport of Tennis this has been blown out of proportion. Double Edge sword.
you miss some points.. the amount was deemed not performance enhancing in Halep case the amounts was deemed performance enhancing, Sinner follow same rules that were in place for everyone else.... 3rd like roddik said "i never saw someone doing massages with gloves in my career" and you can still see it when a player call for medical attention in a match
4rd you miss every studies on clostobol and how easily it filters through the skin
5rd In his defense he showed videos and photos of his physiotherapist's cutting and the massage to the team of experts...you said you want to talk only about facts but you didn't mention a lot of it
The dosis was in the nano-area. Had never an influence to his performance, and he never wanted to do this. Was an accident. Jannik is such a correct, grounded, nice and fair guy. Yes, some people are overreacting!
Sorry for the long comment 😢
The whole point of taking performance enhancing drugs is that you can mask them in the testing or shed most of the metabolites before test day.
It's extremely rare that someone who pops for steroid use has significant amounts these days.
You want to believe he is innocent and that's fair. But he is still responsible and should have faced consequences like other former pros.
@@telquel7843this is something they never grasp, almost all failed tests are for minute amounts since athletes time their cycles with the goal of eliminating all of the substance from their system before testing.
@@telquel7843 to be fair, there are many other players who faced exactly the same consequences, as it is said in the video too. He quoted Bortolotti as an example but it's not even the only one
The nano dose was at the time of testing and is a common amount for when a steroid is metabolised.
The spray case had a negative affect on him more than positive. Now that it’s behind him, he’s back to being how he was at the start of the season before he was contaminated.
But now every time he plays well people say 'it's because doping'
@@alessandrochapra9862 He's playing out of his mind again, and I'm sure he was thoroughly tested before the US open. Haters' gonna hate...
@@alessandrochapra9862che parlannno 😂😂😂blablabla blablabla sans fondement !! Ma jannik avavsa
😊😊😊🎉forza campione 😊😊😊
@@Ligmaments Dopers' gonna dope...
@@Leoian-s3j troll
It is so hard to be a pro sportsman in the modern times. We are surrounded with more chemicals than ever, the laboratory tests are ridiculously precise, the game is more challenging than ever, the media backlash on everything is greater than ever... Sinner looks to me as a well put young man, but it is definitely tough on him.
As always, great production and delivery with the right balanced view on the situation!
One thing missing from the video that would have been nice would be an explanation of what the substances does, and how it could be used to enhance performance.
WADA have appealed the dismissal of the test results
Looks like you are going to have to revisit this subject again.
Thank you for listening to your community, you did a great job. Hopefully people's opinions will get more balanced as time goes by and the initial frustration fades away. I definitely hope that this situation will produce some fairer anti-doping rules... as you pointed out, the system should be blamed, not the players, although it is human to do the opposite.
Keep up the good work! ☺️
I think by now all these speculations are getting old and tiresome.
A tribunal composed of experts concluded he is NOT guilty.
If you think he did cheat then produce your own expert report that shows in the same detail that Jannik intentionally doping is a highly likely scenario based on the facts of the case. We have not seen any medical expert opinion or report doing this so far.
If you find that the process is inconsistent and/or unfairly applied in the case of Sinner make a report detailing which rulings and processes are being applied incorrectly or inconsistent and what should be changed to improve this. Again also here the complainers failed to produce anything close to this.
For as long nothing of the above is done complains have no further value than conspiritorial and populist speculations they are now
Very nice analisi, i like so much your class and proper investigation of the facts, bravo, and thanks very much as Sinner fun ❤
Thanks for this balanced and clear review.Sinner shows great sportsmanship all along so he will move on successfully.
Thank you for the deep dive on this case. I appreciate when people do their research before judging
I would like to add a couple of things:
- the photo/video footage from the tournament where you can actually see the physio bandage on his finger
- the fact that the amount of substance found in his body was deemed not performance enhancing
Also you mentioned that Sinner is a well balance guy, also I would had that in whole these years Sinner always showed his honesty and fair play (e.g. over the years giving points to the opposite side even when misjudged by the referee)
I found horrible to see haters jumping on the news without informing themselves accusing him without even think he was innocent (even though he was declared so!)
Also I found very frustrating the confusion beetwen contesting the clarity of the rules with contesting the case itself 😔
Thanks for the video
the way you know it was an accident is that if it wasn't sinner would make flat earthers look smart take a tiny amount of a drug to point where it would barely effect his performance and then do nothing to hide the drugs from the drug test so he still gets caught I mean what a genius play from sinner
Everybody is talking about a preferential treatment for Sinner, however nobody pinpoint where a rule was relaxed or waived for Sinner. Each case is different and it might be more or less difficult to prove the circumstances. In same cases it might even be impossible to prove your innocence.
Sinner's “doping case” is the only one I have ever seen where I feel that the accusers and the critics themselves don't really believe what they are saying.
I've been behind Sinner all the way!!! We know he's an honest guy!!! And that little bit of Clostebol won't give him super powers!!! 🤦🏼♀️
10:03 “hot takes” from professional players…. Shows Kyrgios and Shapo, one absolute clown/goon who will probably never play again and a half player who is already out of the top 100.
Definitely important opinions.
The fairytale invented by Sinner and his team doesn't hold up. Kyrgios is right. You test positive twice,you pay the price. Sinner, Ferrara and Naldi are world level pros. They only have themselves to blame.
To all you smart people who defend him and his doctors, why would a million dollar kind of doctor willingly give gime something that they know is banned, if it isn't to help his performance?
Why would they not be aware of the problematic compound before deciding to administering it on him?
Yes people are overreacting and tbh I’m starting to think that while tennis has some of the most humble, and nice players, it has some of the worst fans, who love to really be mean to players.
If anything, it was highly irresponsible from the trainer who could have ruined Janiks career due to negligence.
Way too many tennis fans are disgusting and toxic. I feel sorry for young players subject to all kinds of hate and criticism online these days
I think it's just overzealous Novak fans and some unhinged terminally online no-lifers who are insisting that Jannik is a cheat. Look at the reactions he's still getting on US Open, barely anyone boo's him lol.
Yeah if you see most of them are called Like petrovic alexandrovic etc
'' barely anyone boo's him'' ofcourse since Italy is a western country his country is politically with the US but what if he were a russian? They wouldve eaten him alive
I’m a Djokovic fan but I believe Sinner. I actually root for him except when he plays against Nole, but still happy for Jannik when he wins. So, don’t generalize.
"But one thing I also want to encourage is for fans not to tear down players with hateful words despite not agreeing with everything that's played out" I wish you Western folks practised the same with Chinese and Russian players.
You do realize he's asking for people not to do this bc he knows many will and is trying to mitigate it. We've already been seeing it happening in this case
Another way to look at this is how few violations there are. My opinion is that this was unintentional by the players accused or there would be higher concentrations and a violation would occurred earlier in their careers. I would give them the benefit of the doubt unless the amount was clearly substantial. Also the fact that the appeal was successful is credible. Not every guilty verdict should be met with condemnation. If Sinner or anyone else continued to be in violation then I would no longer be giving any benefits. Of course you coan always argue these players have great lawyers and violate in the most sneaky of ways. I understasnd tennis is not a perfect sport and there are many instances of throwing games and out right cheating. At this point i do not suspect cheating at least with intent here. Also the higher your rank the more you are under scrutiny.
Removing the packaging while traveling is pretty common, tbh unfortunately I believe they were superficial about it bc dermatitis is falsely not considered as much as a cut even tho the contamination is pretty much the same.. btw there’s a judgement given so it’s not between Sinner and his team, they checked everything and they ruled it as an incident. Other athletes should just stay out of the matter if they don’t want to document themselves 🤔
Some inaccuracies.
You talk about the risk of exchanging body fluids by not using gloves for the massage, but the spray used, in addition to promoting healing thanks to the steroids, creates a protective film, plus Naldi had applied a plaster, so it was certainly not an open wound.
That no physio, apart from the covid period, uses gloves for stronger massages is something any athlete can say.
Ferrara had brought the bottle with him without the cardboard box, the doping symbol was printed only on the box, then the photos you posted refer to the ointment of the same product, not to the spray that was used.
People didn't know the details about the situation !
Because they're too lazy to read about it
This affair exposed Kyrgios again as the spiteful classless angry muppet he is. Jannik bangs his ex and wins slams, tough to swallow.
Thanks for best video i have heard on the subject. The quantity dected is extremly small. (Picograms = 10 to power of minus12 ). Key question: is this amount performance enchancing? Clearly, No.
I think that the whole process was too slow & these players should be judged innocent unless proven otherwise. The US open win puts paid to anyone who doubts Sinner's brilliance.
Medvedev makes a good point. If you can't prove innocence you still suffer and that's tough. So any player who can demonstrate the cause of the contamination should be treated the same as Yannick
Djokovic was locked , put in prison , kicked from Australia Open , then whole 2022. played small tournaments and finally US. banned his enter for US.Open in September of same year . Why ? Because he was totally clean .Plus he rejected anti Covid vaccine - but that's Djokovic , man we love to hate . I'm glad he's back and won his 24 Slam in N.Y .
O' Connell, T.Paul, Mcdonald put up 0.0000000001 clostebol and tried to win against Sinner... but it didn't work. Sinner best tennis player in the world... So much for conspiracy theorists.
They banned a drug used to heal cuts. It's absurd. None of the drug testing rules are ethical. It's a process we will look back on and hold our heads in shame. Lance Armstrong earned his tours fairly.
C'est comme faire 100 km avec une goutte d'essence
i 'm really curious if he really uses such drugs.. one part of me says he doesn't because he's young full of energy, he's fit, i'm sure he' s training a lot..my other part says maybe he does, because the energy , the speed he has and how he can keep it up for 2-3-4 hours is incredible, it's already dodgy.....
I agree with those making the simplest point: was the amount of clostebol taken enhancing Jannik performance, yes or no? Had it actual doping effects?
Digressing: Sacha Zverev suffers from a condition, diabetes type 2. He checks his blood sugar levels on every second game of any given match, during the timeout. He needs to take insulin supplements (and immediately eat something) if the levels drop down below his calibrated threshold. Now insulin supplements are primary “doping substances” included in the list of forbidden stuff issued by the anti doping authorities (WADA). Should Sacha be banned from playing tennis forever since his condition is never gonna change? No, because the cause of the presence of “artificial” insulin in his blood stream is crystal clear. And the amount of the substance never surpasses the threshold level over which it’ll be considered dopant.
Noah you make the best video essays ever!! I wish more people were into tennis (outside of recreational playing and watching it on tv) so this channel could be more popular
Sinner was clean when he won AO, so it's not a big deal really.
Not to mention Rotterdam 3 weeks before and Miami 2 weeks after the nanopicomosquito enhancing amount, ridiculous, glad he's been able to clear it immediately. Sorry for who was not able to avoid the suspension, but probably also other amounts were at stake, although I'm speculating. I agree with the trainer and father of Nadal, disproportionate punishments at the first positivity, but anyway there are rules and judges and it is what it is...
How ridiculous it is that it's taken this long for people to really think about standardizing something like this.
Rules are the same for every player.
Individual cases are not, you cannot standardise that .
Thanks, the details matter. People who want to ensure they get the unfiltered facts should read the report on the ITIA site. Sadly, too many people love to create drama, but the facts really aren't dramatic. The ITIA's whole reason for being is to prevent corruption/doping, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary, there's no reason to believe that their Sinner investigation wasn't legitimate.
"I'm not going to fuel any rumors or speculation" he says as he fuels rumors and speculation. The whole concept of rumors is to say something negative in passing without digging into whether its true or not. It would be much better form for you to actually track down the source of the rumor rather than just parrot it non-committedly
Also, there have been studies on clostobol contamination and I'm not sure how you could research this case and not be aware of the De la Torre 2020 study, this is a very common talking point in this discussion
I guess you're going to ignore the dozens of athletes who were caught using these specific steroid from Italy as a PED and go straight to the one contentious contamination example.
Which still misses the point - even if accidental he's still responsible. He's got a whole team for this. Sharapova got the hammer. 🤷
Even with all of the benefit of the doubt - he should serve a ban. Otherwise why even bother asking what your physio is rubbing on your leg? Maybe you don't say so but you hope it's HGH 🙃
@@telquel7843 Naldi didn't rub a cream on Sinner. Naldi applied a spray to himself without Sinner's knowledge and then gave Sinner massages. How are you supposed to know to ask about something you don't even know they're using? Naldi was negligent, Sinner was not
And how exactly is the De la Torre study is a contentious example? Yes Clostobol is also often used for doping in Italy, it's easy to access. It also has scientifically been proven to be easily transmissible and hence get into people's systems that aren't doping, and once again it's in products readily used all over Italy, so contamination is a definite concern
And Sharapova is a totally different case. She was using a drug that was not banned yet. Then it got banned but she wasn't keeping up with the banned substances list and kept using it. That's absolutely nothing like this scenario at all
@@telquel7843 it was accidental and yes he is responsible, which is why he got points taken away and money stripped despite not being at fault. the presence of a banned substance warrants a sanction, despite no fault. he is the ceo of this team and took the fall for it. he didn't get suspended because they put in an immediate appeal with all the evidence claiming possible contamination and NOT ingestion. sharapova admitted that her case was a mistake on her part, she ingested the contaminant. claiming contamination and ingestion are two completely different cases with different outcomes.
what about simona halep? she claimed contamination from her coach patrick, however, she did not submit an immediate appeal to lift her suspension. She unfortunately did not have enough evidence or could provide the receipts to prove her case. that is the difference between these two cases. every case is different, thus they are handled differently and the resolution or sanction follows... :)
@@JohnPaulJones-e6o which brings us to the point where only grotesque drug failures are meaningful and we obviously aren't really trying to keep the sport clean.
The reality is that no professional team like this is going to allow Sinner to fail a test with anything but nano doses because that's how anabolic cycling works as well as masking.
If athletes will only ever be caught with trace amounts whether accidental or intentional - why even test them really? If it's that easy to at least open the window for a contamination claim.
You act as if all the evidence in detail is a matter of public record that you have verified. But that's not true.
I think the general public is largely naive to the amount of PED usage in professional sport but at the same time there is very little incentive to truly stop it. So now PED usage is just part of the meta game of the sport. And I don't love that and it tends to benefit those who already have the means to put into practice a sophisticated PED programme.
SIMPLEST ANSWER IS ALSO THE EASIEST - DO WHAT THEY DO IN PROFESSIONAL RACING:
If ONE racer accuses ANOTHER racer of "cheating"...
....
(wait for it)
...
... THEY BOTH GET INSPECTED.
SIMPLE AS THAT.
IF one PLAYER wishes to ACCUSE Sinner of "cheating", then that player simply has to SUBMIT TO THE SAME TEST AS THE PERSON HE ACCUSES.
You'd be AMAZED at how WELL this works in RACING !
-Mark Vogt | VOGTLAND OUTDOORS
The issue is not one of consistency, it is that there IS and basically ALWAYS WILL BE a problem of innocent players getting punished, but that's because of how much of the burden of the proof that they were not responsible for the substances found in their bodies weights on them. But how can you address this? It's difficult to argue against the need for the athlete to carry a substantial burden, otherwise people would be able to get away with anything if, after finding the substance, the antidoping agencies should also be responsible for proving how it entered the body.
Sinner was lucky that it became immediately apparent to his team who had contaminated him and how, and that they could provide evidence for how it happened. Had he not been able to do that, he would have been banned no matter what.
The only thing that can help these athletes is maniacal attention to details and basically avoiding any contact with anyone they can't fully trust.
It'll never be perfect but I can see a couple improvements thatbcan be made. Giving more than just 5 days to appeal could give athletes necesarry time to figure out where the contamination could come from
Also, less wealthy players could benefit from financial support for a legal team. Perhaos the PTPA could establish a fund for this
@@rickrivers2021 I agree completely. Both seem sensible proposals to me.
Well said. But imho the appealing process seems to be redundant with the independent tribunal, and could still lead to inconsistency when determining whether to accept or reject the appeal.
I am more inclined to get rid of suspension but have the player to go through more frequent tests during investigation. And the trial should have a hard deadline to prevent lengthy investigation. This way at least innocent players do not get harsh initial punishment such as suspension; a more serious punishment can be applied after the players are proven guilty.
All I know Jannik was innocent and cleared. Move on
Thank you.
Excellent video.
"The wickedness of some people does not need reasons, it only needs a pretext." Jannik hasn’t done nothing wrong. It is as simple as that !
The "controversy" is only kept alive by lazy keyboard warriors who can't be bothered to read, or can't understand, the ITIA report.
38 Italian Athletes in 4 years... that is NOT a coincidence
I get it might not be deemed enhancing levels, blah blah blah, but why is one nation repeatedly doing the same thing, has to be something in it
It's due to the Trofodermin being easily available over the counter in Italy and a few other countries, making accidental contaminations more likely.
What is missing in your analysis, which apparently seems detailed, are two aspects. The first is the half-life of clostebol and the second concerns the frequency with which tennis players are checked during the slams. For this reason you minimize the significance of the quantities of clostebol found. Surely, given the intensity of Sinner's tennis commitments, he was subjected to previous tests, not very far away in time, from which he resulted negative. Therefore, taking into account the half-life of clostebol and the quantities found in the blood, the scientists were able to affirm without a shadow of a doubt that it was contamination. Regarding negligence there can be different interpretations but not on the fact that it was doping or contamination.
Clostebol is legal in the medicine in Italy
Per onesta' intellettuale se dici che molti tennisti italiani erano positivi al Clostebol devi anche dire che il Clostebol è contenuto in tante pomate vendute nelle farmacie italiane
What a brilliantly researched advert!
I believe in Sinner‘s cleanness just intuitively based on his outer look of his character and because I also like him. Irrespective of this, I just can’t get rid of entertaining the idea of if that kind of news came out about Djokovic, what/how the western public reaction would have been.
I actually believe Sinner's story. This stuff was in verrrry tiny amounts in his system and was legal in Italy. And he has gained 0 muscle. Everyone needs to relax
True but not all steroids are taken to increase muscle mass.
The report said it was trace amounts. PPB. That is not enough to help a mosquito.
Look forward to your video about Serena Williams not operating with random testers.
The most balanced analysis I've heard about the Sinner saga. 👏 👌 👍 🙌
Congrats for your objectivity, this is honest journalism
I appreciate your careful analysis of the case. Still I think it leaves doors opens on things that are actually crystal clear. The “double standard” argument that is mentioned so much is actually inconsistent once you acknowledge the case od the other italian player ranked 400th or so. That’s it. an almost identical case solved in the same way and with the same times. It’s pointless comparinf it to cases such as the ones of Halep or Sharapova. For how much the case of Halep could have been unfair, it is actually annoying and unfair how Halep said in these days that there was a double standard. Same for all the ones that “advocate” for more equity in doping cases. They come out now that a case supposedly has gone the eay it was supposed to go, with no favoritism at all? They shouldn’t be such hypocretes and raise their voice when justice is unfair, not when it works, as in this case. Such a behaviour makes me think they try to find a way to attack an otherwise impossible to attack person (Sinner). It’s interesting how almost no one in the various discussions online or among players has mentioned the difficulties Sinner had to go through, hypotising him innocent. That alone should make realize how he has gone through much more than he deserved. Everyone talkinf about advantages he had and no one comsidering the disadvantages of such an unfair burden.
WADA revealed something recently. Yannick had been taking or swallowing a drug or dope which gives Sinner extra strength and stamina. As his country belongs to the NATO peace time lobbyist group which refused to disband after the fall of communism, his drugs intake allegations will likely be thrown out. I like Yannick Sinner though, like everyone in the western hemisphere. His team claims his team's mistaken administering of a performance enhancing drug has mistakenly made him the superman of tennis. I sometimes used to feel tired when I played in Marblehead. So I may try buy Sinner's physio';s recommended Trofodermin used accidentally by tennis player Sinner. Great information for casual tennis players with less energy after a work day.
interesting how his legal team was so quick to sort this out right, it's like they knew already was might be coming, lol, not fishy at all, no way.....
Great video!
Can you create one on the speculations that atp and wta will be going to merge soon and what things can potentially change on the tennis tour if that happens.
Possibly!
What? Where did you get this?
I have to say good work. The video approach the matter at the right level of details stating facts and some small clarification to better understand them. Everyone cam have his opinions on the matter but whitout any data they are quite useless.
Here are three reasons why the anti-doping process provides double standards, even if the decision-makers do not know the identity of the player whose case they are reviewing. 1) The rules on appealing the provisional suspension 2) The lack of standards and practices in setting a trial date. 3) The arbitrary nature of the decisions of the ITIA, Sports Resolutions, the Tribunal, and CAS. We can see all three at play when comparing Halep to Sinner.
I realize not everybody reading this is American so I'll preface this with the explanation that the following is based on the concept of due process, which historically is more central to Anglo-American government in preventing double standard. In particular, due process is enshrined in the Fifth & Fourteenth Amendments in the U.S. Constitution, however it has changed over time on its interpretation.
(1) The provisional suspension is what bans players from playing while waiting for the trial, AND the execution of the provisional suspension is also when the media is notified of the player's failed drug test. An appeal, if approved, prevents you from being banned until the trial, AND prevents media from being notified of your failed drug test. The problem is that the appeal window is only 10 days from the moment you are notified of your failed drug test. Researching the source of drug contamination in all your supplements, food, etc, takes several weeks, and even multiple months. Lab tests alone can take weeks to process. Therefore, a sincere investigation of factual evidence to find the source of contamination is not able to appeal the provisional suspension in 10 days. Conversely, an explanation of contamination that is void of scientific data or fact, can meet all legal requirements for innocence, and appeal within 10 days. This is the epitome of a rule which does not provide due process. Halep had all the scientific data for her innocence two months after being notified of her failed test. This is a quick turnaround time. Her trial was not for another nine months. During the entire nine month period, the evidence she presented was not allowed to be looked at to remove the provisional suspension, because she had not met the 10 day window for appeal. This resulted in a ban of eleven months even though no trial had yet taken place!! For Sinner, NO scientific data was presented in his appeal. They literally wrote an explanation that he was contaminated via the finger of his physio, and the appeal was granted. His appeal’s explanation, like Halep’s explanation, corresponded to the amount of the drug found in his system. Also, in each case, the amount in the body was shown to correspond to an amount that could not have helped performance. The 10 day window prevents due process, and is effectively a platform for a double standard. This window needs to be removed, and any appeals submitted prior to the trial need to be heard.
(2) There are no standards for how long the trial will be from the time you were notified of your failed drug test. One person may be found innocent in the trial, after having been provisionally suspended for four months, but another person may also be found innocent in the trial, after having been provisionally suspended a full year. Again, this is the epitome of a system without due process. This literally allows for completely arbitrary suspension lengths. Length of time to trial needs to be standardized for proper due process. Halep waited eleven months, while Sinner waited four. Even if all the reasons for the postponements in Halep’s case were due to some type of valid reason, a 7 month discrepancy is way too much and cannot be allowed. Reasonable deadlines must be set, and neither party should be allowed to indefinitely postpone.
(3) Over the years, the decisions of the ITIA, the Tribunal, Sports Resolution, and the Court of Arbitration for Sport have been shown to be arbitrary. The most glaring was after Halep had already been provisionally suspended in Oct. ‘22, and the ITIA decided to use data from blood samples taken before and after Halep’s nose surgery in Sept. ‘22, in order to cite Halep for an additional charge of irregularities on her Athlete Biological Passport. This is a high degree of incompetence by the ITIA to use samples from these dates to illustrate irregularities. The ABP data was thrown out by CAS when Halep won her appeal to the Tribunal guilty verdict. Halep’s surgery was stated in advance in the press for all to hear. Of all players getting surgeries that affect blood sample data, causing irregularities in their ABP, the ITIA suddenly decided that it would make sense to charge Halep with this irregularity during the waiting period for her trial to begin. This had people in an uproar, justifiably so. The decision to use these dates can easily be interpreted as worse than arbitrary, but actually predatory….AND at this point in May ‘23, the ITIA knew they were dealing with Halep, as opposed to the Tribunal dealing with an unknown subject later in the trial in Sept. ‘23.
The faulty ABP data greatly influenced the Tribunal’s decision to judge Halep for intentionally doping. Halep's explanation of taking a contaminated supplement was backed with purchase receipts, and scientific data from tests of the contaminated supplement, shown not to have benefited the player’s performance, and corresponded to the amounts shown in her body from her drug test results. Despite this, they arbitrarily decided against the scientific evidence provided by Team Halep’s research, even though they had no data of their own that refuted it. It’s likely the ABP charge affected their decision, since it was incorrectly being used to show Halep benefited from the drug in her system over a long period of time. The Tribunal claimed the amount in her system was greater than the supplement could cause, despite having no scientific data to back their assertion. This assertion was also reversed by CAS in Halep’s appeal, just as the ABP data. CAS used the scientific evidence provided by Halep’s team, admitting, “that Ms. Halep had established, on the balance of probabilities, that the Roxadustat entered her body through the consumption of a contaminated supplement” and was not intentional doping. They pronounced Halep to “bear no significant fault or negligence,” like Sinner.
Sinner's explanation of receiving a massage from a contaminated physiotherapist was not backed by anything but circumstantial evidence. Essentially, none of Sinner's story can actually be proven, and even the receipts of the product containing the drug were in question. In Sinner’s case, the decision was similar to a teacher in school deciding if a student’s excuse for missing class sounded believable or not. They simply decided they believed his story, having no reasons for why his story was any more believable than Halep’s or any other player’s excuse. Regardless of the ABP confusion, it’s a 100% arbitrary decision in which the Tribunal need not state precedents, evidence, or any data whatsoever used to describe the logic involved in their decision. This resulted in a decision of 4 years for Halep vs nothing for Sinner. Given that Halep provided scientific evidence and Sinner could not, this was essentially a backwards result from what you would expect.
Finally, even though CAS reduced Halep’s suspension from 4 years to 9 months, this still shows disparity compared to the decision awarded Sinner by the Tribunal. The ruling of nine months was not predicated on the drug providing Halep with any benefit, but rather, the fact that Halep dispensed the drug to herself - i.e. it was a pill she knowingly swallowed on her own volition. Although Halep was unaware of the drug being in the supplement, and the drug was not listed in the supplement’s ingredients, she gave herself the supplement, and is therefore liable for the drug entering her body. Sinner did not give himself the massage, and was not aware the drug was on the finger of his masseuse; therefore, he was not liable for the drug entering his body. This is void of any real meaning or substance, which is an attribute of arbitrary decisions. For proper due process, such a distinction would only make sense if the person actually was considered to have benefited from the drug, or judged to bear fault or negligence. Without due process, in essence, if Halep said she had not wanted to take the supplement, that her trainer put the supplement in his own smoothie, then accidentally gave Halep his smoothie instead of her smoothie, then IF CAS believed her story, Halep would not have been sentenced to serve nine months because she did not purposely put the supplement in her body, and was not aware it was put in her body by her trainer. Such decisions boil down to arbitrary feelings of the people judging. In each case, Halep and Sinner were judged to “bear no significant fault or negligence,” yet one sentence was nothing and the other was nine months. In either case, “bear no significant fault or negligence” must be treated the same. Discussions of who performed the literal action which put the drug in the body should not be entertained, unless the player does in fact bear significant fault and negligence, or the drug benefited their performance. Due process decisions must be made with uniformity, reference to precedents, and data to backup assertions.
Summary. When you combine the double standard from point (1) with point (2), you can literally have two players found innocent by the tribunal; yet, one serves no provisional suspension, and another serves a year provisional suspension. Combine this with point (3) and you can have what we saw with Halep vs Sinner: two players found to “bear no significant fault or negligence,” and the drug not resulting in performance benefit, yet one had no punishment and the other had a year and five months.
@@kevinbrianfahy , as for all of the comments I read from people saying this was a case of double standards, it seems you are FORCING the comparison between Halep and Sinner cases rather than just analyzing the two cases separately as they should.
1) Halep tested positive for a completely DIFFERENT substance than Sinner, hence with different possible implications.
2) Halep tests revealed a higher quantity of the substance compared to Sinner, also proved by her biological passport which presented suspect values.
3) These values proved - as Halep also confirmed - that she DIRECTLY took the substance (even if not on purpose), so it was not a case of cross-contamination from another source like in Sinner's case.
All of these points are the reason why it took much more a) for Halep to understand what happened b) for the trial to reach a verdict.
Even if Sinner did not present scientific reasons, he certainly provided sufficient proof that could support his explanation - such as the receipt of the spray that was bought; proof of the cut on Naldi's hand, and probably others.
In any case, regardless of Sinner's case, I really don't understand how people are continuously comparing totally different cases just because they are doping ones. it's not that one can only test positive for a single specific substance, and it would be completely non-sense to expect all cases to be judged in the same way and within the same time period!
I wouldn't mind taking a deeper dive into Jannik Sinner🥵🤤
😂me too ❤
The way everybody keeps aggressively defending Sinner is truly absurd.
it’s as absurd as the way some people are aggressively insulting him.
Suca
I like the guy and dont want to judge, but its hard not for me to root for the guy!
What you explained is their defense/arguments and asking us to take it at face value!
What if he was under and got caught, but the leaders are scared to admit the world #1 is caught - and the ATP boss is Italian!
Okay if he is not found guilty, why would they have him forfeit prize money/points? - this to me seems like some sort of "paid it off"
Sinner should fire the phd fitness trainer, How can someone be some negligent repeating mistakes and saying he didn't know..
As Taylor Fritz said, it stays between them.
All I can say, Tennis is Life for Sinner winner..
But it is over. The ruling was made and Sinner is allowed to continue to play. If it isn't over to people who wanted a guilty verdict, then it will then be over to them. How long can you discuss the same thing over and over and over?
should we point out thatthe chairman and CEO of the ATP are Italian
ATP are not doing the tests though, ITIA is. And the tests are anonymous and the tribunal is indipendent.
@@lalala123stella But the verdict / penalties are given by the ATP are they not??
Very well done
I'm not really interested in men's tennis, but after the Cincinnati story broke, I followed the case a bit.
Sinner was not declared innocent.
The jury only found it plausible that the doping finding could have been possible due to the course of events described by Sinner's lawyers.
And although this doesn't change Sinner's responsibility for the finding, thanks to very good (expensive) lawyers he was able to avoid a longer ban thanks to a technicality.
Whether you believe the story itself depends on you.
Thats just how law works. Innocent until proven guilty. It must be shown beyond a reasonable doubt. If you were on trial for something, you'd want the same treatment
The timing of the two tests and the quantity found makes the story more plausible than intentional doping. To take enough of the substance to enhance performance, the quantity would have to be higher. If it was originally higher but only caught on the tail end in the first test, it would not be in the second test at all due ti it being 8 days later. Either that or he would've had to take a fresh dose but then it would be found to be much higher
And Clostobol has been shown in scientific studies to be highly transmissable, so the explanation he provided makes sense
You cannot prove something that you didn’t do. You can only prove that the explanation you suggested is true. It is physically impossible for Sinner to prove that he didn’t actively take steroids, because what kind of proves you want? 24h videotape of his life in the past month? Then people would still be asking, well what happened when he was in the bathroom?
A further deep dive on Zverev maybe
Why did they keep it secret for 6 months? Why some players get suspended on day one of finding substance? Something is fishy 😢
- it was kept secret to protect player identity when the file is being reviewed by the experts so that they don't know the player's identity or rank to keep the judgement of the file objective.
- some players get suspended on day one of finding a substance due to the amount and the kind of substance. In Sinners case, his drug is primarily used as an over-the-counter antiseptic that just so happens to be a steroid with anabolic secondary effect. moreover, the amount in his system was so minute that it was found to have no enhancing effect on his performance. he also submitted an immediate appeal claiming contamination and provided receipts and evidence of the events leading up to the contamination and had his suspension lifted. if you don't submit an appeal in time, you get suspended, like Simona halep. if you ingest the drug or miss tests that also causes suspension differences.
someone should try this sinner trick off the court just to check the authencity of the rules. 😂
Great video! can you do a deep dive on alexei popyrin
I would be interested in knowing when the previous anti-doping test performed on Sinner was conducted, in order to answer the question: is it possible that that low percentage in the blood was the residue of a higher percentage?
Like all tennis players, he has been subjected to anti-doping tests in every tournament he plays, plus a certain number of surprise tests are carried out during the periods in which they do not play, another 7 or 8 per year. In practice, the tests are more than 20 per year, Sinner was tested before and after Indian Wells, that is, during the Australian Open and Miami.
The athletes also have a biological passport. Blood tests would have revealed anomalies if it had been a high-dose intake, anomalies not found in the tests.
This is why they have the secind test. He had near udentucal anount 8 days later. If he got caught in the tail end of the metabolization the first time it'd be gone by the second test.
The 'two tests' part is so misleading and dangerous by the journalists. Its not like his two positives were taken at two completely different points in the year, but 8 days apart, while being continuously exposed by the physio unknowingly. Both tests had basically the same minute amount. This indicates that he was under constant contamination within the 8 days of the two tests, and there wasn't any sort of decay of the compound during body metabolism. The amount was also shown to have no enhancing effect on his performance, and his file was reviewed by experts anonymously (they don't know player's identity or rank to protect objective resolution). If you dont trust the experts, idk what to tell you... His biological passport has been CLEAN all other times of his career. Players are tested several times throughout the year, and always at the major slams. The headline of all these articles discredits a lot of the things sinner has accomplished throughout his career smh... people need to learn to not just read headlines and to make informed opinions before passing judgment.
Why does no one (hardly) in the comments talk about Halep -- how her treatment for a similar (?) infraction was so much more harsh?
Someone explained it. Look for it
Well it wasnt similar
She's a victim of the problems in the systen Medvedev was pointing out. She didnt know how it got in her system in time, and so couldnt successfully appeal like Sinner did. It also was found at quantitues that could boost performance whereas Sinner's wasn't, which surely didnt help her case
Because most of the commentators are:
1. Sinner fans
2. Italians
3. People who will believe the sky is red if the media or the "experts" tell them so.
That's it.
@@MMerlyn91 gee man, your posts don't make sense. You're also somewhat racist. Take it easy and get a life! (And don't comment tennis when you have no clue about the sport)
@@distico Guy from the first two categories I've mentioned, Italian Sinner fan. Probably 3 applies as well. With every comment you're only proving me more right. Keep them coming lol. P.S.: And he threw the "racist" buzzword even though Sinner is white lol.
It’s a matter of applying the same rules and the same concept of justice to everyone equally.
i dont believe he was treated differently, its just the rules are so complex and that they never protect the player. like idt there is one standardized set of rules. there are different resolutions for different drugs, amount, context, claim...etc.
for example, the sinner and halep cases are different. sinner claimed contamination and the second he found out he tested positive, he figured out what compound from the test and traced it back to the spray. he had the evidence and receipts to show that it was plausible exposure and contamination by his physio. this tracked with the minute amount in his system that had no enhancing effect on his performance. by putting in an immediate appeal, the suspension was successfully lifted.
halep also claimed contamination, but she couldnt provide all the evidence and submit her appeal for the suspension on time. she also had a larger amount in her system and the compound was not the same, so the cases are quite different in terms of resolution. sinners compound is primarily an antiseptic with secondary anabolic side effects, whereas haleps drug primarly increases production of erythropoietin. by not putting in her appeal her case was locked and she got suspended. she also had abnormalities in her biological passport.
the takeaway is that sinner followed the rules, its just that the rules are tricky. perhaps he had a better legal advisory team and was able to be better informed on these rules bc they are so vague... who knows. but players like medvedev say the same. sinner followed the rules, they are just vague. the real scare is testing positive and not knowing where it came from and being able to prove that it was contamination like in haleps case. the system needs to improve, these things need to be standardized.
Why nobody talks about the fact that despite being innocent he was stripped of Indian Wells points and prize money? That is the actual scandal
its the game of cats and mice guys, wake up
Thank you ..
Regardless of how you feel this is very fishy , but we will never know . Doping in tennis is huge , as it is in all professional sports so it’s once again very fishy . Their professional they know exactly what’s going on and into their bodies .
Because of course you can prove doping is huge in tennis, you are not some random guy commenting for the sake of it...
This situation only took off from Sinner with zero benefits. With free mind, I am sure he would do even better in wimbledon a Rolland garros. He got sick with this stress and also missed Olimpics. Of course, for his rivals in sports, having a Sinner out of the field would be a great benefit.
'Course he was stressed, it's normal when you got caught. I've never had the shadow of a doubt about Sinner fairness, until I heard Cahill telling that ridiculous story. Why lying? Not once but twice. The first time about the whitdraw from the olympics, and now about the way he tested positive. Very disappointing.
Forza Jannik
People are so gullible.
"My favorite athlete would never!" 😂